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Author Topic: Coaching Endorsement  (Read 11985 times)

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Offline Justafan42

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Coaching Endorsement
« on: March 19, 2008, 10:41:11 pm »
The AAA is voting this August to do away with the requirement.

Whatcha think Coaches?

Offline Made

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 01:26:15 pm »
I think it is a wonderful idea, I know a lot of teachers who are teaching various subjects who would love to coach, but do not have the time to go get a coaching endorsement.  The only classes that you have to have for a coaching endorsement are:

strength training and conditioning, but you will learn several ways to do the same lift once you start coaching(ie. bench close, wide, push straight up, push over your eyes.)  And conditioning, we all know just means get your heart rate up. 

Basic physiology of activity, half of the coaches in the state can't even spell physiology let alone understand what it means.  Coaches coach what they know, they don't think outside their own little box.

Rules and Officiating: Why even take this class?...they give a clinic on this every year that coaches have to attend.

Concepts of Athletic Training:  Should the school not have to hire an athletic trainer>?  If a kid gets his ankle taped and he breaks hits leg at that point would the coach be liable?..would their not be some sort of debate as to if it could have been prevented?  Also if a kid leaves ice on their leg to the point of frost bite, whose fault is it?..the coach who told the kid to ice it, or the kid who listened to the coach who was supposed to be looking out for him.

Organization and Administration of Interscholastic Athletics:  Most school teachers have to organize thier classroom along with everything else they do with their jobs.  Why make them take another class on organization.

Other things I think they should do away with the requirement to have a license to teach building towers or tosses in cheerleading.  Do away with professional development for teachers, why on earth would teachers who went to classes for 4-7 years need more training on the new and current procedures?  Trees what are they good for anyways?  Making oxygen?  Most of our oxygen comes from the seaweed in the ocean anyhow.  Blonds, ok lets not get rid of blonds.  Sorry getting carried away.

Offline Justafan42

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 04:45:02 pm »
What school has this curriculum.

Offline AlongForTheRide

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 12:11:55 pm »
All major colleges offer these classes.  A coaching endorsement should be used because at least we know the coaches have had the training with the classes. 

Offline Justafan42

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 06:13:55 pm »
The reason I asked my question was because it would be nice to have to take those courses.

Try Anatomical, and Mechanical Kinesiology, Anatomy, Exercise Physiology, Principles of KPED, Motor Development, Sports Psychology, Care and Prevention of Ex and sport injuries, Fitness Assesment & Ex Precription, and an easy Coaching class. Not to mention all the prerequistes that you need to take these classes.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 12:35:34 pm »
I'd like to know if this is true or not. This is the reason I left Arkansas and came to Texas to coach. Texas does not require a "coaching endorsement". If you are a certified teacher and are employed by a district you may coach there.

Offline Justafan42

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 01:41:48 pm »
It's true. Just call the AAA and ask to confirm. They do say not to count on it to pass.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 03:48:03 pm »
Then why propose it in the first place?

philgoodallday

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2008, 06:14:14 pm »
I actually learned a lot of valuable information from classes like Kineisiology and Athletic Training.

And no, you can hire a trainer, but he/she won't be there all of the time.  A coach should learn the proper way to tape an ankle or whatever.  That was part of my final, and was taught by a guy who was a head trainer at a major D1 program.  Many, many people do it wrong on a daily basis. 

Some of the electives are bogus.  I took track (as an independent study) and I still know nothing about track--nor do I have a desire to.  I took basketball, which didn't teach me anything that I didn't already know.  I had fun playing basketball every night for 4 weeks though!

I also think all coaches should have to be certified in CPR.  A trainer isn't always present at practices, and most schools can't even afford a trainer.

