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Author Topic: Shot Clock Gaining Steam  (Read 5152 times)

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Offline B.G.

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Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« on: June 07, 2018, 04:13:09 pm »
The AAA has authorized usage of a 35 sec shot clock in n/c tournaments this season.  Already at least 2 I can think of have done it in recent years.

I know there is a big push coming from some schools.

I'm connected to the Bulldog Classic held in Fayetteville the first week of December and the plan is to have the shot clocks installed in both full size gyms for this event.  This tournament is 8 boys and 8 girls teams.

Discussion stage has reached action stage in some cases.  Downside always involves cost for equipment and subsequently a solely dedicated clock operator


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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 10:15:00 pm »
This is highly necessary in the long-term, but immediate resistance wouldn't surprise me.

I'm wondering how many smaller-scale tourneys will be canceled just to avoid installation...?

Offline MomaLion

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2018, 12:04:23 am »
Schools aren't required to use shot clocks for these N/C tournys right?  To me it just means that schools that wish to use them are being given the go ahead.

Offline B.G.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2018, 01:17:35 pm »
Optional in n/c tournaments.

A chance to test it so to speak.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2018, 11:38:12 am »

This is highly necessary in the long-term
, but immediate resistance wouldn't surprise me.

I'm wondering how many smaller-scale tourneys will be canceled just to avoid installation...?

Why?


Offline Rayburn

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am »
Why?
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.

Offline Informant

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 12:05:47 pm »
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.

YES YES YES YES!  Very well said! Couldn't agree more!

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 01:03:10 pm »
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.


So it's bad for them to play at the same rules the levels above them play? And other states with far superior high school basketball play with a shot clock.... Welcome to 2018 my friend.

Offline Informant

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 03:13:13 pm »

So it's bad for them to play at the same rules the levels above them play? And other states with far superior high school basketball play with a shot clock.... Welcome to 2018 my friend.

With this logic.....why don't we have 3rd graders play with a shot clock?

Why doesn't 8 year old baseball play with 90' bases and 60' mound?

Pee Wee football should play on a regulation football field?

Schools should go to an 8 to 5, Monday through Friday schedule.  Make lunch be $8-10. Everyday.  I means that's what level they are headed to right?

And what other states are you talking about? New York? California? Texas?  States with 5 times the people we have in Arkansas.  They don't have superior basketball.  They have thousands more athletes to choose from. 

Offline Moonshiner

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2018, 10:14:21 pm »
With this logic.....why don't we have 3rd graders play with a shot clock?

Why doesn't 8 year old baseball play with 90' bases and 60' mound?

Pee Wee football should play on a regulation football field?

Schools should go to an 8 to 5, Monday through Friday schedule.  Make lunch be $8-10. Everyday.  I means that's what level they are headed to right?

And what other states are you talking about? New York? California? Texas?  States with 5 times the people we have in Arkansas.  They don't have superior basketball.  They have thousands more athletes to choose from.

+ a bazillion!!!

Offline WPWells

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 08:15:28 am »
Sorry, I didn't realize that in football and baseball high school played with different rules than college or pro ::)

Offline footballfan-tastic

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 02:41:57 pm »
Shot clock is for fans.  It is not a rule that inherently improves the game because if forces every team to hurry their pace.  This is something every team could already do if they choose.  So it really take away from the game.

Offline B.G.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 03:18:52 pm »
I think you'll see more coaches want it than not.

Offline footballfan-tastic

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 03:19:40 pm »
I just don't see the need, any coach who wants to play up tempo already has that ability.

Offline B.G.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2018, 03:22:33 pm »
I believe you will see this gradually take over as the norm.

Offline Informant

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 04:11:31 pm »
I believe you will see this gradually take over as the norm.
.

Because AAA is all about the money and fans, not about developing and learning.

Offline B.G.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 09:03:09 pm »
.

Because AAA is all about the money and fans, not about developing and learning.

A little bit ridiculous to make that statement.  ::)

The AAA won't decide this.  Each school and admin will vote and determine for themselves.

Offline Moonshiner

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2018, 09:55:31 pm »
I think you'll see more coaches want it than not.

I disagree.

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2018, 10:02:13 pm »
.

Because AAA is all about the money and fans, not about developing and learning.


The AAA is about being in the 21st century apparently.... And now schools will learn they have to shoot the ball in 35 seconds. I did not think it was that difficult to get a shot off after 15 to 20 or so passes cause if you can't get an open look after that many passes your offensive sets must stink as a coach.

