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Arkansas High School Football => Coaches Corner => Topic started by: Justafan42 on March 19, 2008, 10:41:11 pm

Title: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on March 19, 2008, 10:41:11 pm
The AAA is voting this August to do away with the requirement.

Whatcha think Coaches?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Made on March 20, 2008, 01:26:15 pm
I think it is a wonderful idea, I know a lot of teachers who are teaching various subjects who would love to coach, but do not have the time to go get a coaching endorsement.  The only classes that you have to have for a coaching endorsement are:

strength training and conditioning, but you will learn several ways to do the same lift once you start coaching(ie. bench close, wide, push straight up, push over your eyes.)  And conditioning, we all know just means get your heart rate up. 

Basic physiology of activity, half of the coaches in the state can't even spell physiology let alone understand what it means.  Coaches coach what they know, they don't think outside their own little box.

Rules and Officiating: Why even take this class?...they give a clinic on this every year that coaches have to attend.

Concepts of Athletic Training:  Should the school not have to hire an athletic trainer>?  If a kid gets his ankle taped and he breaks hits leg at that point would the coach be liable?..would their not be some sort of debate as to if it could have been prevented?  Also if a kid leaves ice on their leg to the point of frost bite, whose fault is it?..the coach who told the kid to ice it, or the kid who listened to the coach who was supposed to be looking out for him.

Organization and Administration of Interscholastic Athletics:  Most school teachers have to organize thier classroom along with everything else they do with their jobs.  Why make them take another class on organization.

Other things I think they should do away with the requirement to have a license to teach building towers or tosses in cheerleading.  Do away with professional development for teachers, why on earth would teachers who went to classes for 4-7 years need more training on the new and current procedures?  Trees what are they good for anyways?  Making oxygen?  Most of our oxygen comes from the seaweed in the ocean anyhow.  Blonds, ok lets not get rid of blonds.  Sorry getting carried away.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on March 20, 2008, 04:45:02 pm
What school has this curriculum.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: AlongForTheRide on March 21, 2008, 12:11:55 pm
All major colleges offer these classes.  A coaching endorsement should be used because at least we know the coaches have had the training with the classes. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on March 21, 2008, 06:13:55 pm
The reason I asked my question was because it would be nice to have to take those courses.

Try Anatomical, and Mechanical Kinesiology, Anatomy, Exercise Physiology, Principles of KPED, Motor Development, Sports Psychology, Care and Prevention of Ex and sport injuries, Fitness Assesment & Ex Precription, and an easy Coaching class. Not to mention all the prerequistes that you need to take these classes.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on March 28, 2008, 12:35:34 pm
I'd like to know if this is true or not. This is the reason I left Arkansas and came to Texas to coach. Texas does not require a "coaching endorsement". If you are a certified teacher and are employed by a district you may coach there.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on March 28, 2008, 01:41:48 pm
It's true. Just call the AAA and ask to confirm. They do say not to count on it to pass.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on March 28, 2008, 03:48:03 pm
Then why propose it in the first place?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on March 28, 2008, 06:14:14 pm
I actually learned a lot of valuable information from classes like Kineisiology and Athletic Training.

And no, you can hire a trainer, but he/she won't be there all of the time.  A coach should learn the proper way to tape an ankle or whatever.  That was part of my final, and was taught by a guy who was a head trainer at a major D1 program.  Many, many people do it wrong on a daily basis. 

Some of the electives are bogus.  I took track (as an independent study) and I still know nothing about track--nor do I have a desire to.  I took basketball, which didn't teach me anything that I didn't already know.  I had fun playing basketball every night for 4 weeks though!

I also think all coaches should have to be certified in CPR.  A trainer isn't always present at practices, and most schools can't even afford a trainer.

There should be some additional requirements.  Not every teacher is qualified to be a coach.  In fact, I'm glad they've added requirements that used to be non-existent.  Most coaches over 40 never took the classes that are required now, and who knows what kid might have need the lessons they could have learned.  I went into the program right before they upped the necessary requirements to 18 hours.  I'd gladly retake those classes, even though the gist of Strength Training was spent learning science crap in the classroom, which didn't translate directly to the weight room.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on March 30, 2008, 05:21:05 pm
Do coaches in Arkansas not have to be CPR certified? I am, also trained in ADE.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on March 31, 2008, 11:55:50 am
They don't have to be yet, but that might be changing.  They should be.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on March 31, 2008, 01:39:06 pm
Quote from: philgoodallday on March 31, 2008, 11:55:50 am
They don't have to be yet, but that might be changing.  They should be.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I agree that they should be.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 01, 2008, 08:06:14 am
Our district requires all coaches to be CPR certified and have a refresher course each year.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 07, 2008, 04:47:23 pm
So it's not being voted on until August? If passed, any idea when it would take affect? Immediately?

Has anyone heard anything else about this?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 08, 2008, 01:35:51 pm
This type of fundamental change would require a vote of all the members, which is done in late July annually.  Even if passed, it would probably be the 2009-2010 school year before it would take affect, since most of the coaches/teachers would have already been hired by then.

IMHO, not only do I beleive it won't pass, I think you will see the opposite.  I think more and more sports will require the coaching endorsement as they continue to increase in popularity and participation.  The liability of a "untrained" person out there is just too much.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 08, 2008, 01:47:08 pm
Define "untrained", please.