There should be some additional requirements.  Not every teacher is qualified to be a coach.  In fact, I'm glad they've added requirements that used to be non-existent.  Most coaches over 40 never took the classes that are required now, and who knows what kid might have need the lessons they could have learned.  I went into the program right before they upped the necessary requirements to 18 hours.  I'd gladly retake those classes, even though the gist of Strength Training was spent learning science crap in the classroom, which didn't translate directly to the weight room.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 05:21:05 pm »
Do coaches in Arkansas not have to be CPR certified? I am, also trained in ADE.

philgoodallday

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 11:55:50 am »
They don't have to be yet, but that might be changing.  They should be.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2008, 01:39:06 pm »
They don't have to be yet, but that might be changing.  They should be.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I agree that they should be.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2008, 08:06:14 am »
Our district requires all coaches to be CPR certified and have a refresher course each year.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 04:47:23 pm »
So it's not being voted on until August? If passed, any idea when it would take affect? Immediately?

Has anyone heard anything else about this?

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 01:35:51 pm »
This type of fundamental change would require a vote of all the members, which is done in late July annually.  Even if passed, it would probably be the 2009-2010 school year before it would take affect, since most of the coaches/teachers would have already been hired by then.

IMHO, not only do I beleive it won't pass, I think you will see the opposite.  I think more and more sports will require the coaching endorsement as they continue to increase in popularity and participation.  The liability of a "untrained" person out there is just too much.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 01:47:08 pm »
Define "untrained", please.

I was told by ADE that I wouldn't pass the Praxis II: Physical Education Content Knowledge without those classes and I did.

This isn't a jab at coaches who are "endorsed" but an endorsement doesn't necessarily make you a good coach.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2008, 08:20:26 am »
Coaches are educators.  To do an effective job, you must have training.  There is a lot more to coaching than X's and O's.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2008, 10:23:21 am »
Coaches are educators.  To do an effective job, you must have training.  There is a lot more to coaching than X's and O's.

Do you mean "educators" as in classroom teachers? If so, most coaches in Arkansas are educators.

I guess I'm confused, and a little offended, that you believe that I can not be an effective coach because I haven't had a few classes. I have had several people tell me that the classes they took through an ALP to obtain an endorsement were a waste of time and money.

 I hold a B.A., a teaching certificate in two states, and I am a coach at a 5A school, and in my opinion am an effective coach.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2008, 11:17:19 am »
"I have had several people tell me that the classes they took through an ALP to obtain an endorsement were a waste of time and money."

People routinely get out of a course in direct proportion to what they put into it.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2008, 11:30:49 am »
I agree, but I also value the opinion of these particular individuals.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I just don't understand the principle behind the endorsement.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 03:20:45 pm »
What's the purpose behind any endorsement?  It shows that you have been afforded the opportunity to hear others who have been there before and/or studied the subject to share with you, through various ways including testing, an overview of the subject.  It insures your employer that you have spent at least a minimal amount of time studying your craft through a recognized program.  It tells the parent that this is not just some stooge of the street they are trusting their kids to, but a trained professional educator who has taken the time to learn about the sport he/she is teaching my child and at least has some idea of how to communicate it to them and to keep them safe while learning it.  It tells the students that this guy should know how to take care of me if there is something that goes wrong. It tells the community that your school district or school is concerned enough about  the welfare of their children that they only hire persons who have been appropriately trained to recognized minimum standards.

Are there bad doctors, lawyers, police officers, nurses, nutritionists, plumbers, truck drivers, etc. that have a wall full of endorsements or numberous codes on their licenses?  Absolutely.  But would you go to a doctor that didn't have the proper degrees, or a lawyer that had not passed the bar?  How about hiring a bus driver that doesn't have an air brakes endorsement on his CDL and drives an air brakes equipped bus with your kids on it?

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 10:35:57 pm »
We're talking coaching here, not medicine, legal counsel, etc. Is the daily interaction with kids important? Absolutely. However, teaching and coaching is not something you learn in a classroom.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this and that's fine. If you are a coach, my hat is off to you. I wish I had the endorsement so I could get a coaching job in Arkansas. However, I can't help but wonder though if the reason some people seem to be so against the possibility of the endorsement requirements being tossed is because they are coaches who don't want there to be more competition for jobs. Maybe I'm wrong.