Offline Informant

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 09:13:07 am »
A little bit ridiculous to make that statement.  ::)

The AAA won't decide this.  Each school and admin will vote and determine for themselves.

Is the AAA not the governing body for all interscholastic activities in Arkansas? Do they not enforce rules put in place by a board of officials?  If they are not going to enforce the shot clock, the why would schools even listen to the idea?

If AAA is not going to rule on this matter, then why are we evening talking about it?  There is zero reason to have a shot clock tournament ever, if at some point the AAA isn't going to implement these rules into a regional or state tournament. 



Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 02:11:33 pm »
Is the AAA not the governing body for all interscholastic activities in Arkansas? Do they not enforce rules put in place by a board of officials?  If they are not going to enforce the shot clock, the why would schools even listen to the idea?

If AAA is not going to rule on this matter, then why are we evening talking about it?  There is zero reason to have a shot clock tournament ever, if at some point the AAA isn't going to implement these rules into a regional or state tournament.




It will be used in every game in Arkansas soon.... It's a tough, reality pill to swallow for some. There will be lazy coaches who actually have to teach their kids better offensive skills now.

Offline Moonshiner

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2018, 04:50:20 pm »

It will be used in every game in Arkansas soon.... It's a tough, reality pill to swallow for some. There will be lazy coaches who actually have to teach their kids better offensive skills now.

Wow.  Not sure why you're calling them lazy.  Dean Smith was anything but lazy, and he'd spread the floor in a heartbeat.  I'm not a fan of stalling, but it is a strategy, and it's sometimes effective.  A team can't stall if they are behind, so maybe that coach is lazy too?  Maybe he should be teaching his players better skills.
I believe we will have it statewide soon, and I'm also entitled to my opinion.  I think it's a mistake. 

Offline footballfan-tastic

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2018, 10:03:54 pm »
Doesn't matter if you are speeding up the tempo or slowing it down, you have to do the same things: ball handling, passing, eventually shooting. A faster game means you just do one thing at a faster pace, shoot.

Offline Informant

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2018, 01:29:35 pm »

It will be used in every game in Arkansas soon.... It's a tough, reality pill to swallow for some. There will be lazy coaches who actually have to teach their kids better offensive skills now.

I think your wrong.  I don't think it will be soon.  I think it'll another 5-8 years before we use shot clocks in late February and March.  The only offensive skill that will be taught more is how to shoot it quickly without proper awareness or proper form. 

This is and will be a move to appease fans, such as yourself, who see the game as boring.  Not to help our student athletes become better basketball players.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2018, 01:50:42 pm »
The only offensive skill that will be taught more is how to shoot it quickly without proper awareness or proper form. 

LOL. You think implementing a shot clock means kids will be running down and chunking it up from the cheap seats? We ran an uptempo offense when I was in high school and no one sacrificed form for efficiency. And that was 30 years ago...if anything, shooting skills overall have gotten WORSE, not better since then IMO.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2018, 02:33:25 pm »
LOL. You think implementing a shot clock means kids will be running down and chunking it up from the cheap seats? We ran an uptempo offense when I was in high school and no one sacrificed form for efficiency. And that was 30 years ago...if anything, shooting skills overall have gotten WORSE, not better since then IMO.

I agree they have gotten worse. And now we want to put a shot clock in.  Why do you think they've gotten worse? Because they stand around too much passing the ball?  Or because coaches do not correct them?  What you said only plays into what I've been saying.  More truly lazy coaches do not develop players. Allowing them to create bad habits while on AAU teams and open gyms during the summer.  Adding a shot clock, will add the this laziness of coaching.  By adding it, you take away an advantage that coaches can use if need be.  Adding a shot clock only lets the bad coaches win games they most likely will be out coached in. Shot clock will not help player development, which is what high school athletics is suppose to facilitate.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2018, 02:48:42 pm »
I agree they have gotten worse. And now we want to put a shot clock in.  Why do you think they've gotten worse? Because they stand around too much passing the ball?  Or because coaches do not correct them?  What you said only plays into what I've been saying.  More truly lazy coaches do not develop players. Allowing them to create bad habits while on AAU teams and open gyms during the summer.  Adding a shot clock, will add the this laziness of coaching.  By adding it, you take away an advantage that coaches can use if need be.  Adding a shot clock only lets the bad coaches win games they most likely will be out coached in. Shot clock will not help player development, which is what high school athletics is suppose to facilitate.

