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Concerns about the growing trend of playing long distance opponents

Started by sevenof400, September 04, 2016, 08:44:31 am

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sevenof400

Foreword: The next two games for 5A Pulaski Academy are at Salt Lake City, Utah and at McCracken County, KY.  While Pulaski Academy is certainly not the only team to schedule away games of such distance and against higher profile opponents, it should raise some concerns.  This topic is started for the purpose of addressing that issue for all Arkansas High School teams in all sports.

Only because I primarily follow 5A schools did I notice the next two games for Pulaski Academy are the road games noted above.  Again, let me be clear I am not singling out Pulaski Academy here because an increasing number of other teams schedule games like this as well.  But at first glance (and even after some thought on the matter), there would seem to be a slew of potential issues that may have their roots in a school pursuing games like this.  Consider the following: 
   
First of all, there is the matter of missing additional class time.  Games like this will likely require an extra day of missed class for both trips.  Some may say this is no big deal, but it does run counter to the purpose of a high school education.  Given the trends and developments in distance education, students may not have to miss class at all as long as the team travel plans can schedule time with suitable internet access...   

Who is footing the travel bills for these games?  Some may say that if the school is handling the bills, and ensuring all players can go on the trip then what is the harm?  As a taxpayer, I would have considerable concern that school funds were used for such a game.  The money used in making these trips could easily fund additional education resources which may have a significant impact in the classroom (which is, after all, the primary goal of a high school education).  What does it say about a school that will fund trips like this for their football or basketball teams, but allow their classrooms to have unaddressed fundamental needs?   

Now I can hear the first reaction to the previous point almost as I type it - Pulaski Academy is a private school, and classroom needs do not go unaddressed.  There are no taxpayer funds spent here, so what's your problem?   

As an aside, it is not my intention of resurrecting the private vs public debate here (although it should be recognized that a private school has a higher likelihood of arranging such a game/trip) because public schools have sent their sports teams on such trips as well (although it is more likely in basketball than football).

Are such games creating an advantage for the schools that schedule them?  Do such games create an influence in drawing athletes to attend the school?  Are such games hurting the overall quality of competition in Arkansas - especially for the teams that do not have the resources to play such games? 

I am curious if others see this as a growing issue that should be addressed.

rpr

You bring up many issues but I will only address one, the issue of resources. I was a baseball coach at Mills High School and in 1990 we had a very talented team returning. I wanted to provide as much exposure for the young men as possible so we scheduled a 3 day tournament in Longview, TX that invited quality teams from Arkansas, Texas, and Oklahoma. At the time teams in the Pulaski County School District received no funds from the school district and were expected to run programs from participation fees, fundraising, and booster clubs. Our team raised the money for the tournament through fundraising in the fall and the 24 players that traveled were provided transportation, lodging, and $20 per day for meals. Through hard work I believe that teams can find the resources necessary to accomplish their goals and learn a valuable lesson in both goal setting and accountability in achieving those goals.

Brian G

Basketball teams travel far away for tournaments.
Baseball teams travel far away for tournaments.
I know Fayetteville's volleyball team is going to a prestigious event in Vegas.

Teams have budgets provided by the school.  When it takes extra money it's raised by booster clubs or often the money comes from the event they are participating in.

Education takes many forms.  I see it no differently than trips taken by band, choir or a foreign language club.

sevenof400

Quote from: rpr on September 04, 2016, 09:20:51 am
You bring up many issues but I will only address one, the issue of resources. I was a baseball coach at Mills High School and in 1990 we had a very talented team returning. I wanted to provide as much exposure for the young men as possible so we scheduled a 3 day tournament in Longview, TX that invited quality teams from Arkansas, Texas, and Oklahoma. At the time teams in the Pulaski County School District received no funds from the school district and were expected to run programs from participation fees, fundraising, and booster clubs. Our team raised the money for the tournament through fundraising in the fall and the 24 players that traveled were provided transportation, lodging, and $20 per day for meals. Through hard work I believe that teams can find the resources necessary to accomplish their goals and learn a valuable lesson in both goal setting and accountability in achieving those goals.

RPR,

I certainly see many benefits from the scenario you describe - and hats off to you for your role in that effort. As you (and BG) point out, there are educational opportunities outside the classroom that provide valuable life lessons. 

