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Author Topic: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA  (Read 41716 times)

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ChiefMcGilahuthuty

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #250 on: November 16, 2009, 06:23:14 pm »
what wasn't proven to the court, was that paper work
was even required in the first place. every single
single transfer doesn't require paperwork filed with the
AAA, as many on this board seem to think.

Offline Earl is my Hero!!

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #251 on: November 16, 2009, 07:04:14 pm »
Here is something I don't get. No law was broken so why is a judge even involved? Kids are not allowed to play for multiple reasons. This happens every season, sadly.

I can't wait for the next time a game is decided by a bad call and some school asks a judge to review a call. The officials are are a part of the AAA so this has opened a scary scenario. If this holds up, high school athletics will be changed forever; for the worse.

Stick to legal issues please. I didn't like Congress messing with the BCS and I don't like this either.


Do you not know the difference between a civil and a criminal matter?

Essentially, this was a contractual dispute between two parties. Lamar sued because they felt the AAA violated the terms of their contract.

Offline Coltfan2005

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #252 on: November 16, 2009, 07:13:19 pm »
All that and yet you thought an injunction was handed down allowing Lamar into the playoffs.

It's two guys with law degrees who are keeping hundreds of kids from playing their butts off in the playoffs. Might not want to brag on yourself too much on here.

Know how you save a drowning lawyer? Take your foot off his head.

I don't need to brag; I'm retired now and don't need any legal business.  I just presented my credentials with my opinion.  You presented your credentials--what you had read on here--with your opinion.

Courts don't make final decisions in cases until after going through a long process.  Defendants usually have 20 days to answer after a petition has been filed, then the plaintiffs have more time to reply, and then there's discovery, and the process goes on and on.  Finally, a hearing on the merits is held and a final decision is made.  If either side is unhappy with the decision, they can file an appeal.

In this case, Lamar asked for emergency temporary relief, and, after a hearing with testimony, the court temporarily enjoined (that's the verb for "injunction") the AAA from enforcing its decision to forfeit the Lamar victories and remove Lamar from the playoffs.  I guess any time a court rules on something it is a "decision," but the nature of the relief granted by the court in this case was that of a temporary injunction or, perhaps, a temporary restraining order, but I'm not about to tackle the distinctions between those two in this forum.

It's not lawyers who are keeping hundreds of kids from playing football.  It's the AAA officials who are refusing to do what the court ordered.   

Nope, I didn't give any credentials. Why? Because mine are just like yours in that they have absolutely nothing to do with the kids playing High School football. It's not all black and white, and I'm glad to see that the AAA put the the majority of the kids first. Unlike Lamar, and a couple of lawyers.
My credentials? I used to blow things up and kill people, but I quit because all the screaming and explosions were hard on the ears....plus it just wasn't as much fun as it used to be.

Know the difference between a dead dog in the road and a dead lawyer in the road? There's skid marks in front of the dog.

Offline sports_lover

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #253 on: November 16, 2009, 09:47:05 pm »
what wasn't proven to the court, was that paper work
was even required in the first place. every single
single transfer doesn't require paperwork filed with the
AAA, as many on this board seem to think.

It's not rocket science.  Forms are required.  The majority know it and abide by it.  Lamar didn't and got caught.  Now they have found a loophole to get what they want at the expense of others.  My opinion means absolutely nothing, I know.  I have no ill-will towards the kids, parents, and community of Lamar.  I am disappointed with the administration for not taking responsibility.  I am disheartened by the twist those in charge at Lamar have put on this situation.  It will have far-reaching effects.  When the dust settles and emotions aren't so high, I'm afraid folks will realize what has actually happened.

Offline GLion Alum

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #254 on: November 17, 2009, 12:18:07 am »
The AAA did what they should have, and I'm pleased.  In response to a couple of legitimate questions/comments directed to me since my last post, I'll spare everyone the original quotes and direct my answers to the posters:

1.  To attaboy--Yes, I am surprised that the handbook had not been challenged earlier.  I suspect that the primary reason for that was the AAA's apparent policy of announcing forfeitures at the end of the regular season and just a few days before post-season play begins, leaving little time to hire a lawyer, prepare the papers and find a judge who has opening in his or her schedule to conduct a hearing.  From what I've been able to piece together from what I've read about the Lamar case, Judge McCain began his hearing around 3:30 in the afternoon, and it ended around 7 p.m., which brings me to another point.  Apparently, the state media dropped the ball and did not have reporters present at the hearing.  The Democrat-Gazette's story consisted mainly of quotes from a AAA official.  Had the hearing itself been covered, I think much of the confusion we've seen could have been avoided.

