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Post your questions here about breaking ties in conference standings.

Started by sevenof400, April 19, 2015, 09:36:29 am

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sevenof400

Let's use this thread to post specific questions about breaking any conference tie for any playoff spot. 

As an example, we used this thread last year for this purpose (and the linked thread is a good read to refresh one's memory about tiebreaking procedures).

sevenof400

Let's cover the last spot in the 5A Boys Central between Sylvan Hills and Beebe (both teams currently tied for 4th in the Central)...

Disclaimer: assuming all reported scores are correct....

Beebe won the first head to head meeting 2 - 0 on April 6th
Beebe and Sylvan Hills play Tuesday at Sylvan Hills

Sylvan Hills ends with Pulaski Academy (they have sewn up the #1 seed)
Beebe ends with North Pulaski who is still fighting for the #2 seed in the Central.

If Beebe wins Tuesday, they are in.  That is the easy part.

If Sylvan Hills wins Tuesday, we need to look at the goal differential in the head to head games.

If SH wins Tuesday by 1, then loses to PA while Beebe beats North Pulaski, Beebe would be in because Beebe would hold the head to head tiebreaker on SH by goal differential in the head to head games.

If SH wins Tuesday by 2, then loses to PA while Beebe beats North Pulaski, we would need to look at goal differential across the entire conference season.  That will get a bit lengthy...let's cross that bridge after Tuesday if we need to.

If SH wins Tuesday by 3 (or more), they would claim the last playoff spot since SH would own the head to head tiebreaker on goal differential in the head to head games and (at worst) would be tied with Beebe in the standings if SH lost their final game while Beebe won theirs.   

Go Postal

Quote from: sevenof400 on April 30, 2015, 08:30:30 pm
Let's cover the last spot in the 5A Boys Central between Sylvan Hills and Beebe (both teams currently tied for 4th in the Central)...

Disclaimer: assuming all reported scores are correct....

Beebe won the first head to head meeting 2 - 0 on April 6th
Beebe and Sylvan Hills play Tuesday at Sylvan Hills

Sylvan Hills ends with Pulaski Academy (they have sewn up the #1 seed)
Beebe ends with North Pulaski who is still fighting for the #2 seed in the Central.

If Beebe wins Tuesday, they are in.  That is the easy part.

If Sylvan Hills wins Tuesday, we need to look at the goal differential in the head to head games.

If SH wins Tuesday by 1, then loses to PA while Beebe beats North Pulaski, Beebe would be in because Beebe would hold the head to head tiebreaker on SH by goal differential in the head to head games.

If SH wins Tuesday by 2, then loses to PA while Beebe beats North Pulaski, we would need to look at goal differential across the entire conference season.  That will get a bit lengthy...let's cross that bridge after Tuesday if we need to.

If SH wins Tuesday by 3 (or more), they would claim the last playoff spot since SH would own the head to head tiebreaker on goal differential in the head to head games and (at worst) would be tied with Beebe in the standings if SH lost their final game while Beebe won theirs.   
Great write-up seven.  It comes down to...
H2H of two teams, then,
Points scored between those two teams against each other, then,
Tiebreaker points of all conference games played, then if still tied,
Coin flip.

I remember when now 6A Siloam Springs and 5A Harrison boys did this.  Both were co-conference champs.  This might happen in the girls West conference this year.  LRCA and Harrison.  Maybe even between in the boys West games of Maumelle and LRCA.  We will see...

sevenof400

The LRCA and Harrison girls situation is definitely one worth taking a look at now in front of today's game....

Disclaimer: assuming all reported scores are correct....

LRCA won the 1st game 1-0.
LRCA and Harrison play today at LRCA.

Both teams have games remaining, so today's result will NOT set the seeds in the West girls.
Harrison finishes with Greenbrier and Morrilton.
LRCA finishes with Maumelle. 



If LRCA wins today, they will hold the head to head tiebreaker over Harrison AND win the #1 seed.
Today's final: LRCA 2 - Harrison 0



If Harrison wins today, we need to look at the goal differential in the head to head games.

If Harrison wins today by 1, and both teams finish tied in the standings, we would need to look at goal differential across the entire conference season (*).  I'll post more on that if today's result produces that possibility.

If Harrison wins today by 2 (or more), they will hold the head to head tiebreaker with LRCA. 

More to follow on this one....

Edit: Thanks again to the improved standings method provided by Chief, the point differential column figures the goal differential on the fly.  This means the number in the point differential column IS the calculation of goal differential across the entire conference season....

With that in mind, LRCA holds the point differential lead at this time (26 - 23) however LRCA has played one more game at this point in the season. 