As you note though, your trip was to Texas - which makes sense because a wide variety of competition levels can be found there.  That is part of my concern with the PA trip - why all the way to Utah?  It seems like a goal of finding a suitable level of competition could be achieved closer to home, at less cost, and decreasing the amount of class time missed. 

But the question that still hangs out there is this - do such trips give these schools an advantage in attracting athletes?  I can see the rationale for Arkansas teams to travel to the border states to find the right level of competition.  Utah? Florida? Kentucky? That's a bit too much IMO and the latent effect of such trips should be considered in the context of how they much effect the competition in Arkansas high school athletics.   

ricepig

Quote from: B.G. on September 04, 2016, 09:56:40 am
Basketball teams travel far away for tournaments.
Baseball teams travel far away for tournaments.
I know Fayetteville's volleyball team is going to a prestigious event in Vegas.

Teams have budgets provided by the school.  When it takes extra money it's raised by booster clubs or often the money comes from the event they are participating in.

Education takes many forms.  I see it no differently than trips taken by band, choir or a foreign language club.

Correct, Jonesboro's band went to Hawaii, Art Club went to NYC, Choir to NYC, Dance/Cheer to Orlando, etc......it's great that these kids get to experience so much that the vast majority wouldn't have had without these opportunities.

Longfellow

Most band, choir, and club trips like those you mentioned happen during the summer. And they definitely aren't funded by the school

sevenof400

Let's address this first:

Quote from: B.G. on September 04, 2016, 09:56:40 am
Basketball teams travel far away for tournaments.
Baseball teams travel far away for tournaments.
I know Fayetteville's volleyball team is going to a prestigious event in Vegas.

As long as taxpayer money is not supporting these trips, it becomes harder to oppose such trips on that basis alone. 
And I'd even agree with the notion that most 7A schools likely have the resources (booster groups, etc) to help fund such trips if the school and coach wanted to play in such an event. 

But as you move down in classification, it stands to reason other schools are less likely to be able match such trips as the upcoming Utah trip.  Doesn't this have the potential to further imbalance the competitive environment in the lower (than 7A) classifications mostly? 

Quote from: B.G. on September 04, 2016, 09:56:40 am
Teams have budgets provided by the school.  When it takes extra money it's raised by booster clubs or often the money comes from the event they are participating in.

I do recall the days of the King Cotton basketball tournament (perhaps it is still around..) and IIRC, the tournament did either pay or help with participating teams travel expenses.  I'm sure many other similar tournaments around the country do the same.  And the reality is a good number - an overwhelming majority - of Arkansas teams will never be invited to such tournaments because our talent level just doesn't justify it. 

But again, as you move into the lower than 7A classifications, participation in these types of basketball tournaments and football trips have a higher potential for attracting athletes to these schools much more so than it would in the 7A ranks IMO

Let me be clear on this - if PA has the resources to make this happen, good for them (and their student - athletes).  But there is a collateral effect here that should be considered.   

Quote from: B.G. on September 04, 2016, 09:56:40 am
Education takes many forms.  I see it no differently than trips taken by band, choir or a foreign language club.

I'd agree - as long as the funding provided from taxpayer sources is as equitable as possible.  And this discussion is not meant to suggest that an inequity in funding exists..

sevenof400

Quote from: ricepig on September 04, 2016, 10:18:48 am
Correct, Jonesboro's band went to Hawaii, Art Club went to NYC, Choir to NYC, Dance/Cheer to Orlando, etc......it's great that these kids get to experience so much that the vast majority wouldn't have had without these opportunities.

I strongly agree with the second half of this point.

But I don't believe the competitive environment between bands, choirs or art clubs has quite the reach and ramifications as compared to sports teams.   

Oldbadger

Ah, the age old situation of the haves and the have nots.  Has always been with us and always will be.  We can only look at those schools who have the resources to do those things and wish, "if that could only be me", but alas, for most of us it is only a dream.  But, it can make all of us better in the game of life, by motivating us to work harder and smarter so that, maybe, we can provide our children an opportunity to enjoy the fruits of our labor, so that we can either move to those schools, or understand that, maybe it isn't as important in the long run, as we think it is. We can only expect and demand that our tax money be used equitably across the board for things such as this.  As far as a competitive edge, I don't expect that it will change anything.  The edge was there all along, and these trips are just for fun and used as a reward for the parents of the participants.  So, maybe it is a non-issue, as far as competitiveness is concerned. But for the most of us who are the "havenots" we secretly wish for failure of the "haves" solely because of their status and root for those others to beat them to show that having all those resources weren't important after all.  Life goes on! lol.

