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Mtn Home FILLED (Bryan Mattox)

Started by Bomber_Believer, June 06, 2017, 12:55:30 pm

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no mascot

Does the same strength coach that works the football team also work the soccer team? Cuz if that's the case the strength coach is just going though the motions.

Even if it's a different coach they are going through the motions if they have he same workouts for football and soccer.

purpleswag

Quote from: no mascot on July 06, 2017, 09:04:18 am
To think that displays complete disregard for all other sports within the program. That nonsense is 100% why football should not have control over the strength and conditioning of all athletes during the offseason.

The joke to that is that communities get duped ito believing that a kid that plays football and basketball is better off in the football offseason.

Keep bench pressing and dead lifting as much weight as you can kids. Being an explosive athlete is overrated...

To be clear... Are you saying that football coaches are not interested in having exsplosive athletes?

purpleswag

Quote from: B.G. on July 06, 2017, 12:10:17 pm
This would be where I will strongly disagree.  Obviously some overlap but no way weight work and conditioning is unilaterally the same across all sports.  I don't see an OL doing all the same things as a PG.

Sport specific work no. In the weight room it would look fairly similar. I saw a South Carolina baseball workout video a few years ago and they were deadlifting and bench pressing and squatting. I also say that it wasn't any Tammy weight either! This was after they had just won I think there 2nd national title? There is a lot of ignorance being thrown around in this thread

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

First of all, I said nothing of conditioning.  All sports are different for conditioning, but I don't think most football programs implement conditioning until summer anyways. 

I'm curious what lifts will hurt a baseball, basketball, or soccer player?  Sure, you can adjust the weight and reps for those guys if necessary, but what lifts should those guys avoid? 

I understand there is not a single workout that fits every athlete in every sport.  But can we at least address the question above so I have a reference to why you guys are up and arms about me thinking a basketball player would benefit from an offseason in football?

spacesorlaces

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on July 06, 2017, 06:32:24 pm
First of all, I said nothing of conditioning.  All sports are different for conditioning, but I don't think most football programs implement conditioning until summer anyways. 

I'm curious what lifts will hurt a baseball, basketball, or soccer player?  Sure, you can adjust the weight and reps for those guys if necessary, but what lifts should those guys avoid? 

I understand there is not a single workout that fits every athlete in every sport.  But can we at least address the question above so I have a reference to why you guys are up and arms about me thinking a basketball player would benefit from an offseason in football?

+1 Squat,  bench and dead are not sports-specific.  Spring Football does not, in most cases,  interfere with other sports. Usually in Athetic Dept policy manual that sports in season take precedence

no mascot

Ooh we're getting sensitive all of a sudden! Here I'll break this down so I don't seem so ignorant. I would say that the #1 football strength program going since forever is BFS. So I'm going to use that as the example (I don't care if you use another system btw so save yourself some effort. To do that program in its entirety is very much time dependent. That is time in which skills are not developed. Unlike football, almost every other sport's success is dependent upon having the ball in use to develop said skills. That cannot happen while spending large amounts of time in the weight room. Furthermore, it is becoming more and more widely understood that explosiveness is developed through fast movements through the range of motion. This can be performed with added resistance to develop strength. Say what you want but a 500 pound deadlift is going to develop an athlete with lead in their but, which is great for a lineman, but not for a kid trying to play above the rim. So to say that high weight low rep strength development (which is the overwhelming norm for football programs) is best for all is nonsense.

Please don't go into the "well we don't lift like that" stuff. And I'm sure that some programs tailor the offseason strength to individual sports. But in the real world a football coach knows what pays the bills. Winning football games. And there isn't enough hours in the day to really study the world of strength development in a way to perfect a system for each sports needs.

My belief is that each sport's coach should take charge of their own athletes in developing and implementing a program that would be beneficial to them. And that athletes that perform in football as well as another sport should work with both programs in the offseason. Not just with the football program. If those other sports aren't willing or able to do so then so be it, they are probably not invested in a way that will being long term success to their program in the first place.

purpleswag

July 07, 2017, 06:51:24 am #106 Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 06:53:40 am by purpleswag
Quote from: no mascot on July 07, 2017, 01:27:03 am
Ooh we're getting sensitive all of a sudden! Here I'll break this down so I don't seem so ignorant. I would say that the #1 football strength program going since forever is BFS. So I'm going to use that as the example (I don't care if you use another system btw so save yourself some effort. To do that program in its entirety is very much time dependent. That is time in which skills are not developed. Unlike football, almost every other sport's success is dependent upon having the ball in use to develop said skills. That cannot happen while spending large amounts of time in the weight room. Furthermore, it is becoming more and more widely understood that explosiveness is developed through fast movements through the range of motion. This can be performed with added resistance to develop strength. Say what you want but a 500 pound deadlift is going to develop an athlete with lead in their but, which is great for a lineman, but not for a kid trying to play above the rim. So to say that high weight low rep strength development (which is the overwhelming norm for football programs) is best for all is nonsense.