2.  To ColtPride--When I was practicing law, I couldn't make it down an aisle at Wal-Mart without being stopped by someone who had a question he or she had always wanted to ask a lawyer.  I was impressed by the manner in which you conducted yourself on this board.  You, sir, are a credit to your professions.

3.  To the others--I think I've heard every joke about lawyers, and I think all of them are funny.   Anyone reading the posts on here this week has to realize that one has to have a sense of humor when one deals with stuff like this all the time.

I'm going to try my best to not post again on here, but I will predict what will happen.  The AAA will wait a while but will eventually do what some of us suggested--revise their rules and procedures.  They will do that for two reasons:

1.  The Pope County Circuit Court had jurisdiction of the Lamar case and was the proper venue.  State law does require that the State of Arkansas and its agencies be sued in Pulaski County, but the AAA is not a state agency.  It is primarily composed of public school districts, which are separate legal entities, and it is subject to being sued where any non-profit corporation can be sued.

2.  The Judge heard testimony from both sides and apparently devoted more time to the hearing than judges usually do for such expedited hearings. The findings of the judge re the rules and procedures appear to be supported by the evidence, and, in my opinion, an appeal would be futile and a waste of AAA money. 

With that, I'm outa' here, and good luck to all the playoff teams!


Offline Coltfan2005

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #255 on: November 17, 2009, 01:08:45 am »
<br />The AAA did what they should have, and I'm pleased.  In response to a couple of legitimate questions/comments directed to me since my last post, I'll spare everyone the original quotes and direct my answers to the posters:<br /><br />1.  To attaboy--Yes, I am surprised that the handbook had not been challenged earlier.  I suspect that the primary reason for that was the AAA's apparent policy of announcing forfeitures at the end of the regular season and just a few days before post-season play begins, leaving little time to hire a lawyer, prepare the papers and find a judge who has opening in his or her schedule to conduct a hearing.  From what I've been able to piece together from what I've read about the Lamar case, Judge McCain began his hearing around 3:30 in the afternoon, and it ended around 7 p.m., which brings me to another point.  Apparently, the state media dropped the ball and did not have reporters present at the hearing.  The Democrat-Gazette's story consisted mainly of quotes from a AAA official.  Had the hearing itself been covered, I think much of the confusion we've seen could have been avoided.<br /><br />2.  To ColtPride--When I was practicing law, I couldn't make it down an aisle at Wal-Mart without being stopped by someone who had a question he or she had always wanted to ask a lawyer.  I was impressed by the manner in which you conducted yourself on this board.  You, sir, are a credit to your professions.<br /><br />3.  To the others--I think I've heard every joke about lawyers, and I think all of them are funny.   Anyone reading the posts on here this week has to realize that one has to have a sense of humor when one deals with stuff like this all the time.<br /><br />I'm going to try my best to not post again on here, but I will predict what will happen.  The AAA will wait a while but will eventually do what some of us suggested--revise their rules and procedures.  They will do that for two reasons:<br /><br />1.  The Pope County Circuit Court had jurisdiction of the Lamar case and was the proper venue.  State law does require that the State of Arkansas and its agencies be sued in Pulaski County, but the AAA is not a state agency.  It is primarily composed of public school districts, which are separate legal entities, and it is subject to being sued where any non-profit corporation can be sued.<br /><br />2.  The Judge heard testimony from both sides and apparently devoted more time to the hearing than judges usually do for such expedited hearings. The findings of the judge re the rules and procedures appear to be supported by the evidence, and, in my opinion, an appeal would be futile and a waste of AAA money.  <br /><br />With that, I'm outa' here, and good luck to all the playoff teams!<br /><br /><br />

Right, because Judges never screw up and get over turned by higher courts?

Offline Busted

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #256 on: November 17, 2009, 05:54:10 am »
I heard that if Lamar were to make it all the way to the Championship Game (doubtful) and win, the AAA would probably strip them of the crown and give it to the runnerup.  Any truth in that?

Offline xtremewildcat

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #257 on: November 17, 2009, 06:22:28 am »
I heard that if Lamar were to make it all the way to the Championship Game (doubtful) and win, the AAA would probably strip them of the crown and give it to the runnerup.  Any truth in that?

