Conference Doubleheaders

rbhs8990 · March 30, 2016, 09:12:16 am

I know some conferences play varsity doubleheaders and some do not, but for the teams that do, what are your rules or understandings of the length of games? We have ALWAYS played two seven inning games still using run rules. Last night the umpires arrived and said a DH is 2 five inning games and he enforced it. He said it's in the AAA handbook under the tiebreaker rule and even though our conference has always played 2 seven inning games, he said the AAA overrides this. Anyone else play two fives? Just curious

baller72 · March 30, 2016, 09:19:30 am

Did both coaches agree to this?? Our conference does not play conference DH's (I wish we would though), but if we did, I can not imagine any of us agreeing to that. That sounds like blue wanted it to be a short night.

NEASPORTSFAN · March 30, 2016, 09:23:06 am

That is not a AAA rule. That is baloney. When tiebreakers depend on run differential and you take 4 innings off the board, that is not right. Unless the coaches agreed to that.

groundhawg · March 30, 2016, 09:27:53 am

Interesting. Wondering why all of a sudden this comes out now. They tried to say that at our game last night. The coaches disagreed and they ended up playing 7 in both.

rbhs8990 · March 30, 2016, 09:29:18 am

He was using the tiebreaker rule for games being tied and you put a runner on second base to start the next inning. It says you do this after the seventh inning of a single game and the fifth inning of a doubleheader. And no, I didn't agree to it, but the other coach basically did. Our AD even came out there explaining how our conference works, and the umpire said it's a rule so that is how we are doing it.

baller72 · March 30, 2016, 09:33:36 am

Quote from: rbhs8990 on March 30, 2016, 09:29:18 am
He was using the tiebreaker rule for games being tied and you put a runner on second base to start the next inning. It says you do this after the seventh inning of a single game and the fifth inning of a doubleheader. And no, I didn't agree to it, but the other coach basically did. Our AD even came out there explaining how our conference works, and the umpire said it's a rule so that is how we are doing it.

SOunds like that ump needs to be removed from your assigner's list, and a discussion needs to be had explaining the rule's correct meaning to the ump and the assigner. Just saying. I hate that for you.

Lionheart88 · March 30, 2016, 09:38:07 am

Some things I was able to Google up:

On p.80 of the AAA Handbook ( http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2015-16_AAA_Handbook.pdf ) is the following (emphasis mine)

QuoteRule 8. EXTRA-INNING TIEBREAKING PROCEDURE. While using the tiebreaker, each half-inning
shall begin by placing a runner on second base. That runner shall be the player in the batting order that
precedes the lead off batter in that inning. The game shall then proceed a full inning until a winner is
determined in that inning.
This procedure shall be used in games that are tied after seven innings of a single game or five innings
of a doubleheader.

According to the NFHS Softball rules I found online ( https://bsbproduction.s3.amazonaws.com/portals/7206/templates/docs/2015nfhssoftball.pdf ), Rule 4-2-3 Note 2 :

Quote4-2-3 Note 2: By state association adoption, the number of innings for one or both games in a
doubleheader may be scheduled for five innings. Current state association game-ending
procedures still apply.

I guess I can see where he might have pulled his understanding from, but I'm a soccer guy and don't know the softball rules well. Anyone know if Arkansas has adopted an official position? I didn't see one in the AAA Handbook.

dc3 · March 30, 2016, 12:29:13 pm

Quote from: Lionheart88 on March 30, 2016, 09:38:07 am
Some things I was able to Google up:

On p.80 of the AAA Handbook ( http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2015-16_AAA_Handbook.pdf ) is the following (emphasis mine)
According to the NFHS Softball rules I found online ( https://bsbproduction.s3.amazonaws.com/portals/7206/templates/docs/2015nfhssoftball.pdf ), Rule 4-2-3 Note 2 :
I guess I can see where he might have pulled his understanding from, but I'm a soccer guy and don't know the softball rules well. Anyone know if Arkansas has adopted an official position? I didn't see one in the AAA Handbook.

We had a DH last night, non-conference, that was two 5 inning games.
I don't know if it's a AAA thing though.. However, I do see how it can be interpreted that way.

LuckoftheIrish · March 30, 2016, 01:06:01 pm

The wording in 4-2-3 states "may be scheduled" not "will' or "shall". It sounds like it's an option that should be made by the schools, not the officials. Maybe used for non-conference games, but never a conference game.

baller72 · March 30, 2016, 01:50:37 pm

Quote from: LuckoftheIrish on March 30, 2016, 01:06:01 pm
The wording in 4-2-3 states "may be scheduled" not "will' or "shall". It sounds like it's an option that should be made by the schools, not the officials. Maybe used for non-conference games, but never a conference game.

Agreed! Umpires should NOT make that decision.

dc3 · March 30, 2016, 03:04:49 pm

Quote from: LuckoftheIrish on March 30, 2016, 01:06:01 pm
The wording in 4-2-3 states "may be scheduled" not "will' or "shall". It sounds like it's an option that should be made by the schools, not the officials. Maybe used for non-conference games, but never a conference game.

Right, but that is NFHS wording. To me the AAA wording, that is talking about tie-breaking procedures, makes it sound like DH's should be 5 innings. Because if you play 7 innings, and it is tied at the end of the 7th but you are about to turn around and play a DH, then the wording doesn't define what you would do in that situation. It only points out single games (7 innings) and DH games (5 innings) Now, do I think this is clear? NO! But that is how I, and can see where others, interpret it.

