• Welcome to Fearless Friday Bulletin Boards. Please login or sign up.

 FF is powered by:        Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

Started by MDXPHD, December 17, 2015, 03:12:54 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lionheart88

Quote from: PA Dad on December 18, 2015, 09:21:14 am
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?

Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then.  4 of 11 private schools have titles.  That's 36% of private schools with at least one title.  What percentage of public schools have won a title?  Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that. 


Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).

How about Charleston in 3A?  HA is in 3A and Charleston has far more championships.  Greenwood had no problem competing against PA when they were both in the same classification.  Warren and Nashville have no problem competing with Shiloh in 4A.

And, I'll go back to a point I made earlier.  The real gripe, at least right now, is PA.  No one is complaining that Catholic or Conway Christian or LRC or CAC has a great advantage.  Why not?  Because they aren't winning state titles.
We're discussing how private schools win a disproportionate number of titles.  Why talk about schools that have never won titles?  No one's talking about North Pulaski or DeQueen on the public side.

You'll notice that I said "almost without exception".  Harding Academy was the exception I was thinking of; Charleston has done a remarkable job in 3A.  Yes, Greenwood is 2-2 vs PA(and three of four times, the winner went on to a state title), but of their 7 titles, only 2 were won while they were in the same classification as PA (both times they had to beat PA to get there).  They've largely dominated when they didn't have to face a PA, Shiloh, etc.  Likewise, Nashville's titles almost invariably came when PA and Shiloh were in different divisions.  Sure, Shiloh's in 4A right now, but we both know that right now they aren't on a level with PA; Shiloh hasn't been good since 2010.

Red Devil Alum

It is true that the lack of geographic restrictions is an advantage for private schools for sure. Of course, the requirement to pay tuition rather than it being free is a difficulty.

Chief_Osceola™

One thing I've noticed in all this discussion, is that the success of private schools is cyclical, just like it is with a number of public schools.  Years ago, CAC and Shiloh were always in the state title discussion, or winning them.  Now, HA and PA are the big dogs.  Granted, PA has had the longest run of relative success, but I don't think it really has anything to do with being a private school.  They are located in a large metro area where the majority of the other schools are not good football programs.  Most of the public and magnet schools are basketball schools right now, and the lack of football success around programs in LR has helped PA.  Also, they are well-coached, and have a system that is really difficult, if not impossible to completely game plan for in one week.  As for HA, they are a C of C school located in a heavily populated C of C area.  They probably get a lot of kids that would otherwise go to Searcy but for the church affiliation.

I think in time, we'll see the pendulum swing back the other way, but for now the 5A and 3A just have to deal with the fact that the dominant private schools are in those classifications.

Grond

An interesting analysis might be:

LIST OF HIGH SCHOOLS THAT HAVE WON MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS, IN THE ORDER OF THE NUMBER OF CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Rather than compare private to public, simply look at dominance.

Oldbadger

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 18, 2015, 11:54:00 am
It is true that the lack of geographic restrictions is an advantage for private schools for sure. Of course, the requirement to pay tuition rather than it being free is a difficulty.
If the school wants you, they will waive the tuition. 

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 05:20:42 pm
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 18, 2015, 11:54:00 am
It is true that the lack of geographic restrictions is an advantage for private schools for sure. Of course, the requirement to pay tuition rather than it being free is a difficulty.
If the school wants you, they will waive the tuition.
100% untrue. 100%.

Yellowcake

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 18, 2015, 12:21:08 pm
One thing I've noticed in all this discussion, is that the success of private schools is cyclical, just like it is with a number of public schools.  Years ago, CAC and Shiloh were always in the state title discussion, or winning them.  Now, HA and PA are the big dogs.  Granted, PA has had the longest run of relative success, but I don't think it really has anything to do with being a private school.  They are located in a large metro area where the majority of the other schools are not good football programs.  Most of the public and magnet schools are basketball schools right now, and the lack of football success around programs in LR has helped PA.  Also, they are well-coached, and have a system that is really difficult, if not impossible to completely game plan for in one week.  As for HA, they are a C of C school located in a heavily populated C of C area.  They probably get a lot of kids that would otherwise go to Searcy but for the church affiliation.