I was told by ADE that I wouldn't pass the Praxis II: Physical Education Content Knowledge without those classes and I did.

This isn't a jab at coaches who are "endorsed" but an endorsement doesn't necessarily make you a good coach.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 09, 2008, 08:20:26 am
Coaches are educators.  To do an effective job, you must have training.  There is a lot more to coaching than X's and O's.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 09, 2008, 10:23:21 am
Quote from: parpar on April 09, 2008, 08:20:26 am
Coaches are educators.  To do an effective job, you must have training.  There is a lot more to coaching than X's and O's.

Do you mean "educators" as in classroom teachers? If so, most coaches in Arkansas are educators.

I guess I'm confused, and a little offended, that you believe that I can not be an effective coach because I haven't had a few classes. I have had several people tell me that the classes they took through an ALP to obtain an endorsement were a waste of time and money.

I hold a B.A., a teaching certificate in two states, and I am a coach at a 5A school, and in my opinion am an effective coach.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 09, 2008, 11:17:19 am
"I have had several people tell me that the classes they took through an ALP to obtain an endorsement were a waste of time and money."

People routinely get out of a course in direct proportion to what they put into it.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 09, 2008, 11:30:49 am
I agree, but I also value the opinion of these particular individuals.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I just don't understand the principle behind the endorsement.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 09, 2008, 03:20:45 pm
What's the purpose behind any endorsement?  It shows that you have been afforded the opportunity to hear others who have been there before and/or studied the subject to share with you, through various ways including testing, an overview of the subject.  It insures your employer that you have spent at least a minimal amount of time studying your craft through a recognized program.  It tells the parent that this is not just some stooge of the street they are trusting their kids to, but a trained professional educator who has taken the time to learn about the sport he/she is teaching my child and at least has some idea of how to communicate it to them and to keep them safe while learning it.  It tells the students that this guy should know how to take care of me if there is something that goes wrong. It tells the community that your school district or school is concerned enough about  the welfare of their children that they only hire persons who have been appropriately trained to recognized minimum standards.

Are there bad doctors, lawyers, police officers, nurses, nutritionists, plumbers, truck drivers, etc. that have a wall full of endorsements or numberous codes on their licenses?  Absolutely.  But would you go to a doctor that didn't have the proper degrees, or a lawyer that had not passed the bar?  How about hiring a bus driver that doesn't have an air brakes endorsement on his CDL and drives an air brakes equipped bus with your kids on it?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 09, 2008, 10:35:57 pm
We're talking coaching here, not medicine, legal counsel, etc. Is the daily interaction with kids important? Absolutely. However, teaching and coaching is not something you learn in a classroom.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this and that's fine. If you are a coach, my hat is off to you. I wish I had the endorsement so I could get a coaching job in Arkansas. However, I can't help but wonder though if the reason some people seem to be so against the possibility of the endorsement requirements being tossed is because they are coaches who don't want there to be more competition for jobs. Maybe I'm wrong.

And, if a coaching endorsement is so vital why aren't college coaches required to have one? How about NFL coaches? Mike Leach has a law degree. He didn't major in education or kinesiology but I'd say he's a heck of a coach. Urban Meyer has a degree in psychology, Bob Stoops in Marketing.

I'm not saying the classes are not beneficial, and I hope you don't think that, but I am saying that I feel the requirement of the classes is a little much.

By the way, I have a CDL with an air brakes endorsement.  ;)
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: oldguy_21 on April 10, 2008, 09:12:39 am
The AAA is voting to do away with the endorsment this summer.  One administrator I know is saying that it will pass.  What are other people hearing about this vote?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 10, 2008, 09:38:30 am
The consensus I am hearing is "no".
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 10, 2008, 10:25:17 am
Here's a question for you guys. It was mentioned on another board.

Do you feel that the smaller districts would greatly benefit from the endorsement being tossed? Let's say they were in need of a math teacher and a coach. Let's also say they don't get any applications from math teachers who also have a coaching endorsement. Currently the district would need to hire both a math teacher and someone who has a coaching endorsement. That's two salaries. If the endorsement requirements are repealed, the district could find a math teacher who could/would/desired to coach a sport which requires an edorsement.

One more question:

Why do some sports require an endorsement while others do not? If I remember correctly, you need an endorsement for football, basketball, track and one is not needed for baseball, golf, volleyball. Why?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 10, 2008, 01:17:40 pm
It's an old law and doesn't make much sense, but back in the 60's football, basketball and track were the only things offered by most schools.  As sports were added, the existing staffs didn't have endorsements for baseball, softball, volleyball, soccer, etc., so the school administrators didn't require it.  However, beginning in about 1995, all of these sports did require a seminar course certificate of coaching and first aid, both of which now are offered on-line.  One reason was because many schools, including the top ones in size, started those prorgams with mommies and daddies coaching, because there was no money to fund the programs.  They also require the same courses of registered volunteers that may not have taken the courses at the college level.

In your first scenario, in mosts cases, there are enough people already on staff to find someone with a coaching endorsement to take the football job, so if need be they can hire just a math teacher and attache the footbal stipend to another position.  It happens all the time.  The combined salaries and stipends would still equal the same amount.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 10, 2008, 02:07:05 pm
That makes sense. Still a little goofy though.

