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General => Fearless Friday Hall of Fame => Topic started by: on December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm

Poll
Question: True/False  Public Students must attend the HS in their district?
Option 1: True votes: 3
Option 2: False votes: 34
Title: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 02:59:46 pm
The AAA was formed originally to serve as a governing body for public schools in the state of Arkansas.  In Mississippi, for private schools they have the MPSA to do this for private schools.

Solution: Arkansas private schools need to form the APSA.  Problem solved...conflict over.  Let's go back to church and dump the feud.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: kijex13 on August 01, 2006, 04:05:35 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 02:59:46 pm
The AAA was formed originally to serve as a governing body for public schools in the state of Arkansas.  In Mississippi, for private schools they have the MPSA to do this for private schools.

Solution: Arkansas private schools need to form the APSA.  Problem solved...conflict over.  Let's go back to church and dump the feud.

You are correct that the MPSA is a private school league in Mississippi, but there are still private schools in Mississippi that are in with the public schools.  Arkansas already has this, as there are private schools that play in the public school division, and there are some private schools that play in the MPSA with only private schools.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Mike Bonds on August 01, 2006, 04:20:12 pm
I still think that the best solution is to have a graduated multiplier.  I just don't think that a "one size fits all" solution adequately addresses the problem.  I think that PA, Shiloh, and CAC may have some advantages that require a heightened mulitplier.  I don't think that Union Christian, Lutheran, or AB share those advantages.  We need a multiplier that evens things for established programs, but doesn't hinder new programs from starting. 
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 04:22:35 pm
I know...I live in a county with two such schools.  Those two schools could care less what takes place with the AAA.  It doesn't affect them because there is not the private vs public school debate.  Those private schools in Mississippi that are in with public schools chose to be there.  They had that choice.  Create the APSA and schools such as CAC, PA, Arkansas Baptist, etc will also have the alternate choice to leave the AAA if they so choose.  Would it cause the public schools stress?  Yes...the stress in finding the right amount of party favors and celebration supplies because they will no longer have to deal with it again.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Mike Bonds on August 01, 2006, 04:26:05 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 04:22:35 pm
I know...I live in a county with two such schools.  Those two schools could care less what takes place with the AAA.  It doesn't affect them because there is not the private vs public school debate.  Those private schools in Mississippi that are in with public schools chose to be there.  They had that choice.  Create the APSA and schools such as CAC, PA, Arkansas Baptist, etc will also have the alternate choice to leave the AAA if they so choose.  Would it cause the public schools stress?  Yes...the stress in finding the right amount of party favors and celebration supplies because they will no longer have to deal with it again.

But, I think that potentially sets the stage for unlimited private school athletic recruiting, moving public school sports into a second tier in some areas, and I don't think that's in the public interest. 

We can put a man on the moon, but we can't figure out a fair multiplier system in Arkansas?  I don't believe it.  Also, I don't know how many schools are in the MPSA, but I remember there being many more private schools there than in Arkansas (back in the early 90's, when I lived in Mississippi).  I don't know if you'd have enough schools in Arkansas to properly populate an APSA.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 04:29:29 pm
Quote from: Mike Bonds on August 01, 2006, 04:26:05 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 04:22:35 pm
I know...I live in a county with two such schools.  Those two schools could care less what takes place with the AAA.  It doesn't affect them because there is not the private vs public school debate.  Those private schools in Mississippi that are in with public schools chose to be there.  They had that choice.  Create the APSA and schools such as CAC, PA, Arkansas Baptist, etc will also have the alternate choice to leave the AAA if they so choose.  Would it cause the public schools stress?  Yes...the stress in finding the right amount of party favors and celebration supplies because they will no longer have to deal with it again.

But, I think that potentially sets the stage for unlimited private school athletic recruiting, moving public school sports into a second tier in some areas, and I don't think that's in the public interest. 

We can put a man on the moon, but we can't figure out a fair multiplier system in Arkansas?  I don't believe it.  Also, I don't know how many schools are in the MPSA, but I remember there being many more private schools there than in Arkansas (back in the early 90's, when I lived in Mississippi).  I don't know if you'd have enough schools in Arkansas to properly populate an APSA.

You may be right on the number of schools, Mike.  But it IS one solution to eventually stop the fighting, crying and "female dogging" that has been going on about this dog gone multiplier issue.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Guetz on August 02, 2006, 12:22:23 pm
We can put a man on the moon, we can create a calculation system (rather easily) that evaluates EVERY school's activity performance and classifies them at an appropriate level of competition.

SCRAP THE MULTIPLIER SYSTEM.

INSTITUTE A PERFORMANCE BASED SYSTEM!
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: T-Wacker on August 02, 2006, 05:22:07 pm
Quote from: kijex on August 01, 2006, 04:05:35 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 02:59:46 pm
The AAA was formed originally to serve as a governing body for public schools in the state of Arkansas.  In Mississippi, for private schools they have the MPSA to do this for private schools.

Solution: Arkansas private schools need to form the APSA.  Problem solved...conflict over.  Let's go back to church and dump the feud.

You are correct that the MPSA is a private school league in Mississippi, but there are still private schools in Mississippi that are in with the public schools.  Arkansas already has this, as there are private schools that play in the public school division, and there are some private schools that play in the MPSA with only private schools.

Are there not small private schools in the state that don't belong to the AAA? Seems like I remember a friend that used to officiate games where very small private, deeply religious, schools had their own league. that may be what Mississippi has.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 02, 2006, 05:53:46 pm
New solution.  Do away completely with the Multiplier.  Make it a 1:1 ratio.  In doing so, a lot of the private schools would actually end up in the same classification.  PA, AB, CAC, HA, and Shiloh Christian would actually hover around the same level, constituting the creation of a private school only conference in that designated classification.  The logistic end would suck but no more than Texarkana (who for conference games, averages 929 miles per year), Helena-West Helena (906 miles per year) or Mountain Home (a whopping 1,126 miles per year).  PA, CAC, AB, and HA would bring the mileage average for that conference down, no matter how many hundreds of miles Shiloh has to travel for conference.  Oops, but then Gary Holt would complain about how the AAA is messsing with private school parents and the cost of gasoline.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Guetz on August 02, 2006, 06:13:55 pm
Football_Writer:

Please elaborate on a 1:1 ratio classification scheme.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: kijex13 on August 02, 2006, 06:58:37 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 02, 2006, 05:53:46 pm
New solution.  Do away completely with the Multiplier.  Make it a 1:1 ratio.  In doing so, a lot of the private schools would actually end up in the same classification.  PA, AB, CAC, HA, and Shiloh Christian would actually hover around the same level, constituting the creation of a private school only conference in that designated classification. 

I could be misunderstanding your solution, but if you do away with the multiplier those five schools wouldn't be in the same classification.  If we did away with the current multiplier, CAC and PA would be in 4A along with LR Christian.  I believe Shiloh and Arkansas Baptist would both be in 3A, and Harding would drop to 2A.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Miner on August 02, 2006, 08:14:49 pm
Quote from: kijex on August 02, 2006, 06:58:37 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 02, 2006, 05:53:46 pm
New solution.  Do away completely with the Multiplier.  Make it a 1:1 ratio.  In doing so, a lot of the private schools would actually end up in the same classification.  PA, AB, CAC, HA, and Shiloh Christian would actually hover around the same level, constituting the creation of a private school only conference in that designated classification. 

I could be misunderstanding your solution, but if you do away with the multiplier those five schools wouldn't be in the same classification.  If we did away with the current multiplier, CAC and PA would be in 4A along with LR Christian.  I believe Shiloh and Arkansas Baptist would both be in 3A, and Harding would drop to 2A.

That sounds fair to me.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: FF Secretary of Defense Flap_Jack48 on August 02, 2006, 09:50:36 pm
QuoteIf we did away with the current multiplier, CAC and PA would be in 4A along with LR Christian.  I believe Shiloh and Arkansas Baptist would both be in 3A, and Harding would drop to 2A.

I don't know if it gets any better than that.  I wish PA was still in the 4A, they helped strengthen our classification.  Shiloh and Arkansas Baptist are smaller schools, so I agree that they should be in the 3A, and I doubt either of them would have problems with that.  Harding Academy could compete at the 3A level, no doubt in my mind, but if they belong in the 2A, I doubt they'd mind that either.  I have no quams what-so-ever with private schools, and in all honesty, I wish they just played in the class where they belonged.  If the 4A became the new home to all the private schools, then so be it--they're a school, just like any other school.  They have students, teachers, coaches, players and fans--I still don't know what all the fuss is about.  If you can beat them--don't whine about it--practice harder and beat them the following season.  Warren is 2-2 against PA, 0-1 against CAC and 0-1 against Shiloh (all in football), but you don't hear the Jack fans crying for the multiplier.  We know that we're all on a level playing field, and we want another shot at CAC and Shiloh--you know, to even things up a bit.

--Kyle
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: kijex13 on August 02, 2006, 10:12:21 pm
Quote from: Flap_Jack48 on August 02, 2006, 09:50:36 pm
QuoteIf we did away with the current multiplier, CAC and PA would be in 4A along with LR Christian.  I believe Shiloh and Arkansas Baptist would both be in 3A, and Harding would drop to 2A.

I don't know if it gets any better than that.  I wish PA was still in the 4A, they helped strengthen our classification.  Shiloh and Arkansas Baptist are smaller schools, so I agree that they should be in the 3A, and I doubt either of them would have problems with that.  Harding Academy could compete at the 3A level, no doubt in my mind, but if they belong in the 2A, I doubt they'd mind that either.  I have no quams what-so-ever with private schools, and in all honesty, I wish they just played in the class where they belonged.  If the 4A became the new home to all the private schools, then so be it--they're a school, just like any other school.  They have students, teachers, coaches, players and fans--I still don't know what all the fuss is about.  If you can beat them--don't whine about it--practice harder and beat them the following season.  Warren is 2-2 against PA, 0-1 against CAC and 0-1 against Shiloh (all in football), but you don't hear the Jack fans crying for the multiplier.  We know that we're all on a level playing field, and we want another shot at CAC and Shiloh--you know, to even things up a bit.

--Kyle

Great post.  It's always good to hear from a public school supporter that isn't wanting to kick all the private schools out.

I wouldn't mind CAC playing Warren again either, because that would mean we've made it deep into the playoffs.  I wouldn't mind if the rematch didn't happen until the finals though.  The last time we played it was a fun game to watch with a ton of offense for both teams.  I don't think there would be quite as many points put up this year.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: FF Secretary of Defense Flap_Jack48 on August 02, 2006, 10:20:40 pm
I'll second that--the defenses for the two teams are a bit better this season--although, Gates ran through our defense like a hot knife through butter the last time we played.  Thank the Lord he has gradauted--unless you're a Mustang fan  ;)  I remember that game, it was a good one, for a while--ya'll kinda stole the show in the 2nd half though.  It was a sad night in Lumberjack land, I watched some of my best friends play their final high school football game that night--dang you CAC!  Haha.

I just honestly don't see the point in punishing private schools, it doesn't make sense.  Everyone accuses ya'll of recruiting, but there's honestly no proof of it.  Warren get's move-ins like crazy over the summer, simply because kids WANT to play for a winning program--much like a kid living in Little Rock, with some athletic ability, if they had the funds and could afford it, they'd probably choose to play for a successful private school team--I know I would.  Don't punish a school simply because you can't beat them--that's just lazy to be honest.  If you really wanted to get revenge over a school, don't kick it out of your classification--that's just admitting that you don't think you can beat them.  Do what I said in my previous post, work harder and beat them the next time ya'll meet up.  Warren isn't scared of a private school, they're just like a public school.  They wear helments, shoulder pads, and they play on a 100 yard field like the rest of us. 

This multiplier thing just makes me sick, seriously.  This season is hinging on the vote of one judge, and if she votes for Holt, this season could go into a tail-spin for a few weeks, and that's not what anyone wants.  I wish the AAA would just allow the private schools to play in the conferences/classifications where they belong.  Simple.....as.....that.

--Kyle
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: AirWarren on August 03, 2006, 12:15:17 am
I know I jump on private schools all the time, but I have to agree with flappy on this one (Feel Privileged Flap Jerk...HAHA). People need to quit whining about the whole thing about dropping or getting rid of the private schools. Granted I don't agree with certain speculations of how things are done in the private school realm, but the added competition to a conference does nothing but increase the will and desire for another team to beat a top notch private school squad. Not to mention increasing the overall toughness of a conference level as a whole. IMO, Shiloh should be back in our conference rather than dropping and PA should stay where they are because I believe they will be able to compete just fine. If you are gonna screw one private school, by gosh make it tough on all of them. Don't give one a break and make it hard as all get out for another. This whole thing is ridiculous and it is happening in a time that could completely make this season a disaster. If something is going to be done, please wait till next year. It would make more sense. Allow things to play out this season and worry with all this crap next season. Let's play ball.

BTW, this post doesn't justify or support that I am a private school supporter, but people in Lumberjack land want to play the best teams whether private or public school. Obviously the private schools are known to be talented teams, so usually our motto here is..."Bring em on son". In order to be known as the best, we want to beat the best, Private or Public, doesn't really matter. So both sides..Private school haters and Private school lovers...lets shut up and let the season pan out.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 04:32:27 am
There shouldn't be a multiplier but enrollment can't be the determining factor either.  The whole idea of classifications is to have schools play other schools at a similar level of competition and resource.  If a school is consistently playing at a level higher than their competition or resource, they should be able to move up a level.  If a school is consistently failing to compete at their current level, drop them back a level.

Use a performance measure to determine classification.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: mudturtle on August 03, 2006, 06:45:49 am
I saw in the DemGaz this morning that there are 19 bids for charter schools.

No boundaries, exemptions from rules, involved parents, PLUS NO TUITION!!!
And get this, one in Bentonville is named  Aspiring Athlete Academy (AAA).  This is not a joke!!

Wonder what the multiplier for this will be: 3.5?
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: mudturtle on August 03, 2006, 06:54:36 am
I also read the 4A rankings - AB, UC, and Subiaco are all picked LAST in their conferences.  Only CAC is picked to be anything other than a cellar dweller.

It seems so obvious, the same multiplier for every private school will never create the desired effect.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: neafbfan on August 03, 2006, 08:48:05 am
It may seem unfair, but at this point nothing seems fair: Muiltiplier vs. No Multiplier; Size vs resources, whatever those may be;Performance based vs Non-performance based.

I have a friend in Memphis who's son attends a private school and began last year only after he witnessed his daughter graduating from publics and decided the private area would be better education wise, not from the stand ponit of "quality", but from the stand point of student/teacher ratio. Bottom line. It had nothing to do with elitism or poor quality public education,but coming from a small school (AA) himself in Arkansas, he felt it was better for his son to be in a smaller atmosphere than larger atmosphere,whereas they left their daughter in that realm who performed quite well. She landed a scholarship at a private college in Nashville. Private or public is a parents choice. It wouldn't be my choice, but I don't think we should start a civil war over this issue.

Now then, a  possible solution: AAA should place private schools in a classification where athletic pariticpation rates are similar to their own. If your athletic participation rate,cheerleaders included, is 20% or 50%,you will be placed in a conference with similar rates,since apparently that's where your emphasis is and let the budget fall where it may.The school can then apply for lower/higher classification provided that conference approves with AAA final approval.

Finally since these are student-athletes, maybe the school's median ACT scores and college remedian rates could be applied as factors as well,thus incorporating the whole student-athlete experience and not solely on athletics and pseudo-phenomenons such as a "multiplier".

Conclusion: 1) Schools' athletic pariticpation rates 2) School's median ACT score 3) School's college remediation rates to determine classification and conferences. Schools would then be allowed to petition to another conference,travel,rivals,etc.., provided that conference being petitioned to accepts the petition and AAA's final approval.

How more fair,with the definition of fair being reasonable and consistent or consistently reasonable if you will, could you get?

BTW, my friends son sport of choice - futbol or soccer if you will. ;)
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: COWTOY on August 03, 2006, 09:29:48 am
But a real problem with participation rate is school size.  There is NO WAY a school with 2000 students can have a participation rate of 50%.  There aren't that many teams or coaches.  You'd have to start ultimate frisbee teams and count frisbee golf as a varsity sport.

A school with 200 students is going to have a high participation rate.  If you have softball baseball and soccer  that's 30 to 40 already just to field teams for for the most common spring sports.  Of course football takes at least 20 (there will be some overlap) and you need cheerleaders, and maybe POM.  Volleyball is played at most schools.  A lot of schools offer tennis and golf.  That's a few more.

When the AD comes out and says, "We are going to have to cut soccer or baseball unless we get 5 or 6 more players,"  the students that show up and the gym for the first time ARE NOT D1 candidates.  In fact they are often only there as a favor, to give their friends enough people to field team, not because they really want to play.

That sense of community is one of the things that draws many people to private schools.  The chance to participate is a draw too, but the extra participation moves bench warmers to the field and spectators to the bench, it does (NOT - sorry, typo) increase the quality of the talent by 1.75

Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HA_Fan on August 03, 2006, 10:34:56 am
Quote from: COWTOY on August 03, 2006, 09:29:48 am
...the extra participation moves bench warmers to the field and spectators to the bench, it does increase the quality of the talent by 1.75

How on earth does moving bench warmers to the field increase the quality of the talent by 1.75?
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Sensitive on August 03, 2006, 10:39:36 am
Quote from: HA_Fan™ on August 03, 2006, 10:34:56 am
Quote from: COWTOY on August 03, 2006, 09:29:48 am
...the extra participation moves bench warmers to the field and spectators to the bench, it does increase the quality of the talent by 1.75

How on earth does moving bench warmers to the field increase the quality of the talent by 1.75?

Judging from the rest of his post, I believe he meant to say it does NOT increase the quality of the talent.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HA_Fan on August 03, 2006, 10:50:11 am
Quote from: No Longer Sensitive on August 03, 2006, 10:39:36 am
Judging from the rest of his post, I believe he meant to say it does NOT increase the quality of the talent.

I was guessing that too, but you never know on these boards.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: 546post on August 03, 2006, 12:13:47 pm
If no multiplier was in effect...and Shiloh and Ark. Baptist were in the same conference....I somehow think Ark. Baptist would still feel they got screwed after the thumping they took from a team like Shiloh...They just can not compete with teams on the level of Shiloh...or Rison...or Junction City....True they won't have a prayer with the Multiplier but still not one without it...
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: kijex13 on August 03, 2006, 12:52:33 pm
Quote from: 546post on August 03, 2006, 12:13:47 pm
If no multiplier was in effect...and Shiloh and Ark. Baptist were in the same conference....I somehow think Ark. Baptist would still feel they got screwed after the thumping they took from a team like Shiloh...They just can not compete with teams on the level of Shiloh...or Rison...or Junction City....True they won't have a prayer with the Multiplier but still not one without it...

This case is brought by Gary Holt, not Arkansas Baptist.  The case he makes isn't that Arkansas Baptist won't be able to compete.  I will say that if they moved down a class, there would still be some teams that would "thump" them, but there would be fewer that would.  But as I said, that isn't his case.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: EagleDad on August 03, 2006, 12:54:42 pm
Quote from: 546post on August 03, 2006, 12:13:47 pm
If no multiplier was in effect...and Shiloh and Ark. Baptist were in the same conference....I somehow think Ark. Baptist would still feel they got screwed after the thumping they took from a team like Shiloh...They just can not compete with teams on the level of Shiloh...or Rison...or Junction City....True they won't have a prayer with the Multiplier but still not one without it...


AB had no problem with the old multiplier. They would not have a problem playing powerhouses like Rison & Shiloh Christian if that is where their enrollment put them.  While not at the same level as Rison, etc,.. they have competed against some great FB programs for a long time and never complained when beaten. With only 3 trips to the play-offs in 25 years, they know they are not primarily a FB School, even though they are always working to get a good team.

They may not compete with Shiloh, Rison and the likes but the won't complain about competing in the appropriate classification.

The people at AB are not crybabies, it is Gary Holt (who's son happens to attend AB) trying to address what is an injustice by the AAA. Too bad his lawsuit didn't address the schools getting hosed with extensive travel on the conference reorganizations. Kids are STUDENTs first and atheletes second.  

As we all know, Holt is a Lawyer and that is the way he handles problems. Of course, the AAA website used to ask you to contact them. After the 1.75 ruling, they never responded to my inquiries and phone calls asking to discuss the changes. The AAA brought this on themselves when they buried their heads in the sand.



Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: transplant on August 03, 2006, 01:11:15 pm
Quote from: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 04:32:27 am
There shouldn't be a multiplier but enrollment can't be the determining factor either.  The whole idea of classifications is to have schools play other schools at a similar level of competition and resource.  If a school is consistently playing at a level higher than their competition or resource, they should be able to move up a level.  If a school is consistently failing to compete at their current level, drop them back a level.

Use a performance measure to determine classification.

Reward mediocrity!!

Punish excellence!!

Guetz is your real last name Kennedy or is it Biden?
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: mudturtle on August 03, 2006, 01:40:29 pm
Quote from: transplant on August 03, 2006, 01:11:15 pm

Reward mediocrity!!

Definitely better than punishing excellence.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HA_Fan on August 03, 2006, 01:58:52 pm
Quote from: transplant on August 03, 2006, 01:11:15 pm
Punish excellence!!

That's where the AAA set the bar last August.  Guetz is only proposing a different method.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: mudturtle on August 03, 2006, 02:06:46 pm
Face it, we are going to have so many Conferences that winning a championship will not be quite as special.  If we have to, the AAA can 5 or six more conferences so everyone will have a chance.

Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Yukon Cornelius on August 03, 2006, 04:23:11 pm
Quote from: mudturtle on August 03, 2006, 02:06:46 pm
Face it, we are going to have so many Conferences that winning a championship will not be quite as special.  If we have to, the AAA can 5 or six more conferences so everyone will have a chance.



Not true.  You are certainly exaggerating to plead your case.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HA_Fan on August 03, 2006, 04:44:00 pm
Quote from: Mr. Gator on August 03, 2006, 04:23:11 pm
Not true.  You are certainly exaggerating to plead your case.

He's not alone.  When the 7 classification talk started, plenty of people were saying the same thing.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: footballfan81 on August 03, 2006, 04:55:44 pm
"Wonder what the multiplier for this will be: 3.5?"

That's what it will be if the AAA membership votes it.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Yukon Cornelius on August 03, 2006, 04:57:02 pm
Quote from: footballfan81 on August 03, 2006, 04:55:44 pm
"Wonder what the multiplier for this will be: 3.5?"

That's what it will be if the AAA membership votes it.

I think we should just settle it and put all private schools in the highest classification.  Then we would not have to worry about it.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:09:00 pm
It's over...the judge ruled against the injunction filed by the Ar Baptist parent.  Sorry Mr. Holt, your son, and his 10 teammates (11 in all) will just have to play (on the field) outnumbered (whatever) by those 11 people on the other side of the ball
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HA_Fan on August 03, 2006, 05:10:57 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:09:00 pm
Sorry Mr. Holt, your son, and his 10 teammates (11 in all) will just have to play (on the field) outnumbered (whatever) by those 11 people on the other side of the ball

That's the strongest argument for no multiplier at all that I've seen.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: mudturtle on August 03, 2006, 05:23:12 pm
Quote from: Mr. Gator on August 03, 2006, 04:57:02 pm
I think we should just settle it and put all private schools in the highest classification.  Then we would not have to worry about it.

Unfortunately it could happen if the 3A, 4A, and 5A still can't beat the private schools. 

The smaller schools outnumber the big schools and could just vote to move them up and out. 

The larger schools would feel screwed because they end up having 4 games a year which are less challenging than practice games and end early due to mercy rules.  The little schools wouldn't care because the "majority" rules.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 05:25:32 pm
Quote from: transplant on August 03, 2006, 01:11:15 pm
Quote from: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 04:32:27 am
Use a performance measure to determine classification.
Reward mediocrity!!
Punish excellence!!
Guetz is your real last name Kennedy or is it Biden?

If a school's program is so strong that it is consistently dominant in its classification, why is it a punishment to move it up to a higher level of competition.  If we transplant your logic, would you feel like you had achieved something if you won an egg toss competing against 7 year olds?  Do you get off on winning the church cake walk with pre-schoolers as your competitors?

Let's look at a practicality.  Which do you think the D-1 recruiter favors?  A very good athlete in a good program playing against a weak conference and consistently weaker playoff opponents or a very good athlete in a good program playing in a tough conference and even tougher playoff opponents?  The tough conference and classification showcases that student athlete's abilities and talents better. 

Excellence is rewarded with the opportunity to take on greater challenges.

Subiaco is classed 4A.  Unless they change their program, which they historically haven't, they don't stand a chance.  Why would kids who like to play football want to go out for football at a school that consistently finishes at the bottom of its conference, losing virtually every game they play?  Why is it a punishment for that school to drop to a more equivalent level of competition?

(Note also that I included a possibility for deferring a drop in classification, allowing a program a chance or two to pick itself up off the bottom, perhaps by changing coaches or funding or whatever)

And finally.... why is the system that I propose less logical than the current system that moves a school up, sometimes to face competition they aren't able to handle, because their enrollment increased a few students.  Or moves a school down in classification because of an enrollment decline at which point they are able to totally dominate the lower classification (think Shiloh).  Enrollment as a determinate is infinitely less logical than using performance measures that directly addresses the concerns (valid or not) that led to the increase in the multiplier.

Who's getting rewarded and who's getting punished?  Seems the students lose in a multiplier system.  But, Transplant, if your ego wall has to be filled with egg toss ribbons and cake walk plaques, I could see how you would view a move to tougher competition as a punishment. 

That said, you better get ready for the water balloon war, Wal-Mart has 50 balloons for $2.79!  Meanwhile everyone else will get ready to play (and watch) real sports and hopefully the best of competition!  :D


Oh.... almost forgot..... my real last name is closer to McCain, Bush or Hannity but not quite as far as Limbaugh or Savage.  Boortz is pretty close.  Has a "Z" in it.  LOL
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:58:30 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan? on August 03, 2006, 05:10:57 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:09:00 pm
Sorry Mr. Holt, your son, and his 10 teammates (11 in all) will just have to play (on the field) outnumbered (whatever) by those 11 people on the other side of the ball

That's the strongest argument for no multiplier at all that I've seen.

Odd that if there was no multiplier, the Class AA would be a feasting fround for Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Bleachermom on August 03, 2006, 06:12:41 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:58:30 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan? on August 03, 2006, 05:10:57 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:09:00 pm
Sorry Mr. Holt, your son, and his 10 teammates (11 in all) will just have to play (on the field) outnumbered (whatever) by those 11 people on the other side of the ball

That's the strongest argument for no multiplier at all that I've seen.

Odd that if there was no multiplier, the Class AA would be a feasting fround for Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian

If you consider a "feasting ground" one championship in 25 years, you have very low standards.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 06:14:56 pm
Quote from: Bleachermom on August 03, 2006, 06:12:41 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:58:30 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan? on August 03, 2006, 05:10:57 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 05:09:00 pm
Sorry Mr. Holt, your son, and his 10 teammates (11 in all) will just have to play (on the field) outnumbered (whatever) by those 11 people on the other side of the ball

That's the strongest argument for no multiplier at all that I've seen.

Odd that if there was no multiplier, the Class AA would be a feasting fround for Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian

If you consider a "feasting ground" one championship in 25 years, you have very low standards.

So...you're saying between Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian, there has been only ONE high school football championship?  Wrong.  SC has many as does HA
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: neafbfan on August 03, 2006, 06:25:55 pm
OK OK OK! It's over, for now. So let's back to getting ready for the season as is. TY JUdge McGowan. I'm still tickled at the irony of a female judge deciding the fate of Arkansas HS football. LOL.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: warriorhipster on August 03, 2006, 06:51:10 pm
"consistently finishes at the bottom of its conference, losing virtually every game they play?"

Why? The game is fun and the memories are wonderful. Think about it...can you recall the record of every team you ever played on? No? I agree that the multiplier is really a hurtful system. I do not understand why the top teams do not complain. Evening up the teams is the right thing to do. The real solution is to have a board sit and review the records and potential of every team in a given area and then set the conferences every year, behind closed doors. Small schools would play small schools and larger ones would play larger ones and if a large school was getting ripped or no one came out they could go to a lower division. If a program, regardless of size began to dominate year after year set them up as a showcase team and let them play around the state and the region. Adults could do this system and make it work...adult children could not. 

As it stands, some teams are just going to get rolled year after year. The Springdales will be the Springdales....It seems those in power wish it that way.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HA_Fan on August 03, 2006, 10:01:00 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 03, 2006, 06:14:56 pm
So...you're saying between Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian, there has been only ONE high school football championship?  Wrong.  SC has many as does HA

I think she was talking about HA, who does have 1 in the last 20 or 25 years.  Shiloh has 2 or 3.

3 or 4 in 25 years is far from making AA a "feasting ground".  Rison and Barton combined have 3 times that number.  Did that concern you as much?
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: kijex13 on August 03, 2006, 10:15:06 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan™ on August 03, 2006, 04:44:00 pm
Quote from: Mr. Gator on August 03, 2006, 04:23:11 pm
Not true.  You are certainly exaggerating to plead your case.

He's not alone.  When the 7 classification talk started, plenty of people were saying the same thing.

While I don't like the 1.75 multiplier, I think the 7 classification is much more ridiculous.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: kijex13 on August 03, 2006, 10:16:13 pm
Quote from: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 05:25:32 pm
Quote from: transplant on August 03, 2006, 01:11:15 pm
Quote from: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 04:32:27 am
Use a performance measure to determine classification.
Reward mediocrity!!
Punish excellence!!
Guetz is your real last name Kennedy or is it Biden?

If a school's program is so strong that it is consistently dominant in its classification, why is it a punishment to move it up to a higher level of competition.  If we transplant your logic, would you feel like you had achieved something if you won an egg toss competing against 7 year olds?  Do you get off on winning the church cake walk with pre-schoolers as your competitors?

You had me until the cake walk analogy.  If I get a cake for free, I don't care who I beat, I'm happy.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Super Scrapper on August 04, 2006, 12:33:30 pm
Quote from: kijex on August 03, 2006, 10:16:13 pm
Quote from: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 05:25:32 pm
Quote from: transplant on August 03, 2006, 01:11:15 pm
Quote from: Guetz on August 03, 2006, 04:32:27 am
Use a performance measure to determine classification.
Reward mediocrity!!
Punish excellence!!
Guetz is your real last name Kennedy or is it Biden?

If a school's program is so strong that it is consistently dominant in its classification, why is it a punishment to move it up to a higher level of competition.  If we transplant your logic, would you feel like you had achieved something if you won an egg toss competing against 7 year olds?  Do you get off on winning the church cake walk with pre-schoolers as your competitors?

You had me until the cake walk analogy.  If I get a cake for free, I don't care who I beat, I'm happy.

A wolf in sheep's clothing, don't you feel the same about football?  lol....SS

Go Scrappers
  ::)
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: alex on August 21, 2006, 04:12:14 pm
you do not need all these fancy multipliers. just have 2 divisions d-1 for public and d-2 for the rest and let these private, charter recruting schools hash it out.that what tenn did and works very well.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Sensitive on August 21, 2006, 04:20:54 pm
Quote from: alex on August 21, 2006, 04:12:14 pm
you do not need all these fancy multipliers. just have 2 divisions d-1 for public and d-2 for the rest and let these private, charter recruting schools hash it out.that what tenn did and works very well.

You do not have a clue what you are talking about.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: panther_pride on August 21, 2006, 09:11:08 pm
Quote from: alex on August 21, 2006, 04:12:14 pm
you do not need all these fancy multipliers. just have 2 divisions d-1 for public and d-2 for the rest and let these private, charter recruting schools hash it out.that what tenn did and works very well.
Wow. 
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: oldbalddude on August 26, 2006, 04:22:27 pm
My question is this; When will the multiplier stop? PA, CAC, LRC, Shiloh, no matter what classification you put them in, they are going to be competitive, it's a reflection of the programs at each school. Face it, they all have strong athletic programs! So now they're in 4A - 5A, and suppose they begin to win some more titles, and they will. Will the answer be to increase the multiplier to 2.0, and then maybe 2.5, and then who knows! All that happens when you take a good competitive program and force it to live in a more competitive environment is that it just gets better! These programs are as good as they are because they have a "we're as good as anybody" attitude, and it shows in the way the Coaches and players practice and play. I for one feel like imposing the multiplier is wrong, but in doing so, those responsible are in essence helping to create the monster by giving it more to work for. Believe me when I say that the private "monster" will take the 1.75 challenge head on, and just get bigger and stronger!
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Rabhog on August 26, 2006, 06:33:16 pm
Quote from: Mike Bonds on August 01, 2006, 04:26:05 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 04:22:35 pm
I know...I live in a county with two such schools.  Those two schools could care less what takes place with the AAA.  It doesn't affect them because there is not the private vs public school debate.  Those private schools in Mississippi that are in with public schools chose to be there.  They had that choice.  Create the APSA and schools such as CAC, PA, Arkansas Baptist, etc will also have the alternate choice to leave the AAA if they so choose.  Would it cause the public schools stress?  Yes...the stress in finding the right amount of party favors and celebration supplies because they will no longer have to deal with it again.

But, I think that potentially sets the stage for unlimited private school athletic recruiting, moving public school sports into a second tier in some areas, and I don't think that's in the public interest. 

We can put a man on the moon, but we can't figure out a fair multiplier system in Arkansas?  I don't believe it.  Also, I don't know how many schools are in the MPSA, but I remember there being many more private schools there than in Arkansas (back in the early 90's, when I lived in Mississippi).  I don't know if you'd have enough schools in Arkansas to properly populate an APSA.
The reason we can't figure out a fair multiplier system, is the multiplier is not fair. Use the same rules for everyone, aline conferences where schools in each classification are as close as possible and lets play football, basketball, baseball etc.
My personal opinion is NW Ark did not want to play Central Ark in the larger classifications, so 7A and the  multiplier were added  and now the smaller classes are fighting over the multiplier and not addressing the added travel.
As a note I am 100% public school(old 6AAA).
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: football_writer on August 28, 2006, 02:05:39 pm
Quote from: Rabhog on August 26, 2006, 06:33:16 pm
Quote from: Mike Bonds on August 01, 2006, 04:26:05 pm
Quote from: football_writer on August 01, 2006, 04:22:35 pm
I know...I live in a county with two such schools.  Those two schools could care less what takes place with the AAA.  It doesn't affect them because there is not the private vs public school debate.  Those private schools in Mississippi that are in with public schools chose to be there.  They had that choice.  Create the APSA and schools such as CAC, PA, Arkansas Baptist, etc will also have the alternate choice to leave the AAA if they so choose.  Would it cause the public schools stress?  Yes...the stress in finding the right amount of party favors and celebration supplies because they will no longer have to deal with it again.

But, I think that potentially sets the stage for unlimited private school athletic recruiting, moving public school sports into a second tier in some areas, and I don't think that's in the public interest. 

We can put a man on the moon, but we can't figure out a fair multiplier system in Arkansas?  I don't believe it.  Also, I don't know how many schools are in the MPSA, but I remember there being many more private schools there than in Arkansas (back in the early 90's, when I lived in Mississippi).  I don't know if you'd have enough schools in Arkansas to properly populate an APSA.
The reason we can't figure out a fair multiplier system, is the multiplier is not fair. Use the same rules for everyone, aline conferences where schools in each classification are as close as possible and lets play football, basketball, baseball etc.
My personal opinion is NW Ark did not want to play Central Ark in the larger classifications, so 7A and the  multiplier were added  and now the smaller classes are fighting over the multiplier and not addressing the added travel.
As a note I am 100% public school(old 6AAA).

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion...but here's the rub...both the NW Ark schools and the Central Ark schools are in the 7–A (the largest one) so, therefore they will play each other.  In MY personal opinion the separation of the now 7–A and the 6–A was political andd financial.  The richer and more politically powerful schools are in the 7–A while the ones in the delta and those east of LR are in the 6–A
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: mudturtle on August 28, 2006, 02:18:30 pm
Quote from: Rabhog on August 26, 2006, 06:33:16 pm
My personal opinion is NW Ark did not want to play Central Ark in the larger classifications, so 7A and the  multiplier were added  and now the smaller classes are fighting over the multiplier and not addressing the added travel.
As a note I am 100% public school(old 6AAA).

I think the added classifications are a waste and agree 100% that they add tons of unneeded travel.

We should go back to 3 classes, (or 4 at most).  Play all games against people who go to school within a hour of you until you get to play-offs.

If someone dominates AA or A ball(public or private), then move them up for a cycle.  If someone is "0 fer" 3 years in a row, let them play down for a cycle.

Let the NWA schools have a conference, same for central Arkansas, et.  Put enough schools in each class for have geographically organized conferences.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Coltfan2005 on August 28, 2006, 03:03:41 pm
The problem with these posts and the solutions you put forth can be summed up very easily.

They make too much sense.
You'll confuse the guys at AAA.
Title: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: GLion Alum on April 25, 2009, 08:18:15 am
Today's front page of the NWA edition of the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette has a story about Berryville and Harrison proposing that the private schools have their own playoffs. 

Shiloh head football coach Josh Floyd is quoted re his team's 65-0 win over Berryville.  I couldn't help but think back to last fall when Shiloh played the 1-4A's second-place finisher, Gravette.  The Saints scored just before halftime to take a 21-14 lead into the locker room but wore down Gravette in the second half with their depth on the line.  With less than two minutes left in the game Shiloh, still with their starting backfield in the game, drove the length of the field to get a mercy-rule win. 

At the time my thought, sitting in the stands, was that Shiloh was out to mercy-rule every 1-4A team in their first year in the league.  I wondered to myself how many times that would be pointed out by Shiloh supporters talking to the youngsters, such as West Fork's Frazier, who were playing for other 4A schools in Northwest Arkansas and who have hopes for a D-1 scholarship.

I have several friends whose children attend Shiloh and know other Shiloh supporters.  They are good people, and I think they have good intentions.  I am not involved in any way with the public schools or their coaches, but I do think it's not fair to the coaches of the 4A public schools to have to compete with programs like Shiloh's.  The way things are right now, it's going to get a lot worse if something isn't changed--Shiloh is building a powerhouse!  If I were running things, and obviously I'm not ;D, I'd just move Shiloh to 7A, but there still would be the problem of the best athletes in the area wanting to play for a high-profile program.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: cointoss on April 25, 2009, 10:02:43 am
The Harrison and Berryville coaches sound like a couple of losers. They can't win on the field so let's try and pound the private schools one more time. The next thing the jokes for coaches at Harrison and Berryville will want is to have every private school spot each public school 14 points to start each game? Grow up Harrison and Berryville, a lot of times it just comes down to better coaching....
Title: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 10:14:09 am
Only 12 of the 21 private schools field football teams, yet almost single handedly Shiloh has spawned a movement to ban private schools from high school playoffs through consistent flaunting their skills and needless embarrassing their opponents.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 10:22:18 am
The end result is that Abundant Life, PB St Joe, Subiaco, Lutheran,  Sacred Heart, Episcopal, Trinity Christian are all going to be painted with the same roller as Shiloh.

If we canned the enrollment  basis for conferences and went to a results based system, Shiloh would be climbing up and be about a 7 - 3 team, whether in 5A, 6A, 7A, or DII
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: True Believer on April 25, 2009, 10:22:42 am
And another example (in my opinion)  of why people also think if you say you are a Christian that you are a hypocrite.  I agree "Thanks Shiloh".   What happened to good sportsmanship?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: GLion Alum on April 25, 2009, 10:43:50 am
I don't know any of the Berryville or Harrison coaches personally, but I have observed Arkansas high school football for a long time, and I know that Tommy Tice of Harrison is not a loser and likely adds some credibility to this movement.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: OldScrap on April 25, 2009, 11:24:17 am
Quote from: GLion Alum on April 25, 2009, 10:43:50 am
I don't know any of the Berryville or Harrison coaches personally, but I have observed Arkansas high school football for a long time, and I know that Tommy Tice of Harrison is not a loser and likely adds some credibility to this movement.

Some people, they stamp a person a loser if they do not agree with them, that is probably the case, its the only thing they know to do when someone disagrees with them, and of course being as that person disagrees with them, they want to attack that persons character.

Of course the same problem has been going on down in Shreveport for quite sometime, its not just Arkansas sports having this problem. I read some message boards from that area, it seems their private schools react just like the ones in Arkansas do, attack the character of those who disagree with them.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Ty on April 25, 2009, 11:41:35 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 10:14:09 am
Only 12 of the 21 private schools field football teams, yet almost single handedly Shiloh has spawned a movement to ban private schools from high school playoffs through consistent flaunting their skills and needless embarrassing their opponents.
And only a few have had continued success, primarily Shiloh, CAC, and Pulaski Academy.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 25, 2009, 12:04:23 pm
Here's a link to the article:

CLICK HERE (http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=2095597628)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 12:06:54 pm
Basically it is one private school in each state, but heck people with high school boys just happen to move into Nashville, or Greenwood, Barton or Bauxite about the time football starts.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: busterdouglas on April 25, 2009, 12:47:32 pm
Problem thoses losers in Harrison and Berryville have is they have to coach the kids that live in their district vs. All star traveling teams. Love to hear christian school backers use words like loser and humiliate people they play. What they are speaks so loudly, we can't hear what they say they are
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 03:07:33 pm


Most of the private schools exist to fill a need.  For some it's quality of education, for others to attend schools with those who espouse certain values, maybe for some a desire for similar skin color.  I am very sure that NONE were established for athletics.

Yes, private schools can draw from a large area.  Some Central Arkansas schools attract students from Hot Springs, Cabot, Heber Springs, Pine Bluff, El Dorado, Sheridan, England, Stuttgart and Monticello. Most kids who travel that far to school pay tuition to attend private schools, but in fact, a handful buy houses in the LR district and go to free public school.  Virtually none transfer for athletics. To a rule, every single studenty that I know of that transferred has done so for academic reasons.  Many private schools have strict admission standards and no exceptions are made for unprepared students, even if they run a 4.2

Do the transfers participate in athletics?  Of course!  Many of these are small schools with comprehensive extracurricular activities.  Participation is expected and the opportunity to participate in multiple activities is one of the strengths of theses smaller schools.

Scholarships?  Absolutely NONE that I know of!  NONE!

Financial aid?  Sure.  But it is administered through a non-school based third party who isn't aware of the athletic status of the student.  In general, I don't think financial aid can exceed 1/3 of the cost of tuition In addition, tuition may NOT be paid by a non family member. 
Endowments?  Great things!  A big enough endowment can allow a school to charge a tuition of $10,000 when they actually spend $15,000 on each student.  Find a school with a large endowment and you can get a huge bargain.

I actually think the inability to offer more extensive financial aid is a shame.  Often a child is identified who desires to attend a school, clearly could benefit, has a family situation that renders paying tuition impossible and so has to be turned away, when in fact, funds could be available.  In a sense, the rules which were designed to prevent private schools from recruiting athletes also prevent the private schools from reaching out to students coming from lesser financial backgrounds, unless they opt out of AAA.

Should private schools have athletics?  Absolutely.  If it were up to me, I'd require every student to participate in some sport.  Most private schools offer an athletic pallet far beyond what a similarly sized public school could support, but that also stretches talent thin.  A high school of 200 students is hard pressed to field a football team, a golf team, a tennis team and a cross country team.

Are all of these students great athletes?  Hardly but most have had some advantages.  They come from households that can afford $5,000.  They have likely played club soccer, peewee football, or baseball.  They have been carted to tournaments and clinics since they were 4.  They have transportation to stay after school and practice.

The coaches are good, the kids are motivated and the parents and booster clubs are supportive, but  gee, can't many public schools can say the same?  Except those schools REALLY have one advantage,  They don't have to charge $5000.

The problem is tradition.  Shiloh has a tradition of winning.  That attracts certain athletes, but you cannot tell me that Nashville, Greenwood, Alma, Barton etc have all been examples of schools that people "find some way" to attend, whether it involves transferring guardianship, "moving", M to M transfer, or choice.  It happens, It happens, It happens.  It is going to happen and in public school you can do it for $5000 to $10000 less.

Enrollment based classification is not a help.  Small schools with great tradition could often beat larger apathetic schools.  Teams who have gone 30 – 0 for the last three seasons are no better matched that the ones who are 0 – 30.   They each need to find appropriate competition.  The Travelers don't play the Yankees.  Performance based classifications alone would take care of any school, public or private, who tilted the table in their favor.

The problem with Shiloh is lack of class.  It was that way ten years ago and hasn't changed.  A desire to not just go 10 – 0 is mixed with a pathetic need to nearly double mercy rule their opponents.  "We're so could there is nothing we can do" is obscene.  Don't tell me when Josh Floyd plays basketball against the 4 year old next door neighbor he routinely wins 100 – 0.  Perhaps he does.

I think it is a shame that Shiloh's desire for glory, (is that mentioned in the Beatitudes) turns the envious eye of the whole state on the private schools.  And while football and basketball are the main thrusts, rule changes will affect tennis, choir, band, cheerleading, Quiz bowl, bowling, weight lifting and chess.  And I don't think anyone cares much about Subiaco's bowling recruits.  Applying these rules to all activities will hurt students, young men and women.

I don't think anyone cares that Catholic plays in 7A.  They are a good school which can offer cheap tuition because of subsidies.  They win some titles, they finish in the bottom half sometimes.  They play by the rules and offer good competition.  Matching them up with Conway St. Joe and Abdundant Life just doesn't make sense.  Lutheran went from being placed in 4A football to not having enough to field a team in about 2 years.  This year they could repeat as State Champs in soccer.  Next year they might not open.  Does anyone think those kids signed up at Lutheran for athletics.  Episcopal "caught lightening in a bottle" one year and went deep into the football playoffs.  Since then they haven't broken .500.  Does anyone transfer there for football, for basketball, for wrestling, for soccer? I always thought that you only got sent to Subiaco if you were a juvenile delinquent.  That isn't much an advertisement for recruiting.  The problem is NOT all private schools.  Private schools have some advantages and the "one classification" bump takes care of most of them. 

If there is a problem, the solution ought to address that problem, not randomly punish kids who have never and will never present a problem
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on April 25, 2009, 05:28:54 pm
Why not punish one specific coach/sport instead of every private school in the state? There are coaches at ___________________ that play by the rules, don't run up the score, but get grouped in this mess because they work at _________. It's not fair to let Coach _____________ ruin relationships between all public/private schools. I'd guess every school in the state hates _________ & Coach __________ right now. Find a way to punish the coach and sport, not the entire state. I'd propose eliminating that sport for a year; see how many of those guys are there for the real religion.

*All names were removed to protect the guilty.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: The Reality is back... on April 25, 2009, 08:42:28 pm
Quote from: Ty on April 25, 2009, 11:41:35 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 10:14:09 am
Only 12 of the 21 private schools field football teams, yet almost single handedly Shiloh has spawned a movement to ban private schools from high school playoffs through consistent flaunting their skills and needless embarrassing their opponents.
And only a few have had continued success, primarily Shiloh, CAC, and Pulaski Academy.

