Someone on here from AAA or the AOA. Have a few Questions????

[ReddieKnightTrojan]

Lamar lost by 24??? Officiating??¿¿¿¿¿?? I would blame the refs too.

Lamar was down by 5 points until their starters started fouling out. You can't tell me the officiating had nothing to do with that.

Same thing happened during the CP game. Tanner Brunt fouled out by disagreeing with a call. The official who was observed by the AAA during the Region 4 tournament made the call. The same official gave CP coach a technical for being out of his box...come on...really?

[ReddieKnightTrojan]

Yes game is over all the crying in the world won't change a thing!

I would rather have 2 officials than a third who is obviously biased.

[Proud Buckaroo]

Lamar was down by 5 points until their starters started fouling out. You can't tell me the officiating had nothing to do with that.

Same thing happened during the CP game. Tanner Brunt fouled out by disagreeing with a call. The official who was observed by the AAA during the Region 4 tournament made the call. The same official gave CP coach a technical for being out of his box...come on...really?

How many times was CP coach told to back up by that ref?

[Moonshiner]

The best way to get better officials is to pay your $ to the AAA , take the free 100 question test and find you an assigner and go to work.  You will never holler at another referee,  I promise you that.

I have witnessed several off duty officials "holler", yell at, and question other officials.  Some in our area even got reprimanded for it.  I do get the point you're trying to make.
This thread has taken a bad turn and gotten off topic.  As was mentioned earlier we in Arkansas have no accountability system in place.  The only people that are against it seem to be the officials.  Other states let the coaches evaluate.  Why don't we?  If I were an official I would welcome it.  Coaches are critiiqued every night just like officials.  It's part of it.  If it's constructive, use it.
Personally I think officials should be paid based on their level.  A veteran official that is working with 2 rookies and has to carry them all night should not be paid the same as the dud he has to bail out and answer for each night.
Surely our AOA guys are trying to figure out ways to balance things out and make improvements.
Several of you have said "if you don't like the officiating then go pay the money, take the test and be one". Guys, there has to be more to it than that.  If that doesn't explain itself then....I dunno.

[HorseFeathers]

So a rookie is a "dud"....and you guys wonder why there is a shortage

[adaptedtigerfan]

I like it, HF

[FD4]

Well, anyway, congratulations to Lamar and what they accomplished this season, it was a great season for them, and could not even tell you what their record was.  Congratulations to Cedar Ridge too, I have seen CR play in the past, got to watch Austin and Spencer on the court at the same time.  Lamar has a great player moving on and so does CR.  I hope next season Lamar makes a great comeback and is in the hunt again.  Take no shame in losing to CR, the Timber Wolves beat both Forrest City and Valley View out of the 5A East.  The Mustangs are playing for a title again this year.  So you see, Lamar was one of the best in the state out there this season.

[Moonshiner]

So a rookie is a "dud"....and you guys wonder why there is a shortage

No, not all rookies are duds.  You're putting words where there weren't any.  Maybe a bad analogy on my part.  I've seen several rookies that are possibly better than some veterans.  There are referees that take issue with this as well and see it the same way.

[Moonshiner]

And maybe there wouldn't be a shortage if there was a better support structure.  An official with a high evaluation score can shove that in the face of anyone that says otherwise. 
This was asked earlier by someone else, but I'll ask again.  Do you have a better plan?  What are we doing now?? Absolutely nothing.

[TheOfficial]

The observation does not need to come from coaches involved in the game.

  The answer in my opinion is the AOA needs to hire retired officials (at least one from each region) to observe and evaluate officials.  That observer should get a game fee plus mileage for each night he goes out and turns in observations.

These observers should also be anonymous and have the freedom to observe in all areas of the state.

I think we could get some great non-bias feedback that way.

[Moonshiner]

The observation does not need to come from coaches involved in the game.

  The answer in my opinion is the AOA needs to hire retired officials (at least one from each region) to observe and evaluate officials.  That observer should get a game fee plus mileage for each night he goes out and turns in observations.

These observers should also be anonymous and have the freedom to observe in all areas of the state.

I think we could get some great non-bias feedback that way.

Ok.  That's a good idea.  Has this been suggested to the AOA?
Other states have successfully used Coach evaluations.  Not sure why Arkansas can't. 