With the first scenario, what if there is no one available with a coaching endorsement? For instance, the all the football coaches are involved in other sports. The defensive coordinator is also the assistant bball coach, the OC is the head baseball coach. At some smaller schools three coaches might be all they have. When I was a junior we only had 3 coaches. Albeit, that was 11 yrs ago.

I understand your point but I believe a lot of small schools would benefit from not having an endorsement.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on April 10, 2008, 10:00:45 pm
I started this thread, and have enjoyed the discussion. But, I am going to throw my 2 cents into the conversation.
I'm currently finishing the required classes at UCA to gain my coaching endorsement.

McKnz, I respect the fact that you passed the Praxis II without taking any courses, but that just means you have been keeping up with what's new in sports. It's been several years since I received my useless BS in PE, and things have changed so much. I've stayed around by officiating and selling sporting goods to schools and there are people out there that are stuck in the past. Athletics has changed many, many ways in just the last few years that I don't think the normal teacher is going to be up on everything. I'm not talking about X's and O's, I'm talking about training, psychology(Urban Meyer),
policies.

Yes, I don't want this to pass, because I DON'T want the extra competition. It's not that I think someone is a better coach or a better teacher. It's that a core subject teacher that has always wanted to see what coaching was like will dominate job placements.

I also think that Head coaches will start to be told WHO is going to be their asst. coaches due to the subject that the district needs. Then the team losses and the HC is let go, the core teacher stays put for the next HC.

Again, I'm new to this whole thing, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 11, 2008, 07:15:11 am
Thanks for the respect. So, I guess another question for some of you is:

Should an individual be able to test out by passing the Praxis II?

You are correct, Justafan, I have kept up with sports, training, etc. So, if I am able to pass this test without the classes, shouldn't I be allowed to obtain the endorsement?

A lot of districts (smaller ones most likely) are told who to hire for assistants anyway. Usually, at least in my experience, it's based on teaching need first. I'm sure the head coach has some say in it but, at the same time, the district's hands are tied when they can't afford to hire a coach AND a teacher.

Just a thought. I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, this whole situation just frustrates me.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: oldguy_21 on April 11, 2008, 08:33:07 am
You can test out for everything else to add a new area to your license so why not coaching?  That is the question that a lot of people should be asking.  If you need the courses to pass the test then that's fine...Take the courses.  However, if a man or woman knows enough to pass the test, why is that not good enough in this situation.  If a teacher graduated with a social studies degree but passes the english praxis II they can immediatly add that to their license.  Why don't they have to go back to school and take 27 hours of coursework?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 11, 2008, 10:05:32 am
I agree 100% and that was my point. I didn't take the classes and I passed the test.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on April 11, 2008, 10:23:41 am
Big schools won't let it pass.  Big schools always dominate AAA legislation.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 11, 2008, 10:36:19 am
But there are way more smaller schools so you would think that their administration would maybe get behind it and push it through. Maybe that's wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: SteelHog on April 16, 2008, 07:38:58 pm
Here is the problem I have with the whole deal is how difficult it is for someone that is already a teacher to get an endorsement while they work. I'm on an ALP, and I passed the praxis II on the first try before I took any classes. The only time I can take classes is over the summer, and its difficult to take the classes u need because they don't offer them. I'm working on mine at UA-FAY. The part that really made me mad was how I missed the cut off for the old requirements by a semester. UA-FAY coaching endorsement went from 6 hrs to 24 hrs May 2007. Thats a big jump.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 16, 2008, 08:47:02 pm
I hear you man. Passed the Praxis II my first try without any classes as well. I think the jump in the required classes was a statewide move to get everyone aligned. Not sure though.

I sent you a PM.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: rbhs8990 on April 16, 2008, 09:08:00 pm
It is next to impossible for a certified teacher to get the coaching endorsement at some schools.  At UCA, you can't get the "coaching endorsement" because there are 2 classes that are only offered during the fall and spring semesters....so if you teach full time, you can't do it.  The only way to do it at UCA is get your masters in kinesiology and it will come with a coaching endorsement, but it's not good until you complete the masters.  Makes it tough, because of more hours and more money
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: SteelHog on April 16, 2008, 09:50:51 pm
Honestly, it seems like they didn't think about certfied teachers that wanted to coach when they changed the hours to 21-27 hrs. The colleges benefited the most from the tuition that would be paid just to get an endorsement . If they don't change the requirements, they need to come up with a way to make it easier for certified teachers to get endorsed.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on April 17, 2008, 07:21:08 am
From what I understand about UA-Fay hours going up is, they did have 6 hrs.

They had people run up there and take them thinking they had satified the requirement only to find out that those 6 hrs had about 12 hours of pre-req's.

So they had to go back and take those.