I think in time, we'll see the pendulum swing back the other way, but for now the 5A and 3A just have to deal with the fact that the dominant private schools are in those classifications.

Yellowcake

I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.


AirWarren

Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

Oldbadger

Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!! 

PA Dad

Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

PA Dad

Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!!

So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it?  Have you ever taken a class in logic?

If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?

Oldbadger

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!!

So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it?  Have you ever taken a class in logic?

If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!!  Let's turn it around.  Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!

AirWarren

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!!

So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it?  Have you ever taken a class in logic?

If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?

Check your pm.

PA Dad

Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!!

So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it?  Have you ever taken a class in logic?

If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!!  Let's turn it around.  Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!

Really?  You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it.  That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.

Check the regulations.  No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth.  The school can only decide who gets admitted.  An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school.  That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.

The school has no say so.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.

I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.

Lionheart88

So some third party with no connection to the school just tells the school "these 12 kids get discounts of 20%" and the school say "oh, ok, sure." and goes along with it?  Why?  That doesn't make any sense.  The school has to have something to do with setting criteria.  Why else would the school have them running their discount program?

Oldbadger

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:54:19 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!!

So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it?  Have you ever taken a class in logic?

If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!!  Let's turn it around.  Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!

Really?  You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it.  That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.

Check the regulations.  No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth.  The school can only decide who gets admitted.  An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school.  That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.

The school has no say so.
So, students DO get financial assistance, if warranted?  I had no idea that was true.  All private schools have administrators who make this decision based in Boston?  I didn't know that.  Those that get it, what is it based on?

Lionheart88

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.

I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
Since the AAA isn't actually a government body, do they have to honor FOIA requests?  I thought that only applied to government records (and not all of those).

MDXPHD

I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes.  I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.

MDXPHD

December 19, 2015, 10:10:23 pm #70 Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:12:50 pm by MDXPHD
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 19, 2015, 10:06:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.

I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
Since the AAA isn't actually a government body, do they have to honor FOIA requests?  I thought that only applied to government records (and not all of those).

I believe so. I had to research and I found a case regarding this:

"It was conceded at trial, and on appeal, that the AAA is subject to the provisions of the FOIA as an organization in this state supported "wholly or in part by public funds or expending public funds."  Depoyster v. Cole 766 S.W.2d 606 (1989)

FOI isn't just for government bodies, but it applies to public entities I think, such as a public school or organization.

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.

I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.

See my explanation above.  I'll be interested to see what information you get.  I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.

And, if the school directly decides who gets scholarships or how much they get, the kid loses his eligibility to participate in college athletics.

I do not know the name of the third party administrator nor do I know who determines who that is.  But I think the school has no input into that decision.

I'm all in favor of getting the facts out.  What I don't like is posters who claim to know when they have no clue or who believe something because they've heard it said many times.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:12:23 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.

I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.

See my explanation above.  I'll be interested to see what information you get.  I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.

And, if the school directly decides who gets scholarships or how much they get, the kid loses his eligibility to participate in college athletics.

I do not know the name of the third party administrator nor do I know who determines who that is.  But I think the school has no input into that decision.

I'm all in favor of getting the facts out.  What I don't like is posters who claim to know when they have no clue or who believe something because they've heard it said many times.

I understand. I thought that getting the information of the total number of students who get financial aid and also the number of athletes who get it will help us understand better. If just a couple athletes get it, then I'm sure people can understand it, although those athletes shouldn't be the two d-1 players on your team lol. If I was a betting man, I would bet the majority of the athletes go there for sports and their parents can afford to send them there for that.