[bluegrassboy75]

I have witnessed several off duty officials "holler", yell at, and question other officials.  Some in our area even got reprimanded for it.  I do get the point you're trying to make.
This thread has taken a bad turn and gotten off topic.  As was mentioned earlier we in Arkansas have no accountability system in place.  The only people that are against it seem to be the officials.  Other states let the coaches evaluate.  Why don't we?  If I were an official I would welcome it.  Coaches are critiiqued every night just like officials.  It's part of it.  If it's constructive, use it.
Personally I think officials should be paid based on their level.  A veteran official that is working with 2 rookies and has to carry them all night should not be paid the same as the dud he has to bail out and answer for each night.
Surely our AOA guys are trying to figure out ways to balance things out and make improvements.
Several of you have said "if you don't like the officiating then go pay the money, take the test and be one". Guys, there has to be more to it than that.  If that doesn't explain itself then....I dunno.

Moonshiner,

I respectfully disagree with the statement that the only people who don't want an accountability system are officials.  I've been one for too many years to mention, but I would love to get feedback.  I know when I kick a call, I'll be the first person over to the coach and tell them I blew it and then let them vent some frustration out on me.  As long as they aren't yelling at me like I'm one of their kids, then we're fine. 

I think that it goes both ways though, let officials grade coaches.  I've heard a lot of things come out of coaches mouths at games I've worked or just attended that if an official said it back, the coach would be on the phone with the AAA the next day.  Does that seem fair to you?

[Moonshiner]

Seems fair to me.  I think if an official puffs up and gives a Coach a T to get even, or maybe intentionally blows a call 4 trips in a row against that Coach then he has done his evaluation.  I've seen that happen many times.  If a coach is ejected I think he's been evaluated.
What I meant was officials on here seem to be against it. Not all It appears.
I also said that there are officials in favor of it. Might've been in a different post. 

[bluegrassboy75]

Seems fair to me.  I think if an official puffs up and gives a Coach a T to get even, or maybe intentionally blows a call 4 trips in a row against that Coach then he has done his evaluation.  I've seen that happen many times.  If a coach is ejected I think he's been evaluated.
What I meant was officials on here seem to be against it. Not all It appears.
I also said that there are officials in favor of it. Might've been in a different post. 

+1

Only thing is I've tossed one coach in my career.  It just so happened to be his second T and he wasn't even mad at me.  He was mad at one of my partners but wouldn't sit down and then kicked a water bottle to the wall.  Had to do it and he understood.

[Moonshiner]

+1

Only thing is I've tossed one coach in my career.  It just so happened to be his second T and he wasn't even mad at me.  He was mad at one of my partners but wouldn't sit down and then kicked a water bottle to the wall.  Had to do it and he understood.

Sounds like he earned it

[xadboy]

The observation does not need to come from coaches involved in the game.

  The answer in my opinion is the AOA needs to hire retired officials (at least one from each region) to observe and evaluate officials.  That observer should get a game fee plus mileage for each night he goes out and turns in observations.

These observers should also be anonymous and have the freedom to observe in all areas of the state.

I think we could get some great non-bias feedback that way.

+1

Uh oh, worlds are colliding! Lol

Agree with you on this 100%. Do think that would help quite a bit. There does need to be some kind of system for this and your idea is the best I've heard so far. In those evaluations they need to take note on how those 3 officials worked together. Think some work better with others. If you know what I mean.

[bluegrassboy75]

The observation does not need to come from coaches involved in the game.

  The answer in my opinion is the AOA needs to hire retired officials (at least one from each region) to observe and evaluate officials.  That observer should get a game fee plus mileage for each night he goes out and turns in observations.

These observers should also be anonymous and have the freedom to observe in all areas of the state.

I think we could get some great non-bias feedback that way.

The only thing is the AOA has had observers for years.  I've had one night that one came to the game I was working and that was at a Regional Tournament.  I agree with you and Moonshiner that we need them, but I think we can get part feedback from coaches and part from observers to determine post season assignments.   Also, officials can place feedback on coaches throughout the season as well.  Best of both worlds.

[Moonshiner]

The only thing is the AOA has had observers for years.  I've had one night that one came to the game I was working and that was at a Regional Tournament.  I agree with you and Moonshiner that we need them, but I think we can get part feedback from coaches and part from observers to determine post season assignments.   Also, officials can place feedback on coaches throughout the season as well.  Best of both worlds.