UCA's program is tough. If you make it through it, you will be a very knowledgable, prepared, broke, coach, welling to take anything to start paying off the loans. UCA Coaches are not putting their athletes in the program due to the work load that is put on the students. And it's going to get tougher.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 17, 2008, 08:48:48 am
I will go on record as saying one thing I oppose - the ADE seems to be working in reverse.  They are putting more and more on certified teachers, while softening the requirements for non-certified persons to become teachers. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 17, 2008, 09:48:59 am
Do you mean the requirements for college students pursuing an education degree or for degree holding individuals who enter the NTLP?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: oldguy_21 on April 17, 2008, 10:46:02 am
Quote from: parpar on April 17, 2008, 08:48:48 am
I will go on record as saying one thing I oppose - the ADE seems to be working in reverse.  They are putting more and more on certified teachers, while softening the requirements for non-certified persons to become teachers. 
That is not correct.  The requirements for non-certified teachers to go through the NTL program are getting tougher each year.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 17, 2008, 11:21:36 am
I'm saying the traditional teacher licenses are having more and more requirments placed on them as opposed to the non-traditional.  Granted, all requirements are being pushed up, and there were some new regulations just issued by the ADE for non-traditional licenses, but the coursework required of experienced, traditionally licensed teachers to expand and/or keep their certifications are becoming more stringent as opposed to their non-traditional counterparts.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 17, 2008, 12:59:06 pm
I don't follow you on this one

Quote from: parpar on April 17, 2008, 11:21:36 am
the coursework required of experienced, traditionally licensed teachers to expand and/or keep their certifications are becoming more stringent as opposed to their non-traditional counterparts.

I was licensed through the NTL. I now hold a standard certification. Now that I am a teacher of record, the requirements for me to keep my job at my district are the same as someone who was traditionally certified. I have to attend the same amount of teacher-choice hours, workshops, continuing educations, seminars, etc.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 17, 2008, 01:09:46 pm
If you had been following it for 20 years like some of us you would be aware of what I was talking about.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 17, 2008, 02:13:40 pm
20 years ago I was 7, what's your point? Didn't you tell me you never taught in a classroom?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 17, 2008, 04:06:31 pm
I'm on the business side, and am responsible for keeping up with the personnel issues.  My point is not to be negative about anything.  Over the course of the last 20 years when the notion of NTL starting picking up steam because of the teacher shortage, there were ADE regulations that impacted teachers who went through the college certified programs that were not required of NTL's.   As an example, one of the many concerns I hear about from principals is the lack of classroom management skills that many, not all, NTL's have.  Many of the principals do not blame this on the NLT themselves, rather, on the lack of practice teaching, the lack of courses in measurement and evaluation, and the lack of mentoring PRIOR to being hired, all required in the traditional block.

I don't know you and I am not questioning your skills as a teacher, classroom manager, coach or anything else.  I am making broad general statements from 20+ years of working closely with school administrators on a daily basis and a daily review of all new ADE regulations as they are issued on their website.  This is one man's opinion, that's all it is.  Take it for what it is worth.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: SteelHog on April 17, 2008, 05:52:17 pm
I emailed the AAA today to see what they have to do with coaching endorsements and they said they had nothing to do with them. ADE was over all of that. How will the vote help us, even if there is one?

There is a loophole at UA-FAY. If u have taken first aid before May 2007, then u can go off of the old requirements which are 6 hrs and passing praxis II score with a current teaching license.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 17, 2008, 10:07:22 pm
Quote from: parpar on April 17, 2008, 04:06:31 pm
I'm on the business side, and am responsible for keeping up with the personnel issues.  My point is not to be negative about anything.  Over the course of the last 20 years when the notion of NTL starting picking up steam because of the teacher shortage, there were ADE regulations that impacted teachers who went through the college certified programs that were not required of NTL's.   As an example, one of the many concerns I hear about from principals is the lack of classroom management skills that many, not all, NTL's have.  Many of the principals do not blame this on the NLT themselves, rather, on the lack of practice teaching, the lack of courses in measurement and evaluation, and the lack of mentoring PRIOR to being hired, all required in the traditional block.

I don't know you and I am not questioning your skills as a teacher, classroom manager, coach or anything else.  I am making broad general statements from 20+ years of working closely with school administrators on a daily basis and a daily review of all new ADE regulations as they are issued on their website.  This is one man's opinion, that's all it is.  Take it for what it is worth.

I understand. I guess what I should've said was, what can you tell us that we've missed from the past 20 years? I'm serious. I'd like to know. This is my 3rd year of teaching and I thought that everyone was on the same level as far as CEs were concerned.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on April 18, 2008, 07:26:39 am
I talked with the ADE about a week and 1/2 ago and they had just heard about the vote. I've known about it around 2 months. Someone is out of the loop.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on April 18, 2008, 08:38:04 am
Someone from ADE out of the loop?

Come on Justafan, you don't expect us to believe that!



(...as I continue laughing hysterically at my own sarcasm.)
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on April 18, 2008, 11:52:56 am
Correct.  The ADE determines what is appropriate for an endorsement to be placed on a license.  The AAA determines what kind of endorsements, if any, it's members coaches must have.  And, don't forget, the AAA is not a building and a few folks in Little Rock.  it is a voting representative from high school and every junior/middle school in the state.  Your local voting representative, usually the principal, not a coach, has as much to say about these rules as anyone becasue her/his vote counts the same as anyone else.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: tommyt on April 23, 2008, 01:01:53 pm
I was told by the ADE that anyone with a health/pe certification (whether through traditional or non-traditional) before last year, automatically had a coaching endorsement without taking the above mentioned classes and/or tests.  However, last year, that changed, and those new teachers seeking their licenses, even that teach pe/health, must get their endoresement as well.

And as for the original topic, most of our surrounding states don't require any sort of coaching endorsement (MO/TX).  However, I, as a coach, certainly am in favor of it because it means less competition and better jobs for us (as someone mentioned earlier.)
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on April 24, 2008, 08:43:51 am
If you have a PE degree, the classes required for the endorsement are built into the curriculum.