CoachKJ

General question:

Teams A & B tie at the end of regulation at 2-2.

Team A defeats B on penalties 3-0

Final score is 5-2, then.

Does Team A get +3 tiebreaker points for final score or is it figured as a +1 since regulation ended in a tie?


carteri

With Beebe girls beating sylvan hills girls 2/1 is north pulaski girls guaranteed 2cnd place win or loss to BEEbe if PA girls beat sylvan hill girls friday....it gets confusing but if I understand correctly NP girls have a 4 point goal diffrental  lead and the most Beebe can get is 3 points...

Go Postal

Quote from: carteri on May 05, 2015, 07:19:49 pm
With Beebe girls beating sylvan hills girls 2/1 is north pulaski girls guaranteed 2cnd place win or loss to BEEbe if PA girls beat sylvan hill girls friday....it gets confusing but if I understand correctly NP girls have a 4 point goal diffrental  lead and the most Beebe can get is 3 points...
Let me make sure that I have this right:
Sylvan Hills are 6-3 & have 15 tb pts with this loss.
NP are 6-3 & have 16 tb pts at this time.
Beebe are 5-4 & have 12 tb pts with this win.

SHills still has to play PA.
NP still has to play BB.

Remember if two teams are tied in W/L on conference play, it goes H2H against those two teams first, then if still tied, which of the two teams scored more against each other, then if still tied, it goes to overall tb pts.
I have NP and SH at 1-1 on H2H play, but SH has more goals from the 1st game.
I have SH and BB at 1-1 on H2H play, both are tied on goals from the 1st&2nd game.
I have NP and BB at 1-0 on H2H play, NP has the more goals on the 1st game, but 2nd game still pending.

1st scenario, SH beats PA.  NP beats BB.  Both are tied in conference play.  SH gets 2nd seed due to more goals vs NP.

2nd scenario, PA beats SH.  NP beats BB.  NP gets 2nd seed due to having more wins than SH.

3rd scenario, SH beats or loses to PA.  BB beats NP.  Puts SH in 2nd, still puts NP in 3rd due to NP having more goals against BB in the 1st game AND having more overall tb pts than BB.

The best scenario for NP to get 2nd seed.  PA beats SH, NP beats BB by 3 or more.

I hope that I have put the scenarios right, but I could be wrong (58 year old brain), good luck in the playoffs for your conference.  You guys and gals have played PA. That is a great learning experience in conference.  But always remember that there are some other great teams in the other 3 5A boys/girls conferences also. ;)
One thing that I love about the playoffs, it's single elimination.  Anything can happen.  Win or lose, the experience gained for your coach/athletes/team is all that matters.

carteri

That's the hard part to figure out all 3 teams could end up 6/4....I guess it's the triangle effect...

chaoslord

This is how I understand the 3 way scenario to go, someone please correct me if I'm wrong:

PA and BB both win puts all three teams at 6-4. In that situation, they would all have split 1-1 against the other two teams. Because of that, we go to paragraph C, and keep the two best TB teams. NP is guaranteed to go through to the final tiebreaker at that point.

IF Beebe wins by 2 goals only, they are out of the running because they would have 14 tiebreaker points to SH's 15. Between NP and SH, SH would get the 2 seed and NP would get the 3 seed.

IF Beebe were to win by 3 or more, we would have to have a mini tiebreaker between SH and BB to determine the second team since they would both be level at 15 TB points. With a 3-0 win and a 1-0 loss, BB would survive. So then we check BB and NP. Both teams won a game and would have invoked the max goals rule, so tied at 3-3. This would mean that it goes to all winning conference goals, which NP would edge 16-15. NP 2 seed, BB 3 seed, SH 4 seed.

So basically if NP is going to lose they need to completely blow it  ;D (just kidding of course)

sevenof400

I just saw that interesting finish shaping up as well (Beebe, Sylvan Hills and North Pulaski in the 5A Central Girls) and I agree with Go Postal's analysis. Let me add the following:

If SH and BB finish tied in the standings, this tie would be broken by goal differential.  For a tie to occur, SH would have to lose (and therefore no additional goals toward their goal differential) and Beebe would have to win by 3 goals (or more).  Then we would move to the dreaded coin flip. (Yuck).

North Pulaski will win a 2 way tiebreaker with Beebe since NP won the first game by the max GD (which Beebe cannot overturn - only tie) and NP is 4 goals ahead on the season's GD. 

SH holds the head to head tiebreaker with NP on goal differential in the two head to head meetings. 

More to follow here.... 

sevenof400

5A Central Boys for the 4th spot is easy:

Sylvan Hills win (vs PA) OR a Beebe loss versus North Pulaski and SH is the 4th seed.