Please don't go into the "well we don't lift like that" stuff. And I'm sure that some programs tailor the offseason strength to individual sports. But in the real world a football coach knows what pays the bills. Winning football games. And there isn't enough hours in the day to really study the world of strength development in a way to perfect a system for each sports needs.

My belief is that each sport's coach should take charge of their own athletes in developing and implementing a program that would be beneficial to them. And that athletes that perform in football as well as another sport should work with both programs in the offseason. Not just with the football program. If those other sports aren't willing or able to do so then so be it, they are probably not invested in a way that will being long term success to their program in the first place.

We used BFS when I was in school and it took maybe an hour to complete as a team. Leaving plenty of time for sport skills to be practiced.

The guy who invented BFS was the strength coach for the Utah Jazz for years so I'm willing to bet they dead lifted and still got above the rim just fine.

Also, it seems that you are assuming that OL men are the only kids deadlifting. Do you not think that the receivers and DBS are deadlifting as well? In my experience these are the kids that you see be the most explosive in any sport.

Plus what do you do with multi-sport athletes? Who's workouts do they do?

no mascot

How much time do you actually expect kids to commit in the springtime? If it's much more than an hour you're overworking your kids in the first place. That's what leads kids to burnout and overuse injuries. Slow lifts on explosive athletes trains slower athletes.

Multi sport athletes should go to multiple sports in the offseason. Trading off Daily or weekly (I believe daily).

purpleswag

Quote from: no mascot on July 07, 2017, 09:35:48 am
How much time do you actually expect kids to commit in the springtime? If it's much more than an hour you're overworking your kids in the first place. That's what leads kids to burnout and overuse injuries. Slow lifts on explosive athletes trains slower athletes.

Multi sport athletes should go to multiple sports in the offseason. Trading off Daily or weekly (I believe daily).

It's a 3 day a week workout. Leaves 2 days for sport skills and that seems like plenty in the off season. Again you have no basis for your claim that deadlifts makes people slow so I'm not going to say anything more to that and if the kids are changing sports everyday you're not going to have a lot of multi sport athletes.


Rulesman

That last sentence is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever read on FF.

ricepig

Quote from: Rulesman on July 07, 2017, 12:49:37 pm
That last sentence is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever read on FF.

Uh....Guv???

no mascot

Lol the kids shouldn't participate in multiple sports so that they WILL be multi sport athletes? Lol

Let's just be real now, football coaches don't want to lose their perch at the top of the mountain. The "we're the next sport" argument has been used to perfection in the past, but is starting to wear thin as kids begin to understand more and more the importance of skill development in other sports.

purpleswag

Quote from: Rulesman on July 07, 2017, 12:49:37 pm
That last sentence is one of the dumbest things I think I've ever read on FF.

Dumber than "football" workouts wouldn't help other athletes???? Not likely.

I was a football guy who also enjoyed playing baseball. If I had to miss football every other day because I happened to want to play another sport in the offseason I would have chosen not to play. If I feel that way I would be willing to bet there are more that feel the same.

ricepig

Truthfully, there aren't a handful of kids that could benefit from concentrating on one sport at the high school level. Occasionally there's one that has a chance for a D-I scholarship that needs the specific sport training, but it's rare. Countless college coaches have said that they like multi-sport athletes coming in, hopefully kids will continue to play several. As to the football coaches demanding "their" time, they probably lose more kids than they keep with that attitude.

no mascot

A football workout is better than not working out at all. But it's not as good as a workout tailored around sport specific movements.