Look at their location. That's the key. And their Alumni. Money + Kids who can legally transfer=bam bam.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Uncle Ivan on April 25, 2009, 08:48:12 pm
Kick them all out of the AAA.  If they die, then they die.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: SMC on April 25, 2009, 09:13:11 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogf4kA7TM18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogf4kA7TM18)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: PGTIGERS09 on April 25, 2009, 09:53:43 pm
I know that i will get banned for this but the truth is Shiloh runs up the score.  Period.  They DO.  Every game was a mercy rule in conf.  but the playoff game vs. Clarksville sealed the deal.  this wasn't Berryville they were tearing up this was a playoff team and not in the first round.  cause Shiloh doesn't play first round games.  It was Classless, as far from Christian as you can get they embarrassed a school, town and a group of kids so that they could feel good about themselves i think it was 84-12.  I didn't look it up so someone can help me with the Score.  I will be banned I'm sure but really think about 84 points on a playoff team in the second round.  If Jesus was running this Christian school would he hang 84 on clarksville and humiliate them.  Call me a loser or whatever makes you feel good about yourself but would  any of you like to get beat like that.  PLEASE. waiting for the comments about Clarksville should get better or its not Shiloh's fault that they cant stop them.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: GLion Alum on April 26, 2009, 02:26:18 am
Quote from: PGTIGERS09 on April 25, 2009, 09:53:43 pm
I know that i will get banned for this but the truth is Shiloh runs up the score.  Period.  They DO.  Every game was a mercy rule in conf.  but the playoff game vs. Clarksville sealed the deal.  this wasn't Berryville they were tearing up this was a playoff team and not in the first round.  cause Shiloh doesn't play first round games.  It was Classless, as far from Christian as you can get they embarrassed a school, town and a group of kids so that they could feel good about themselves i think it was 84-12.  I didn't look it up so someone can help me with the Score.  I will be banned I'm sure but really think about 84 points on a playoff team in the second round.  If Jesus was running this Christian school would he hang 84 on clarksville and humiliate them.  Call me a loser or whatever makes you feel good about yourself but would  any of you like to get beat like that.  PLEASE. waiting for the comments about Clarksville should get better or its not Shiloh's fault that they cant stop them.

Guess whose baseball team Shiloh gets to face in the second round of the 4A-North Regionals?  It'll be interesting to watch.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: cointoss on April 26, 2009, 08:52:35 am
Shiloh was apparently so embarrassed by Evangel at the start of the season and by Fayetteville in their scrimmage that I guess they wanted to take it out on everyone else.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: wee willy on April 26, 2009, 03:24:15 pm
Bottom Line- Kick them out , they only represent a small percentage of football playing schools. If they dont like it they can send their kids back to a public school......problem solved. Private schools will always have an advantage and no multiplier can make it fair so lets just send them packing. I've talked to alot of administrators and when this gets voted on by the schools its audios private schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 26, 2009, 03:37:01 pm
Quote from: wee willy on April 26, 2009, 03:24:15 pm
. I've talked to alot of administrators and when this gets voted on by the schools its audios private schools.

I don't know.  You might want to keep the English and Spanish sections.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: oldguy_21 on April 26, 2009, 04:03:44 pm
I think it is likely that this will pass.  You know it will get a yes vote at one of those two district meetings.  That puts it to the 300 or so Sups/principals at the annual meeting.  How many of those reps will be from public and how many from private?  How many of those public reps dislike the private schools for one reason or another? Consider those questions and you would have to think it very likely that publics and privates will be playing seperate postseasons soon.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 26, 2009, 04:16:17 pm
I would think Berryville's biggest problem is not Shiloh, but what will happen if Pea Ridge and Gravette ever get moved to another conference.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 26, 2009, 04:17:44 pm
Quote from: oldguy_21 on April 26, 2009, 04:03:44 pm
I think it is likely that this will pass.  You know it will get a yes vote at one of those two district meetings.  That puts it to the 300 or so Sups/principals at the annual meeting.  How many of those reps will be from public and how many from private?  How many of those public reps dislike the private schools for one reason or another? Consider those questions and you would have to think it very likely that publics and privates will be playing seperate postseasons soon.

You think the private schools will lobby for a vote multiplier when this comes to a vote ???  :-\
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 26, 2009, 04:27:45 pm
Quote from: PGTIGERS09 on April 25, 2009, 09:53:43 pm
I know that i will get banned for this but the truth is Shiloh runs up the score.  Period.  They DO.  Every game was a mercy rule in conf.  but the playoff game vs. Clarksville sealed the deal.  this wasn't Berryville they were tearing up this was a playoff team and not in the first round.  cause Shiloh doesn't play first round games.  It was Classless, as far from Christian as you can get they embarrassed a school, town and a group of kids so that they could feel good about themselves i think it was 84-12.  I didn't look it up so someone can help me with the Score.  I will be banned I'm sure but really think about 84 points on a playoff team in the second round.  If Jesus was running this Christian school would he hang 84 on clarksville and humiliate them.  Call me a loser or whatever makes you feel good about yourself but would  any of you like to get beat like that.  PLEASE. waiting for the comments about Clarksville should get better or its not Shiloh's fault that they cant stop them.

Quote from: cointoss on April 26, 2009, 08:52:35 amShiloh was apparently so embarrassed by Evangel at the start of the season and by Fayetteville in their scrimmage that I guess they wanted to take it out on everyone else.

CLICK HERE (http://ar.prepcountry.com/?t=5&w=9&wy=2009&s=1&sc=9252)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 26, 2009, 04:58:57 pm
Or here: 

http://www.fearlessfriday.com/school/Shiloh%20Christian.html

I don't think many people know all the features on this website.  This is a good time to see one of them.  If you wish to know other teams, simply click on the schools tab at the top of the page.  It's along side the members, search, help and other tabs.

QF
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: just2good19 on April 27, 2009, 10:27:13 am
Quote from: PGTIGERS09 on April 25, 2009, 09:53:43 pm
I know that i will get banned for this but the truth is Shiloh runs up the score.  Period.  They DO.  Every game was a mercy rule in conf.  but the playoff game vs. Clarksville sealed the deal.  this wasn't Berryville they were tearing up this was a playoff team and not in the first round.  cause Shiloh doesn't play first round games.  It was Classless, as far from Christian as you can get they embarrassed a school, town and a group of kids so that they could feel good about themselves i think it was 84-12.  I didn't look it up so someone can help me with the Score.  I will be banned I'm sure but really think about 84 points on a playoff team in the second round.  If Jesus was running this Christian school would he hang 84 on clarksville and humiliate them.  Call me a loser or whatever makes you feel good about yourself but would  any of you like to get beat like that.  PLEASE. waiting for the comments about Clarksville should get better or its not Shiloh's fault that they cant stop them.
I was part of the Clarksville team that played Shiloh, the score was 84-14, but that is besides the point.
You can not blame players for doing what their coaches say. That would be like punishing a soilder for doing something his comander told him. As a football player you do what you are told or you don't play. My team got beat by 70 but i don't think it would be fair to punish Shiloh and not allow them to play. Punish the coaches, move them up to 6a or 7a, but do not take it out on the players.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: LakeRat on April 27, 2009, 11:50:55 am
I don't believe anyone needs to be punished... Clearly there's a pervasive issue from a competative perspective and far beyond just a few isolated incidents.

This isn't a trivial matter. The actions by the public schools obviously warrant a look into the current classifications by the AAA. Although their options may be limited and diffcult to apply widely and fairly.

It would have been much less of an issue of the "haves/have not's" if the Shiloh coaching staff had excersized a higher standard of sportsmanship in running up scores in many situations. That element appears to have compounded the problem significantly. One can only hope they don't just blow this off as noise...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 27, 2009, 12:18:30 pm
Quote from: just2good19 on April 27, 2009, 10:27:13 am
Quote from: PGTIGERS09 on April 25, 2009, 09:53:43 pm
I know that i will get banned for this but the truth is Shiloh runs up the score.  Period.  They DO.  Every game was a mercy rule in conf.  but the playoff game vs. Clarksville sealed the deal.  this wasn't Berryville they were tearing up this was a playoff team and not in the first round.  cause Shiloh doesn't play first round games.  It was Classless, as far from Christian as you can get they embarrassed a school, town and a group of kids so that they could feel good about themselves i think it was 84-12.  I didn't look it up so someone can help me with the Score.  I will be banned I'm sure but really think about 84 points on a playoff team in the second round.  If Jesus was running this Christian school would he hang 84 on clarksville and humiliate them.  Call me a loser or whatever makes you feel good about yourself but would  any of you like to get beat like that.  PLEASE. waiting for the comments about Clarksville should get better or its not Shiloh's fault that they cant stop them.
I was part of the Clarksville team that played Shiloh, the score was 84-14, but that is besides the point.
You can not blame players for doing what their coaches say. That would be like punishing a soilder for doing something his comander told him. As a football player you do what you are told or you don't play. My team got beat by 70 but i don't think it would be fair to punish Shiloh and not allow them to play. Punish the coaches, move them up to 6a or 7a, but do not take it out on the players.

Impressed that you make such a comment.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: sportime on April 27, 2009, 01:29:14 pm
When you have someone with such great character and integrity as Tommy Tice backing a proposal like this, you can bet it will pass.  Sounds like from the paper it would be set into motion next school year.  It is long overdue.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 27, 2009, 01:35:58 pm
I've been (clears throat again) strongly hinting at this since the middle of last summer.

There is still fallout from last years roster shifts despite what many thought at that time.  To remind, there was an official sanction put in place that noted one irregularity.

People we're hacked then, they have been before and they still are now.  Whether you think it's right, wrong or in between the moment in time is coming.  The movement has legs.

Now we'll see if it's sooner rather than later.  The blame is going to be placed at one door step too.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 27, 2009, 02:16:42 pm
It's time has come. This movement is gaining momentum,and something will change soon! If not this year then next! Let them play each other for a while.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 27, 2009, 04:19:28 pm
I can certainly see the problem as all private schools are the same.
Subiaco, Arkansas Baptist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Conway Christian, LRCA, and LR Catholic have a combined 3 year record of about 41 - 133

Less than 1/2 dozen winning seasons between the group of them.


Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 28, 2009, 07:37:05 am
John your point is well taken, we all know which private school is causing the problem. Unfortunatly a wide net must be cast in order to catch the big fish and the little fish are going to get caught up in it as well. I have been of the opinion that private school should not be allowed to compete for the same titles as public for some time. All efforts by AAA to "even" the playing field has failed. Enrollment size as a means to determine classification will not work for private schools for reasons that have been hashed out on these pages for years. The multiplier system partially worked but wasn't right in for every situation. The only thing left to try is seperation. It will be interesting to see how this develops over the next few months.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 07:52:19 am
You are right that none of AAA efforts have leveled the field,  one end is tilted left and the other right.

A success based system has not been tried.  Use the enrollment numbers to set up 4 Classes.  At the end of the first cycle, let the top four in one group exchange spots with bottom four in the upper group.

A team going 12-0 four years in a row is going to get increasinly harder competition.  Teams going 0 - 10 get to step down.

(It isn't like a  0 - 10 teams is suddenly going 9 - 1, but at least they might be 4 - 6 one year.

As for the big net, it would catch choir, cheerleading, band, chess, tennis, cross country, track, and Quiz Bowl.  I don't think people have a problem with those.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 28, 2009, 08:11:28 am
A success based system may work,details would be tricky to work out. I would keep it very simple.Put a private school in a classification,if they blow everyone away and win a state title,move them up in that sport.
If they top out and are still winning,then so be it. Here's what really happened, AAA took some private schools that were very successful in one classification,and moved them down to play against weaker competition.
Thats why folks are in an uproar, that and SC putting the double mercy rule on folks in the playoffs. Classless!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: fourpeat on April 28, 2009, 08:35:48 am
I couldn't care less about what Shiloh did this year.  I've been one of the "whiners" for years about private schools not needing to be in the playoffs with public schools.  I "whined" about it 14 years ago when Shiloh started putting "district-line-bounded" public schools  out of the playoffs, ending their seasons.  CAC, PA and HA continued with the onslaught in the early 2000's.  I was labeled a "whiner" then, and made predictions about what the trend was going to be; privates would gradually take over high school football in Arkansas unless the AAA did something about it.  Now, hopefully, they will follow through with this action.  Junction City, Greenwood, Nashville, Dollarway, Prescott, West Helena and a few others have all been "robbed" of state championships by private school All-Star teams.  Now is the time to take action.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 08:41:17 am
Yeah, that could work.
Catholic would stay put, as would Subiaco, ECS, Lutheran, AB.

LRCA would likely stay, depending on how Dyer boosted them.

Shiloh and PA would move up.
Not to sure about CAC
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 28, 2009, 08:44:17 am
It's not about 'oh we are a private school so everyone is intimidated by us'. It's more about being tired of the lack of sportsmanship shown in the blowout games when Shiloh is up 62-7 and still has eleven starters playing both sides of the ball while the losing team has third string JV on the field. It's been this way as long as I can remember. They have talent. They lack a Christian attitude and sportsmanship. *Disclaimer: I am speaking of the football teams I have watched. We never had trouble with them in bball. I am not trying to stereotype the SCHS students.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 08:51:12 am
Quote from: bobcat on April 28, 2009, 08:44:17 am
It's not about 'oh we are a private school so everyone is intimidated by us'. It's more about being tired of the lack of sportsmanship shown in the blowout games when Shiloh is up 62-7 and still has eleven starters playing both sides of the ball while the losing team has third string JV on the field. It's been this way as long as I can remember. They have talent. They lack a Christian attitude and sportsmanship. *Disclaimer: I am speaking of the football teams I have watched. We never had trouble with them in bball. I am not trying to stereotype the SCHS students.

I agree completely.  Shiloh should be "shunned"!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 28, 2009, 09:02:14 am
Another disclaimer: I had nothing to do with this proposal. I am from Gentry. If any team was gonna offer one up bc of losing football games, you would think it would be them. LOL.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 04:28:47 pm
Other schools should not be at the mercy of anothers team season to the point it can bump them from their conference each year just cause someone else won.

Moving up one sport at a time and season to season is not managable.  The trickle down to other schools would me a nightmare and unfair to them.

It's just not a solid answer.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 04:54:31 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 28, 2009, 04:28:47 pm
Other schools should not be at the mercy of anothers team season to the point it can bump them from their conference each year just cause someone else won.

Moving up one sport at a time and season to season is not managable.  The trickle down to other schools would me a nightmare and unfair to them.

It's just not a solid answer.

So a team would rather go 0 - 9 for five years in a row at 4A rather than drop to 3A where they might have a chance?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 04:55:46 pm
You don't reward failure.  What are you going to do?  Move a smaller school  up from another geographic region that went 2-7?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 04:59:55 pm
No, you look at the last 3 seasons.  Are any teams in non-competitive situations.

Any team that is 30 - 0 is poorly matched.  Same for a team  that is 0 - 30.  Yeah it would be a little slap in the face to get demoted (relegated as it is known in Europe)  but the best teams ought to be playing each other.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 05:02:50 pm
A public school should not be altered by how a public school does.  Heck, a team might have a stud group coming up from 9th grade and another might have lost their entire backfield.

I fail to see how a kid just moving up to high school should have his scheduled affected by the results of another team 100 miles away that won X number of games 3 years ago.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 05:04:17 pm
You are right, just do it on the basis on 1 or 2 students that move in and out 100 miles away.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 05:09:04 pm
The enrollment is the enrollment.  Your class size will determine YOUR classification and conference. 

Look at it this way, what if in your example a team goes 0-30 in your example but the rising 9th graders went 20-0 their past two seasons?  You going to move a team down that was successful in their own games against their own age group?

How are you going to have different school teams in different conferences so often?  It alters other sports and your junior high.

Doesn't fly.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 05:20:50 pm
Don't think Robinson and Crossett and Huntsville and Arkadelphia  don't watch those enrollment numbers.  I guess it makes sense to you that if there is a five student change a 9 - 2 team drops down while a 1 - 10 team moves up.  Why in the world should enrollment be the ONLY criterion.

Soccer and Volleyball and Basketball conferences seem very different form Football.  Doesn't cause much problem.

(Oh, enrollment only determines Class, not conference.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 06:04:56 pm
Enrollment numbers are what they are and the sole reason we have 7 classifications right now.  Obviously someone thinks that's an indicator.  If schools manipulate them then that's on them.  You're too hung up on records each year determining future performance.

You also can't compare teams so uniformally.  Going 5-5 in one conference doesn't mean you'll go 5-5 in another.  You seem to have some idealogy that simply playing new oppone ts fixes things.

It's absurd to think Local Tech going 10-20 over a 3-yr sequence being dropped to another conference(and thus forcing one up) determines their future with players that have not even played yet.

You keep coming back to sarcasm, but you simply can't get your theorem to bear fruit.

All that's not to mention how key injuries would falsify strength.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 06:05:47 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 05:20:50 pm
(Oh, enrollment only determines Class, not conference.
Really?  ::)  Actually it does both things.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: TwoMinuteOffense on April 28, 2009, 08:02:22 pm
Should'nt this have been brought up last year after the Glen Rose game. It's pretty much the same Shiloh team as then. Just matured some.  It seems to be ok to play private schools when the private schools lose but not when they win.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: PGTIGERS09 on April 28, 2009, 08:27:25 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 28, 2009, 06:04:56 pm
Enrollment numbers are what they are and the sole reason we have 7 classifications right now.  Obviously someone thinks that's an indicator.  If schools manipulate them then that's on them.  You're too hung up on records each year determining future performance.

You also can't compare teams so uniformally.  Going 5-5 in one conference doesn't mean you'll go 5-5 in another.  You seem to have some idealogy that simply playing new oppone ts fixes things.

It's absurd to think Local Tech going 10-20 over a 3-yr sequence being dropped to another conference(and thus forcing one up) determines their future with players that have not even played yet.

You keep coming back to sarcasm, but you simply can't get your theorem to bear fruit.

All that's not to mention how key injuries would falsify strength.



if enrollment numbers is what we are looking  at then shiloh maybe 2A.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 08:28:38 pm
Quote from: PGTIGERS09 on April 28, 2009, 08:27:25 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 28, 2009, 06:04:56 pm
Enrollment numbers are what they are and the sole reason we have 7 classifications right now.  Obviously someone thinks that's an indicator.  If schools manipulate them then that's on them.  You're too hung up on records each year determining future performance.

You also can't compare teams so uniformally.  Going 5-5 in one conference doesn't mean you'll go 5-5 in another.  You seem to have some idealogy that simply playing new oppone ts fixes things.

It's absurd to think Local Tech going 10-20 over a 3-yr sequence being dropped to another conference(and thus forcing one up) determines their future with players that have not even played yet.

You keep coming back to sarcasm, but you simply can't get your theorem to bear fruit.

All that's not to mention how key injuries would falsify strength.



if enrollment numbers is what we are looking  at then shiloh maybe 2A.

Try harder to keep up. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on April 28, 2009, 08:50:46 pm
The AAA should do like Louisiana did to stop Evangel; make them play within their classification. Shiloh is a 2A based on AAA enrollment. How long would "the family" and "boosters" chest thump about 9 consecutive AA championships. Kids would stop coming to play a better brand. Evangel dropped off for a while, a competitor opened.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on April 28, 2009, 09:17:46 pm
Quote from: fourpeat on April 28, 2009, 08:35:48 am
I couldn't care less about what Shiloh did this year.  I've been one of the "whiners" for years about private schools not needing to be in the playoffs with public schools.  I "whined" about it 14 years ago when Shiloh started putting "district-line-bounded" public schools  out of the playoffs, ending their seasons.  CAC, PA and HA continued with the onslaught in the early 2000's.  I was labeled a "whiner" then, and made predictions about what the trend was going to be; privates would gradually take over high school football in Arkansas unless the AAA did something about it.  Now, hopefully, they will follow through with this action.  Junction City, Greenwood, Nashville, Dollarway, Prescott, West Helena and a few others have all been "robbed" of state championships by private school All-Star teams.  Now is the time to take action.

To say that private schools have robbed titles from public schools is a slap in the face to the players, coaches, parents, and schools. I went to a private school and was fortunate to win a state title my senior year. Our class was full of talent. Several went on to play D1 football and one is now in the NFL. But we did not go out and buy talent like you have accused private schools of doing. Most of the guys on our team had been at the school since elementary school. The hard work we put in was what enabled us to be successful, not money or cheating.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bville.Bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:37:57 pm
Personally, I don't like this proposal to try to put the private schools in their own league. Am I the only one that is worried that if the AAA tries this that the private schools will just tell the AAA to take a hike and that they will do their own thing?? If that happens then the private schools will be able to actually do what most of us accuse them of doing now... Approach kids about going to their school, offer scholarships, etc.... I see what schools like Oak Hill Academy (basketball) and Evangel Christian (football) have been able to do with those priveleges and I can't help but think that schools like Pulaski Academy and Shiloh are just licking their chops hoping this proposal does happen.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on April 28, 2009, 09:42:38 pm
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:37:57 pm
Personally, I don't like this proposal to try to put the private schools in their own league. Am I the only one that is worried that if the AAA tries this that the private schools will just tell the AAA to take a hike and that they will do their own thing?? If that happens then the private schools will be able to actually do what most of us accuse them of doing now... Approach kids about going to their school, offer scholarships, etc.... I see what schools like Oak Hill Academy (basketball) and Evangel Christian (football) have been able to do with those priveleges and I can't help but think that schools like Pulaski Academy and Shiloh are just licking their chops hoping this proposal does happen.

BINGO!!!!! we have a winner!!

As a Springdale citizen with knowledge of people in the SC system they are reaping what they sow.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 09:58:41 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 28, 2009, 06:05:47 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 05:20:50 pm
(Oh, enrollment only determines Class, not conference.
Really?  ::)  Actually it does both things.

How in the world does enrollment affect conference?  I thought that was geography based.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 10:15:53 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 09:58:41 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 28, 2009, 06:05:47 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 05:20:50 pm
(Oh, enrollment only determines Class, not conference.
Really?  ::)  Actually it does both things.

How in the world does enrollment affect conference?  I thought that was geography based.
Seriously?  You're aligned by geographical conferences within a classification.  If it's strictly enrollment, then there'd be no conferences. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:24:25 pm
Gee your are stretching something.  Enrollment decides which 16 (or 64) teams make up a classification.

After that, your enrollment number has NOTHING to do with whether you are in 5A 1, 5A 2, 5 A 3, etc.

Usually the conferences are set up by starting in the four corners of the state and taking the 8 closest schools.  As you work toward cental arkansas, you can end up in any number of conferences.  Note LRCA and Siloam Springs.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 10:28:18 pm
Never mind.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:29:49 pm
Thought so!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 10:33:07 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:29:49 pm
Thought so!
My error was believing you could be helped.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:46:23 pm
Well 5A runs from Forrest City at 755 to Crossett at 483.

Almost everyone else is somewhere between.  Tell me how those number determine conference.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 28, 2009, 10:49:46 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:46:23 pm
Well 5A runs from Forrest City at 755 to Crossett at 483.

Almost everyone else is somewhere between.  Tell me how those number determine conference.
Okay, I'll try.. ;)   Nope, I'm out of spoons.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:53:42 pm
Normally I feel you have common sense, but tonight you are pretty danged random, perhaps just playing the game.

You give me the 16 teams in 7A, I'll make two conferences.  Give me the 16 in 6A, I'll give you 2 more. 

The committee making conferences could care less whether the school has 400 or 450 as long as they are the same class.

It hurts you credibility to argue something so obviously stupid.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 28, 2009, 11:56:37 pm
You wouldn't want to hurt you credibility.                                                                                    Bville.Bobcat, u make a good point.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 29, 2009, 07:16:26 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 10:53:42 pm
Normally I feel you have common sense, but tonight you are pretty danged random, perhaps just playing the game.

You give me the 16 teams in 7A, I'll make two conferences.  Give me the 16 in 6A, I'll give you 2 more. 

The committee making conferences could care less whether the school has 400 or 450 as long as they are the same class.

It hurts you credibility to argue something so obviously stupid.

Why is West Memphis not in the same conference as Fayetteville?  Now careful, they should have been 7A.

Why do you find school in LR that are the same size in the same conference?

Why isn't West Fork in the conference with Hamburg?

Why isn't Alma in Blytheville's conference?

Why is Fay, Bentonville, Springdale, Rogers and Fort Smith all in the same conference?

G-e-o-g-r-a-p-h-y

The state isn't perfectly population centered.  You continue to try and support your claim, but can't.  Classes are drawn and then conferences are aligned the best they can be overall unless a school petitions a change(Russellville/WM).

Your insinuation they are random is absurd because it could be much worse.

Back to your eating your peas Goober.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: transplant on April 29, 2009, 07:35:05 am
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:37:57 pm
Personally, I don't like this proposal to try to put the private schools in their own league. Am I the only one that is worried that if the AAA tries this that the private schools will just tell the AAA to take a hike and that they will do their own thing?? If that happens then the private schools will be able to actually do what most of us accuse them of doing now... Approach kids about going to their school, offer scholarships, etc.... I see what schools like Oak Hill Academy (basketball) and Evangel Christian (football) have been able to do with those priveleges and I can't help but think that schools like Pulaski Academy and Shiloh are just licking their chops hoping this proposal does happen.

That is an empty threat.  There is nothing stopping them from doing this today.  If any school doesn't want to abide by the AAA's rules they are free to go it on their own.  If a private school wants to become a "national powerhouse" all they have to do is drop their AAA membership and start the scheduling process. 

They won't be able to schedule any AAA member schools but they can schedule any other teams from around the country. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 08:00:38 am
Quote from: QF© on April 28, 2009, 06:05:47 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 28, 2009, 05:20:50 pm
(Oh, enrollment only determines Class, not conference.
Really?  ::)  Actually it does both things.

Not so fast QF.  I haven't forgotten your orginal post on this offshoot.

I have always said that once CLASS if determined by enrollment, GEOGRAPHY governs conferences.

YOU said Enrollment does both.  I didn't agree then and don't agree now.

I even pointed out that the conferences are often arranged starting at the four corners of the state, usually (but not always) giving them the closest opponents.

There is the Russelville W. Memphis exception - that is is a clase where geography trumps enrollment, not the other way around.

You orginally said,  Enrollment determines class both and conference.
but once the 5A class is determine, enrollment has nothing to do with the conferences.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arthurhawgerelli on April 29, 2009, 09:27:59 am
Had an interpretation of the proposal that is gaining lots of steam given to me.

This is all based on the way Tennessee handles public/private.  The public and private schools will basically still play each other, and be in each other's conference throughout the regular season.  When it comes playoff time, there will be a public school playoff, which won't be much different from the way it is set up now.  The private schools will then have a Division I playoff and Division II playoff, which means the successful schools will be in D-I and the others will be in D-II.  I think this is win-win because the Subiaco's and Lutherans etc., now will also be in competition for a title.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Downhill Run to Papeete on April 29, 2009, 10:02:35 am
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:37:57 pm
Personally, I don't like this proposal to try to put the private schools in their own league. Am I the only one that is worried that if the AAA tries this that the private schools will just tell the AAA to take a hike and that they will do their own thing?? If that happens then the private schools will be able to actually do what most of us accuse them of doing now... Approach kids about going to their school, offer scholarships, etc.... I see what schools like Oak Hill Academy (basketball) and Evangel Christian (football) have been able to do with those priveleges and I can't help but think that schools like Pulaski Academy and Shiloh are just licking their chops hoping this proposal does happen.
Yes, you are.

I've just started keeping up with this private vs public debate, and I would like to challenge the logic of several of you.  If a kid in high school drops out, should he be eligible for all the privileges of the public school in the town that he lives in (ie., free lunches, special services, transportation to town via bus, etc..)?  If 11 boys were to drop out in one school, should they be allowed to form a team and be a part of the AAA playoffs and have all the benefits that AAA public school teams get?  According to a lot of you, you seem to have this logic.  If a kid drops out of a public school and gets his GED, according to your logic, he should be able to go through the graduating ceremony of the local high school, and have it handed to him by the public school principal.  If a kid chooses to drop out of a public school and go to a private school, you think that he should have all the same privaleges offered by that public school, like participation in the public school athletics system.  Your logic is flawed and none of your arguments are valid.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 29, 2009, 11:21:42 am
Quote from: arthurhawgerelli on April 29, 2009, 09:27:59 am
Had an interpretation of the proposal that is gaining lots of steam given to me.

This is all based on the way Tennessee handles public/private.  The public and private schools will basically still play each other, and be in each other's conference throughout the regular season.  When it comes playoff time, there will be a public school playoff, which won't be much different from the way it is set up now.  The private schools will then have a Division I playoff and Division II playoff, which means the successful schools will be in D-I and the others will be in D-II.  I think this is win-win because the Subiaco's and Lutherans etc., now will also be in competition for a title.
I like the proposal, except public schools should only have to play the privates if its a mutual agreement.I think they should have their own conf.,publics have there own and if they agree to play each other in a nonconf. game that's cool. That way the public schools have some control over who they play.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Coach Venny Slocombe on April 29, 2009, 11:33:39 am
Quote from: arthurhawgerelli on April 29, 2009, 09:27:59 am
Had an interpretation of the proposal that is gaining lots of steam given to me.

This is all based on the way Tennessee handles public/private.  The public and private schools will basically still play each other, and be in each other's conference throughout the regular season.  When it comes playoff time, there will be a public school playoff, which won't be much different from the way it is set up now.  The private schools will then have a Division I playoff and Division II playoff, which means the successful schools will be in D-I and the others will be in D-II.  I think this is win-win because the Subiaco's and Lutherans etc., now will also be in competition for a title.
I hope this flies.............great proposal!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: holdup on April 29, 2009, 11:42:55 am
Quote from: Downhill Run to Papeete on April 29, 2009, 10:02:35 am<br />
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:37:57 pm<br />Personally, I don't like this proposal to try to put the private schools in their own league. <b>Am I the only one that is worried that if the AAA tries this that the private schools will just tell the AAA to take a hike and that they will do their own thing?</b>? If that happens then the private schools will be able to actually do what most of us accuse them of doing now... Approach kids about going to their school, offer scholarships, etc.... I see what schools like Oak Hill Academy (basketball) and Evangel Christian (football) have been able to do with those priveleges and I can't help but think that schools like Pulaski Academy and Shiloh are just licking their chops hoping this proposal does happen.<br />
<br />Yes, you are.<br /><br />I've just started keeping up with this private vs public debate, and I would like to challenge the logic of several of you.  If a kid in high school drops out, should he be eligible for all the privileges of the public school in the town that he lives in (ie., free lunches, special services, transportation to town via bus, etc..)?  If 11 boys were to drop out in one school, should they be allowed to form a team and be a part of the AAA playoffs and have all the benefits that AAA public school teams get?  According to a lot of you, you seem to have this logic.  If a kid drops out of a public school and gets his GED, according to your logic, he should be able to go through the graduating ceremony of the local high school, and have it handed to him by the public school principal.  If a kid chooses to drop out of a public school and go to a private school, you think that he should have all the same privaleges offered by that public school, like participation in the public school athletics system.  Your logic is flawed and none of your arguments are valid.<br />

The private schools parents are making it possible for schools to receive 8-10 thousand dollars per kid to the public school system through their taxes.  The private school families pay the same public school taxes as do the public school families to start with.  If all of the private school kids and home schooled kids all went back to the public schools at the same time, your taxes would either increase dramatically or the schools would go down hill dramatically because not enough money is being given. 

Drop-outs would be handled differently by the AAA.  Home-schooled kids do not get to participate in athletics with the AAA because there is no real regulations on grades, etc.  Private schools (regardless of what most understand) are held to very high standards with their accreditation to be able to participate in the AAA.  It isn't like a bunch of lawless, unsupervised organizations putting together athletic teams.  It is schools run locally (like our governing laws are supposed to be providing) instead of federally, allowing kids to participate in a PRIVATELY-run organization called the AAA.

I guess all golfers that are members of a private organization should be banned from all public courses as well.  Ok, that part was a joke. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: jrbballguy on April 29, 2009, 12:13:56 pm
Quote from: holdup on April 29, 2009, 11:42:55 am<br />
Quote from: Downhill Run to Papeete on April 29, 2009, 10:02:35 am<br />
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on April 28, 2009, 09:37:57 pm<br />Personally, I don't like this proposal to try to put the private schools in their own league. <b>Am I the only one that is worried that if the AAA tries this that the private schools will just tell the AAA to take a hike and that they will do their own thing?</b>? If that happens then the private schools will be able to actually do what most of us accuse them of doing now... Approach kids about going to their school, offer scholarships, etc.... I see what schools like Oak Hill Academy (basketball) and Evangel Christian (football) have been able to do with those priveleges and I can't help but think that schools like Pulaski Academy and Shiloh are just licking their chops hoping this proposal does happen.<br />
<br />Yes, you are.<br /><br />I've just started keeping up with this private vs public debate, and I would like to challenge the logic of several of you.  If a kid in high school drops out, should he be eligible for all the privileges of the public school in the town that he lives in (ie., free lunches, special services, transportation to town via bus, etc..)?  If 11 boys were to drop out in one school, should they be allowed to form a team and be a part of the AAA playoffs and have all the benefits that AAA public school teams get?  According to a lot of you, you seem to have this logic.  If a kid drops out of a public school and gets his GED, according to your logic, he should be able to go through the graduating ceremony of the local high school, and have it handed to him by the public school principal.  If a kid chooses to drop out of a public school and go to a private school, you think that he should have all the same privaleges offered by that public school, like participation in the public school athletics system.  Your logic is flawed and none of your arguments are valid.<br />
<br /><br />The private schools parents are making it possible for schools to receive 8-10 thousand dollars per kid to the public school system through their taxes.  The private school families pay the same public school taxes as do the public school families to start with.  If all of the private school kids and home schooled kids all went back to the public schools at the same time, your taxes would either increase dramatically or the schools would go down hill dramatically because not enough money is being given.  <br /><br />

Don't really know where you came up with that....
sure everyone pays the same taxes, where private and public schools are different is private schools don't get the funding from the state government that the public schools do, hence the tuition you speak of.  And if you can afford it, go for it.  Public schools receive X amount of money for each student that attends in that district, so if the private school kids went to public school, the government pays the school district for those kids.  The public school doesn't get a dime for students that don't attend their school even if they live in their district and go to private school.  Most private schools have what...300 students coming from multiple school districts?
If you actually think that private schools are "helping" public schools financially, that's a rather arrogant and pompas way of looking at things
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Downhill Run to Papeete on April 29, 2009, 12:31:32 pm
jrbballguy, they don't have an argument.  Everything they are spouting out is rhetoric.  Nothing more, just rhetoric.  You can argue all day long that a square is round.  You can state that each side has some sort of roundness to it, each angle approaches 360 degrees, it has a center just like a circle.  But at the end of the argument, it's still a square.  Private schools are loaded with high school "goal-oriented drop-outs," who want the best of both worlds.  Freedom from public-school rules and regulations, but the benefits that they provide.  Public school conferences and playoffs provide a terrific venue for athletes and schools, and the private school students/parents, who have abandoned the public schools, want it too.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 01:01:39 pm
Well some aspects of both those statement is true. I think it is true that public schools recieve a per/pupil amount - but I am not sure if that is from the state or local funding.


Do not under estimate the impact the closing private schools would have in the Central Arkansas area.  There would neither be classrooms or funding if 3000 new high school students showed up.  The isn't another $15,000,000 just lying around to give to the school system.

I guess you could raise taxes or slash extracurricular activities.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 29, 2009, 01:05:25 pm
I like the fact that you discredit the opposing opinion. I would love to be able to understand your posts.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: sportime on April 29, 2009, 01:07:31 pm
PUBLIC SCHOOLS ONLY GET MONEY  FOR STUDENTS ENROLLED IN THAT DISTRICT!!  If you are home-schooled or go to a private school the school automatically loses that per student 8-10 thousand dollars.  I know you still pay taxes but I don't know where it goes.  Like if Searcy has 3300 students that is how their funding is figured, only on students enrolled in the school.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 29, 2009, 01:27:44 pm
All this still comes to down to the competitive nature of the AAA governed sports.  That's all.

If public schools that have to abide by certain rules that privates don't and they determine they don't want to compete with them, then that's their right.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: transplant on April 29, 2009, 01:36:04 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 01:01:39 pm
Well some aspects of both those statement is true. I think it is true that public schools recieve a per/pupil amount - but I am not sure if that is from the state or local funding.


Do not under estimate the impact the closing private schools would have in the Central Arkansas area.  There would neither be classrooms or funding if 3000 new high school students showed up.  The isn't another $15,000,000 just lying around to give to the school system.

I guess you could raise taxes or slash extracurricular activities.


In Arkansas the local district contributes about 35% of the funding.

15 million would be less than .6% (About 1/2 of 1%) of what is spent on education in the State.  (total budget 2.7 billion.

However, the increased interest from patrons who previously had ignored the public schools (except on game days) might help improve the performance of the public schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: jrbballguy on April 29, 2009, 01:41:54 pm
most of the local "tax money" is spent on building up-keep, maintenance, new buildings, electric bills, water bills, gas bills, transportation cost, and some goes to teacher salaries (that's why each district is unique with what the teachers get paid). 
When towns ask for a mil increase they are usually wanting to either give teachers a raise or build new buildings
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 01:43:22 pm
OK,  you try it.  Go up to your local school super and ask how the system would fare if 35% more students showed up in August.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: transplant on April 29, 2009, 01:49:50 pm
Where does the 35% number come from in your hypothetical situation?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 29, 2009, 02:43:36 pm
Quote from: Downhill Run to Papeete on April 29, 2009, 12:31:32 pm
Private schools are loaded with high school "goal-oriented drop-outs,"

What color is the sky in your world?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 29, 2009, 03:00:37 pm
School funding is a lttle tricky ,and would take more time than I have to completly explain it. But the argument that you help pay for public schools,even while your kids attend a private school is partially true.But its everyones duty to pay their fair share of taxes,I pay taxes for service's that I may or may not ever use. Folks that don't have any kids at all pay taxes for schools as well,its the law. School funding comes from 3 sources,Federal,State and local.
  Federal funding makes up a very small portion of a public schools overall budget.It is uaually designated for certain programs and cannot be used for anything else.
   Local funding is made up of tax money paid on real property within the district. Each school district has a millage rate set by the voters,the min. as set by the state is 25mils, it can be higher if approved by the voters but it can't be less. The value of 1 mil is different in each district,the value of a mil is determined by the assessed property value within the district.In one district a mil could be worth $150,000 in another a mil could only be worth $20,000. It depends on the assessed value within the district boundries. So heres how it works, multiply your school districts millage value X number of approved mils, example $50,000 x 35 mils = $1.75 millon. So local taxes contribute 1.75 million dollars to the school district. Here's where the state funds come in, divide 1.75 million by the number of student in district lets say 600, ok 1.75 divided by 600 = $2.916.67 per child is generated by local taxes,The state puts in the difference so that each school has the $5,800 per child that they say it takes to educate a child. Some districts get more help than others,thats what they refer to as the wealth index. If a larger percentage of your funding comes from the state you are considered a poor district. Thats school funding in a nut shell, I gotta go.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 29, 2009, 03:21:05 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on April 29, 2009, 03:00:37 pm
But the argument that you help pay for public schools,even while your kids attend a private school is partially true.

The other thing that is true is that most private school parents who I know don't have any problem with that.  They understand that the public school is an important part of any community.

This irrational hatred doesn't run both ways with everyone.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 03:37:08 pm
Quote from: transplant on April 29, 2009, 01:49:50 pm
Where does the 35% number come from in your hypothetical situation?

I took about 6000 for the LRSD High School Enrollment (off their website) , and about 2200 from the privates schools (using AAA Classification numbers).


(And to save you the trouble  2200 x 1.75 =  3850 or 64%!!)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: transplant on April 29, 2009, 03:51:28 pm
So none of the students in Central Arkansas private schools would be from PCSSD, North Little Rock, Conway, Benton, Bryant etc...?

Your "straw man" isn't holding up.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 04:45:07 pm
(oh, and I left out NLR)

1)  Conway, Benton, and Bryant - I don't think they'd notice a difference, unless some families moved from LR to those cities.  I don't think that many drive in.

2) PCSSD - very little.  If a parent is in a private school for academics, it is a non-starter

3)  Central very little, they are full, though it might limit the out of distric kids who are able to transfer in.

4)  Charter schools would explode - ESTEM, LISA and Academics +  (all public schools) especially.

5)  Not sure where the other 1000 would go, but at least there would be more money to buy portable classrooms.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 29, 2009, 05:26:11 pm
What do you mean by "non-starter"? Honest question.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: OldScrap on April 29, 2009, 05:44:09 pm
DateTime OpponentResult
9/05/08TBA@Evangel Christian Academy (Shreveport, LA)   9-47 (L)  -40

9/12/08TBA@Lincoln Christian (Tulsa, OK)                            14-7 (W)

9/19/08TBAvs.Greenwood (Greenwood, AR)                         37-20 (W)

9/26/08TBA@Berryville (Berryville, AR)                                  *65-0 (W)    + 65 ********

10/03/08TBAvs.Pea Ridge (Pea Ridge, AR)                           *52-0 (W)    + 52

10/10/08TBAvs.Prairie Grove (Prairie Grove, AR)                  *49-8 (W)     + 41

10/17/08TBA@Gentry (Gentry, AR)                                       *70-3 (W)     + 67

10/24/08TBA@Gravette (Gravette, AR)                               *49-14 (W)    +35

10/31/08TBAvs.Huntsville (Huntsville, AR)                           *42-7 (W)     + 35

11/07/087:00 PMvs.Farmington (Farmington, AR)                *51-0  (W)      +51

11/21/08TBAvs.Clarksville (Clarksville, AR)                       ***84-14 (W)    + 70 ******************

11/28/08TBAvs.Lonoke (Lonoke, AR)                                *** 47-7  (W)     +40

12/05/08TBAvs.Osceola (Osceola, AR)                              ***51-12  (W)     + 39

12/13/08TBA@Dollarway (Pine Bluff, AR)                          ***42-18  (W)     

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: holdup on April 29, 2009, 05:57:17 pm
Quote from: alou2 on April 29, 2009, 01:07:31 pm<br />PUBLIC SCHOOLS ONLY GET MONEY  FOR STUDENTS ENROLLED IN THAT DISTRICT!!  If you are home-schooled or go to a private school the school automatically loses that per student 8-10 thousand dollars.  I know you still pay taxes but I don't know where it goes.  Like if Searcy has 3300 students that is how their funding is figured, only on students enrolled in the school.<br />

Ok then, listen slowly.  The pot is bigger because of the taxes that private school parents pay and don't use.  That enables the public schools to receive a larger portion per student in the district.  If all of the private school and homeschooled children wanted to show up to school, there would be more staff, more buildings, more buses, more textbooks, more food, etc.  Just a fact.  Point was being made to the one who asked "what gives them the right....?"
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 29, 2009, 05:59:50 pm
Well if our boys can't stop SC from killing them, that is our fault. Why should they have to move just because we suck?         SERIOUSLY. DO YOU NEED ANY OTHER PROOF THAT SC SHOULD NOT BE IN OUR CONFERENCE. OR CLASS?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 29, 2009, 06:47:59 pm
If the private schools want to play in public school leagues, even the ADG knows how they should be grouped   ;)

http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=92267.msg1957146#msg1957146
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 06:49:47 pm
Quote from: bobcat on April 29, 2009, 05:26:11 pm
What do you mean by "non-starter"? Honest question.

I would have a hard time placing any of the PCSSD schools in the top 10% academically.  Presumable a parent who has a kid in a private school has been willing to pay $6000 for a "better" education.  Just isn't like they are going to head back to Oak Grove, etc.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: noonerricky on April 29, 2009, 08:30:43 pm
I am tired of hearing about private schools and how they recruit and all this junk, who cares let them play.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 08:33:38 pm
Quote from: bleudog on April 29, 2009, 06:47:59 pm
If the private schools want to play in public school leagues, even the ADG knows how they should be grouped   ;)

http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=92267.msg1957146#msg1957146

Huh?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 29, 2009, 08:36:49 pm
Try to keep up.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: transplant on April 29, 2009, 09:20:58 pm
Quote from: holdup on April 29, 2009, 05:57:17 pm
...If all of the private school and homeschooled children wanted to show up to school, there would be more staff, more buildings, more buses, more textbooks, more food, etc. 

etc. would include more parents involved in the school, more concerned citizens who would push to make schools better, more volunteers, more students providing positive influences within the school.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 07:04:49 am
Two odd things in the DemGaz article on the Separate Playoff proposal passed at district level yesterday.

First was the margin, only 2 votes over what it would take to pass at the State level (2/3).  And that's in the area where Shiloh builds the greatest animosity.  It could be a close vote in August.

The other is the deadline.  Giving the private schools only 90 days to set up a playoff system is likely to be challenged.

But heck, they can go to 6 Classifications like the Public schools and EVERY private school can play for a championship!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Uncle Ivan on April 30, 2009, 07:31:33 am
I'd lay good money on private school backers suing the AAA if this passes.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 07:38:54 am
Yeah,  I think so too.  Might be better if they just said,  "Any private school winning a state championship automatically moves up for the next cycle."

But this offers the distinctly disturbing scenario and which Shiloh would run up a 35 nothing lead, then hand the ball off to the other team 5 times in a row to allow them to win so they can stay in the lower Class.  Shiloh would know they were better, the runner up would know they were NOT the best team.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: sportime on April 30, 2009, 08:09:45 am
Yes, and if all those students came back to the public schools it would bring back millions of dollars.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: fastdrop on April 30, 2009, 08:18:36 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 07:04:49 am
Two odd things in the DemGaz article on the Separate Playoff proposal passed at district level yesterday.

First was the margin, only 2 votes over what it would take to pass at the State level (2/3).  And that's in the area where Shiloh builds the greatest animosity.  It could be a close vote in August.

The other is the deadline.  Giving the private schools only 90 days to set up a playoff system is likely to be challenged.

But heck, they can go to 6 Classifications like the Public schools and EVERY private school can play for a championship!
6A and 7A is almost that way now.....12 out of 16 teams make the play-offs. Not very entertaining.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: holdup on April 30, 2009, 08:24:25 am
Quote from: alou2 on April 30, 2009, 08:09:45 am<br />Yes, and if all those students came back to the public schools it would bring back millions of dollars.<br />

No it wouldn't.  The pot of money for education is what it is.  It is divided by the number of students attending public schools.  So if a school receives $8,000 per student now, that number would decrease because that same pot would be divided by more students.  Then taxes would be raised to accomodate the new number of students that it is being divided by. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on April 30, 2009, 08:33:31 am
Quote from: fastdrop on April 30, 2009, 08:18:36 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 07:04:49 am
Two odd things in the DemGaz article on the Separate Playoff proposal passed at district level yesterday.

First was the margin, only 2 votes over what it would take to pass at the State level (2/3).  And that's in the area where Shiloh builds the greatest animosity.  It could be a close vote in August.

The other is the deadline.  Giving the private schools only 90 days to set up a playoff system is likely to be challenged.

But heck, they can go to 6 Classifications like the Public schools and EVERY private school can play for a championship!
6A and 7A is almost that way now.....12 out of 16 teams make the play-offs. Not very entertaining.

next "cycle" ALL 6 and 7A make playoffs, thanks to Siloam Springs whining about travel


If you read the article in the D/G Farmington and Berryville seem to be the schools complaining the most about Shiloh.  If this measure passes private schools will still play public in regular season games but compete vs each other for state championships.  Something tells me if SC plays Berryville or Farmington again it will be 100-0 if possible.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 08:38:54 am
It would seem by the vote more than "Berryville and Farmington" think it's worthy of a change.