And, if a coaching endorsement is so vital why aren't college coaches required to have one? How about NFL coaches? Mike Leach has a law degree. He didn't major in education or kinesiology but I'd say he's a heck of a coach. Urban Meyer has a degree in psychology, Bob Stoops in Marketing.

I'm not saying the classes are not beneficial, and I hope you don't think that, but I am saying that I feel the requirement of the classes is a little much.

By the way, I have a CDL with an air brakes endorsement.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 07:14:55 am by McKnz »

oldguy_21

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2008, 09:12:39 am »
The AAA is voting to do away with the endorsment this summer.  One administrator I know is saying that it will pass.  What are other people hearing about this vote?

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 09:38:30 am »
The consensus I am hearing is "no".

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 10:25:17 am »
Here's a question for you guys. It was mentioned on another board.

Do you feel that the smaller districts would greatly benefit from the endorsement being tossed? Let's say they were in need of a math teacher and a coach. Let's also say they don't get any applications from math teachers who also have a coaching endorsement. Currently the district would need to hire both a math teacher and someone who has a coaching endorsement. That's two salaries. If the endorsement requirements are repealed, the district could find a math teacher who could/would/desired to coach a sport which requires an edorsement.

One more question:

Why do some sports require an endorsement while others do not? If I remember correctly, you need an endorsement for football, basketball, track and one is not needed for baseball, golf, volleyball. Why?

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 01:17:40 pm »
It's an old law and doesn't make much sense, but back in the 60's football, basketball and track were the only things offered by most schools.  As sports were added, the existing staffs didn't have endorsements for baseball, softball, volleyball, soccer, etc., so the school administrators didn't require it.  However, beginning in about 1995, all of these sports did require a seminar course certificate of coaching and first aid, both of which now are offered on-line.  One reason was because many schools, including the top ones in size, started those prorgams with mommies and daddies coaching, because there was no money to fund the programs.  They also require the same courses of registered volunteers that may not have taken the courses at the college level.

In your first scenario, in mosts cases, there are enough people already on staff to find someone with a coaching endorsement to take the football job, so if need be they can hire just a math teacher and attache the footbal stipend to another position.  It happens all the time.  The combined salaries and stipends would still equal the same amount.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 02:07:05 pm »
That makes sense. Still a little goofy though.

With the first scenario, what if there is no one available with a coaching endorsement? For instance, the all the football coaches are involved in other sports. The defensive coordinator is also the assistant bball coach, the OC is the head baseball coach. At some smaller schools three coaches might be all they have. When I was a junior we only had 3 coaches. Albeit, that was 11 yrs ago.

I understand your point but I believe a lot of small schools would benefit from not having an endorsement.

Offline Justafan42

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2008, 10:00:45 pm »
I started this thread, and have enjoyed the discussion. But, I am going to throw my 2 cents into the conversation.
I'm currently finishing the required classes at UCA to gain my coaching endorsement.

McKnz, I respect the fact that you passed the Praxis II without taking any courses, but that just means you have been keeping up with what's new in sports. It's been several years since I received my useless BS in PE, and things have changed so much. I've stayed around by officiating and selling sporting goods to schools and there are people out there that are stuck in the past. Athletics has changed many, many ways in just the last few years that I don't think the normal teacher is going to be up on everything. I'm not talking about X's and O's, I'm talking about training, psychology(Urban Meyer),
policies.

Yes, I don't want this to pass, because I DON'T want the extra competition. It's not that I think someone is a better coach or a better teacher. It's that a core subject teacher that has always wanted to see what coaching was like will dominate job placements.

I also think that Head coaches will start to be told WHO is going to be their asst. coaches due to the subject that the district needs. Then the team losses and the HC is let go, the core teacher stays put for the next HC.

Again, I'm new to this whole thing, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
 

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2008, 07:15:11 am »
Thanks for the respect. So, I guess another question for some of you is:

Should an individual be able to test out by passing the Praxis II?