A SH loss and a Beebe win over North Pulaski and Beebe is in.

carteri

Seven if I'm correct if sylvan hills loses and beebe beats np by 3 goals or more np will still take second beebe and sylvan hills will then coin flip for 3 and 4.....all because np has 16 and the most Beebe can get is 15 which ties them with sylvan hills

sevenof400

Quote from: carteri on May 06, 2015, 03:58:30 pm
Seven if I'm correct if sylvan hills loses and beebe beats np by 3 goals or more ...

That would make the standings
NP 6-4 (16 TB points)
SH 6-4 (15 TB points)
BB 6-4 (15 TB points)

To break this 3 way tie, let's review the head to head:

North Pulaski will win a 2 way tiebreaker with Beebe since NP won the first game by the max GD (which Beebe cannot overturn - only tie) and NP is 4 goals ahead on the season's GD. 

SH holds the head to head tiebreaker with NP on goal differential in the two head to head meetings. 

BB and SH have split head to head and the Goal Differential is the same.

Conclusions:

  • Since there is no sweep of any one team by another, the three way tiebreaker process (click here for the procedure) moves to goal differential.
  • At this point, North Pulaski would be the #2 seed based on their better goal differential.
  • That leaves SH and Beebe to determine the 3 and 4 spots.  And I believe that would go to a coin flip since the two teams split the head to head by similar amounts and are tied on goal differential at 15.

Go Postal

Another interesting scenario in the 5A West Boys 1st or 2nd seed.
Maumelle and LRCA still have the last game to play against each other.

Maumelle is currently 11-0, has H2H vs LRCA 1-0 and has 1 goal over LRCA, overall TB pts is 27 pts.

LRCA is currently 10-1, lost only to Maumelle, has H2H at 0-1 and has a -1 goal against Maumelle, overall pts is 22 pts.

If Maumelle wins this game, then they would have the 1st seed and West Champs 12-0.
If LRCA wins this game, then they would share the West Champs with Maumelle at 11-1, but that would also open up a whole new can of worms for seeding.  For instance...
Maumelle and LRCA would be tied on H2H.
To get the 1st seed, LRCA needs to win by 2 or more GD.
If both teams tie on H2H, GD, then Maumelle will get the 1st seed because of TB pts.
I believe that this is right.  This should be a great game at LRCA's pitch.  Hopefully after this game, that both teams don't have any injuries going into the playoffs. ;)

Go Postal

Just heard that Clarksville beat Morriton in a makeup boys game.
So that makes the last game for Vilonia a must win game against Greenbrier to get 4th West seed.  Local Rivalry.

Clarksville 5-7, Vilonia 4-7.  Veagles have one more game to play as stated above.
If Vilonia loses against Greenbrier, the Clarksville gets the 4th seed.
If Vilonia wins against Greenbrier then, Vilonia and Clarksville on H2H are 1-1,  Vilonia has the GD and TB pts over Clarksville,  Vilona goes to the playoffs.

Side note:  No matter who goes as the 4th West seed of the 1st round of the playoffs, you will be playing S1 DeQueen.  They lost once and won once against the GOBS in the semis.  Do us West fans proud. ;D

carteri

Thanks seven and postal for all the write ups about all soccer teams, and all divisions...I wish all the teams going down to the wire, Thursday and Friday the best of luck, let's make sure no players get hurt because the big state tourney is next week..no matter what seed you may finish it has been a GREAT year of high school soccer

HP14

Quote from: Go Postal on May 06, 2015, 10:15:54 pm
Another interesting scenario in the 5A West Boys 1st or 2nd seed.
Maumelle and LRCA still have the last game to play against each other.

Maumelle is currently 11-0, has H2H vs LRCA 1-0 and has 1 goal over LRCA, overall TB pts is 27 pts.

LRCA is currently 10-1, lost only to Maumelle, has H2H at 0-1 and has a -1 goal against Maumelle, overall pts is 22 pts.

If Maumelle wins this game, then they would have the 1st seed and West Champs 12-0.
If LRCA wins this game, then they would share the West Champs with Maumelle at 11-1, but that would also open up a whole new can of worms for seeding.  For instance...
Maumelle and LRCA would be tied on H2H.
To get the 1st seed, LRCA needs to win by 2 or more GD.
If both teams tie on H2H, GD, then Maumelle will get the 1st seed because of TB pts.
I believe that this is right.  This should be a great game at LRCA's pitch.  Hopefully after this game, that both teams don't have any injuries going into the playoffs. ;)


Forgive my ignorance on this but I have just one more question regarding the above info on the boys side..... If the game is tied and goes to KFTM, what would the outcome of the seeding be?  I guess the question would be, If LRCA must win by 2 goals, does this include KFTM?  I hope my question was at least understandable......

