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Author Topic: Was the Fan Really a Warren Fan? Was the 15 yard penalty Fair? What do you think?  (Read 12965 times)

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Offline AirWarren

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No Jacks poster has said they were cheated.  I was doing a tongue in cheek comment referring to the channel 16 fox sports broadcast showing a Warren man at a carwash saying they were cheated.  I wasn't serious about that part of my comment.  Most all "known" Jack posters have been great and I, as a Badger fan, appreciate the class exhibited.  There are a few "rogue" posters that stir the pot for some reason.  They are probably not Warren people either, or, if they are, you probably wouldn't claim them. lol 
It's time for this thread to die.

FROM NOW ON, NO MORE POSTS TO THIS THREAD!!!! LOL

They are not Warren people who continue to stir the pot and beat the horse into the ground.

And like most news reports, the media always have a knack for finding “the right guy” to be on camera.

Offline Nacho

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Except for the coach?

Offline AirWarren

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Except for the coach?

You got your state championship, what else do you want in this situation?

Offline STUNNA

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You got your state championship, what else do you want in this situation?

Come on man.. he’s been waiting 30 years for this! Once again congrats to Arkadelphia.. from everything i have heard through interviews he has been nothing but respectful to the Arkadelphia football program.

Offline hogfan10

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Come on man.. he’s been waiting 30 years for this! Once again congrats to Arkadelphia.. from everything i have heard through interviews he has been nothing but respectful to the Arkadelphia football program.

Honestly I couldn't care less about what Hembre thinks, but backhanded compliments while blaming defeat on a WHS student isn't very respectful.

Offline Nacho

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You got your state championship, what else do you want in this situation?

I meant he’s stirring the pot...

Offline Nacho

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You guys on here have been pretty great. I was pleasantly surprised. By you guys, i mean the LJ faithful who comment a lot.

Offline STUNNA

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Honestly I couldn't care less about what Hembre thinks, but backhanded compliments while blaming defeat on a WHS student isn't very respectful.

Are you serious? Not once has he blamed the student at all. Listen to his interview from yesterday. Seemed like he didn’t want anything to happen to the kid at all or any blame put on him.

Offline STUNNA

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Offline SUGARTOWN

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I wonder If Bo would've thought it would've been "fair" to Arkadelphia for the Jacks to line up and kick a short FG after the disruption, when they clearly weren't going to do that before?

Offline STUNNA

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I wonder If Bo would've thought it would've been "fair" to Arkadelphia for the Jacks to line up and kick a short FG after the disruption, when they clearly weren't going to do that before?

In the interview he said what his intentions were before the kid ran on the field.

Offline Nacho

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Yeah now that he’s had time to think about it. If you were there or watched it you know...kicking team wasn’t out there. Dang, sorry Old Badger. Another post.

Offline STUNNA

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Yeah now that he’s had time to think about it. If you were there or watched it you know...kicking team wasn’t out there. Dang, sorry Old Badger. Another post.

I did watch it. And i never mentioned the kicking team was out there.

Offline hogfan10

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Are you serious? Not once has he blamed the student at all. Listen to his interview from yesterday. Seemed like he didn’t want anything to happen to the kid at all or any blame put on him.

He clearly stated he didn't want the kid to be harmed, BUT he also continued to blame his teams loss on the refs decision. Which is essentially blaming the kid, is it not?

Offline hogfan10

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Yeah now that he’s had time to think about it. If you were there or watched it you know...kicking team wasn’t out there. Dang, sorry Old Badger. Another post.

I'm guessing you meant to say the the kicking team WAS out there.
Immediately after the stoppage, the FG team came onto the field and set up.

Offline bigchief72455

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Needs to be investigated. I hear James Comey is needing a job. Time to call for a special counsel on fairness. lol

Offline SUGARTOWN

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In the interview he said what his intentions were before the kid ran on the field.

So assuming the clock stopped he was going to attempt a 35 yd FG? But he didn't want to kick a 40yd one after the 15 yd penalty? Interesting.

Offline STUNNA

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So assuming the clock stopped he was going to attempt a 35 yd FG? But he didn't want to kick a 40yd one after the 15 yd penalty? Interesting.