They will try to. After they win in court. Which is unlikely, since Taylor has already admitted there is a problem with the rule by claiming the AAA will rewrite it(made that claim in the ADG this morning.

Why would a judge settle a dispute that is not a "legal" matter? Because it is a "civil" matter. Judges decide those matters all day.

I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT, it kills me to find myself agreeing with Earl on most of what he said.

It was only a matter of time this would happen. When you have a very few people interpreting rules and deligating authority on very "vague" rules, you always have legal action.

Good thing that will come of this, better rules and less reliance on one person to interpret those rules.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 09:14:51 am by xtremewildcat »

Offline Lions84

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #258 on: November 17, 2009, 09:04:28 am »
The AAA showed some Common sense for once.  I am amazed.

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #259 on: November 17, 2009, 09:15:59 am »
ADG article from 11/17/09 paper:  CLICK HERE

Offline Mike Bonds

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #260 on: November 17, 2009, 10:11:31 am »
I'm glad the playoffs are back on.  I think Lamar was in the wrong, but I'm glad that AAA was willing to allow the playoffs to continue while the legal dispute moves forward. 

Offline Earl is my Hero!!

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #261 on: November 17, 2009, 10:14:20 am »
Quote
Taylor said the organization may look into rewriting the AAA’s handbook to clarify some of the confusion that arose from the Lamar situation. The problem with that, Taylor said, is it is impossible to cover every possible eligibility situation.

-Lance Taylor

Bravo! The rulebook needs clarification and more precise language.

Yes, in regards to transfers it is impossible to address every situation. I would like to see questions of eligibility determined by a panel of board members instead of a unilateral decision of "Heir Director".

Quote
    That’s why there are instructions on the forward page of the handbook telling schools to contact the executive director in writing for “official interpretations” of eligibility rules, Taylor said. That was not done by Lamar, Taylor said.

No Lance, there are not instructions telling schools to do anything. The forward suggests they should, but it isn't required. That is exactly why the AAA lost this case.


Offline GuvHog

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #262 on: November 17, 2009, 12:44:59 pm »
Quote
Taylor said the organization may look into rewriting the AAA’s handbook to clarify some of the confusion that arose from the Lamar situation. The problem with that, Taylor said, is it is impossible to cover every possible eligibility situation.

-Lance Taylor

Bravo! The rulebook needs clarification and more precise language.

Yes, in regards to transfers it is impossible to address every situation. I would like to see questions of eligibility determined by a panel of board members instead of a unilateral decision of "Heir Director".

Quote
    That’s why there are instructions on the forward page of the handbook telling schools to contact the executive director in writing for “official interpretations” of eligibility rules, Taylor said. That was not done by Lamar, Taylor said.

No Lance, there are not instructions telling schools to do anything. The forward suggests they should, but it isn't required. That is exactly why the AAA lost this case.



Of coarse it's not required Earl, that's silly. The schools are given a choice. If they want to make sure they are interpreting the rules correctly they can contact the AAA executive director in writing. If they choose not to and are interpreting the rules incorrectly then get in trouble for it, it's the schools fault for being so IRRESPONSIBLE, not the AAA's.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 12:51:43 pm by GuvHog »

Offline Earl is my Hero!!

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #263 on: November 17, 2009, 01:05:50 pm »
Quote
Taylor said the organization may look into rewriting the AAA’s handbook to clarify some of the confusion that arose from the Lamar situation. The problem with that, Taylor said, is it is impossible to cover every possible eligibility situation.

-Lance Taylor

Bravo! The rulebook needs clarification and more precise language.

Yes, in regards to transfers it is impossible to address every situation. I would like to see questions of eligibility determined by a panel of board members instead of a unilateral decision of "Heir Director".

Quote
    That’s why there are instructions on the forward page of the handbook telling schools to contact the executive director in writing for “official interpretations” of eligibility rules, Taylor said. That was not done by Lamar, Taylor said.

No Lance, there are not instructions telling schools to do anything. The forward suggests they should, but it isn't required. That is exactly why the AAA lost this case.



Of coarse it's not required Earl, that's silly. The schools are given a choice. If they want to make sure they are interpreting the rules correctly they can contact the AAA executive director in writing. If they choose not to and are interpreting the rules incorrectly then get in trouble for it, it's the schools fault for being so IRRESPONSIBLE, not the AAA's.

You still don't get it.

Is it your anger over the postponement of the playoffs that completely clouds your ability to reason?

The whole point of rules are to let everyone know what is required.