Honestly, I think they've gotten worse because kids for the most part don't play in their driveways or in the parks as much as they used too. Too many video games and such are keeping them inside and not outside playing. Don't get me wrong I played the crap out of my Atari when I was younger, but I also lived in our driveway shooting and going to the gym whenever it was open. There's too many other draws for their time nowadays.

And before I sound like an old grouch, that's not it at all, times just change and so does the game. Some of the games I see now the kids as a whole are more athletic than in my day, but we could shoot better.

Truly good coaches can adapt and compete with any style of play. I don't think it's lazy to have a team play up tempo if that's what suits them. A shot clock won't really force teams to jack up crazy shots, if they have a good coach they can/will adapt just fine.

Offline nuttinbuthogs

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2018, 06:24:27 pm »
Honestly, I think they've gotten worse because kids for the most part don't play in their driveways or in the parks as much as they used too. Too many video games and such are keeping them inside and not outside playing. Don't get me wrong I played the crap out of my Atari when I was younger, but I also lived in our driveway shooting and going to the gym whenever it was open. There's too many other draws for their time nowadays.

And before I sound like an old grouch, that's not it at all, times just change and so does the game. Some of the games I see now the kids as a whole are more athletic than in my day, but we could shoot better.

Truly good coaches can adapt and compete with any style of play. I don't think it's lazy to have a team play up tempo if that's what suits them. A shot clock won't really force teams to jack up crazy shots, if they have a good coach they can/will adapt just fine.

Maybe they will adapt.  They just shouldn't have too!  Let coaches coach and let fans sit, watch and complain.

Offline Bogeytrain

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2018, 03:00:47 pm »
I don’t think people realize how long 35 seconds is. It will affect very few possessions during the game. The only way it will come in to play “usually” is at the end of the game. Teams wont be be able to hold it for the last 2 minutes up 4 and make it a foul shooting contest. Teams will actually have to play out possessions. That’s an improvement for the game!

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2018, 05:05:42 pm »
I don’t think people realize how long 35 seconds is. It will affect very few possessions during the game. The only way it will come in to play “usually” is at the end of the game. Teams wont be be able to hold it for the last 2 minutes up 4 and make it a foul shooting contest. Teams will actually have to play out possessions. That’s an improvement for the game!


We finally have a voice of reason.... I have been trying to say the same thing that this will impact very little of the game if at all in a huge chunk of games.

Offline Iknewthemwhen

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2018, 07:06:26 pm »

We finally have a voice of reason.... I have been trying to say the same thing that this will impact very little of the game if at all in a huge chunk of games.

Offline Iknewthemwhen

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2018, 07:06:58 pm »
If it isn't going to impact the game then it makes no sense to implement it.

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2018, 07:18:59 pm »
If it isn't going to impact the game then it makes no sense to implement it.

So Arkansas basketball could join the 21st century....

Offline Bogeytrain

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2018, 10:32:50 am »
If it isn't going to impact the game then it makes no sense to implement it.

No one said it wouldn’t impact the game, just not on the scale that everyone is making it out to be. It will vastly improve the end of close games! 

Offline Rocket23

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2018, 01:16:30 pm »
Most of the games I have watched or officiated the last few years, I have seen less and less of the stall tactic.  I believe most of the games, the impact of a shot clock would be minimal.  There are outliers for sure, but overall I don’t think so.  In my college games, shot clock violations were far and few in between.

What I think will be difficult when and if they implement the clock throughout the season, will be having enough people competent enough or at least disciplined enough to operate the clock.  It is a nightmare sometimes in my D2 games and below to get through games without snafus.  It also takes a lot discipline by officials to recognize those shot clock snafus and properly correct the errors.

That being said I prefer to officiate games with a shot clock.  I do see both sides of the arguments from the coaches.  I can remember some of our games in high school vs West Memphis with Lee, Cage, and Aaron Price, the four corners is the only we had a chance.  Yes, we still lost, but it might be by 10 rather than 25.  And gosh it was boring, but it gave us a shot, realistic or not.K

Offline blueandwhite

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2018, 06:41:29 pm »
How do you stop a team from stalling, PLAY DEFENSE. Get out of the packed in zone and play man to man

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2018, 11:19:45 pm »
How do you stop a team from stalling, PLAY DEFENSE. Get out of the packed in zone and play man to man


If coaches are smart then they will play more zone with a shot clock at the high school level.... Let them pass it around the perimeter until the shot clock goes down only to have them take poor outside shots.

Offline Moonshiner

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2018, 07:56:31 am »

If coaches are smart then they will play more zone with a shot clock at the high school level.... Let them pass it around the perimeter until the shot clock goes down only to have them take poor outside shots.