If your degree is in another area, you probably have to add those classes.  You can usually get away with adding most of them as electives, so you're not really taking many more classes.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Spygate on April 24, 2008, 02:09:04 pm
I my finishing my endorsement right now and it is 25 hours. It was 13 and the ADE changed it. Plus your have to take the Praxis II in the Physical Education Content. Now they are trying to make it where you do even need one! All of this work for nothing!
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 25, 2008, 04:06:10 pm
Quote from: tommyt on April 23, 2008, 01:01:53 pm
  However, I, as a coach, certainly am in favor of it because it means less competition and better jobs for us (as someone mentioned earlier.)

I can understand your viewpoint, however do you not feel that having an opportunity for more coaches will help the quality of Arkansas high school sports and therefore make you more marketable?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: tigers95 on April 25, 2008, 09:24:51 pm
I know we need qualifications in education and sports, but with no set standards from one university to the next on what determines a certified coach, what is the rationale for an endorsement?  A coaching friend of mine said that these endorsement and what determines an endorsement vary from university to university.  That makes no sense.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on April 26, 2008, 08:05:58 am
I agree. That makes no sense whatsoever. But, I thought that last year they all adopted a "uniform" course program? Maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Cambodian Midget on May 01, 2008, 02:44:36 pm
Quote from: SteelHog on April 16, 2008, 07:38:58 pm
Here is the problem I have with the whole deal is how difficult it is for someone that is already a teacher to get an endorsement while they work. I'm on an ALP, and I passed the praxis II on the first try before I took any classes. The only time I can take classes is over the summer, and its difficult to take the classes u need because they don't offer them. I'm working on mine at UA-FAY. The part that really made me mad was how I missed the cut off for the old requirements by a semester. UA-FAY coaching endorsement went from 6 hrs to 24 hrs May 2007. Thats a big jump.

Don't feel to bad, I missed it by a semester too.

A summer semester at that. 

I couldn't justify staying another year in school to get a certification.  I had to give up wanting to coach.

Maybe one day I'll be in a financial situation to be able to do what and go back to school to get the endorsement. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 02, 2008, 07:32:15 am
I'm getting conflicking reports Now. A student at UCA, whose mother is a Sup, said that the vote was Wednesday and it passed. He explained it that there will be 2 online courses through the State Depart. They will be worth 10 hrs each.

Then I called the Ed depart. and they didn't know about the vote and said it really doesn't matter what the AAA wants for endorsements because they set the standards and didn't plan on changing anything at this time.

Who knows?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: johnharrison on May 02, 2008, 07:41:43 am
More likely to have an untrained idiot kill someone football or basketball?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: SteelHog on May 02, 2008, 03:51:17 pm
I emailed Lance Taylor (AAA)  today. He said the governing body is meeting in august to vote on a new proposal. The proposal would allow for pe majors, those with coaching endorsemen, or those that take online courses through NHFS(?). The nhfs deal is two online course that are only $60 a piece. Has anyone heard this yet?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: johnharrison on May 02, 2008, 04:38:11 pm
Sounds reasonable.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 02, 2008, 05:23:47 pm
I heard about the online test, but the D ED has the last word as to what you are certified to teach. Does this include coaching responsibilities?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 05, 2008, 12:02:22 pm
No.  The AAA membership sets the requirment for coaching.  The two courses are a principals of coaching course and a first aid course.  It is a programmed study, with a test submitted at the end.

Word of caution - keep your confirmations of your tests.  I did mine back in 96, then in 2006 when I was aksed to coach again, they couldn't find a record of it so I had to take a the course again.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 05, 2008, 01:12:47 pm
Where does the Praxis II come into play? 0091,0092,0856
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on May 05, 2008, 09:10:49 pm
parpar...that might have been b/c they only keep Praxis records for 10 years. Maybe that's why?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 06, 2008, 04:37:08 pm
It wasn't Praxis, it was the NFHS Coaching and First Aid Courses.  Back then it was a weekend seminar, then you mailed your test to Kansas.  I got mine back and coached three years of softball without a question, even in the state torunament.  Then, 6 years later, when they asked me to coach golf, they said they didn't have a record of the test, but they did of my attendance at the course.  Of course, I thought my coaching days were through, so I didn't bother to keep the record.  Live and learn!
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 06, 2008, 06:51:06 pm
The main vote is still in Aug. It will be in conjunction with the Sup-Prin convention in LR. The other "vote" was a district meeting where this was brought up and 90-95% of those in attendence were for doing away with the University issued endorcement.

Obviously, This is to allow the admin the ability to hire teacher positions (math, science) and then have them go to the Federation Web site and take these 2 courses to fill a coaching spot.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: harris45 on May 07, 2008, 02:49:13 pm
What is the website to take this online test?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 07, 2008, 04:03:18 pm
Try:

www.nfhs.org

That doesn't sound right, but that might get you going in the right direction.  My books are at home and I will check tonight and see if they have a more exact address.