Not every coach is going to give an emotionally laced evaluation.  Not all are jack wagons. Looks like the AOA would want to work closely with the coaches.  Or even administrators.  Even though admin types are usually watching the crowd. Or should be.  Paid evaluators is a great idea.  As long as it's done the right way. 
Do the current observers sit down with each official with a professional growth program?  From my experience these guys are rarely seen.  Only hear from them if there's an issue.  And even then it has to have been reported to AOA officially.  Usually that's the case anyway.

[bluegrassboy75]

I can only tell you my one experience with the Observer.

Regional Tournament Semi-Final. Girls game went to OT then I had a last second three that I called good to send it to Double OT. Second one went smooth better team won. He came in said we called a heck of a game and that he was proud of us and walked out.

[WarriorFan]

Someone needs to evaluate the officials besides other officials. How hard would it be to set up a online evaluation form online. Coaches/AD have to sign in within 24 hours of game. Have a a few questions and then a comment section. Also I think that coaches need to work with assignors better, if a coach doesnt want a certain official then he should have the right to refuse that official. And the assignor should make sure that he doesnt have that official on the road as well.

[Moonshiner]

I can only tell you my one experience with the Observer.

Regional Tournament Semi-Final. Girls game went to OT then I had a last second three that I called good to send it to Double OT. Second one went smooth better team won. He came in said we called a heck of a game and that he was proud of us and walked out.

So you've officiated all these years and had one interaction with an observer?  And even then it was a regional semifinal?
I've been told by an official that the way to get a state tournament is to go to a certain big dogs camp.  Pay him $150 for the camp and your suddenly in as a state tournament caliber official. The big dog is buddies with Mr. AOA.
That seems like the most improper way of doing things.  If that's accurate information anyway.
But that's none of my business🐸

[Moonshiner]

Someone needs to evaluate the officials besides other officials. How hard would it be to set up a online evaluation form online. Coaches/AD have to sign in within 24 hours of game. Have a a few questions and then a comment section. Also I think that coaches need to work with assignors better, if a coach doesnt want a certain official then he should have the right to refuse that official. And the assignor should make sure that he doesnt have that official on the road as well.

That makes too much sense.

[bluegrassboy75]

The assignor I work with doesn't assign games to people that the coaches have scratched and we get to pick schools that we want to scratch as well. I scratched one school just because my son graduated from there in 2014 so he still has friends that play.  There is only one school in his assigning area that may get officials they have scratched for only one reason....they've scratched most of his officials so they can hire their own instead of using who the conference uses.

I also look at it this way, if a coach doesn't want me there then I don't want to be there. Fans don't pay to see me, they pay to see the kids. I tell the captain's this all the time. Listen to us and we will try to talk you out of fouls and violations so I can only blow my whistle when necessary and not look for stuff to call.

Again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I have no issues in coaches evaluating me butin return, I get to evaluate the coach as far as professionalism and conduct on his bench. Fair is fair. That way everybody can get along better.

[Moonshiner]

The assignor I work with doesn't assign games to people that the coaches have scratched and we get to pick schools that we want to scratch as well. I scratched one school just because my son graduated from there in 2014 so he still has friends that play.  There is only one school in his assigning area that may get officials they have scratched for only one reason....they've scratched most of his officials so they can hire their own instead of using who the conference uses.

I also look at it this way, if a coach doesn't want me there then I don't want to be there. Fans don't pay to see me, they pay to see the kids. I tell the captain's this all the time. Listen to us and we will try to talk you out of fouls and violations so I can only blow my whistle when necessary and not look for stuff to call.

Again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I have no issues in coaches evaluating me butin return, I get to evaluate the coach as far as professionalism and conduct on his bench. Fair is fair. That way everybody can get along better.

There are a lot of good guys that officiate.  Sounds like you're one of them. I think Coaches should hear some of the comments that are being said before, during, and after games between officials.  Some might get bootyhurt, but if it's constructive lets do it.  If it helps the game lets do it.

[bluegrassboy75]

There are a lot of good guys that officiate.  Sounds like you're one of them. I think Coaches should hear some of the comments that are being said before, during, and after games between officials.  Some might get bootyhurt, but if it's constructive lets do it.  If it helps the game lets do it.

+1 I agree.  That goes both ways.  Some officials will get bootyhurt as well and I could be one of those but if I miss a big call that I think I got right but video shows different, I want to know.  That way I can learn from my mistakes as well.

The AOA and the AHSCA need to get a task force together and get this right.  And if the AOA wants to send observers also, I'm fine with that as well.  My main request on this is that they not be from the same area that way they're not buddies with the guys on the floor and can give an honest opinion to the guys after the game.  It will cost the AAA a little more money but let's do it for the good of the game.