You are correct, Justafan, I have kept up with sports, training, etc. So, if I am able to pass this test without the classes, shouldn't I be allowed to obtain the endorsement?

A lot of districts (smaller ones most likely) are told who to hire for assistants anyway. Usually, at least in my experience, it's based on teaching need first. I'm sure the head coach has some say in it but, at the same time, the district's hands are tied when they can't afford to hire a coach AND a teacher.

Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, this whole situation just frustrates me.

oldguy_21

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2008, 08:33:07 am »
You can test out for everything else to add a new area to your license so why not coaching?  That is the question that a lot of people should be asking.  If you need the courses to pass the test then that's fine...Take the courses.  However, if a man or woman knows enough to pass the test, why is that not good enough in this situation.  If a teacher graduated with a social studies degree but passes the english praxis II they can immediatly add that to their license.  Why don't they have to go back to school and take 27 hours of coursework?

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2008, 10:05:32 am »
I agree 100% and that was my point. I didn't take the classes and I passed the test.

philgoodallday

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2008, 10:23:41 am »
Big schools won't let it pass.  Big schools always dominate AAA legislation.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2008, 10:36:19 am »
But there are way more smaller schools so you would think that their administration would maybe get behind it and push it through. Maybe that's wishful thinking.

Offline SteelHog

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2008, 07:38:58 pm »
Here is the problem I have with the whole deal is how difficult it is for someone that is already a teacher to get an endorsement while they work. I'm on an ALP, and I passed the praxis II on the first try before I took any classes. The only time I can take classes is over the summer, and its difficult to take the classes u need because they don't offer them. I'm working on mine at UA-FAY. The part that really made me mad was how I missed the cut off for the old requirements by a semester. UA-FAY coaching endorsement went from 6 hrs to 24 hrs May 2007. Thats a big jump.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2008, 08:47:02 pm »
I hear you man. Passed the Praxis II my first try without any classes as well. I think the jump in the required classes was a statewide move to get everyone aligned. Not sure though.

I sent you a PM.

Offline rbhs8990

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2008, 09:08:00 pm »
It is next to impossible for a certified teacher to get the coaching endorsement at some schools.  At UCA, you can't get the "coaching endorsement" because there are 2 classes that are only offered during the fall and spring semesters....so if you teach full time, you can't do it.  The only way to do it at UCA is get your masters in kinesiology and it will come with a coaching endorsement, but it's not good until you complete the masters.  Makes it tough, because of more hours and more money

Offline SteelHog

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2008, 09:50:51 pm »
Honestly, it seems like they didn't think about certfied teachers that wanted to coach when they changed the hours to 21-27 hrs. The colleges benefited the most from the tuition that would be paid just to get an endorsement . If they don't change the requirements, they need to come up with a way to make it easier for certified teachers to get endorsed.

Offline Justafan42

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2008, 07:21:08 am »
From what I understand about UA-Fay hours going up is, they did have 6 hrs.

They had people run up there and take them thinking they had satified the requirement only to find out that those 6 hrs had about 12 hours of pre-req's.

So they had to go back and take those.

UCA's program is tough. If you make it through it, you will be a very knowledgable, prepared, broke, coach, welling to take anything to start paying off the loans. UCA Coaches are not putting their athletes in the program due to the work load that is put on the students. And it's going to get tougher.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2008, 08:48:48 am »
I will go on record as saying one thing I oppose - the ADE seems to be working in reverse.  They are putting more and more on certified teachers, while softening the requirements for non-certified persons to become teachers. 