I know of one school that was afraid of scoreboard retaliation when they voted.  The fact you would have to worry about that speaks in of itself as to the value of the proposal and why it was written.

Shiloh's act of attrition is a little late and hollow.  Those most responsible for why this is occurring are unapologetic while their puppet pretends otherwise at meetings.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Love Handle on April 30, 2009, 08:49:40 am
If the proposal passes will Catholic be exempt or would they be grouped with the other privates?  Catholic seems to have a different standing within the AAA. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: eagle1 on April 30, 2009, 08:57:38 am
Interesting to note that every argument is based on the fact that Shiloh runs up the score. No comments at all on the public schools that run up the score. For example, Fountain Lake ran the score up all the way through the play-offs, that is until they lost in the championship game. No one every made any comments or arguments when PA, CAC, and Shiloh were getting beat every game by 30, 40, and 50 points. The real solution is work harder and beat the private schools on the field.

An earlier comment was made that you do not reward failure, so on the flip side, why punish success?

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Jimbo Morphis on April 30, 2009, 09:07:33 am
i heard a rumor this morning that shiloh has been invited to join the big 12.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 09:21:45 am
Quote from: Love Handle on April 30, 2009, 08:49:40 am
If the proposal passes will Catholic be exempt or would they be grouped with the other privates?  Catholic seems to have a different standing within the AAA. 

Well that will start the lawsuit Ivan predicts!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Uncle Ivan on April 30, 2009, 09:26:24 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 09:21:45 am

Well that will start the lawsuit Ivan predicts!

What was that guy's name who sued a few years ago that had a son playing at Baptist?

I'm thinking it was Gary something.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Uncle Ivan on April 30, 2009, 09:28:40 am
Quote from: fourpeat on April 28, 2009, 08:35:48 amJunction City, Greenwood, Nashville, Dollarway, Prescott, West Helena and a few others have all been "robbed" of state championships by private school All-Star teams.

Wynne belongs in that category as well.

When you are playing a private school that isn't half your size, but has three or four times the talent, something is very wrong.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:35:27 am
Can anyone define the specific issue or unfair advantage that the AAA needs to address?  I see several references to Shiloh scoring too many points, but is there a specific issue or cause of unfair advantage that can be addressed with a rule change?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Uncle Ivan on April 30, 2009, 09:39:08 am
Kinda hard to do a rule regarding the geographical area from which a private can draw students from.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 09:55:52 am
More so the number of privates within a geographical area.  In all of Wash & Benton Co, there is one that plays football.  That's a huge built-in advantage.

I want to state for the record that I am not anti-private school.  Not to mention some of them do things in a much more professional way.  However, when a soph dominated team runs roughshod over their entire conference with all mercy rules while also backing down a little the competitive balance is obviously amuck.

Over time, the monster feeds itself.  Try living with that in the small towns that populate that conference.  They know they need to work harder.  They know they need to coach better.  But if they're not careful, they run the added risk of losing players to that monster as occurred last year.

In NWA, it's not a level playing field and it's getting worse.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on April 30, 2009, 10:00:29 am
Does anyone know when the district meetings are to vote on this proposal?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 10:01:35 am
The district in NWA already met.

http://nwanews.com/adg/Sports/258470/
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on April 30, 2009, 10:05:48 am
OK, thanks.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: fourpeat on April 30, 2009, 10:09:42 am
Quote from: noonerricky on April 29, 2009, 08:30:43 pm
I am tired of hearing about private schools and how they recruit and all this junk, who cares let them play.
...and let them eat public school lunches and graduate with them too.  If they are having trouble in their private school classrooms, make it law that the public school teachers are responsible for making sure that they learn their private school curriculum.  While your at it, here are a few more responsibilities that, according to what you are saying, you should be asking for from the public schools: The public schools should provide private students with free transportation to school, give free councelling from the public school councellors.  The public school councellors should be advising students in the way of scholorships for colleges, should I keep going?  Aren't there many other things besides athletics that you should be demanding of the public schools?  I like what Downhill Run To Papeete says about high school dropouts forming teams and competing.  He's right.  According to your logic, we should just allow all kids, whether they are in public schools or not, to form their own teams and compete in AAA sanctioned events.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: DeezHuevos on April 30, 2009, 10:15:21 am
thanks shiloh
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 10:21:29 am
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 09:55:52 am
More so the number of privates within a geographical area.  In all of Wash & Benton Co, there is one that plays football.  That's a huge built-in advantage.

I want to state for the record that I am not anti-private school.  Not to mention some of them do things in a much more professional way.  However, when a soph dominated team runs roughshod over their entire conference with all mercy rules while also backing down a little the competitive balance is obviously amuck.

Over time, the monster feeds itself.  Try living with that in the small towns that populate that conference.  They know they need to work harder.  They know they need to coach better.  But if they're not careful, they run the added risk of losing players to that monster as occurred last year.

In NWA, it's not a level playing field and it's getting worse.

It IS a monster that creates it's own momentum.  Witness Barton and Nashville among others.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 10:32:57 am
Didn't AAA implement a geographic limit last year.  How does that affect the situation, and how long will it take to have an impact?

Seems like Shiloh would have some pretty stiff competition for students in NWA where you have some of the best football and academic programs in the state.  If a football family moves into NWA, they are looking at 2007 7A state champ Fayetteville, a very successful Rogers, 2007 7-A runner-up and 2008 SE Select champ Harber, Springdale with all its championship tradition, and the opportunity to play for Barry Lunney at 2008 State champ Bentonville.  All those schools also have superior facilities to Shiloh.  I don't know if adding another private school to the mix would do much if the primary motivation is football or academics.  If decisions are motivated by other things, maybe it would.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: GLion Alum on April 30, 2009, 10:49:12 am
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 09:55:52 am
More so the number of privates within a geographical area.  In all of Wash & Benton Co, there is one that plays football.  That's a huge built-in advantage.

I want to state for the record that I am not anti-private school.  Not to mention some of them do things in a much more professional way.  However, when a soph dominated team runs roughshod over their entire conference with all mercy rules while also backing down a little the competitive balance is obviously amuck.

Over time, the monster feeds itself.  Try living with that in the small towns that populate that conference.  They know they need to work harder.  They know they need to coach better.  But if they're not careful, they run the added risk of losing players to that monster as occurred last year.

In NWA, it's not a level playing field and it's getting worse.

Agreed.  But I will add that last year they ran roughshod over the entire 4A in the playoffs, backing off just a little against Dollarway in the fourth quarter of the finals just to keep it from being another mercy-rule win--just for "public relations."  This fall will be even worse, and the next year worse yet.  In the past I've taken the position that the public schools should accept the challenge and try to improve their programs, but, for whatever reason(s), the Shiloh program has just gotten too good to be competitive at any level except possibly the 7A. 

I noticed that Fayetteville voted against the proposal, and I suspect some of the other 7A schools did, too.  I'd like to see how they would vote after a few years of having Shiloh in their conference.  (I saw the Fayetteville-Shiloh scrimmage last August that 7A fans frequently mention.  Trust me, the Shiloh team that played that night was nowhere near the quality of team that they were fielding a few weeks later.)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 10:56:30 am
Quote from: fourpeat on April 28, 2009, 08:35:48 amJunction City, Greenwood, Nashville, Dollarway, Prescott, West Helena and a few others have all been "robbed" of state championships by private school All-Star teams.

What is amazing is that you can't even see that several of the teams on that list DEFEATED PRIVATE SCHOOLS on the way to state championships of their own.

Quote from: fourpeat on April 30, 2009, 10:09:42 am
According to your logic, we should just allow all kids, whether they are in public schools or not, to form their own teams and compete in AAA sanctioned events.

No, AAA schools should compete in AAA sanctioned events following AAA rules.  Currently, that's EXACTLY what is taking place.  If a school, whether it's public or private, breaks the rules, then deal with THAT INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL.  There's no reason to lump them all together. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 10:56:43 am
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 10:01:35 am
The district in NWA already met.

http://nwanews.com/adg/Sports/258470/
Great story,I talked with our supt. he is quite sure this thing will pass if they get to vote on it.He believes it will end up in court just like the multiplier issue.So that means the private school folks will hire lawyers and attempt to convience a judge that they have the god givin right to compete against public school in athletics!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Love Handle on April 30, 2009, 11:07:04 am
Serious question:  Is the AAA funded by its member schools or does it receive state funding making it a state office?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 11:14:24 am
Quote from: OldScrap on April 29, 2009, 05:44:09 pm
DateTime OpponentResult
9/05/08TBA@Evangel Christian Academy (Shreveport, LA)   9-47 (L)  -40

9/12/08TBA@Lincoln Christian (Tulsa, OK)                            14-7 (W)

9/19/08TBAvs.Greenwood (Greenwood, AR)                         37-20 (W)

9/26/08TBA@Berryville (Berryville, AR)                                  *65-0 (W)    + 65 ********

10/03/08TBAvs.Pea Ridge (Pea Ridge, AR)                           *52-0 (W)    + 52

10/10/08TBAvs.Prairie Grove (Prairie Grove, AR)                  *49-8 (W)     + 41

10/17/08TBA@Gentry (Gentry, AR)                                       *70-3 (W)     + 67

10/24/08TBA@Gravette (Gravette, AR)                               *49-14 (W)    +35

10/31/08TBAvs.Huntsville (Huntsville, AR)                           *42-7 (W)     + 35

11/07/087:00 PMvs.Farmington (Farmington, AR)                *51-0  (W)      +51

11/21/08TBAvs.Clarksville (Clarksville, AR)                       ***84-14 (W)    + 70 ******************

11/28/08TBAvs.Lonoke (Lonoke, AR)                                *** 47-7  (W)     +40

12/05/08TBAvs.Osceola (Osceola, AR)                              ***51-12  (W)     + 39

12/13/08TBA@Dollarway (Pine Bluff, AR)                          ***42-18  (W)     



09-05-2008   Gurdon   Junction City   7 - 35
09-12-2008   Junction City   Hermitage   47 - 0
09-19-2008   Woodlawn   Junction City   8 - 41
09-26-2008   Junction City   Norphlet   70 - 0
10-03-2008   Bearden   Junction City   0 - 43
10-10-2008   Junction City   Smackover   40 - 7
10-17-2008   Junction City   Dermott   50 - 0
10-24-2008   Junction City   Strong   37 - 6
10-31-2008   Junction City   OPEN   -
11-06-2008   Hampton   Junction City   0 - 66
11-14-2008   Junction City   Bye   -
11-21-2008   Junction City   Dierks   39 - 0
11-28-2008   Junction City   Strong   24 - 12
12-05-2008   Junction City   Carlisle   29 - 7
12-13-2008   Junction City   Des Arc   10 - 8


Shiloh won by an average of 35.9 points.  Junction City won by an average of 36.6 points.

Would anyone care to tell me what steps are being taken to insure that Junction City is not allowed to do that again?  They have to be an "All Star" team, right?  They must have done something outside the rules, right?  Should they just be moved up one class or all the way to 7A?

(For the dense, I have no issue with JC.)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on April 30, 2009, 11:17:33 am
Quote from: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 10:56:43 am
Great story,I talked with our supt. he is quite sure this thing will pass if they get to vote on it.He believes it will end up in court just like the multiplier issue.So that means the private school folks will hire lawyers and attempt to convience a judge that they have the god givin right to compete against public school in athletics!
I think it will pass.  If it needs 2/3 vote to become a new rule, I bet they can get the 198 votes out of 300 needed. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 11:17:59 am
Stick to the facts HA.  What Shiloh did is wrong.  Junction City just worked hard.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 11:19:10 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 11:17:59 am
Stick to the facts HA.  What Shiloh did is wrong.  Junction City just worked hard.

Obviously.  ;)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: hoopsin53 on April 30, 2009, 11:24:20 am
this doesn't just affect football, but all sports.  i want one person from the public schools to defend guy-perkins.  they won a state championship this year with transfers from all over. every year they have been there has been with transfers.  every year they try to embarrass people.  i just don't get why people overlook public schools like this if they are going to complain about private schools.  people say that private schools use facilities to draw kids too. 

transfers EVERY season? check.
running the score up? check.
great facility? check.

they are definitely not the only public school that has a whole new crew from transfers every year either.  people from quitman on here talking about unfair playing grounds.  they are 5 miles from guy!  the things private schools get accused of is guy-perkins' average year.  explanation anyone?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 11:30:04 am
Here's an excerpt from a news article describing the AAA 25 mile rule that recently went into effect.  What effect will this have on Shiloh?

"Another new rule that will affect Shiloh is the transfer rule. For the next cycle, any athlete who transfers after July 1 of the 10 th grade year to a nonpublic school must sit out a year of eligibility unless that student actually moves into the local district. Any students transferring in must live within 25 miles of the school."

Will this rule stay in effect if the new proposal is passed? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on April 30, 2009, 11:35:32 am
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on April 30, 2009, 11:14:24 am
Quote from: OldScrap on April 29, 2009, 05:44:09 pm
DateTime OpponentResult
9/05/08TBA@Evangel Christian Academy (Shreveport, LA)   9-47 (L)  -40

9/12/08TBA@Lincoln Christian (Tulsa, OK)                            14-7 (W)

9/19/08TBAvs.Greenwood (Greenwood, AR)                         37-20 (W)

9/26/08TBA@Berryville (Berryville, AR)                                  *65-0 (W)    + 65 ********

10/03/08TBAvs.Pea Ridge (Pea Ridge, AR)                           *52-0 (W)    + 52

10/10/08TBAvs.Prairie Grove (Prairie Grove, AR)                  *49-8 (W)     + 41

10/17/08TBA@Gentry (Gentry, AR)                                       *70-3 (W)     + 67

10/24/08TBA@Gravette (Gravette, AR)                               *49-14 (W)    +35

10/31/08TBAvs.Huntsville (Huntsville, AR)                           *42-7 (W)     + 35

11/07/087:00 PMvs.Farmington (Farmington, AR)                *51-0  (W)      +51

11/21/08TBAvs.Clarksville (Clarksville, AR)                       ***84-14 (W)    + 70 ******************

11/28/08TBAvs.Lonoke (Lonoke, AR)                                *** 47-7  (W)     +40

12/05/08TBAvs.Osceola (Osceola, AR)                              ***51-12  (W)     + 39

12/13/08TBA@Dollarway (Pine Bluff, AR)                          ***42-18  (W)     



09-05-2008   Gurdon   Junction City   7 - 35
09-12-2008   Junction City   Hermitage   47 - 0
09-19-2008   Woodlawn   Junction City   8 - 41
09-26-2008   Junction City   Norphlet   70 - 0
10-03-2008   Bearden   Junction City   0 - 43
10-10-2008   Junction City   Smackover   40 - 7
10-17-2008   Junction City   Dermott   50 - 0
10-24-2008   Junction City   Strong   37 - 6
10-31-2008   Junction City   OPEN   -
11-06-2008   Hampton   Junction City   0 - 66
11-14-2008   Junction City   Bye   -
11-21-2008   Junction City   Dierks   39 - 0
11-28-2008   Junction City   Strong   24 - 12
12-05-2008   Junction City   Carlisle   29 - 7
12-13-2008   Junction City   Des Arc   10 - 8


Shiloh won by an average of 35.9 points.  Junction City won by an average of 36.6 points.

Would anyone care to tell me what steps are being taken to insure that Junction City is not allowed to do that again?  They have to be an "All Star" team, right?  They must have done something outside the rules, right?  Should they just be moved up one class or all the way to 7A?

(For the dense, I have no issue with JC.)

Agreed. It was Shiloh's "job" to score points and to prevent the other team from scoring, as was JC. They are beasts. Yes, some of their posters are arrogant beyond belief. However, their success on the field should be respected. Yes, there is a point where private schools should be put in a class by themselves, but we're not there yet. Remember, season before last, Shiloh was defeated in the finals by GLEN ROSE!! The rest of the 4A needs to quit whining about Shiloh and bring their programs up to their level instead of trying to take the easy way out.  
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 11:46:44 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 29, 2009, 08:33:38 pm
Quote from: bleudog on April 29, 2009, 06:47:59 pm
If the private schools want to play in public school leagues, even the ADG knows how they should be grouped   ;)

http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=92267.msg1957146#msg1957146

Huh?

These are all Little Rock "metro" area schools.

The point I made pages ago was pretty basic, if a private school wishes to participate in public school athletics, they should be group in the class and district of the public school in which most of its students would normally be required to attend by residency requirements. 

In other words, if you draw the bulk of your students for a particular district, that's where you should play regardless of enrollment since cherry picking out of a larger pool of potential athletes is an advantage not available to true small community public schools.

If that is not acceptable to the private school, they should withdrawn athletically just as they have done academically.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: cointoss on April 30, 2009, 11:49:51 am
What happens when these kids get to the real world. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Take some repsonsibility and coach these kids instead of trying to reduce the competition by complaining that you got beat by to many points. What did Shiloh do that was not within the rules? If you have something let it be known. Could it be that Shiloh is better coached? The kids work harder? If you cannot compete you might want to think of giving up football at your school and concentrate on education ot maybe find another Coach.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 11:50:54 am
Quote from: hoopsin53 on April 30, 2009, 11:24:20 am
this doesn't just affect football, but all sports.  i want one person from the public schools to defend guy-perkins.  they won a state championship this year with transfers from all over. every year they have been there has been with transfers.  every year they try to embarrass people.  i just don't get why people overlook public schools like this if they are going to complain about private schools.  people say that private schools use facilities to draw kids too. 

transfers EVERY season? check.
running the score up? check.
great facility? check.

they are definitely not the only public school that has a whole new crew from transfers every year either.  people from quitman on here talking about unfair playing grounds.  they are 5 miles from guy!  the things private schools get accused of is guy-perkins' average year.  explanation anyone?
No one enforces the rules,no one checks. Its basically depending on schools too police themselves!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 11:52:28 am
Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 11:46:44 am
In other words, if you draw the bulk of your students for a particular district, that's where you should play regardless of enrollment since cherry picking out of a larger pool of potential athletes is an advantage not available to true small community public schools.

Of course, "cherry picking" is against the rules already in place.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 12:04:49 pm
Quote from: Oldman on April 30, 2009, 09:07:33 am
i heard a rumor this morning that shiloh has been invited to join the big 12.

Big 12 works from a geographic standpoint but the philosophy is all wrong.  I'd think they'd be a better fit in the WAC or Conference USA.  SC is more of a mid-major and with that passing mentality they have they might have a tough go in the Big 12. ;D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 12:08:29 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on April 30, 2009, 11:52:28 am
Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 11:46:44 am
In other words, if you draw the bulk of your students for a particular district, that's where you should play regardless of enrollment since cherry picking out of a larger pool of potential athletes is an advantage not available to true small community public schools.

Of course, "cherry picking" is against the rules already in place.

How?

If a kid lives within 25 miles of the private school and can "tote the note,"  he's fair game.  In SC's case, this probable covers multiple public school districts some of those being some of the largest in the state.

And concerning your bringing Junction City into this thread, the population density and demographics are vastly different inside a 25 mile radius of Shiloh than inside a 9 mile radius of Junction City.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: hoopsin53 on April 30, 2009, 12:09:02 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 11:50:54 am<br />
Quote from: hoopsin53 on April 30, 2009, 11:24:20 am<br />this doesn't just affect football, but all sports.  i want one person from the public schools to defend guy-perkins.  they won a state championship this year with transfers from all over. every year they have been there has been with transfers.  every year they try to embarrass people.  i just don't get why people overlook public schools like this if they are going to complain about private schools.  people say that private schools use facilities to draw kids too.  <br /><br />transfers EVERY season? check.<br />running the score up? check.<br />great facility? check.<br /><br />they are definitely not the only public school that has a whole new crew from transfers every year either.  people from quitman on here talking about unfair playing grounds.  they are 5 miles from guy!  the things private schools get accused of is guy-perkins' average year.  explanation anyone?<br />
<br />No one enforces the rules,no one checks. Its basically depending on schools too police themselves!<br />

that's fine.  but why do you lump all private schools together and slam them?  why do you not complain about your neighbor? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 12:21:34 pm
Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 12:08:29 pm
And concerning your bringing Junction City into this thread, the population density and demographics are vastly different inside a 25 mile radius of Shiloh than inside a 9 mile radius of Junction City.

I brought Junction City in because of the talk about score differential.

Junction City could be on the outskirts of a city of 500,000 people for all I care.  If they have 150 kids in their school, they should still be 2A.  The population argument is completely overblown.  Just look at the public schools near LR.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 12:30:53 pm
Doesn't the transfer rule require a kid to sit out for a year if he transfers from a public school to a private school after his 10th grade year?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 12:51:19 pm
Yes,unless the family makes a legit. move into the district. That goes for any transfer,pub. to pub, or pub. to private. But who actually checks this stuff out,if they have enough money they just rent an apt or trailer within the dist., or they get a po box address,or they move in with an uncle. So many ways too get around the rules.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: rpr on April 30, 2009, 12:53:19 pm
Fountain Lake 70 - Lavaca 0; 2008 AAA Semifinals; Outrage please?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 01:02:55 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on April 30, 2009, 12:21:34 pm
Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 12:08:29 pm
And concerning your bringing Junction City into this thread, the population density and demographics are vastly different inside a 25 mile radius of Shiloh than inside a 9 mile radius of Junction City.

I brought Junction City in because of the talk about score differential.

Junction City could be on the outskirts of a city of 500,000 people for all I care.  If they have 150 kids in their school, they should still be 2A.  The population argument is completely overblown.  Just look at the public schools near LR.

The HA in HA_Fan 2.0™ wouldn't stand for Harding Academy now would it?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 01:22:28 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 12:51:19 pm
Yes,unless the family makes a legit. move into the district. That goes for any transfer,pub. to pub, or pub. to private. But who actually checks this stuff out,if they have enough money they just rent an apt or trailer within the dist., or they get a po box address,or they move in with an uncle. So many ways too get around the rules.

Sounds like avoidance of the transfer rules could be an issue across the board for public and private.  Would the rule prevent a Shiloh player from transferring to one of the other NWA teams? 

Looking at the Shiloh scores posted earlier, why was Shiloh able to get the point spreads it did against Lonoke, Osceola, and Dollarway.  Those were all 4A powerhouses last year and they had big, fast, strong athletes.  Were Shiloh's athletes that much better, and if so, why? 

Did anybody see the Clarksville/Shiloh Game?  I understand Clarksville fell into Murphy's Law on that one.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: sportime on April 30, 2009, 01:31:44 pm
[


What was that guy's name who sued a few years ago that had a son playing at Baptist?

I'm thinking it was Gary something.

Holt
[/quote]
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 01:32:36 pm
Another question.  Today's news article about the private school proposal says it applies to schools that offer need based financial aid.  Is that really what it says?  Does anyone have a copy of the actual proposal you could post?  If it really says that, what is the purpose?  Are the private schools offering some version of a football scholarship? 

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: transplant on April 30, 2009, 01:36:04 pm
They offer tuition assistance to families that fall below a certain income level.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on April 30, 2009, 01:44:32 pm
Quote from: transplant on April 30, 2009, 01:36:04 pm
They offer tuition assistance to families that fall below a certain income level.

Sounds like a loop hole, the boosters could get together toss certain families money to attend, wala no more assistance given. ergo they are right back in the ranks with public schools.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 01:47:20 pm
Quote from: Made on April 30, 2009, 01:44:32 pm
Quote from: transplant on April 30, 2009, 01:36:04 pm
They offer tuition assistance to families that fall below a certain income level.

Sounds like a loop hole, the boosters could get together toss certain families money to attend, wala no more assistance given. ergo they are right back in the ranks with public schools.



That is specifically forbidden. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 02:01:17 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 12:51:19 pm
So many ways too get around the rules.

So many assumptions that getting around the rules is the explanation for private school success.

Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 01:02:55 pm
The HA in HA_Fan 2.0™ wouldn't stand for Harding Academy now would it?

It does.

Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 01:32:36 pm
Are the private schools offering some version of a football scholarship? 

No.  Some private schools offer financial aid based on income.  Eligibility is decided by an outside organization (per AAA rules) that has no idea whether the student is a running back, a clarinet player or a member of the chess club.  It is purely based on income.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 02:07:35 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on April 30, 2009, 02:01:17 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 01:32:36 pm
Are the private schools offering some version of a football scholarship? 
No.  Some private schools offer financial aid based on income.  Eligibility is decided by an outside organization (per AAA rules) that has no idea whether the student is a running back, a clarinet player or a member of the chess club.  It is purely based on income.


On a complete tangent, are the financial aid dollars usually the result of alumni or corporate gifts or is there some current student fee assessment specifically for that purpose? 

Not trying to start anything, just honestly curious if its real money being provided or some type of tuition discount.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 02:12:00 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on April 30, 2009, 02:01:17 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 12:51:19 pm
So many ways too get around the rules.

So many assumptions that getting around the rules is the explanation for private school success.

Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 01:02:55 pm
The HA in HA_Fan 2.0™ wouldn't stand for Harding Academy now would it?

It does.

Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 01:32:36 pm
Are the private schools offering some version of a football scholarship? 

No.  Some private schools offer financial aid based on income.  Eligibility is decided by an outside organization (per AAA rules) that has no idea whether the student is a running back, a clarinet player or a member of the chess club.  It is purely based on income.

Sounds similar to the free lunch program.  If it's that objective and neutral, why are they using it as a qualifier for a separate playoff system?  Why not just say all private schools are in a separate playoff division whether they offer need based tuition assistance or not.  Must be some legal reason.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 02:16:20 pm
Quote from: bleudog on April 30, 2009, 02:07:35 pm
On a complete tangent, are the financial aid dollars usually the result of alumni or corporate gifts or is there some current student fee assessment specifically for that purpose? 

Not trying to start anything, just honestly curious if its real money being provided or some type of tuition discount.

I think it's just a tuition discount.  That being said, I would guess that the amount charged for tuition for all students takes that into account.  If no one got a discount, then everyone's tuition would probably be a little lower.

Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 02:12:00 pm
Sounds similar to the free lunch program.  If it's that objective and neutral, why are they using it as a qualifier for a separate playoff system?  Why not just say all private schools are in a separate playoff division whether they offer need based tuition assistance or not.  Must be some legal reason.

I think it's based entirely on the assumption that private schools are finding ways to get the money to athletes.  However, there is already a check and balance in place to make sure that doesn't happen.  That's why a third party organization is used.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 02:41:01 pm
In some schools, it is just like collegiate financial assistance.  Families, alumni, students donate money into a "scholarship fund".  I think a $100,000 gift is considered 1 scholarship.  That money is invested and a certain amount is available each year for assistance.

So all a well heeled supporter would get is public notice that he had donated a Scholarship and each year, without him knowing who, 3 partial Financial Aid package would be granted by and out of state group who only see the Financial application.

The school needs and expects $6000 (or whatever) per student, so that amount of money is actually transferred to the operating funds...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 02:41:54 pm
To answer a repeated question, Shiloh is perfectly centered for the 25 mile rule from their standpoint.

To the south:  they can get to West Fork (21.5 miles)
To the north: they can get to Bentonville(16.6 miles)
To the west: they can get to Prairie Grove(21.6 miles)
To the east: they can get to Elkins(19.1 Miles)

Note:  All of the miles listed are from high school to high school.

Of all the schools that play football in NWA the only two districts out of their reach are Lincoln and Berryville.  But someone living in between the two might in fact be close enough.

As for Fayetteville voting against the proposal, that falls in line with their trend to not be boat rockers.  They tend to be more tolerant than most districts in many respects as they were with the Springdale split mid-cycle.  Plus don't undervalue the influence of the 1st Baptist Church of Springdale Inc. on it's parishioners.

For those of you on all the money angles, Shiloh is not bound to disclose what they pay coaches and spend on their program.  That's their right as a private, but it surely matters if their conference competitors have to disclose such info.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 02:45:47 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 10:32:57 am
Didn't AAA implement a geographic limit last year.  How does that affect the situation, and how long will it take to have an impact?

Seems like Shiloh would have some pretty stiff competition for students in NWA where you have some of the best football and academic programs in the state.  If a football family moves into NWA, they are looking at 2007 7A state champ Fayetteville, a very successful Rogers, 2007 7-A runner-up and 2008 SE Select champ Harber, Springdale with all its championship tradition, and the opportunity to play for Barry Lunney at 2008 State champ Bentonville.  All those schools also have superior facilities to Shiloh.  I don't know if adding another private school to the mix would do much if the primary motivation is football or academics.  If decisions are motivated by other things, maybe it would.

You are citing 7A schools as their competitors for incoming athletes?  ummmm  So it stands to reason those that are looking and don't go to FHS, HBHS, BHS or RHS will end up at Shiloh.

(clears throat)  That would be the point.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RocketDad on April 30, 2009, 02:49:26 pm
From an admitted 'Private School' Grad and Dad...

Maybe the Berryville folks should have proposed raising the 'Private School Multiplier' from 1.75 to 2.5 for schools that consistently outscore (or 'Mercy Rule') their conference opponents... That would move SC out of Berryville's conference, making them someone else's problem.

Talk about using an atomic bomb to kill a mosquito!

Not enough time or space to vent my spleen about 'recruiting accusations' here, but I'm tired of hearing folks cry about it when they get beat by SC, CAC, PA or others.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 03:02:31 pm
Quote from: RocketDad on April 30, 2009, 02:49:26 pm
From an admitted 'Private School' Grad and Dad...

Maybe the Berryville folks should have proposed raising the 'Private School Multiplier' from 1.75 to 2.5 for schools that consistently outscore (or 'Mercy Rule') their conference opponents... That would move SC out of Berryville's conference, making them someone else's problem.

Talk about using an atomic bomb to kill a mosquito!

Not enough time or space to vent my spleen about 'recruiting accusations' here, but I'm tired of hearing folks cry about it when they get beat by SC, CAC, PA or others.
If AAA would grow a set and classify the private schools by performance we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: passion4thegame on April 30, 2009, 03:04:33 pm
Did this proposal pass?  I am hearing conflicting stories..will shiloh be in the 1-4a next year...what has actually happened?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 03:05:20 pm
http://nwanews.com/adg/Sports/258470/
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: passion4thegame on April 30, 2009, 03:06:28 pm
What has actually happened?  Is Shiloh in the 1-4a next year?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 03:07:07 pm
TBD
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: attaboy on April 30, 2009, 03:14:27 pm
I have always felt....anyone who is to good attend a public school, for what ever reason, is then also to good to play with the public school.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 03:28:52 pm
Knowing that shallow people judge and promote employees based in part on their proficiency in English, some parents feel that the small size of private school classes allows the teachers more time to correct grammar errors.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 30, 2009, 03:32:35 pm
johnharrison, you are surely not attempting to mock someone else's grammar or spelling mistakes...   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on April 30, 2009, 04:28:26 pm
Quote from: attaboy on April 30, 2009, 03:14:27 pm
I have always felt....anyone who is to good attend a public school, for what ever reason, is then also to good to play with the public school.

While I'm sure there are a handful of parents at every private school with the attitude that they are too good for public schools, the vast majority of parents send their kids to private schools for these reasons:

1. Academics - In LR especially this is the overwhelming reason why. I can't speak for other private schools' numbers, but PA's graduation rate is basically 100%, they send kids to prestigious schools across the country, etc.
2. Safety - I mentor kids from public schools all over central Arkansas and cannot believe some of the horror stories of fights and lock downs from weapons that occur on a regular basis. I don't recall ever seeing a fight at school in my 13 years at PA.
3. Religious Atmosphere - PA doesn't fit here obviously, but the rest of the private schools in the state do.

I don't see how you can fault parents for wanting their kids to get a great education in a safe environment and possibly a religious environment.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 04:33:34 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 02:45:47 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 10:32:57 am
Didn't AAA implement a geographic limit last year.  How does that affect the situation, and how long will it take to have an impact?

Seems like Shiloh would have some pretty stiff competition for students in NWA where you have some of the best football and academic programs in the state.  If a football family moves into NWA, they are looking at 2007 7A state champ Fayetteville, a very successful Rogers, 2007 7-A runner-up and 2008 SE Select champ Harber, Springdale with all its championship tradition, and the opportunity to play for Barry Lunney at 2008 State champ Bentonville.  All those schools also have superior facilities to Shiloh.  I don't know if adding another private school to the mix would do much if the primary motivation is football or academics.  If decisions are motivated by other things, maybe it would.

You are citing 7A schools as their competitors for incoming athletes?  ummmm  So it stands to reason those that are looking and don't go to FHS, HBHS, BHS or RHS will end up at Shiloh.

(clears throat)  That would be the point.


Just because a kid lives in NWA doesn't mean he has 7A talent, but assuming he does, he doesn't nesessarily choose Shiloh over Bentonville if the decision is motivated only by football.  The only school in Arkansas that has better facilities than Bentonville is the U of A, plus you get to play for the defending 7A champ coached by Barry Lunney. 

Kids who don't want to play 7A might also end up at Farmington, Gravette, or Prairie Grove also.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: rammer on April 30, 2009, 04:40:53 pm
 It would make more sence to me for the AAA to just kick the private schools out completely rather than let them compete in the regular season and not the playoffs. Arkansas high school sports will become just like the NCAA in football, no true champion.

If the public schools can't compete with the private schools then I guess they shouldn't be playing each other. This will water down the overall athletic competetiveness in the state of Arkansas.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: DT on April 30, 2009, 04:50:30 pm
Quote from: Agent of Chaos on April 25, 2009, 08:42:28 pm
Quote from: Ty on April 25, 2009, 11:41:35 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 25, 2009, 10:14:09 am
Only 12 of the 21 private schools field football teams, yet almost single handedly Shiloh has spawned a movement to ban private schools from high school playoffs through consistent flaunting their skills and needless embarrassing their opponents.
And only a few have had continued success, primarily Shiloh, CAC, and Pulaski Academy.

Look at their location. That's the key. And their Alumni. Money + Kids who can legally transfer=bam bam.

I was fortunate to play on PA's first football state championship team. I can tell you that alumni and money were not the keys to our success. We didn't go out and recruit players or have big new transfers every year. The majority of the kids on our team had been at PA since elementary school or earlier and lived within a few miles of the school.

I can't speak for other private schools and their success, but for you to imply that my teammates and I didn't work our tails off for years to achieve our goals just like kids at public schools around the state is a slap in the face.

Shiloh obviously had some lopsided victories last year, but you can't tell me public school power houses don't experience the same thing, especially at lower levels. One poster even pointed out that Junction City's average margin of victory last year was greater than Shiloh's. Fountain Lake had a 70-0 victory late in the playoffs last year, but I do not see proposals from teams they play calling for them to be banned because they can't compete.

You can count on one hand the private schools in the state who are consistently competitive for state titles. If all private schools in the state have such an unfair advantage, then why are so many of these schools flat out awful in athletics? Did the thought ever cross anyone's mind that these schools have created a winning tradition?

When the start of each season begins, you can name several public school teams in each class that are expected to compete for a title nearly ever year. The same can be said of these handful of private schools. However, while these elite public schools are celebrated, the private schools are shunned and now possibly banned from competing.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: AAAspectator on April 30, 2009, 04:51:07 pm
I think the title should be "Thanks Shiloh Football", I happen to like their basketball coaches
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 05:02:37 pm
Quote from: bobcat on April 30, 2009, 03:32:35 pm
johnharrison, you are surely not attempting to mock someone else's grammar or spelling mistakes...   

some Times eye due bud aye make sum two.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 05:04:17 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on April 30, 2009, 03:02:31 pm
If AAA would grow a set and classify the private schools by performance we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Why stop with the private schools?

Quote from: attaboy on April 30, 2009, 03:14:27 pm
I have always felt....anyone who is to good attend a public school, for what ever reason, is then also to good to play with the public school.

Interesting.  I personally don't know a single person who is too good to attend a public school.  It's good to see this whole thing is grounded in fact rather than irrational hyperbole.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 30, 2009, 05:08:28 pm
HA_, could you please tone down the well-developed vocabulary? Some of us attended public schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 05:19:50 pm
Quote from: DT on April 30, 2009, 04:28:26 pm
Quote from: attaboy on April 30, 2009, 03:14:27 pm
I have always felt....anyone who is to good attend a public school, for what ever reason, is then also to good to play with the public school.

While I'm sure there are a handful of parents at every private school with the attitude that they are too good for public schools, the vast majority of parents send their kids to private schools for these reasons:

1. Academics - In LR especially this is the overwhelming reason why. I can't speak for other private schools' numbers, but PA's graduation rate is basically 100%, they send kids to prestigious schools across the country, etc.
2. Safety - I mentor kids from public schools all over central Arkansas and cannot believe some of the horror stories of fights and lock downs from weapons that occur on a regular basis. I don't recall ever seeing a fight at school in my 13 years at PA.
3. Religious Atmosphere - PA doesn't fit here obviously, but the rest of the private schools in the state do.

I don't see how you can fault parents for wanting their kids to get a great education in a safe environment and possibly a religious environment.
While the reasons for private schools are legit, I fail to see the translation to seperate themselves and them want to go back and play against what they choose to seperate themselves from in the first place.

Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 04:33:34 pm
Kids who don't want to play 7A might also end up at Farmington, Gravette, or Prairie Grove also.
You are the one that opened that door by stating they could choose from those particular schools.  Not me.  You can't come back and argue against yourself now.

In fact, it's and even bigger advantage for those players 'on the fringe' that choose Shiloh.

I notice no one has responded to the geographicaly data I provided a few pages back.  The rule doesn't help the balance things at all.  25 miles around Subiaco vs. Shiloh's radius is the entire point. 

In LR, there a bunch of schools that divy up that radius.  In NWA were the new money dictates so many things, there's just the one.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 05:20:08 pm
Quote from: bobcat on April 30, 2009, 05:08:28 pm
HA_, could you please tone down the well-developed vocabulary? Some of us attended public schools.

I'll try to use 1.75 times less letters.  :D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on April 30, 2009, 05:22:20 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 05:19:50 pm
While the reasons for private schools are legit, I fail to see the translation to seperate themselves and them want to go back and play against what they choose to seperate themselves from in the first place.

For one thing, that assumes that choosing private schools is about going away from something rather than going towards something.  The private school people I know have no ill will towards the public schools. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on April 30, 2009, 05:27:56 pm
QF, the separation is about academics, safety, and environment and not athletics.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 05:40:41 pm
While all true, you don't retain the option to compete with those schools.  It's a two-way street.  You have to want to play them and they have to want to play you.  Don't expect to seperate yourselves and expect the rest to stay the same.

BTW, in case you don't know I'm not anti-private school.  But right now there's a bear in the kitchen and something will happen to change that.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on April 30, 2009, 05:49:53 pm
So basically you are forcing parents to choose between academics and safety or the opportunity to play sports. You do realize that a lot of private schools are going to shut down athletic teams and possibly programs because of this, right?

Why is it asking too much to be able to get a great education in a safe environment and have the opportunity to play sports and compete against everybody else? You can get both in NWA at public schools, but apparently not in LR when this passes.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 05:59:26 pm
Quote from: DT on April 30, 2009, 05:49:53 pm
So basically you are forcing parents to choose between academics and safety or the opportunity to play sports. You do realize that a lot of private schools are going to shut down athletic teams and possibly programs because of this, right?

Why is it asking too much to be able to get a great education in a safe environment and have the opportunity to play sports and compete against everybody else? You can get both in NWA at public schools, but apparently not in LR when this passes.

Not sure at all this is true (and no one would really care).  The sports participation rate in private schools far outstrips that of public schools.

In LR you could a conference of AB, ECS, Lutheran (if it survives) Conway St Joe, PB St. Joe, Abundant Life.  Might have to play everyone twice, but it could be done.  As long as you are going to get your bud beat, better to do it close to home and get it over with!

Fact is though, that I think many of the public schools like having the added competition in tennis, golf, wrestling, volley ball, track, soccer, Quiz Bowl, band, choir, and chess club.

I imagine Bauxite was ecstatic when they beat the private schools to win Quiz Bowl.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on April 30, 2009, 06:05:49 pm
The participation rate is higher because of increase parental involvement. They get the parents involved early and keep at it. At a college prep institution they realize that extracurricular activities help you out when being admitted to college.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of good parents that stay involved with what their kids do at public schools, just that at a lot of private schools it is required. I know it was for my parents from the moment I started going to PA in kindergarten.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 06:09:56 pm
Quote from: DT on April 30, 2009, 05:49:53 pm
So basically you are forcing parents to choose between academics and safety or the opportunity to play sports. You do realize that a lot of private schools are going to shut down athletic teams and possibly programs because of this, right?

Why is it asking too much to be able to get a great education in a safe environment and have the opportunity to play sports and compete against everybody else? You can get both in NWA at public schools, but apparently not in LR when this passes.
No.  If athletics are so important to them they can play other private schools in leagues and/or non-conf games against them by mutual agreement.  Or if they are set on playing the publics then you're at their mercy as to placement.

Private schools don't have rights that supercede publics.  If you are going to do things differently then you have no right to dictate to those you left behind. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 06:12:51 pm
Quote from: DT on April 30, 2009, 06:05:49 pm
The participation rate is higher because of increase parental involvement. They get the parents involved early and keep at it. At a college prep institution they realize that extracurricular activities help you out when being admitted to college.
That of course is a big plus to the private school system.  But you can't brag about it and then expect others with that support to welcome you with open arms.  Especially when those are the very parents they miss the most in the public system.  Times 2 for small ones with less the choose from.

Naturally more of a percentage of parents at privates are more involved.  They show that by placing their kids in private schools from the get go.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: stina_ar on April 30, 2009, 06:34:20 pm
I was surprised when I read that it was Berryville moreso than Gentry complaining. Then I remembered that both teams lose so often that Gentry has come to accept it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 06:40:48 pm
Then strap one on and go for a rule that is even.  Magnet schools cannot have players outside their home district.  No M to M transfers.
If you move less than 25 miles (Dierks to Nashville, Conway to Guy Perkin,) then you must sit out for one entire year.

Private schools must have a "district" that is equivalent in size to the average size of that of other teams in their conference.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 06:41:40 pm
ouch!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on April 30, 2009, 06:43:00 pm
What do you do if you are the parent of a child who has been in a private school since they were young and they start to show the kind of talent and potential to be a college athlete? Do you keep them in the private school at the risk of missing out on scholarship offers or put them in a public school where the competition is better?

Jonathan Luigs didn't get an offer from the Hogs until the semifinals of his senior year (ironically a game against Shiloh) because the coaches were concerned with the level of competition he was playing against.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 06:50:14 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 05:19:50 pm
Quote from: DT on April 30, 2009, 04:28:26 pm
Quote from: attaboy on April 30, 2009, 03:14:27 pm
I have always felt....anyone who is to good attend a public school, for what ever reason, is then also to good to play with the public school.

While I'm sure there are a handful of parents at every private school with the attitude that they are too good for public schools, the vast majority of parents send their kids to private schools for these reasons:

1. Academics - In LR especially this is the overwhelming reason why. I can't speak for other private schools' numbers, but PA's graduation rate is basically 100%, they send kids to prestigious schools across the country, etc.
2. Safety - I mentor kids from public schools all over central Arkansas and cannot believe some of the horror stories of fights and lock downs from weapons that occur on a regular basis. I don't recall ever seeing a fight at school in my 13 years at PA.
3. Religious Atmosphere - PA doesn't fit here obviously, but the rest of the private schools in the state do.

I don't see how you can fault parents for wanting their kids to get a great education in a safe environment and possibly a religious environment.
While the reasons for private schools are legit, I fail to see the translation to seperate themselves and them want to go back and play against what they choose to seperate themselves from in the first place.

Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 04:33:34 pm
Kids who don't want to play 7A might also end up at Farmington, Gravette, or Prairie Grove also.
You are the one that opened that door by stating they could choose from those particular schools.  Not me.  You can't come back and argue against yourself now.

In fact, it's and even bigger advantage for those players 'on the fringe' that choose Shiloh.

I notice no one has responded to the geographicaly data I provided a few pages back.  The rule doesn't help the balance things at all.  25 miles around Subiaco vs. Shiloh's radius is the entire point. 

In LR, there a bunch of schools that divy up that radius.  In NWA were the new money dictates so many things, there's just the one.

I think its just a fact that some very talented NWA kids choose to play for 4A teams other than Shiloh.  In 2007, a young man with 7A/D1 talent moved into NWA and chose to play for Farmington.  Of course, at that time Shiloh was 3A and Farmington was 4A.  Take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCtaEZrTy8M&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCtaEZrTy8M&feature=related)

As for the 25 mile radius, there may be more people within Shiloh's radius (just an assumption because I don't know the actual numbers) than many 4A schools have in their districts, but those people within Shiloh's radius are also served by at least five public school districts that I believe are among the best in Arkansas both from an academic and athletic perspective.  That may be a different situation from the Little Rock metro area.  Also, a kid has to transfer before his 10th grade year or he sits out. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RD™ on April 30, 2009, 06:51:45 pm
Here is my thoughts:

1. If this don't pass and get the 2/3rd vote, don't moron about it, until you asked your Athletic Director how they voted.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 30, 2009, 06:55:18 pm
Don't moron about it.     
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RD™ on April 30, 2009, 06:57:00 pm
I have one comment to add to this.

Let's say private schools didn't have football. Obviously the most popular sport involved in this argument.

Would we even be having this discussion?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 07:02:42 pm
no
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RD™ on April 30, 2009, 07:05:03 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 07:02:42 pm
no
Exactly. If this proposal goes through it will destroy Arkansas High School Sports.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 08:21:33 pm
That's a huge overstatement.

People can take their lumps if they are administered gracefully.  Most private schools have that grace.

But the one(s) that don't simply make things untolerable.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:07:27 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has has a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?  Here's an article that suggests the system Malzahn perfected at Shiloh is responsible for putting Arkansas high school football back on the map nationally as well giving many young men the opportunity to play in a system that resulted in them having the opportunity to play college football, including some now playing at the U of A.  Is there any merit to this or is the author mistaken?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:11:03 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has had a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?  Here's an article that suggests the system Malzahn perfected at Shiloh is responsible for putting Arkansas high school football back on the map nationally as well giving many young men the opportunity to play in a system that resulted in them having the opportunity to play college football, including several now playing at the U of A.  Is there any merit to this or is the author mistaken?

http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108 (http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108)
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:12:17 pm
Here's the link to the article.

http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108 (http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Love Handle on April 30, 2009, 09:18:13 pm
Would private schools still play up one class during the regular season? 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 09:44:20 pm
Did the Bulletin passed around at FBCofS this week contain references about this and other threads?

Why such a need for propaganda that meant nothing to the issue at hand?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Ty on April 30, 2009, 09:47:27 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:07:27 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has has a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?  Here's an article that suggests the system Malzahn perfected at Shiloh is responsible for putting Arkansas high school football back on the map nationally as well giving many young men the opportunity to play in a system that resulted in them having the opportunity to play college football, including some now playing at the U of A.  Is there any merit to this or is the author mistaken?
The author has tons of merit of merit.