Lionheart88 · March 30, 2016, 03:26:33 pm

Quote from: LuckoftheIrish on March 30, 2016, 01:06:01 pm
The wording in 4-2-3 states "may be scheduled" not "will' or "shall". It sounds like it's an option that should be made by the schools, not the officials. Maybe used for non-conference games, but never a conference game.

"By state association adoption" is important there. That implies that yes, it's optional, but it's something the state Association (the AAA in our case) should choose to take it or leave it for the whole state, not individual schools or conferences. AFAIK the AAA doesn't have an official position though. Anyone know where something like that would be, if not in the handbook?

Sweet · March 31, 2016, 04:11:50 am

Are DHs played to keep from having a district tournament?

Lionheart88 · March 31, 2016, 04:24:45 am

I imagine it's usually to reduce travel. In the 5A South, for instance, I'm sure White Hall (and Watson Chapel) would love to play a single doubleheader with DeQueen, with each team making the 3+ hour drive in alternating years, rather than play a home & home every year.

BICMUSTANG4LIFE · March 31, 2016, 08:58:52 am

AAA states: Softball
Rule 8. EXTRA-INNING TIEBREAKING PROCEDURE. While using the tiebreaker, each half-inning shall begin by placing a runner on second base. That runner shall be the player in the batting order that precedes the lead off batter in that inning. The game shall then proceed a full inning until a winner is determined in that inning.
This procedure shall be used in games that are tied after seven innings of a single game or five innings of a doubleheader

Interesting... Why would it be considered extra-innings in a DH after 5inn.? Looks like ole blue may have been right on point.

Sweet · April 02, 2016, 09:46:42 am

Quote from: BICMUSTANG4LIFE on March 31, 2016, 08:58:52 am
AAA states: Softball
Rule 8. EXTRA-INNING TIEBREAKING PROCEDURE. While using the tiebreaker, each half-inning shall begin by placing a runner on second base. That runner shall be the player in the batting order that precedes the lead off batter in that inning. The game shall then proceed a full inning until a winner is determined in that inning.
This procedure shall be used in games that are tied after seven innings of a single game or five innings of a doubleheader

Interesting... Why would it be considered extra-innings in a DH after 5inn.? Looks like ole blue may have been right on point.

That's for a tie breaker. According to the original post it was stated before the first started.

BICMUSTANG4LIFE · April 02, 2016, 12:43:19 pm

Exactly.. He told them up front it would be 2 5inn. Games. Using the information found in this rule.

dc3 · April 04, 2016, 12:49:28 pm

Quote from: Sweet on April 02, 2016, 09:46:42 am

That's for a tie breaker. According to the original post it was stated before the first started.

Well you wouldn't need a tie-breaker in the 5th if you were playing 7...

LowerAR · April 05, 2016, 08:30:15 am

The game is played by the agreement of the two schools, which should be governed by the rules set forth by the AAA, which is the schools. I think if the schools wanted to play 7, then they should play 7, unless in conflict with conference rules. I would tell the umpire to find a new gig.

BoxNOne · April 05, 2016, 08:35:42 am

I still can't figure out what is officially correct, five innings or seven innings. But personally, I don't think five innings is enough in conference play.

LowerAR · April 05, 2016, 08:47:55 am

I agree, and we have a doubleheader coming up with Parkview, so we should see what 6A does, although those games usually don't take 5.

BICMUSTANG4LIFE · April 05, 2016, 09:18:00 am

I did some asking around. I was told that each classification sets their own limit. So in some cases you may have 7 & others you may have 5. the person I asked said that he thinks the 4A voted for 5inn. & 6A-7A voted for 7inn. not sure about the lower classifications

vhsladyeagles · April 05, 2016, 09:21:28 am

5A West has been playing conference double headers for years and they are always two 7 innings games. Have never had a problem with umpires trying to change it. And yes, it does cut down on travel which makes it nice for everyone.

Hornet guy · April 05, 2016, 08:50:33 pm

4a-3 plays two 7 inning games.

BBRB · April 06, 2016, 07:34:17 am

We were in 5A east for years and most of the conference games we played were over 2 hours away for someone...Some 3.....Our coaches agreed pre-game on the format and there was a lot of variation depending on the distance, day of the week, weather outlook for the evening, significance of the games in the standings, and the likelihood of a close game.....Also the teams schedule on the days surrounding gameday....Heck...They would even change in the middle of the first game depending on how things were going and the weather (cut it off after 5 to get game 2 started)...All by agreement between coaches...Worked great...
Even tho 7 inning games is a lot better test of the competition, Something that weighs heavy but I haven't seen mentioned is that most teams want to use their #1 pitcher for both ends of a conference DH...That is ALWAYS in the coaches mind as they are considering the other factors above.

blueandwhite · April 06, 2016, 12:08:21 pm

Both the NF rules and the AAA handbooks says the same thing about the tie breaker rule, it starts after 7 innings in a single game or after 5 innings in a doubleheader.

So if I guess your schools conference has decided to play 7 inning doubleheaders, it is up to the school admins to notify the umpire assignor of the change.

I think the umpire is correct in this case