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Back for annual consideration: it is time to trim the football playoff brackets

Started by sevenof400, November 11, 2018, 08:16:46 am

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sevenof400

I suspect this is tossed out each year so why should this year be any different. 

Look at the results from week 1 in the playoffs.  Far too many teams get in the playoffs and needlessly extend the season another week. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 
Every year the first week of the playoffs is pretty much a lop sided home affair. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 


HorseFeathers


Spider2 Y Banana

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 11, 2018, 08:16:46 am
I suspect this is tossed out each year so why should this year be any different. 

Look at the results from week 1 in the playoffs.  Far too many teams get in the playoffs and needlessly extend the season another week. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 
Every year the first week of the playoffs is pretty much a lop sided home affair. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half.


I don't necessarily disagree, but how then do you award the teams that finish 1 & 2 and get that valuable BYE week?

I look at this like I do college bowl season.   Only the New Year's Six really matter, but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching teams that never play each other get a chance to play. 

DEVIL DOG HOG

I would leave 5A alone.  In 2017 5A West there was a 4 way tie for first place, this year there was a 3 way tie for second and in 5A East there was a 5 way tie for first.

GRN R H-2 X-Deep Over

Could you imagine a bowl season instead of playoffs?
Who would sponsor them and what matchups would they select?

The Hooten's Bowl: He gets to pick his two best teams? Maybe regardless of classification?
The Tyson Bowl: the top 1-4A team vs the top 2-4A or 8-4A, whichever has the better duck-hunting?
The possibilities are endless.

game on

Too many teams play in the playoffs.  How do you justifiy as a point of accomplishment, competition or just old fashioned earning the berth, 5 and 6 teams making the playoffs?  Is it about making more money or giving more schools an opportunity to have a playoff experience?  I share the feeling that as many kids as can should have that thrill, but too many teams playing with losing records seems to diminish the importance of making the playoff.
I know numbers is an issue in 6 & 7A football because there are only 16 schools in each class.  Maybe a better answer there would be to extend the regular season for those two classifications.  Each 6 & 7A team could play an extra game or two in the pre-conference season.  That would extend the season and keep the end of the playoffs in line with where they are now.  Eliminate the 5th seeds in the lower division and get it back to 4 from each conference.  Of better yet to 3 and host one round of high school bowl games.  Making the playoffs a real big deal when you make it there.

HorseFeathers

The bowl game idea is intriguing....I mean let's face it 99% of the time a 3 seed isn't a legitimate threat for a state title....everyone wants a participation trophy or whatever, so have a say...Mansfield(3 seed from 3a-4) and Dardanelle(4 seed from the 4a-4) play in the River Valley Bowl. And do some other regional games 🤷

friscokid

Best thing to do 4A and below is go back to 8 conferences of 6 teams each and do away with the fifth seeds and the stupid byes. Top 4 seeds make it and you play till you lose.

HorseFeathers


game on

That's only 5 conference games, kinda short plus you have to schedule 2 extra noncon games. 

HorseFeathers

If everyone is only playing 5 then should be plenty of opportunity to pick up games

tmycjy

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 11, 2018, 08:16:46 am
I suspect this is tossed out each year so why should this year be any different. 

Look at the results from week 1 in the playoffs.  Far too many teams get in the playoffs and needlessly extend the season another week. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 
Every year the first week of the playoffs is pretty much a lop sided home affair. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 



the Qualifiers are just right Sylvan Hills is a prime example of why the qualifiers is just right

tmycjy

Quote from: friscokid on November 18, 2018, 04:50:33 pm
Best thing to do 4A and below is go back to 8 conferences of 6 teams each and do away with the fifth seeds and the stupid byes. Top 4 seeds make it and you play till you lose.

good idea but one thing need to change u need 8 conferences but u need 8 team in each of those not 6 teams

1wildcat

In 3A , of 14 1st round games 5 were decided by 14 or less point's with no upsets 7 were decided by 30 or more points.