PA Dad

Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 19, 2015, 10:05:13 pm
So some third party with no connection to the school just tells the school "these 12 kids get discounts of 20%" and the school say "oh, ok, sure." and goes along with it?  Why?  That doesn't make any sense.  The school has to have something to do with setting criteria.  Why else would the school have them running their discount program?

I will not pretend to know all of the ins and outs of the system because I don't.  The school may set a limit on the number of students who get assistance or the amount of assistance a student can get.  But I'm confident the school does not decide which students get assistance or how much they get.

PA Dad

December 19, 2015, 10:21:27 pm #74 Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:29:03 pm by PA Dad
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 10:06:11 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:54:19 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this.  All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times.  AW is right!!

So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it?  Have you ever taken a class in logic?

If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!!  Let's turn it around.  Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!

Really?  You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it.  That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.

Check the regulations.  No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth.  The school can only decide who gets admitted.  An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school.  That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.

The school has no say so.
So, students DO get financial assistance, if warranted?  I had no idea that was true.  All private schools have administrators who make this decision based in Boston?  I didn't know that.  Those that get it, what is it based on?

I think the amount of assistance awarded is based on need.  I do not think any assistance is given based on merit, either academic or athletic.  But note that is my belief - I do not know that for sure.

AT

Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.

Oldbadger

December 19, 2015, 10:26:59 pm #76 Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:28:37 pm by Oldbadger
I'll just say this.  Even if I could prove it, I wouldn't.  I would have to name names, otherwise how could I prove it?  I never name names, especially something that wouldn't be to their benefit.  But, as I said before, how can you prove it doesn't happen. Unless you are directly involved.  Are you? My information, that I only HEARD, wasn't concerning PA. And, what is wrong with kids getting financial assistance?  I never said anyone recruited!  By the way, I believe the Earth is round, but I can't prove that either!

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:14:44 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:12:23 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely.  And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.

And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.



They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.

You obviously know a lot about this.  So, tell us how it happens.  Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be?  Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?

I know the answers to these questions.  I bet you don't.  If you do, tell us.

Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.

I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.

See my explanation above.  I'll be interested to see what information you get.  I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.

And, if the school directly decides who gets scholarships or how much they get, the kid loses his eligibility to participate in college athletics.

I do not know the name of the third party administrator nor do I know who determines who that is.  But I think the school has no input into that decision.

I'm all in favor of getting the facts out.  What I don't like is posters who claim to know when they have no clue or who believe something because they've heard it said many times.

I understand. I thought that getting the information of the total number of students who get financial aid and also the number of athletes who get it will help us understand better. If just a couple athletes get it, then I'm sure people can understand it, although those athletes shouldn't be the two d-1 players on your team lol. If I was a betting man, I would bet the majority of the athletes go there for sports and their parents can afford to send them there for that.

Based on what I know about the players and their families, I will be very surprised if more than 2or 3 of the football players receive any financial assistance.

Let me add a caveat.  The children of all teachers pay one half tuition.  I assume Kelley is considered to be a teacher.  So I assume Zack Kelley attends at half tuition.  But, as noted, that's not based on athletic ability.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.

NLR never attracts new basketball players.

PA Dad

Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 10:26:59 pm
I'll just say this.  Even if I could prove it, I wouldn't.  I would have to name names, otherwise how could I prove it?  I never name names, especially something that wouldn't be to their benefit.  But, as I said before, how can you prove it doesn't happen. Unless you are directly involved.  Are you? My information, that I only HEARD, wasn't concerning PA. And, what is wrong with kids getting financial assistance?  I never said anyone recruited!  By the way, I believe the Earth is round, but I can't prove that either!

This discussion started because you said that if a school wants you they will waive the tuition.  That cannot happen.  That is my point.

Oldbadger

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:28:56 pm
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.

NLR never attracts new basketball players.
NLR used to attract good football players!

Oldbadger

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:33:40 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 10:26:59 pm
I'll just say this.  Even if I could prove it, I wouldn't.  I would have to name names, otherwise how could I prove it?  I never name names, especially something that wouldn't be to their benefit.  But, as I said before, how can you prove it doesn't happen. Unless you are directly involved.  Are you? My information, that I only HEARD, wasn't concerning PA. And, what is wrong with kids getting financial assistance?  I never said anyone recruited!  By the way, I believe the Earth is round, but I can't prove that either!

