Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

[Bruin Backer]

Episcopal Collegiate has the following statement on its website regarding financial aid:

The Arkansas Activities Association, which oversees interscholastic athletic competition in Arkansas, requires that any non-public school provide verification that all students competing in sports receive no more financial aid than is justified based on their financial need, as determined by an independent service. Therefore, any student that receives financial assistance and might possibly compete in interscholastic competition must have a release form signed by their family that authorizes the School to provide information to the AAA if so requested. At Episcopal Collegiate School, over 75% of the student body participates in such interscholastic competition.

It may be a bit clearer than the PA statement, but the message is the same. The financial aid request form sent to the firm determining financial need does not ask whether or not the student is involved in athletics. The firm (SSS) bases its decision solely on the financial statements and tax returns of the parent(s). On the other hand, each private school MUST ask the question. The school must notify the AAA of all athletes receiving financial aid. If the athlete is receiving financial aid in an amount that exceeds what SSS determined was the student's actual need, then that student is ineligible to participate in any athletic program. As indicated by ECS, the parents must authorize the school to release all of the otherwise confidential financial aid application information if the AAA has any questions regarding the amount, and type, of aid being received by the athlete.

As PA Dad pointed out, because PA has a larger endowment fund than many other private schools, it is able to accept more students needing financial aid. This is a positive. PA can have a more diverse student body as a result. PA also has the ability to, in some cases, provide additional financial aid beyond the student's "assessed" need. This is also a positive in attracting the best students. On the other hand, when they do so, the student becomes ineligible to be on an athletic team.

This is a real recruiting advantage. A PA coach goes out to recruit a kid in elementary school, who may or may not ever become athletic. The coach tells the kid's parents, "I want your kid to come to PA. We can offer financial aid up to your assessed level of need. This will probably still require you to come up with thousands of dollars a year for tuition. If your child never plays a sport, he will still receive financial aid. If we give you any extra aid, your child will never be able to participate in sports. On the other hand, if you think your child may want to play football when he grows up, you could send your child to NLR, Bryant, Cabot, etc., that have great football programs and facilities far better than ours, and it won't cost you a dime". What a recruiting pitch.

[JessieP]

Episcopal Collegiate has the following statement on its website regarding financial aid:

The Arkansas Activities Association, which oversees interscholastic athletic competition in Arkansas, requires that any non-public school provide verification that all students competing in sports receive no more financial aid than is justified based on their financial need, as determined by an independent service. Therefore, any student that receives financial assistance and might possibly compete in interscholastic competition must have a release form signed by their family that authorizes the School to provide information to the AAA if so requested. At Episcopal Collegiate School, over 75% of the student body participates in such interscholastic competition.

It may be a bit clearer than the PA statement, but the message is the same. The financial aid request form sent to the firm determining financial need does not ask whether or not the student is involved in athletics. The firm (SSS) bases its decision solely on the financial statements and tax returns of the parent(s). On the other hand, each private school MUST ask the question. The school must notify the AAA of all athletes receiving financial aid. If the athlete is receiving financial aid in an amount that exceeds what SSS determined was the student's actual need, then that student is ineligible to participate in any athletic program. As indicated by ECS, the parents must authorize the school to release all of the otherwise confidential financial aid application information if the AAA has any questions regarding the amount, and type, of aid being received by the athlete.

As PA Dad pointed out, because PA has a larger endowment fund than many other private schools, it is able to accept more students needing financial aid. This is a positive. PA can have a more diverse student body as a result. PA also has the ability to, in some cases, provide additional financial aid beyond the student's "assessed" need. This is also a positive in attracting the best students. On the other hand, when they do so, the student becomes ineligible to be on an athletic team.

This is a real recruiting advantage. A PA coach goes out to recruit a kid in elementary school, who may or may not ever become athletic. The coach tells the kid's parents, "I want your kid to come to PA. We can offer financial aid up to your assessed level of need. This will probably still require you to come up with thousands of dollars a year for tuition. If your child never plays a sport, he will still receive financial aid. If we give you any extra aid, your child will never be able to participate in sports. On the other hand, if you think your child may want to play football when he grows up, you could send your child to NLR, Bryant, Cabot, etc., that have great football programs and facilities far better than ours, and it won't cost you a dime". What a recruiting pitch.

Again this post misses the point. The main source of contention among many many public schools is under table dealings. Just by having a 3rd party clearing house doesn't negate the possibility of "creative paperwork". What did Alabama, USC, Washington, Texas A&M, Ohio State and SMU in 1986 along with a dozen or more other schools all have in common ? they all had NCAA compliance officers. Every single one of their programs was audited by an off campus company to insure compliance. All of them hit with massive NCAA infractions for lack of compliance. The point stands, why do football players have a higher rate of financial aid ? is a very easy question.

[Bruin Backer]

Maybe the correct question is why do a greater percentage of students receiving financial aid choose to play football? As has been noted repeatedly, most PA football players enrolled before the sixth grade, which is before they have exhibited any skills related to playing football. Parents send their kids to a school like PA because they want them to receive an education that will prepare them to later attend the best quality colleges. If you lived in Little Rock, you would realize that there aren't many public school options that offer the same level of academic excellence. Parents only care about preparing their kids for college, which is why they enroll them in PA at the earliest opportunity.

Why do students on financial aid choose to play a sport? In many cases it is because the student and their parents realize how expensive college can be, and how hard it is to get into the best colleges. If a kid turns out to have athletic ability, it accomplishes two purposes. First, it makes receiving an athletic scholarship possible, which beats having to rely on needs based financial aid later on. Second, getting into a school like Harvard is not easy. Tens of thousands of students apply to the best colleges, with only a couple of thousand being accepted. A PA education gives the kid the academic credentials to qualify. However, almost every other applicant has equivalent academic credentials. Almost without exception, every kid accepted to a place like Harvard has something extra that separates them from the masses. They may be musicians, writers, actors, debaters, or even athletes.

