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Fair Catch Rule

Started by Wildcatalumni21, August 25, 2018, 08:52:52 am

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Wildcatalumni21

Ball is punted, punt returner waves both hands for a fair catch, 2 defenders let up and peel off so don't make contact with the returner, ball hits the ground right by returner and bounces straight up, returner then catches the ball on the bounce and returns it for a TD. Should this have been allowed?

athletic supporter

Quote from: Wildcatalumni21 on August 25, 2018, 08:52:52 am
Ball is punted, punt returner waves both hands for a fair catch, 2 defenders let up and peel off so don't make contact with the returner, ball hits the ground right by returner and bounces straight up, returner then catches the ball on the bounce and returns it for a TD. Should this have been allowed?

Oh boy! Didn't get the answer you wanted on a different thread so start this one.  :o

Wildcatalumni21

Quote from: athletic supporter on August 25, 2018, 10:08:35 am
Oh boy! Didn't get the answer you wanted on a different thread so start this one.  :o
No just looking for unbiased, neutral input. Have a nice day 🙋🏼‍♂️

7575TM

Quote from: Wildcatalumni21 on August 25, 2018, 08:52:52 am
Ball is punted, punt returner waves both hands for a fair catch, 2 defenders let up and peel off so don't make contact with the returner, ball hits the ground right by returner and bounces straight up, returner then catches the ball on the bounce and returns it for a TD. Should this have been allowed?
where were his hands? above his head or at his waist?

Wildcatalumni21

Quote from: 7575TM on August 25, 2018, 11:04:34 am
where were his hands? above his head or at his waist?
Waved both hands in an upward circular motion right at head level

athletic supporter

Amazing how that play scored 4 more TDs

Wildcatalumni21


football_referee

in one word NO this should not have been allowed
Rule 2-9-3 A valid fair catch signal is the extending and  lateral waving of one arm at full arm's length above the head any R player.

Rule 2-9-4 An invalid fair-catch signal is any signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered


Rule 6-5-5 No receiver may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair catch signal has been given by any R Player


Penalty for the infraction of 6-5-5 is delay of game by R


Wildcatalumni21

Quote from: football_referee on August 25, 2018, 04:00:09 pm
in one word NO this should not have been allowed
Rule 2-9-3 A valid fair catch signal is the extending and  lateral waving of one arm at full arm's length above the head any R player.

Rule 2-9-4 An invalid fair-catch signal is any signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered


Rule 6-5-5 No receiver may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair catch signal has been given by any R Player


Penalty for the infraction of 6-5-5 is delay of game by R
Doesn't is still apply if the ball is not initially caught and bounces one time in the air?

football_referee


Wildcatalumni21

August 26, 2018, 08:42:20 pm #10 Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 08:48:46 pm by Wildcatalumni21
Quote from: football_referee on August 26, 2018, 05:08:01 pm
Yes
Thank you. The refs at Hector Friday night allowed the Atkins returner to do this and he returned it for a TD right before half and was a huge momentum swing. Yes they wore us down in 2nd half but not the point. Went from being a 10-6 game at half to 17-6 which is a huge difference

athletic supporter

Just because his username is football_referee doesn't mean his word is the "law". I personally know one white hat that I wouldn't trust to know the rules if my kids life depended on it. Plus there was another veteran football official there watching the game (not from Atkins or Hector) who I talked to right after it happened and he never brought it up and we talk officiating all the time.

Rocket23

Football cannot be advanced once a fair catch signal is given, whether it hits the ground or not. 

football_referee

Wildcat asked a simple question I gave him the answer straight out of the 2018 NFHS rule book so yes that is the law in which Highschool football in Arkansas plays by and it does not impress me that you and the veteran white hat talked about after that play I have seen in my 20 plus year many mistakes by veteran white hats. And yes I will include my self in making mistakes we are all human and are not perfect. But when my crew and I hit the field we strive to put the best product on the field it's not about the guys in stripes but is about the 2 teams that practice all week and plays their heart out and leaves it all on the field To the fans I am going to add just because you see the something called  on Saturday and Sunday does not mean that it will be call like that in the Highschool on Friday nights. Both the NCAA and NFL have different roles then Highschool at one time there were approx 300 rule differences between NFHS and the NCAA and yes some officials see it happen on Saturday and they call it that way on Friday

arreferee

Quote from: athletic supporter on August 26, 2018, 09:56:20 pm
Just because his username is football_referee doesn't mean his word is the "law". I personally know one white hat that I wouldn't trust to know the rules if my kids life depended on it. Plus there was another veteran football official there watching the game (not from Atkins or Hector) who I talked to right after it happened and he never brought it up and we talk officiating all the time.