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

No mascot ~  The trainer for Jamaican sprinters disagrees as he says that deep squats and dead lifts is the #1 thing athletes can do to become faster and more explosive. Also,  Lebron,  Curry,  Westbrook, et al would also disagree with you as top NBA players (and likely almost every NBA players)  dead lifts...and many do so on game days.   You'll see similar workout regiments with baseball players, and yes,  even bench pressing. If the guys who play those sports at the highest level have a similar workout to high school football players,  then why do we have such an aversion to it for high school basketball and baseball players?

gameoflife

Daddys are always telling their baseball and basketball sons that weight training will mess up your swing, pitching, or shot.  You are so correct that every pro athlete lifts and lifts hard. Professional track athlets, sprinters included lift heavy.  Oh, and women.

no mascot

You guys are saying that 3 days a week usain bolt is in the weight room lifting 3 sets of 3 at 90% of his max?! I'm sure he does that right before he goes and completes his mile run. You're taking the actions that these pro athletes do SOMETIMES and using it as a reasoning for kids needing to do it all the time.

purpleswag

Quote from: no mascot on July 07, 2017, 06:40:01 pm
You guys are saying that 3 days a week usain bolt is in the weight room lifting 3 sets of 3 at 90% of his max?! I'm sure he does that right before he goes and completes his mile run. You're taking the actions that these pro athletes do SOMETIMES and using it as a reasoning for kids needing to do it all the time.

At least we are giving actual evidence, contrary to your opinion, of college level and elite level athletes in the sports that you say wouldn't benefit from doing certain lifts actually doing those lifts with lots of weight.

I don't recall anybody saying anything about 3x3 at 90% either

no mascot

I'm trying to address your side of the conversation. You keep glossing over the fact that athletes need to perform sport specific movements. This is getting tedious.

purpleswag

Quote from: no mascot on July 07, 2017, 09:13:00 pm
I'm trying to address your side of the conversation. You keep glossing over the fact that athletes need to perform sport specific movements. This is getting tedious.

Actually I addressed that. However, that is not the debate. Sport specific movements are very important but you were originally saying that football workouts weren't good for other athletes.

Plus you are making major assumptions about what "football" lifting is. We used BFS when I was in school and its not 3x3 at 90% all of the time. In fact its not that very much at all as I remember.

If you're one who believes that getting stronger is bad for baseball and basketball players then so be it. But when in was in school the basketball coach didn't step foot in the weight room. And nobody lifted unless they played football because none of the other coaches brought their players in.

Maybe its not that the football team is the dictators of the weight room but they HAVE to run it by default. This is of course my opinion based on one small high school that I have witnessed. I do feel that if it happened there then its happening in other school.

no mascot

That's not the case everywhere.

zebradynasty

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on July 07, 2017, 05:31:14 pm
No mascot ~  The trainer for Jamaican sprinters disagrees as he says that deep squats and dead lifts is the #1 thing athletes can do to become faster and more explosive. Also,  Lebron,  Curry,  Westbrook, et al would also disagree with you as top NBA players (and likely almost every NBA players)  dead lifts...and many do so on game days.   You'll see similar workout regiments with baseball players, and yes,  even bench pressing. If the guys who play those sports at the highest level have a similar workout to high school football players,  then why do we have such an aversion to it for high school basketball and baseball players?


I'm kinda shocked that in this day and age there is still a debate that ALL athletes need weight training. Now how much, how often, how heavy vary from sport to sport. But if you want to improve an athletes explosiveness and speed there are certain lifts that are universal. I do realize there are some alternative forms of training besides weights but for the most part, weights are the most efficient way to train a lot of athletes at one time at the high school level.

Coach is right if the professionals do it and we can see the results...who are we to argue at the high school level. ALL high school athletes need weight training, girls and boys period. If the school can't accommodate that many athletes training then the school needs to address it not AAA. If the school administration is allowing the football coach to hog the weight room that's an adminstration problem not a AAA problem.

no mascot


Moonshiner

Couldn't sleep, and joining the conversation late in the game but...
My two cents....High School kids aren't professional athletes, with nothing else to do during the day except lift weights.  They aren't grown men either.
When does a kid get to be a kid these days? Football in the fall.  Basketball in the winter. Baseball/track in the spring.  Then each coach starts pressuring these young men to either lift weights every day, or get their shots up. There's summer baseball, summer basketball (often AAU and High School team camps).  7 on 7 camps. 
It has to wear their bodies out.
I realize that doesn't have much to do with this argument, so back on track.
A lot more basketball coaches are lifting weights these days.  But their focus will be more on the movements specific to that sport.  Adding mass is not as important for a basketball player.  His skill set has to be worked on daily.  That's time spent more effectively. 