They all have some talent that shows they have extraordinary discipline, drive, ambition and leadership skills. If a kid joins the football team and becomes a star player on a State Championship team, he increases his chances of getting into a school like Harvard and/or earning a scholarship that he needs to go to college. There is no conspiracy to what goes on. It is how real people pursue their aspirations if they live in Central Arkansas. For a lot of people, football is an end, in and of itself. For kids that attend a school like PA, and their parents, football is a potential means to a more important end. Now you have a simple answer to your easy question.

[MDXPHD]

PA Dad and Sevenof400, this post is primarily for both of you, since you both seem to be supporters of the success advancement system.

First, I will say that a multiplier or a separate league is not the answer. A separate league would actually make things much worse in Arkansas, in my opinion. We can debate about this if anyone wants to.

The success advancement would be the easiest system to implement, but will public schools consider themselves to be punished for winning? A team like Batesville, who has been to the semifinals time and time again, would have already moved up in most success advancement systems. Of course, they went to three state championship games as well, but never got the victory. Do we punish them for winning a lot, but not winning the ultimate goal? Or do we base the success advancement system solely on championships...such as you have to win at least one championship and been in the semifinals at least two times in the last 3 years.

I think the most difficult to adopt, but one of my favorites, is a combination of different methods. I believe we have to address socioeconomic factors.

In Oregon, the association takes the number of students who qualify for free or reduced lunches in each school, multiplies it by .25, and subtracts that number from the total number of students.  Then they use that final number as the enrollment number in order to place them into their respective classifications. Of course, this doesn't solve the problem alone, but combined with success advancement, it might be more effective than the others.

Oklahoma also has a unique method. "In athletic activities, a member school that would be placed in Class 4A or below according to ADM shall be placed one classification above the classification in which the member school would be placed according to ADM if the member school meets any three of the following four criteria:

     i)   the school has the ability to decline admission or enrollment to a student, even if the student and the student's parents (or custodial parent or court-appointed guardian with legal custody of the student) reside within that school's public school district or designated geographic area;
     ii) the school is located within a fifteen (15) mile radius of a school placed in the 5A or 6A classification according to ADM;
     iii) fewer than twenty-five (25) percent of the children enrolled at the school in grades nine through twelve qualify for free or reduced lunches;
     iv) the school's ADM in grades nine through 12 has increased by fifty (50) percent or more over the previous three school years.

Not only does Oklahoma implement the method mentioned above, but they also take into account a type of success advancement method.  Rule 14 also explains, "A school that would be placed in Class 4A or below according to ADM, but which has been moved up one classification pursuant to the above criteria will be moved back down in classification in a particular activity if the school's team has not finished among the top eight teams in that activity in at least three of the previous five school years."

What are y'all's thoughts based on the above information? Anything you like more than the others? Obviously Arkansas would not replicate either of these, but each state needs to address this based on the state's specific needs. This method might take care of the dominant public schools as well, and even the playing field across all of the classifications. Of course, travel (and a multitude of other concerns) would need to be addressed.

I guess I am really curious to see if the socioeconomic mixed with tournament success would be a popular method.

[PA Dad]

If the goal is to arrange classifications so that they are most competitive, I favor a strictly success based system.  The socioeconomic factors are important, but you could have a rich school which performs poorly in football or vice versa.

The criteria would be the kicker, but I think it could be worked out.  As an example, if you win two championships in five years, or if you are in the quarterfinals or higher for three of five years, you move up.  If you fail to make the playoffs for three years you move down.  Obviously, the criteria would be subject to debate, and should be subject to revision after it is implemented based on results.

And I think the criteria should be applied separately to each sport.  I know that might cause a lot of problems, but if the goal is to be competitive, that's the only way it would work.

[MDXPHD]

If the goal is to arrange classifications so that they are most competitive, I favor a strictly success based system.  The socioeconomic factors are important, but you could have a rich school which performs poorly in football or vice versa.

The criteria would be the kicker, but I think it could be worked out.  As an example, if you win two championships in five years, or if you are in the quarterfinals or higher for three of five years, you move up.  If you fail to make the playoffs for three years you move down.  Obviously, the criteria would be subject to debate, and should be subject to revision after it is implemented based on results.

And I think the criteria should be applied separately to each sport.  I know that might cause a lot of problems, but if the goal is to be competitive, that's the only way it would work.

Any system involving the success method would have to be sport specific. So you don't think socioeconomic factors combined with success advancement would work? You're more a fan of the straight success advancement?

If so, what about the Rhode Island method? The formula used by Rhode Island consists of 70% winning percentage over the past 8 years, 10% winning percentage over the previous three years, and 20% enrollment.  The winning percentages are weighted by division.  Essentially, a win against a higher division opponent is worth more than a win against a lower division opponent. They put this into a formula to determine where to classify each team.

[Intelligentsia]

This thread has taken a very productive turn, focusing on real alternatives t uho our current system.  As MX... and PAdad know, I believe the socio-economic factor should be considered, since I believe it to be a large factor in the potential private school success.  I would add that this discussion will become more relevant considering a voucher/charter friendly conservative state/national legislature which will likely lead to additional and additionally successful private and charter schools who understand the benefit to students and to enrollment increases based, in part, on successful sports programs.

[MDXPHD]

This thread has taken a very productive turn, focusing on real alternatives t uho our current system.  As MX... and PAdad know, I believe the socio-economic factor should be considered, since I believe it to be a large factor in the potential private school success.  I would add that this discussion will become more relevant considering a voucher/charter friendly conservative state/national legislature which will likely lead to additional and additionally successful private and charter schools who understand the benefit to students and to enrollment increases based, in part, on successful sports programs.

Wasn't sure if you were still around on the boards or not! I agree about how relevant this will become, which is why the AAA needs to get ahead of it and start thinking about how to redo the classifications. I think Oklahoma has some good things in their rule. Sure, it's a lot more work. But it would be worth it in the long run.