Once again i said he said what his intentions were before the kid ran on the field.

Offline hogfan10

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So assuming the clock stopped he was going to attempt a 35 yd FG? But he didn't want to kick a 40yd one after the 15 yd penalty? Interesting.

Would have been more like 25 yards. They weren't going to kick a FG there, because they wouldn't of had time w/o the stoppage.
You know all the talk is about the fan situation, what's lost in all of this is that Arkadelphia recovered a clear fumble just 2 plays earlier, but refs said the runner was down.

Offline hogfan10

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Once again i said he said what his intentions were before the kid ran on the field.

He also said there was 6 seconds on the clock at the snap, there were 3.

Offline Jack1990

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We know what he said, doesn't matter anymore, but where did the 35 yard FG come in? Not addressing his intentions just the yardages..If ball was on the 9 and they were going to throw it at the feet of a receiver/RB and if there had been time left, it would have been a 26 yard FG. 

Offline SUGARTOWN

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We know what he said, doesn't matter anymore, but where did the 35 yard FG come in? Not addressing his intentions just the yardages..If ball was on the 9 and they were going to throw it at the feet of a receiver/RB and if there had been time left, it would have been a 26 yard FG.

I'm assuming they call intentional grounding, which it would've been. Burks was in between the 12 and 13 when he got the snap. The penalty is 5 yards from the spot of the pass which would've backed it up to about the 17-18 which equals a 34-35 yd FG.

Offline Jack74

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Warren has the ball on the seven yard line on the right hash in our heavy package ball is snapped with plenty of time to run the play that was called, a rpo to the left. The stoppage of play only helps the defense,and the 15 yard penalty only helps the defense. I like our chances with the play that was called if for NO child walkson the field.

Should have been one play no time on the clock from the seven. Same players on the field when the child ran on the field with no substitutions of players.

Offline Oldbadger

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Okay, I'm violating my own directive.  In one interview I saw Hembree say that it was a rule situation and not the fault of the refs.  This after we all have had a chance to think about it and consider all aspects.  I think the refs made the right call considering the way the rule is stated.  It has never been called before because this situation has never arisen before. Hembree further stated that he felt the rule needs to be addressed by the AAA to prevent a similar situation from occurring in the future.

Offline AirWarren

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Okay, I'm violating my own directive.  In one interview I saw Hembree say that it was a rule situation and not the fault of the refs.  This after we all have had a chance to think about it and consider all aspects.  I think the refs made the right call considering the way the rule is stated.  It has never been called before because this situation has never arisen before. Hembree further stated that he felt the rule needs to be addressed by the AAA to prevent a similar situation from occurring in the future.

Here is the thing. And I need to also go back to my directive about posting on this matter. This situation is now 3 days old and the constant bantering, discussion isn't changing the outcome and Arkadelphia deserves to be able to move on from this to enjoy their title reign for the year.

It does need to be addressed. Because whether it is right or wrong, it did affect the outcome of a game......but the problem here is...."what's fair".

I will tell you what's fair. Nothing. Nothing in life is fair....unless you're on the positive receiving end of fair... this could have easily affected the other side of the field and we would be having this same discussion with the only difference is "Warren got a free timeout to make arrangements and Arkadelphia didn't" . And that is all that needs to be said on this matter. The game was decided and it is over with.

Offline SUGARTOWN

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Okay, I'm violating my own directive.  In one interview I saw Hembree say that it was a rule situation and not the fault of the refs.  This after we all have had a chance to think about it and consider all aspects.  I think the refs made the right call considering the way the rule is stated.  It has never been called before because this situation has never arisen before. Hembree further stated that he felt the rule needs to be addressed by the AAA to prevent a similar situation from occurring in the future.

I agree with this.

Offline LAfootball fan

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I'm assuming they call intentional grounding, which it would've been. Burks was in between the 12 and 13 when he got the snap. The penalty is 5 yards from the spot of the pass which would've backed it up to about the 17-18 which equals a 34-35 yd FG.