[Radiotalker]

There are a lot of good guys that officiate.  Sounds like you're one of them. I think Coaches should hear some of the comments that are being said before, during, and after games between officials.  Some might get bootyhurt, but if it's constructive lets do it.  If it helps the game lets do it.

I use to work basketball but had to give it up because of work. Hadn't worked in over 5 years, and one day I got a letter saying that I had been nominated to work in the 4A east conference. On top of that I was black balled by one of the schools. I never worked one of their games......home or on the road.

[TheOfficial]

+1

Uh oh, worlds are colliding! Lol

Agree with you on this 100%. Do think that would help quite a bit. There does need to be some kind of system for this and your idea is the best I've heard so far. In those evaluations they need to take note on how those 3 officials worked together. Think some work better with others. If you know what I mean.

Lol.
Yep, know what ya mean.

[TheOfficial]

The only thing is the AOA has had observers for years.  I've had one night that one came to the game I was working and that was at a Regional Tournament.  I agree with you and Moonshiner that we need them, but I think we can get part feedback from coaches and part from observers to determine post season assignments.   Also, officials can place feedback on coaches throughout the season as well.  Best of both worlds.

The observers they've had are usuall just given to people to keep them from officiating.  None have been a paid position and none used knowledgeable experienced officials.

[TheOfficial]

Someone needs to evaluate the officials besides other officials. How hard would it be to set up a online evaluation form online. Coaches/AD have to sign in within 24 hours of game. Have a a few questions and then a comment section. Also I think that coaches need to work with assignors better, if a coach doesnt want a certain official then he should have the right to refuse that official. And the assignor should make sure that he doesnt have that official on the road as well.

Unless you've officiated at a high level, then you have no idea how to observe and evaluate. 

[sampdawg]

The assignor I work with doesn't assign games to people that the coaches have scratched and we get to pick schools that we want to scratch as well. I scratched one school just because my son graduated from there in 2014 so he still has friends that play.  There is only one school in his assigning area that may get officials they have scratched for only one reason....they've scratched most of his officials so they can hire their own instead of using who the conference uses.

I also look at it this way, if a coach doesn't want me there then I don't want to be there. Fans don't pay to see me, they pay to see the kids. I tell the captain's this all the time. Listen to us and we will try to talk you out of fouls and violations so I can only blow my whistle when necessary and not look for stuff to call.

Again, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I have no issues in coaches evaluating me butin return, I get to evaluate the coach as far as professionalism and conduct on his bench. Fair is fair. That way everybody can get along better.
[

[LAfootball fan]

As a fan, you just don't see what officials are seeing when they make calls.  Angles are EVERYTHING and can be deceiving to even the best official.  Played baseball and softball all my life and then took the test and became a softball umpire.  Little did I know what I was stepping into. 

Until you have been there and having to make a split second call from YOUR vantage point, you just do not adequately realize how difficult it can be.  As a fan, you can be at a vantage point that gives you a CLEAR view of the call but the official having to make the call may be seeing it COMPLETELY different from his vantage point.  THAT to me is why coaches should really be limited in how they evaluate an official.  Unless you have been an official, you really do not understand how difficult the job really is.  That is why officials that grade other officials have a better understanding of what they are grading and how to properly grade an official. 

The only thing I would have coaches grade as far as officials, is whether they called the game in a professional manner, kept their cool while calling the game, and kept the game under control to the best of their ability as far as player interactions.   Anything other than that and you get into too much subjectivity on calls being made and coaches having too much invested in the outcome to really grade objectively.

[TheOfficial]

As a fan, you just don't see what officials are seeing when they make calls.  Angles are EVERYTHING and can be deceiving to even the best official.  Played baseball and softball all my life and then took the test and became a softball umpire.  Little did I know what I was stepping into. 

Until you have been there and having to make a split second call from YOUR vantage point, you just do not adequately realize how difficult it can be.  As a fan, you can be at a vantage point that gives you a CLEAR view of the call but the official having to make the call may be seeing it COMPLETELY different from his vantage point.  THAT to me is why coaches should really be limited in how they evaluate an official.  Unless you have been an official, you really do not understand how difficult the job really is.  That is why officials that grade other officials have a better understanding of what they are grading and how to properly grade an official. 