First and foremost, the Shiloh program that Josh Floyd has created is not like the program that existed under Malzahn.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: passion4thegame on April 30, 2009, 09:48:13 pm
Doesn't this also just pertain to private schools that offer financial aid to students.   How many football players on scholarship does Shiloh have and will it be that easy to track?  Maybe they just lose those kids???
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on April 30, 2009, 09:51:22 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:11:03 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has had a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?  Here's an article that suggests the system Malzahn perfected at Shiloh is responsible for putting Arkansas high school football back on the map nationally as well giving many young men the opportunity to play in a system that resulted in them having the opportunity to play college football, including several now playing at the U of A.  Is there any merit to this or is the author mistaken?

http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108 (http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108)
Gus invented football?  This again?

We are talking about right here and right now about the competitive balance of high school football.  What some coach did that was there 5+ years ago has nothing to do with TODAY.

Tell me something, is that link something you people at FBCS keep handy as answers to everything?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 10:44:54 pm
Quote from: QF© on April 30, 2009, 09:51:22 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:11:03 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has had a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?  Here's an article that suggests the system Malzahn perfected at Shiloh is responsible for putting Arkansas high school football back on the map nationally as well giving many young men the opportunity to play in a system that resulted in them having the opportunity to play college football, including several now playing at the U of A.  Is there any merit to this or is the author mistaken?

http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108 (http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108)
Gus invented football?  This again?

We are talking about right here and right now about the competitive balance of high school football.  What some coach did that was there 5+ years ago has nothing to do with TODAY.

Tell me something, is that link something you people at FBCS keep handy as answers to everything?


If the article is true, it has a lot to do with today and tomorrow.  If Shiloh and other private schools are innovators that push improvement in the entire Arkansas high school football system, and you remove those innovators from the system, what happens to the overall quality of the system going forward?  I don't know the whole history of how the spread and no-huddle developed in Arkansas, but if the article is true, a lot of public schools, as well as individual players, have benefitted greatly and will continue to benefit from innovations that originated at Shiloh and continue at multiple private schools today.  Seems like Harber under Chris Wood, Springdale, and smaller classification schools like Lonoke, Clarksville, Glen Rose and others have benefitted.  There are several very successful and innovative coaches in the public school system, but seems like you run a high risk of degrading the overall quality of the system if you throw out some of the most successful programs in the state. 

The competitive balance shifts from time to time.  It is not uncommon for teams to have mulit-year championship runs.  For example Greenwood, Nashville, Texarkana, Dollarway, Barton and Little Rock Central.  Things appears to be in Shiloh's favor for the next year or two.  After that, who knows?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on April 30, 2009, 10:53:50 pm
It's about dang time.. Some of us have pushed for this to happen for the last 25 years..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 10:58:20 pm
Do you think Subiaco, Arkansas Baptist or Lutheran will care.

A 12 - 0 Shiloh will show up enmass at the Nashville Warren final, and yell, "Chicken!"

Half the stands will realize they are right.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on April 30, 2009, 11:16:53 pm
The other half will ignore them.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 11:19:43 pm
and even halft the team will look up and say, "We could beat those guys"  but we will never know.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 01, 2009, 06:12:45 am
If y'all think private schools are the only ones that "recruit" or "cherry pick" the best athletes you need to step back and take a look.  In the Central Ark metro area there is a "M to M" transfer where a minority student from one school can transfer to another.  Then there are the "inner-district" transfers and magnet schools.  Isn't that the same thing?  Students that normally wouldn't be at one school going to another for "X" reason?  Don't think for one minute athletics don't play a role in this.  My advice to the cry babies at Berryville would be instead of punishing or trying to punish Shiloh why don't you try to get better.  Why is it that Western Ark has more whiners than the other parts of the state?  Siloam Springs has a chance of moving into 6A, they don't want to travel so 6 and 7A have to combine now.  Berryville is tired of getting crushed by SC so all private schools are punished. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 01, 2009, 06:14:33 am
If y'all think private schools are the only ones that "recruit" or "cherry pick" the best athletes you need to step back and take a look.  In the Central Ark metro area there is a "M to M" transfer where a minority student from one school can transfer to another.  Then there are the "inner-district" transfers and magnet schools.  Isn't that the same thing?  Students that normally wouldn't be at one school going to another for "X" reason?  Don't think for one minute athletics don't play a role in this.  My advice to the cry babies at Berryville would be instead of punishing or trying to punish Shiloh why don't you try to get better.  Why is it that Western Ark has more whiners than the other parts of the state?  Siloam Springs has a chance of moving into 6A, they don't want to travel so 6 and 7A have to combine now.  Berryville is tired of getting crushed by SC so all private schools are punished.   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: PGTIGERS09 on May 01, 2009, 07:03:42 am
Quote from: johnharrison on April 30, 2009, 10:58:20 pm
Do you think Subiaco, Arkansas Baptist or Lutheran will care.

A 12 - 0 Shiloh will show up enmass at the Nashville Warren final, and yell, "Chicken!"

Half the stands will realize they are right.

i think you are right .. I can see that happening with the Christian people.. 84-14 in the playoffs showed me what to expect.   Christian = Christ like.. 84-14?  still throwing in the 4th quarter..  Yeah i can see them showing up and taunting other teams.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: c hog on May 01, 2009, 08:31:48 am
   We could start a new rule and say all games in 4a end in a tie and the kids could go get their team drink or if a private school wins a game by more than 7 points you are banned from the AAA for life.  That would make alot of people on this board happy.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 08:34:19 am
::)

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 01, 2009, 08:37:09 am
Okay. Obviously Berryville is not the only team complaining. Harrison and Berryville were the two who spoke up for the rest. I am not supporting this proposition. Just pointing that out. Move Shiloh up to 7A and let them see what the big schools think.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 01, 2009, 09:22:36 am
Quote from: bobcat on May 01, 2009, 08:37:09 am
Okay. Obviously Berryville is not the only team complaining. Harrison and Berryville were the two who spoke up for the rest. I am not supporting this proposition. Just pointing that out. Move Shiloh up to 7A and let them see what the big schools think.

right now SC is 3A "size" playing in 4A thanks to the +1 multiplier.  I say make the multiplier +2 which would basically move every private school up another class.  Shiloh in 5A, LRC, CAC, PA in 6A
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 01, 2009, 09:26:07 am
How about increasing the multiplier yet again.  Basically putting SC in 5A...... LRC, PA, CAC, would be in 6A (obtw any of those three would challenge for the championship in 6A)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 am
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:11:03 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has had a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?
You are kidding, right?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 09:41:52 am
St. Joe and Lutheran in 4A - OUCH!

(If I remember write, SC is actually just a handful of students away from being a true 2A.  One of the very smallest 3A teams
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 09:46:10 am
Yes, you are right.  They would be the one of the smallest 3A school but its funny how they can find dang near 50 players to dress out for football.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RocketDad on May 01, 2009, 09:55:49 am

right now SC is 3A "size" playing in 4A thanks to the +1 multiplier.  I say make the multiplier +2 which would basically move every private school up another class.  Shiloh in 5A, LRC, CAC, PA in 6A
[/quote]

Catholic will be all alone in the 8A!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 01, 2009, 09:58:46 am
Quote from: RocketDad on May 01, 2009, 09:55:49 am

right now SC is 3A "size" playing in 4A thanks to the +1 multiplier.  I say make the multiplier +2 which would basically move every private school up another class.  Shiloh in 5A, LRC, CAC, PA in 6A

Catholic will be all alone in the 8A!
[/quote]

yep, something like that.........
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Love Handle on May 01, 2009, 10:03:23 am
Hey RocketDad, how is this being perceived at Catholic?  I can't imagine they are happy about it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RocketDad on May 01, 2009, 10:47:18 am
Quote from: Love Handle on May 01, 2009, 10:03:23 am
Hey RocketDad, how is this being perceived at Catholic?  I can't imagine they are happy about it.

I'm certainly not the 'official voice' for Catholic High, and I haven't discussed it with the AD or the coaching staff.

The discussion by players and their families is generally that the proposal is stupid, punitive and unnecessary.

Of course, Catholic/MSM are (by far) the smallest enrollment schools in the 7A - thanks to the 1.75 multiplier. Coach Register has re-built the football program into a contender, but we're not dominating our conference (or the West, come playoff time) - so there's no real "move Catholic out of the conference/playoffs" sentiment that we can identify.

If this is a Shiloh problem, then it should be addressed directly with Shiloh! 

I keep reading posts that mention CAC, PA and LR Christian - but Catholic, Christ Lutheran, Episcopal, Arkansas Baptist, St. Joe, Subiaco, and others peacefully co-exist within their conferences, winning some and losing some, without some artificial barrier set up by AAA to protect or punish their successes or failures (other than the multiplier!).

The AAA (and some of you) shouldn't paint all private schools, athletes, coaches or programs with the same brush.

Let the kids play the games.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 11:05:19 am
Quote from: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 09:46:10 am
Yes, you are right.  They would be the one of the smallest 3A school but its funny how they can find dang near 50 players to dress out for football.

Doesn't Bauxite put out a bunch, or is that only when the 9th grade moves up at the end of the season.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: RocketDad on May 01, 2009, 11:14:49 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 11:05:19 am
Quote from: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 09:46:10 am
Yes, you are right.  They would be the one of the smallest 3A school but its funny how they can find dang near 50 players to dress out for football.

Doesn't Bauxite put out a bunch, or is that only when the 9th grade moves up at the end of the season.

If kids that live within the boundaries of the Benton or Bryant School Districts choose to go to Bauxite to get their education and have a chance to play FB (when maybe they couldn't play [start] at Benton or Bryant)... Is that "recruiting"? 

Or is it NOT "recruiting" just because the taxpayers are funding the kids' education?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 11:16:28 am
Quote from: RocketDad on May 01, 2009, 10:47:18 am
Of course, Catholic/MSM are (by far) the smallest enrollment schools in the 7A - thanks to the 1.75 multiplier.
The multiplier has been phased out.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 11:22:57 am
Quote from: RocketDad on May 01, 2009, 11:14:49 am
If kids that live within the boundaries of the Benton or Bryant School Districts choose to go to Bauxite to get their education and have a chance to play FB (when maybe they couldn't play [start] at Benton or Bryant)... Is that "recruiting"? 
Did any member of Bauxite staff seek out this kid and try to convince him to go to Bauxite to play football?  If so, then that would be recruiting to me.   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: eagle1 on May 01, 2009, 11:32:12 am
Move up two classes? Ouch is right. Arkansas Baptist 'enjoyed' two years of being mercy ruled every week in 4A. Just as the multiplier and the one class move up did not impact Shiloh, PA, CAC (the ones targeted), this will not either. They will simply become 'travel teams' and go find people to play. The schools that will be impacted will be the ABs, St Joe's, Conway Christian, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc.

Again, if getting the score run up on you is the issue, why only mention Shiloh. Junction, Fountain Lake, etc do the exact same thing. No one cried about Barton in the '80's and '90's when they were winning every week and winning big with Helena-West Helena kids. If that's not the issue then address the problem and don't punish the ones that are not the cause.

Make no mistake, I completely respect Junction City, Barton, Texarkana, Warren, etc for the hard work on the practice field they put into building these strong programs. I used to have the same respect for Nashville and Harrison until all the multiplier, move ups etc. issues. I played at a public school and if we lost to a private school, we did not whine about, we went back to the weight room and practice field and got bigger, stronger, and faster so that it would not happen again.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: 3cats on May 01, 2009, 11:37:00 am
I can't speak for all private schools, but I hope the other schools look at Harding Academy as being a positive and not a negative in the AAA.  Our kids are taught to compete with passion, and whether win or lose, respect and congratulate your opponent.  I want to win as much as anyone, but I hope that you see christian attitudes from our athletes no matter what the outcome of the game.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 01, 2009, 11:39:36 am
my first post on this board...so as I've read through all of this in the previous 8 pages it seems that the argument or debate is that Shiloh beat Berryville 65-0 in a football game on a Friday night and Shiloh let the 3rd and 4th stringers 'play' football in the 4th quarter and Berryville coach got mad and now the debate has exploded into this.
I've read about all of the advantages that Shiloh has (the reasons they win) and all of the disadvantages that the public schools are faced with (the excuses for their loss).  Having the ability to financially send your kid to a private school does make a kid better at a sport or academics.  Springdale HS is not blessed with a lot of 'rich kids' yet they were able to consistently win year after year...
If Fayetteville and Bentonville HS continue to win each year (they're bigger than their counterparts at Springdale, Rogers, Fort Smith...not sure about Cent Ark schools) is there going to be a move that forces them to build an additional high school so that the teams they beat have a better chance to compete? 
Its kinda' silly really. Shiloh is better at football than Berryville, big deal.  Its probably more important to Shiloh to be good at football than it is at Berryville is my guess.  Trying to move Shiloh out of their conference won't make Berryville any better.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 01, 2009, 11:45:35 am
What Berryville needs are kids who love to play and will work harder after a loss to ensure that it isn't a blowout. This Shiloh issue is not something spawned from a blowout loss last season. It goes much further back and deeper than that. It is NOT a recent development.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 12:32:03 pm
What you you think about a home and home series bewteen Springdale and Gravette.?  Any guesses on the outcome?  Anyone thing it would fun to watch (unless you are a Springdale nut)?

There is NO WAY anyone would consider this.

That's the size difference between Catholic and CAC or LRCA.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: attaboy on May 01, 2009, 12:37:38 pm
put private schools together...let them play...pray....recruit...be safe and be better educated to their little ol' hearts' content. Then maybe both sides will be happy...I know I would!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: jrbballguy on May 01, 2009, 12:50:04 pm
I don't really care what you say or how you slice it when it comes to Shiloh.  I will stick to my arguement that they need to be bumped up to 7A for one main reason...
Look at their location, middle of Springdale where there are already two 7A schools.  If it's true about their 25 mile radius that they can draw from, this would include these cities....
Springdale (7A) x 2
Siloam Springs (5A)
Bentonville (7A)
Rogers (7A) x 2
Fayetteville (7A)
West Fork (4A)
Farmington (4A)
Prairie Grove (4A)
Greenland (3A)
Elkins (3A)
And Watch Out Lincoln, Pea Ridge, Gentry, and Huntsville, all of you are 3 miles or less from the 25 mile boundary. 
Sure they only have 300 students in the whole school, we have all heard that arguement, but when you can field 50 for football, tell me you only belong in the 3A or 4A!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 12:57:01 pm
Quote from: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 am
Quote from: BGx2 on April 30, 2009, 09:11:03 pm
Is it possible that Shiloh has had a positive impact on Arkansas high school football over the last decade?
You are kidding, right?

Believe it or not, it was a serious question.  The article suggests that Shiloh's success with the no-huddle spread offense Malzahn perfected there played a major role in raising the level of Arkansas high school football and created college opportunities for athletes as other teams adopted variations of it. Sometimes article like this are accurate - sometimes they are not.  I would just like some opinions from people knowledgeable about Arkansas football as to whether or not the article is accurate.  It is consistent with my own observations, but I don't know everything about how the spread offense developed over the last 10 years.

Here's the link again if anyone wants to share their knowledge.
http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108 (http://usc.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=995&CID=841108)
 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 01:05:32 pm
Malzahn used an offense that worked at SC and then at Springdale.  To say SC alone made Arkansas High School Football what it is today would not cross my mind.  There are many football programs I would put way ahead of them. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 01:20:00 pm
Quote from: jrbballguy on May 01, 2009, 12:50:04 pm

Sure they only have 300 students in the whole school, we have all heard that arguement, but when you can field 50 for football, tell me you only belong in the 3A or 4A!

Have any idea how many are fielded by another 4A school - Nashville?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 01:29:26 pm
Quote from: jrbballguy on May 01, 2009, 12:50:04 pm
I don't really care what you say or how you slice it when it comes to Shiloh.  I will stick to my arguement that they need to be bumped up to 7A for one main reason...
Look at their location, middle of Springdale where there are already two 7A schools.  If it's true about their 25 mile radius that they can draw from, this would include these cities....
Springdale (7A) x 2
Siloam Springs (5A)
Bentonville (7A)
Rogers (7A) x 2
Fayetteville (7A)
West Fork (4A)
Farmington (4A)
Prairie Grove (4A)
Greenland (3A)
Elkins (3A)
And Watch Out Lincoln, Pea Ridge, Gentry, and Huntsville, all of you are 3 miles or less from the 25 mile boundary. 
Sure they only have 300 students in the whole school, we have all heard that arguement, but when you can field 50 for football, tell me you only belong in the 3A or 4A!

So the issue public schools have is with Shiloh from the sound of it. Why then make a proposal to punish ALL private schools?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: jrbballguy on May 01, 2009, 01:36:41 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 01:20:00 pm
Quote from: jrbballguy on May 01, 2009, 12:50:04 pm

Sure they only have 300 students in the whole school, we have all heard that arguement, but when you can field 50 for football, tell me you only belong in the 3A or 4A!

Have any idea how many are fielded by another 4A school - Nashville?

Sorry, the point of my statement was this...
If you only have 300 students in your entire school and yet have enough athletes to field a 50 man football team, your ratio of student athletes is far different than any other team in the 4A
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 01:41:27 pm
So because the school encourages increased participation in extracurricular activities like athletics, they have an unfair advantage? At PA we were basically required to be involved in something extracurricular because PA is a college prep school and those things look good on a college resume.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 01, 2009, 01:44:19 pm
It cracks me up to read how hard headed some of us are.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 01:46:25 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 01:29:26 pm
Quote from: jrbballguy on May 01, 2009, 12:50:04 pm
I don't really care what you say or how you slice it when it comes to Shiloh.  I will stick to my arguement that they need to be bumped up to 7A for one main reason...
Look at their location, middle of Springdale where there are already two 7A schools.  If it's true about their 25 mile radius that they can draw from, this would include these cities....
Springdale (7A) x 2
Siloam Springs (5A)
Bentonville (7A)
Rogers (7A) x 2
Fayetteville (7A)
West Fork (4A)
Farmington (4A)
Prairie Grove (4A)
Greenland (3A)
Elkins (3A)
And Watch Out Lincoln, Pea Ridge, Gentry, and Huntsville, all of you are 3 miles or less from the 25 mile boundary. 
Sure they only have 300 students in the whole school, we have all heard that arguement, but when you can field 50 for football, tell me you only belong in the 3A or 4A!

So the issue public schools have is with Shiloh from the sound of it. Why then make a proposal to punish ALL private schools?
This issue goes back longer than most on this board have been alive.. Someone earlier mentioned Harding Academy.. I can tell you several public schools that have taken issue with them for almost 25 years.. When you play a conference game and have to play against kids from your own town it tends to leave a bad taste.. Especially when everyone involved knows the details of why that kid is actually there..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 01:48:18 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 01:41:27 pm
So because the school encourages increased participation in extracurricular activities like athletics, they have an unfair advantage? At PA we were basically required to be involved in something extracurricular because PA is a college prep school and those things look good on a college resume.
I get your point, but you have to appreciate that those kids are there BECAUSE of those types of policies and thus get kids that are more prone to team sports than the general pop at a public school.  Plus those very kids have subtracted the number of participants from the school that they left.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 01:56:51 pm
Also ask yourself how many special ed students these private schools have to care for and how many of their kids show up everyday in order to have the only hot meal they'll see.. I'll answer for you, NOT ONE!!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 01:57:51 pm
You are making the assumption that private school kids have transferred there from public schools. I was at PA from K-12. A lot of the kids who do transfer in later on come from other private schools that don't go all the way to 12th grade.

Parents see that a private school encourages students to be involved in things like band, drama, Model UN, Amnesty, International, athletics, etc. When you are a parents in LR and you look at where to send your kids, you can't help but be attracted to a school that encourages development outside the classroom. That is not an unfair advantage in my book just because the other schools in the area don't do it as much.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 02:00:06 pm
You are assuming that I am assuming they all transfer.  The point remains on a percentage basis these kids are planning to be active with active parents at a much higher rate than the schools they choose not to attend.

No matter when they start.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 02:01:58 pm
Subtracted from the pool -  look at the people playing for Lutheran, ECS, Conway St. Joe, even Subiaco.   If they attended Central where do  you think they'd spend Friday evening?  On the field? On the bench? Or in the bleachers.

There loss certainly hurts the average test score, but I wouldn't think 1/10 of them would even make a large HS team.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: menehune on May 01, 2009, 02:04:00 pm
Quote from: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 01:05:32 pm
Malzahn used an offense that worked at SC and then at Springdale.  To say SC alone made Arkansas High School Football what it is today would not cross my mind.  There are many football programs I would put way ahead of them. 

Don't be silly - EVERYONE knows that Gus Malzahn invented modern football!! ;D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 02:05:01 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:00:06 pm
You are assuming that I am assuming they all transfer.  The point remains on a percentage basis these kids are planning to be active with active parents at a much higher rate than the schools they choose not to attend.

No matter when they start.

I still fail to see how that is an unfair advantage for private schools. I would imagine that public schools that enjoy success athletically tend to have a higher percentage participation than other public schools they play.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 02:09:03 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 02:05:01 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:00:06 pm
You are assuming that I am assuming they all transfer.  The point remains on a percentage basis these kids are planning to be active with active parents at a much higher rate than the schools they choose not to attend.

No matter when they start.

I still fail to see how that is an unfair advantage for private schools. I would imagine that public schools that enjoy success athletically tend to have a higher percentage participation than other public schools they play.
Not near to the degree you see it at most privates.

Again, I'm not faulting Privates for doing as they please.  But they can put more into salaries, facilites and whatever they choose without having to disclose any of the information.  All these factors are built in competitive advanges.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 01, 2009, 02:12:09 pm
Quote from: menehune on May 01, 2009, 02:04:00 pm
Don't be silly - EVERYONE knows that Gus Malzahn invented modern football!! ;D
Good one.  :)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 02:25:18 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:09:03 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 02:05:01 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:00:06 pm
You are assuming that I am assuming they all transfer.  The point remains on a percentage basis these kids are planning to be active with active parents at a much higher rate than the schools they choose not to attend.

No matter when they start.

I still fail to see how that is an unfair advantage for private schools. I would imagine that public schools that enjoy success athletically tend to have a higher percentage participation than other public schools they play.
Not near to the degree you see it at most privates.

Again, I'm not faulting Privates for doing as they please.  But they can put more into salaries, facilites and whatever they choose without having to disclose any of the information.  All these factors are built in competitive advanges.

And that is why they created the multiplier...and then increased it.

It is blatantly obvious to me, in LR at least, that being a private school does not mean you have an unfair advantage at all. Look at how bad some of these private schools get beat. Don't tell me it's because of money because Episcopal had just as much money to toss around as schools like PA.

The difference is the commitment made by the school, the coaches, the parents, and the players to be successful. It's the same reason you have public schools that are powers year in and year out.

Maybe Berryville can take a trip to Greenwood and see what it takes to build a successful program. They would enjoy more success and learn a much better lesson than to cry about it and get the big bad private schools kicked out instead of facing them. But instead it seems that they are content with getting stomped 65-0 as long as it's by another public school.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 02:29:06 pm
There is much more to this than Berryville vs. Shiloh.

I have also said many times this has a guilty by association feel to it.  But the advantages are there even if they don't all use them.  It least there is some ability of catch-up for privates that would want to close ground as opposed to publics that have handcuffs and get soundly thrashed.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: rammer on May 01, 2009, 02:30:11 pm
 While we are at it, why don't we do something like this at the college level. I am an Arkansas Razorback fan and just last year we lost by 35 to Alabama and 31 to Florida. It is easy to see with the recruiting base and tradition of these schools that they have an unfair advantage. Lets not let them be eligible for a BCS bowl since it is obvious that they are much better than the rest of us. Throw them in with Texas (we lost to them by 42 last year) and USC (we all know what they did to us a few years ago) and not let them compete for a championship.

Maybe we won't have to work harder afterall to get to a BCS bowl game. Let's not hire better coaches and work harder, let's just do away with the ones that are too good. Afterall, we can hang with the Miss. States and Vanderbilts and get our share of championships now.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 02:35:56 pm
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2241/facepalm2ic7copyrl2.jpg)

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 02:55:55 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 01:56:51 pm
Also ask yourself how many special ed students these private schools have to care for and how many of their kids show up everyday in order to have the only hot meal they'll see.. I'll answer for you, NOT ONE!!

Well society needs places designed for attended to special needs, whether educational or nutritional.

Some people don't find that the best environment for learning....but at least they still pay their taxes to support it.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Chris on May 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
Bugeater,

You need to really take a look into Siloam Springs situation before you call us whiners.  If the AAA had not stepped in and change things,  the Panthers would be traveling to El Dorado,  Texarkana,  to the South or West Memphis or Jonesboro to the East.  Thats crazy;  as it is Siloam travels more than any school in the state. So we know what travel is.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 01, 2009, 02:57:28 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:09:03 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 02:05:01 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:00:06 pm
You are assuming that I am assuming they all transfer.  The point remains on a percentage basis these kids are planning to be active with active parents at a much higher rate than the schools they choose not to attend.

No matter when they start.

I still fail to see how that is an unfair advantage for private schools. I would imagine that public schools that enjoy success athletically tend to have a higher percentage participation than other public schools they play.
Not near to the degree you see it at most privates.

Again, I'm not faulting Privates for doing as they please.  But they can put more into salaries, facilites and whatever they choose without having to disclose any of the information.  All these factors are built in competitive advanges.

Yeah, but often they pay LESS.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:14:49 pm
Shiloh could just volunteer to move to 7A and take all of the pressure off of the other schools being forced out. No one would complain about them playing schools with comparable "resources". This would be a tremendous selfless gesture on their part and would prove that they practice what they preach.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 03:18:16 pm
There is no reason they should be in 7A. Maybe 5A, but 7A is absurd.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Lions84 on May 01, 2009, 03:19:02 pm
Quote from: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:14:49 pm
Shiloh could just volunteer to move to 7A and take all of the pressure off of the other schools being forced out. No one would complain about them playing schools with comparable "resources". This would be a tremendous selfless gesture on their part and would prove that they practice what they preach.

I agree or all the privates could just join the

  http://www.mpsa.org/default2.php#
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:30:00 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 03:18:16 pm
There is no reason they should be in 7A. Maybe 5A, but 7A is absurd.

Absurd? Maybe. But, they draw from the same students and spend as much as the 7A's. No more concerns about them not having enough competition and being unable to avoid running up the score.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:32:08 pm
5A would probably be a better fit, but, I don't know if it would be enough to calm the mob mentality.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 03:36:09 pm
Quote from: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:30:00 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 03:18:16 pm
There is no reason they should be in 7A. Maybe 5A, but 7A is absurd.

Absurd? Maybe. But, they draw from the same students and spend as much as the 7A's. No more concerns about them not having enough competition and being unable to avoid running up the score.

Yet their enrollment is still a fraction of 7A schools'. That is why I said 5A would be more appropriate for them.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:39:03 pm
Enrollment only works when you are comparing apples. When you look at the quantity and quality of the players, you notice some differences. I've said before that I think an accurate accounting of the budgets would give us a much better way to classify the schools.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: DT on May 01, 2009, 03:52:34 pm
That's why the multiplier was introduced.

Why would budgets make a difference? Booster clubs exist at both public and private schools.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 05:20:02 pm
Quote from: True Fan on May 01, 2009, 03:30:00 pm
Quote from: DT on May 01, 2009, 03:18:16 pm
There is no reason they should be in 7A. Maybe 5A, but 7A is absurd.

Absurd? Maybe. But, they draw from the same students and spend as much as the 7A's. No more concerns about them not having enough competition and being unable to avoid running up the score.

It's hard to believe Shiloh spends as much as the NWA 7A schools.  Shiloh has nice facilities, but they are no where near what the 7As or Gravette have.  Those schools have a multi-million dollar advantage over shiloh in facilities alone.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: AAAspectator on May 01, 2009, 05:34:40 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 05:20:02 pm
Those schools have a multi-million dollar advantage over shiloh in facilities alone.

But those schools don't have the opportunity every week to raise money ;) ;)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 05:42:37 pm
I had an opportunity to watch some video of the Shiloh/Berryville game to check out the controversial 4th quarter pass.  In the 4th Q, Shiloh threw 2 passes, both 5 yard stops to an inside receiver by the Soph. JV QB.  One sailed way over the receiver's head, and hit a Berryville defender right in the hands, but he didn't hang on to it.  The other one was tipped high in the air, became a jump ball, and Shiloh came down with it for a 7 yd. gain.  Nothing was thrown down field.  Both plays yielded much better results for Berryville than when Shiloh kept the ball on the ground.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 05:48:46 pm
Stop the spinning or you'll incite some other examples that will inflame it more.  Want to talk FG's?  or timeouts?  or some other bad history that occured between these two in prior years or in junior high?
I can assure you it's not flattering for the Saints.
Move along.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 05:53:51 pm
Pass the plate.  Do we want to talk about Title IX as well?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: MikeCapshaw on May 01, 2009, 06:00:29 pm
I think SCS would be more than happy to move up to Class 5A, but I'm not sure that would end this debate for very long.

Just to note, the Saints did beat 5A semifinalist Greenwood 37-20 this season, but that was in Week 3 before the Bulldogs had their QB situation figured out.

It seems to me the margin of victory is the main issue with Shiloh.

Take away the Saints' 47-9 loss against Shreveport Evangel Christian in Week 1, and they outscored opponents 653-103. That's an average margin of victory of 43 points, equal to beating opponents 50-7.

I was at the Clarksville game, an 84-14 win in second round of playoffs, and it was hard to watch because every bounce of the ball went Shiloh's way. The Panthers showed unbelievable heart as they kept fighting tooth and nail, but quick turnovers and/or three and outs really helped contribute to a few of the late scores.

I wasn't at Berryville so I have no idea what happened with the late pass, but I understand it was an attempt to actually have a no gain play instead of the runs up the middle that were gaining 8 or more yards against a tired defense.

I can see both sides of this issue and I believe something can/will be passed at some point ... I'm just not sure this exact proposal is the way to go.



Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: RD™ on May 01, 2009, 06:02:53 pm
Quote from: MikeCapshaw on May 01, 2009, 06:00:29 pm
I think SCS would be more than happy to move up to Class 5A, but I'm not sure that would end this debate for very long.

Just to note, the Saints did beat 5A semifinalist Greenwood 37-20 this season, but that was in Week 3 before the Bulldogs had their QB situation figured out.

It seems to me the margin of victory is the main issue with Shiloh.

Take away the Saints' 47-9 loss against Shreveport Evangel Christian in Week 1, and they outscored opponents 653-103. That's an average margin of victory of 43 points, equal to beating opponents 50-7.

I was at the Clarksville game, an 84-14 win in second round of playoffs, and it was hard to watch because every bounce of the ball went Shiloh's way. The Panthers showed unbelievable heart as they kept fighting tooth and nail, but quick turnovers and/or three and outs really helped contribute to a few of the late scores.

I wasn't at Berryville so I have no idea what happened with the late pass, but I understand it was an attempt to actually have a no gain play instead of the runs up the middle that were gaining 8 or more yards against a tired defense.

I can see both sides of this issue and I believe something can/will be passed at some point ... I'm just not sure this exact proposal is the way to go.




and at Clarksville they could've down the ball 3 times at the goal line
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 01, 2009, 06:06:59 pm
with recruiting being a HUGE issue, could someone break down where SC's starters would attend school if they didn't go to SC? 
What districts have they been taking players from? 
Would these kids actually "play" somewhere else?

Someone brought it up to me earlier today saying that a lot of SC's starters transfered from larger schools in the area and would not have started or played much there. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 01, 2009, 06:22:19 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 05:42:37 pm
I had an opportunity to watch some video of the Shiloh/Berryville game to check out the controversial 4th quarter pass.

So that limits your identity to either staff, or a member of the exclusive favorite family of shiloh football. Either way, your argument doesn't help. Sell compassion to Gentry.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Ty on May 01, 2009, 06:27:02 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 01, 2009, 06:06:59 pm
with recruiting being a HUGE issue, could someone break down where SC's starters would attend school if they didn't go to SC? 
What districts have they been taking players from? 
Would these kids actually "play" somewhere else?

Someone brought it up to me earlier today saying that a lot of SC's starters transfered from larger schools in the area and would not have started or played much there. 
I'll list players that have transferred in from other NWA schools within a few years of entering high school, or have siblings that played sports at area high schools.

QB- Kiehl Frazier (West Fork, would have pushed Holiday for playing time and played a skill position last year if he wouldn't had transferred.)
RB- Chris Bryant (FHS, would spilt time with Dylan Hale in the backfield this upcoming season.)
WR- Jake Scott (FHS, would more than likely be the #2 receiver behind Dean this season. Older sister went to FHS, older brother played for Shiloh.)
C- Josh Salsbury (FHS, would have started past two seasons and would be one of the top lineman in the conference this season.)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: busterdouglas on May 01, 2009, 08:43:28 pm
The mercy rule has made the running up the score thing easy. Get the clock running and let the other team have some dignity. Josh floyd's answer of "do I tell my young kids not to score?". Yes you do. And you use that to teach a life lesson, Shiloh is in the business of life lessons right?  You teach them to respect their opponent, that we aren't going to humiliate our opponents. If parents don't like that, maybe Rev.Floyd could preach on it. From my seat I see a young coach who validates how good he is by embarrasing others. Maybe when he matures as a coach, or sees his own child get humiliated he will get it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arkpop on May 01, 2009, 09:08:16 pm
and if you were beating shiloh by 50 points you would want your coach to tell the kids not to try?  i didn't think so.

and you're saying if your kid was on the 2nd or 3rd string and got in the game, which rarely happens, you would be okay with a coach telling him not to try, that he didn't want the team to try to score anymore?  surely not.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: busterdouglas on May 01, 2009, 09:13:55 pm
Not telling them not to try. Would tell them not to score and would be proud to see my 3rd string son take a knee.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arkpop on May 01, 2009, 09:16:32 pm
hold your son back from creating a lifetime memory of scoring the only touchdown of his hs career... wow
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 09:16:54 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 02:09:03 pm
But they can put more into salaries, facilites and whatever they choose without having to disclose any of the information.  All these factors are built in competitive advanges.

No, they're not.  Especially when almost all of the private schools don't actually do any of that.  The fact that they don't have to disclose those numbers does not mean the numbers are larger than their public school counterparts.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arkpop on May 01, 2009, 09:20:53 pm
i think teachers starting out at most of the private schools make in the 20-something range.  i'm pretty sure most school district offer a lot more than that as a base salary.  some private schools may operate like fayetteville christian where teachers and coaches work for almost, if not, nothing... so their tuition is a lot less.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 09:24:12 pm
Quote from: arkpop on May 01, 2009, 09:20:53 pm
i think teachers starting out at most of the private schools make in the 20-something range.  i'm pretty sure most school district offer a lot more than that as a base salary.  some private schools may operate like fayetteville christian where teachers and coaches work for almost, if not, nothing... so their tuition is a lot less.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: busterdouglas on May 01, 2009, 09:28:08 pm
He can score next year. And if scoring a touchdown to put his team up 84-15 is one of his biggest memories I haven't done a good job as a parent.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 09:32:43 pm
Quote from: Bwana on April 30, 2009, 10:53:50 pm
Some of us have pushed for this to happen for the last 25 years..

Yes, because the private schools were a real athletic force 25 years ago.  ::)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arkpop on May 01, 2009, 09:35:14 pm
and if he is a sr that has stayed on the team for three years without ever playing b/c he isn't skilled enough, but he has remained on the team b/c enjoys being around teammates, a winning tradition and the joy of being part of a team... he won't get a chance to score next year...

go ahead, deprive kids of "a shot"... then we won't have heartwarming stories like this one... basketball team up by 20... guess coach should have told him not to shoot?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngzyhnkT_jY

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arkpop on May 01, 2009, 09:41:03 pm
because everyone respects shiloh and other private schools and would take a knee if it came to that... they are such a well-respected opponent.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: busterdouglas on May 01, 2009, 09:41:10 pm
Going back to what I said earlier, let him score when the lead is 28 not 64. I think its heartwarming to see a coach have compassion for a weaker team and leave them with a shred of dignity. Bottom line is, if shiloh did that, we wouldn't be having this coversation. I respect your opinion. The 84 thing is just over the top for me.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 09:43:45 pm
Quote from: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.

The problem is that class or lack thereof on the field should not determine classification.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:45:44 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 01, 2009, 09:43:45 pm
Quote from: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.

The problem is that class or lack thereof on the field should not determine classification.

Shoot, I'm from Texas. I didn't even know publics and privates ever played each other until I moved to Arkansas!  ;)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 09:51:53 pm
God the spin just runs rampant.  Shiloh beats the H out of everyone.  There are no kids that don't get to play.  How hung up can you people be that it somehow fulfills a life to score a TD up 60?  Shallow.

For the teachers pay argument, it's not on point.  We're talking about Coaches and what they get paid.  They are not bound to pay the comparable salaries to teachers at Private institutions.  They can bring in a hot shot from out of state and pay twice as much as the same guy could get at the public down the road.

They don't disclose because they do not have too!

These heart-warming stories are not on point either.  If there was some special needs kid that story WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD.

The desperation to which the Spin Doctors reach show they feel the need to justify the unjustifiable.  It's a team sport.  It's about team goals.  It's about respectable behavior and sportsmanship.  Any attempt to use other disrespectful as examples for their justification fails.

Shiloh obviously can't judge what is classy for themselves.  They have representatives that flaunt and taunt.  They run up scores when they don't have too.  They ignore warnings that they were rankling feathers by the AAA.  They refuse to acknowledge that a formal warning by the AAA had merit.  They fail to see the ground swell of support in their backyard.  There HC fails to acknowledge the seriousness of the vote after the fact.

At this point, they have lost any conscious behavior to determine what is sportsmanlike or classy.  They have no judgment.  Thus, it's now left to others to make it right.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 09:56:57 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 09:51:53 pm
For the teachers pay argument, it's not on point.  We're talking about Coaches and what they get paid.  They are not bound to pay the comparable salaries to teachers at Private institutions.  They can bring in a hot shot from out of state and pay twice as much as the same guy could get at the public down the road.

The fact that they can does not mean that they do.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 10:00:08 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 01, 2009, 09:56:57 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 09:51:53 pm
For the teachers pay argument, it's not on point.  We're talking about Coaches and what they get paid.  They are not bound to pay the comparable salaries to teachers at Private institutions.  They can bring in a hot shot from out of state and pay twice as much as the same guy could get at the public down the road.

The fact that they can does not mean that they do.
Some do and the fact some do is the point.  The out of state was for affect, but the salary part for some is true.  They are on their own and it can be an advantage. 

I've said several times on this thread that not everyone operates the same in that manner.  But we know who does have to act the same.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 10:04:39 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 10:00:08 pm
Some do and the fact some do is the point.  The out of state was for affect, but the salary part for some is true.  They are on their own and it can be an advantage. 

I've said several times on this thread that not everyone operates the same in that manner.  But we know who does have to act the same.

Except all other coaches in their class aren't paid the same money either.  It's a non-issue.  Given that logic, Greenwood had an unfair advantage because of what their coach made according to that ADG article last year.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 10:11:29 pm
Of course it's an issue.  Smaller schools that spend more money than state's allow publics is dang sure valid.

Of course in your need to justify you use another that at least was printed because they had to provide.  How much you think it'd be if they didn't have to like some?

GW is within the guidelines.  Some privates no doubt are as well, but the mistrust by not disclosing adds to the elitist attitude.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 01, 2009, 10:12:16 pm
Did anyone hear Bo "Floyd" Mattingly's radio show? He was protecting his other project by trying to drill Lance Taylor.

I agree with QF, Shiloh can't control their AD so the AAA will.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 01, 2009, 10:15:00 pm
Lance Taylor did his job.  He took the initiative in the fall to try and help Shiloh.  They were deaf to his advice.  Now we are here.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 10:17:40 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 10:11:29 pm
Of course it's an issue.  Smaller schools that spend more money than state's allow publics is dang sure valid.

What is it exactly that states allow publics?  Jones was getting close to six figures as I recall from that article.  Most private schools are nowhere near that and the few that might be couldn't be much past it.

Of course in your need to justify you use another that at least was printed because they had to provide.  How much you think it'd be if they didn't have to like some?

Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 10:11:29 pm
GW is within the guidelines.

What guidelines?

Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 10:11:29 pm
Some privates no doubt are as well, but the mistrust by not disclosing adds to the elitist attitude.

The only reason publics disclose is because of state law.  There's no reason for privates to.  Personally, I would like to see a comparison of everyone's athletic/facility budgets.  I think everyone who assumes the private schools spend much more money would be in for a big surprise.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 01, 2009, 10:19:01 pm
The more I read your posts the more I realize that you don't know quite as much as you think you do.  You have your assumptions and you seem to believe yourself.  Entertaining yes...informative no.

Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 09:51:53 pm
God the spin just runs rampant.  Shiloh beats the H out of everyone.  There are no kids that don't get to play.  How hung up can you people be that it somehow fulfills a life to score a TD up 60?  Shallow.

For the teachers pay argument, it's not on point.  We're talking about Coaches and what they get paid.  They are not bound to pay the comparable salaries to teachers at Private institutions.  They can bring in a hot shot from out of state and pay twice as much as the same guy could get at the public down the road.

They don't disclose because they do not have too!

These heart-warming stories are not on point either.  If there was some special needs kid that story WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD.

The desperation to which the Spin Doctors reach show they feel the need to justify the unjustifiable.  It's a team sport.  It's about team goals.  It's about respectable behavior and sportsmanship.  Any attempt to use other disrespectful as examples for their justification fails.

Shiloh obviously can't judge what is classy for themselves.  They have representatives that flaunt and taunt.  They run up scores when they don't have too.  They ignore warnings that they were rankling feathers by the AAA.  They refuse to acknowledge that a formal warning by the AAA had merit.  They fail to see the ground swell of support in their backyard.  There HC fails to acknowledge the seriousness of the vote after the fact.

At this point, they have lost any conscious behavior to determine what is sportsmanlike or classy.  They have no judgment.  Thus, it's now left to others to make it right.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 01, 2009, 10:21:46 pm
In My Humble Opinion, this is a matter of sportsmanship. It isn't or wouldn't be an issue if one coach knew how to coach. There is more than Xs and Os. It's about gamesmanship and handling the game with pride, not arrogance. BOTH teams should be able to leave the field with dignity.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 10:23:11 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 01, 2009, 10:19:01 pm
The more I read your posts the more I realize that you don't know quite as much as you think you do.  You have your assumptions and you seem to believe yourself.  Entertaining yes...informative no.

The more I read her posts, the more I realize that ANY AAA regulation designed to address one school but instead penalizes multiple schools is a flawed regulation.

If you think a school is doing something dishonest, go after that school and leave everyone else out of it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 10:50:57 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 01, 2009, 09:32:43 pm
Quote from: Bwana on April 30, 2009, 10:53:50 pm
Some of us have pushed for this to happen for the last 25 years..

Yes, because the private schools were a real athletic force 25 years ago.  ::)
Yes HA, 25 years ago schools in the same conference as Harding Academy were the first schools to go to the AAA to file complaints about Public and Private schools playing in the same conference..
This fall private will play private in their own playoffs and 2 years from now privates will have their own classifications.. And FF may give you your own forum..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 01, 2009, 10:57:55 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 10:50:57 pm
Yes HA, 25 years ago schools in the same conference as Harding Academy were the first schools to go to the AAA to file complaints about Public and Private schools playing in the same conference..
This fall private will play private in their own playoffs and 2 years from now privates will have their own classifications.. And FF may give you your own forum..

While that complaining went on, Barton won more than twice as many championships.  Yeah, sounds like HA has a really unfair advantage.

And if you think you will have accomplished something positive by getting rid of schools who are competing within AAA rules, you will be sadly mistaken.

It's amazing that sportsmanship is being used as an argument to promote this.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 11:11:17 pm
There is as much involved off the field in this as there is on the field.. I wish people would open their minds to that.. The football field just happens to be where the battle lines were drawn..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 11:22:33 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 01, 2009, 06:22:19 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 05:42:37 pm
I had an opportunity to watch some video of the Shiloh/Berryville game to check out the controversial 4th quarter pass.

So that limits your identity to either staff, or a member of the exclusive favorite family of shiloh football. Either way, your argument doesn't help. Sell compassion to Gentry.

I wouldn't want to admit to either of those.  Some of you guys might send a virus to my computer. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: OldScrap on May 01, 2009, 11:26:06 pm
Why punish every private school because of one private school?

Would the triple A punish all public schools because of one public school?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 11:45:58 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 01, 2009, 11:11:17 pm
There is as much involved off the field in this as there is on the field.. I wish people would open their minds to that.. The football field just happens to be where the battle lines were drawn..

What are the off the field issues?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on May 02, 2009, 12:51:34 am
In the delta areas, privates are seen as a lose of school funding due to white flight.. Marianna, Brinkley and many many more public schools are on the brink of closure due to the lose of funding.. Students and teachers opting to go private are slowly killing these schools.. Teachers can make the same money and only deal with a select group of kids.. And the majority of these privates are opening for one reason, race.. Not athletics, not academics but race..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 02, 2009, 04:12:45 am
Quote from: Bwana on May 02, 2009, 12:51:34 am
In the delta areas, privates are seen as a lose of school funding due to white flight.. Marianna, Brinkley and many many more public schools are on the brink of closure due to the lose of funding.. Students and teachers opting to go private are slowly killing these schools.. Teachers can make the same money and only deal with a select group of kids.. And the majority of these privates are opening for one reason, race.. Not athletics, not academics but race..
Really? Please step out of the 1960's and into the 21st century.

Believe it or not, some kids still approach high school with the idea of academics foremost in their mind. Many of the Delta schools fail to provide even an average education, giving students even more reason to attend private schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 02, 2009, 07:16:06 am
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 01, 2009, 10:04:39 pm<br />
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 10:00:08 pm<br />Some do and the fact some do is the point.  The out of state was for affect, but the salary part for some is true.  They are on their own and it can be an advantage.  <br /><br />I've said several times on this thread that not everyone operates the same in that manner.  But we know who does have to act the same.<br />
<br /><br />Except all other coaches in their class aren't paid the same money either.  It's a non-issue.  Given that logic, Greenwood had an unfair advantage because of what their coach made according to that ADG article last year.<br />

not to mention arkansas' public school's teacher retirement plan.  every teacher agrees that this is by far the greatest advantage of public school money.  teachers are retiring earlier every year because it really is good.  private school teachers get no part in teacher retirement.  that is why some of the salaries can be bigger, but every private school teacher i know is making well below the public school scale AND is getting NO retirement.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 02, 2009, 07:45:31 am
the minimum teachers salary in the state of Ark is $32,398, public of private.  Some teachers I know want to teach in private school simply because of the "select group" of kids you have to deal with. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 02, 2009, 07:54:05 am
How much transferring goes on in NWA between, say the 7A schools and the smaller ones in the area?  I know it happens a lot here in C. Ark with "M to M's" and Magnet schools.  To me this in no different than someone going to a private school for whatever reason.  I think the issue here is not recruiting or success of any private school but the lack of sportsmanship at SC.  Why "punish" the rest of the states private schools, come down on SC?  I know most of the coaches at LRC and they would never humiliate an opponent the way SC has.  But on the other hand is SC the only school that has run it up on other teams?  Heck no, I read scores I see what Junction City, Nashville, Fountain Lake and others do.  Why doesn't Ark implement a mercy rule like some other states have, a certain score and the game is over?  That would keep the scores down wouldn't it? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: True Believer on May 02, 2009, 08:33:42 am
.
The students (students that live in Arkansas) that I know that go to private schools in Memphis go there for academic reasons. 