You know what they say about assuming.  Burks could have thrown the ball at the backs feet and that would have been perfectly legal but I really think he was going to throw a quick slant pass or post pass to McKnight over the middle.  McKnight was one on one out wide and Arkadelphia didn't have anybody in the center of the field to help the corner because they were scrambling on defense just as much as Warren was scrambling on offense.  I also think that would have been the last play of the game because even if Burks throws the ball at the running backs feet I would have no confidence in that ref crew stopping the clock before it ran out.  For illegal grounding Burks would have had to throw the ball straight down at his feet which is the normal spiking move but Burks did not do this even though the ball had hit his hands before the time out was called and he had time to spike the ball.

Offline SUGARTOWN

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You know what they say about assuming.  Burks could have thrown the ball at the backs feet and that would have been perfectly legal but I really think he was going to throw a quick slant pass or post pass to McKnight over the middle.  McKnight was one on one out wide and Arkadelphia didn't have anybody in the center of the field to help the corner because they were scrambling on defense just as much as Warren was scrambling on offense.  I also think that would have been the last play of the game because even if Burks throws the ball at the running backs feet I would have no confidence in that ref crew stopping the clock before it ran out.  For illegal grounding Burks would have had to throw the ball straight down at his feet which is the normal spiking move but Burks did not do this even though the ball had hit his hands before the time out was called and he had time to spike the ball.

It doesn't matter if he throws it straight down at his feet or at the running backs feet who were 2 steps away from him. If you spike it to stop the clock from the shotgun it's intentional grounding.

Offline Jack74

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I play had been called it was Not going to be grounded. A run pass option to the left.

Offline hogfan10

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I play had been called it was Not going to be grounded. A run pass option to the left.

According to Hembre yesterday on the radio it was going to be an intentional incomplete pass to stop the clock, cause as he said it, there were 6 seconds on the clock at the snap.
Only problem is there were only 3 seconds on the clock at the snap.

Offline KASH dba The Lumberjack

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According to Hembre yesterday on the radio it was going to be an intentional incomplete pass to stop the clock, cause as he said it, there were 6 seconds on the clock at the snap.
Only problem is there were only 3 seconds on the clock at the snap.
3 second was plenty of time to kick a field goal. I'm not sure what you're arguing here...

Offline LAfootball fan

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The only problem you are wrong again.  You can pull up the replay on youtube.  It CLEARLY shows the ball being snapped at the 5 second mark, Burks has it in his hands at the 4 second mark, so please explain to me HOW Burks could have the ball in his hands with 4 seconds showing on the clock and the ball gets snapped with 3 seconds?????

Try watching video of the play before spouting off that nonsense about 3 seconds.  The 3 seconds is what was left on the clock AFTER the refs finally blew the whistle to stop play.  I have the game dvrd and the tv broadcast has the game clock superimposed on the video.  I slowed the video down to watch the play myself just to see exactly what was going on at the end of the game. 

Offline hogfan10

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3 second was plenty of time to kick a field goal. I'm not sure what you're arguing here...

Sure it is.
I'm saying I'm not sure 3 seconds is enough time to run a route and throw it at the receivers feet to kill the clock, which is what Hembre said the plan was;
per his radio interview yesterday.

Offline hogfan10

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The only problem you are wrong again.  You can pull up the replay on youtube.  It CLEARLY shows the ball being snapped at the 5 second mark, Burks has it in his hands at the 4 second mark, so please explain to me HOW Burks could have the ball in his hands with 4 seconds showing on the clock and the ball gets snapped with 3 seconds?????

Try watching video of the play before spouting off that nonsense about 3 seconds.  The 3 seconds is what was left on the clock AFTER the refs finally blew the whistle to stop play.  I have the game dvrd and the tv broadcast has the game clock superimposed on the video.  I slowed the video down to watch the play myself just to see exactly what was going on at the end of the game.

I guess we're seeing different things, because I've watched the video. In my opinion he caught it at 3 seconds. As soon as he caught it he turned to see what was going on (due to refs blowing the whistle), so it's possible the clock stopped just a smidgen b/4 he caught the ball, which would put it at under 3 seconds.

Offline STUNNA

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Offline hogfan10

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https://youtu.be/fJUZfCwX96c

Ok looks like you're right, #13 caught it with 4 seconds. If the plan was as Hembre said on the radio, I didn't see anybody moving toward a pass route. So either #13 was going to run it, or spike it in the backfield.