PA Dad

You raise some interesting points.

Missing class time is a valid concern.  Of course, that argument applies when any school has to leave at noon for a three hour bus ride to get to a game in Arkansas.  And, that classwork can usually be made up fairly easily.

Using taxpayer money is also a legitimate concern.  Of course, that concern doesn't apply to PA.  And, as other posters have noted, booster clubs probably foot the bill at public schools.  And, if a school can use taxpayer money to send a choir to a competition in St. Louis, why treat sports differently?

Do the games create a competitive advantage?  The travel out of state certainly does not.  The travel probably does the opposite.  That's why everyone likes the home field advantage.

The level of competition can make a team better and create a competitive advantage.  All good coaches want to play strong teams in non conference play.  Teams like Greenwood, Fayetteville, Bentonville, and other top teams play difficult OOC teams every year.

I know Coach Kelley wants to play the best teams possible.  I haven't talked to him about this, but I'll bet you a large pizza and a pitcher of beer that he would love to play Greenwood, PB, NLR, Fayetteville, Batesville or similar quality teams.  But, most of those teams have traditional rivals they play every year and do not have room to schedule PA.

What if all of PA's OOC games this year were at PA?  Would you still have the same concerns?  Is it the travel or the competitive advantage that concerns you most?

I agree with your point that not all schools have the resources to travel like PA does.  What is your solution?  Should all schools be given a limit to the miles they can travel to play a game?  Or should we give all schools, public and private, an equal budget they can't exceed?

Inequality of resources is and always has been a fact of life.  That's true among schools regardless of the travel issue.

I like the discussion.

ricepig

Quote from: sevenof400 on September 04, 2016, 10:45:26 am
I strongly agree with the second half of this point.

But I don't believe the competitive environment between bands, choirs or art clubs has quite the reach and ramifications as compared to sports teams.

Maybe you need to get out of Vilonia more often? I read on here that Paragould had 450 in 7-12 in their band program, a lot more than played sports for them.

sevenof400

Quote from: Oldbadger on September 04, 2016, 12:03:41 pm
Ah, the age old situation of the haves and the have nots.  Has always been with us and always will be.  We can only look at those schools who have the resources to do those things and wish, "if that could only be me", but alas, for most of us it is only a dream.

I agree we will always have a disparity between schools just as we have between people.  We can't equalize these things. 

Acknowledging this, I am still left to wonder if there isn't a better way to group the competition so that teams of equal (or as close to equal as possible) means are competing against each other.  Let me come back to this point in a moment.

Quote from: Oldbadger on September 04, 2016, 12:03:41 pm
But, it can make all of us better in the game of life, by motivating us to work harder and smarter so that, maybe, we can provide our children an opportunity to enjoy the fruits of our labor, so that we can either move to those schools, or understand that, maybe it isn't as important in the long run, as we think it is.

Fully agree with this.

Quote from: Oldbadger on September 04, 2016, 12:03:41 pm
We can only expect and demand that our tax money be used equitably across the board for things such as this.  As far as a competitive edge, I don't expect that it will change anything.  The edge was there all along, and these trips are just for fun and used as a reward for the parents of the participants.  So, maybe it is a non-issue, as far as competitiveness is concerned.

Not so sure on this point, while I do agree about the existence of an edge for those families with more means (more assets) at their disposal - an edge that can never be equalized - I do still see it as an issue that can (and does IMO) effect competitiveness. 

But what can we do about it? 

Maybe the problem is in the method used to classify schools.  The 3 year average of the 10th/11th/12th grade classes compares student size only.  It seems that consideration may be inadequate to classify schools.

Is there a better way?  Can another objective measure be introduced to help classify schools so that the likelihood of competitive balance is increased?  And if competitive balance is increased, would teams (not just PA, but all teams) benefit?  I think that answer is yes, but the question remains of how to properly classify teams.

beach bum

A free trip to California, Hawaii, or Florida? Where do I sign up?

ricepig


beach bum

Quote from: ricepig on September 04, 2016, 08:04:47 pm
Who said it was free?