The students that go to private schools here in the Delta go sometimes because of race and sometimes the student is not getting enough playing time at the public school and sometimes because of their religious views. 

But from what I have seen of the private schools over here most of the public schools have a much harder curriculum.   I have not been impressed with the private schools  here except for maybe one.  And they only go up to the 6th grade.   So just because a student is going to a private school  in the Delta does not mean they are getting a better education than the public school kids.   But they usually do get to start in whatever sport is their type.  And they play in their own conference.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
The comment about "just better coaching"...I believe Coach Tice to be a class act. He has coached numerous All-Star teams. He has also been offered a position on the AAA and turned it down to continue coaching. The problem is recruting...We can't offer a scholarship....Do the private schools have to adhere to the standards of a district run school? Are there budgets the same? don't know just asking...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 02, 2009, 09:00:07 am
AAA is set up by voted on rules by it's members that are suggested by it's members and often written by the board/committees.

It is designed for the protection of all members big and small.  When a certain type of school doesn't have to conform to the same rules as others then the system is failing as a whole.

The problem is how to handle such schools.  (Obviously).   If an attempt is made to separate just one school, it will be met with courtroom resistance and we all know that.  The  hope the AAA has as a whole is to classify schools as a similar type schools together to get the desired result.  It's all in the legal wording and they are watching that carefully. 

Other states obviously have found solutions to this problem.  They have already had this fight.   Obviously the system is imperfect and will hang someone out to dry by association.  Short of kicking Shiloh out alltogether, they don't really have many options.

I do feel for the PA's and others that have done things the correct way in recent years.  Their (and others) professional has made this debate show that not every private school operates in such a crude fashion.

There will always be blowouts when you have so many school districts in such a small state.  Many thought the answer was to go from 5 to 7 classifications but that is a failure in my book.  All that did was essentially draw more lines to debate over. Is 250 students vs 400 or is 400 vs 550 more of a disadvantage?  That debate is endless.

Now in bold for emphasis I hope there is a solution out there that would address this issue without "penalizing" every school.  But as it stands now there are already schools being "penalized" every year simply due to the previously listed advantages that this one particular school has.

Without some previously listed solution or a unforeseen magnanimous move on Shiloh's part a private school league is probable at some point.  My guess is this just barely falls short of the 2/3 needed to pass, but will have over a 50% approval rate showing how close a change is to occurring.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 02, 2009, 09:20:02 am
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
I believe Coach Tice to be a class act.
I agree
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
He has also been offered a position on the AAA and turned it down to continue coaching.
I'd check my source on that. I heard that was a successful attempt to get a raise. It worked.
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
The problem is recruiting...We can't offer a scholarship.
Harrison has an advantage in that it is the only large school surrounded by smaller non-football schools so that if a kid wants to play football they move to Harrison. Didn't the Point Guard from Alpena "transfer" to Harrison this season?
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
Do the private schools have to adhere to the standards of a district run school? Are there budgets the same?
Some actually have higher academic standards. Budgets are not the same because most are from private funding.

Again, This issue isn't about transfers or advantage, It is about sportsmanship-not humiliating the other school, and winning.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: AAAspectator on May 02, 2009, 09:23:20 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 02, 2009, 07:54:05 amWhy doesn't Ark implement a mercy rule like some other states have, a certain score and the game is over?  That would keep the scores down wouldn't it? 
Why can't coaches do their jobs?

It'd be different if we were talking about a one-time occurance. According to the ADG, after the Berryville game, the AAA warned about possible fall-out and SC kept the same antics the rest of the season.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 09:58:10 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 02, 2009, 07:45:31 am
the minimum teachers salary in the state of Ark is $32,398, public of private

There's not a state set minimum salary for private school teachers.  I'm sure a lot of them start out at much less than that.

Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
The problem is recruting...We can't offer a scholarship....

That's because every one of your student athletes gets a full ride.  That advantage goes to the publics, not the privates.  If 2 athletes get need-based scholarships that are completely unrelated to athletics, that is not an advantage over a public school where every single athlete on the team goes for free.

Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
Do the private schools have to adhere to the standards of a district run school?

No, generally the academic requirements at private schools are higher.

Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 amAre there budgets the same?

No, most private school athletic budgets are lower.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Bwana on May 02, 2009, 12:37:25 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 02, 2009, 04:12:45 am
Quote from: Bwana on May 02, 2009, 12:51:34 am
In the delta areas, privates are seen as a lose of school funding due to white flight.. Marianna, Brinkley and many many more public schools are on the brink of closure due to the lose of funding.. Students and teachers opting to go private are slowly killing these schools.. Teachers can make the same money and only deal with a select group of kids.. And the majority of these privates are opening for one reason, race.. Not athletics, not academics but race..
Really? Please step out of the 1960's and into the 21st century.

Believe it or not, some kids still approach high school with the idea of academics foremost in their mind. Many of the Delta schools fail to provide even an average education, giving students even more reason to attend private schools.
Ty, you really need to step out of NWA for a little road trip to the Delta.. In the areas I'm talking about its still 1960.. This issue will be voted on by the AAA member schools and most will never have any contact with a private school in a athletic situation.. But, they will all remember the 20 kids and 2 teachers they lost when the Billy Bob Academy opened up across town and the funding their school lost with the move.. Most of the Admins in these areas count heads everyday, its that critical..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 02, 2009, 02:09:24 pm
"Every athlete in a public school gets a free ride"                                                      Not sure of the tone you were going for, but that sounded pretty darn shallow to me.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 02, 2009, 02:17:23 pm
That free ride might be on an older model school bus versus a Lexus.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 02, 2009, 02:49:47 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 02, 2009, 12:37:25 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 02, 2009, 04:12:45 am
Quote from: Bwana on May 02, 2009, 12:51:34 am
In the delta areas, privates are seen as a lose of school funding due to white flight.. Marianna, Brinkley and many many more public schools are on the brink of closure due to the lose of funding.. Students and teachers opting to go private are slowly killing these schools.. Teachers can make the same money and only deal with a select group of kids.. And the majority of these privates are opening for one reason, race.. Not athletics, not academics but race..
Really? Please step out of the 1960's and into the 21st century.

Believe it or not, some kids still approach high school with the idea of academics foremost in their mind. Many of the Delta schools fail to provide even an average education, giving students even more reason to attend private schools.
Ty, you really need to step out of NWA for a little road trip to the Delta.. In the areas I'm talking about its still 1960.. This issue will be voted on by the AAA member schools and most will never have any contact with a private school in a athletic situation.. But, they will all remember the 20 kids and 2 teachers they lost when the Billy Bob Academy opened up across town and the funding their school lost with the move.. Most of the Admins in these areas count heads everyday, its that critical..
IF, and that's a big if, things are still like they were in the 1960's, it's more than likely that the reason behind this is because of the very people who make no effort to advance beyond 1960 both in both a social and cultural perspective. It's common throughout all of America.

I graduated with 12 other students in my class, which is about average at the HS I attended. Multiply that by 4, and you have a full enrollment that falls under 50 and manages to dip below 45 at times due to all the magnet students we received due to the oil industry being the main source of jobs in the town. On more than one occasion in my senior year, we only had 9 baseball players on the bus as we pulled out to travel somewhere and play. You made the assumption that I don't understand the situation since I'm from the Big Ole NWA, which is completely wrong.

In all respects, a private school can provide better accommodations than schools such as the one I graduated from due to simple Govt. Laws and other stipulations. You can't blame a student for wanting to further his education and person as a result.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Ty on May 02, 2009, 02:54:08 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 02, 2009, 07:54:05 am
How much transferring goes on in NWA between, say the 7A schools and the smaller ones in the area?  I know it happens a lot here in C. Ark with "M to M's" and Magnet schools.  To me this in no different than someone going to a private school for whatever reason.  I think the issue here is not recruiting or success of any private school but the lack of sportsmanship at SC.  Why "punish" the rest of the states private schools, come down on SC?  I know most of the coaches at LRC and they would never humiliate an opponent the way SC has.  But on the other hand is SC the only school that has run it up on other teams?  Heck no, I read scores I see what Junction City, Nashville, Fountain Lake and others do.  Why doesn't Ark implement a mercy rule like some other states have, a certain score and the game is over?  That would keep the scores down wouldn't it? 
In the past, quite a bit. Farmington and Greenland had quite a bit of success in the past few years with players who wouldn't have received much playing time at FHS. It's slowed down considerably though.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: DT on May 02, 2009, 03:14:42 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 02, 2009, 07:54:05 am
How much transferring goes on in NWA between, say the 7A schools and the smaller ones in the area?  I know it happens a lot here in C. Ark with "M to M's" and Magnet schools.  To me this in no different than someone going to a private school for whatever reason.  I think the issue here is not recruiting or success of any private school but the lack of sportsmanship at SC.  Why "punish" the rest of the states private schools, come down on SC?  I know most of the coaches at LRC and they would never humiliate an opponent the way SC has.  But on the other hand is SC the only school that has run it up on other teams?  Heck no, I read scores I see what Junction City, Nashville, Fountain Lake and others do.  Why doesn't Ark implement a mercy rule like some other states have, a certain score and the game is over?  That would keep the scores down wouldn't it? 

Very good post.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 02, 2009, 03:32:39 pm
The more I read on this topic the more I see it really being a sportsmanship issue.

I have been on both sides of blowouts. Springdale beat us 62-0 one year and we never once complained of having the score run up. in fact, if they had stopped trying to score by taking a knee or intentionally fumbling the ball we would have been more offended.

I have also been a part of a game against Bald Knob where the BK defense took a knee in the 4th quarter to let us score because they felt they were having the score run up on them.

It's pretty clear that fans on both sides are passionate about this for a lot of reasons beyond the scoring margin. But I don't believe we would be at such a radical point if Shiloh hadn't won by such a large margin in so many games. It is true that public schools like Junction City and Fountain Lake have had similar scoring margins in recent years, but Shiloh has got to realize they have a gigantic target on their back. The passion that fans have on this subject should make it obvious to the Saints that the entire state is watching their every move and what they do affects the rest of the private schools in the state.

Having played against Shiloh in the past I will say they had some of the classiest players I have ever competed with. But somewhere along the path their program, whether it be parents, coaches, etc., has rubbed a LOT of folks the wrong way. I am a private school supporter, but I can't help but say this is a Shiloh issue that needs to be addressed on an individual basis instead of statewide.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: attaboy on May 02, 2009, 03:52:59 pm
I have heard many reasons for private schools,religion,safety,quality of education it goes on and on and....
To me its like a little boy who is unhappy at the local game and takes his ball and goes home. Public schools are OUR schools if they are not safe work to make them safe. If they are not educating, work to make them better. That leaves the most hypocritical reason left...religion. Did Christ seclude himself from those that did not agree?
Was He available for all? Teach and lead by example, don't leave public schools, come together and preach to the choir!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dayton Kitchens on May 02, 2009, 03:53:02 pm
Why can't public schools stop carping about the "unfair advantages" of private schools and start trying to

A) Focus on their own strengths

B) Learn the things private schools do well and try to copy it?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 02, 2009, 04:05:24 pm
Interesting tidbit in the paper.

High school age kids who reside in the city of Maumelle (which I assume is in Oak Grove District)

"Also atttend :
Central Arkansas Christian, North Little Rock, Little Rock Central, J.A. Fair, Joe T. Robinson, Parkview, eStem, Hall, John L. McClellan, Wilbur D. Mills, Episcopal Collegiate School and Arkansas Baptist ."

So NLR, Central, Fair, Robinson, Parkview, eSTem, Hall, McClellan, and Mills are in the clear,
but CAC, AB and Episcopal recruit!!

The idea that students attend the school in their attendance zone may be true in some locales, but in terms of "attendance zones"  in the Central Arkansas Area, Privates have no advantage over Publics.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 02, 2009, 04:08:26 pm
I can't believe it, but I have read this entire thread. Now I would like to offer my thoughts. First, a little background...

I have children at LRCA. We receive the one-third financial aid, and still barely scrape the money to pay the tuition. Our children play athletics, but are not superstars (well, still holding out hope for the youngest - a sixth grader - to be a football star). We struggled with the private vs. public school decision. We originally thought we would do private during elementary/middle school, and then switch to public for high school (perhaps Central, which has excellent honors programs). However, we didn't foresee (though it might seem obvious) that our children would become entrenched with their school and friends and not want to leave. So we chose private school for our young kids because LR public schools are really rough and we just didn't want them exposed to too much too soon.

This whole debate really bums me out, especially the hatred coming from some on both sides. I hate the idea that my younger kids won't get to compete in the same caliber of state tournaments that my oldest son has. We've had excellent competition against the likes of Harrison, Greenwood, Siloam, Magnolia, Hot Springs, etc. I would be really surprised if the majority of those good folks from those schools want to get rid of LRCA -- or PA & CAC for that matter. But I might be wrong. Heck, I would never have expected that Tommy Tice would push for such a thing. It makes me wonder what he wants. Does he just want to narrow down the competition and improve his chance at winning championships? I've certainly never felt that we had an advantage over Harrison in any sport. I love competing against those guys. During our time in the West, we had some barn-burners against them, Greenwood and the rest.

One more thing I must say: anybody who says private schools have superior facilities is not a part of 5A. LRCA's facilities rank at the bottom of the 5A. PA and CAC's facilities are somewhere in the middle. Heck, we are playing in the baseball tournament this week, and when we go to the Lakeside baseball field, our mouths drop wide open. That is the same reaction we had when we went to their football field. I turned to a friend and said "where do they get all this money?!" Camden's football facility! Greenwood's! Harrison's! Though I'm a little bit jealous when I go to these school's facilities, I don't feel it is unfair. It is what it is. To tell the truth, I admire these schools and the communities they represent. I'm a little jealous of what they have -- the idea of an entire community pulling together behind their team is very appealing.

Ultimately, I think the AAA guys who want this are just being lazy. I think everybody should work together to come up with a "win-win" solution. I'm sure it is not easy and there is a lot of frustration. But the kids of this state deserve our very best effort. Public and private school kids are not that different -- especially when you strap some pads on them and put them in a highly competitive environment. They are kids.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 04:32:15 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 02:17:23 pm
That free ride might be on an older model school bus versus a Lexus.

As it would be with Harber versus smaller area schools.

When the whole team goes for free at the competition, it is not an advantage if only 2 or 3 of yours do (assuming they do).
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 04:38:09 pm
Quote from: attaboy on May 02, 2009, 03:52:59 pm
To me its like a little boy who is unhappy at the local game and takes his ball and goes home.

Ironic that this proposal does just that.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 02, 2009, 05:09:52 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 02, 2009, 09:20:02 am
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
I believe Coach Tice to be a class act.
I agree
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
He has also been offered a position on the AAA and turned it down to continue coaching.
I'd check my source on that. I heard that was a successful attempt to get a raise. It worked.
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
The problem is recruiting...We can't offer a scholarship.
Harrison has an advantage in that it is the only large school surrounded by smaller non-football schools so that if a kid wants to play football they move to Harrison. Didn't the Point Guard from Alpena "transfer" to Harrison this season?
No he transferred in 07-08 and he already lived in the Harrison school district.  Went to Jr. High here until his 9th year.
Quote from: goblinfan1978 on May 02, 2009, 08:35:33 am
Do the private schools have to adhere to the standards of a district run school? Are there budgets the same?
Some actually have higher academic standards. Budgets are not the same because most are from private funding.

Again, This issue isn't about transfers or advantage, It is about sportsmanship-not humiliating the other school, and winning.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 02, 2009, 05:12:34 pm
Quote from: Dayton Kitchens on May 02, 2009, 03:53:02 pm
Why can't public schools stop carping about the "unfair advantages" of private schools and start trying to

A) Focus on their own strengths

B) Learn the things private schools do well and try to copy it?

What do private shools do well?  Offer paid scholarships to 17 football players?

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 05:16:28 pm
Quote from: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 02, 2009, 05:12:34 pm
What do private shools do well?  Offer paid scholarships to 17 football players?



Source?  Proof?

Even if that were true, WHICH IT IS NOT, that's about 50 less players than go to your school for free.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 02, 2009, 05:54:57 pm
Ask the AD of the private 4A shool located in NWA.  I dont want to mention any school names.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 06:00:00 pm
Quote from: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 02, 2009, 05:54:57 pm
Ask the AD of the private 4A shool located in NWA. 

He would tell me that the AAA requires that a third party organization oversees financial aid.  That group doesn't even know if the students are athletes.

I sure hope those voting on this thing have a better handle on the rules in place.

Slap away if it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 02, 2009, 06:01:44 pm
Quote from: attaboy on May 02, 2009, 03:52:59 pm
I have heard many reasons for private schools,religion,safety,quality of education it goes on and on and....
To me its like a little boy who is unhappy at the local game and takes his ball and goes home. Public schools are OUR schools if they are not safe work to make them safe. If they are not educating, work to make them better. That leaves the most hypocritical reason left...religion. Did Christ seclude himself from those that did not agree?
Was He available for all? Teach and lead by example, don't leave public schools, come together and preach to the choir!

They have been working for decades to improve the LR schools. It just isn't working. It seems to be getting worse, if anything. Money is not the answer either. I don't think there is a magic bullet to fix them, but a combination of things plus a lot of time and commitment by all parties involved.

As far as religion, parents are sending their kids to these schools because of the religious classes and worship that public schools cannot, by law, offer.

Please don't think I am anti-public schools. Of the kids I mentor at church, the best Christian leaders are the ones at public schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 02, 2009, 06:06:39 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 02, 2009, 04:32:15 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 02:17:23 pm
That free ride might be on an older model school bus versus a Lexus.

As it would be with Harber versus smaller area schools.

When the whole team goes for free at the competition, it is not an advantage if only 2 or 3 of yours do (assuming they do).
If totally true and it's not if you'll look at the schools student profile, the fact remains they play against schools of similiar profiles.  Yet Shiloh and some others don't.

If you to try and play up how great things are at publics in general...How many people at private schools would qualify for free lunch?  How many of them come from broken homes on a percentage basis?  How many live below the poverty line?  How many of them have parents that can are around and afford to be involved?

Your poormouthing of Private schools hurts my stomach from the laughter.  You can't use the same arguments for why they exist and then flip around and try to show how publics have the advantages.   :-\
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: forcephil on May 02, 2009, 06:26:23 pm
Boy, there is just no easy answer, is there?  Frankly, the way classes/conferences are arranged bother me more than one or two schools with an "advantage" having success.  Shiloh is an extreme example maybe, but I see points piled on week in and week out in football, especially. 

Performance can be used as a partial basis for determining classification.  The other thing that might help would be if football would be handled separately for classifications/conferences. 

Batesville in football is a tremendously successful program, but the reality is a conference for basketball that included Batesville, Southside, Cave City, Highland, Newport would generate tremendous excitement for that sport, as opposed to Cave City going to Valley Springs or Bergman, Southside going to Stuttgart or Lonoke, or Batesville going to Blytheville or West Helena or whatever.  Conversely, Batesville would certainly be penalized by being forced into a football conference with those same schools.  I am sure there are other examples that mirror this in other parts of the state.  Seven classifications mean seven state tournaments - that's all.  (Hint hint)  I do agree with many posters who say that it would be unfair to group all private schools together when only one or two seem to be the basis for any decision.

I wish I had the answer, but I don't.  Maybe no one does, but a cookie-cutter mentality to organize our schools into groups is not necessarily the way to go.  It only provides an 'arbritrary' system.  But keeps these posts coming!  Maybe together we'll figure some things out.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 06:27:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 06:06:39 pm
If you to try and play up how great things are at publics in general...

I'm talking about facilities and salaries.

Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 06:06:39 pm
How many people at private schools would qualify for free lunch?  How many of them come from broken homes on a percentage basis?  How many live below the poverty line?  How many of them have parents that can are around and afford to be involved?

I have no idea, but I don't think any of those indicate whether a person can run a 4.4 or bench 300 pounds.

Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 06:06:39 pm
Your poormouthing of Private schools hurts my stomach from the laughter.  You can't use the same arguments for why they exist and then flip around and try to show how publics have the advantages.   :-\

My point is and always has been that public schools and private schools both have advantages and disadvantages that cancel one another out.  If 2 or 3 kids on the football team at a private school get need based financial aid, that is not an advantage.  The fact that the other 30 kids on the team have to pay thousands of dollars per year is a disadvantage.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 02, 2009, 06:30:40 pm
I won't argue with a lot of that cause it's subjective.  However I do take exception to "2-3 kids" statement.  For them to be chosen because of that is a huge advantage that technically a public doesn't get.

Add to that those 2-3 are subtracted from the very schools that play the Juggernaut and you have the gist of this whole fat baby.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 02, 2009, 06:33:32 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 06:30:40 pm
For them to be chosen because of that is a huge advantage that technically a public doesn't get.

They're not chosen because of athletics.  The people who decide don't even know if the students are athletes.  That is already in the the AAA rules.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 02, 2009, 06:41:23 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 02, 2009, 06:33:32 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 06:30:40 pm
For them to be chosen because of that is a huge advantage that technically a public doesn't get.

They're not chosen because of athletics.  The people who decide don't even know if the students are athletes.  That is already in the the AAA rules.
If you think that is entirely accurate, I've got that token swamp land in FL for you.  ;)   That system is flawed to begin with and you surely don't beleive every transfer was by the books.

Back room deals still occur.  They are just covered up better than before due to the consequences.

But again, you are changing gears here.  You keep saying how schools cross each other out with certain advantages.  But then flip to say there is a system that stops it from occuring for athletics. 

Some schools do not operate by the standards you think they do.  And before you go to any great effort to say something about publics I don't defend those that operate outside of those guidelines either.
 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: benchball on May 02, 2009, 08:15:10 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 01, 2009, 09:51:53 pm
God the spin just runs rampant.  Shiloh beats the H out of everyone.  There are no kids that don't get to play.  How hung up can you people be that it somehow fulfills a life to score a TD up 60?  Shallow.

For the teachers pay argument, it's not on point.  We're talking about Coaches and what they get paid.  They are not bound to pay the comparable salaries to teachers at Private institutions.  They can bring in a hot shot from out of state and pay twice as much as the same guy could get at the public down the road.

They don't disclose because they do not have too!

These heart-warming stories are not on point either.  If there was some special needs kid that story WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD.

The desperation to which the Spin Doctors reach show they feel the need to justify the unjustifiable.  It's a team sport.  It's about team goals.  It's about respectable behavior and sportsmanship.  Any attempt to use other disrespectful as examples for their justification fails.

Shiloh obviously can't judge what is classy for themselves.  They have representatives that flaunt and taunt.  They run up scores when they don't have too.  They ignore warnings that they were rankling feathers by the AAA.  They refuse to acknowledge that a formal warning by the AAA had merit.  They fail to see the ground swell of support in their backyard.  There HC fails to acknowledge the seriousness of the vote after the fact.

At this point, they have lost any conscious behavior to determine what is sportsmanlike or classy.  They have no judgment.  Thus, it's now left to others to make it right.
well said and completely true
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 02, 2009, 11:10:58 pm
there are plenty of advantages and disadvantages both ways.  privates do have a few more advantanges and there ought to be some kind of multiplier because of it.  but this will always go back to winning and being bad winners.  i am afraid that everyone in NWA will always look at privates every where else as they are all shiloh.  this is totally unfair.  families don't all pick private schools because they are "too good" for publics.  the desire to have a bible-based curriculum is not a slap to publics.  they are not the enemy.  we all know shiloh football is a pathetic winner,  boastful and arrogant.  however, it is just as unfair to assume others are like them without knowing them. i can point to a handful of publics that act a lot like them in every way (not necessarily in football).  i would never dream of holding that against all of them.   everyone tries so hard to find all of these "advantages" to point to as if that is why they are mad.  it is simply losing and watching poor winners.  there is one thing in this world that is more offensive to people than christianity; that is self-righteous, proud "christians."  if shiloh would simply realize that the perception is that they don't care about others' feelings, we may get somewhere.  i see them as saying, "we can't argue with everyone, so let's take it out on them on the field."  this is just as bad and they don't get it.   i just wish everyone would stop searching for reasons to be mad and let's all deal with why everyone is really mad.   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 02, 2009, 11:54:19 pm
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 02, 2009, 11:10:58 pm
i am afraid that everyone in NWA will always look at privates every where else as they are all shiloh.
Funny, considering almost none of the griping about Shiloh on this board comes from NWA.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 03, 2009, 08:52:43 am
I don't feel I have a dog in this fight but would like to point out a few things wrong in this thread.

Public athletes play for free--I pay taxes so it is not

Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 02, 2009, 04:32:15 pm<br />
Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 02:17:23 pm<br />That free ride might be on an older model school bus versus a Lexus.<br />
<br /><br />As it would be with Harber versus smaller area schools.<br /><br />When the whole team goes for free at the competition, it is not an advantage if only 2 or 3 of yours do (assuming they do).<br />

Since my son went to Har-Ber as a sophmore.  I can assure you not free.  Tulsa camp-I wrote a check for about $180 to $190.  7 on 7 in Alabama that was another check.  Game in Lawton-Booster Club raised money to rent buses and pay for a second set of pants. (Since I helped work that fund raiser) Let's not forget cleats for both and work out clothes. That was just Football, plus other than basketball, Har-Ber doesn't have any stadiums.  In baseball, boys had to sell ads for programs and sell banners.  I believe I worte a check to keep me from selling those.  Plus bought jackets and cleats.  I think I spent close to $1000.00.  Plus my tax dollars.

The thing about private is these folks still pay taxes and the millages that are passed.  Then they pay private tutition.  So what if they have scholorships someone is paying for them. 

Thank Goodness for freedom of choice!!!

Sportsmanship issue I think not in some cases.  For the smaller schools its about tax dollars supporting there schools.  Some just don't get the taxes needed for there schools.


Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 03, 2009, 09:33:42 am
Lexus makes a bus?  I looked at  their web site but didn't see that to be true.   Oh I get it it was meant to be an insult, a slam. National Enquirer comments ruin your creditibilty a little.
I have 2 kids.  One in a private school, one in public.  Our personal car is 2005 Honda Minivan, not a Lexus...
I know its more fun to lump all families, who choose to place a son or daughter into private school, as snobs, poor sports, rich, all driving Lexus', etc...thats not the case for most of the students or families but I know its probably more fun for some to simply makeup stuff and post a thread on board and some will believe it, trust you and assume you know what you are talking about and some know the truth...

In reality most public school buses are newer and nicer than what we get at the private school.  And tax dollars are not used to buy them, maintain them, repair them or fuel them.

Quote from: QF© on May 02, 2009, 02:17:23 pm
That free ride might be on an older model school bus versus a Lexus.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 03, 2009, 09:37:55 am
Sportsmanship IS the issue, and even if you have never been on the field/court with Shiloh, then you probably would STILL know that. Unless you have never been to a game. I remember being   1-3A  with Shiloh until we all moved up to 1-4A. Didn't take them too long to catch up. This is not just football sportsmanship, either. It was always nice to be beating them on the court and having some pretty harsh ish talked to us. Worse than Prarie Grove ever did, and that is no small feat.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 03, 2009, 09:41:24 am
Sportmanship from fans is what you are saying??  Or running up score?? Man never heard anyone say anything when Springdale or Little Rock Central would do same thing!!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 03, 2009, 09:45:29 am
From the players.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 03, 2009, 09:48:22 am
Bobcat, seems like the fine folks of Berryville might want to focus a little more on their city politics and the folks who are leading their community and worry a little less about losing a football game...

http://nwanews.com/adg/News/257404

alot more important things in life than a football game...

Quote from: bobcat on May 03, 2009, 09:37:55 am
Sportsmanship IS the issue, and even if you have never been on the field/court with Shiloh, then you probably would STILL know that. Unless you have never been to a game. I remember being   1-3A  with Shiloh until we all moved up to 1-4A. Didn't take them too long to catch up. This is not just football sportsmanship, either. It was always nice to be beating them on the court and having some pretty harsh ish talked to us. Worse than Prarie Grove ever did, and that is no small feat.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 03, 2009, 09:55:00 am
FYI, I lowered it from a Mercedes.  I have also said repeatedly I don't lump them all in together.

Yet, the reverse as it applies to public's seems to be true from some.

It also noted you ignore all the relevant infomation about school profiles as it relates to income status overall.   But then, you have too.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 03, 2009, 10:06:35 am
all good points...money can buy a lot of things but not athleticism, speed, height, sports instincts etc...I think we are giving too much credit to the financial end of it...
S'dale Harber parents (in general) have higher income levels than S'dale "Old School" however this past year Old School beats New School 3 x's in girls basketball (i know thats not a great example but its the best I can come up with on Sunday morning)...so financial status shouldn't play a big role on the field or court etc...IMO.

Quote from: QF© on May 03, 2009, 09:55:00 am
FYI, I lowered it from a Mercedes.  I have also said repeatedly I don't lump them all in together.

Yet, the reverse as it applies to public's seems to be true from some.

It also noted you ignore all the relevant infomation about school profiles as it relates to income status overall.   But then, you have too.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: badgrbaceballdad on May 03, 2009, 10:43:32 am
WOW!!!  I have read this whole thread, albeit it took me several sessions to do it.  As I dont have a dog in this fight I want to offer my opinion.   Not that it will mean much to either side.

Not all private schools are accused of recruiting.  My thought is because not all private schools dominate their respective classifications as does Shiloh.  If all of the private schools were that dominate then you can bet there would be more heck raised than just a little bit.

On the other hand, I do believe that if private schools want to have an athletics program then they should compete against each other.  My reason goes back to choice.  If you CHOOSE to attend a private school then you CHOOSE to play other private schools.  To me it is that simple. 

Just my thoughts and they dont mean a whole lot to any one but me!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 03, 2009, 10:46:59 am
Quote from: blueprep on May 03, 2009, 10:06:35 am
so financial status shouldn't play a big role on the field or court etc...IMO.
That would be a big wish instead of an opinion.  ;)

Money and athletics are forever intertwined at every school.  Some quite a bit more than others.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: attaboy on May 03, 2009, 12:25:35 pm
Quote from: badgrbaceballdad on May 03, 2009, 10:43:32 am
WOW!!!  I have read this whole thread, albeit it took me several sessions to do it.  As I dont have a dog in this fight I want to offer my opinion.   Not that it will mean much to either side.

Not all private schools are accused of recruiting.  My thought is because not all private schools dominate their respective classifications as does Shiloh.  If all of the private schools were that dominate then you can bet there would be more heck raised than just a little bit.

On the other hand, I do believe that if private schools want to have an athletics program then they should compete against each other.  My reason goes back to choice.  If you CHOOSE to attend a private school then you CHOOSE to play other private schools.  To me it is that simple. 

Just my thoughts and they dont mean a whole lot to any one but me!

I liked it!!!
Take time and look at the privates(schools this is!) in all state events that are happen' now there are quite a few! THIS IS NOT A SHILOH issue!!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 03, 2009, 12:49:48 pm
Or you could take schools in which less than 20% can perform at grade level and shut down all extracurricular activities and shunt those monies into teachers and facilities.  The school becomes an education center instead of a playground.

If after 4 years, the non-athletic school cannot perform.....and really what essential role does a school have other than teaching ........the school is closed and the community will move their kids to a school that CAN provide an education.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 03, 2009, 12:57:53 pm
Quote from: attaboy on May 03, 2009, 12:25:35 pm
THIS IS NOT A SHILOH issue!!
You, 2 families, and a few others are the only ones who believe that. This isn't an issue without classless display on the football field.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 03, 2009, 01:35:46 pm
I did not take the time to read your link as I am sure it pertains to Mayor Tim McKinney. The citizens of Berryville have no control over another man's desire to get high. A couple of fine older folks in Berryville got him into that mess. I did not play sports at BHS. I am not really a bobcat fan as much as a 1-4A fan. If the link you posted pertains to that story, I am curious as to what you think the Mayor's behavior has to do with this discussion.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 03, 2009, 01:49:02 pm
Desperation is your answer. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: c hog on May 03, 2009, 02:11:39 pm
I don't understand the need for more rules. Don't you have to be enrolled by July 1st of your tenth grade year to play or you have to sit out a year if you transfer without a physical move into the district.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: attaboy on May 03, 2009, 02:29:30 pm
John!John!John! tell me please, you have stated that your mom works at department of ed, and public schools are failing, should we start at the top? Clean house there then move down? You seem to be the well if infinite wisdom,just where did you acquire this knowledge...public or private? If you have the time to spare from saving our state in its terminal education problem, I need some advice on my portfolio....please.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 03, 2009, 03:57:49 pm
attaboy = we be taught OK as long as we beat Misisipi

Even Central High, which may provide the most outstanding opportunities within our state to top students, still is on the academically distressed list.

We tolerate a system which is known to perform poorer than that of almost every state and a bunch of foreign countries.  Our expectations are slow low and yet we accept that students "can't" attain them.

Look at the record of KIPP schools.  Catering to low income, academically delayed students in the 6 - 9 grades they have an outstanding record of getting kids back on track to graduate at college prep level.  The students CAN perform

The problem in Arkansas is that they realized the community had no school offering quality college prep education and has had to build their first HS nationwide.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 03, 2009, 04:25:41 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 03, 2009, 09:45:29 am
From the players.
So you are saying all Private schools should play together because of the players attitudes?  Are you saying they are the only ones trash talking? Therefor they should just play each other?  After reading this thread I have read it has to do with sportsmanship, money, running points up on the other teams. 

Come on none of that is legit reasons to have them only play each other.  I would like to see one good reason.  Other than they just keep beating us.

I'm not sure it also proves they get better educations either.  I can name a school in the state that a vast number of football boys are also make the academic team.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: attaboy on May 03, 2009, 04:40:48 pm
John don't sidestep the question......should we start firing...including your mother. Where did you receive your superior education? What investment advice can you give poor,dumb, public educated Arkies?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 03, 2009, 04:50:28 pm
Private school K - 1, Public school 2 - 12.

No need to start firing.  Everyone seems pretty happy with the education system as it exists.  As long as the masses are complacent, not much will change.

I put put my IRA in mutual funds.  i hope they come back
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 03, 2009, 04:52:09 pm
First of all, why are we all attacking each other? Second of all, I do not support this proposal. I stated that earlier in the thread. I want to see them in 7A because, as we have heard them say hundreds of times before, "Shiloh Christian is the best football team in the state and can compete and win at any playing level." So let them have some tougher competition. What's the big deal with them moving up to a conference with other schools in their district? Obviously 3 and 4 A are no match for Shiloh.       BTW, I have heard that "best team in the state" line since I was in 4th or 5th grade. Even when they weren't winning every game.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bombs away on May 03, 2009, 05:13:31 pm
I believe Shiloh only should be moved up to 5A.  When one team is beating another by 70, whether they mean to or not, it is best for everyone involved for there to be a change.  That is not to say that Shiloh wouldn't be the favorite in 5A this year, but we can't make a rule that tells them they aren't supposed to win.  They would fit well into the 5A West and remove Greenbrier which should make them happy also.  Like I said, they may win the whole thing this year, but in 07' they probably wouldn't have made the playoffs.  The 4A conference is good at the very top, but there is a huge dropoff in the other 90%.  Most of the 5A West teams would give Shiloh good competition in most years and the gate money would be a big plus also.  That's just one person's thought on the matter.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 03, 2009, 08:25:41 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 03, 2009, 04:52:09 pm
First of all, why are we all attacking each other? Second of all, I do not support this proposal. I stated that earlier in the thread. I want to see them in 7A because, as we have heard them say hundreds of times before, "Shiloh Christian is the best football team in the state and can compete and win at any playing level." So let them have some tougher competition. What's the big deal with them moving up to a conference with other schools in their district? Obviously 3 and 4 A are no match for Shiloh.       BTW, I have heard that "best team in the state" line since I was in 4th or 5th grade. Even when they weren't winning every game.
In purely logistical terms, there are already so many 7A schools in NWA as it is, there would be major problems. 8 of the top 13 daily enrollment numbers are the 7A-West schools.

Van Buren and R'Ville has already been forced to the Central. Siloam Springs is about to be placed in a very bad situation when they move up to 6A for 2010.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 03, 2009, 09:20:58 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 03, 2009, 08:25:41 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 03, 2009, 04:52:09 pm
First of all, why are we all attacking each other? Second of all, I do not support this proposal. I stated that earlier in the thread. I want to see them in 7A because, as we have heard them say hundreds of times before, "Shiloh Christian is the best football team in the state and can compete and win at any playing level." So let them have some tougher competition. What's the big deal with them moving up to a conference with other schools in their district? Obviously 3 and 4 A are no match for Shiloh.       BTW, I have heard that "best team in the state" line since I was in 4th or 5th grade. Even when they weren't winning every game.
In purely logistical terms, there are already so many 7A schools in NWA as it is, there would be major problems. 8 of the top 13 daily enrollment numbers are the 7A-West schools.

Van Buren and R'Ville has already been forced to the Central. Siloam Springs is about to be placed in a very bad situation when they move up to 6A for 2010.

In 2010 teams from 6 and 7A will play in "regional" conferences to cut down on travel distances (call it the SS can't handle what MH does rule).  SS might end up playing all 7A size schools in conf play but when it comes to playoffs and state championships they will play other "6A size" schools.  ALL 16 teams will make the playoffs in ALL sports but the largest 16 will be playing the other big schools and the smaller 16 will play schools of that size.  I also heard that SS might not be the only 5A school large enough to move up, Greenwood is mighty close and Jax is losing students at a fast rate.


Back to the SC issue:
Has SC always been "that good" or are they just on a run of late?  Other teams around the state have put together state championships over many years, ran scores up, etc., and nobody has complained about it.  "runs" come and go and I really don't get what the issue is in this case.  Now, if they are doing something illegal up there then there should be an investigation and if guilty they should be punished.  To me it sounds like the "have nots" are pi$$ed because SC is winning games and their not. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 03, 2009, 09:39:38 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:20:58 pmIs SC always been "that good"
Yes, just ask them. They have a website to prove it.

Quote from: bombs away on May 03, 2009, 05:13:31 pmI believe Shiloh only should be moved up to 5A. 
I believe you see why Harrison also proposed the split. the 5A West would become public schools playing for 3rd & 4th.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 03, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
I know they "think" they are hot dooky, but is this an issue of a school doing illegal recruiting and other illegal actions or is this a "everyone hates Shiloh lets hang them out to dry" issue 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 03, 2009, 10:16:41 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
is this an issue of a school doing illegal recruiting
They received a warning for it.
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
"everyone hates Shiloh lets hang them out to dry" issue 
I think that is the ticket. But nothing that wasn't brought on themselves or could have been avoided.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 03, 2009, 10:32:15 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 03, 2009, 10:16:41 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
is this an issue of a school doing illegal recruiting
They received a warning for it.
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
"everyone hates Shiloh lets hang them out to dry" issue 
I think that is the ticket. But nothing that wasn't brought on themselves or could have been avoided.

I really don't care one way or another if SC gets "hung out to dry" or not.  But I think punishing the entire private school system in Ark is not the issue.  But if SC's success is just a run they are on now, what goes around comes around and they will get theirs in the long run.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 03, 2009, 10:33:21 pm
Why is it considered punishment?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 03, 2009, 10:50:11 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:20:58 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 03, 2009, 08:25:41 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 03, 2009, 04:52:09 pm
First of all, why are we all attacking each other? Second of all, I do not support this proposal. I stated that earlier in the thread. I want to see them in 7A because, as we have heard them say hundreds of times before, "Shiloh Christian is the best football team in the state and can compete and win at any playing level." So let them have some tougher competition. What's the big deal with them moving up to a conference with other schools in their district? Obviously 3 and 4 A are no match for Shiloh.       BTW, I have heard that "best team in the state" line since I was in 4th or 5th grade. Even when they weren't winning every game.
In purely logistical terms, there are already so many 7A schools in NWA as it is, there would be major problems. 8 of the top 13 daily enrollment numbers are the 7A-West schools.

Van Buren and R'Ville has already been forced to the Central. Siloam Springs is about to be placed in a very bad situation when they move up to 6A for 2010.

In 2010 teams from 6 and 7A will play in "regional" conferences to cut down on travel distances (call it the SS can't handle what MH does rule).  SS might end up playing all 7A size schools in conf play but when it comes to playoffs and state championships they will play other "6A size" schools.  ALL 16 teams will make the playoffs in ALL sports but the largest 16 will be playing the other big schools and the smaller 16 will play schools of that size.  I also heard that SS might not be the only 5A school large enough to move up, Greenwood is mighty close and Jax is losing students at a fast rate.


Back to the SC issue:
Has SC always been "that good" or are they just on a run of late?  Other teams around the state have put together state championships over many years, ran scores up, etc., and nobody has complained about it.  "runs" come and go and I really don't get what the issue is in this case.  Now, if they are doing something illegal up there then there should be an investigation and if guilty they should be punished.  To me it sounds like the "have nots" are pi$$ed because SC is winning games and their not. 
Thanks for the information. Pretty sure I didn't know that. Not. Speaking about that, how do you seed the playoffs? With SS recent success, they have obviously became one of the better teams in 5A. They are, however, not even close to the level of the teams they will be put in a conference with. They could go winless in conference almost every year and still be one of the top teams in 6A, for what that is worth.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 04, 2009, 07:16:14 am
Quote from: QF© on May 03, 2009, 10:33:21 pm
Why is it considered punishment?

IMO a "private school" state championship would be watered down worse than 6 and 7A is right now.  When the only private schools in the state that would really challenge would be PA or LRC. 

another thing I see happening is if Shiloh (which seems to be the real issue here) is allowed to play a public school regular season they will hang 100 on anyone they can.  The only real accomplishment of this measure will be making it harder for them to win state. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: 3cats on May 04, 2009, 09:44:20 am
Quote from: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.
3 yrs ago our team (private school) was beating a team by 35 pts.  The coach had told the officials to throw a flag if we broke a long one...  My son broke an 80 yard run for a td and it was called back.  I think the best thing happen here even though it was my son.   You have to respect your opponent...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ppop on May 04, 2009, 09:54:57 am
Quote from: 3cats on May 04, 2009, 09:44:20 am
Quote from: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.
3 yrs ago our team (private school) was beating a team by 35 pts.  The coach had told the officials to throw a flag if we broke a long one...  My son broke an 80 yard run for a td and it was called back.  I think the best thing happen here even though it was my son.   You have to respect your opponent...
+1 (and to your son's coach as well!)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 09:56:21 am
its...I am jealous of their success...so I blame them (for being good).  Some point to he man behind the curtain instead of looking in the mirror for the answers as to why...

Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 03, 2009, 09:47:47 pm
I know they "think" they are hot dooky, but is this an issue of a school doing illegal recruiting and other illegal actions or is this a "everyone hates Shiloh lets hang them out to dry" issue 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 04, 2009, 09:56:22 am
Quote from: 3cats on May 04, 2009, 09:44:20 am
Quote from: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.
3 yrs ago our team (private school) was beating a team by 35 pts.  The coach had told the officials to throw a flag if we broke a long one...  My son broke an 80 yard run for a td and it was called back.  I think the best thing happen here even though it was my son.   You have to respect your opponent...


I've been on both sides of some blow outs but I think Steve Spurrier said it best.  NU beat UF 62-24 in the Fiesta Bowl to claim the '95 NC.  NU had the ball on the UF 15 yrd line with almost 2 minutes remaining.  NU took a knee 4 times to run the clock out.  Spurrier said afterwards that NU taking a knee was more humiliating in his eyes than if they would have scored. 

In the case you mentioned I can see it both ways.  You don't want to humiliate your opponent, but yet you don't want to deprive your own players of their chance to shine.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 04, 2009, 10:02:12 am
Quote from: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 09:56:21 am
its...I am jealous of their success...so I blame them (for being good).  Some point to he man behind the curtain instead of looking in the mirror for the answers as to why...
Jealous?  Of what?  The fact they can't conform to general scruples and sportsmanlike behavior?  The fact people are tired of their superior attitude?  The fact they've used high school football to step disrespectfully on anyone that dare speak against them?

Dream on.

Give me a bunch of players, parents, coaches and administration members that don't think they are superior and above the rules any day of the week.   

It's much better than stomping someone down and then doing it again just because you can.  There is a reason some other teams are getting by without such a backlash in somewhat similar situations.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 04, 2009, 10:13:06 am
Quote from: QF© on May 04, 2009, 10:02:12 am
The fact they can't conform to general scruples and sportsmanlike behavior?  The fact people are tired of their superior attitude?  The fact they've used high school football to step disrespectfully on anyone that dare speak against them?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with any of that, but you can't kick schools out of the AAA simply because you think they're not good sports.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 10:16:28 am
the more people hate the bigger they become...

Quote from: QF© on May 04, 2009, 10:02:12 am
Quote from: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 09:56:21 am
its...I am jealous of their success...so I blame them (for being good).  Some point to he man behind the curtain instead of looking in the mirror for the answers as to why...
Jealous?  Of what?  The fact they can't conform to general scruples and sportsmanlike behavior?  The fact people are tired of their superior attitude?  The fact they've used high school football to step disrespectfully on anyone that dare speak against them?

Dream on.

Give me a bunch of players, parents, coaches and administration members that don't think they are superior and above the rules any day of the week.   

It's much better than stomping someone down and then doing it again just because you can.  There is a reason some other teams are getting by without such a backlash in somewhat similar situations.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 04, 2009, 10:18:33 am
But , you can become more serious about the enforcement of each rule. ;)

Or you can do what is happening now and decide to seperate them off to themselves as long as the voters decide too.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 04, 2009, 10:19:24 am
Quote from: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 10:16:28 am
the more people hate the bigger they become...
Only for so long.  There are plenty ways to cut down a tree.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 04, 2009, 10:20:26 am
Quote from: QF© on May 04, 2009, 10:18:33 am
But , you can become more serious about the enforcement of each rule. ;)

I could not agree more.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 04, 2009, 10:22:17 am
So, blue...just out of curiosity, where do you hail from?  The two options are: shut up and let Shiho laugh and taunt you as they blow you out, or make them infamous because you stand up for yourself...?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 10:30:14 am
Quote from: QF© on May 04, 2009, 10:18:33 am
But , you can become more serious about the enforcement of each rule. ;)

Or you can do what is happening now and decide to seperate them off to themselves as long as the voters decide too.

That sounds good, because I am almost certain that QF once admitted Springdale was sliding through loopholes.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 04, 2009, 10:34:49 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 10:30:14 am
Quote from: QF© on May 04, 2009, 10:18:33 am
But , you can become more serious about the enforcement of each rule. ;)

Or you can do what is happening now and decide to seperate them off to themselves as long as the voters decide too.

That sounds good, because I am almost certain that QF once admitted Springdale was sliding through loopholes.
Are you under some misguided impression I'm a Springdale fan?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 10:55:50 am
No, I was reading another thread this am and you responsed that way.