This discussion started because you said that if a school wants you they will waive the tuition.  That cannot happen.  That is my point.
Perhaps I was wrong!  Or, at least, I should have expanded what I meant.  I certainly didn't mean they recruited, or did any untoward. 

AirWarren

December 19, 2015, 10:39:56 pm #82 Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:41:33 pm by AirWarren
Pa must be the only school that makes kids of teachers pay half tuition. I know for a fact of one school that is private that lets their employees kids attend free. I worked with a spouse of a teacher at a particular private school here in central ark.  And another one does the same not in this area of the state.

She told me the pay isn't as good as a public school for her spouse. But the benefit of her kid being able to attend this school was well worth it.

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes.  I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.

If that has happened, it has not happened in the last 4 or 5 years.  I've done an analysis of the 2015 players and the great majority of them have been at PA since grade school.  I posted that analysis in another thread.  Those who transferred in after the 9th grade generally came from out of state because their parents were transferred here for employment reasons.

AT

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:28:56 pm
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.

NLR never attracts new basketball players.

I know you are being sarcastic, but it happens on a small scale at any school with a good football program or basketball program.

Parents will move and take their kids to other schools because of athletics. Happens every year at multiple school districts.

PA Dad

Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 10:39:56 pm
Pa must be the only school that makes kids of teachers pay half tuition. I know for a fact of one school that is private that lets their employees kids attend free. I worked with a spouse of a teacher at a particular private school here in central ark.  And another one does the same not in this area of the state.

She told me the pay isn't as good as a public school for her spouse. But the benefit of her kid being able to attend this school was well worth it.

I know a couple of teachers at PA with kids at the school.  They do have to pay half tuition.

PA Dad

MDX, do you know if the information you will get from your FOIA request will show how many football players get assistance versus athletes?  Since our discussion concerns football, I'm not sure knowing the number of athletes helps much - I doubt many of us care how many cross country runners get assistance.

AirWarren

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:52:59 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 10:39:56 pm
Pa must be the only school that makes kids of teachers pay half tuition. I know for a fact of one school that is private that lets their employees kids attend free. I worked with a spouse of a teacher at a particular private school here in central ark.  And another one does the same not in this area of the state.

She told me the pay isn't as good as a public school for her spouse. But the benefit of her kid being able to attend this school was well worth it.

I know a couple of teachers at PA with kids at the school.  They do have to pay half tuition.

This private I'm talking about is not pa.

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes.  I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.

Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football.  The issue is why.  For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore.  His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB.  Is that recruiting?  Is it cheating?

AT

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes.  I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.

Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football.  The issue is why.  For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore.  His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB.  Is that recruiting?  Is it cheating?

Although you aren't asking me, of course it's not. You know it's the offseason when the

"Does anyone else think private schools recruit?" thread pops up.

And it's not like the AAA ignores that private schools have certain advantages. Every private school must play up on classification based on enrollment.

PA Dad

Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 11:06:46 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes.  I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.

Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football.  The issue is why.  For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore.  His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB.  Is that recruiting?  Is it cheating?

Although you aren't asking me, of course it's not. You know it's the offseason when the

"Does anyone else think private schools recruit?" thread pops up.

And it's not like the AAA ignores that private schools have certain advantages. Every private school must play up on classification based on enrollment.

Of course, you are correct.  And, I don't think MDX started this thread to talk about recruiting.  He started it with factual information about whether private schools have an unfair advantage.  It has been an interesting thread.  But, about every thread regarding private schools eventually involves recruiting.

AT

I'm not sure how you could even describe unfair advantages. There will always be haves and have nots for everything.

A program that can overcome the disadvantages, whatever they may be, are what make high school sports so fun.