If you're the kids it is... I do know some of them volunteer time like cleaning up the arena after a Hog basketball etc. and save the money for a lump some trip. I have heard a few schools doing that which is a clever idea ... it was more a joke. But I guess I see it as a good thing because some kids especially at public schools probably never get to travel if they aren't growing up in a certain type of home. I see those situations as beneficial.

Complete Biased PoV

If anyone is worried about classes being missed for a once a year game out of state, I pose this question.  Do you also have a problem with all AAA sanctioned state tournaments starting on weekdays at 10am?

Let's look at basketball:  20** Basketball State Tournament hosted in Paragould (like 2 years ago). Say Magnolia plays the 10:00 game Tuesday morning, well they probably got out of school early on Monday to make the trip up and get in a hotel.  Now say they win, they will play on Thursday or Friday usually also at 10:00am, so Wednesday you are staying in Jonesboro missing school.  If you have the 2-day break you could go home and back but most schools don't.  If you win on Thursday you play semis on Saturday.  So there is a chance a team misses up to 4 1/2 days of school for the State basketball tournament.

We had a rain delay during the state tournament when I was playing baseball.  I think we stayed 2 nights between games because we didn't know when the fields would be playable. If memory serves me right we ended up missing 4-5 days of school.

Lions84

It is a non issue with me cause the past 6 years I spent with my wife countless ours fund raising for our Band and Cheer squads.

Maynard G Krebs

Quote from: Complete Biased PoV on September 05, 2016, 12:31:23 am
If anyone is worried about classes being missed for a once a year game out of state, I pose this question.  Do you also have a problem with all AAA sanctioned state tournaments starting on weekdays at 10am?

Let's look at basketball:  20** Basketball State Tournament hosted in Paragould (like 2 years ago). Say Magnolia plays the 10:00 game Tuesday morning, well they probably got out of school early on Monday to make the trip up and get in a hotel.  Now say they win, they will play on Thursday or Friday usually also at 10:00am, so Wednesday you are staying in Jonesboro missing school.  If you have the 2-day break you could go home and back but most schools don't.  If you win on Thursday you play semis on Saturday.  So there is a chance a team misses up to 4 1/2 days of school for the State basketball tournament.

We had a rain delay during the state tournament when I was playing baseball.  I think we stayed 2 nights between games because we didn't know when the fields would be playable. If memory serves me right we ended up missing 4-5 days of school.

Those must have been some crucial days you missed PoV.  Now I have my explanation. ;)

Red Devil Alum

Interesting topic, and I appreciate the manner in which you have raised it.  Using PA's football trip as an example, let's also look at other PA extracurriculars.  The band takes a trip this year to Chicago for a camp during the school year.  The Model UN goes to NYC each year during the school year. Yearbook goes to Dallas.

So it is a staple of the school that groups are allowed to travel for enrichment. It would seem odd to tell the football team they can not travel because some other teams they play may not be able to afford it, or may not even be interested in such a trip.

ricepig

Quote from: Complete Biased PoV on September 05, 2016, 12:31:23 am
If anyone is worried about classes being missed for a once a year game out of state, I pose this question.  Do you also have a problem with all AAA sanctioned state tournaments starting on weekdays at 10am?

Let's look at basketball:  20** Basketball State Tournament hosted in Paragould (like 2 years ago). Say Magnolia plays the 10:00 game Tuesday morning, well they probably got out of school early on Monday to make the trip up and get in a hotel.  Now say they win, they will play on Thursday or Friday usually also at 10:00am, so Wednesday you are staying in Jonesboro missing school.  If you have the 2-day break you could go home and back but most schools don't.  If you win on Thursday you play semis on Saturday.  So there is a chance a team misses up to 4 1/2 days of school for the State basketball tournament.

We had a rain delay during the state tournament when I was playing baseball.  I think we stayed 2 nights between games because we didn't know when the fields would be playable. If memory serves me right we ended up missing 4-5 days of school.

Two years ago the 6A basketball tournament was in Siloam Springs, some teams went up early, the weather got bad, and you have a nice delay. I think Jonesboro's boys were up there 3 or 4 days before they played. No, the AAA doesn't concern themselves about school when there's money to be made.