I can't remember the thread though, and I am only through post 8241 reviewing your total posts LOL

My point - there ARE loopholes - many are legal  -  by sheer volume public school make more use of them.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 11:19:50 am
bobcat, hail from and live are different.  i live in the Springdale area.
My experience in this subject matter is nothing more than I kinda' lived through this myself.  I attended private schools in Iowa and California.  I attended schools a lot, like Shiloh, we were very good in football.  When we won we must've cheated if we lost we deserved it and everyone loved it.  People of the other schools loved to hate us, it actually made us stronger as a team and as a school.  If a kid came to school from another school they must've been recruited on and on...
Yes I'm kinda sticking up for Shiloh for those reasons.
Private Schools do have some advantages and they do have some disadvantages.
The city of Springdale, arguably, has the best prep football in the state with Springdale Har-Ber, Bulldogs and Shiloh.  Being good at high school football is part of Springdale's heritage.  It starts at a very young age with Kiwanis, parents are heavily involved and supportive from the 1st grade on, public or private.  It's important for them to be good, they work very hard at it whether its Central or Southwest JH or Shiloh or Har-Ber...so does Greenwood, Siloam, Nashville etc...
If there had not been a HS split in Springdale its not inconceivable that they would have won a couple more state championships in the last few years.
I read alot things (on the boards) that are baseless in their opinions and rampant in their falseness.  most all of these kids at Shiloh have been playing ball together since 3rd grade, part of the same system but yet you would think that the whole team has been recruited there in the last year or two...just not true. 
Its a no win situation...its unfortunate.  Next fall when Shiloh plays B'ville it they're up 35-0 at the half and in the second half they punt on 1st down everytime is that good sportsmanship?  What if a player breaks loose on a long run and just falls down (so they dont score) is that good sportsmanship?  What if a 4th string player, 9th grader, intercepts a pass and can run it back for a score and fumbles on purpose is that good sportsmanship?...see its a no win situation...


Quote from: bobcat on May 04, 2009, 10:22:17 am
So, blue...just out of curiosity, where do you hail from?  The two options are: shut up and let Shiho laugh and taunt you as they blow you out, or make them infamous because you stand up for yourself...?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 11:30:39 am
Well you have to be very good and very disciplined to hold back without making it obvious.

Perhaps next year Shiloh can take a series of intentional safeties, to not only give the ball back, but score some points.

Could a player be the high scorer for each team?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 04, 2009, 11:39:07 am
I enjoyed watching the two Shiloh games I saw last year (Berryville and Gentry). Wouldn't it be easier just to have private and public schools in their own divisions? I fail to see why it is such a big deal. See what Harrison and Berryville complain about then.  On a side note, Harrison just built that multi-million dollar football stadium so what the heck are they complaining about? Thanks for the bleachers, btw.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 11:55:06 am
Well how would you feel about putting Springdale and Gravette in the same conference?

Do you think it would work well............for either school

Probably a bigger difference than Catholic and Lutheran, or even AB I suspect.....and none of them are considered "big offenders"
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 04, 2009, 11:55:22 am
In the state of Iowa, much like Arkansas there are not enough Private Schools for it to be viable (Private school league). 
Now for state playoffs maybe thats different but then does Shiloh or PA still have to be a member of the AAA?  if not then watch out, then they govern themselves.  Careful what you wish for.
What generates more excitement Arkansas vs Texas or Arkansas vs North Texas.  What will garner more pulic or state wide attention a Shiloh vs PA championship game or Lonoke vs Clarksville.  And how many more games might Berryville win if they don't play Shiloh?  Think Shiloh would rather play Greenwood or Berryville?  Think Berryville makes more money hosting a Shiloh team or Gravette? 
Careful what they wish for...

Quote from: bobcat on May 04, 2009, 11:39:07 am
I enjoyed watching the two Shiloh games I saw last year (Berryville and Gentry). Wouldn't it be easier just to have private and public schools in their own divisions? I fail to see why it is such a big deal. See what Harrison and Berryville complain about then.  On a side note, Harrison just built that multi-million dollar football stadium so what the heck are they complaining about? Thanks for the bleachers, btw.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 04, 2009, 12:03:16 pm
I fully expect the United States to implode before my oldest son is playing high school football. If that falls through, then I have approximately 10 years to figure out where Arkansas high school football stands when this dust settles.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 04, 2009, 12:25:55 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 04, 2009, 11:39:07 am
I enjoyed watching the two Shiloh games I saw last year (Berryville and Gentry). Wouldn't it be easier just to have private and public schools in their own divisions? I fail to see why it is such a big deal. See what Harrison and Berryville complain about then.  On a side note, Harrison just built that multi-million dollar football stadium so what the heck are they complaining about? Thanks for the bleachers, btw.

Private funds build all of the new football/soccer facilities.  No tax dollars what so ever where used in this venture.  NONE. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ricepig on May 04, 2009, 12:47:06 pm
Quote from: Fighting Okra 4Life on May 04, 2009, 12:25:55 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 04, 2009, 11:39:07 am
I enjoyed watching the two Shiloh games I saw last year (Berryville and Gentry). Wouldn't it be easier just to have private and public schools in their own divisions? I fail to see why it is such a big deal. See what Harrison and Berryville complain about then.  On a side note, Harrison just built that multi-million dollar football stadium so what the heck are they complaining about? Thanks for the bleachers, btw.

Private funds build all of the new football/soccer facilities.  No tax dollars what so ever where used in this venture.  NONE. 

Good thing you aren't trying to raise the money now.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Fat Money on May 04, 2009, 12:55:46 pm
Quote from: ppop on May 04, 2009, 09:54:57 am
Quote from: 3cats on May 04, 2009, 09:44:20 am
Quote from: ppop on May 01, 2009, 09:37:58 pm
We're not talking about "heart-warming stories", we're talking about class. Take a knee. There's a life lesson right there. Respect your opponent - they are not the enemy.
3 yrs ago our team (private school) was beating a team by 35 pts.  The coach had told the officials to throw a flag if we broke a long one...  My son broke an 80 yard run for a td and it was called back.  I think the best thing happen here even though it was my son.   You have to respect your opponent...
+1 (and to your son's coach as well!)
+1 Exactly!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 12:57:13 pm
Think of the facilities El Dorado could have had if they had spent Deming's money on athletic facilities instead of for college scholarships for EVER graduating senior.

Congrats on the El Dorado promise!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 04, 2009, 01:11:22 pm
Springdale vs Gravette?  Good Lord how foolish. 

The each and every private school backet fails to grasp is they operate under a completely different set of rules.  They choose to build a school and run it under their own set of rules and guidelines as it pertains to scholastics, athletics and religion.

But then in turn they try to claim a 'right' to be a part of a system (AAA) set up by public schools.  This 'cherry picking' of trying to have their cake and eat it to goes to the very heart of the issue.  You wanna be different?  Guess what you are!  You've forfeited a say in the AAA.  I don't think they should even have a right to vote in the matter.

For those worried about the smaller privates versus the larger ones, let them figure it out for themselves like they do on all other matters besides athletics.

Not all public schools play football either.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 01:38:53 pm
Yeah, it is perfectly obvious to you that a school with the equivalent of 1600 students has no business playing one of 300.

The fact that the 1600 enrollments school which has been considered a well behaved, model competitor that would have no one in the state to play is just something you choose to ignore.  One of many.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 04, 2009, 01:42:19 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 01:38:53 pm
Yeah, it is perfectly obvious to you that a school with the equivalent of 1600 students has no business playing one of 300.

The fact that the 1600 enrollments school which has been considered a well behaved, model competitor that would have no one in the state to play is just something you choose to ignore.  One of many.
No one claims a public school is perfect and being snide about it without any true ability to dispute it strengthens my argument.

Private schools are different.  Period.   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 04, 2009, 02:07:08 pm
Of course they are different.  Arkansas Math and Science is different.  Many states have public single sex school, they are different.  Some schools are the only HS in the county, others are one of 5 in a metro area.  Some are big, some are little.  Some are in areas with huge tax bases, others get money from the state.

Schools are different.  No argument from me.

Different is not always better or advantageous.  Now I feel the absolute biggest advantage of private schools is that they can remove any student who is disruptive, unmotivated or dangerous.  That is huge.

On the other hand, having to raise $5 to $10,000 per student per year is a huge disavantage.  No question about it.

To put in in perspective, imagine every child in Arkansas received $5000 from the state and could spend it in any private or public school.  You'd see an influx of students to private schools which they didn't attend because they couldn't afford them.

More involved parents - Can you find any private school with more parental support than Harrison, Greenwood or Nashville.  This one is a wash.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 04, 2009, 03:06:04 pm
If y'all don't think public schools recruit athletes from other schools you need to wake up.  This is all about some people that don't like what Shiloh does and how they do it, and I can't blame them but why shoud ALL the private schools have to change the way they do things just because of Shiloh?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ctownvillain on May 04, 2009, 03:41:18 pm
well if they move Shiloh up and they continue to do what they have been doing to every team they meet. What is going to stop the larger schools from sueing the AAA (like what happened in Louisana) and making them go back to their origanal conf.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: benchball on May 04, 2009, 10:31:39 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 04, 2009, 03:06:04 pm
If y'all don't think public schools recruit athletes from other schools you need to wake up.  This is all about some people that don't like what Shiloh does and how they do it, and I can't blame them but why shoud ALL the private schools have to change the way they do things just because of Shiloh?
i know my public school recruits-not openly but when a specific kid, who will remain nameless, was disgruntled with his coach in 9th grade, he was heavily recruited by our players to come to our school. he eventually went to bentonville and has played sparingly as a sophomore
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: football17 on May 04, 2009, 11:25:40 pm
I have no connection to any program in the state. But I've seen the Shiloh program up close and person. I've seen the LR Christian program up close and personal and other private schools well. And I've seen plenty of public school programs up close and personal.

All the people who want separate playoffs are just foolish, period. You want to play the teams that beat your brains out all year and then not in the playoffs. Totally bush league. Why not invest in pee-wee programs, off season programs, etc where you are good enough to compete. Quit whining.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Maynard G Krebs on May 05, 2009, 03:19:15 pm
The temptation is to write an essay on many different perspectives of this debate.  But to be concise, the  sad message some coaches are sending to their players is "you boys cannot compete,   you're not good enough".  I am glad my son did not play in a system where the leadership exhibited that mentality. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 05, 2009, 03:33:51 pm
To me, the public schools that are complaining are saying to their kids "he we aren't good enough to compete so lets get them kicked out".   Instead of trying to improve what they have, make their program better and to put a better team on the field or court they'd rather quit than fight the battle.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: benchball on May 05, 2009, 03:35:33 pm
agreed, if you have a problem with shilo or pa then address it with the aaa. if you have a problem getting beat that bad, then address it with your own coaches and their offseason program! and i am a public schooler.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bombs away on May 05, 2009, 03:49:44 pm
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on May 05, 2009, 03:19:15 pm
The temptation is to write an essay on many different perspectives of this debate.  But to be concise, the  sad message some coaches are sending to their players is "you boys cannot compete,   you're not good enough".  I am glad my son did not play in a system where the leadership exhibited that mentality. 
Not so fast my friend.  A team like Berryville probably doesn't have great numbers when it comes to football and thus may be forced to play a 9th or 10th grader that is not physically ready to play a Shiloh team.  This kid would be fine playing against other 4A schools, but Shiloh isn't your typical 4A school.  My son was an all-state player, but I would hate to see him have to go against Harvill before he was ready.  The fact Shiloh has these kind of athletes is why we are having this discussion.  On another note, I don't know why Tice is getting involved in this, because his teams should be able to compete with Shiloh on a year to year basis.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 05, 2009, 04:16:37 pm
Quote from: bombs away on May 05, 2009, 03:49:44 pm
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on May 05, 2009, 03:19:15 pm
The temptation is to write an essay on many different perspectives of this debate.  But to be concise, the  sad message some coaches are sending to their players is "you boys cannot compete,   you're not good enough".  I am glad my son did not play in a system where the leadership exhibited that mentality. 
Not so fast my friend.  A team like Berryville probably doesn't have great numbers when it comes to football and thus may be forced to play a 9th or 10th grader that is not physically ready to play a Shiloh team.  This kid would be fine playing against other 4A schools, but Shiloh isn't your typical 4A school.  My son was an all-state player, but I would hate to see him have to go against Harvill before he was ready.  The fact Shiloh has these kind of athletes is why we are having this discussion.  On another note, I don't know why Tice is getting involved in this, because his teams should be
able to compete with Shiloh on a year to year basis.

And while agree with that 100% some of the smaller private schools start 9th and 10th grade PLUS play up a Classification.  It has the same effect as you address, but doesn't seem to bother many people.

But absolutely, mismatches are dangerous and detract from the basics of competition.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 05, 2009, 04:32:16 pm
Quote from: bombs away on May 05, 2009, 03:49:44 pm
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on May 05, 2009, 03:19:15 pm
The temptation is to write an essay on many different perspectives of this debate.  But to be concise, the  sad message some coaches are sending to their players is “you boys cannot compete,   you’re not good enough”.  I am glad my son did not play in a system where the leadership exhibited that mentality. 
Not so fast my friend.  A team like Berryville probably doesn't have great numbers when it comes to football and thus may be forced to play a 9th or 10th grader that is not physically ready to play a Shiloh team.  This kid would be fine playing against other 4A schools, but Shiloh isn't your typical 4A school.  My son was an all-state player, but I would hate to see him have to go against Harvill before he was ready.  The fact Shiloh has these kind of athletes is why we are having this discussion.  On another note, I don't know why Tice is getting involved in this, because his teams should be able to compete with Shiloh on a year to year basis.

Berryville may not have the numbers, but are they doing everything with those numbers that they possibly can?  Are they running systems and schemes suitable for their kids? 
What is their strength and conditioning program like?
What is their off season like?
How do they adapt to SC when they play them?

Believe me I was on the bad side of some pretty big butt kickings in high school.  Looking back I can honestly say we were not mentally or physically prepared to play the teams that killed us. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 05, 2009, 09:43:02 pm
Berryville is in the top halve of the 4A according to the latest numbers. Here is the deal. Berryville is a basketball school. They just built arguably the best facility in NWA outside of HarBer. In Basketball, they were 2-1 against Shiloh.  Berryville football is awful, according to several sources. This whole proposal is over the score. Something has to be done to ensure sportsmanship. The mercy rule is not enough apparently. That's it. I know for a fact that after all 3 basketball games Coach Compton and Coach White talked about the games. Sportsmanship and respect could have avoided all of this.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 05, 2009, 09:52:24 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 05, 2009, 09:43:02 pm
Berryville is in the top halve of the 4A according to the latest numbers. Here is the deal. Berryville is a basketball school. They just built arguably the best facility in NWA outside of HarBer. In Basketball, they were 2-1 against Shiloh.  Berryville football is awful, according to several sources. This whole proposal is over the score. Something has to be done to ensure sportsmanship. The mercy rule is not enough apparently. That's it. I know for a fact that after all 3 basketball games Coach Compton and Coach White talked about the games. Sportsmanship and respect could have avoided all of this.

then does Arkansas need to put in another "mercy rule"?  something like 49 pts game over?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: badgrbaceballdad on May 05, 2009, 10:05:38 pm
OK, Lets do this. Just for S*&Ts and giggles.  In the last five years lets figure the percentage of private schools, thier appearences in playoffs, and thier state titles to the percentage of public schools, thier appearences on the playoffs and their state titles.  I will leave to you math wizzes as it is already to much for my brain!! ;D

My dad used to say, do the figures lie or do the liars figure! ;D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 05, 2009, 10:09:22 pm
Quote from: badgrbaceballdad on May 05, 2009, 10:05:38 pm
OK, Lets do this. Just for S*&Ts and giggles.  In the last five years lets figure the percentage of private schools, thier appearences in playoffs, and thier state titles to the percentage of public schools, thier appearences on the playoffs and their state titles.  I will leave to you math wizzes as it is already to much for my brain!! ;D

My dad used to say, do the figures lie or do the liars figure! ;D

I believe the numbers would even if we really calculated them.

There are really only two tiers of private schools in Arkansas. Those that compete for a state title every year (Shiloh, PA, CAC in the past) and those that compete for a playoff spot (Catholic, LRC until recently, the smaller schools.)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 05, 2009, 10:15:43 pm
Well don't you think you ought to be sure you look only at the school that field teams, not the total number of schools.  For example, the percentage of private schools is higher for Tennis than football.

Once you get the data, how do you plan to use it.  If private schools make up 15% of the schools and take 18% of the championships is that bad?  How about 11 and 22.  Or have you just decided it is "bad" and whatever numbers exist support that.

How do magnet schools do.  How do High Schools in Howard County do?  How do schools with turf fields do?  If you find that school with large minority popluations win more championships, what do you do?  Ban them?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: 3cats on May 06, 2009, 09:09:03 am
Quote from: football17 on May 04, 2009, 11:25:40 pm
I have no connection to any program in the state. But I've seen the Shiloh program up close and person. I've seen the LR Christian program up close and personal and other private schools well. And I've seen plenty of public school programs up close and personal.

All the people who want separate playoffs are just foolish, period. You want to play the teams that beat your brains out all year and then not in the playoffs. Totally bush league. Why not invest in pee-wee programs, off season programs, etc where you are good enough to compete. Quit whining.
+1
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: 3cats on May 06, 2009, 09:15:59 am
It's funny how what goes around comes around.  Schools that complain in one sport, should be careful who they  mercy rule in another.  Just an observation.....
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: badgrbaceballdad on May 06, 2009, 09:21:22 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 05, 2009, 10:15:43 pm
Well don't you think you ought to be sure you look only at the school that field teams, not the total number of schools.  For example, the percentage of private schools is higher for Tennis than football.

Once you get the data, how do you plan to use it.  If private schools make up 15% of the schools and take 18% of the championships is that bad?  How about 11 and 22.  Or have you just decided it is "bad" and whatever numbers exist support that.

How do magnet schools do.  How do High Schools in Howard County do?  How do schools with turf fields do?  If you find that school with large minority popluations win more championships, what do you do?  Ban them?

John, I dont know.  Im just trying to stir the pot a little! HAHA!  My thoughts are that the number of private schools to number of private schools making the play offs and winning championships might be interesting.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 09:35:56 am
Yeah, that would be pretty high.

but kinda slap in the face for all the teams who finished 1 - 7 because of Lutheran, Episcopal and Conway Christian.  LOL
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 10:06:15 am
I found this interesting ......  it's a press release from SC football and visually points out some very important facts pertaining to the SC vs. Berryville game.  Honestly, I'm not a huge SC fan, but it's hard to argue this. 

Play close attention to the 4th quarter video. 

http://www.shilohchristianfootball.com/

I wonder if any of the Berryville people or the Harrison people have seen this.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 10:16:19 am
Don't click that link unless you want to get instantly nauseous.

This is more than one game, one play and one incident.  Their complete body of work says they can't be trusted to do the right thing on hardly any issue.

To late for spin.  Plus you'll note they don't realllllllyyyyyyyy apologize.  They just explain themselves and how they think they're not wrong.

You can't tell other people how they think!

Plus now they have their little internal networking going on with defenders coming out of the wood work.

How long before it comes out how many of their athletes are legitimately on scholarship?  Note the word 'legitimately'.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 10:34:49 am
Apologise for what?  being better?  As the real facts come out you see what Shiloh did and more importantly what they DIDN'T do in that game and throughout the season.

Those who read it will understand the truth. 
"A few Good Men"...you can't handle the truth.  it ruins the National Enquirer approach to your posts.

Should coach McDonnell apologise to the NCAA and its members for winning 40+ Track championships? 
Should Iowa apologise for dominating collegiate wrestling? 


Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 10:16:19 am
Don't click that link unless you want to get instantly nauseous.

This is more than one game, one play and one incident.  Their complete body of work says they can't be trusted to do the right thing on hardly any issue.

To late for spin.  Plus you'll note they don't realllllllyyyyyyyy apologize.  They just explain themselves and how they think they're not wrong.

You can't tell other people how they think!

Plus now they have their little internal networking going on with defenders coming out of the wood work.

How long before it comes out how many of their athletes are legitimately on scholarship?  Note the word 'legitimately'.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 10:43:34 am
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 10:34:49 am
Apologise for what?  being better?  As the real facts come out you see what Shiloh did and more importantly what they DIDN'T do in that game and throughout the season.

Those who read it will understand the truth. 
"A few Good Men"...you can't handle the truth.  it ruins the National Enquirer approach to your posts.

Should coach McDonnell apologise to the NCAA and its members for winning 40+ Track championships? 
Should Iowa apologise for dominating collegiate wrestling? 


Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 10:16:19 am
Don't click that link unless you want to get instantly nauseous.

This is more than one game, one play and one incident.  Their complete body of work says they can't be trusted to do the right thing on hardly any issue.

To late for spin.  Plus you'll note they don't realllllllyyyyyyyy apologize.  They just explain themselves and how they think they're not wrong.

You can't tell other people how they think!

Plus now they have their little internal networking going on with defenders coming out of the wood work.

How long before it comes out how many of their athletes are legitimately on scholarship?  Note the word 'legitimately'.

Good Lord it's a-p-o-lo-g-i-z-e. ::)

You fall into a long line of posters that need to reach for examples that are not comparable.  People get beat all the time and often badly.  Yet only a few voice displeasure.  There is a reason all this has reached a saturation point.  It's not fiction.

John McD has more class in his pinky toe than the entire staff at Shiloh combined.  Please don't lessen his accomplishments and class with such a low end comparison.

You want truth?   How about a full disclosure on the number of athletes on scholarship at Shiloh?  It's a legit question.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 10:55:50 am
what does the Lord have to do with me misspelling a word?

by the way this is how you spell really not "realllllllyyyyyyyy"

You are beginning to isolate yourself with your opinions...the tide is turning and you are helping...most of the radio hosts and their opinions and callers are on the side of Shiloh and PA...

good job keep up the good work...

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 10:43:34 am
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 10:34:49 am
Apologise for what?  being better?  As the real facts come out you see what Shiloh did and more importantly what they DIDN'T do in that game and throughout the season.

Those who read it will understand the truth. 
"A few Good Men"...you can't handle the truth.  it ruins the National Enquirer approach to your posts.

Should coach McDonnell apologise to the NCAA and its members for winning 40+ Track championships? 
Should Iowa apologise for dominating collegiate wrestling? 


Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 10:16:19 am
Don't click that link unless you want to get instantly nauseous.

This is more than one game, one play and one incident.  Their complete body of work says they can't be trusted to do the right thing on hardly any issue.

To late for spin.  Plus you'll note they don't realllllllyyyyyyyy apologize.  They just explain themselves and how they think they're not wrong.

You can't tell other people how they think!

Plus now they have their little internal networking going on with defenders coming out of the wood work.

How long before it comes out how many of their athletes are legitimately on scholarship?  Note the word 'legitimately'.

Good Lord it's a-p-o-lo-g-i-z-e. ::)

You fall into a long line of posters that need to reach for examples that are not comparable.  People get beat all the time and often badly.  Yet only a few voice displeasure.  There is a reason all this has reached a saturation point.  It's not fiction.

John McD has more class in his pinky toe than the entire staff at Shiloh combined.  Please don't lessen his accomplishments and class with such a low end comparison.

You want truth?   How about a full disclosure on the number of athletes on scholarship at Shiloh?  It's a legit question.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 11:01:37 am
Ok.... so QF.... you're more upset over the "recruiting" issue now.  Make up your mind.... is it running up the score or recruiting?

You've yet to make a legitimate point.

I can't speak to recruiting issues with SC.  I can only state what I know and have experienced myself and what I know is that...... public schools are not immune to "encouraging students" out of their districts to come play for them.

If recruiting is your beef..... then don't be so blind to think that only private schools are the culprits.  I'm not saying they do or don't.... I just know that public schools are not as innocent as most people want to believe or accept. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 11:03:09 am
Quote function issues?

Personally attacking me doesn't aid your cause at all.  Plus Bo Mattingly has been in Shiloh's pocket or vice versa from Day 1.

People are only rallying to a degree because they don't want EVERYONE punished for the actions of Shiloh.  That's understandable.  But by doing so they are not suddenly condoning what Shiloh has done.  That stands alone.  They are truly pompous and that hasn't changed.  They are only now seeing how serious things have gotten and are late doing so due to their own blindness.

And yet another dodge about scholarships?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 11:08:25 am
Quote from: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 11:01:37 am
Ok.... so QF.... you're more upset over the "recruiting" issue now.  Make up your mind.... is it running up the score or recruiting?

You've yet to make a legitimate point.

I can't speak to recruiting issues with SC.  I can only state what I know and have experienced myself and what I know is that...... public schools are not immune to "encouraging students" out of their districts to come play for them.

If recruiting is your beef..... then don't be so blind to think that only private schools are the culprits.  I'm not saying they do or don't.... I just know that public schools are not as innocent as most people want to believe or accept. 
The sum total of the way they are allowed to operate is truly unbalanced.  it's not supposed to be.  They are allowed into a system they otherwise seperated from in practically every other way.  Their manners only emblish the tilted playing field.

I do not defend any public school that does the same.  Yet were are those examples?  Not examples of scores.  But from their opponents? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 06, 2009, 11:16:46 am
Bo Mattingly and his radio show are not the only ones that think the private school issue is ridiculous.  On Drive Time with Randy Rainwater, the hosts and most of the callers think its sour grapes from a few people that have "issues" with Shiloh and private schools in general.

If you aren't good enough, get better, make sure you are doing everything you can do to compete before you start whining. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 06, 2009, 11:16:50 am
Bo Mattingly is the perfect size to fit into someone's pocket.      Thank you for addressing the "apologise" issue.       
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 11:21:10 am
reread my post...there is no 'personal attack'.  :'(

I've simply said the momentum is switching.  Not just Bo Mattingly, but also the Coach Beck and Godby Show and more importantly the callers...

Read (or reread) the press release, they're not defending themselves but they are reiterating the facts. 

It would seem that the real facts are what a lot of people are having a hard time with...takes the air out of the sails.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:03:09 am
Quote function issues?

Personally attacking me doesn't aid your cause at all.  Plus Bo Mattingly has been in Shiloh's pocket or vice versa from Day 1.

People are only rallying to a degree because they don't want EVERYONE punished for the actions of Shiloh.  That's understandable.  But by doing so they are not suddenly condoning what Shiloh has done.  That stands alone.  They are truly pompous and that hasn't changed.  They are only now seeing how serious things have gotten and are late doing so due to their own blindness.

And yet another dodge about scholarships?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 11:27:01 am
So call-in radio is the new Gallup Poll?  The only voters in this deal are the schools themselves.

Plus we all know how knowledgable radio callers are!  ::)  Heck people make fun of them all the time and now they are suddenly sharp?

Again, people want a solution that benefits all and avoids the travesty of what is occuring in NWA.

The 'get better, work harder' argument doesn't apply at all.  I continue to note that no one addresses the real issue of what's a level playing field.  If you think things should be so open minded then you can't turn around and argue the need for classifications either. 
(I yield that's extreme, but on point)

P.S.  Randy Rainwater?  You mean the very one with sidekick Rick Shaffer?  Yeah, that's a non-biased view.  Shaffer is so tied to FBCofS and known as a back slapper in everyone's mind.  Hardly a neutral party.

That just shows the lengths the spin is going to.  Bo and Rick on the front line.  Time to puke.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 11:32:56 am
I'm also surprised to hear that some listen to Beck and Gosby(sic).  Another couple of dinosaurs that don't belong on the air.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 06, 2009, 11:36:27 am
"level playing field"  hmmmmmmmmmm

I've seen the facilities at Bentonville, they are also the largest school in the state.  I think because of these reasons they have an unfair advantage and should be in their own class.  When you are twice as large as the smallest school in your class certainly you have an unfair number advantage so you should either be by yourself or split like Springdale did.

Rick Schaeffer, Bo Mattingly, Coach Crawford they all have agendas that keep them from proving certain points by certain posters correct.  WOW!!   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 11:38:01 am
Good points...people who call in radios shows are no more knowledgeable than those who post on a board...right?

People have opinions and opinions are expressed.

Opinions seem to be moving in favor of Shiloh and PA and comments I've read from this board to Hogville to any call in show seem to support that.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:27:01 am
So call-in radio is the new Gallup Poll?  The only voters in this deal are the schools themselves.

Plus we all know how knowledgable radio callers are!  ::)  Heck people make fun of them all the time and now they are suddenly sharp?

Again, people want a solution that benefits all and avoids the travesty of what is occuring in NWA.

The 'get better, work harder' argument doesn't apply at all.  I continue to note that no one addresses the real issue of what's a level playing field.  If you think things should be so open minded then you can't turn around and argue the need for classifications either. 
(I yield that's extreme, but on point)

P.S.  Randy Rainwater?  You mean the very one with sidekick Rick Shaffer?  Yeah, that's a non-biased view.  Shaffer is so tied to FBCofS and known as a back slapper in everyone's mind.  Hardly a neutral party.

That just shows the lengths the spin is going to.  Bo and Rick on the front line.  Time to puke.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 11:48:19 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 06, 2009, 11:36:27 am
"level playing field"  hmmmmmmmmmm

I've seen the facilities at Bentonville, they are also the largest school in the state.  I think because of these reasons they have an unfair advantage and should be in their own class.  When you are twice as large as the smallest school in your class certainly you have an unfair number advantage so you should either be by yourself or split like Springdale did.

Rick Schaeffer, Bo Mattingly, Coach Crawford they all have agendas that keep them from proving certain points by certain posters correct.  WOW!!  

Maybe you'd like to have 16 classifications.  I surely don't deny Bentonville should split.  It does seem to add to the fact kids LEAVE BHS for a chance to play.  No doubt about it.  Next bullet?  But it doesn't change the fact Shiloh has a much larger advantage relative to who they play in the fact they can get kids from anywere in NWA.

Rick and Bo have been bashed by many for years.  Suddenly they've seen the light?  Both will tell you they're connected with Shiloh.  They are biased.  That's a fact.  Just because they have a forum that they can control and speak freely gives them no more weight than anyone else.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 06, 2009, 12:01:44 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:48:19 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 06, 2009, 11:36:27 am
"level playing field"  hmmmmmmmmmm

I've seen the facilities at Bentonville, they are also the largest school in the state.  I think because of these reasons they have an unfair advantage and should be in their own class.  When you are twice as large as the smallest school in your class certainly you have an unfair number advantage so you should either be by yourself or split like Springdale did.

Rick Schaeffer, Bo Mattingly, Coach Crawford they all have agendas that keep them from proving certain points by certain posters correct.  WOW!!  

Maybe you'd like to have 16 classifications.  I surely don't deny Bentonville should split.  It does seem to add to the fact kids LEAVE BHS for a chance to play.  No doubt about it.  Next bullet?  But it doesn't change the fact Shiloh has a much larger advantage relative to who they play in the fact they can get kids from anywere in NWA.

Rick and Bo have been bashed by many for years.  Suddenly they've seen the light?  Both will tell you they're connected with Shiloh.  They are biased.  That's a fact.  Just because they have a forum that they can control and speak freely gives them no more weight than anyone else.

I never brought Rick into this you did, personally I don't like the little weasel.  I was talking about RR and the callers.  Although some are idiots, many are just like some posters on here, they still have "opinions" and those opinions think the private school issue is ridiculous.  I am NOT a fan of SC, PA or any other private school, but it is very well known that they are not the only schools that recruit.  It is well known throughout the state that kids transfer to programs all the time that are better in this sport or that sport than the school they are supposed to be playing at.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: DT on May 06, 2009, 12:01:45 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:48:19 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 06, 2009, 11:36:27 am
"level playing field"  hmmmmmmmmmm

I've seen the facilities at Bentonville, they are also the largest school in the state.  I think because of these reasons they have an unfair advantage and should be in their own class.  When you are twice as large as the smallest school in your class certainly you have an unfair number advantage so you should either be by yourself or split like Springdale did.

Rick Schaeffer, Bo Mattingly, Coach Crawford they all have agendas that keep them from proving certain points by certain posters correct.  WOW!!  

Maybe you'd like to have 16 classifications.  I surely don't deny Bentonville should split.  It does seem to add to the fact kids LEAVE BHS for a chance to play.  No doubt about it.  Next bullet?  But it doesn't change the fact Shiloh has a much larger advantage relative to who they play in the fact they can get kids from anywere in NWA.

Rick and Bo have been bashed by many for years.  Suddenly they've seen the light?  Both will tell you they're connected with Shiloh.  They are biased.  That's a fact.  Just because they have a forum that they can control and speak freely gives them no more weight than anyone else.

The morning and mid day shows on 103.7 in central AR also seem to be against this proposal for the most part.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 12:05:53 pm
Actually that information was provided to the AAA by all private schools.  Don't know how they will use it.

But again it is a no win situation.  If they said all of them (like how could they afford a private school if no one pays tuition) adn they meet the rules, then you will say the rules should change.  If they said "none" you'd say "so what"
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 12:06:34 pm
In Central Arkansas, there are so many privates that would be expected and more understandable.  It's a different atmosphere.

I bet you many of those same people are anti-NWA in some respects though and they are simply being loyal to LRC,CAC, PA, HA, Catholic and the rest.  Not to start a whole different topic.  :)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 06, 2009, 12:17:01 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 05, 2009, 10:15:43 pm
Well don't you think you ought to be sure you look only at the school that field teams, not the total number of schools.  For example, the percentage of private schools is higher for Tennis than football.

Once you get the data, how do you plan to use it.  If private schools make up 15% of the schools and take 18% of the championships is that bad?  How about 11 and 22.  Or have you just decided it is "bad" and whatever numbers exist support that.

How do magnet schools do.  How do High Schools in Howard County do?  How do schools with turf fields do?  If you find that school with large minority popluations win more championships, what do you do?  Ban them?
I can't find the link, but I read in an article just a few days ago and someone from AAA was quoted as to saying that one of the reason this whole seperation issue has caught fire was because the percentage of availible state titles being won by private schools has increased to 30 %. A few years ago it was 8 or 9%.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 12:17:02 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:48:19 am
I surely don't deny Bentonville should split.  It does seem to add to the fact kids LEAVE BHS for a chance to play.  No doubt about it. 

Can you help we with this one.  Since public school kids must attend school in their own district, where do the Bentonville students go?  Shiloh? (That should be easy to check if there is more than 1 or 2).  Do they go to other 7A school or pop into Berryville or Gravette.?

Is there a choice issue or do they move?

I hope the whole board laughs if you say that it is common practice for a family with a 2nd or 3rd string football player to sell their danged house (at a loss now) to move 25 miles further from work and church just so Herbert get more playing time
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 06, 2009, 12:17:07 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 12:06:34 pm

I bet you many of those same people are anti-NWA in some respects though and they are simply being loyal to LRC,CAC, PA, HA, Catholic and the rest.  Not to start a whole different topic.  :)


actually it's quite the opposite down here.  MANY folks are very anti-PA and CAC to an extend.  LRC, Episcopal, Lutheran and Catholic/MSM don't receive too much negative comments.  And most "public" school types in Searcy don't care too much for HA. 

I don't see what the real issue is other than SC is kicking butt right now. 
If the folks down here were "anti-NWA" then don't you think they'd be in favor of the proposal?

All schools "recruit"
there are kids in every school that get "incentives" to be there

most kids/families that attend PA, SC and CAC are lumped together as "snobs" the "haves" in our society and a lot of us "average" folks don't like that.

what would be the benefit of excluding the privates from playoff action?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ricepig on May 06, 2009, 12:19:03 pm
I don't think this proposal will pass as written, but it will put a whole lot more scrutiny on SC and maybe PA. Everyone knows that everyone recruits, but if the players, parents, and schools abide by the rules as they are written, then there is "no harm, no foul." Now will these rules get changed, I think that is the question.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 06, 2009, 12:24:05 pm
Everyone thought I transferred to Gentry before my freshman year because they beat us in the jr. high district tourney our 8th grade year.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 01:32:55 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 12:17:02 pm
Is there a choice issue or do they move?
For one, a starter for basketball.  No move.  But you missed the point.  That option exists due to the number of bigger schools.  Not to mention it's the only private school playing. 

People continue to miss the fact practically everyone in NWA can go to Shiloh and Shiloh alone as a private school choice.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 01:42:58 pm
Yeah, but you are saying Bentonville students not only have the same option, but it is free.  Whatever school they go to is taking students without regard to residency.  THE HAVE NO BOUNDARIES.  BAD SCHOOL!

Makes me wonder about Springdale, Har-Ber, Fayetteville's rules as well.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 01:44:24 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 06, 2009, 12:17:07 pm
If the folks down here were "anti-NWA" then don't you think they'd be in favor of the proposal?
The quantity of privates schools, the length of time they've been around, the subsequent number of alumni and the fact they actually have competition amongst themselves differs greatly from the Shiloh situation.

Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 06, 2009, 12:17:07 pm
All schools "recruit"
there are kids in every school that get "incentives" to be there
Do you see me using "recruit" as a basis?  Fact is they have kids on scholarships playing sports.  As I have always said if some public school does a similar activity they are wrong as well.

I don't defend public schools that do such activities.  Yet you speak hypothetically and don't bring a substantitive example to the discussion.  Athletes on scholarships are a substantial part of their program.  Even when the scholarships come through 'proper channels'. 

Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 06, 2009, 12:17:07 pm
most kids/families that attend PA, SC and CAC are lumped together as "snobs" the "haves" in our society and a lot of us "average" folks don't like that.
Which matters little if true or false as it pertains to this subject.  I personally like and dislike people on both sides of the spectrum.  It's not used as basis for how I view the world.  Things are case by case and person by person.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 01:47:44 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 01:42:58 pm
Yeah, but you are saying Bentonville students not only have the same option, but it is free.  Whatever school they go to is taking students without regard to residency.  THE HAVE NO BOUNDARIES.  BAD SCHOOL!

Makes me wonder about Springdale, Har-Ber, Fayetteville's rules as well.

Say what?  You need to slow down big fella.  I never said that BHS was taking students 'regardless of residency'. I said regardless of boundaries students Can LEAVE Bentonville for Shiloh.  You've let yourself drift here.  You asked for one, I gave you one.  Played in BHS forever then without a move went to Shiloh.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 02:18:37 pm
Everyone can go to Shiloh assuming the parents can afford the $6800 tuition (and still pay taxes for the public school support)...so practically everyone in NWA CAN'T go to Shiloh, only 192 do.

QF...

Earlier you posted something like...John Mcd has more class in his pinky toe than the entire Shiloh coaching staff...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

Your quote "People continue to miss the fact practically everyone in NWA can go to Shiloh and Shiloh alone as a private school choice."
[/quote]
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 02:37:35 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 01:44:24 pm
Fact is they have kids on scholarships playing sports.

Which would only be an advantage if everyone on the other team was paying to go to school, which they're not.

Once again, there are already AAA rules in place regarding how financial aid is to be handled.  If you know for fact that they are breaking those rules, report them.  That would be a realistic reason to punish them.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 02:41:05 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 01:47:44 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 01:42:58 pm
Yeah, but you are saying Bentonville students not only have the same option, but it is free.  Whatever school they go to is taking students without regard to residency.  THE HAVE NO BOUNDARIES.  BAD SCHOOL!

Makes me wonder about Springdale, Har-Ber, Fayetteville's rules as well.

Say what?  You need to slow down big fella.  I never said that BHS was taking students 'regardless of residency'. I said regardless of boundaries students Can LEAVE Bentonville for Shiloh.  You've let yourself drift here.  You asked for one, I gave you one.  Played in BHS forever then without a move went to Shiloh.

My mistake, I thought you mean they had left Bentonville and gone to a less competive public school.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 02:51:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:08:25 am
Quote from: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 11:01:37 am
Ok.... so QF.... you're more upset over the "recruiting" issue now.  Make up your mind.... is it running up the score or recruiting?

You've yet to make a legitimate point.

I can't speak to recruiting issues with SC.  I can only state what I know and have experienced myself and what I know is that...... public schools are not immune to "encouraging students" out of their districts to come play for them.

If recruiting is your beef..... then don't be so blind to think that only private schools are the culprits.  I'm not saying they do or don't.... I just know that public schools are not as innocent as most people want to believe or accept. 
The sum total of the way they are allowed to operate is truly unbalanced.  it's not supposed to be.  They are allowed into a system they otherwise seperated from in practically every other way.  Their manners only emblish the tilted playing field.

I do not defend any public school that does the same.  Yet were are those examples?  Not examples of scores.  But from their opponents? 

QF.... I've sent you 2 messages but I'm not sure if you are getting them or maybe you just don't want to reply. 

I totally don't understand what you are asking in this last paragraph. The questions/statements are confusing so could you clarify? 

Also, in another post you spelled "separated" incorrectly as well as another word.... can't remember what it was. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 03:10:14 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 02:18:37 pm
Everyone can go to Shiloh assuming the parents can afford the $6800 tuition (and still pay taxes for the public school support)...so practically everyone in NWA CAN'T go to Shiloh, only 192 do.

QF...

Earlier you posted something like...John Mcd has more class in his pinky toe than the entire Shiloh coaching staff...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

Your quote "People continue to miss the fact practically everyone in NWA can go to Shiloh and Shiloh alone as a private school choice."
[/quote]

You need help with that quote function?

In regards to your only 192 do, care to spit out how many actually couldn't but are there anyway?  Especially as to athletics?

You don't need to spend time with someone to see class.  When you have it, it oozes out and people tend to like you more because of they way you live and treat your opponent.  Even those that you defeat on a regular basis. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 03:11:30 pm
Quote from: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 02:51:42 pm
QF.... I've sent you 2 messages but I'm not sure if you are getting them or maybe you just don't want to reply. 
I've got the second one.  I replied to you.  Not sure about that first one.  No others in the box.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 03:46:22 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 03:10:14 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 02:18:37 pm
Everyone can go to Shiloh assuming the parents can afford the $6800 tuition (and still pay taxes for the public school support)...so practically everyone in NWA CAN'T go to Shiloh, only 192 do.

QF...

Earlier you posted something like...John Mcd has more class in his pinky toe than the entire Shiloh coaching staff...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

Your quote "People continue to miss the fact practically everyone in NWA can go to Shiloh and Shiloh alone as a private school choice."

You need help with that quote function?

In regards to your only 192 do, care to spit out how many actually couldn't but are there anyway?  Especially as to athletics?

You don't need to spend time with someone to see class.  When you have it, it oozes out and people tend to like you more because of they way you live and treat your opponent.  Even those that you defeat on a regular basis. 
[/quote]

Enlighten me.
Is that 192 students or 192 males.
Just guessing 80% + participation in FB
Guessing 5K a year tuition.

How many would YOU guess are on "scholarship.?"

Surely just some of the potential starters.  I mean  you wouldn't want to pay $20,000 for high school for some back-up punter woud you.

More interesting is the ones that are there from K - 1.  Do you suppose they commit $70,000 for 13 years for all Kindergarteners, or only for those they can determine will be starters in 9 years.

If they do make the mistake and offer a kid a $70K ride, what do they do when the kids decides golf or tennis, or just academics.  Do they ask him to leave, or just take back the scholarship.

Or do the schloraships only come into play for the five 7 + graders who transfer each year.  Or is the number of transfers much less.

Since no one can provide much specifics, just trying to get an idea of the magnitude.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 03:54:36 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 11:08:25 am
I do not defend any public school that does the same.  Yet were are those examples?  Not examples of scores.  But from their opponents? 

JLHB, I'm assuming you mean this so I'll explain further.

I don't condone recruiting by any school.  Subtle or blatant by a public school any more than I do a private one.

People repeatedly throw out scores of PA and JCity games as comparisons.  The fact is you don't see hardly any uproar.  People like to use those as examples but they don't fit the same mold because the teams involved on the winning end are not pompous and overall disrespectful.  My post referenced none of their opponents are coming forth due to the way the winning team treated them.

People forget the vote was 18-6 in the district.  It shows you that within this defined area it's a problem and schools that don't even play Shiloh recognize it.

I want to add for clarification I have no affiliation with any school that Shiloh has beaten in the past 10 years.  So any thought that I'm grinding an axe from some scoreboard whipping is wrong. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:07:22 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 03:54:36 pm
People forget the vote was 18-6 in the district.  It shows you that within this defined area it's a problem and schools that don't even play Shiloh recognize it.

No, it shows you that 18 people believe one of the following to be true:

1.  The Shiloh people are poor sports.
2.  Shiloh actively recruits.
3.  Shiloh offers athletic scholarships.
4.  I don't like rich people.
5.  They think they are better than us.
6.  Their coach makes too much.
7.  Their facilities are too nice.
8.  I don't like FBC.
9.  Someone with a Shiloh sticker on her car stole my parking spot at Wal Mart.
10. If their kids are too good for our school, let them have their own championship.
11. I don't like their fancy bus.
12. Shiloh posters on FF drive me crazy.

The list could go on and on.  You could read this board for 5 minutes to find 18 people that agree with one or all of those.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:13:07 pm
It shows 18 schools believe or know. 

But a good Top 12 though!  :)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:14:35 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:13:07 pm
It shows 18 schools believe or know. 

Bingo.

That's what is so wrong with this.  None of it is based on fact.  It is based entirely on perception and assumption.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:17:54 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:14:35 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:13:07 pm
It shows 18 schools believe or know. 

Bingo.

That's what is so wrong with this.  None of it is based on fact.  It is based entirely on perception and assumption.
You have no idea what each of those schools knows or doesn't know to be true by their own knowledge.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:22:02 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:17:54 pm
You have no idea what each of those schools knows or doesn't know to be true by their own knowledge.

If they do, there are already rules in place for those situations.  Enforce them.

What I do know, is that in all the time I have been involved with private schools, I have not seen or heard of a single instance of anything against the rules.  That doesn't merit separation from the playoffs because of what some perceive that another school does.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:29:47 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:22:02 pm
If they do, there are already rules in place for those situations.  Enforce them.
In the perfect world, absolutely.  Some are pretty good at applying leverage while all the while walking the thin line.  It's naive to think all things are on the up and up for all cases.

Such a litigious society doesn't help either.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:30:13 pm
you didn't answer the questions...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

since you probably don't know any of them its just your opinion...and opinions are good but they're not facts.  That's been the problem with the entire thread...very few facts and a lot of biased opinions.  When the facts are presented you refuse to accept them.

I'm not aware of any athlete at Shiloh who is unable to pay their tuition.

and no i don't need ehlp with the quote functions, but thanks for asking...

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 03:10:14 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 02:18:37 pm
Everyone can go to Shiloh assuming the parents can afford the $6800 tuition (and still pay taxes for the public school support)...so practically everyone in NWA CAN'T go to Shiloh, only 192 do.

QF...

Earlier you posted something like...John Mcd has more class in his pinky toe than the entire Shiloh coaching staff...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

Your quote "People continue to miss the fact practically everyone in NWA can go to Shiloh and Shiloh alone as a private school choice."

You need help with that quote function?

In regards to your only 192 do, care to spit out how many actually couldn't but are there anyway?  Especially as to athletics?

You don't need to spend time with someone to see class.  When you have it, it oozes out and people tend to like you more because of they way you live and treat your opponent.  Even those that you defeat on a regular basis. 
[/quote]
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: c hog on May 06, 2009, 04:33:29 pm
QF it has become painfully obvious that you and the Shiloh haters have no facts only accusations. The video proves that Shiloh did all it could to make the game respectable (short of falling down on purpose on every play). Berryville should really have kept their mouth shut, that is embarrassing.  Being a good football team is not a crime. This is looking like a jealousy issue with you. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:35:22 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:29:47 pm
It's naive to think all things are on the up and up for all cases.