[PA Dad]

Any system involving the success method would have to be sport specific. So you don't think socioeconomic factors combined with success advancement would work? You're more a fan of the straight success advancement?

If so, what about the Rhode Island method? The formula used by Rhode Island consists of 70% winning percentage over the past 8 years, 10% winning percentage over the previous three years, and 20% enrollment.  The winning percentages are weighted by division.  Essentially, a win against a higher division opponent is worth more than a win against a lower division opponent. They put this into a formula to determine where to classify each team.

I'm not sure I understand all of the ins and outs of that system, but based on what I think I understand, I have no problem with it.

[PA Dad]

This thread has taken a very productive turn, focusing on real alternatives t uho our current system.  As MX... and PAdad know, I believe the socio-economic factor should be considered, since I believe it to be a large factor in the potential private school success.  I would add that this discussion will become more relevant considering a voucher/charter friendly conservative state/national legislature which will likely lead to additional and additionally successful private and charter schools who understand the benefit to students and to enrollment increases based, in part, on successful sports programs.

I guess my problem is I don't know how the socioeconomic factors would affect the classification of a team.  If those factors contribute to a school's success, then by definition those factors are taken into account if a team is moved up because of its success.

[JessieP]

I myself and vehemently oppose success based classification. I hate penalizing a team for winning. This whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality is fostering a society of mediocrity. What I think is grossly unfair is when high school teams field a team of out of district players. It's really quite simple, Batesville, Wynne, Alma and almost everyone else is handcuffed by boundaries, PA is not. Throw everything else out the window and that fact, in and of itself tilts the field in their favor. It's plain as day. And the whole "they play football to get into Harvard" I'll address when I'm able to read or write that without bursting into laughter.

[CoachTaylorPA]

MDX and others , Interesting perspectives shared as always.  It's an interesting world when we begin to look at classification ideas.  I have been involved in athletics in three different states with very different systems and beliefs.  I think athletics is now more important in our society than ever before.  Also I want to continue seeing Arkansas High School athletics flourish in all sports throughout the state.  Below are some observations about high school athletics in Arkansas.  Hopefully this can provide some perspective on the discussion at hand. 

I am not a supporter of the advancement system as a whole.  Primarily I don't like it because it would require different classifications and conferences in each sport.  Also the successful 7A schools would have no place to go.  However all classification plans have their merit.

I have read the recent posts about economic factors and population etc.  I would present the following facts regarding recent schools that have won championships in Arkansas. 

Morrilton won a football state title being one of the smallest population schools in 5A in 2013.
Watson Chapel has won back to back state championships in girls basketball.
Junction City and Greenwood have won several state championships in football over the years.
Mills won the boys basketball state title this year as one of the smaller 5A schools in the state. 
Cabot won a basketball state championship in 2016.
Shiloh Christian won a baseball state championship in 2016.
Magnolia won a baseball state title in 2016.
Fayetteville won a football state title in 2016.   
Jonesboro won a basketball state title this year in 2017.   
Nashville won a state title in football in football in 2015.
Vilonia won a state title in softball in 2016.
Harrison has won several girl state soccer championships.
Dequeen and Hot Springs have won soccer state championships.
Lakeside is always winning championships in golf and tennis.

I could of used other schools/sports as an example but I think this sample size shows schools from all over the state and from diverse backgrounds winning championships.  In reality certain communities and schools have cultures set up for them to be successful in certain sports.  Little Rock schools are traditionally very strong in basketball due to student population and urban neighborhood schools.  Sylvan Hills, Benton, and Bryant are successful in baseball.  They have strong youth programs and kids are raised playing baseball.  Nashville and Greenwood are great in football because their kids grow up playing football and the whole town supports the program.  In every state certain programs are set up for success because of their circumstances.  This can be called an advantage but it's just the way it is.  Communities can embrace new sports or different sports but in most cases it takes years.

Another factor in success is population base.  Jonesboro schools continue to grow as some of the more rural schools in the area population dwindle.  Northwest Arkansas continues to grow and so they are building larger schools.  Little Rock has multiple schools and a larger amount of students to draw from than more rural areas.  Also in Central Arkansas and Northwest Arkansas with the population density and the amount of schools it's an easy temptation for kids to transfer or change schools.  Some schools are considered open zone or can attract kids from a greater area.  However these schools also in many cases lose students as well.  In more rural areas sometimes people relocate to bigger population areas due to job opportunity or to play in a bigger program.  In towns like Warren kids grow up playing football together and the players are developed into successful athletes without various school options.  Conway and Fayetteville haven't split their schools even though they are large and some say this is a positive.  North Little Rock just merged their 9-10 and 11-12 campuses some say this is a great help in many areas.   The location of a school and who is attending is the starting point for programs.

Something else to consider in a schools success is their academic offerings.  Some schools have advanced placement programs that attract high achieving students into their hallways.  Other schools have academies with certain focus areas which interest students in their district.  Certain districts due to limitations or lack of interest cannot offer certain programs.  A school with resources can attract and keep quality teachers and administrators which make a lot of things possible. 

Looking back at the championship schools I mentioned above they also have a common thread.  Quality coaches who lead, inspire, and direct players to be more.  In most cases coaches and their staff are able to rally the town around the team and foster support in facilities and school spirit.   This is no different for athletic directors or principals who develop great programs and opportunities for kids that evoke school pride and achievement.  Obviously this filters down from the superintendent level.   Coaching is in my opinion the greatest variable in high school athletics.  Additionally a schools emphasis on athletics is important.  Some school districts emphasize athletics as a whole or a certain sport more than others.  This emphasis leads to staffing and overall support which should improve the school and community.

In reality I believe sports is the one place in America where people from diverse backgrounds can lay their differences aside and come together and share in competition.  The essence of high school athletics is players representing their schools with pride and honor.  This builds community as well as the opportunity for achievement which gives people hope.  The idea of a better tomorrow  is something that our country needs today more than ever.