If coaches are smart?? If they were smart they wouldn't put their livelihoods in the hands of teenagers and unrealistic fans.

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2018, 09:02:58 am »
If coaches are smart?? If they were smart they wouldn't put their livelihoods in the hands of teenagers and unrealistic fans.

I thought that's what they did for a living?

Offline Moonshiner

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2018, 12:05:40 pm »
I thought that's what they did for a living?

You are correct

Offline OB11

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2018, 10:05:53 am »
I feel like a shot clock is no different than the 25 second clock in football. It keeps the game moving at a reasonable clip and forces teams and coaches to be prepared to run their system. I'm not a big fan of playing stall-ball, but don't fault coaches that do it. They are playing within the rules. If the rules change, they should adapt. You can still be efficient and run your offense even with a shot clock.

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2018, 11:44:46 am »
Seems like some on this thread should go get certified and help those lazy dumb learn new tricks

Fwiw I don't care either way...watched the Russellville tourney with a 35 second shot clock and only seen a few possessions that we're affected by the shot clock

Offline gameoflife

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2018, 09:26:13 pm »
I feel like a shot clock is no different than the 25 second clock in football. It keeps the game moving at a reasonable clip and forces teams and coaches to be prepared to run their system. I'm not a big fan of playing stall-ball, but don't fault coaches that do it. They are playing within the rules. If the rules change, they should adapt. You can still be efficient and run your offense even with a shot clock.

Not really the same, in football the ball is reset for play at the end of every down and keep the offensive team from literally wasting the entire game you have to have a forced snap.  Basketball the ball stays in play unless a time out or penalty of some sort.

Offline Chalant

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2018, 10:14:03 pm »
Playing fast or playing slow well, both require skill and good fundamentals.
 
A 35-second shot clock will not dramatically change much except end of the game situations as already mentioned.

Playing fast is about being entertained not about better basketball skill set. Some teams want more shots and some teams want better shot selection.

I am blah on the subject except for 1 area if you think you get frustrated now with the clock keepers, wait until a shot clock comes. Also, it is just one more person a school has to pay and I would bet this is one of the biggest roadblocks to ever getting the change made.

Offline SCHawg

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2018, 01:57:57 pm »
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.
LOL you've watched too much Hoosiers buddy.  Nobody wants to see a team hold the ball for two minutes.  Suck it up and play offense.

Offline SCHawg

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2018, 01:59:15 pm »
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.
Saying it would hurt player development?  You hurt player development by running set play after set play and holding the ball on offense. 

Offline gameoflife

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2018, 04:40:15 pm »
Saying it would hurt player development?  You hurt player development by running set play after set play and holding the ball on offense. 

That's ridiculous.  Players get "developed" during extensive practice time. The more developed they are though practice and working on skills during practice the better they execute whatever style of offense, defense the coach has decided to run

Offline Rayburn

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2018, 02:14:52 pm »
LOL you've watched too much Hoosiers buddy.  Nobody wants to see a team hold the ball for two minutes.  Suck it up and play offense.
No team can just stand there and "hold the ball" unless the defense lets it happen. It takes two to NOT tango.
How bout the shot clock whiners suck it up and play defense–instead of crying for a rule change to force the other team to do what you want.

Offline Moonshiner

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2018, 08:10:11 pm »
Lets develop a rule in football that makes the offense pass on every other down. 
Or do away with ground and pound running.  Make it a rule.  "State Law!!"
Running the ball is boring for fans evidently.  Just ask Houston Nutt.
It's about the fans after all.
While we are at it, outlaw junk defenses in basketball. 
Teams that cant "jam it in the hole" start with a 10 point deficit. 
Coaches have to wear white tennis shoes with suits.
4 pointers from the volleyball line and 5 points for a half court shot.

Offline beach bum

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Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2018, 09:59:56 pm »
Lets develop a rule in football that makes the offense pass on every other down. 
Or do away with ground and pound running.  Make it a rule.  "State Law!!"
Running the ball is boring for fans evidently.  Just ask Houston Nutt.
It's about the fans after all.
While we are at it, outlaw junk defenses in basketball. 
Teams that cant "jam it in the hole" start with a 10 point deficit. 
Coaches have to wear white tennis shoes with suits.
4 pointers from the volleyball line and 5 points for a half court shot.

A shot clock is not near as radical as what you just stated above.... Don't be so dramatic and exaggerate that impact about the change to a shot clock.

 

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