It's more naive to arbitrarily punish all private schools based on the perception of one or two of them.


I don't remember the outcry about sportsmanship when Booneville put up 70 on Shiloh in 2004.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:37:50 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:30:13 pm
you didn't answer the questions...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

since you probably don't know any of them its just your opinion...and opinions are good but they're not facts.  That's been the problem with the entire thread...very few facts and a lot of biased opinions.  When the facts are presented you refuse to accept them.

I'm not aware of any athlete at Shiloh who is unable to pay their tuition.

and no i don't need ehlp with the quote functions, but thanks for asking...
Their actions speak for themselves.  I've seen what I've seen.  I know what I know.  Eating dinner with them won't change that at all.  It's obvious they don't think they've ever done anything wrong.  Even as they spin it now they are unyielding as to any wrong doing of any kind.  ::)  Don't think for a minute there are not some coaches out there withholding info either just because they are trying to be respectful of their profession in general.  But the wall is losing bricks.

I'm sorry you don't know of any athlete that has tuition assistance.  But your lack of knowing doesn't mean there isn't.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:38:26 pm
The 190 was a number I beleive I read somewhere else (Hogville or earlier in this thread)...

The Shiloh AD mentioned a number in the 170 range on the radio today, his answer is better than mine. 

I don't know the split between male/female. 

I don't know the level of participation of the males in football at the HS level.

All the questions are way over my head, I don't know those answers...and since they are a Private those answers are not readily available...

-----------------------------------------------------------
Enlighten me.
Is that 192 students or 192 males.
Just guessing 80% + participation in FB
Guessing 5K a year tuition.

How many would YOU guess are on "scholarship.?"

Surely just some of the potential starters.  I mean  you wouldn't want to pay $20,000 for high school for some back-up punter woud you.

More interesting is the ones that are there from K - 1.  Do you suppose they commit $70,000 for 13 years for all Kindergarteners, or only for those they can determine will be starters in 9 years.

If they do make the mistake and offer a kid a $70K ride, what do they do when the kids decides golf or tennis, or just academics.  Do they ask him to leave, or just take back the scholarship.

Or do the schloraships only come into play for the five 7 + graders who transfer each year.  Or is the number of transfers much less.

Since no one can provide much specifics, just trying to get an idea of the magnitude.


[/quote]
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:39:19 pm
Quote from: c hog on May 06, 2009, 04:33:29 pm
QF it has become painfully obvious that you and the Shiloh haters have no facts only accusations. The video proves that Shiloh did all it could to make the game respectable (short of falling down on purpose on every play). Berryville should really have kept their mouth shut, that is embarrassing.  Being a good football team is not a crime. This is looking like a jealousy issue with you. 
One more time, it's not just one game.  They didn't vote for the other 17 schools.  Jealousy implies want.  That would be false.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:39:31 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:37:50 pm
I'm sorry you don't know of any athlete that has tuition assistance.  But your lack of knowing doesn't mean there isn't.

There's no rule against an athlete having tuition assistance.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:35:22 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:29:47 pm
It's naive to think all things are on the up and up for all cases.

It's more naive to arbitrarily punish all private schools based on the perception of one or two of them.


I don't remember the outcry about sportsmanship when Booneville put up 70 on Shiloh in 2004.
Did Shiloh have zero?  Plus I thought there was an outcry.  I again won't condone any other blantant attempt by anyone to do the same.

Even if it's to Shiloh.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:43:27 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:39:31 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:37:50 pm
I'm sorry you don't know of any athlete that has tuition assistance.  But your lack of knowing doesn't mean there isn't.

There's no rule against an athlete having tuition assistance.
We going back to the start on this again?  I'll simply say that is in place for academic reasons and some have found a way to use it as a tool for an athletic purpose. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:43:52 pm
What actions? 

So you don't know them.
Never met them.
Never spent time with them.

but you have them all figured out...

better that you are a moderator and not a prosecutor.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:37:50 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:30:13 pm
you didn't answer the questions...

How many of the Shiloh coaches do you actually know? 
How many have you ever personally met and spent time with?
How many times have you even been on their campus to see what their day is like?

since you probably don't know any of them its just your opinion...and opinions are good but they're not facts.  That's been the problem with the entire thread...very few facts and a lot of biased opinions.  When the facts are presented you refuse to accept them.

I'm not aware of any athlete at Shiloh who is unable to pay their tuition.

and no i don't need help with the quote functions, but thanks for asking...
Their actions speak for themselves.  I've seen what I've seen.  I know what I know.  Eating dinner with them won't change that at all.  It's obvious they don't think they've ever done anything wrong.  Even as they spin it now they are unyielding as to any wrong doing of any kind.  ::)  Don't think for a minute there are not some coaches out there withholding info either just because they are trying to be respectful of their profession in general.  But the wall is losing bricks.

I'm sorry you don't know of any athlete that has tuition assistance.  But your lack of knowing doesn't mean there isn't.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:44:22 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Did Shiloh have zero? 

They ended up with 28.  I don't recall how many were scored late.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Plus I thought there was an outcry.  I again won't condone any other blantant attempt by anyone to do the same.

Not that I recall.  Definitely not from other schools.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Even if it's to Shiloh.

For some reason I have a hard time believing that.  Have I missed your posts railing against other schools who run it up?  I know I've missed the AAA proposals to remove those schools from the playoffs.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:46:20 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:43:27 pm
We going back to the start on this again?  I'll simply say that is in place for academic reasons and some have found a way to use it as a tool for an athletic purpose. 

As I understand, it is not for athletics nor academics.  It is simply based on financial need.  The decisions are made by a third party organization.  If a family can't afford to go to school there, I think it's great that it's available equally to a QB or a tuba player.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:46:37 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:43:52 pm
What actions? 

So you don't know them.
Never met them.
Never spent time with them.

but you have them all figured out...

better that you are a moderator and not a prosecutor.
People certainly are allowed to judge on what they see and knos.  I also know things not in the limelight.  Don't care if you know what they are or not.

I'm not the reason this proposal got 18 schools to vote for it.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:49:41 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:44:22 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Did Shiloh have zero? 

They ended up with 28.  I don't recall how many were scored late.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Plus I thought there was an outcry.  I again won't condone any other blantant attempt by anyone to do the same.

Not that I recall.  Definitely not from other schools.

Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
Even if it's to Shiloh.

For some reason I have a hard time believing that.  Have I missed your posts railing against other schools who run it up?  I know I've missed the AAA proposals to remove those schools from the playoffs.
So Booneville won by 42?  That's your example?

You brought it up and don't know the details?

As for you not thinking I'd not condone a 77-0 trouncing of Shiloh, I can't help it that you don't. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:50:20 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:39:19 pm
Quote from: c hog on May 06, 2009, 04:33:29 pm
QF it has become painfully obvious that you and the Shiloh haters have no facts only accusations. The video proves that Shiloh did all it could to make the game respectable (short of falling down on purpose on every play). Berryville should really have kept their mouth shut, that is embarrassing.  Being a good football team is not a crime. This is looking like a jealousy issue with you. 
One more time, it's not just one game.  They didn't vote for the other 17 schools.  Jealousy implies want.  That would be false.

Jealousy is (Webster) = a jealous attitude or disposition.
Envy implies want or resentful desire for anothers possession

...just having fun
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 04:52:26 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:49:41 pm
So Booneville won by 42?  That's your example?

You brought it up and don't know the details?

It was almost 5 years ago.  Not an easy box score to locate on the web.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:54:08 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:50:20 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:39:19 pm
Quote from: c hog on May 06, 2009, 04:33:29 pm
QF it has become painfully obvious that you and the Shiloh haters have no facts only accusations. The video proves that Shiloh did all it could to make the game respectable (short of falling down on purpose on every play). Berryville should really have kept their mouth shut, that is embarrassing.  Being a good football team is not a crime. This is looking like a jealousy issue with you. 
One more time, it's not just one game.  They didn't vote for the other 17 schools.  Jealousy implies want.  That would be false.

Jealousy is (Webster) = a jealous attitude or disposition.
Envy implies want or resentful desire for anothers possession

...just having fun
So 'want' isn't a disposition? ;)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 04:56:12 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:52:26 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:49:41 pm
So Booneville won by 42?  That's your example?

You brought it up and don't know the details?

It was almost 5 years ago.  Not an easy box score to locate on the web.
You brought it up as though you keyed on it specifically.   At the time, that game was a bravado battle for sure between those two schools.

I just don't think it applied in the fashion you used it.  But again, if they something was over the line late in the game it was wrong.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:59:21 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:54:08 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 06, 2009, 04:50:20 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:39:19 pm
Quote from: c hog on May 06, 2009, 04:33:29 pm
QF it has become painfully obvious that you and the Shiloh haters have no facts only accusations. The video proves that Shiloh did all it could to make the game respectable (short of falling down on purpose on every play). Berryville should really have kept their mouth shut, that is embarrassing.  Being a good football team is not a crime. This is looking like a jealousy issue with you. 
One more time, it's not just one game.  They didn't vote for the other 17 schools.  Jealousy implies want.  That would be false.

Jealousy is (Webster) = a jealous attitude or disposition.
Envy implies want or resentful desire for anothers possession

...just having fun
So 'want' isn't a disposition? ;)

Actually in this case disposition would be attitude or temperment... ::)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 05:02:59 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:56:12 pm
You brought it up as though you keyed on it specifically.   At the time, that game was a bravado battle for sure between those two schools.

I just don't think it applied in the fashion you used it.  But again, if they something was over the line late in the game it was wrong.

My point is that if a public school runs it up on another public school, there is usually little or no outcry.  If there is any, it dies down quickly.  It certainly does not bring about AAA proposals to remove the team from the playoffs.

Case in point:  Look at these Junction City scores since 2006.
47-0
70-0
43-0
50-0
66-0
45-0
56-6
68-0
58-7
55-6
48-0
67-0
48-6
68-8
48-0
51-0

If you're curious, that combined score is 888-33.

They have won more than 1/3 of their games since 2006 by 40+.

Again, I have no problem with JC.  They're very good.  They score more than Shiloh, and no one cares.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 05:09:44 pm
Exactly.  The way they do it is balanced and their opponents know that.  That's not a parallel comparison.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 06, 2009, 05:10:49 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 05:09:44 pm
The way they do it is balanced and their opponents know that.

What?!  The way they do it is balanced?

Balance doesn't matter when you're one of the 5 teams that lost by 60 to them during that span.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 06, 2009, 05:17:29 pm
It's not the same.  Now if they score late and their opponents take exception to it, then in those instances it is.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 05:38:27 pm
"Balanced"?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm
I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.
1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.
2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.

Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 06, 2009, 05:46:59 pm
John,
I am confused. I thought you stated at the beginning of this thread that private schools were not allowed to give scholarships to athletes. Can they give athletic scholarships, or not?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 06, 2009, 05:48:33 pm
Booneville hung 70 on Shiloh??
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:49:22 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 06, 2009, 05:46:59 pm
John,
I am confused. I thought you stated at the beginning of this thread that private schools were not allowed to give scholarships to athletes. Can they give athletic scholarships, or not?
not per say.  Scholles are for academics, you don't think some players are on those???
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 06:09:19 pm
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm
I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.
1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.
2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.

Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.

Non starter - a few of the schools don't even have Jr Highs.  A kid gets molested at one school and the school won't take action, so the student changes schools.  The Spanish teacher at your school is the principal's wife and can even speak Spanish well.

No system is going tell ninth or 10th graders that they will forfeit their entire athletic career if they change schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 06:10:44 pm
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm
I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.
1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.
2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.

Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.

So.... if my husband gets transferred to Central Arkansas.... and my son or daughter attendeds Har-Ber.... or let's say Berryville.....

and we move down here and decide that we don't want him or her to go to any of the public schools and would prefer they go to LRC or CAC or PA or MSM..... and they are in 9th grade.... and they are good in a particular sport......

You're saying that they should be punished because dear old dad got a transfer.

Is that fair? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 06, 2009, 06:15:57 pm
For the last time, This isn't about scholarships or advantages. It's over lousy sportsmanship. Conway has an advantage over Cabot in that Conway tends to have more athletes in their city. NE Arkansas has good basketball because it is the main thing there. NW Arkansas is the exact opposite. Private schools have advantages, so do public schools. It is a matter of choice. If you leave somewhere without a private school, you choice is limited to your city's school. It all boils down to not knowing how to win and how to lose. Ask any coach and they'll tell you that.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 06:21:54 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 06, 2009, 05:46:59 pm
John,
I am confused. I thought you stated at the beginning of this thread that private schools were not allowed to give scholarships to athletes. Can they give athletic scholarships, or not?

Scholarship = money for excellence or expertise in an area, without regard to need.
Financial aid = funds available to students who can demonstrate significant need.

To my knowledge, at this time, NO PRIVATE SCHOOL OFFERS ATHLETIC, ACADEMIC, CHORAL, BAND OR ANY OTHER SCHOLARSHIP.

Financial aid mean just that.  (I don't know if all schools use this, but most do) A family feels out a form with assets and income.  The form is sent to the school.  The school sends it out of state to an organization that evaluates need.  They send back approval if granted.  If the school has enough in their fund, and many have tens of thousands set aside for aid, the aid is given.

If Sam Walton had a relative who could run 4.0, bench 1000 pounds, dunk flatfooted HE COULD NOT BE OFFERED A SCHOLARSHIP - there is no need!  You can't just give someone money to come to your school.

Twins could apply for financial aid.  One an athlete, one a Goth.  The forms go out and either they get aid or they don't.  They get exactly the same amount.

(I will grant you this, when parents sit in the stands for years and one mentions that they wish they could send their kids to Private Plus but can't afford it, the Private Plus parent may be more likely to say, "You know, you should call the school.  They offer some financial aid."  So maybe athletes are more likely to find out about it.  I don't know)

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 06:32:08 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 06:09:19 pm
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm
I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.
1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.
2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.

Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.

Non starter - a few of the schools don't even have Jr Highs.  A kid gets molested at one school and the school won't take action, so the student changes schools.  The Spanish teacher at your school is the principal's wife and can even speak Spanish well.

No system is going tell ninth or 10th graders that they will forfeit their entire athletic career if they change schools.
Are you saying private schools do not offer 8th or 9th grade?  I agree some schools to not have a per say jr high, but most folks know what grades you are talking about.

You can call it fiancial aid if you want.  Plus it doesn't just happen by a parent telling another parent about the fiancial aid it may can offer.  I have been around some of that talk.  We all just laughed it off.  Still are for that matter!
Quote from: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 06:10:44 pm<br />
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm<br />I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.<br />1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.<br />2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.<br /><br />Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.<br />
<br /><br />So.... if my husband gets transferred to Central Arkansas.... and my son or daughter attendeds Har-Ber.... or let's say Berryville..... <br /><br />and we move down here and decide that we don't want him or her to go to any of the public schools and would prefer they go to LRC or CAC or PA or MSM..... and they are in 9th grade.... and they are good in a particular sport......<br /><br />You're saying that they should be punished because dear old dad got a transfer. <br /><br />Is that fair?  <br />
Bingo you got it!!

My personal thoughts is only punish the privates schools that are not following the rules.  Leave the rest alone.  We loved playing PA, CAC and LRC. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 06, 2009, 06:32:27 pm
The Jeopardy answer is:

Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
DeSoto School
West Memphis Christian

Question is:

Which Arkansas private schools are already a member of a private school athletic association?




http://www.mpsa.org/default2.php

(The MPSA has member schools from Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 07:16:52 pm
The Jeopardy answer is:

Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
DeSoto School
West Memphis Christian

Question is:

Which Arkansas private schools are within 10 miles of the Mississippi River?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 07:19:31 pm
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 06:32:08 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 06:09:19 pm
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm
I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.
1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.
2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.

Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.

Non starter - a few of the schools don't even have Jr Highs.  A kid gets molested at one school and the school won't take action, so the student changes schools.  The Spanish teacher at your school is the principal's wife and can even speak Spanish well.

No system is going tell ninth or 10th graders that they will forfeit their entire athletic career if they change schools.
Are you saying private schools do not offer 8th or 9th grade?  I agree some schools to not have a per say jr high, but most folks know what grades you are talking about.

You can call it fiancial aid if you want.  Plus it doesn't just happen by a parent telling another parent about the fiancial aid it may can offer.  I have been around some of that talk.  We all just laughed it off.  Still are for that matter!
Quote from: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 06:10:44 pm<br />
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm<br />I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.<br />1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.<br />2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.<br /><br />Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.<br />
<br /><br />So.... if my husband gets transferred to Central Arkansas.... and my son or daughter attendeds Har-Ber.... or let's say Berryville..... <br /><br />and we move down here and decide that we don't want him or her to go to any of the public schools and would prefer they go to LRC or CAC or PA or MSM..... and they are in 9th grade.... and they are good in a particular sport......<br /><br />You're saying that they should be punished because dear old dad got a transfer. <br /><br />Is that fair?  <br />
Bingo you got it!!

My personal thoughts is only punish the privates schools that are not following the rules.  Leave the rest alone.  We loved playing PA, CAC and LRC. 

I was thinking primarily of Catholic and MSM.  No real way to play Jr High ball.  Some HS start in 9th grade others in 10th.  There are already rules in place about transferring after 10th grade.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 07:25:20 pm
Yeah transfer before July 1st!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 07:46:43 pm
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 06:32:08 pm
Quote from: JLHB on May 06, 2009, 06:10:44 pm<br />
Quote from: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 05:39:35 pm<br />I heard Jimmy "the Freak" Haas this afternoon.  He has a sports show here in the River Valley it comes on at 4 pm.  He said something today that has made more sense than anything.  What he said is really a couple of ideas.<br />1.  No scholles for students who play athletics.<br />2.  No one can play High school sports if they didn't attend say elementary or jr high.  Only exceptions are those who move from another state and attended private schools to begin with.<br /><br />Any one of those two will cut out alot of the issues that are occuring.<br />
<br /><br />So.... if my husband gets transferred to Central Arkansas.... and my son or daughter attendeds Har-Ber.... or let's say Berryville..... <br /><br />and we move down here and decide that we don't want him or her to go to any of the public schools and would prefer they go to LRC or CAC or PA or MSM..... and they are in 9th grade.... and they are good in a particular sport......<br /><br />You're saying that they should be punished because dear old dad got a transfer. <br /><br />Is that fair?  <br />
Bingo you got it!!

My personal thoughts is only punish the privates schools that are not following the rules.  Leave the rest alone.  We loved playing PA, CAC and LRC. 

So my daughter who is totally innocent of any wrong doing, and wants a good education in addition to doing something she enjoys and is good at, should be punished.  Gee.......  that's a different kind of mentality than I'm used to.

You are joking, aren't you?  You don't really think that is fair to her or her parents who work hard and want the best for their child?  Now keep in mind that these parents are paying for her to go to school.  No financial aid.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 06, 2009, 07:53:17 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 06, 2009, 07:16:52 pm
The Jeopardy answer is:

Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
DeSoto School
West Memphis Christian

Question is:

Which Arkansas private schools are within 10 miles of the Mississippi River?

Some of their Louisiana member schools are scattered across north Louisiana.  The farthest west is in Minden which is within 30 miles of Shreveport.  The Minden school (Glenbrook) was in their classification's tri-state football championship each of the last two years and won it two years ago.

I would think the MPSA would love to further expand into the natural state.  They do a pretty good job of grouping their conferences to reduce travel requirements.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: On the Move on May 06, 2009, 07:53:55 pm
I'm just saying what the talk on the radio show was as far as a better approach.  Their will never be a happy middle for the public vs private school and sports.  I personally could careless.  I still think if a school public or private is doing things not by the book.  Handle them one on one.  Don't lump them all together.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 06, 2009, 08:58:35 pm
you know one thing that hasn't been addressed here is "how competitive was Berryville last season"?  did they field a decent team and just get out played and out scored by Shiloh?  Or were they just not very good and they are whining because the eventual state champ kicked their tales.

Berryville was 3-7 losing two games to 3A competition, winning only 2 conf games.  I don't know about y'all but where I'm from a bottom of the class team as far as wins and losses usually does get their butts kicked by the state champs, that's just how it works. 

Yellville-Summit (3A-4)      Lost 20-28
Marshall (3A-4)                 Lost 21-29
Green Forest (3A-4)          Won 17-15  
Shiloh Christian (4A-1)*      Lost 0-65
Huntsville (4A-1)*             Lost 14-16
Farmington (4A-1)*           Lost 0-35
Prairie Grove (4A-1)*         Lost 21-34
Gentry (4A-1)*                 Won 33-7  
Gavette (4A-1)*                 Lost 8-42
Pea Ridge (4A-1)*               Won 27-8  
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Miner Nation on May 06, 2009, 10:09:37 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:35:22 pm
I don't remember the outcry about sportsmanship when Booneville put up 70 on Shiloh in 2004.
Probably because Booneville only lead by 14 late in the 3rd quarter.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: football17 on May 06, 2009, 11:21:42 pm
Hey QF and you other uneducated, clueless folks on this topic.. go do this and find out about your bogus scholarships you claim there is at SC and PA...

Go get the current rosters of both teams. Find out how long that player has been attending that school. I bet you'll be surprised to find out that most have been attending those schools since elementary or before you really know if a kid is going to be a good athlete...

Maybe that will shut up you crazies who have NO IDEA what you are talking about...
Title: Proposal Points to Ponder
Post by: AAAspectator on May 06, 2009, 11:22:43 pm
Berryville wants Shiloh in different playoff. Does Berryville think that the Shiloh game kept them out of the playoffs?
SC's press release says nothing about apology, just regret. 2 totally different things.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 06:37:11 am
Quote from: football17 on May 06, 2009, 11:21:42 pm
Hey QF and you other uneducated, clueless folks on this topic.. go do this and find out about your bogus scholarships you claim there is at SC and PA...

Go get the current rosters of both teams. Find out how long that player has been attending that school. I bet you'll be surprised to find out that most have been attending those schools since elementary or before you really know if a kid is going to be a good athlete...

Maybe that will shut up you crazies who have NO IDEA what you are talking about...


Actually it is hard to do that from outside.  Even if I had a Shiloh roster, I'd have to call every parent to find out when their child enrolled.

Is there a chance a FF supporter can do that and post.

(Though from experience, this is what it will show,  Of 50 players, 35 will have been there since birth, 10 since Jr. High, and 5 after that.  It won't matter if the 5 came from NY or Mo, it will be argued that they were recruited and paid and that is crux of the issue)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 07, 2009, 07:03:01 am
In "Little Wally's" article today he said something about pulling scholarships for athletes.  If we do this are we going to pull them for band and debate team members?  Cheer leaders and dance team?  In other words all students participating in extracurricular activities.  He also stated some crap about kids there for an "education".  Hello Napoleon, last I heard all students in high school were there for an education its at the collegiate level this becomes a question. 
Title: Re: Proposal Points to Ponder
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 07, 2009, 07:08:51 am
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 06, 2009, 11:22:43 pm
Berryville wants Shiloh in different playoff. Does Berryville think that the Shiloh game kept them out of the playoffs?
SC's press release says nothing about apology, just regret. 2 totally different things.


Berryville went 3-7 last year, two of their losses were to 3A teams, which makes them a "bottom of the pack" 4A team.  Shiloh was the cream of the crop in 4A, eventual state champion and they rolled through the season.  Where I'm from "bottom of the pack" teams get killed by the top team in that class all the time, its just how it works.  Word to Berryville, get better, get over it, quit whining and go on with life before the name of your town starts with an "F" instead of a "B".
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 07:29:45 am
Quote from: football17 on May 06, 2009, 11:21:42 pm
Hey QF and you other uneducated, clueless folks on this topic.. go do this and find out about your bogus scholarships you claim there is at SC and PA...

Go get the current rosters of both teams. Find out how long that player has been attending that school. I bet you'll be surprised to find out that most have been attending those schools since elementary or before you really know if a kid is going to be a good athlete...

Maybe that will shut up you crazies who have NO IDEA what you are talking about...

I don't know much about them at all,but I can name two that will be D1 players who didn't "grow up " at SC.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: True Believer on May 07, 2009, 07:31:50 am
Quote from: football17 on May 06, 2009, 11:21:42 pm
Hey QF and you other uneducated, clueless folks on this topic.. go do this and find out about your bogus scholarships you claim there is at SC and PA...

Go get the current rosters of both teams. Find out how long that player has been attending that school. I bet you'll be surprised to find out that most have been attending those schools since elementary or before you really know if a kid is going to be a good athlete...

Maybe that will shut up you crazies who have NO IDEA what you are talking about...


Uh..who's crazy?   Calm down Edith.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 07:39:34 am
When did they transfer?  Where from?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 07:52:00 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 07:39:34 am
When did they transfer?  Where from?
QB from north west AR last year, and DL from Southern MO, three years ago.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:35:04 am
Is that a bad commute from Missouri?

What year were they?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: old timer on May 07, 2009, 08:49:18 am
The main issue is:

   *Do Private Schools have an unfair advantage over Public Schools while competing in athletics?

There are alot of opinions on both sides of this issue.  No matter how you stand on this issue, one thing that cant be argued is the geographic advantage Private Schools hold over Public Schools.  A student from Fayetteville, Springdale, Rogers, Bentonville, or even Siloam Springs can attend Shiloh Christian.  But if they want to attend a public school they must remain in their school district.  I always hear the Little Rock Central argument that kids can move around within the Little Rock School District because of things like "M to M" or "No Student Left Behind"  policies.  This is comparing apples to oranges!  The Shiloh's, CAC's, and PA's are playing smaller suburban schools that dont have the LR schools in their conferences or on their schedules. 

I have no doubt that the private school kids work hard.  I have no doubt that some of their coaches probably outwork public school coaches.  Most times they have better resources and support.  Some private schools figured out long ago that sports success was the best way to market and promote their schools.  Kudos to them for being successful.  This is not an issue of trying to discredit anyone involved, but a matter of fairness among competitors.

I also keep hearing about athletic scholarships and financial aid to student athletes.  This is not happening at schools in question because it is too easy to trace and goes against AAA rules.  But what is happening, at a few private school (cant speak for all), is a thing called sponsorships.  Several well know athletes and former athletes are, or, have been sponsored by independent families.  This way their tuition is paid for without scholarships or financial aid that is provided by the schools.  I wonder how many non athletes are sponsored at CAC or LR Christian? 

My last point addresses recruiting.  I dont think recruiting is done by schools or coaches at private schools.  I really dont.  Recruiting is done by parents!  It starts early at the boys club level,  AAU, or little league.  Parents want their kids teams to be good and this often leads to recruiting kids from other districts.

The AAA is a public school governing body that guides athletics.  It was set up for public schools and they have allowed private schools to participate in their sanctioned events for years now.  They have no allegiance or responsibilty to them as they do public schools.  I can see the AAA in the near future washing their hands of this issue and letting private schools do their own thing.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:04:43 am
You make some good points, and I agree that private schools have some advantages, but you'd be a fool to suggest that Harrison didn't have advantages over Lake Village, or Berryville doesn't have them over Gillett.  The one class bump was instituted and appear to be too little for some school and too much for others.

Quote from: old timer on May 07, 2009, 08:49:18 am
The main issue is:

  But if they want to attend a public school they must remain in their school district.  I always hear the Little Rock Central argument that kids can move around within the Little Rock School District because of things like "M to M" or "No Student Left Behind"  policies. 

School Choice is allowed under many circumstances iin most of the other districts too

I also keep hearing about athletic scholarships and financial aid to student athletes.  This is not happening at schools in question because it is too easy to trace and goes against AAA rules.  But what is happening, at a few private school (cant speak for all), is a thing called sponsorships.  Several well know athletes and former athletes are, or, have been sponsored by independent families. 

AAA rules addressed this and non-family CANNOT pay tuition.  That's old stuff.


My last point addresses recruiting.  I dont think recruiting is done by schools or coaches at private schools.  I really dont.  Recruiting is done by parents!  It starts early at the boys club level,  AAU, or little league.  Parents want their kids teams to be good and this often leads to recruiting kids from other districts.

I suspect that is true, and it is not illegal.
What is illegal is for employees of the school to do so.
Private school coaches are very aware of this.  You can hear the buzz about a 6' 8" BB player "shadowing" at a school and ask the coach about him and hear,  "Would love to have him, but don't know much about him as I can't talk with him yet."

If you think Nava transferred to Nashville without talking to the baseball coach (practiced on Tuesday in Dierks, started at Nashville on Thursday) you are crazy.  Even seen it here that a player said he wasn't happy at school A, and "had talked to the coaches at B and C to see where he would fit in best."  I suspect this is abused on both sides, but I expect more private school coaches are aware of the limits.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 07, 2009, 09:07:06 am
http://www.nwaonline.net/articles/2009/05/06/columns/harry_king/050709king.txt
Title: Re: Proposal Points to Ponder
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:07:13 am
Well there is good news and bad news.

The good news is Shiloh brought this on themselves by having poor sportsmanship, which means other schools can learn from this

The bad news is that if these changes had been linked to Shiloh running up the score, some other reason to mess with the private schools would have been found.
Title: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: dead-air on May 07, 2009, 09:07:58 am
I've seen a few mis-informed flame throwers say that the AAA is a public school governing body.

                    WRONG !

I spoke with Lance Taylor of the AAA (Imagine that, going to the source), plus talked to Conway St. Joseph on this issue.

St. Joe was one of the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the AAA.  I believe Catholic was as well but haven't personally verified that one.

Also, Dr. Mark Benton from Harding Academy is part of the AAA's school accreditation process.

That's what I dislike SO much about all this message board stuff, many on here are good and level headed.  Unfortunately, a great number are no telling what, some 8th grader with the screen name "Snoop Hoggie Hog" and all of the sudden he
"Knows for a fact".

And now.... Back to the Fiction
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 09:11:14 am
Quote from: old timer on May 07, 2009, 08:49:18 am
I also keep hearing about athletic scholarships and financial aid to student athletes.  This is not happening at schools in question because it is too easy to trace and goes against AAA rules.  But what is happening, at a few private school (cant speak for all), is a thing called sponsorships.  Several well know athletes and former athletes are, or, have been sponsored by independent families.  This way their tuition is paid for without scholarships or financial aid that is provided by the schools.  I wonder how many non athletes are sponsored at CAC or LR Christian? 

Old Timer, you are the first one who seems to know what you are talking about on this issue, so I'll assume you really do know what you are talking about. Wally Hall is obviously clueless, and put erroneous information in the HEADLINE of his column today. Unbelievable.

I can tell you this: I've had my kids at LRCA for 8 years, and I know of only one current athlete who might be "sponsored" (I think everyone can guess who I'm talking about). I don't know for a fact that he is sponsored, but I suspect as much. His case is complicated, because when he first came to LRCA he had moved in with an LRCA family. My kids are involved in athletics, and I'm telling you that there is not one more kid at that school who is even a candidate to be sponsored.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 07, 2009, 09:11:36 am
It's public in the sense it's an open membership and anyone can join no matter what kind of school they are if they want to and follow the guidelines.  That's my reference.

No doubt members come from all kinds and sizes of schools.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 07, 2009, 09:17:05 am
Quote from: dead-air on May 07, 2009, 09:07:58 am
I've seen a few mis-informed flame throwers say that the AAA is a public school governing body.

                    WRONG !

I spoke with Lance Taylor of the AAA (Imagine that, going to the source), plus talked to Conway St. Joseph on this issue.

St. Joe was one of the FOUNDING MEMBERS of the AAA.  I believe Catholic was as well but haven't personally verified that one.

Also, Dr. Mark Benton from Harding Academy is part of the AAA's school accreditation process.

That's what I dislike SO much about all this message board stuff, many on here are good and level headed.  Unfortunately, a great number are no telling what, some 8th grader with the screen name "Snoop Hoggie Hog" and all of the sudden he
"Knows for a fact".

And now.... Back to the Fiction

DA: I have NO problem with the private schools, how they are ran, or how they conduct business.  If you want to send your kid(s) to a private more power to ya, open up the wallet.  I don't have a problem with how the AAA handles what class they play in either and I don't think they have an "unfair" advantage over the other teams they play.  IF they are operating and abiding by the rules that every other school in the state has to play by.  I suspect most of this issue is "sour grapes" by a few dip honchos that have a personal agenda (Wally Hall) or an ax to grind because THEY have issues with A private school themselves.

You seem like you are educated on this matter so if you don't mind me asking in your OPINION what the heck is the problem?   Every point I've heard from the "anti" private school crowd can be shown to apply to the publics as well.  Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 07, 2009, 09:21:34 am
Quote from: QF© on May 07, 2009, 09:07:06 am
http://www.nwaonline.net/articles/2009/05/06/columns/harry_king/050709king.txt


the "transfer before 7th grade" idea is a good one.  I think just because of all the outrage something has to be done, some new guidelines set.  Separating the privates and the publics is NOT the answer. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 09:25:17 am
IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THE MAJOR ISSUE HERE IS MISINFORMATION! Wally Hall headlines his column "Memo to private schools: Cut aid to athletes." Harry King, the so-called dean of Arkansas sports writers, states in his column today that there is a perception that parents or boosters help pay the private school tuition for some top-caliber athletes, and then remarks "accurate or not, this galls folks." OH MY GOSH! Is there not one decent sports journalist in the state of Arkansas who can give the facts rather than repeating what they've heard. Do some work, for Pete's sake, and find out what the truth really is. It's called journalism. Wow, I'm just amazed that no one can get to the bottom of this question and bring some light on this subject. Do some digging, talk to numerous sources on both sides of the matter, print something worth reading!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:28:54 am
Bug

That could have some interesting consequences.

Suppose you were a "public school family" and had been very happy with  your elementary school.  You had heard "rumors" about problems with your local high school, but thought you ought to give a a shot.  Maybe afte a few years of Jr. High, your kid might have a core group and make a great adjustment to High School.

On the other hand, this kid might have as bad of an experience in 9th grade as your older child, resulting in a transfer to a private school.  Of course the kids would have to give up ALL sports.

Obviously if you enrolled them in private schools at 7th grade, not only could they play Private, but if they later move to public school they could play there.

Where would you enroll your 7th grader if you could afford it?

The place that offers more options.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 07, 2009, 09:31:33 am
When has Wally Hall ever been well-informed about the topic of his column?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 09:36:43 am
Quote from: bobcat on May 07, 2009, 09:31:33 am
When has Wally Hall ever been well-informed about the topic of his column?

tell me about it. how has that guy kept his job so long?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 07, 2009, 09:38:57 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:28:54 am
Bug

That could have some interesting consequences.

Suppose you were a "public school family" and had been very happy with  your elementary school.  You had heard "rumors" about problems with your local high school, but thought you ought to give a a shot.  Maybe afte a few years of Jr. High, your kid might have a core group and make a great adjustment to High School.

On the other hand, this kid might have as bad of an experience in 9th grade as your older child, resulting in a transfer to a private school.  Of course the kids would have to give up ALL sports.

Obviously if you enrolled them in private schools at 7th grade, not only could they play Private, but if they later move to public school they could play there.

Where would you enroll your 7th grader if you could afford it?

The place that offers more options.

yep, i guess you are right, didn't think about that
Title: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:45:41 am
Does lack of a "district" give private schools an advantage?
Title: Re: Things some people don't know
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:46:10 am
The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public educational system if...provided greater freedom to determine the most effective school.... There is no right school for every student, and permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential.... [G]iving more options to parents and students with respect to where they attend public school will increase the responsiveness and effectiveness of the state's schools....[1]



The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts. Students who have been denied a transfer may receive a hearing before the Arkansas State Board of Education. Students may also transfer to other schools within their district. Parents are responsible for transportation unless the district opts to provide it
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 09:56:14 am
What I find sad, is the lack of definition in the problem here!

Now I'm not the brightest candle on the shelf and wouldn't claim to be, but I have to wonder if people really believe that just because a person chooses to attend private school over public, it makes them 1.75 or whatever times better than if they'd just went to a public institution? Humn?

Well let's say I'm right and it doesn't automatically make you a super human when you go to private school. Then if the enrollment numbers are balanced out among the divisions, game play should be somewhat equalized, offset only by the talent your team has for a given year.

Now if rules are instilled to ensure the balance and those rules are being modified to compensate for a lack of balance, then it would appear to my feeble mind that the governing body is ill-equipped to enforce said rules. Therefore they change the rules, because that's easier in the short term than enforcement.

Solution? Who really knows. I know it's not by constance change, that only causes instability and in the end no resolution. Focus should be on how to improve the governing body so that it is equipt to handle the responsibilties it has choosen to be in charge of.

Make the rules fair, enforce them. End of story!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 10:30:43 am
Maybe I should repost this here:

The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public educational system if...provided greater freedom to determine the most effective school.... There is no right school for every student, and permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential.... [G]iving more options to parents and students with respect to where they attend public school will increase the responsiveness and effectiveness of the state's schools....[1]



The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts. Students who have been denied a transfer may receive a hearing before the Arkansas State Board of Education. Students may also transfer to other schools within their district. Parents are responsible for transportation unless the district opts to provide it
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 10:37:45 am
Academically, I don't believe there are any disputes or sour grapes. I'm certain most on here would agree that if it's best for the kids education, then make it accessible by all means.

In this forum's format however, it's being viewed from strickly an athletics perspective. Although their attendance in the school is not an issue, their competitive eligabilty is.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Hoghead on May 07, 2009, 10:39:20 am
Quote from: OldScrap on April 25, 2009, 11:24:17 am
Quote from: GLion Alum on April 25, 2009, 10:43:50 am
I don't know any of the Berryville or Harrison coaches personally, but I have observed Arkansas high school football for a long time, and I know that Tommy Tice of Harrison is not a loser and likely adds some credibility to this movement.

Some people, they stamp a person a loser if they do not agree with them, that is probably the case, its the only thing they know to do when someone disagrees with them, and of course being as that person disagrees with them, they want to attack that persons character.

Of course the same problem has been going on down in Shreveport for quite sometime, its not just Arkansas sports having this problem. I read some message boards from that area, it seems their private schools react just like the ones in Arkansas do, attack the character of those who disagree with them.


You're right Old Scrap. In the politcal world this person is called a Liberal!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Hoghead on May 07, 2009, 10:43:48 am
Quote from: bobcat on April 28, 2009, 08:44:17 am
It's not about 'oh we are a private school so everyone is intimidated by us'. It's more about being tired of the lack of sportsmanship shown in the blowout games when Shiloh is up 62-7 and still has eleven starters playing both sides of the ball while the losing team has third string JV on the field. It's been this way as long as I can remember. They have talent. They lack a Christian attitude and sportsmanship. *Disclaimer: I am speaking of the football teams I have watched. We never had trouble with them in bball. I am not trying to stereotype the SCHS students.

I remember SC losing to Rison at WMS for the State Title in 2000. They weren't to Christain that day!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 10:44:03 am
Quote from: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 09:56:14 am
Now if rules are instilled to ensure the balance and those rules are being modified to compensate for a lack of balance, then it would appear to my feeble mind that the governing body is ill-equipped to enforce said rules. Therefore they change the rules, because that's easier in the short term than enforcement.

Solution? Who really knows. I know it's not by constance change, that only causes instability and in the end no resolution. Focus should be on how to improve the governing body so that it is equipt to handle the responsibilties it has choosen to be in charge of.

Make the rules fair, enforce them. End of story!

I agree 100%! As I said in an earlier post, this seems to me to be a sign of laziness with the AAA. If the people in charge would provide the necessary leadership, including bringing clarity where there is rumor and innuendo, then we could end up with a win-win rather than a lose-lose.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 07, 2009, 10:57:54 am
Im not familiar with AAA rules in great detail but is it possible for a private school to play in one classification for football and then another for all other sports?  Example 5a in football and 4a in all other sports?  just curious...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 11:05:45 am
Happens  already.  AAA doesn't have a 3A in soccer.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 11:23:54 am
Quote from: Chester A. Arthur on May 07, 2009, 11:12:33 am
On the website of one of AR's private schools, they list the top ten reasons you should attend their school.  Reason number 4 states that their school is..."centrally located to serve all of Northwest Arkansas".  They go on to say that they attract students from "..Bentonville, Bella Vista, Prairie Grove, West Fork, and most of the other surrounding communities".

Thats quite a large area in terms of size and population (many thousands of potential students) to draw from, yet they have the advantage of making class sizes whatever size they need to to stay in whichever classification they choose.

Compare this to public schools who have a defined school boundary or may be isolated in a rural setting and must accept anyone in their district who enrolls, therefore they cannot "control" their numbers.

Yet Wally wants them to just suck it up and play these high school versions of select teams!  It's not apples to apples...and, in my opinion, they should be voted out to compete amongst themselves like our neighboring states.

I had to bring this over from another thread cause I think it does make a valid point. Doesn't really change me perspective, but should be applied to the equation as far as division placement.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 07, 2009, 11:35:53 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 11:05:45 am
Happens  already.  AAA doesn't have a 3A in soccer.

So is it possible for Shiloh and PA to play 5a football and then remain in the 4a conference for all other sports...?  Is it feasible?

if an option like this was a possibility or okayed by the AAA and the members, then maybe this why Harrison got involved (now)...they (HHS) dont want to play against Shiloh either (and PA)...which is understandable...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 11:40:13 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:35:04 am
Is that a bad commute from Missouri?

What year were they?
Not if you rent an apartment in Springdale.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 11:49:58 am
Re School Boundaries:




The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential...."
 
The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 11:55:25 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 11:40:13 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:35:04 am
Is that a bad commute from Missouri?

What year were they?
Not if you rent an apartment in Springdale.

Then I guess that is just as valid as moving from Vilonia to Guy-Perkins or DeQueen to Nashville, or Alma to Greenwood.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 11:57:40 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 11:49:58 am
Re School Boundaries:




The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential...."
 
The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts.
You're still quoting academic benifits in an athletic subject though. The arguement is not over rather a student should be allowed to attend the school, it's about rather or not an unfair competitive (athletic) advange is being given to the institution as a result.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 11:57:57 am
Lets get the true answer of why the private schools are in such an uproar about this issue.. There wasn't this amount of publicity when a multiplier was introduced or being forced to play up a classification.. This issue gets to the lifeblood of private schools: Recruiting students..
Athletics is the biggest financial and student recruiting tool available.. Private schools being able to play public schools for state titles is probably the biggest draw for most of these private schools.. Take this away and private schools lose students and money.. Case in point, how many of you have heard of Lee Academy or Marvell Academy?? They are both east Arkansas private schools and they both have football teams.. But, they play in a private school league out of Mississippi..
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 12:03:03 pm
There is indeed the dispute. The private schools need the exposure, but when it comes at the price of using the public schools as stepping stones, it'll not be tolerated. Balance is the key and that has yet to be acceptably defined for both parties and may never be.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 07, 2009, 12:11:18 pm
or the west side of springdale...

there are kids transferring in S'dale at the middle school level so they can play the sport they want at the school they want...this is not just a senior high school issue...

the transfer issue is not a Shiloh or PA problem...

Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 11:55:25 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 11:40:13 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:35:04 am
Is that a bad commute from Missouri?

What year were they?
Not if you rent an apartment in Springdale.

Then I guess that is just as valid as moving from Vilonia to Guy-Perkins or DeQueen to Nashville, or Alma to Greenwood.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:18:28 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 11:57:57 am
Lets get the true answer of why the private schools are in such an uproar about this issue.. There wasn't this amount of publicity when a multiplier was introduced or being forced to play up a classification.. This issue gets to the lifeblood of private schools: Recruiting students..
Athletics is the biggest financial and student recruiting tool available.. Private schools being able to play public schools for state titles is probably the biggest draw for most of these private schools.. Take this away and private schools lose students and money.. Case in point, how many of you have heard of Lee Academy or Marvell Academy?? They are both east Arkansas private schools and they both have football teams.. But, they play in a private school league out of Mississippi..

For the 8000th time, only a small minority of private schools are oriented around winning athletic state championships and use that as a major drawing card. Your statement that "athletics is the biggest financial and student recruiting tool available" might be true for PA & Shiloh, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:19:14 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 09:36:43 am
Quote from: bobcat on May 07, 2009, 09:31:33 am
When has Wally Hall ever been well-informed about the topic of his column?

tell me about it. how has that guy kept his job so long?

You both made a conscience effort to read his column although you feel he has no merit in the things he said...bad choice by yourself, how ever if he would have talked about how the decision is wrong you would jump head over heals about how he is right...
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:32:40 pm
I would say its true for any well known private school in Arkansas.. Its all about exposure, and thats what state titles in athletics does.. Gives exposure. which brings in students and the money in their back pockets..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:35:34 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 06, 2009, 04:14:35 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 06, 2009, 04:13:07 pm
It shows 18 schools believe or know. 

Bingo.

That's what is so wrong with this.  None of it is based on fact.  It is based entirely on perception and assumption.

Of course that is all anyone has to go on.  Why should the schools who have to put all their business out there, have to play those who can hide all records?

Not sure my questions ever got answered...

Who reviews applications for acceptance into the school?

Who is in charge of making sure "all" of the kids sign up for the "financial aid"?

Who makes up this "third party" who designates who recieves "financial aid" and who doesn't?

If they are a non-biased "third party"  why are extra-curricular activites listed on the application?

How many students apply to Shiloh each year and get turned down?

How many of those are athletes?..will answer that one 0

The best part about it, is that we will always have our "perceptions" because private schools are awarded the freedom of not having anyone breath down their neck and can come shut them down because the school payed their teachers and dropped below a certain amount of money in the bank. Why should it be so secret who is recieving "financial aid" and who is not?  I would guess it is so the private school parents dont realize that the football player is getting a bigger scholarship than their basketball player...oops...another perception.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:39:16 pm
The funny thing about all this is that the larger private schools in central Arkansas will not suffer greatly if this is passed, and they won't need to compete in some out-of-state private school league. They will continue to play public schools during the regular season, and then have excellent competition for a "private school" title. At least travel will be easier! PA, LRCA, CAC, & Catholic would be pretty much assured of excellent tournament battles year in and year out. If Shiloh opts to stay in, then there would be five top-notch teams to compete against each other. HA would make it six.

Public schools lose as much if not more than privates under this scenario.

The biggest losers would be the private schools who are a tier lower -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc. They'll have a hard time competing against the larger private schools. Ironically, the ones least guilty will suffer the most.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 07, 2009, 12:40:26 pm
No, Made. I just feel that if I am going to be in a discussion about someone/something then it is best to be fully aware of the topic.  I have read Wally's column since...well forever. I do not like him, but I like to see what other people feel about things and how our opinions match or conflict.           Thanks for assuming that I am an rump, though. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:41:12 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:39:16 pm
The funny thing about all this is that the larger private schools in central Arkansas will not suffer greatly if this is passed, and they won't need to compete in some out-of-state private school league. They will continue to play public schools during the regular season, and then have excellent competition for a "private school" title. At least travel will be easier! PA, LRCA, CAC, & Catholic would be pretty much assured of excellent tournament battles year in and year out. If Shiloh opts to stay in, then there would be five top-notch teams to compete against each other. HA would make it six.

Public schools lose as much if not more than privates under this scenario.

The biggest losers would be the private schools who are a tier lower -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc. They'll have a hard time competing against the larger private schools. Ironically, the ones least guilty will suffer the most.

what exactly do public schools lose?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 07, 2009, 12:41:41 pm
OMMFG. If another "public/private" thread pops up, my head will explode...
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:46:40 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:32:40 pm
I would say its true for any well known private school in Arkansas.. Its all about exposure, and thats what state titles in athletics does.. Gives exposure. which brings in students and the money in their back pockets..