[Intelligentsia]

You are quite right in your observations, Coach Taylor.  Local tradition and exceptional coaching are primary drivers in specific sports success.  As you may have made note in my previous comment, I stated that socio-economic factors provide the POTENTIAL private school success (inferring particular potential advantage for  private school programs).  My point being, given exceptional coaching and tradition, private schools most often attended by economically advantaged students have a real advantage over public schools with exceptional coaching and tradition.  While I could list those advantages again, I'll assume you have read my previous posts concerning those issues.

[CoachTaylorPA]

Intelligentsia, hope all is well.  Another thought regarding your post.  Wouldn't you say that certain public schools due to various factors hold a resource, financial, facility, and staffing advantages over other public, private, and  charterschools?  Also as mentioned in my post and I think you would concur the aforementioned do not necessarily translate into wins. 

[JessieP]

There is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and 5 . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ? 

[sevenof400]

I myself and vehemently oppose success based classification. I hate penalizing a team for winning. This whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality is fostering a society of mediocrity. What I think is grossly unfair is when high school teams field a team of out of district players. It's really quite simple, Batesville, Wynne, Alma and almost everyone else is handcuffed by boundaries, PA is not. Throw everything else out the window and that fact, in and of itself tilts the field in their favor. It's plain as day. And the whole "they play football to get into Harvard" I'll address when I'm able to read or write that without bursting into laughter.

Interestingly enough, your points here actually support the idea of success based classification if you change your paradigm just a bit.  We do not 'know' the exact and precise reasons PA has enjoyed their recent run of success and we may never know the exact formula.  However, and I think PA would support this notion as well, if their football program is capable of playing at the current 6A classification, they should do exactly that.

One if the issues surrounding promotion / relegation (i.e. success based classifications) is the reality a school may have sports teams participating not only in different conferences but also different classifications depending on their success level in any given sport.  Since we've focused a good bit on PA here, let's take this a step further and look at a few sports in which PA currently participates and see what could happen based on success based classifications.

Football - PA would likely be in 6A. 

Basketball - PA boys have struggled at the current 5A level, but no so much as to suspect they would be relegated to 4A.  Girls have enjoyed more success and would likely be in 5A still.

Volleyball - PA girls haven't broken though the current Eastern wall in 5A but if success based classifications were implemented, part (if not all) of that wall would be in 6A now. 

Track - I don't recall either the boys or girls teams from PA enjoying success at the state level in 5A.  4A (or maybe even 3A) might be a better fit given PA's track strength. 

Given this, it might be the case that PA would have teams in classifications as low as 3A and its high as 6A at the same time. 
Why would that be a problem? 

Given the frequency of change in classifications and conferences already, having a team compete at a level that better matches its talent would make for a much better athletic environment wouldn't you think? 

Excellent conversation going here all! 

[sevenof400]

There is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?

The current situation in Little Rock and Pulaski County would offer evidence to the contrary.  But to be fair, that situation is not the same throughout the state either.  How do you correct / adjust for the Little Rock / Pulaski County situation? 

[JessieP]

The current situation in Little Rock and Pulaski County would offer evidence to the contrary.  But to be fair, that situation is not the same throughout the state either.  How do you correct / adjust for the Little Rock / Pulaski County situation?

I am not aware of the Little Rock/Pulaski County situation. I don't mean defiantly, I am ignorant to the facts in that case. Are schools in Little Rock not subject to boundaries ?

[HorseFeathers]

I am not aware of the Little Rock/Pulaski County situation. I don't mean defiantly, I am ignorant to the facts in that case. Are schools in Little Rock not subject to boundaries ?

Kids in pcssd and little rock seemingly move around at will...

[sevenof400]

I am not aware of the Little Rock/Pulaski County situation. I don't mean defiantly, I am ignorant to the facts in that case. Are schools in Little Rock not subject to boundaries ?

Within the various school systems in Pulaski County, there are a number of ways kids seem to start at one district and then move elsewhere.  Magnet schools, and majority to minority transfers are two mechanisms that have been used to move from one school district to another.   Much (if not all of this) is a result of the various decisions involved with the many desegregation cases over the years.   

Transfers like these are not universally available to all public school students in Arkansas so here is another factor which serves to imbalance schools. 

[JessieP]

Within the various school systems in Pulaski County, there are a number of ways kids seem to start at one district and then move elsewhere.  Magnet schools, and majority to minority transfers are two mechanisms that have been used to move from one school district to another.   Much (if not all of this) is a result of the various decisions involved with the many desegregation cases over the years.   

Transfers like these are not universally available to all public school students in Arkansas so here is another factor which serves to imbalance schools.

Are they immediately eligible for extra curricular (football) activities ? is there no waiting period ? exactly how loose is the AAA on rules ?

[CoachTaylorPA]

There is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and 5 . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?

Jessie,  The following is my response to your statement.  Do what you will with this information.  After 7th grade a student cannot transfer immediately to a private school and be eligible if they live within a 25 mile radius of the school.  A student that lives outside the 25 mile radius of the school can only become immediately eligible after 7th grade if they make a bonafide move of address inside the 25 mile radius.  I presume the AAA uses 7th grade because most schools transition at that grade to other schools.  Any transfer both public and private is regulated by the AAA and must be done by July 1.  A student can always leave a private/magnet school and return to their school of zone and play the next semester.  In the public sector if a student provides their own transportation for 365 days they are eligible to play the next year regardless of their address.  However as you probably know if a student's family moves their address into a school district then they can play for that school.  Certain school districts participate in the school of choice programs which allow students within a county to attend any school in the county regardless of zone.  Also some public schools due to their academic programs or certain extracurricular activities can gain students out of their attendance zone who participate in those programs.  Also in the past with desegregation students were bused all over Little Rock for various reasons however this is now over.  As we all know players transfer from district to district for various reasons every year throughout the state.  In the end parents and students must do what they feel is best for their scholastic experience.   I hope this provides clarity on your statement.  I did skim over the AAA regulations regarding transfers before typing this.  All the information is on the website if you care to research for your self.   Also I am not exactly sure where charter schools fall in some of the regulations.