I really am looking forward to this game as both teams played very early in the season and both have since performed exceptionally well.  This should be the best game of the year for us so far....... And I completely agree that ALL players need to come out of this game with no injuries as we go into the playoffs.  Maumelle has already had one Senior hurt against Clarksville this past Tuesday, Senior night, and we do not need to loose another prior to the playoffs....

sevenof400

Any victory in KFTM (regardless of the score in the KFTM portion of the game) will be recorded as a 1 goal victory. 

Example:  Team A and B finish regulation play tied at 1. 

Team A wins the game in KFTM 4-1. 

The game is recorded as a 2-1 win for Team A.

Does that help?

fourfourtwo

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 07, 2015, 12:54:09 pm
Any victory in KFTM (regardless of the score in the KFTM portion of the game) will be recorded as a 1 goal victory. 

Example:  Team A and B finish regulation play tied at 1. 

Team A wins the game in KFTM 4-1. 

The game is recorded as a 2-1 win for Team A.

Interesting thought on this tie breaker situation.  Should teams be allowed to count their wins their margin of victory goal from KFTM when calculating tie breakers?  For example:  In the above scenario, team A is given the win after A and B tied in regulation. KFTM determined the winner and A counts that in their win column.  However, if A and B were tied at the end of the season in conference, should team A be allowed to use that 2-1 victory to count towards their margin of victory points when following the current tie break procedure?  The thought here is they did not score that goal in regulation and the goal does not represent an actual goal but rather a goal given to break the tie per the KFTM tie breaker procedure. 
Does that help?

hogbert

Injuries are part of the game, but as pointed out, can make a critical difference. LRCA VB lost one starter for the season (3-4 games ago) and one of the forwards has been out and just returned on a limited basis this week. You gotta play, and be able to win, with who can suit up.

Go Postal

Quote from: HP14 on May 07, 2015, 12:47:11 pm
Quote from: Go Postal on May 06, 2015, 10:15:54 pm
Another interesting scenario in the 5A West Boys 1st or 2nd seed.
Maumelle and LRCA still have the last game to play against each other.

Maumelle is currently 11-0, has H2H vs LRCA 1-0 and has 1 goal over LRCA, overall TB pts is 27 pts.

LRCA is currently 10-1, lost only to Maumelle, has H2H at 0-1 and has a -1 goal against Maumelle, overall pts is 22 pts.

If Maumelle wins this game, then they would have the 1st seed and West Champs 12-0.
If LRCA wins this game, then they would share the West Champs with Maumelle at 11-1, but that would also open up a whole new can of worms for seeding.  For instance...
Maumelle and LRCA would be tied on H2H.
To get the 1st seed, LRCA needs to win by 2 or more GD.
If both teams tie on H2H, GD, then Maumelle will get the 1st seed because of TB pts.
I believe that this is right.  This should be a great game at LRCA's pitch.  Hopefully after this game, that both teams don't have any injuries going into the playoffs. ;)


Forgive my ignorance on this but I have just one more question regarding the above info on the boys side..... If the game is tied and goes to KFTM, what would the outcome of the seeding be?  I guess the question would be, If LRCA must win by 2 goals, does this include KFTM?  I hope my question was at least understandable......

I really am looking forward to this game as both teams played very early in the season and both have since performed exceptionally well.  This should be the best game of the year for us so far....... And I completely agree that ALL players need to come out of this game with no injuries as we go into the playoffs.  Maumelle has already had one Senior hurt against Clarksville this past Tuesday, Senior night, and we do not need to loose another prior to the playoffs....
Quote from: sevenof400 on May 07, 2015, 12:54:09 pm
Any victory in KFTM (regardless of the score in the KFTM portion of the game) will be recorded as a 1 goal victory. 

Example:  Team A and B finish regulation play tied at 1. 

Team A wins the game in KFTM 4-1. 

The game is recorded as a 2-1 win for Team A.

Does that help?

LRCA needs to win in regulation play by 2 or more goals to get 1st seed from GD.  If it goes to KFTM, then no matter who has the most goals, it is still considered a 1 goal win.  LRCA doesn't want it to go to KFTM because even if they win the game from KFTM,  Maumelle still gets 1st seed from having overall conference tie-breaker points.  In other words,
Maumelle can get 1st seed if:
1.  They win the game in regulation by 1 or more goals
2.  They lose the game in regulation by 1 goal due to GD
3.  They win or lose in KFTM after a tie in regulation due to TB pts.
LRCA can get 1st seed if:
1.  They win by 2 goals or more in regulation.  Period.