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2008, 09:48:59 am »
Do you mean the requirements for college students pursuing an education degree or for degree holding individuals who enter the NTLP?

oldguy_21

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2008, 10:46:02 am »
I will go on record as saying one thing I oppose - the ADE seems to be working in reverse.  They are putting more and more on certified teachers, while softening the requirements for non-certified persons to become teachers. 
That is not correct.  The requirements for non-certified teachers to go through the NTL program are getting tougher each year.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2008, 11:21:36 am »
I'm saying the traditional teacher licenses are having more and more requirments placed on them as opposed to the non-traditional.  Granted, all requirements are being pushed up, and there were some new regulations just issued by the ADE for non-traditional licenses, but the coursework required of experienced, traditionally licensed teachers to expand and/or keep their certifications are becoming more stringent as opposed to their non-traditional counterparts.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2008, 12:59:06 pm »
I don't follow you on this one

the coursework required of experienced, traditionally licensed teachers to expand and/or keep their certifications are becoming more stringent as opposed to their non-traditional counterparts.

I was licensed through the NTL. I now hold a standard certification. Now that I am a teacher of record, the requirements for me to keep my job at my district are the same as someone who was traditionally certified. I have to attend the same amount of teacher-choice hours, workshops, continuing educations, seminars, etc.

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2008, 01:09:46 pm »
If you had been following it for 20 years like some of us you would be aware of what I was talking about.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2008, 02:13:40 pm »
20 years ago I was 7, what's your point? Didn't you tell me you never taught in a classroom?

parpar

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2008, 04:06:31 pm »
I'm on the business side, and am responsible for keeping up with the personnel issues.  My point is not to be negative about anything.  Over the course of the last 20 years when the notion of NTL starting picking up steam because of the teacher shortage, there were ADE regulations that impacted teachers who went through the college certified programs that were not required of NTL's.   As an example, one of the many concerns I hear about from principals is the lack of classroom management skills that many, not all, NTL's have.  Many of the principals do not blame this on the NLT themselves, rather, on the lack of practice teaching, the lack of courses in measurement and evaluation, and the lack of mentoring PRIOR to being hired, all required in the traditional block.

I don't know you and I am not questioning your skills as a teacher, classroom manager, coach or anything else.  I am making broad general statements from 20+ years of working closely with school administrators on a daily basis and a daily review of all new ADE regulations as they are issued on their website.  This is one man's opinion, that's all it is.  Take it for what it is worth.

Offline SteelHog

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2008, 05:52:17 pm »
I emailed the AAA today to see what they have to do with coaching endorsements and they said they had nothing to do with them. ADE was over all of that. How will the vote help us, even if there is one?

There is a loophole at UA-FAY. If u have taken first aid before May 2007, then u can go off of the old requirements which are 6 hrs and passing praxis II score with a current teaching license.

Offline McKnz

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2008, 10:07:22 pm »
I'm on the business side, and am responsible for keeping up with the personnel issues.  My point is not to be negative about anything.  Over the course of the last 20 years when the notion of NTL starting picking up steam because of the teacher shortage, there were ADE regulations that impacted teachers who went through the college certified programs that were not required of NTL's.   As an example, one of the many concerns I hear about from principals is the lack of classroom management skills that many, not all, NTL's have.  Many of the principals do not blame this on the NLT themselves, rather, on the lack of practice teaching, the lack of courses in measurement and evaluation, and the lack of mentoring PRIOR to being hired, all required in the traditional block.

I don't know you and I am not questioning your skills as a teacher, classroom manager, coach or anything else.  I am making broad general statements from 20+ years of working closely with school administrators on a daily basis and a daily review of all new ADE regulations as they are issued on their website.  This is one man's opinion, that's all it is.  Take it for what it is worth.

I understand. I guess what I should've said was, what can you tell us that we've missed from the past 20 years? I'm serious. I'd like to know. This is my 3rd year of teaching and I thought that everyone was on the same level as far as CEs were concerned.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 10:38:14 am by Possum Jenkins »

Offline Justafan42

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2008, 07:26:39 am »
I talked with the ADE about a week and 1/2 ago and they had just heard about the vote. I've known about it around 2 months. Someone is out of the loop.

philgoodallday

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Re: Coaching Endorsement
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2008, 08:38:04 am »
Someone from ADE out of the loop?

Come on Justafan, you don't expect us to believe that!



(...as I continue laughing hysterically at my own sarcasm.)

 

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