[Intelligentsia]

Intelligentsia, hope all is well.  Another thought regarding your post.  Wouldn't you say that certain public schools due to various factors hold a resource, financial, facility, and staffing advantages over other public, private, and  charterschools?  Also as mentioned in my post and I think you would concur the aforementioned do not necessarily translate into wins.

Coach Taylor, It is certainly possible for a public school to realize the advantages you mention, and while not ensuring success, would make it more likely, and likely does so in many of the most successful school sports programs, public or private.  Those issues are not what I am addressing, however.  My issue is with the potential advantage for private schools made possible by the socio-economic advantages of the student/family.  If necessary, I can go into the nature of those advantages and their impact, an impact that, all other thing equal (coaching, facilities​, tradition, support), will tip the scale in favor of the private school.

[sevenof400]

Are they immediately eligible for extra curricular (football) activities ? is there no waiting period ? exactly how loose is the AAA on rules ?

It is my understanding that students who use these transfer methods ARE immediately eligible for athletics - as long as the students comply with the requirements of the transfer program (Majority to Minority, Magnet Schools, etc). 

[GuvHog]

It is my understanding that students who use these transfer methods ARE immediately eligible for athletics - as long as the students comply with the requirements of the transfer program (Majority to Minority, Magnet Schools, etc). 

Have they changed the rules?? The AAA rules did state that if an Athlete transfers from one school to another after they begin their Junior year without making a bonafied move into the new district, they were not eligible for extracurricular activities during their Senior year.

[SUGARTOWN]

I have read the recent posts about economic factors and population etc.  I would present the following facts regarding recent schools that have won championships in Arkansas. 

Morrilton won a football state title being one of the smallest population schools in 5A in 2013.
Watson Chapel has won back to back state championships in girls basketball.
Junction City and Greenwood have won several state championships in football over the years.
Mills won the boys basketball state title this year as one of the smaller 5A schools in the state. 
Cabot won a basketball state championship in 2016.
Shiloh Christian won a baseball state championship in 2016.
Magnolia won a baseball state title in 2016.
Fayetteville won a football state title in 2016.   
Jonesboro won a basketball state title this year in 2017.   
Nashville won a state title in football in football in 2015.
Vilonia won a state title in softball in 2016.
Harrison has won several girl state soccer championships.
Dequeen and Hot Springs have won soccer state championships.
Lakeside is always winning championships in golf and tennis.

Sure, any number schools can get a great class or two of players coming through and win a title or maybe even two, but what other school with a small enrollment can match all of these titles? Just a good run of players the past 20-30 years I guess? 

Girls Tennis (14x): 1980–2013 including 1980, 1987, 1988, 1989, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013
Boys Tennis (11x): 1981–2013 including 1981, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013
Baseball (5x): 1993, 1994, 2002, 2003, 2013 5A
Girls Soccer (6x): 2003–2012
Boys Soccer (3x): 2000, 2001, 2007
Football (6x): (2003 3A), (2008 5A), (2011 4A) (2014 5A), (2015 5A), (2016 5A)
Boys Basketball (2x): 2002, 2003
All Golf Team (5x) : 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006

[JessieP]

Jessie,  The following is my response to your statement.  Do what you will with this information.  After 7th grade a student cannot transfer immediately to a private school and be eligible if they live within a 25 mile radius of the school.  A student that lives outside the 25 mile radius of the school can only become immediately eligible after 7th grade if they make a bonafide move of address inside the 25 mile radius.  I presume the AAA uses 7th grade because most schools transition at that grade to other schools.  Any transfer both public and private is regulated by the AAA and must be done by July 1.  A student can always leave a private/magnet school and return to their school of zone and play the next semester.  In the public sector if a student provides their own transportation for 365 days they are eligible to play the next year regardless of their address.  However as you probably know if a student's family moves their address into a school district then they can play for that school.  Certain school districts participate in the school of choice programs which allow students within a county to attend any school in the county regardless of zone.  Also some public schools due to their academic programs or certain extracurricular activities can gain students out of their attendance zone who participate in those programs.  Also in the past with desegregation students were bused all over Little Rock for various reasons however this is now over.  As we all know players transfer from district to district for various reasons every year throughout the state.  In the end parents and students must do what they feel is best for their scholastic experience.  I hope this provides clarity to the situation. I did skim over the AAA regulations regarding transfers before typing this.  All the information is on the website if you care to research for your self.   Also I am not exactly sure where charter schools fall in some of the regulations.

A 15 mile radius ? possibly a 25 mile radius ? are you kidding me ? you don't find that a massive totally unfair advantage ? it took me 2 day's to get my information in order. Wynne, Batesville, Blytheville, Forrest City and Alma were the schools I looked at. Every one of those schools gets 97% of it's student from a 7 mile radius, 77% of those are within a 4 mile radius. Less then .01% of the students in all 5 schools has traveled 25 miles. The defense of a 15 mile radius does not favor PA in this debate it is exhibit A for those who oppose their policy. If you factor in the population density of Little Rock compared to the 5 other schools the numbers become more glaring. The 25 mile radius leaves one conclusion, the same one people have been complaining about for 10 years. Public schools field teams stocked with players that live nearby, PA has a virtual all-star team.

[SUGARTOWN]

A 15 mile radius ? possibly a 25 mile radius ? are you kidding me ? you don't find that a massive totally unfair advantage ? it took me 2 day's to get my information in order. Wynne, Batesville, Blytheville, Forrest City and Alma were the schools I looked at. Every one of those schools gets 97% of it's student from a 7 mile radius, 77% of those are within a 4 mile radius. Less then .01% of the students in all 5 schools has traveled 25 miles. The defense of a 15 mile radius does not favor PA in this debate it is exhibit A for those who oppose their policy. If you factor in the population density of Little Rock compared to the 5 other schools the numbers become more glaring. The 25 mile radius leaves one conclusion, the same one people have been complaining about for 10 years. Public schools field teams stocked with players that live nearby, PA has a virtual all-star team.