The only thing I would have coaches grade as far as officials, is whether they called the game in a professional manner, kept their cool while calling the game, and kept the game under control to the best of their ability as far as player interactions.   Anything other than that and you get into too much subjectivity on calls being made and coaches having too much invested in the outcome to really grade objectively.

Absolutely!!!

[Moonshiner]

Unless you've officiated at a high level, then you have no idea how to observe and evaluate.

So a guy that has worked solely class A for 20 years has no business evaluating a 3rd year guy that has been taken along on a handful of 5A games?

[ReddieKnightTrojan]

Just for kicks and giggles, an old ball coach once told me that fans want to coach, officials want to watch the game, and coaches want to officiate. It's a vicious triangle.

[bluegrassboy75]

Just for kicks and giggles, an old ball coach once told me that fans want to coach, officials want to watch the game, and coaches want to officiate. It's a vicious triangle.

Never heard that one but I like it +1

[xadboy]

Just for kicks and giggles, an old ball coach once told me that fans want to coach, officials want to watch the game, and coaches want to officiate. It's a vicious triangle.

+1

Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are!

[ErnestTBass]

The observation does not need to come from coaches involved in the game.

  The answer in my opinion is the AOA needs to hire retired officials (at least one from each region) to observe and evaluate officials.  That observer should get a game fee plus mileage for each night he goes out and turns in observations.

These observers should also be anonymous and have the freedom to observe in all areas of the state.

I think we could get some great non-bias feedback that way.

Retired coaches might be an asset to this process also!

[Eagle20]

Retired coaches might be an asset to this process also!

I am sure they have had enough already!

[3 Dollar]

Unless you've officiated at a high level, then you have no idea how to observe and evaluate.
[/quote]

And where is your high level line drawn?

[3 Dollar]

I dont think there would be home cooking if we graded officials. grading of officials would be only used for tournaments. I know for a fact that if you go to some to schools for big games they will have their " crew" there for that game. I think everyone just wants the officials to have some accountability. At this moment, who do they answer to?

1.  Coaches grade the officials during the regular season.
2.  That grading scale will be used to determine if they get to work tournaments. District, Regionals, State
3.  If a official gets bad marks for a certain period of time, say two years in a row. They must take a officials course ran    and paid for by the AAA.
4.  If they dont improve the following season then they must work only jr high or 7th grade.

Anyone else have a better idea??

Sounds to me like you are a coach who has a problem with specific officials.  If that's so, call the AAA.  Don't get on a message board and air your feelings.  Not much class in that!

[3 Dollar]

Every time they put on the black and white striped shirt and whistle. It's their job to control the game in an impartial fashion. When you have games like second half of the Lamar game, players become frustrated.

Put on the stripes and show us how it's suppose to be done!!!!

[3 Dollar]

If you don't like my opinion then don't read it.
[/quote]

That can go both ways!  If you don't like what their responses are to your opinions, then don't voice them!!!!

[xadboy]

If you don't like my opinion then don't read it.


That can go both ways!  If you don't like what their responses are to your opinions, then don't voice them!!!!

I'll voice what ever I want to voice. If I wasn't handicapped and physically able to I would have puting on the black and white. 3 dolls just be quite and let grownups talk. If you don't have anything to say on the topic of discussion then just shut your pie hole.

[3 Dollar]

Hit a nerve there?   I'm terribly sorry for your handicap and disability.  These things aren't out in the open on these forums.  Along with other things we (notice I said we) hide behind.

[3 Dollar]

I'll voice what ever I want to voice. If I wasn't handicapped and physically able to I would have puting on the black and white. 3 dolls just be quite and let grownups talk. If you don't have anything to say on the topic of discussion then just shut your pie hole.

I see there's a lot of hate and deceit in your voice.  You'll be in my prayers!

[xadboy]

I see there's a lot of hate and deceit in your voice.  You'll be in my prayers!

No hate, just dislike it when someone comes at with nothing intelligent to say. If you don't want to discuss the subject then just go away. Oh it must be true what they say about 3 dollar!

[3 Dollar]

I'll voice what ever I want to voice. If I wasn't mentally handicapped and physically able to I would have puting on the black and white. 3 dolls just be quite and let grownups talk. If you don't have anything to say on the topic of discussion then just shut your pie hole.

Just thought I'd help you out.

[xadboy]

Just thought I'd help you out.

When & where?

[ReddieKnightTrojan]

When & where?

Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

[xadboy]

Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

Lol! O Lord! Lol!