I think it would be of more benefit to come up with a way to make at least some of these game played at a neutral site. 3 and 4 hour bus rides seems a little much.

HGfaninTN

Quote from: game on on November 18, 2018, 01:13:46 pm
Too many teams play in the playoffs.  How do you justifiy as a point of accomplishment, competition or just old fashioned earning the berth, 5 and 6 teams making the playoffs?  Is it about making more money or giving more schools an opportunity to have a playoff experience?  I share the feeling that as many kids as can should have that thrill, but too many teams playing with losing records seems to diminish the importance of making the playoff.
I know numbers is an issue in 6 & 7A football because there are only 16 schools in each class.  Maybe a better answer there would be to extend the regular season for those two classifications.  Each 6 & 7A team could play an extra game or two in the pre-conference season.  That would extend the season and keep the end of the playoffs in line with where they are now.  Eliminate the 5th seeds in the lower division and get it back to 4 from each conference.  Of better yet to 3 and host one round of high school bowl games.  Making the playoffs a real big deal when you make it there.
When the top class had 9 teams and no playoffs, teams would play 11 or 12 games each year.   Central vs. Hall and Catholic vs NLR Ole Main would always end the season playing each other on Thanksgiving morning.  The second class from the top had playoffs, but teams played 11 regular season games.

Mulerider4Life

2A & 3A need to be trimmed back for sure. Too many teams sneaking in, only to get beat my 30 or so in the first round.

bleudog

Power rank all teams in a classification.

Outside of the top two 16 team classifications, have the top 32 teams in a classification make the playoffs (no byes and first round consists of 1 vs 32, 2 vs 31, 3 vs 30 etc with higher seed hosting the game).

A district champ would be guaranteed a playoff spot but not necessarily a high seed. It would be possible all teams from one conference and only one team from another conference would advance to post season. No need for a #2 or lower team from a weak district to take the spot from a #6 or lower in another district that is obviously a stronger team.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: bleudog on January 18, 2019, 12:19:40 pm
Power rank all teams in a classification.

Outside of the top two 16 team classifications, have the top 32 teams in a classification make the playoffs (no byes and first round consists of 1 vs 32, 2 vs 31, 3 vs 30 etc with higher seed hosting the game).

A district champ would be guaranteed a playoff spot but not necessarily a high seed. It would be possible all teams from one conference and only one team from another conference would advance to post season. No need for a #2 or lower team from a weak district to take the spot from a #6 or lower in another district that is obviously a stronger team.

Cause 0-5 is always obviously stronger than a 4-1? I could see the "power" system getting political when someone with connections doesn't make the playoffs...

bleudog

Quote from: HorseFeathers on January 18, 2019, 05:47:44 pm
Cause 0-5 is always obviously stronger than a 4-1? I could see the "power" system getting political when someone with connections doesn't make the playoffs...

Not all 0-5 teams, but SOME of them could be a better team than SOME 4-1 teams.

Whatever system that might be put into use would need to be as transparent and objective as possible.

It's possible and in use in other states.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: bleudog on January 18, 2019, 06:51:38 pm
Not all 0-5 teams, but SOME of them could be a better team than SOME 4-1 teams.

Whatever system that might be put into use would need to be as transparent and objective as possible.

It's possible and in use in other states.
I think it's Wisconsin that let's the school make their own conferences, everyone over .500 makes playoffs in their respective classes...

And Bleu, idk...there's something about taking a 3-7 school over a potential 7-3/8-2 type just because that 3-7 rode some coattails. Not like many outside of conference champs actually have a legitimate argument to be there anyway with the stats in posted earlier this year...

bleudog

Quote from: HorseFeathers on January 18, 2019, 07:57:42 pm
I think it's Wisconsin that let's the school make their own conferences, everyone over .500 makes playoffs in their respective classes...