Exactly. A 25 mile radius includes, Bryant, Benton, Jacksonville, Cabot, Maumelle and Conway. Several of those places are within a 15 mile radius.

We all KNOW it's a virtual all-star team, but it's hilarious to hear the PA defenders bend over backwards trying to say it's not.

[JessieP]

Exactly. A 25 mile radius includes, Bryant, Benton, Jacksonville, Cabot, Maumelle and Conway. Several of those places are within a 15 mile radius.

We all KNOW it's a virtual all-star team, but it's hilarious to hear the PA defenders bend over backwards trying to say it's not.

Sugartown, as the debate goes on and on the PA defenders are quite adept at presenting points that support their argument. When I read the "25 mile" radius point I knew then the unfair advantage was no longer a point of debate, it's an iron clad fact.

[SUGARTOWN]

Sugartown, as the debate goes on and on the PA defenders are quite adept at presenting points that support their argument. When I read the "25 mile" radius point I knew then the unfair advantage was no longer a point of debate, it's an iron clad fact.

That, and the fact that they've had more football players go on to play at the college level recently than any school their size (and it's not even close) and more than likely any school in Arkansas regardless of classification.

Personally, I know exactly who and what that school is and I don't have a big problem with it, but it gets monotonous to hear them go on and on like they're not that much different than any other public school when we all know that's not the case.

[Red Devil Alum]

I myself and vehemently oppose success based classification. I hate penalizing a team for winning. This whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality is fostering a society of mediocrity. What I think is grossly unfair is when high school teams field a team of out of district players. It's really quite simple, Batesville, Wynne, Alma and almost everyone else is handcuffed by boundaries, PA is not. Throw everything else out the window and that fact, in and of itself tilts the field in their favor. It's plain as day. And the whole "they play football to get into Harvard" I'll address when I'm able to read or write that without bursting into laughter.

More kids on last year's PA team will likely end up playing in the Ivy League than every other high school in the state combined. One player from last year's team will play in the Ivy League next year and others were offered. I believe 4 players on this year's team have been offered by Ivy League schools. Given the average rate of admissions, playing football for PA is the quickest route to an Ivy League education in the state of Arkansas.

[Bruin Backer]

Thank you Red Devil Alum for the Ivy League statistics. I know that one of next year's players that has gotten several Ivy League offers has a 31 or better on his ACT and a GPA above 4.0. Those are the numbers that matter before an Ivy League school even looks at whether the student played football. JessieP can laugh all he wants, but what I said is true. Parents send their kids to PA for the educational opportunities. PA had 8 National Merit Semifinalists last year. ESC and LRCC had two each. Wynne had one. Many of the kids become active in extracurricular activities that can be the deciding factor in whether or not they get accepted at a school like Harvard. Some of the kids play football as their activity. I think a lot of kids are getting the last laugh.

[JessieP]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The chest thumping and self promotion of the PA fans on this site are pretty standard talking points. They must have parents meetings. The funny thing though is that this is a football site. Put aside all the other pointless claims made by the Bruin backers, we are all very impressed that IVY League recruiters get into fistfights in the parking lot over who gets the jet fuel geniuses at PA. We all get it, the smartest kids in America go to PA. Let's try and steer this back to football. PA fields an all-star team, other schools field students that are bound by their address. It is painfully obvious that PA's fans and backers are perfectly fine knowing they have won with a stacked deck. I guess the one thing they don't emphasize there is winning with honor. It's a hypothetical point but at the end of the day everyone who follows Arkansas high school football knows that if you applies the same residence boundaries to PA as you do to the public schools in the 5A Wynne would have defeated Batesville in last years title game. PA would have been knocked out in round 2. Funny thing is that the objective evaluators of high school football in the United States know it too. Bishop Gorman, Plano East, Crenshaw, Mater Dei, Long Beach Poly, Miami Dade and many others, the elite, you never see PA on that list. There are schools with even lower enrollments that you do. I know they look at Arkansas because Springdale made it once. So I guess PA's well financed pr machine isn't fooling the National Media. I just wish Arkansas would let the kids decide who's best, even the playing field and let the best team win. David Robinson was being ask if winning the gold medal with the Dream Team was a bigger thrill then winning the NBA finals. He said "No, not at all. Winning the finals was a team effort. The Dream Team was an all-star team. The sense of pride is no where near the same. All-Star teams are expected to win".   

[Red Devil Alum]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The chest thumping and self promotion of the PA fans on this site are pretty standard talking points. They must have parents meetings. The funny thing though is that this is a football site. Put aside all the other pointless claims made by the Bruin backers, we are all very impressed that IVY League recruiters get into fistfights in the parking lot over who gets the jet fuel geniuses at PA. We all get it, the smartest kids in America go to PA. Let's try and steer this back to football. PA fields an all-star team, other schools field students that are bound by their address. It is painfully obvious that PA's fans and backers are perfectly fine knowing they have won with a stacked deck. I guess the one thing they don't emphasize there is winning with honor. It's a hypothetical point but at the end of the day everyone who follows Arkansas high school football knows that if you applies the same residence boundaries to PA as you do to the public schools in the 5A Wynne would have defeated Batesville in last years title game. PA would have been knocked out in round 2. Funny thing is that the objective evaluators of high school football in the United States know it too. Bishop Gorman, Plano East, Crenshaw, Mater Dei, Long Beach Poly, Miami Dade and many others, the elite, you never see PA on that list. There are schools with even lower enrollments that you do. I know they look at Arkansas because Springdale made it once. So I guess PA's well financed pr machine isn't fooling the National Media. I just wish Arkansas would let the kids decide who's best, even the playing field and let the best team win. David Robinson was being ask if winning the gold medal with the Dream Team was a bigger thrill then winning the NBA finals. He said "No, not at all. Winning the finals was a team effort. The Dream Team was an all-star team. The sense of pride is no where near the same. All-Star teams are expected to win".