And just because your name is athletic supporter doesn't mean you support anything.  The question was asked and answered with rules references.  I'm not sure what else you want, other than justification from someone that your team was in the right when it was actually wrong. 

Either this veteran football official forgot about that play that was obviously wrong, didn't see it because he was in the bathroom or at the concession stand when this happened, or simply doesn't know the rule.  I always wonder about the "veteran football officials" who are sitting in the stands on Friday nights.  Why are they in the stands instead of working a game somewhere? 

Anytime any signal is given by the receiving team during a kick, that kick cannot be advanced.  Signaling gives them the right to attempt to catch or recover the kick (and not return it) without the threat of being hit. 

athletic supporter

Quote from: arreferee on August 27, 2018, 09:41:03 am
And just because your name is athletic supporter doesn't mean you support anything.  The question was asked and answered with rules references.  I'm not sure what else you want, other than justification from someone that your team was in the right when it was actually wrong. 

Either this veteran football official forgot about that play that was obviously wrong, didn't see it because he was in the bathroom or at the concession stand when this happened, or simply doesn't know the rule.  I always wonder about the "veteran football officials" who are sitting in the stands on Friday nights.  Why are they in the stands instead of working a game somewhere? 

Anytime any signal is given by the receiving team during a kick, that kick cannot be advanced.  Signaling gives them the right to attempt to catch or recover the kick (and not return it) without the threat of being hit. 

Actually I support several things. My team won by 30 points. We'll give that TD back. Now we won by 24. The guy who wasn't working on Friday night might not have been since it was week 0 and there weren't many games in our area. Who knows? I'm sure you have the answer though

arreferee

Quote from: athletic supporter on August 27, 2018, 10:21:25 am
Actually I support several things. My team won by 30 points. We'll give that TD back. Now we won by 24. The guy who wasn't working on Friday night might not have been since it was week 0 and there weren't many games in our area. Who knows? I'm sure you have the answer though

I don't have the answer to that question, but most of the high school officials I know were actually working Friday night.  And, how many games there are in your area shouldn't have any impact on whether or not an official is working.  The crews I know work all over the state each week. 

george7244

Quote from: arreferee on August 27, 2018, 09:41:03 am
And just because your name is athletic supporter doesn't mean you support anything.  The question was asked and answered with rules references.  I'm not sure what else you want, other than justification from someone that your team was in the right when it was actually wrong. 

Either this veteran football official forgot about that play that was obviously wrong, didn't see it because he was in the bathroom or at the concession stand when this happened, or simply doesn't know the rule.  I always wonder about the "veteran football officials" who are sitting in the stands on Friday nights.  Why are they in the stands instead of working a game somewhere? 

Anytime any signal is given by the receiving team during a kick, that kick cannot be advanced.  Signaling gives them the right to attempt to catch or recover the kick (and not return it) without the threat of being hit. 
.      Maybe that veteran has put in his years and no longer calls

football_referee

[quote author=arreferee link=topic=156396.msg3609130#msg3609130 date=1535380863.  I always wonder about the "veteran football officials" who are sitting in the stands on Friday nights.  Why are they in the stands instead of working a game somewhere? 
[/quote]

I for one did not have a game last Friday (still not sure about playing in week 0) the assignors I work for only had limited number of games to assign for week 0 and when you have more crews then games some great crews get left out.  But I assure you I have a full boat of games on Friday nights (10). This coming up Friday my crew has a game but due to work conflict I will not be at that game.  When I don't have a game on Friday nights I usually don't go to game because I can not enjoy the game for having to answer rule questions or listening to did the crew get that call right or what did you think of that call. I really don't mind answering questions but some time I want to be Joe q.Public and just watch a game, then after the game is over I spend hours each week all year long watching game films studying mechanics, and perfecting my skills (if ever I find my self not learning some about officiating game that's the time I will hang up my whistle). If I do go to a game when I am off I try to avoid the Stands and sit in the press box if there is room or I am standing on the sidelines or up next to the fence. And when I am watching a game I will never criticize the crew, as I have no ideal on what those guys/gals have seen on the field. I may then reach out to the crew after the game and asked them what they saw and any crew worth their salt feels the same way. Your great crews go out time in and time out for the young men and women playing the game. And I can assure you that 99.9999999% of the crews working wants to be a factor in the win or loss of a game. A good game for my crew is to get in work the game and leave and nobody knows our names. Now I can't think of one game where the officials were the sole reason at team won or lost a football game, it is usually a combination of things like a fumble or pass dropped for a touchdown or poor clock management. No matter the outcome we as official make 50% of the fans happy and 50% of the fans mad.