Complete Biased PoV


Grond

Quote from: ricepig on September 04, 2016, 01:13:04 pm
Maybe you need to get out of Vilonia more often? I read on here that Paragould had 450 in 7-12 in their band program, a lot more than played sports for them.

This is correct. The Paragould "Pride" Band has 150+ on the field at halftime. They also do car washes, football game concession stand, candles, etc. It is a lesson in organization.

Grond

Back to the discussion of "Long Distance Opponents":

In so many states, such as Florida and California, there are these "powerhouse" private schools. Lots of NFL players send their kids to these schools, and the teams are likely to have 5 or more D1 commits in a season. [These teams are the high school games that are shown on ESPN the weekend before Labor Day.]

I have wondered if Pulaski Academy is headed down that path. [The path of a Big Time football high school.]

These high end teams have to travel to find competition. And in Arkansas, we just aren't used to it.

If PA goes undefeated again, I think they will almost have to move up. Very curious to see how PA performs in the 6A/7A world.

Grond

For example:  Bishop Gorman High School in Nevada. Here is a link to their football schedule:

http://www.bggaelsfootball.com/schedule

The point I am trying to make is that the "Big Time" high school sports are already doing a lot of traveling. We just aren't used to it in Arkansas.

Lions84

Yes interstate games are growing fast across the Nation I remember when it was shocking for an HS to play anyone out of state unless they were close to the border.

sevenof400

In thinking more about this subject, I recall in the not too distant past similar discussions centered around Shiloh Christian. While I cannot recall how far they (Shiloh) may have traveled for any one football game, I do find it interesting their current schedule looks like a typical Arkansas high school football schedule for their classification.  Perhaps the takeaway from this point is that over time, the ability to compete with out of state teams is short lived due to the shallow talent pool in Arkansas.  In other words, the storm will blow itself out before too long.   

dodger

I can see the complaints about putting high school football teams on a plane, but not sure why one would lump the PA at McCracken County, KY game into the same boat.  That's actually a shorter trip than at least one 6A West matchup and historically LR Central played Paducah Tilghman many times in the 50's and 60's.  I have a bigger issue actually with some of the terrible schedules and non-competitive matchups that we're seeing with some 7A Central Arkansas schools.  Travelling for a competitive game is better for the sport than seeing matchups like Cabot-LR Fair or NLR-Parkview.

Lions84

Quote from: sevenof400 on September 18, 2016, 09:09:48 am
In thinking more about this subject, I recall in the not too distant past similar discussions centered around Shiloh Christian. While I cannot recall how far they (Shiloh) may have traveled for any one football game, I do find it interesting their current schedule looks like a typical Arkansas high school football schedule for their classification.  Perhaps the takeaway from this point is that over time, the ability to compete with out of state teams is short lived due to the shallow talent pool in Arkansas.  In other words, the storm will blow itself out before too long.   

They came to the Cowboys Stadium in Arlington and got drilled by Euless Trinity as part of a Labor Day weekend event.

Made

Is it just games out of state that are of concern, what about some of the trips for playoffs? NEA baseball tourney that has teams come stay for 3-4 days while competing. Tournaments and games during spring break when the whole school is shut down, but still burning gas, holiday tourneys? Regional tourneys in basketball, baseball, and softball that may last a week, and on the other side of the state....Just not sure where we should draw a line. Lots of border towns play across the line, and is a shorter trip than half of the instate games. When Lake village was still in 4a it would have been 375 miles to gravette? just curious on lines thats all

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Made on September 22, 2016, 01:38:46 pm
Is it just games out of state that are of concern, what about some of the trips for playoffs? NEA baseball tourney that has teams come stay for 3-4 days while competing. Tournaments and games during spring break when the whole school is shut down, but still burning gas, holiday tourneys? Regional tourneys in basketball, baseball, and softball that may last a week, and on the other side of the state....Just not sure where we should draw a line. Lots of border towns play across the line, and is a shorter trip than half of the instate games. When Lake village was still in 4a it would have been 375 miles to gravette? just curious on lines thats all

Drew Central traveled to Flippin for a holiday tournament last year, and their football team just traveled to Hackett...

Lions84


Lions84

Look what AAA doing down on the 2A board some teams are traveling over 200 miles instate for a playoff game.

http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=149660.0

Brian G


AirWarren

Part of it. This year, if we make it that far, Warren goes to PG.