From a Goblin Nation perspective, I like both of these new West boys/girls teams.  Both town's boys/girls teams will be going to the playoffs along with Harrison's boys/girls teams.  It is good that they came into the West.  LRCA boys/girls has always played hard against Harrison boys/girls when they were in another conference and we met during playoffs over the years.  Maumelle boys/girls coming in from the 4A was a welcomed surprise for us old time West fans.  Heck, Maumelle boys won the West conference in football and basketball this season.  Now they have a good chance of getting or tieing West Soccer Conference Champs.
LRCA, Maumelle in all sports has added a new blood genetics infusion to the West and with finally getting Vilonia from the East in soccer, though they have  played in the West in all the rest of the sports, our West All Sport Heart is pumping great for this year in any sport.  Anyway in this sport...
LR Christian Warriors win by 2 and be 1st seed and share the West trophy.
Maumelle Hornets win and keep 1st seed and the West trophy or lose by 1 and keep 1st seed and share the West trophy.
Just remember, one conference game to go.  Interconference trash talk stops.  You are now going to the playoffs.  You are the West Conference.  You cheer for your West companion teams, even if they meet up once again in the playoffs.  Admire and recognize other conferences great teams, trash talk them if you want, but remember that can always come back to haunt you if your team loses due to single elimination.  This has been a great season in soccer so far, I can't wait until playoffs.  May the better team win!

Off my soapbox and through writing my novel for now... ;)

sevenof400

6A East Boys:

Team                   Wins    Losses   Tiebreaker Points
Jonesboro           4        2                   10
Mountain Home   4        2                     8
Searcy              4        2                   10

Head to Head

Jonesboro - Searcy:
Searcy wins (May 1) 4-1 (+3)
Jonesboro wins (April 21) 1-0 (+1)
Margin of victory: Searcy +2

Jonesboro - Mountain Home:
Mountain Home wins (April 7) 2-1 (+1)
Jonesboro wins (May 8) 5-0 (+5 - reduced to +3 by rule)
Margin of victory: Jonesboro +2

Searcy - Mountain Home:
Searcy wins (April 24) 1-0 (+1)
Mountain Home wins (May 5) 1-0 (+1)
Margin of victory: none


So NO team has beaten another twice.  Moving on to the next step of the three way tiebreaker.

Jonesboro and Searcy have the best goal differential among the three teams.  Therefore the next step is to look at Jonesboro and Searcy head to head. 

Based on the info above, I believe Searcy will be the #1 seed (since they hold the head to head tiebreaker over Jonesboro), Jonesboro the #2 seed and Mountain Home the #3 seed.

fourfourtwo

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 10, 2015, 12:00:05 pm
6A East Boys:

Team                   Wins    Losses   Tiebreaker Points
Jonesboro           4        2                   10
Mountain Home   4        2                     8
Searcy              4        2                   10

Head to Head

Jonesboro - Searcy:
Searcy wins (May 1) 4-1 (+3)
Jonesboro wins (April 21) 1-0 (+1)
Margin of victory: Searcy +2

Jonesboro - Mountain Home:
Mountain Home wins (April 7) 2-1 (+1)
Jonesboro wins (May 8) 5-0 (+5 - reduced to +3 by rule)
Margin of victory: Jonesboro +2

Searcy - Mountain Home:
Searcy wins (April 24) 1-0 (+1)
Mountain Home wins (May 5) 1-0 (+1)
Margin of victory: none


So NO team has beaten another twice.  Moving on to the next step of the three way tiebreaker.

Jonesboro and Searcy have the best goal differential among the three teams.  Therefore the next step is to look at Jonesboro and Searcy head to head. 

Based on the info above, I believe Searcy will be the #1 seed (since they hold the head to head tiebreaker over Jonesboro), Jonesboro the #2 seed and Mountain Home the #3 seed.
This correct for the tie breaker procedure however, be careful not to confuse goal differential with margin of victory goals. The latter is the correct procedure.  Goal differential would include subtracting. For example: if team A beat team B 3-1 in the first of 2 round robins then A would have +2 goals. If A lost to B 4-2 the 2nd game then they would have -2 goals and therefore the goal differential would be 0 for A.
For AAA it only tabulates margin of victory goals. In the case of the 6A East boys, Searcy will have the #1 seed based in the information and explanation above. Then Jonesboro and Mountain Home must go through the procedure again. Based in the info above Jonesboro will #2 seed based on tie breaker goals.

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