And Bleu, idk...there's something about taking a 3-7 school over a potential 7-3/8-2 type just because that 3-7 rode some coattails. Not like many outside of conference champs actually have a legitimate argument to be there anyway with the stats in posted earlier this year...

Team A is 7-3. Their 7 wins are close wins over teams everybody else is beating easily. Their 3 losses are mercy rule losses to average teams.

Team B is 3-7. Their three wins are mercy rule wins over average teams. Their 7 losses are close loses to highly ranked teams.

Team A will play post season football as a #2 seed.

Team B is a #6 seed and heading to the hardwood.

Now neither may have a chance to go deep in the playoffs, and Team A may deserve post season time, but I'd say Team B could be favored to beat Team A if they played each other.   

Mulerider4Life

Quote from: bleudog on January 18, 2019, 10:02:08 pm
Team A is 7-3. Their 7 wins are close wins over teams everybody else is beating easily. Their 3 losses are mercy rule losses to average teams.

Team B is 3-7. Their three wins are mercy rule wins over average teams. Their 7 losses are close loses to highly ranked teams.

Team A will play post season football as a #2 seed.

Team B is a #6 seed and heading to the hardwood.

Now neither may have a chance to go deep in the playoffs, and Team A may deserve post season time, but I'd say Team B could be favored to beat Team A if they played each other.


Only in a few cases that may happen. Most of the time I think Team A still wins. Just how the cookie crumbles.

bleudog

Quote from: Mulerider4Life on January 21, 2019, 10:49:58 am
Only in a few cases that may happen. Most of the time I think Team A still wins. Just how the cookie crumbles.

A high seed from a weak conference automatically getting into the playoffs is like.


Mulerider4Life

Quote from: bleudog on January 21, 2019, 11:13:52 am
A high seed from a weak conference automatically getting into the playoffs is like.



I think if you try to mess with it too much it gets too complicated. The only thing I would say is that the AAA needs to look at the average team strength/abilities and realign if one conference/divison is too tough.

bleudog

Quote from: Mulerider4Life on January 21, 2019, 11:37:04 am
I think if you try to mess with it too much it gets too complicated. The only thing I would say is that the AAA needs to look at the average team strength/abilities and realign if one conference/divison is too tough.

If Louisiana can figure it out, playoff qualification power ranking can't be that hard. 

Performance balancing conferences sounds nice, but there's enough scheduling challenges already with teams coming in and out because of classification moves due to size.  And unfortunately, strength balancing a conference for football might make baseball or basketball out of whack.  I think conferences are going to always be geography driven as much as possible and that's the way it should be for rivalry and budget (gas and attendance) purposes, but that doesn't have to be the case in the playoffs.

Mulerider4Life

Quote from: bleudog on January 21, 2019, 12:51:41 pm
If Louisiana can figure it out, playoff qualification power ranking can't be that hard. 

Performance balancing conferences sounds nice, but there's enough scheduling challenges already with teams coming in and out because of classification moves due to size.  And unfortunately, strength balancing a conference for football might make baseball or basketball out of whack.  I think conferences are going to always be geography driven as much as possible and that's the way it should be for rivalry and budget (gas and attendance) purposes, but that doesn't have to be the case in the playoffs.

It would be up to the AAA to be humble enough to ask the LAA how they do things. My guess is the AAA is not going to.

Lumberjackfan1978

Quote from: Mulerider4Life on January 21, 2019, 01:01:55 pm
It would be up to the AAA to be humble enough to ask the LAA how they do things. My guess is the AAA is not going to.
Nope they want be that humble


HorseFeathers

Louisiana posts it online...

Believe it's 10 pts per win + 1 for every class up a team is from your class...divided by # of games

blueandwhite

Quote from: HorseFeathers on January 18, 2019, 07:57:42 pm
I think it's Wisconsin that let's the school make their own conferences, everyone over .500 makes playoffs in their respective classes...