I wouldn't do anything until after the vote in August.  I know what one poster says, but the people I talked to that actually will vote on it in August are not going to support it.  They have had issues with people going through the non-traditional programs in the past and they like that security blanket of certification.
Title: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on May 07, 2008, 09:28:17 pm
edit
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: AAAspectator on May 07, 2008, 10:05:15 pm
How will this effect people in the non-traditional program? Can anyone with a degree coach now or will they have to complete that program first? I know of one or two schools with "coaches" in the NTL program in NWA. I would think that you would have to have an education degree or it's equivalent to do this.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 08, 2008, 07:15:44 am
If it passes, and that is a big IF, it is my understanding that you will be allowed to coach football, basketball and/or track if you complete the two online courses, coaching principles and first aid, whether you are in the traditional certification program or the non-traditional program.  Under current rules, you can already coach the other sports if you complete these two on-line courses.  Of course, you can complete the college coursework also and be certified.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on May 08, 2008, 07:36:56 am
Will it need to be a first aid course from an Arkansas university, I wonder?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 08, 2008, 09:40:38 am
I think if it is certififed by the state Dept of Ed, it could be from out of state, just like other courses are accepted.  What's the difference in first aid taught at Henderson and one taught at University of Texas?  I know there is a such thing as reciprocity among states.  My daughter, in elelmentary, is moving to TN and they will accept her Arkansas License.  Sometime in the next three years, to get it renewed, she has to tak Tennessee history.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: harris45 on May 08, 2008, 10:39:23 am
Question...  I have a pe/health degree, took t & p of basketball and baseball/softball.  I did not take the praxis for coaching endorsement.  Am I still certified to coach.  I thought I had taken that test but it did not show up on my license.  That was 5 yrs ago.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 08, 2008, 06:27:00 pm
You can coach everthing but FB, BB, and TR.

It was explained to me that the proposal was originally set up for giving current employed instructors the ability to take these 2 courses and start coaching for the district they are already in.

I then asked what was going to keep the math teacher that takes the 2 courses, coaches 1 year at ABC HS from leaving and moving up the coaching ladder. I didn't get a very good answer.

Then it was explained that it was for employed teachers only and not for people getting their degree and endorsements like me.

Then I asked what would keep a district from hiring me then
letting me go and take the courses then. I didn't get a very good answer.

I also asked if there were any courses that someone could have taken during college that would sub for the Principles of Coaching and First Aid. You guessed it, I didn't get a very good answer.

I've come to the conclusion that 1. There isn't a set program (now) to get your CE. 2. The AAA and the ADE aren't on the same page. 3. If it does change, no one knows how the new program is going to work either. 4. This makes my head hurt.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: McKnz on May 08, 2008, 09:22:35 pm
#5. Get used to it, my friend
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: harris45 on May 09, 2008, 08:45:53 am
OK.  I just looked at my Praxis scores.  I have passed the Physical Education: Content Knowledge 0091 so why does my license not have Coaching Endorsement on it?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 09, 2008, 08:59:13 am
http://arkedu.state.ar.us/commemos/custview.cgi?filename=3820&sortby=date_createdx

A little off-topic but of some interest, particularly if you have an out of state license.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: AAAspectator on May 09, 2008, 03:22:32 pm
so if this passes, a guy with an accounting degree is able to coach in high school? Watch for some private schools to get creative with this. how can the state or aaa allow someone without an education degree be involved in education? They have been complaining about wasting money on athletics, now it will open the door for more coaches. The AAA is dooming itself and alot of schools
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on May 09, 2008, 03:35:18 pm
That can happen now, if the person goes and takes the coaching theory courses requirements, gets a non-traditional license.   In fact, a very successful second-year basketball coach in the 5A did exactly that.  He teaches business at school.  His teams also happen to have worn 35+ games in his first two years. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 09, 2008, 04:17:28 pm
You also need 0092, and 0856 for your coaching endorsement. 0856 is basically the same as 0091 then 0092 is a Methods and Analysis, constructed answer test.

Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: AAAspectator on May 11, 2008, 09:04:38 pm
Quote from: parpar on May 09, 2008, 03:35:18 pm
That can happen now, if the person goes and takes the coaching theory courses requirements, gets a non-traditional license.   In fact, a very successful second-year basketball coach in the 5A did exactly that.  He teaches business at school.  His teams also happen to have worn 35+ games in his first two years. 
I'm not saying that can't happen. What I'm worried about as a sports fan is schools hiring coaches who can't teach or handle a classroom and then some senator in LR butting in about mis-use of funds.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Justafan42 on May 13, 2008, 05:23:02 pm
I was announced today that in September the passing score will go up quit a bit for the Praxis II 0091. If you are thinking of taking the taking it I would get it out of the way now.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: redseam12 on May 29, 2008, 02:28:55 pm
Has 0091 always been available? I took 0092 in 8/05 and thought that was the coaching test.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on May 29, 2008, 03:40:35 pm
According to the Department of Ed. the codes ( I think it is 286 and 287) which are p-8 PE/ Leisure/Health and 7-12 PE/Leisure/ Health are now used as coaching endorsement also.

0091 test has been around for as long as I can remember, I had to take it in 1990s, then they have had to bring in more tests.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on May 29, 2008, 03:52:08 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 09, 2008, 03:22:32 pm
so if this passes, a guy with an accounting degree is able to coach in high school? Watch for some private schools to get creative with this. how can the state or aaa allow someone without an education degree be involved in education? They have been complaining about wasting money on athletics, now it will open the door for more coaches. The AAA is dooming itself and alot of schools

There are several teachers in the state that have gone the Non-Traditional Licensure route and are teaching right now and some as stated earlier are very successful. As long as there are teacher shortages throughout the state, I don't think that a senator will get involved.

Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on May 29, 2008, 04:15:56 pm
Some states only require testing in your Major and not your minor. Say for instances you are PE with Biology....Arkansas requires you to have taken the PE test and if you want to teach Biology you need the biology tests passed. One of our neighboring states only require test in your Major and if you have 18 hours or more in another field you are eligible for certifcation in that field also. So if you have a major in PE and have passed the test and you have 18 hours in science, you can be eligible for a standard teaching licence in PE and in science. When you take that and turn it in to Arkansas they will grant you both fields. This is how a lot of teachers in Arkansas are able to continue on. I do know that Arkansas is starting to crack down on this. Colleges are changing their rules to avoid this also.

I think that is why you are seeing changes in legislation. But you would be surprised how many teachers are out there teaching that have used the route above to stay in Arkansas
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on May 30, 2008, 09:12:50 am
Quote from: harris45 on May 09, 2008, 08:45:53 am
OK.  I just looked at my Praxis scores.  I have passed the Physical Education: Content Knowledge 0091 so why does my license not have Coaching Endorsement on it?

I spoke to the Education Department at ASU to make sure, but if you have completed all of their requirements for the coaching endorsement and have passed the Content test, you just have to send in a form to get it added to your license. 

Check with your University.  They will send in the form for you.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: SteelHog on June 23, 2008, 11:26:49 pm
Anybody heard any information about the upcoming AAA vote on the endorsement?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on June 25, 2008, 03:57:22 pm
Quote from: SteelHog on June 23, 2008, 11:26:49 pm
Anybody heard any information about the upcoming AAA vote on the endorsement?

Huh? What can the AAA do? It is ultimately thr department of education that has the final yay or nay.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: skipster on June 25, 2008, 04:15:44 pm
Quote from: R. A.™ on May 29, 2008, 03:52:08 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 09, 2008, 03:22:32 pm
so if this passes, a guy with an accounting degree is able to coach in high school? Watch for some private schools to get creative with this. how can the state or aaa allow someone without an education degree be involved in education? They have been complaining about wasting money on athletics, now it will open the door for more coaches. The AAA is dooming itself and alot of schools

There are several teachers in the state that have gone the Non-Traditional Licensure route and are teaching right now and some as stated earlier are very successful. As long as there are teacher shortages throughout the state, I don't think that a senator will get involved.



When my wife got her MAT at UA, quite a few of her classmates said they were taking their bachelors in education and teaching via non-traditional licensing. 

The education program at UA tells you that the only true way to teacher licensure in Arkansas is through UA's MAT program (but we all know that's not accurate).  The MAT (Master of Arts in Teaching) program includes a full year of unpaid internship (student teaching).  Many people who got their bachelors in education opted to go into teaching right away and get their license through non-traditional licensure, so they wouldn't have to go a year without a paycheck.

In my experience with the AAA and coaching endorsements, I don't think they keep tabs on things very well, or they don't apply punishments equally.  There's plenty of coaches without endorsements, coahces that don't meet the pay account rules (must be paid from teacher pay account), and volunteer coaches who get paid by the school, though they don't work there, etc., etc.

The AAA has a bunch of rules, but they don't enforce them well at all.  Besides that, AAA seems more worried about money and procedure than student-athletes.  By the way they condct themselves, you would think that high school athletics existed for Lance Taylor, not for high school kids.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on June 25, 2008, 04:39:20 pm
Skipster...It is not the AAA to keep tabs on endorsements, the department of Education does that.

I never heard of a full year of unpaid internship for the MAT. I'm currently taking grad classes at another Arkansas college with several in the MAT program that are full time and fully paid teachers. Matter of fact, one of the requirements to get into our MAT program is to be recommended by the superintendent that hired you as a employee.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: skipster on June 25, 2008, 07:12:34 pm
My wife graduated from UA Fayetteville with her MAT in May 2007.  She did a full school year (August through June) internship that was unpaid.  I was a full time grad student getting my masters and worked two part-time jobs, my graduate assistantship, and volunteer coached wrestling (unpaid) to get us by.

I wish her internship was paid -- that would have made a lot easier.

One question, though.  If the Department of Education handles endorsements, what is AAA's role?  Maybe I wasn't clear in what I said the first time, though.  AAA has certain rules about endorsements and what sports you can coach, like needing an endorsement to coach FB, basketball, or track.  What I was trying to get at is that I don't think AAA checks up regularly to make sure that coaches in those sports have those endorsements.  AAA also has rules regarding training and pay for volunteer coaches, and I don't think they monitor that, either.

I have seen coaching situations where a number of rules were violated, and the AAA did nothing about it.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on June 27, 2008, 10:09:02 am
Skipster if you are talking about an actual endorsement you have to be certified through the department of education to coach..

The AAA has rules regarding volunteer coaches and non-certified coaches, as far as what they can and can not do.

Wow, one year unpaid internship?!?!? That is horrible!
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on July 08, 2008, 01:42:05 pm
I read the actual proposal Sunday.  It would allow licensed teachers to coach ANY sport if they have completed the college coursework OR the AAA sanctioned coaching courses.  Still would not allow non-licensed teachers to be volunteers in football, basketball or track by just completing the AAA sanctioned courses.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on July 08, 2008, 02:36:08 pm
Where is a link to the proposal?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on July 08, 2008, 03:31:55 pm
I saw it the old fashioned way - printed on paper.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on July 31, 2008, 10:30:49 pm
Okay, am I reading this correctly?  Is this to say that either having the endorsement or having the two classes that AAA provides are now equally satisfactory?