Now with that said I will not set here watching the threads of fans totally bashing the officials,name calling or even calling out a official by name, that will get you a vacation from the board and Lanny and the other admins will agree with me there in no place on this board that it will be tolerated and consider this as your warning.

What this  particular  Board topix is for is to for fans to ask questions about plays, situations  and enforcement that you have questions about. My self and other officials will and gladly answer questions, the answers you get from me will come straight out of the NFHS rule book and case book,with the rule reference noted. When I answer it will be based on the question asked by the individual poster no more or no less unless I have knowledge of the play in question. 

I along with other officials may not get back to you right away because believe it or not we do have lives outside of football.

For y'all that don't know one of the big contributors to the topix was Rulesman, he passed away earlier this year after a 22 month battle with cancer.  He was a wealth of knowledge, if I got confused or needed a quick answer on rule  references he was my first call. He will be greatly missed.

My hope is for all of us to have a great season and learn from each other.
Don't be afraid to ask questions there is no question silly. Matter the only silly question is the unasked question

If you feel like venting,griping or complaining of a call or a crew you can always pm me. 
Thanks
Football_referee

arreferee

Quote from: george7244 on August 27, 2018, 06:15:23 pm
.      Maybe that veteran has put in his years and no longer calls

Maybe it's just a difference of terminology.  If I was in that boat, I would be a retired official. 

Shoe21

Quote from: arreferee on August 28, 2018, 08:54:57 am
Maybe it's just a difference of terminology.  If I was in that boat, I would be a retired official.

Actually the official he is talking about is not retired he calls college games on saturdays and he said there is no fair catch rule in high school once the ball hits the ground it is a live ball. Now however he did say once the ball hits the ground in college and Pros the ball is a dead ball. I will take his word on this rule he has called many AR state championship games and a ton of games at the collegiate level.

BigR

It's a dead ball when possessed.

arreferee

Quote from: Shoe21 on August 28, 2018, 09:27:22 am
Actually the official he is talking about is not retired he calls college games on saturdays and he said there is no fair catch rule in high school once the ball hits the ground it is a live ball. Now however he did say once the ball hits the ground in college and Pros the ball is a dead ball. I will take his word on this rule he has called many AR state championship games and a ton of games at the collegiate level.

Unfortunately, he is incorrect on this one.  See the rule reference football referee posted above:

Rule 6-5-5 No receiver may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair catch signal has been given by any R Player

Like the official you are referring to, I've called many college games too (maybe as many college games as high school games at this point in my career).  And, if he is like me, he doesn't study the high school rules anymore so he doesn't confuse the two.  Or, maybe there was just some miscommunication here as this statement is incorrect too:

"Now however he did say once the ball hits the ground in college and Pros the ball is a dead ball." 

The ball isn't dead once it hits the ground in any set of rules that I'm aware of.  Watch any game this week or weekend and see what happens when the ball is punted.  Many times it will not be caught, but the return man will pick it up and run with it.  If he's blowing the ball dead once it hits the ground, he won't be calling college football very long.  That's why I think it was just miscommunication. 

Rocket23

He might be confusing the high school kickoff rule regarding touchbacks. Once the ball crosses the goal line on a kickoff, it is dead.  It cannot be advanced out of the end zone.

arreferee

Quote from: Rocket23 on August 29, 2018, 12:21:34 pm
He might be confusing the high school kickoff rule regarding touchbacks. Once the ball crosses the goal line on a kickoff, it is dead.  It cannot be advanced out of the end zone.

I didn't think about that one.  Also, a free kick (kickoff) that touches the ground in the endzone (untouched by the receiving team), it automatically dead. 

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