Man, that makes no sense at all.

You ask for reasons why good football players would go to PA other than recruiting, and are told because of academics. To that you scoff, and say let's get back to football (and seem to snicker at the thought that PA kids are going to Ivy League schools in highly disproportionate numbers.)

You call PA an "all-star" team even though you yourself said that the talent level at PA was so low that they can't be recruiting.

No one from PA has denied that we have advantages. They aren't from recruiting, but we have advantages. If you want to limit PA geographically, let's truly make it apples to apples and make Wynne and others charge their students $6,000 - $12,000 a year. Let's see if that changes the championship.

By the way, every school you listed as an attendance far larger than PA.

[AirWarren]

Some of these posts just make me laugh.

[rpr]

     The 25 mile radius rule for transfer into privates is one of the most misunderstood rules as most of the previous posts indicate. 25 miles is not the size of the school district it is the minimum distance that a student must live from the private school in order to be eligible if they make a bona fide move within 25 miles of the school. A prominent public coach once recommended the distance be changed to 5 miles to "reduce the size of the private school attendance zone" which would have allowed transfers from as little as five miles away to move within the now "smaller" district and be eligible. If you want to stop transfers to Little Rock privates enlarge the 25 mile radius to 200 miles, no student within the borders of Arkansas would live outside a 200 mile radius and even it they moved next door to a LR private they would have to sit out 365 days because they did not live outside the "largest school districts in the world". The 25 mile radius is not the size of the school district. It is a distance test applied to "bona fide moves" that limits eligibility, the larger the radius the greater the limitation, the smaller the radius the smaller the limitation.
       The belief that privates have a 25 mile radius as an attendance zone is incorrect. If they did a student living within that attendance zone could transfer to the private without moving since they already live "within" the district and be eligible...they cannot until they sit for 365 days and establish residence.
The AAA handbook can be found at: http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2016-17_AAA_Handbook_abs.pdf (eligibility rules begin on page 36, the 25 mile rule is on page 40, section J 1 b.

[MDXPHD]

I understand what you're saying about changing the radius to make it larger, but that just won't happen. Otherwise, you would just do away with the radius.

I think the chief complaint is that it's easier to make a bona fide move into the 25 mile radius to gain immediate eligibility as compared to public schools, who must make a bona fide move into the schools district. Parents wanting to send kids to a little rock private school have several more options for jobs in multiple towns, but transferring to a public school would limit those parents to living only within that district for immediate eligibility. It's a little problem, but not as much as the others addressed throughout this thread.

[GuvHog]

Man, that makes no sense at all.

You ask for reasons why good football players would go to PA other than recruiting, and are told because of academics. To that you scoff, and say let's get back to football (and seem to snicker at the thought that PA kids are going to Ivy League schools in highly disproportionate numbers.)

You call PA an "all-star" team even though you yourself said that the talent level at PA was so low that they can't be recruiting.

No one from PA has denied that we have advantages. They aren't from recruiting, but we have advantages. If you want to limit PA geographically, let's truly make it apples to apples and make Wynne and others charge their students $6,000 - $12,000 a year. Let's see if that changes the championship.

By the way, every school you listed as an attendance far larger than PA.

Come on Red Devil, To the players on the Pulaski Academy football team, academics is merely a side benefit. The main reason they go to PA is to play football in hopes of getting a D1 football scholarship. I submit that if the AAA separated the Private schools from the Public Schools and barred the Private schools from playing against public schools, Pulaski Academy's football program would dwindle to almost nothing pretty quickly as players would leave for public schools and their famous head coach would jump ship for another job at the first opportunity.

[Red Devil Alum]

Come on Red Devil, To the players on the Pulaski Academy football team, academics is merely a side benefit. The main reason they go to PA is to play football in hopes of getting a D1 football scholarship. I submit that if the AAA separated the Private schools from the Public Schools and barred the Private schools from playing against public schools, Pulaski Academy's football program would dwindle to almost nothing pretty quickly as players would leave for public schools and their famous head coach would jump ship for another job at the first opportunity.

The first two sentences of your post are nonsense. I mean, you make a lot of stuff up, but this is next level head up your butt level.

[JessieP]

The first two sentences of your post are nonsense. I mean, you make a lot of stuff up, but this is next level head up your butt level.

Red Devil Alum, when you don't have facts or a cohesive counterpoint resort to name calling. What line in that post set you off ? they really hit a nerve with you. I'll make this point again, I keep repeating it because none of the PA backers will respond to it. Hmm, I wonder why ?

Take a 6.1 mile radius, the average distance of the boundaries for Wynne, Batesville, Alma, Blytheville, Forrest City, Watson Chapel and Hope, and make that PA's imaginary boundary. No one outside that radius could play football. Now, how good would they be ? all of the sudden that great coached unbeatable Harvard pipeline looks very average. Wow, what a concept, making PA play under the same rules as everybody else. 

[STBruin]

The problem is not very few schools play by those rules...especially in the Greater LR area... where SEVERAL public school kids have played for MULTIPLE public schools in consecutive years...a point I have made in several posts, that many of the pro banning PA bashers won't comment on...

[JessieP]

The problem is not very few schools play by those rules...especially in the Greater LR area... where SEVERAL public school kids have played for MULTIPLE public schools in consecutive years...a point I have made in several posts, that many of the pro banning PA bashers won't comment on...

I'll gladly comment on it. It is not exclusive to PA. Many kids bounce around for many reasons. It could be a family move or even something as petty as the Mom didn't like the coach. Big difference, those are isolated cases that happen to one school one year and another school another year. The out of area players are PA's bread and butter. Probably less the 25% of the football team lives within a 6 mile radius. Having examples of a few players transferring does not compare with a program where "don't live in the district" makes up the vast majority of the team. Would you compare the gang fight at Park Plaza Mall last year to the LA riots ?