And, when does the official vote take place?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on August 01, 2008, 09:02:33 am
They vote Tuesday
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on August 15, 2008, 04:46:46 pm
How did the vote go?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on August 15, 2008, 04:50:29 pm
I found it.  It passed.  Here's the link.  http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/08GovResults.pdf
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Russ PhD on September 05, 2008, 01:37:48 pm
QuoteIf a teacher graduated with a social studies degree but passes the english praxis II they can immediatly add that to their license.  Why don't they have to go back to school and take 27 hours of coursework?

This is what drives me crazy about teaching certification in general.  I have a B.A. in physics, M.S. in health physics, and a Ph.D. in nuclear engineering, but somehow the state of AR doesn't believe that qualifies me to teach high school science and math (not that I want to do that).  I would have to go take about 30 hours of education classes or be granted some sort of probationary status while finishing the classwork.

However, I am perfectly qualified to teach college physics and engineering classes.  Someone please explain this to me. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on September 05, 2008, 01:41:09 pm
You can do non-traditional licensure.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: blue4hire on September 05, 2008, 04:24:46 pm
Quote from: Russ PhD on September 05, 2008, 01:37:48 pm
QuoteIf a teacher graduated with a social studies degree but passes the english praxis II they can immediatly add that to their license.  Why don't they have to go back to school and take 27 hours of coursework?

This is what drives me crazy about teaching certification in general.  I have a B.A. in physics, M.S. in health physics, and a Ph.D. in nuclear engineering, but somehow the state of AR doesn't believe that qualifies me to teach high school science and math (not that I want to do that).  I would have to go take about 30 hours of education classes or be granted some sort of probationary status while finishing the classwork.

However, I am perfectly qualified to teach college physics and engineering classes.  Someone please explain this to me. 

You are over qualified to teach according to the pedagogy.  The reason you can't just walk into a classroom is because of the classroom management, special ed, diverse learning strategies etc..

With that being said, I am non-traditionally licensed and there is no way to prepare anyone for all of that.  The only way to do is through experience.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Russ PhD on September 05, 2008, 05:15:24 pm
Let's be clear.  I don't want to be a high school teacher.  I am doing perfectly happy with the full-time engineering job and part time professor thing. What I find intriguing is that when I "retire" and would like to train young scientist and mathematicians at a discount (for me) rate, I would have to jump through MANY hoops to get a high school that struggles to find math/science teachers to hire me.  That doesn't make any sense to me...

...UNLESS I think about teachers unions and job protection, etc. 

My two cents on the coaching endorsement is that it is a silly requirement.  I think that if a head coach wants to spend the time with a teacher to bring them up to speed to coach on his staff, he should be able to do that.  I also think the CPR and first aid certs are much more important than the list of things in the coaching endorsement class.

Interesting topic anyway
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: walterpayton on September 15, 2008, 07:18:46 am
How do you know how to teach the course if you have had no training in the "teaching" part?  That is like saying every college or pro football player coach be a coach... you have to learn to be a teacher and that is why all the education courses on teaching. 



Quote from: Russ PhD on September 05, 2008, 01:37:48 pm
QuoteIf a teacher graduated with a social studies degree but passes the english praxis II they can immediatly add that to their license.  Why don't they have to go back to school and take 27 hours of coursework?

This is what drives me crazy about teaching certification in general.  I have a B.A. in physics, M.S. in health physics, and a Ph.D. in nuclear engineering, but somehow the state of AR doesn't believe that qualifies me to teach high school science and math (not that I want to do that).  I would have to go take about 30 hours of education classes or be granted some sort of probationary status while finishing the classwork.

However, I am perfectly qualified to teach college physics and engineering classes.  Someone please explain this to me. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: bdog33 on September 17, 2008, 01:22:35 pm
I am going to say the coaching endorsement is a waste of time.  I am currently enrolled in the classes, but they have no reference on how to be a coach.  I do have a BSE and do agree that it is tough to step into a classroom with out having the proper training, I think you do need the education classes, but not the coaching endorsement. 
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: Cambodian Midget on October 04, 2008, 06:49:57 pm
Any updated news on the endorsement?  When are we going to see the requirements/when are the classes going to become available.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: parpar on October 15, 2008, 09:53:44 am
Question -

Do you have to have an ADE phys ed endorsement to coach?  Can you have an english certification, then the proper coaching endorsements, and have students assigned to you in an athletic period?
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: philgoodallday on October 15, 2008, 10:06:14 am
I have an English BSE and coaching endorsement.  You can have a sport-specific class, but not a PE class based on frameworks.
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: topone on October 19, 2008, 08:01:03 am
When is the AAA going to crack down on the unlicensed coaches on the sidelines and court?  There are still a lot of coaches who are head or assistants that aren't certified with a teaching certificate or proper coaching endorsement...
Title: Re: Coaching Endorsement
Post by: R. A.™ on October 19, 2008, 08:53:25 pm
Quote from: topone on October 19, 2008, 08:01:03 am
When is the AAA going to crack down on the unlicensed coaches on the sidelines and court?  There are still a lot of coaches who are head or assistants that aren't certified with a teaching certificate or proper coaching endorsement...

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