Offline gmac

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The only problem you are wrong again.  You can pull up the replay on youtube.  It CLEARLY shows the ball being snapped at the 5 second mark, Burks has it in his hands at the 4 second mark, so please explain to me HOW Burks could have the ball in his hands with 4 seconds showing on the clock and the ball gets snapped with 3 seconds?????

the clock on the tv was not always wright

Try watching video of the play before spouting off that nonsense about 3 seconds.  The 3 seconds is what was left on the clock AFTER the refs finally blew the whistle to stop play.  I have the game dvrd and the tv broadcast has the game clock superimposed on the video.  I slowed the video down to watch the play myself just to see exactly what was going on at the end of the game. 

Offline Radiotalker

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why did the officials put 12 sec back on the clock?

Offline hogfan10

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why did the officials put 12 sec back on the clock?

They put an additional 9 (or 8) to make 12. I assume it was an attempt to be fair to both teams. Warren got a penalty preventing a FG on the next play, but in the process they gained enough time to run two plays.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 04:07:23 pm by hogfan10 »

Offline LAfootball fan

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The kid was on the field around the 12 second mark.  You can see his shadow as he is walking across the field with around 10 seconds on the clock.  I really can't explain why they put 12 seconds on there though since it appears they blew the whistle around the 4 second mark.  Nothing those refs did when that fan came onto the field made any sense to be honest other than stopping the clock to have him removed.

Screwed up the ending of a great game in my opinion.  It was just time for Arkadelphia to have things go their way.  They have been capable of being in the championship game the last few years and this year everything fell into place for them.  You have to have things go your way most of the time to win a state championship, to include avoiding critical injuries, avoiding critical penalties at the wrong time, avoiding turnovers, etc.  Warren had two senior offensive lineman go down to season ending injuries, including a critical player last week against Joe T Robinson.  Had to shuffle on the oline and rearrange the sub pattern on defense.  Warren had a critical penalty called on a made first down in the red zone in this game that erased a big 3rd down conversion.  Arkadelphia got a big penalty on Warren on a stopped 3rd down inside the 10 yard line that kept a drive alive for a td instead of a possible field goal try on 4th down.  Just little things that add up and can be the difference in losing or winning a tightly contested game.

Both teams gave great effort and deserved to win.  Arkadelphia was just better last Saturday and they deserve the credit for winning the game and championship.  I don't consider it a tarnished championship.  I think how the refs handled the ending was wrong that is all.  Arkadelphia made the big play when they needed it to take back the lead and their defense made enough plays down the stretch to hold it., bottom line.  You really couldn't ask for a more entertaining and exciting championship game than what everyone witnessed Saturday.  It sucks for Arkadelphia that everyone is talking about the ending instead of them winning the championship.  Their team and fans didn't deserve that.

Again, I want to congratulate Arkadelphia for accomplishing something they had not accomplished in 30 years.  They EARNED that championship, not just this game, but how they performed all year long.  That qb is the real deal and will be a handful for the 7A the next couple years for sure.  Very well coached team. 

Offline bluegrassboy75

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According to the NFHS rule book (page 187), a nonplayer entering the restricted area (the field) while the ball is live is a penalty.  First offense is a warning, second offense is a 5 yard penalty and third offense is a 15 yard penalty.

That may be what they applied.

Thank you for that.  I've called basketball for many years and I love football but I don't know the rules well enough to officiate it.

I didn't see any sideline warning in the HSU play-by-play list, but there was a 5-yard sideline interference penalty after a punt in the third quarter.  http://fac.hsu.edu/mitchet/livestats/aaa/4a/xplays3.htm

NFHS rule book: 
CLICK HERE




Offline sorryschooladm

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They put an additional 9 (or 8) to make 12. I assume it was an attempt to be fair to both teams. Warren got a penalty preventing a FG on the next play, but in the process they gained enough time to run two plays.
This is as close to reality as we are going to get. Refs did not know what to do, so they develop a compromise. 15 on Warren protects Arky from a chip shot FG. 12 seconds add back gives  Warren a chance most likely 2 from the 24. Human beings in tough situation.