Moonshiner

Quote from: HorseFeathers on June 28, 2017, 07:03:32 am
As bad as mountain home has been recently....having good numbers and players committed to playing could be considered trending up...

And by recently do you mean the majority of the last 20 years?  Not trying to be mean.

gameoflife

There is no sport that weight training will harm.  If a basketball player is afraid of messing up his shot, simply go shoot the ball after a weight workout, pretty simple.  Football coaches want their athletes to lift because a sport such as football requires a physically stronger, tougher, athlete because of the extreme contact of the game.  It's to help win games, sure, but also to help protect the athletes.  For other sports its the same but to differing levels.  Sport specific, is good and it's important but any weight training is better than none.   I think sometimes the attitude that its not a good thing comes from ignorance, misunderstanding, possibly some laziness and certainly the "way we always did it". 

Moonshiner

Quote from: gameoflife on July 10, 2017, 09:44:42 am
There is no sport that weight training will harm.  If a basketball player is afraid of messing up his shot, simply go shoot the ball after a weight workout, pretty simple.  Football coaches want their athletes to lift because a sport such as football requires a physically stronger, tougher, athlete because of the extreme contact of the game.  It's to help win games, sure, but also to help protect the athletes.  For other sports its the same but to differing levels.  Sport specific, is good and it's important but any weight training is better than none.   I think sometimes the attitude that its not a good thing comes from ignorance, misunderstanding, possibly some laziness and certainly the "way we always did it".

Or It could come from a philosophical difference of opinion.

zebradynasty

Quote from: Moonshiner on July 10, 2017, 09:51:23 am
Or It could come from a philosophical difference of opinion.

Athletic Training is a science

gameoflife

Specificity of exercise deals with the sport specific workout regimen.  Pinpoint the most beneficial exercises and training methods to maximize results based on time.  Idea has been around a long time and it is based on science.

Moonshiner

Quote from: gameoflife on July 10, 2017, 10:28:54 am
Specificity of exercise deals with the sport specific workout regimen.  Pinpoint the most beneficial exercises and training methods to maximize results based on time.  Idea has been around a long time and it is based on science.

I understand that but there are still differences in philosophy of the application of said sciences. 

Moonshiner

Quote from: zebradynasty on July 10, 2017, 10:02:53 am
Athletic Training is a science

So is shoeing horses.  Bet you didn't know that one 🤓

Ball Hawk

Quote from: ricepig on July 07, 2017, 03:17:02 pm
Truthfully, there aren't a handful of kids that could benefit from concentrating on one sport at the high school level. Occasionally there's one that has a chance for a D-I scholarship that needs the specific sport training, but it's rare. Countless college coaches have said that they like multi-sport athletes coming in, hopefully kids will continue to play several. As to the football coaches demanding "their" time, they probably lose more kids than they keep with that attitude.

There are ZERO high school level kids that need to specialize on one sport, ZERO.

ricepig

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 03:33:29 pm
There are ZERO high school level kids that need to specialize on one sport, ZERO.

Debatable, each situation is different, but a blanket answer would say zero.

Brian G

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 03:33:29 pm
There are ZERO high school level kids that need to specialize on one sport, ZERO.
Some kids only like one sport.

Opportunity should exist to do more, but let's not force a kid into another sport he doesn't want.

Ball Hawk

Quote from: ricepig on July 15, 2017, 04:01:26 pm
Debatable, each situation is different, but a blanket answer would say zero.

I don't think it's debatable. Name one situation where a high school athlete needed to focus on one sport to get to college or pros.


Quote from: B.G. on July 15, 2017, 05:18:16 pm
Some kids only like one sport.

Opportunity should exist to do more, but let's not force a kid into another sport he doesn't want.

No one said they wanted to "force" a kid to play multiple sports. That's not even what is being discussed. The point someone tried to make was that some kids should specialize in one sport. Parents and idiotic high school coaches are the only ones that ever want a kid to specialize in one sport.

College coaches will take the multi sport guy every time, I promise you this.

ricepig

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 05:28:28 pm
I don't think it's debatable. Name one situation where a high school athlete needed to focus on one sport to get to college or pros.