High schools aren't all given the same amount of scholarships. High schools aren't given the same amount of draft picks or salary cap.

High schools work with what they got.

PA Dad

Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 11:23:28 pm
I'm not sure how you could even describe unfair advantages. There will always be haves and have nots for everything.

A program that can overcome the disadvantages, whatever they may be, are what make high school sports so fun.

High schools aren't all given the same amount of scholarships. High schools aren't given the same amount of draft picks or salary cap.

High schools work with what they got.

Well said.  And a few of them, both public and private, do a much better job than the rest.

Yellowcake

may I share?

I was raised in public schools. When I moved to LR, I used to got to PA games to root against them. I was a supreme hater. Then I had two girls and didn't want to send them to the public school options. I researched academics and settled on PA. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't think I could ever pull for PA. you know, with all the recruiting and privileged kids.

Then I saw with my own eyes why they were good. They simply out worked everyone (I don't want to restart that debate) and the kids playing were mostly kids who had always gone to PA. None of the stuff I was "hating" about turned out to be true. These were good kids who worked their ever loving butts off, and survived under a very tough coach with extremely high expectations. Once I learned first hand why they were good, I was able to become a fan.

So I get it when other folks hate. You can see it on their faces when they come to PA for a game. I really do understand. I was once one of them. All I can say is it is better to know the facts rather than buying into the unfounded rumors. I don't apologize for being a PA fan anymore. And I respect the kids and coaches for all the work they put into being the best team they can be. And I hope coach Kelley stays there for the next several years.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes.  I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.

Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football.  The issue is why.  For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore.  His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB.  Is that recruiting?  Is it cheating?

I heard Kelley called Obama and had him transfer the dad there...maybe it's true or maybe it's a rumor. I believe it.

the voice

Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 11:52:45 pm
may I share?

I was raised in public schools. When I moved to LR, I used to got to PA games to root against them. I was a supreme hater. Then I had two girls and didn't want to send them to the public school options. I researched academics and settled on PA. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't think I could ever pull for PA. you know, with all the recruiting and privileged kids.

Then I saw with my own eyes why they were good. They simply out worked everyone (I don't want to restart that debate) and the kids playing were mostly kids who had always gone to PA. None of the stuff I was "hating" about turned out to be true. These were good kids who worked their ever loving butts off, and survived under a very tough coach with extremely high expectations. Once I learned first hand why they were good, I was able to become a fan.

So I get it when other folks hate. You can see it on their faces when they come to PA for a game. I really do understand. I was once one of them. All I can say is it is better to know the facts rather than buying into the unfounded rumors. I don't apologize for being a PA fan anymore. And I respect the kids and coaches for all the work they put into being the best team they can be. And I hope coach Kelley stays there for the next several years.

Most of them have always gone there.  I don't care if a team recruits or doesn't. Matters little to me. The arrogant attitude of fans and some players , along with some posters here have all contributed to the dislike towards PA , the blasting of music during the game , at times illegal, the songs played. Then for someone to say they outwork everyone. Simply an opinion and highly doubtful, unprovable, and another comment that will irk many. You're not present at other schools to know if they work as hard as others , much less harder. This attitude is what fuels it. Stop trying to act like they are average ordinary kids. Yeah there are some , no doubt , I've seen them. They hardly touch the field , mom and dad are the most verbal fans and little Johnny gets no meaningful snaps. It's the 2-4 D1 players on the team that put you over the top. Not saying it's illegal or cheating , just admit as the sensible PA posters have and go on. Stop with all the work harder when you honestly have no idea what most other schools do. I've no doubt they work hard. Most committed players do.

Yellowcake

Ah Voice, you certainly have an ax to grind. I am sorry you have so much hate. But I understand. Like I said, I was once like you.

I'd be curious who the 2-4 division 1 players on this year's undefeated team are. Please identify them. Oh, that's right, they don't exist. Just some more made up "facts" to fuel your hate.

Grond

Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 07:54:30 am
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 11:52:45 pm
may I share?