Offline Rida4Life

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So does anyone in their right mind expect coach Hembree to NOT be upset after that?  According to the rule book they got the call wrong. 
Not only that but in Arkansas there is really no appeals process to even hold these officials accountable for completely butchering the end of the game. 
All things considered I thought he handled it pretty well.  I mean it cost him a state title.  Who knows if they make the field goal..... maybe they do and maybe they don't.... but at least then the kids decide the outcome.

Offline hogfan10

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So does anyone in their right mind expect coach Hembree to NOT be upset after that?  According to the rule book they got the call wrong. 
Not only that but in Arkansas there is really no appeals process to even hold these officials accountable for completely butchering the end of the game. 
All things considered I thought he handled it pretty well.  I mean it cost him a state title.  Who knows if they make the field goal..... maybe they do and maybe they don't.... but at least then the kids decide the outcome.

I think the rule book says penalize/reward at the referee's discretion. It didn't cost him the title, there were two more plays after the stoppage. Now, the missed fumble could have cost Arkadelphia a championship.

Offline bleudog

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So does anyone in their right mind expect coach Hembree to NOT be upset after that? According to the rule book they got the call wrong. 
Not only that but in Arkansas there is really no appeals process to even hold these officials accountable for completely butchering the end of the game. 
All things considered I thought he handled it pretty well.  I mean it cost him a state title.  Who knows if they make the field goal..... maybe they do and maybe they don't.... but at least then the kids decide the outcome.

According to the NFHS rule book (page 187), a nonplayer entering the restricted area (the field) while the ball is live is a penalty.  First offense is a warning, second offense is a 5 yard penalty and third offense is a 15 yard penalty.

That may be what they applied.

I didn't see any sideline warning in the HSU play-by-play list (HSU folks may not log those since field position isn't effected), but there was a 5-yard sideline interference penalty after a punt in the third quarter.  http://fac.hsu.edu/mitchet/livestats/aaa/4a/xplays3.htm

NFHS rule book: 
CLICK HERE

« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:47:16 am by bleudog »

Offline KASH dba The Lumberjack

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I think the rule book says penalize/reward at the referee's discretion. It didn't cost him the title, there were two more plays after the stoppage. Now, the missed fumble could have cost Arkadelphia a championship.
Fumble, Bo's on the field, fumble, Bo's on the field, fumble, Bo's on the field.
Nobody is arguing there was a fumble call missed nor Bo being on the field. You act like the fumble cancels out the penalty. They didn't confer over the fumble, was a missed call. They did have a conference on the penalty. That's the difference.

Offline bleudog

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Fumble, Bo's on the field, fumble, Bo's on the field, fumble, Bo's on the field.
Nobody is arguing there was a fumble call missed nor Bo being on the field. You act like the fumble cancels out the penalty. They didn't confer over the fumble, was a missed call. They did have a conference on the penalty. That's the difference.

I just finished reading one of John Madden's books.  Madden has a chapter on "fair advantage."  Madden also mentioned whenever he went out on the field to argue with a ref, Madden always tried to do it when a player of his was down so he had a loophole for being on the field.  ;)

Offline hogfan10

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Fumble, Bo's on the field, fumble, Bo's on the field, fumble, Bo's on the field.
Nobody is arguing there was a fumble call missed nor Bo being on the field. You act like the fumble cancels out the penalty. They didn't confer over the fumble, was a missed call. They did have a conference on the penalty. That's the difference.
We got cheated, fan on the field, we got cheated, fan on the field.
IDK, maybe they should have conferred after the fumble (there was no return). But, I get it, Warren lost; and hey, they need an excuse.

Offline KASH dba The Lumberjack

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We got cheated, fan on the field, we got cheated, fan on the field.
IDK, maybe they should have conferred after the fumble (there was no return). But, I get it, Warren lost; and hey, they need an excuse.
I haven't spoken a word about being cheated. I have said and will always say the refs were wrong, which also includes the infamous fumble you continue to mention every chance you get.

Offline STUNNA

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We got cheated, fan on the field, we got cheated, fan on the field.
IDK, maybe they should have conferred after the fumble (there was no return). But, I get it, Warren lost; and hey, they need an excuse.
Even the best lose every once in a while  ;)

 

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