In 2014, en route to a state championship Warren travels to Springdale to play Shiloh.

In 2013, Warren traveled to Dardanelle.


HorseFeathers

I think lions gripe is about it being the first round...but then again I believe it was the schools that wanted to get away from regionalized first round games

Brian G


HorseFeathers

Quote from: B.G. on November 08, 2016, 06:11:11 pm
If you want a fair playoff, there has to be travel. 

Fair playoff? We can't even get the AAA to rotate a bye fairly in the lower classes lol

~WPS~

My biggest gripe is that two teams from the same conference can meet in the 2nd round in the smaller classes.

Brian G

Quote from: HorseFeathers on November 08, 2016, 06:25:47 pm
Fair playoff? We can't even get the AAA to rotate a bye fairly in the lower classes lol
Baby steps.

Conference wins and standings obviously are critical for a home game.


NEAfootball

First problem with the playoffs is it's a welfare system in which we take 6 seeds to the playoffs. We get hacked because kids whine when they don't win and pour or protest yet we reward below average 3 win teams with playoff trips. Think we are sending the right message? The first round of Arkansas high school football are exactly like tball everyone gets rewarded for playing basically.

Lions84

Quote from: NEAfootball on November 15, 2016, 01:14:05 pm
First problem with the playoffs is it's a welfare system in which we take 6 seeds to the playoffs. We get hacked because kids whine when they don't win and pour or protest yet we reward below average 3 win teams with playoff trips. Think we are sending the right message? The first round of Arkansas high school football are exactly like tball everyone gets rewarded for playing basically.

Nope they got the Idea from UIL in Texas so AAA could make more MONEY!

NEAfootball

UIL at least does a regional based playoff system and neutral fields. An your talking about 1400 teams in UIL vs 170 or so in Arkansas football. Arkansas takes almost 3/4 of the teams in football to the playoffs at least UIL its only half of the 1400 plus teams. I do completely agree it's about making money for AAA 100%

beach bum

Imagine living in Wyoming where there are only 12 to 14 teams in every classification because the state hasn't even reached 600,000 people.... Plus it is way larger than Arkansas in size. I think Wyoming is the 10th largest state in area.

Wonderdog

Quote from: beach bum on November 15, 2016, 05:45:49 pm
Imagine living in Wyoming where there are only 12 to 14 teams in every classification because the state hasn't even reached 600,000 people.... Plus it is way larger than Arkansas in size. I think Wyoming is the 10th largest state in area.
I bet they would laugh at our travel complaints!

NEAfootball

Quote from: beach bum on November 15, 2016, 05:45:49 pm
Imagine living in Wyoming where there are only 12 to 14 teams in every classification because the state hasn't even reached 600,000 people.... Plus it is way larger than Arkansas in size. I think Wyoming is the 10th largest state in area.

I mean that's like saying imagine living in Iraq and saying we shouldn't complain about simple robberies lol! It doesn't make it right point is there are better solutions. If you just take out 5 & 6 seeds traveling 300 miles to get blown out you fix half the problem by not rewarding below average teams with a playoff berth.

beach bum

Quote from: NEAfootball on November 16, 2016, 01:08:19 am
I mean that's like saying imagine living in Iraq and saying we shouldn't complain about simple robberies lol! It doesn't make it right point is there are better solutions. If you just take out 5 & 6 seeds traveling 300 miles to get blown out you fix half the problem by not rewarding below average teams with a playoff berth.

Not going to lie. The first sentence was pretty funny and you did one up me. We do have school buses being robbed of football equipment in West Memphis last week so the world is becoming more and more strange haha.

NEAfootball

That situation in West Memphis was horrible! How about those kids being able to overcome that and win a playoff game on the road though!

beach bum

Quote from: NEAfootball on November 16, 2016, 10:41:51 am
That situation in West Memphis was horrible! How about those kids being able to overcome that and win a playoff game on the road though!

I wouldn't say they are favored this week, but I also think Dumas has a slight chance to upset their 2nd round opponent too. That would be a pretty neat story if they can get to the quarterfinals after the last half decade or so of not a lot of winning in Dumas. I am rooting for them to pull it off this week too.

Lions84


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