I was raised in public schools. When I moved to LR, I used to got to PA games to root against them. I was a supreme hater. Then I had two girls and didn't want to send them to the public school options. I researched academics and settled on PA. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't think I could ever pull for PA. you know, with all the recruiting and privileged kids.

Then I saw with my own eyes why they were good. They simply out worked everyone (I don't want to restart that debate) and the kids playing were mostly kids who had always gone to PA. None of the stuff I was "hating" about turned out to be true. These were good kids who worked their ever loving butts off, and survived under a very tough coach with extremely high expectations. Once I learned first hand why they were good, I was able to become a fan.

So I get it when other folks hate. You can see it on their faces when they come to PA for a game. I really do understand. I was once one of them. All I can say is it is better to know the facts rather than buying into the unfounded rumors. I don't apologize for being a PA fan anymore. And I respect the kids and coaches for all the work they put into being the best team they can be. And I hope coach Kelley stays there for the next several years.

Most of them have always gone there.  I don't care if a team recruits or doesn't. Matters little to me. The arrogant attitude of fans and some players , along with some posters here have all contributed to the dislike towards PA , the blasting of music during the game , at times illegal, the songs played. Then for someone to say they outwork everyone. Simply an opinion and highly doubtful, unprovable, and another comment that will irk many. You're not present at other schools to know if they work as hard as others , much less harder. This attitude is what fuels it. Stop trying to act like they are average ordinary kids. Yeah there are some , no doubt , I've seen them. They hardly touch the field , mom and dad are the most verbal fans and little Johnny gets no meaningful snaps. It's the 2-4 D1 players on the team that put you over the top. Not saying it's illegal or cheating , just admit as the sensible PA posters have and go on. Stop with all the work harder when you honestly have no idea what most other schools do. I've no doubt they work hard. Most committed players do.

Pulaski Academy certainly works TACTICALLY and TECHNICALLY harder than most teams in the state. And they play SMARTER than most teams in the state.

Football is not nearly the emotional game that so many FANS think it is. It is all about 11 players on the field doing their job. REALLY!!!

I watch a LOT of Arkansas D2 football, from practice film to games. When I watch PA (which has been 3 or 4 times this year), I see a team where guys do their job EVERY PLAY. There is a high level of discipline.

the voice

I have no ax to grind , you are the one who is trying to convince others that it's simply hard work more than what anyone else does. I don't know the team players names. I'm speaking from others called facts on a previous thread. You were nothing like me , I'm not a hater , I simply get tired of people acting like its nothing but hard work separating PA from other schools, I certainly don't hate anyone, this run will end , sooner than some think. As for the d1 players it was in thread and it mentioned names and previous classes.

It's easy to stand back and say they hate us because we win. Wrong , most don't hate , they are against you for your brash comments,  pounding a team to mercy rule when game was long decided, thinking it's perfectly acceptable to run score to 35 because that's when sportsmanship rule kicks in.  To blare music out over the speakers at a game while destorying all pride a team has in the process of being up 40 points.

I have relatives in private schools right now and I support them completely. I do not hate PA , I certainly don't have the respect for them I did years ago. I understand your choice to send your daughters there. As for apologizing for being a fan , well not anymore, that says enough.

Keep looking down at us public schools who haven't figured out how to work as hard you guys. Someday maybe if try harder we can. My team is 2-1 against KK at pa , but we have to learn how to work harder to be able to be on that level. Maybe some day. Let me know next you're coming to practice to see if we aren't working as hard , I'd like to see you

the voice

Yes grond , there's much to be said about playing smart football and executing your job. Most teams don't do this as well. Yes it separates some. Emotion alone will not win you ball games. One extreme to the other will not.  It's a combination of things, no argument from me on this.  I've given them credit for things they do. Most teams don't win the majority of their games or conference titles. The teams that do work hard and execute much better. But they also have players as well.

Fox 16 Arkansas Fox 24 Arkansas