Offline GuvHog

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #264 on: November 17, 2009, 01:26:46 pm »
Quote
Taylor said the organization may look into rewriting the AAA’s handbook to clarify some of the confusion that arose from the Lamar situation. The problem with that, Taylor said, is it is impossible to cover every possible eligibility situation.

-Lance Taylor

Bravo! The rulebook needs clarification and more precise language.

Yes, in regards to transfers it is impossible to address every situation. I would like to see questions of eligibility determined by a panel of board members instead of a unilateral decision of "Heir Director".

Quote
    That’s why there are instructions on the forward page of the handbook telling schools to contact the executive director in writing for “official interpretations” of eligibility rules, Taylor said. That was not done by Lamar, Taylor said.

No Lance, there are not instructions telling schools to do anything. The forward suggests they should, but it isn't required. That is exactly why the AAA lost this case.



Of coarse it's not required Earl, that's silly. The schools are given a choice. If they want to make sure they are interpreting the rules correctly they can contact the AAA executive director in writing. If they choose not to and are interpreting the rules incorrectly then get in trouble for it, it's the schools fault for being so IRRESPONSIBLE, not the AAA's.

You still don't get it.

Is it your anger over the postponement of the playoffs that completely clouds your ability to reason?

The whole point of rules are to let everyone know what is required.

Earl the High School Superintendents, Principals, and head coaches are not mindless sheep that have to be led around by the nose by the AAA, they are educated and have minds of their own. Even I have enough God given sense to enquire to see if I'm interpreting a rule correctly and I'm not even a college graduate (although I did attend for 2 years)!!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 01:49:08 pm by GuvHog »

Offline Adam

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #265 on: November 17, 2009, 01:35:40 pm »
The teams I feel sorry for are the ones who earned a bye and now they have 2 weeks off without playing.  That can be against them

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #266 on: November 17, 2009, 02:02:31 pm »
Is Lance Taylor elected or appointed?

Offline Earl is my Hero!!

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #267 on: November 17, 2009, 02:16:08 pm »
Is Lance Taylor elected or appointed?

He serves at the behest of the Board of Directors.

Offline GuvHog

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Re: 3A PLAYOFFS SUSPENDED INDEFINITELY..PER AAA
« Reply #268 on: November 17, 2009, 08:31:49 pm »
Quote
Taylor said the organization may look into rewriting the AAA’s handbook to clarify some of the confusion that arose from the Lamar situation. The problem with that, Taylor said, is it is impossible to cover every possible eligibility situation.

-Lance Taylor

Bravo! The rulebook needs clarification and more precise language.

Yes, in regards to transfers it is impossible to address every situation. I would like to see questions of eligibility determined by a panel of board members instead of a unilateral decision of "Heir Director".

Quote
    That’s why there are instructions on the forward page of the handbook telling schools to contact the executive director in writing for “official interpretations” of eligibility rules, Taylor said. That was not done by Lamar, Taylor said.

No Lance, there are not instructions telling schools to do anything. The forward suggests they should, but it isn't required. That is exactly why the AAA lost this case.



Of coarse it's not required Earl, that's silly. The schools are given a choice. If they want to make sure they are interpreting the rules correctly they can contact the AAA executive director in writing. If they choose not to and are interpreting the rules incorrectly then get in trouble for it, it's the schools fault for being so IRRESPONSIBLE, not the AAA's.

You still don't get it.

Is it your anger over the postponement of the playoffs that completely clouds your ability to reason?

The whole point of rules are to let everyone know what is required.

Earl the High School Superintendents, Principals, and head coaches are not mindless sheep that have to be led around by the nose by the AAA, they are educated and have minds of their own. Even I have enough God given sense to enquire to see if I'm interpreting a rule correctly and I'm not even a college graduate (although I did attend for 2 years)!!

'Cause we all know that hundreds of thousands of dollars have never been spent to litigate the meaning of a word or phrase. Happens all the time. Federal and state common law are replete with such cases.

Here's the other thing on the term "bona fide." It matters not if every Superintendent, principal, AD, and coach in the state could tell you exactly what "bona fide" means. Doesn't amount to a hill of beans, because the only thing that matters is the written word within the four corners of the AAA handbook.

That happens to be the law. You don't have to agree with it, but that doesn't make it any less the law.       

A handbook isn't law but a Rule book is. Rules are rules wether they're
in a handbook or on a website. Just because something is on a web site and not in a handbook doesn't mean it's not a rule.

 

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