[Red Devil Alum]

Red Devil Alum, when you don't have facts or a cohesive counterpoint resort to name calling. What line in that post set you off ? they really hit a nerve with you. I'll make this point again, I keep repeating it because none of the PA backers will respond to it. Hmm, I wonder why ?

Take a 6.1 mile radius, the average distance of the boundaries for Wynne, Batesville, Alma, Blytheville, Forrest City, Watson Chapel and Hope, and make that PA's imaginary boundary. No one outside that radius could play football. Now, how good would they be ? all of the sudden that great coached unbeatable Harvard pipeline looks very average. Wow, what a concept, making PA play under the same rules as everybody else.

Because it was so dumb. PA is not some athletic factory where kids show up and get D1 scholarships. The vast majority that get scholarships get them from high academic schools. You laugh at the Ivy League offers, but they are real.

I'll ask you the same question. Any student that plays football at Wynne, Batesville, etc. also has to pay $6,000 - $12,000 per year for 6 plus years. How many championships do those schools win?

[CoachTaylorPA]

Jessie,  I hope all is well.  I responded to the following of your post which is bolded. Here is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?

In this post you state that private schools can draw talent from wherever they please.  Also you state private schools are not limited by boundaries.  The AAA rules show otherwise.  I probably did a poor job in my explanation by making the following point.  The 25 miles radius is not the size of a school zone.  What the radius means is if a student lives within a 25 miles radius of a private school they cannot attend a private school without sitting out a year after July 1st before the start of 7th grade.  In a previous post I outlined that the overwhelming majority of our players have been at our school since 6th grade or earlier.  As a side note the radius is not based on road miles. Thus someone can live 25 road miles away and still be in the radius and have to sit out or be ineligible.  I hope I did a better job of explaining the regulations.  Also certain public schools can accept students that do not live within their attendance zone for a variety of reasons. Magnet schools and charter schools both fall into those categories that some would call open zone.  However I am sure those schools have certain academic or scholastic requirements.  I hope this provides a clearer perspective on the issue at hand.  Also you stated that less 15 percent of our players live within 6 miles of the school.
  We have without a doubt MORE than 15% of our players living within 6 miles of the school. 

[SUGARTOWN]

In this post you state that private schools can draw talent from wherever they please.  Also you state private schools are not limited by boundaries.  The AAA rules show otherwise.  I probably did a poor job in my explanation by making the following point.  The 25 miles radius is not the size of a school zone.  What the radius means is if a student lives within a 25 miles radius of a private school they cannot attend a private school without sitting out a year after July 1st before the start of 7th grade.  In a previous post I outlined that the overwhelming majority of our players have been at our school since 6th grade or earlier.  As a side note the radius is not based on road miles. Thus someone can live 25 road miles away and still be in the radius and have to sit out or be ineligible.  I hope I did a better job of explaining the regulations.  Also certain public schools can accept students that do not live within their attendance zone for a variety of reasons. Magnet schools and charter schools both fall into those categories that some would call open zone.  However I am sure those schools have certain academic or scholastic requirements.  I hope this provides a clearer perspective on the issue at hand.  Also you stated that less 15 percent of our players live within 6 miles of the school.
  We have without a doubt MORE than 15% of our players living within 6 miles of the school.

Here's the rule in question:

2. After July 1 prior to entering the 7th grade year, a student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius of a nonpublic school must make a bona fide move within a 25-mile radius of the school that the student will attend to become eligible.


The way I read it, it looks as if someone could move from Searcy to Cabot for example and be eligible to play at PA, or from Hot Springs to Bryant and be eligible to play at PA without sitting out.

But it they moved from Searcy to Cabot they couldn't go to Lonoke and play as their parents live in the Cabot school district.

So it appears as long as they MOVE into the 25 mile radius they don't have to sit out a year. Now, I'm not saying PA has a bunch of players that have done that, but your statement about the 25 mile radius NOT being a school zone is a bit misleading.

[MB Hog]

If any of the doubters would attend the Academic Awards assembly at the end of each school year, you'd realize that PA is about academics first and foremost, even for the majority of the athletes.  But since all most of you think about when you think of PA is their football success, you just can't allow yourselves to believe that football is not the top priority of the school.

Success on the football field at PA happens because of commitment, hard work, and great coaching.  It has nothing to do with the alleged hand-picking of athletes.

Jessie - you are correct.  If PA had to field a team from a 6-mile radius, that would certainly limit their success.  On the other hand - if the entire student population who lives within a 6-mile radius of the school attended PA (assuming it was public rather than private), the overall athletic potential of the football team would grow ten-fold.  There are an awful lot of incredibly talented high school athletes who live within 6 miles of PA, but most of them go to other schools.

[nuttinbuthogs]

what schools do they go to?

[MB Hog]

what schools do they go to?

I have no idea of the complete list, but Robinson and Maumelle would be a couple of the main ones.  Central would be another.

[MB Hog]

what schools do they go to?

Did a little more looking at the map.  Many people may not realize that PA is not very deep into West Little Rock.  It is very close to I-430.  It's only 9.5 miles from downtown Little Rock (driving)... even closer "as the crow flies."  So public high schools that would have a lot of students within 6 miles of PA would include:

Robinson
Maumelle
Central
Parkview
Hall
J.A. Fair

[SUGARTOWN]

Jessie - you are correct.  If PA had to field a team from a 6-mile radius, that would certainly limit their success.  On the other hand - if the entire student population who lives within a 6-mile radius of the school attended PA (assuming it was public rather than private), the overall athletic potential of the football team would grow ten-fold.  There are an awful lot of incredibly talented high school athletes who live within 6 miles of PA, but most of them go to other schools.

Actually if PA wasn't private then it wouldn't exist as there would be no need for a public school in that area. So your premise here doesn't work. Try again.