College coaches will take the multi sport guy every time, I promise you this.
I realize most college coaches say that, they almost all quickly make them choose to play one sport for them in college. I'm not going to waste my time looking for a particular person, but I guarantee you some kid didn't play a second sport his Sr and got a swimming, baseball, hockey, golf, football, or some other sport scholarship by being focusing on his sport of choice.

Brian G

July 15, 2017, 05:48:55 pm #137 Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 06:25:21 pm by B.G.
Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 05:28:28 pm
College coaches will take the multi sport guy every time, I promise you this.
We're not really disagreeing only saying.

But, we know there are exceptions to the statement quoted.  Some kids are extremely better due to a single sport.

But I repeat that the dual sport thing is great as long as a coach truly allows a kid a chance to get off season work in for both sports.

Ball Hawk

Quote from: ricepig on July 15, 2017, 05:41:08 pm
I realize most college coaches say that, they almost all quickly make them choose to play one sport for them in college. I'm not going to waste my time looking for a particular person, but I guarantee you some kid didn't play a second sport his Sr and got a swimming, baseball, hockey, golf, football, or some other sport scholarship by being focusing on his sport of choice.


The reason why football players only play football in college is because of the amount of film, meetings, workouts, study groups, etc they are required to fill. It has nothing to do with a coaching wanting them to only play that sport. We were always allowed to play any and all intramural sports.

Your guarantee doesn't really hold much water when you make a blanket statement.


And just so you know, college coaches look at the big 4 when recruiting football players. Football, basketball, baseball, and track. There are certain skill sets in those sports that translate to football.

ricepig

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 05:52:24 pm

The reason why football players only play football in college is because of the amount of film, meetings, workouts, study groups, etc they are required to fill. It has nothing to do with a coaching wanting them to only play that sport. We were always allowed to play any and all intramural sports.

Your guarantee doesn't really hold much water when you make a blanket statement.


And just so you know, college coaches look at the big 4 when recruiting football players. Football, basketball, baseball, and track. There are certain skill sets in those sports that translate to football.

We aren't just talking about football players.....

Ball Hawk

I was. Sorry the facts get in the way of your narrative?

ricepig

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 16, 2017, 01:22:32 am
I was. Sorry the facts get in the way of your narrative?

Fact is, you can't prove a player didn't improve his chances for a scholarship by concentrating on one sport in high school.

Ball Hawk

Quote from: ricepig on July 16, 2017, 07:58:22 am
Fact is, you can't prove a player didn't improve his chances for a scholarship by concentrating on one sport in high school.

That door swings both ways pig. You can name me a well known professional athlete in the big 4 that only played one sport in high school......I'll wait.

zebradynasty

Not sure I understand the argument. Are you saying that athletes that concentrate on one sport in high school have a less chance of signing with major colleges than high school athletes that were multi-sport?

ricepig

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 16, 2017, 12:56:13 pm
That door swings both ways pig. You can name me a well known professional athlete in the big 4 that only played one sport in high school......I'll wait.

I don't even have to look it up Bobby Portis and Corliss Williamson only played basketball, I'd be willing to bet, lots of guys played only one sport. Bryce Harper??

Ball Hawk

Quote from: zebradynasty on July 16, 2017, 01:41:37 pm
Not sure I understand the argument. Are you saying that athletes that concentrate on one sport in high school have a less chance of signing with major colleges than high school athletes that were multi-sport?

Safe to say you are right and don't understand what I said.

Brian G

Quote from: ricepig on July 16, 2017, 03:53:28 pm
I don't even have to look it up Bobby Portis and Corliss Williamson only played basketball, I'd be willing to bet, lots of guys played only one sport. Bryce Harper??
Monk once he got to 10th at Bentonville.


Brian G

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 16, 2017, 03:57:35 pm
Safe to say you are right and don't understand what I said.
Do you?

no mascot

On second thought I think I'll stay away from 6a football. It is a silly place.

zebradynasty

Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 16, 2017, 03:57:35 pm
Safe to say you are right and don't understand what I said.

The real question is do YOU understand what you said?


Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 05:28:28 pm
I don't think it's debatable. Name one situation where a high school athlete needed to focus on one sport to get to college or pros.


Quote from: Ball Hawk on July 15, 2017, 05:28:28 pm
No one said they wanted to "force" a kid to play multiple sports. That's not even what is being discussed. The point someone tried to make was that some kids should specialize in one sport. Parents and idiotic high school coaches are the only ones that ever want a kid to specialize in one sport.

College coaches will take the multi sport guy every time, I promise you this.

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