And Bleu, idk...there's something about taking a 3-7 school over a potential 7-3/8-2 type just because that 3-7 rode some coattails. Not like many outside of conference champs actually have a legitimate argument to be there anyway with the stats in posted earlier this year...

Wisconsin does allow the schools lot more leeway in making up their own conferences.

Wisconsin takes all conference champions and all teams with .500 or better conference record  up to 224 teams.
They than take the largest 32 schools and make them Div 1, next 32 schools and make them Div 2, etc.
Next, they divide each of the seven 32 school divisions into 4 geographic base regions.
Than the coaches of the 8 schools in each of the regions meet and seed their region.

There is a possibility that 1 conference could have 3 or 4 teams scattered through 2 or 3 different divisions when it comes playoff time.

Lions84


bleudog


HorseFeathers

Ah I forgot the s.o.s part. I don't have the time like I used to or I'd use it to see what arkansas might have looked like this year

game on

More than 4 teams from an eight team conference is not earning a spot, it's being given one. 

we_hate_the_band

Quote from: bleudog on January 18, 2019, 10:02:08 pm
Team A is 7-3. Their 7 wins are close wins over teams everybody else is beating easily. Their 3 losses are mercy rule losses to average teams.

Team B is 3-7. Their three wins are mercy rule wins over average teams. Their 7 losses are close loses to highly ranked teams.

Team A will play post season football as a #2 seed.

Team B is a #6 seed and heading to the hardwood.

Now neither may have a chance to go deep in the playoffs, and Team A may deserve post season time, but I'd say Team B could be favored to beat Team A if they played each other.

And the next thing you know, Sylvan Hills is in the semis.

Sweet Feet

Keep the subjectivity out of playoffs. We don't need power rankings and bias to ruin the integrity of high school football like it does college football.

Combine the 7A and 6A to make the old 5A, take the top 4 teams in each conference and make it a 16 team playoffs, much like 5A now

4A, 3A, and 2A, There are 144 teams that make up these classes together. Divide it by 4 9-team conferences. 4 conferences of 9 teams in all 3 classes. Take the top 4 and they also have a 16 team playoff.

Boom, problems all solved. It's that simple.

bleudog

Quote from: Sweet Feet on March 04, 2019, 08:49:30 am
Keep the subjectivity out of playoffs. We don't need power rankings and bias to ruin the integrity of high school football like it does college football.

Combine the 7A and 6A to make the old 5A, take the top 4 teams in each conference and make it a 16 team playoffs, much like 5A now

4A, 3A, and 2A, There are 144 teams that make up these classes together. Divide it by 4 9-team conferences. 4 conferences of 9 teams in all 3 classes. Take the top 4 and they also have a 16 team playoff.

Boom, problems all solved. It's that simple.

Playoff invitations by geographic district performance alone still runs the risk of teams from weak districts getting in and better teams from strong districts heading to the hardwood.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: bleudog on March 04, 2019, 09:15:53 am
Playoff invitations by geographic district performance alone still runs the risk of teams from weak districts getting in and better teams from strong districts heading to the hardwood.


Life isn't fair 🤷

bleudog

Quote from: HorseFeathers on March 04, 2019, 09:17:32 am
Life isn't fair 🤷

Especially when those who benefit from the unfairness are in the majority and get to vote on the rules. 

Some district's lower seeds might as well be participation trophies; some team has to finish there.  ;)

Dayton Kitchens

In regards to power rankings I think back to one year when Lou Holtz coached Notre Dame.    It got to the end of the regular football season and Holtz was arguing that Notre Dame should be given national champion consideration because they played so strong a schedule.


The Fighting Irish's record was 7-5 at that point.

Lions84

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 11, 2018, 08:16:46 am
I suspect this is tossed out each year so why should this year be any different. 

Look at the results from week 1 in the playoffs.  Far too many teams get in the playoffs and needlessly extend the season another week. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 
Every year the first week of the playoffs is pretty much a lop sided home affair. 
Trim the playoff qualifiers in half. 



It all about AAA making money!

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