You're wrong. Many people consider Episcopal the finest private school in the state, and if you think state titles in athletics have anything to do with that, you're not paying attention. And if you don't think they are "well known," you're spending too much time on Fearless Friday.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:47:13 pm
LOL, be sure and post pics.. We've all got to much time on our hands for sure.. (in reference to bobcats statement)
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 12:47:14 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 11:57:57 am
Lets get the true answer of why the private schools are in such an uproar about this issue.. There wasn't this amount of publicity when a multiplier was introduced or being forced to play up a classification.. This issue gets to the lifeblood of private schools: Recruiting students..
Athletics is the biggest financial and student recruiting tool available.. Private schools being able to play public schools for state titles is probably the biggest draw for most of these private schools.. Take this away and private schools lose students and money.. Case in point, how many of you have heard of Lee Academy or Marvell Academy?? They are both east Arkansas private schools and they both have football teams.. But, they play in a private school league out of Mississippi..

About as much as I have heard of Elaine
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:50:25 pm
Quote from: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:41:12 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:39:16 pm
The funny thing about all this is that the larger private schools in central Arkansas will not suffer greatly if this is passed, and they won't need to compete in some out-of-state private school league. They will continue to play public schools during the regular season, and then have excellent competition for a "private school" title. At least travel will be easier! PA, LRCA, CAC, & Catholic would be pretty much assured of excellent tournament battles year in and year out. If Shiloh opts to stay in, then there would be five top-notch teams to compete against each other. HA would make it six.

Public schools lose as much if not more than privates under this scenario.

The biggest losers would be the private schools who are a tier lower -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc. They'll have a hard time competing against the larger private schools. Ironically, the ones least guilty will suffer the most.

what exactly do public schools lose?

They lose excellent competition, and they lose income from a drop in gate receipts.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 12:50:35 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:32:40 pm
I would say its true for any well known private school in Arkansas.. Its all about exposure, and thats what state titles in athletics does.. Gives exposure. which brings in students and the money in their back pockets..

Yeah, my Dad was stationed in Korea a couple of years ago he talked up the hopes of a Subiaco State Championship in soccer that eight of them enrolled at Subiaco.

Can't imagine why they didn'd go to Conway as it is free.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 12:51:50 pm
Quote from: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 12:03:03 pm
There is indeed the dispute. The private schools need the exposure, but when it comes at the price of using the public schools as stepping stones, it'll not be tolerated. Balance is the key and that has yet to be acceptably defined for both parties and may never be.
So then its time to end the mess,and completly seperate the two,and it looks like that's where were heading, this year playoffs,next cycle everything!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:54:51 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 07, 2009, 12:40:26 pm
No, Made. I just feel that if I am going to be in a discussion about someone/something then it is best to be fully aware of the topic.  I have read Wally's column since...well forever. I do not like him, but I like to see what other people feel about things and how our opinions match or conflict.           Thanks for assuming that I am an rump, though. Much appreciated.

Never assumed you were an rump as you so eloquently put it.  I was on the fence with this argument from the beginning, am I a private supporter no, but I am a kid supporter and believe that all kids should have the same opportunities.

With Shiloh this year they proved they could have won state with their JV, with their "second string" playing as often as their starters. and still outscoring opponents.

What public school can do that?  I can't think of a single Public School team that would win their conference, let alone state with their second string, let alone make the playoffs.

Private schools can legally recruit and once you get to the point of tearing apart everyone then it is easy to recruit with less effort.  My biggest example would be Parkview this year.  They had 3-4 kids transfer in to play basketball this year, all of those players were on the same AAU team.

Coincidence?  Go ask the sponsor of the ***** if it was a coincidence.

I like the idea of performance based, just not sure how tough the implementation of it would be on the AAA.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 07, 2009, 12:57:48 pm
I try to be as eloquent as is necessary.       I am not sure that there is a correct answer to this problem.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 12:58:21 pm
Quote from: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:54:51 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 07, 2009, 12:40:26 pm
No, Made. I just feel that if I am going to be in a discussion about someone/something then it is best to be fully aware of the topic.  I have read Wally's column since...well forever. I do not like him, but I like to see what other people feel about things and how our opinions match or conflict.           Thanks for assuming that I am an rump, though. Much appreciated.

Never assumed you were an rump as you so eloquently put it.  I was on the fence with this argument from the beginning, am I a private supporter no, but I am a kid supporter and believe that all kids should have the same opportunities.

With Shiloh this year they proved they could have won state with their JV, with their "second string" playing as often as their starters. and still outscoring opponents.

What public school can do that?  I can't think of a single Public School team that would win their conference, let alone state with their second string, let alone make the playoffs.

Private schools can legally recruit and once you get to the point of tearing apart everyone then it is easy to recruit with less effort.  My biggest example would be Parkview this year.  They had 3-4 kids transfer in to play basketball this year, all of those players were on the same AAU team.

Coincidence?  Go ask the sponsor of the ***** if it was a coincidence.

I like the idea of performance based, just not sure how tough the implementation of it would be on the AAA.

Do you know if Hall's BB team also has out of district players.  They suddenly got good.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:58:39 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:46:40 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:32:40 pm
I would say its true for any well known private school in Arkansas.. Its all about exposure, and that's what state titles in athletics does.. Gives exposure. which brings in students and the money in their back pockets..

You're wrong. Many people consider Episcopal the finest private school in the state, and if you think state titles in athletics have anything to do with that, you're not paying attention. And if you don't think they are "well known," you're spending too much time on Fearless Friday.
I'm well aware of Episcopal and Lutheran and several others that are highly thought of in the academic community.. And I don't believe for a second that this issue will affect them in the slightest.. But, this issue deals with athletics and it will affect those schools that have used athletics as a student recruiting tool..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:59:27 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:50:25 pm
Quote from: Made on May 07, 2009, 12:41:12 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:39:16 pm
The funny thing about all this is that the larger private schools in central Arkansas will not suffer greatly if this is passed, and they won't need to compete in some out-of-state private school league. They will continue to play public schools during the regular season, and then have excellent competition for a "private school" title. At least travel will be easier! PA, LRCA, CAC, & Catholic would be pretty much assured of excellent tournament battles year in and year out. If Shiloh opts to stay in, then there would be five top-notch teams to compete against each other. HA would make it six.

Public schools lose as much if not more than privates under this scenario.

The biggest losers would be the private schools who are a tier lower -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc. They'll have a hard time competing against the larger private schools. Ironically, the ones least guilty will suffer the most.

what exactly do public schools lose?

They lose excellent competition, and they lose income from a drop in gate receipts.

If only the school recieved the gate, considering it goes to the AAA during the play-offs.  Also not sure how many fans can or would make the trek to shiloh during the playoffs fromt he 7, 8, 2, 3-4a.  Basically I guess the public school would lose the chance to go to springdale and fight traffic, and give the Shiloh concession stand money for more "financial aid"..oh and the chance to feel humbled in the awe of shiloh while the clock shows mercy.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 01:29:52 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:58:39 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:46:40 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 12:32:40 pm
I would say its true for any well known private school in Arkansas.. Its all about exposure, and that's what state titles in athletics does.. Gives exposure. which brings in students and the money in their back pockets..

You're wrong. Many people consider Episcopal the finest private school in the state, and if you think state titles in athletics have anything to do with that, you're not paying attention. And if you don't think they are "well known," you're spending too much time on Fearless Friday.
I'm well aware of Episcopal and Lutheran and several others that are highly thought of in the academic community.. And I don't believe for a second that this issue will affect them in the slightest.. But, this issue deals with athletics and it will affect those schools that have used athletics as a student recruiting tool..

But you have just illustrated a huge part of this whole problem. You used language that rolled all private schools into your statement, yet you are now saying you only meant certain schools "have used athleticas as a student recruiting tool." There is some major guilt-by-association going on here.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 02:03:55 pm
I like the performance based option as well,and it should apply to all, not just private schools. I don't like the idea of allowing private schools who are performing quite well at one classification level being dropped down too a lower level. If they can compete at 3A, meaning making the playoffs often, and going down to the semi's or quarter finals occasionally, then they are matched up quite well, why in the heck would we change the rules too allow them to drop to a lower class?That gives the impression of unfairness. PA won the 5A state championship in football,now if they choose, starting next cycle they get to play against less competition.Are they not holding there own in 5A? Why even allow that to happen? Enrollment numbers are not a good way to distinguish classification when comparing publics to privates, I say that knowing that in some instances it works out,Conway Christian is a good example of that,for the time being they seem to be matched up perfectly with the majority of 2AA schools. My pridiction for them is that within a few short years they will be tearing up the 2A class. When that happens it will be because they work so much harder than the public schools they play,or their coaches are much more dedicaded, and have superior knowledge, and when folks say something about it, the answer will be, quit your whinning and spend more money and work harder to get better or hire better coaches. Conway Christian is going to get better in a hurry because they have a city the size of "Conway" to pull kids from, is that an advantage that other small public schools have?The problem is the private school folks don't recognize that as an advantage, and they don't understand why it dosen't set well with us poor ole public school folks. We can take gettin the crap kicked out of us by Ola, or Bigelow cause were pretty sure they are dealing with all the same issues and restrictions that any other small public school has to deal with on a dailey basis. I know it sounds like excuses to you private school folks,but I wonder how many private schools loose potential athletes for reasons like, I can't play because my mom can't bring me, or we can't afford cleats, or I have too work after school, or I have to keep an eye on my lil sister everyday,I can't afford gas to get to practice or I have to cut hay or they want to play but because of the reasons I just stated they can't spend every waking moment of their free time lifting weights or running routes or pushing a sled. In other words their are demographic differences that limit how many kids participate in sports, and of the ones that can play a percentage of them are going to be limited as too the amount of time they can spend "getting better", thats why I feel like enrollment numbers are a poor way of comparing the two types of schools. Example ,and I'm not picking on CC, just using them for an example. Even though our 9 thru 11 numbers are twice that of CC,they had 5 or 6 more kids on their football team,going by enrollment numbers you would think we would have a 2-1 advantage? It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months, I think the AAA will remain neutral on the matter and leave it up to the 300 or so voting members.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 07, 2009, 02:08:47 pm
     Please
             Use
                  Paragraphs.  :)

More people will read your post.  Trust me.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Bwana on May 07, 2009, 02:10:24 pm
We're talking athletics here.. Not debate team or quiz bowl.. And I don't believe Episcopal or Lutheran falls into the category of well known private schools when it comes to athletics.. Don't start with the nitpicking..
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 02:12:59 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 07, 2009, 02:08:47 pm
     Please
             Use
                  Paragraphs.  :)

More people will read your post.  Trust me.

Sorry , I was in a hurry.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Rattler4Life on May 07, 2009, 02:13:39 pm
Quote from: BillyJack™ on May 07, 2009, 11:23:54 am
Quote from: Chester A. Arthur on May 07, 2009, 11:12:33 am
On the website of one of AR's private schools, they list the top ten reasons you should attend their school.  Reason number 4 states that their school is..."centrally located to serve all of Northwest Arkansas".  They go on to say that they attract students from "..Bentonville, Bella Vista, Prairie Grove, West Fork, and most of the other surrounding communities".

Thats quite a large area in terms of size and population (many thousands of potential students) to draw from, yet they have the advantage of making class sizes whatever size they need to to stay in whichever classification they choose.

Compare this to public schools who have a defined school boundary or may be isolated in a rural setting and must accept anyone in their district who enrolls, therefore they cannot "control" their numbers.

Yet Wally wants them to just suck it up and play these high school versions of select teams!  It's not apples to apples...and, in my opinion, they should be voted out to compete amongst themselves like our neighboring states.

I had to bring this over from another thread cause I think it does make a valid point. Doesn't really change me perspective, but should be applied to the equation as far as division placement.

I made a similar point last fall in another thread. I don't know for sure but I think these private schools have a XX mile radius that their students must reside in to attend, unless they are a boarding school like Subi.  Please correct me if I am wrong on that. 
Here's my point.  Take Union Christian in Fort Smith for example who recently moved down to 2A. Their enrollment shows 90 but hey have access to the same students as North Side, South Side, Van Buren, Greenwood, Alma plus some Oklahoma kids. Now they are in the 2A 4 conference against Hackett, Hartford, Magazine, Johnson County Westside and Decatur in Football.  Look at the area these small schools are in and the student base each district has.  Now is that equality? I say if the privates are going to play with the publics they should be classified by taking an average of classifications of the public schools in their area.  For instance in Unions case: North Side 7A, South Side 7A, Van Buren 7A, Greenwood 5A, Alma 5A lets throw in Hackett at 2A add these up and you get 33 divide this by 6 you get 5.5 round it down to 5 and they should play in 5A.  Now this may be extreme in Union's case but I also think that when they have that much area to draw from, 2A is the other extreme!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 07, 2009, 02:26:54 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:39:16 pm
The funny thing about all this is that the larger private schools in central Arkansas will not suffer greatly if this is passed, and they won't need to compete in some out-of-state private school league. They will continue to play public schools during the regular season, and then have excellent competition for a "private school" title. At least travel will be easier! PA, LRCA, CAC, & Catholic would be pretty much assured of excellent tournament battles year in and year out. If Shiloh opts to stay in, then there would be five top-notch teams to compete against each other. HA would make it six.

Public schools lose as much if not more than privates under this scenario.

The biggest losers would be the private schools who are a tier lower -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc. They'll have a hard time competing against the larger private schools. Ironically, the ones least guilty will suffer the most.

Wouldn't be any rule against a theoretical Arkansas Private School Association establishing a 1A and 2A classification within their membership as they saw fit.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 02:52:59 pm
Rattler,  Take her proposal just a hair further.

LRCA
CAC
PA
AB
Lutheran
Episcopal
Conway Christian
Conway St Joe
Union Christian
Shiloh
and Catholic all play in 7A

That's 11 of 16.

Which other 5 teams should play for the 7A title?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 02:59:52 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on May 07, 2009, 02:03:55 pm
. I know it sounds like excuses to you private school folks,but I wonder how many private schools loose potential athletes for reasons like, I can't play because my mom can't bring me, or we can't afford cleats, or I have too work after school, or I have to keep an eye on my lil sister everyday,I can't afford gas to get to practice or I have to cut hay or they want to play but because of the reasons I just stated they can't spend every waking moment of their free time lifting weights or running routes or pushing a sled.

Add "I am in danger of failing and my parents said no" and it may be pretty high.  I don't argue that Private schools don't generally serve a wealthier segment of the poplulation but it is a stereotype to think there are not kids who have to catch rides home from practice, who have to work to make ends meet, whose parents have never been able to take off work to see them compete.

Just because they wear uniforms doesn't mean they are all the same.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 03:12:12 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 07, 2009, 02:26:54 pm
Quote from: Dudeness on May 07, 2009, 12:39:16 pm
The funny thing about all this is that the larger private schools in central Arkansas will not suffer greatly if this is passed, and they won't need to compete in some out-of-state private school league. They will continue to play public schools during the regular season, and then have excellent competition for a "private school" title. At least travel will be easier! PA, LRCA, CAC, & Catholic would be pretty much assured of excellent tournament battles year in and year out. If Shiloh opts to stay in, then there would be five top-notch teams to compete against each other. HA would make it six.

Public schools lose as much if not more than privates under this scenario.

The biggest losers would be the private schools who are a tier lower -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal, etc. They'll have a hard time competing against the larger private schools. Ironically, the ones least guilty will suffer the most.

Wouldn't be any rule against a theoretical Arkansas Private School Association establishing a 1A and 2A classification within their membership as they saw fit.

The schools I mentioned -- AB, Lutheran, Episcopal -- are at a 3A level. The problem is that I don't think there are not enough private schools at that level to field a competitive tournament. The tiny private schools won't really care one way or the other, but I'm sure those mid-sized privates would like to have athletic competition -- with a chance to compete in a statewide tournament if they excel. But they are out of luck. My guess is that they will compete with the big boys, and get repeatedly pounded year in and year out. The parents and/or kids that are really interested in excelling in athletics will leave those schools and move over to one of the big ones, thus further hurting the mid-sized ones, and further helping the big guys. This has already happened to a certain extent, but will increase with a split. Because under the current system, those mid-sized private schools have a chance to be competitive at the 3A level.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Rattler4Life on May 07, 2009, 03:22:57 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 02:52:59 pm
Rattler,  Take her proposal just a hair further.

LRCA
CAC
PA
AB
Lutheran
Episcopal
Conway Christian
Conway St Joe
Union Christian
Shiloh
and Catholic all play in 7A

That's 11 of 16.

Which other 5 teams should play for the 7A title?

??? You lost me.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: rammer on May 07, 2009, 05:02:14 pm
To QPWFB,

I am responding to your post but didn't want to copy it because it is so long.

You have a point regarding the Conway area schools. They do draw from a larger area than Quitman or Bigelow. I know you are probably talking about football, but also consider the other sports that Conway Christian and St. Joseph participates in.

How many of the athletes on these teams would really be able to play for Conway high school. In basketball (the sport I care about) I believe John Kordsmeir would be the only player from the 2 teams combined that would really play much for the Wampus Cats, and with the athletes they have, he would not be the star of the team. If there was only Conway high school, think of the number of athletes at Conway Christian and St. Joseph's that would probably not be able to play sports.

A drawback for the private schools is that if an athlete is really good, he may transfer from the smaller private school to the larger public school in order to play at a higher level, with a better opportunity to get noticed by the college scouts. An example- Sylvan  Hills won the 6A state championship in baseball last year. They did it with 3 players that had played at Abundant Life the year before and had gone to the state championship game. These 3 players wanted to play at a higher level (they were the 3 best players for AL) so they transferred right around the street corner to Sylvan Hills. Losing 3 all-star players was catastrophic for a 2A school and AL was not very good last year.

I am for moving up the privates to another level and see how that works out. By all means, just let the kids play and do not punish them for being good. Just up the level of competition. They don't care who they play, they just want to compete.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: On the Move on May 07, 2009, 08:03:36 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 10:30:43 am
Maybe I should repost this here:

The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public educational system if...provided greater freedom to determine the most effective school.... There is no right school for every student, and permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential.... [G]iving more options to parents and students with respect to where they attend public school will increase the responsiveness and effectiveness of the state's schools....[1]



The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts. Students who have been denied a transfer may receive a hearing before the Arkansas State Board of Education. Students may also transfer to other schools within their district. Parents are responsible for transportation unless the district opts to provide it


The school they are transfering to has to have room not make room for them.

The issue on bondaries not sure any private school has them.  Do you think any private school will say NO we don't want your money because you live 50 miles from here.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:14:14 pm
Public schools get $5000+ per student.  Unless there was no room they'd take a transfer too.

Especially if he could run.

If I wanted to have a private school powerhouse, I'd start a Portuguese class and hire a Portuguese AAU coach and have the players transfer from three counties to the school "for its language program."
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HorseFeathers on May 07, 2009, 08:26:53 pm
So we're back to the "recruiting" thing again...After all the whiny little babies get the private schools thrown out they will start working on getting the Junction City's, Charleston's, and Bauxites's of the world moved up because they are drawing students that "transfer" in for the academics or to escape the "big" cities in the area...or the white flight, as is the case around Malvern, Does anybody know how that case turned out anyway?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HorseFeathers on May 07, 2009, 08:42:44 pm
I'm not sure, but it seems like guy-perkins just down the road from quitman never seems to have much trouble drawing in some of those "bench" players from Conway, and the probably get a few from Quitman to..Even though guy-perkins fans claim they are all home-grown...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: jrbballguy on May 08, 2009, 10:09:04 am
interesting how Floyd doesn't give the stat for how many time outs they used in the final minute of the half to try to block a punt, or get the ball back... even though they are already up by more than 30.  I know of at least 2 off the top of my head...
but keep on saying you aren't running up the score if it makes you feel better about yourself.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 08, 2009, 11:00:02 am
Quote from: jrbballguy on May 08, 2009, 10:09:04 am
interesting how Floyd doesn't give the stat for how many time outs they used in the final minute of the half to try to block a punt, or get the ball back... even though they are already up by more than 30.  I know of at least 2 off the top of my head...
but keep on saying you aren't running up the score if it makes you feel better about yourself.

I read the press release, watch the video and after further evaluation...I feel better about it. 
I also feel Berryville just wasn't very good this year...blaming Shiloh for their program wont make them any better.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 08, 2009, 11:15:18 am
Berryville always sucks. THAT is not a new development. Shiloh lacks sportsmanship and humility. THAT is also not a new development.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 08, 2009, 11:44:22 am
Anyone else curious why the same company that is tied to Shiloh and contributed to their Warning from the AAA last year feels the need to also put a Private School's press release on their Recruiting website?

A real head scratcher that one is.   :-X
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: Lions84 on May 08, 2009, 01:03:02 pm
Yes because many parents will drive so their child can play for Shiloh ,PA, CAC, HA.   
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: Russ PhD on May 08, 2009, 01:16:54 pm
John makes an excellent point.  AR has school choice.  I would add that this is America, so you can always move to a different city.  The AAA has ineligibility rules based on transfer as well.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 08, 2009, 01:30:15 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 08, 2009, 11:44:22 am
Anyone else curious why the same company that is tied to Shiloh and contributed to their Warning from the AAA last year feels the need to also put a Private School's press release on their Recruiting website?

A real head scratcher that one is.   :-X

Nothing I see, hear or read in Arkansas makes me scratch my head anymore,  maybe a little head shake from side to side and a chuckle though!   :)
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Russ PhD on May 08, 2009, 03:05:12 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:14:14 pm
If I wanted to have a private school powerhouse, I'd start a Portuguese class and hire a Portuguese AAU coach and have the players transfer from three counties to the school "for its language program."
Isn't this how Parkview built a public school basketball powerhouse not too long ago.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 08, 2009, 03:59:40 pm
Nah, they transferred for the "arts"
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: ricepig on May 08, 2009, 04:04:16 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 08, 2009, 03:59:40 pm
Nah, they transferred for the "arts"

I've always been told that it was for the "science"
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Russ PhD on May 08, 2009, 04:14:31 pm
Quote from: ricepig on May 08, 2009, 04:04:16 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 08, 2009, 03:59:40 pm
Nah, they transferred for the "arts"

I've always been told that it was for the "science"
It was a "magnet" school and the basketball players were made of ferrous metals.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 08, 2009, 04:44:02 pm
+5000
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 08, 2009, 05:41:46 pm
This whole topic is funny to an outsider, because the AAA is all about lies and ignorance by definition to anyone that takes a peek from the outside with no emotional tie to anything here in Arkansas! The AAA comes across as Morons to the public, coaches, parents, players and fans , not saying everyone involved is a moron, but as a collective entity they have an organizational IQ of about 75. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: ricepig on May 08, 2009, 07:00:09 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 08, 2009, 05:41:46 pm
This whole topic is funny to an outsider, because the AAA is all about lies and ignorance by definition to anyone that takes a peek from the outside with no emotional tie to anything here in Arkansas! The AAA comes across as Morons to the public, coaches, parents, players and fans , not saying everyone involved is a moron, but as a collective entity they have an organizational IQ of about 75. 

Being a little charitable aren't we? More like 25!  ;D
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: On the Move on May 08, 2009, 07:16:30 pm
Love the last 2 post +1000!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: voiceofreason on May 09, 2009, 08:14:42 am
It is clear that most people agree that there is a problem with running up the score in high school football games.  There are posts all over this site accusing both private and public schools. 

As a coach at a private school (not a football coach), I feel like it is necessary to introduce an idea that may satisfy the problem without hurting the playoff system for ALL sports and AAA sanctioned events.  I am VERY interested to hear your thoughts on this idea.

Okay...

I believe that the AAA should put into practice an "Ethics Committee."  This committee should be made up of 7 members...or any other odd number for that matter.  For the sake of this post, let's say 7.  I think that the public schools should get 4 members of the seven or possibly even 5, leaving the rest to the private schools. 

I believe that the members should be non-coaching ADs. 

I believe that they should be nominated and voted on by the AAA members and should serve no longer than a 3 year term. 

Once the committee is formed, coaches (OF ANY SPORT) can submit complaints to the AAA about "unethical" or "unsportsmanlike" conduct.  This could deal with running up the score or any other situation that a coach sees fit.  If it is running up the score the coach should be required to submit a written statement as well as video evidence,if needed, of the "infraction."

After the committee takes a close look at all the evidence, from both sides, they will make a ruling.  Penalties could start with warnings and move quickly to suspension of the head coach.  If the head coach still does not learn his lesson, you can begin to then punish the program by putting them on a 1 year suspension from competing in the AAA playoffs. 

If head coaches are hired to do what is best for the players, certainly after getting a warning from the AAA he/she would not continue to perform the "unethical" actions he/she is accused of. 
___________________________________________________

To me this allows coaches to be punished for their actions, not kids.   This also allows us to actually address the issue at hand...which as I understand it is "unethical" or "unsportsmanlike" actions by a FEW coaches around the state. 

Thoughts...?
Title: Re: Things some people don't know
Post by: blueprep on May 09, 2009, 08:17:26 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:46:10 am
The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public educational system if...provided greater freedom to determine the most effective school.... There is no right school for every student, and permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential.... [G]iving more options to parents and students with respect to where they attend public school will increase the responsiveness and effectiveness of the state's schools....[1]



The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts. Students who have been denied a transfer may receive a hearing before the Arkansas State Board of Education. Students may also transfer to other schools within their district. Parents are responsible for transportation unless the district opts to provide it


John your post will never take off like other threads...too bad because its good information!!!
Your post is based on facts and not rumors and innuendo's. 
Rumors like someone told someone else who's cousin had a friend who had a girlfriend who used to date this other guy who had a friend who had heard that johnny got a scholarship to run for touchdowns.  And then his team who was up 114-0 in the 4th quarter was still throwing 7 touchdowns with all of its starters in the game...blah...blah...blah...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 09, 2009, 08:29:59 am
Quote from: voiceofreason on May 09, 2009, 08:14:42 am
It is clear that most people agree that there is a problem with running up the score in high school football games.  There are posts all over this site accusing both private and public schools. 

As a coach at a private school (not a football coach), I feel like it is necessary to introduce an idea that may satisfy the problem without hurting the playoff system for ALL sports and AAA sanctioned events.  I am VERY interested to hear your thoughts on this idea.

Okay...

I believe that the AAA should put into practice an "Ethics Committee."  This committee should be made up of 7 members...or any other odd number for that matter.  For the sake of this post, let's say 7.  I think that the public schools should get 4 members of the seven or possibly even 5, leaving the rest to the private schools. 

I believe that the members should be non-coaching ADs. 

I believe that they should be nominated and voted on by the AAA members and should serve no longer than a 3 year term. 

Once the committee is formed, coaches (OF ANY SPORT) can submit complaints to the AAA about "unethical" or "unsportsmanlike" conduct.  This could deal with running up the score or any other situation that a coach sees fit.  If it is running up the score the coach should be required to submit a written statement as well as video evidence,if needed, of the "infraction."

After the committee takes a close look at all the evidence, from both sides, they will make a ruling.  Penalties could start with warnings and move quickly to suspension of the head coach.  If the head coach still does not learn his lesson, you can begin to then punish the program by putting them on a 1 year suspension from competing in the AAA playoffs. 

If head coaches are hired to do what is best for the players, certainly after getting a warning from the AAA he/she would not continue to perform the "unethical" actions he/she is accused of. 
___________________________________________________

To me this allows coaches to be punished for their actions, not kids.   This also allows us to actually address the issue at hand...which as I understand it is "unethical" or "unsportsmanlike" actions by a FEW coaches around the state. 

Thoughts...?

Interesting and probably has validity however how do you define sportsmanship?  Is winning 65-0 bad sportsmanship?  Would punting on 1st down be bad sportsmanship?  How about fumbling on purpose to not score a touchdown?  Dropping a interception?  All of a sudden sportsmanship can take on lots of different meanings with different agenda's.
There is lots of examples of one school scoring lots of points on another school, public and private.  It would be extremely hard to manage.
When Berryville beat the Shiloh basketball team this year by 25 or so...when they did quit trying to score?  Maybe they subbed in players who normally don't get to play much, did those players try and score...see, pointless on my part and yet infinite on definning sportsmanship...
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: Yukon Cornelius on May 09, 2009, 08:58:04 am
Can't you understand that it is different.  Let's just take Shiloh for example here.  There are 6 7A schools within 30 miles of the Shiloh campus.  Any of these kids can go to Shiloh. 

On the other hand, another school in 4A which is in a community of 4,000 people has no large schools or population bases near their campus.  Even if a kid wanted to go to school there from another town they would not be able to. 

Why is this so hard to understand? 
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: True Believer on May 09, 2009, 09:28:19 am
Oh I think they understand. 

Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: GLion Alum on May 09, 2009, 09:49:33 am
Quote from: Yukon Cornelius on May 09, 2009, 08:58:04 am
Can't you understand that it is different.  Let's just take Shiloh for example here.  There are 6 7A schools within 30 miles of the Shiloh campus.  Any of these kids can go to Shiloh. 

On the other hand, another school in 4A which is in a community of 4,000 people has no large schools or population bases near their campus.  Even if a kid wanted to go to school there from another town they would not be able to. 

Why is this so hard to understand? 

Actually all six of those 7A schools are within 20 miles (minutes) of the Shiloh campus (15 minutes or less on I-540 and five minutes to get five blocks or so in Springdale).  Plus there are one 5A school, six 4A schools and three 3A schools within 30 miles.  You make a very valid point.

The enrollment figures released recently have Huntsville, Farmington, Gravette and possibly other 1-4A teams with more than twice as many students as Shiloh.  But walk down the aisles of those schools during a break and count the number of big, burly linemen types, then go to Shiloh and do the same.  The disparity is so great that the multiplier rule now in effect doesn't begin to even the playing field--at least insofar as Shiloh is concerned. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: voiceofreason on May 09, 2009, 10:24:36 am
I agree with your concerns.  That is what the committee is to decide.  They would be a committee decided on and voted on by their peers.  While they will not always make the popular decision, they will be making the tough ones.

The AAA, and its memebers, set rules and standards for our high school students and student-atheltes, this is their chance to really begin to set some rules that do set clear definitions of character and sportsmanship in athletics.  That is something that has taken a bake seat to wins and losses. 

At the end of the day remember most of us, myself included, do not live our daily lives based on our athletic performance, it all comes down the first part of being a STUDENT-athlete. 

Keep the thoughts coming...I am really wanting to hear good and bad comments. Thanks
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 09, 2009, 11:51:21 am
The sportsmanship issue looks like a disagreement on how the coaches manage and wind up a blowout football game.  There's a good point above about what happens in a blowout basketball game.  In basketball, both teams put in all the subs, and the winning team stops pressing and goes to a conservative zone defense.  Both teams keep running their offense, and the kids in the game for both teams are trying their best to score.  Sometimes the point spread shrinks and sometimes it keeps getting bigger.  If the winning team has the ball on the final possession, sometimes they just hold it instead of taking the final shot.  Occasionally, you'll see a winning team go to a stall game with a huge lead to run out the clock, but the great majority of the blowout basketball games I have seen have been managed as I just described.

Some people genuinely feel there should be a different standard for football.  Should it be different?  If so, then when you enter the 4th Q with a large point spread, why not ask the losing team whether they want to play the game out or just play offense the whole 4th Q.  Give them the ball on their own 30 yard line, and each time they fail to make a first down, just back up to the 30 and start over again.  Don't bother with the winning team taking a knee, intentionally fumbling, or punting on first down, just give them the ball back.  The downside is that one team's offense doesn't get to play and the other team's defense doesn't get to play.

Personally, whether ahead or behind, I would rather just play the game out with the winning team playing conservatively.  All the kids on both teams, offense and defense, leave a lot of blood, sweat, and lunches on the practice field so they can play football on Friday night under the lights.  However, it is obvious that others disagree. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: ricepig on May 09, 2009, 01:00:24 pm
Quote from: voiceofreason on May 09, 2009, 08:14:42 am
It is clear that most people agree that there is a problem with running up the score in high school football games.  There are posts all over this site accusing both private and public schools. 

As a coach at a private school (not a football coach), I feel like it is necessary to introduce an idea that may satisfy the problem without hurting the playoff system for ALL sports and AAA sanctioned events.  I am VERY interested to hear your thoughts on this idea.

Okay...

I believe that the AAA should put into practice an "Ethics Committee."  This committee should be made up of 7 members...or any other odd number for that matter.  For the sake of this post, let's say 7.  I think that the public schools should get 4 members of the seven or possibly even 5, leaving the rest to the private schools. 

I believe that the members should be non-coaching ADs. 

I believe that they should be nominated and voted on by the AAA members and should serve no longer than a 3 year term. 

Once the committee is formed, coaches (OF ANY SPORT) can submit complaints to the AAA about "unethical" or "unsportsmanlike" conduct.  This could deal with running up the score or any other situation that a coach sees fit.  If it is running up the score the coach should be required to submit a written statement as well as video evidence,if needed, of the "infraction."

After the committee takes a close look at all the evidence, from both sides, they will make a ruling.  Penalties could start with warnings and move quickly to suspension of the head coach.  If the head coach still does not learn his lesson, you can begin to then punish the program by putting them on a 1 year suspension from competing in the AAA playoffs. 

If head coaches are hired to do what is best for the players, certainly after getting a warning from the AAA he/she would not continue to perform the "unethical" actions he/she is accused of. 
___________________________________________________

To me this allows coaches to be punished for their actions, not kids.   This also allows us to actually address the issue at hand...which as I understand it is "unethical" or "unsportsmanlike" actions by a FEW coaches around the state. 

Thoughts...?

Couple of problems:
1. You want 28% to 43% of this committee, yet private schools only represent 7% of the schools in AAA.  You either get 1 member or this member is voted on by his "area" schools, that way it is done the little d democratic way.

2. This committee is made up of non-coaching ADs. Most ADs used to be coaches and thus are part of the fraternity. Back in the dark ages when I was in a fraternity in college it was impossible for the members to sanction a member because, gee we are all part of the fraternity. It's possible, but who wants to be known as the bad guy.

I think you have a proposal that has merits, just not sure on what is the best way to implement it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BadDogGHSDogPound on May 09, 2009, 01:08:11 pm
For those not thinking the AAA won't get involved, the board of the AAA will vote first, I believe in June on a "Do Pass" or "Don't Pass" vote. Then with their recommendation it goes to the schools that make up the AAA to vote on the issue in August I believe. It is VERY rare that the governing body vote goes against recommendation of the AAA.

There's no way the AAA board will give this a "Do Pass" vote, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 09, 2009, 01:13:18 pm
Quote from: BadDogGHSDogPound on May 09, 2009, 01:08:11 pm
For those not thinking the AAA won't get involved, the board of the AAA will vote first, I believe in June on a "Do Pass" or "Don't Pass" vote. Then with their recommendation it goes to the schools that make up the AAA to vote on the issue in August I believe. It is VERY rare that the governing body vote goes against recommendation of the AAA.

There's no way the AAA board will give this a "Do Pass" vote, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

I agree, I would be SHOCKED if it gets any kind of green light in any way!
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 01:22:49 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:46:10 am
The Arkansas Public School Choice Act of 1989 declares that

parents will become more informed about and involved in the public educational system if...provided greater freedom to determine the most effective school.... There is no right school for every student, and permitting students to choose from among different schools with differing assets will increase the likelihood that some marginal students will stay in school and that other, more motivated students will find their full academic potential.... [G]iving more options to parents and students with respect to where they attend public school will increase the responsiveness and effectiveness of the state's schools....[1]



The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts. Students who have been denied a transfer may receive a hearing before the Arkansas State Board of Education. Students may also transfer to other schools within their district. Parents are responsible for transportation unless the district opts to provide it

I would guess there are less onerous laws regarding transfers from public to private schools.

Here are the populations of the school "districts" for some of the more recognizable private schools based on the 2000 US Census:

Little Rock--North Little Rock, AR MSA                 583,845
Fayetteville--Springdale--Rogers, AR MSA            311,121

http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/briefs/phc-t3/index.html

The public schools in these areas are predominately 7A schools.

Not bad size ponds to fish in.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: voiceofreason on May 09, 2009, 03:22:06 pm
Ricepig,

Thanks for the input...to be honest the number of members to me is certainly up for debate.  I totally agree that private schools should have less of an impact...how much less...well there is the debate.  But, good point. 

Second, my main concern on the non-coaching AD's is mainly just not allowing coaches that are currently coaching.  For example, I know the head coach at PA is also the AD, I believe that is the case with Shiloh as well.  So, if one of them get on the committee, or any other active coach, there could be some real issues with that. 

Thanks for the input.  I really enjoy it when these boards can be used for real discussion...any body else have any ideas or solutions that may allow these kids to compete against one another without a split champion?
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: johnharrison on May 09, 2009, 04:17:31 pm
got a lot of fisherman
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: menehune on May 09, 2009, 05:07:30 pm
I have taught and coached in both public schools (12 years) and private schools (14 years).  This is what I posted on one of the other threads here - JMO. 

The simplest solution is that any student that transfers from one school to another must sit out 365 days from entry to the new school before they can participate in any extracurricular activity.  They may transfer to the school at any time without penalty for academic reasons - since that is why they are attending the new school anyway - right?  They just can't participate in the extra stuff for a calendar year. 

I guarantee you - there would be a significant decrease in the amount of kids changing schools.  By the way - this was the original rule in place several years ago before they went to the admins signing off.  In the LR area - there is an agreement among the three districts NLR, LR, PCSSD that regardless of the reasons or intent - if a student transfers to another school in any of the three districts - they automatically sign off on it.

One of the reasons for the change was the FACT that numerous kids would attempt to transfer, the district/school they were leaving refused to sign off because they knew the kid was transferring for athletics; the parents or representatives of the parents threatened to sue both the district/school and the AAA so they could get their way.

It used to be that the kids who transferred from public to private had to sit out the 365 days but if they transferred from private to the public school they were assigned to, they could play immediately.  Ex: Kid plays in a JV game for a private school on a Friday night end of semester, transfers to the public school, starts for the public school the following Tuesday night against the private school they just left - True story!

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 09, 2009, 05:58:55 pm
It would also get most of the transferring done before 8th grade
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 09, 2009, 06:20:55 pm
Anybody care to tell me how many of PA's players have been enrolled since middle school or before? If memory serves me right, the entire roster last season.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 09, 2009, 07:52:45 pm
What does PA have to do with this?  :)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 09, 2009, 08:01:12 pm
Eggzactly. Schools who are doing it the right way are being slurred and slammed for playing by the rules. People need to make up their minds. If this is just about running up the score, then all I got to say is BOOO-Friggin-HOOO. Get better. Junction City has been beating the dog out teams by 50 points for years and no one is trying to kick them out of the playoffs.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 09, 2009, 08:07:25 pm
Now now, there is some legitimacy to this and we all know it.  Not all of it is final scores.  :)

I would like to see real rules with real teeth with real enforcement.  But with this litigouis society, it trumps what's right as enforcement is variable.  It's time to legitimize the rules as they exist and strengthen some.

Cheaters find ways around rules and don't fear consequences.  It's idle threats to those that do cheat and thus hollow.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 09, 2009, 08:14:47 pm
It's time for the public schools to MAKE UP THEIR MINDS. First they want a multiplier, then they want a higher multiplier, then they want to do away with that and make the privates play up, and now they want to change it yet again.

I'm not a fan of every private school, you know that, but I know of just as many, it not more issues with public schools than I have heard about private schools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: menehune on May 09, 2009, 08:32:41 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 09, 2009, 06:20:55 pm
Anybody care to tell me how many of PA's players have been enrolled since middle school or before? If memory serves me right, the entire roster last season.

Maybe those kids on the roster were enrolled since middle school last year - but that is not the way it has been historically - boys and girls - football and basketball.  And not just at PA.

This isn't about the recent events - this is about the past trends in some of the private schools as well as some of the public schools.  When kids are allowed to switch schools anytime they want without any consequences - why wouldn't they? 

And - as far as running up the score?  When a team - PA (football and girls basketball) for one - as well as Parkview girls basketball, Junction City, Camden-Fairview girls basketball (after the coach brought his daughters and their cousins with him to provide an instant team), Shiloh football, and any other team not mentioned specifically - continues to call for 50 or 60 yard passing plays when the game is clearly in hand, leaves their starters in well into the fourth quarter, adds players who clearly can't afford to attend the school and repeatedly assert they don't offer scholarships, allows kids to transfer while stating it wasn't for athletic reasons - most of us will say BULL! 

There are numerous accounts of kids who weren't going to get to play the position they wanted (Matt Jones), who weren't going to start or play much for one team but could for another, who were on a team that was good but when the seniors left the team wasn't going to be good the next year so they move to another team, etc.  Those situations have happened both in public and private schools.

Honestly - in my opinion - it is about kids who don't like the coach, the offense, the defense, the classification of their school (they think programs in the smaller classifications don't allow them to be seen), whatever AND/OR the parents who either believe they are smarter than the coach, their kids are better than they think, or that only want their kid to participate for a winning program (which doesn't teach them anything about loyalty or commitment), etc.

I honestly don't want the private schools and the public schools to play in separate state championships - that is the private school teacher/coach talking.  BUT - I do want the constant turnover from one school to the next to stop.  I believe that if you make a kid sit out a year from enrolling - much of it would. 

Military transfers, child custody, job transfers that require relocation - there are certain situations that would require some thought for an exception - but it should be extremely difficult to do.  JMO


 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 08:59:57 pm
Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 08:32:41 pm
........And - as far as running up the score?  When a team - PA (football and girls basketball) for one - as well as Parkview girls basketball, Junction City, Camden-Fairview girls basketball (after the coach brought his daughters and their cousins with him to provide an instant team), Shiloh football, and any other team not mentioned specifically - continues to call for 50 or 60 yard passing plays when the game is clearly in hand, leaves their starters in well into the fourth quarter, adds players who clearly can't afford to attend the school and repeatedly assert they don't offer scholarships, allows kids to transfer while stating it wasn't for athletic reasons - most of us will say BULL!...... 

Point of order. 

There have been seasons over the past 11 years when the Dragons have not had 60 yards passing in a SEASON.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: menehune on May 09, 2009, 09:10:50 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 08:59:57 pm
Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 08:32:41 pm
........And - as far as running up the score?  When a team - PA (football and girls basketball) for one - as well as Parkview girls basketball, Junction City, Camden-Fairview girls basketball (after the coach brought his daughters and their cousins with him to provide an instant team), Shiloh football, and any other team not mentioned specifically - continues to call for 50 or 60 yard passing plays when the game is clearly in hand, leaves their starters in well into the fourth quarter, adds players who clearly can't afford to attend the school and repeatedly assert they don't offer scholarships, allows kids to transfer while stating it wasn't for athletic reasons - most of us will say BULL!...... 

Point of order. 

There have been seasons over the past 11 years when the Dragons have not had 60 yards passing in a SEASON.

sorry dude!  I was really aiming that at Shiloh and PA - ya'll just got caught in the crossfire. 

If a team is running the ball and the other team can't stop them, there isn't much more that can be done - as long as the starters are tucked in on the bench. ;D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 09:27:45 pm
Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 08:32:41 pm
........And - as far as running up the score?  When a team - PA (football and girls basketball) for one - as well as Parkview girls basketball, Junction City, Camden-Fairview girls basketball (after the coach brought his daughters and their cousins with him to provide an instant team), Shiloh football, and any other team not mentioned specifically - continues to call for 50 or 60 yard passing plays when the game is clearly in hand, leaves their starters in well into the fourth quarter, adds players who clearly can't afford to attend the school and repeatedly assert they don't offer scholarships, allows kids to transfer while stating it wasn't for athletic reasons - most of us will say BULL!...... 

Quote from: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 08:59:57 pm
Point of order. 

There have been seasons over the past 11 years when the Dragons have not had 60 yards passing in a SEASON.

Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 09:10:50 pm
sorry dude!  I was really aiming that at Shiloh and PA - ya'll just got caught in the crossfire. 

If a team is running the ball and the other team can't stop them, there isn't much more that can be done - as long as the starters are tucked in on the bench. ;D

No problem.  Blasts, traps and sweeps with 3rd string backs and O-lines work sometimes and sometimes they don't. 

Even in blowouts, Carpenter does usually play the starters thru the first half and one series into the second half.

There have been two games I have witnessed where Carpenter didn't call off the dogs.  Both games were against the same team in Union County and there was a back story.

Oh, and there have been times when blasts, traps and sweeps with 1st string backs and O-lines didn't work either. :'(
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: menehune on May 09, 2009, 09:47:17 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 09:27:45 pm
Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 08:32:41 pm
........And - as far as running up the score?  When a team - PA (football and girls basketball) for one - as well as Parkview girls basketball, Junction City, Camden-Fairview girls basketball (after the coach brought his daughters and their cousins with him to provide an instant team), Shiloh football, and any other team not mentioned specifically - continues to call for 50 or 60 yard passing plays when the game is clearly in hand, leaves their starters in well into the fourth quarter, adds players who clearly can't afford to attend the school and repeatedly assert they don't offer scholarships, allows kids to transfer while stating it wasn't for athletic reasons - most of us will say BULL!...... 

Quote from: bleudog on May 09, 2009, 08:59:57 pm
Point of order. 

There have been seasons over the past 11 years when the Dragons have not had 60 yards passing in a SEASON.

Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 09:10:50 pm
sorry dude!  I was really aiming that at Shiloh and PA - ya'll just got caught in the crossfire. 

If a team is running the ball and the other team can't stop them, there isn't much more that can be done - as long as the starters are tucked in on the bench. ;D

No problem.  Blasts, traps and sweeps with 3rd string backs and O-lines work sometimes and sometimes they don't. 

Even in blowouts, Carpenter does usually play the starters thru the first half and one series into the second half.

There have been two games I have witnessed where Carpenter didn't call off the dogs.  Both games were against the same team in Union County and there was a back story.
Oh, and there have been times when blasts, traps and sweeps with 1st string backs and O-lines didn't work either. :'(

we all have a team that needs blistering regardless of sportsmanship - that's a different beast.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 09, 2009, 10:30:17 pm
Quote from: menehune on May 09, 2009, 08:32:41 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 09, 2009, 06:20:55 pm
Anybody care to tell me how many of PA's players have been enrolled since middle school or before? If memory serves me right, the entire roster last season.

And - as far as running up the score?  When a team - PA (football and girls basketball) for one - as well as Parkview girls basketball, Junction City, Camden-Fairview girls basketball (after the coach brought his daughters and their cousins with him to provide an instant team), Shiloh football, and any other team not mentioned specifically - continues to call for 50 or 60 yard passing plays when the game is clearly in hand, leaves their starters in well into the fourth quarter, adds players who clearly can't afford to attend the school and repeatedly assert they don't offer scholarships, allows kids to transfer while stating it wasn't for athletic reasons - most of us will say BULL! 
And I say BULL to the double standard. Two or three seasons back I got ripped to shreds on this site for saying Warren was running up the score against CAC when they got the ball back with less than a minute to go in the first half and a 35+ point lead and, instead of taking a knee and going to half, they ran their offense and scored again. I've seen my share of PA games the last couple years and I have not seen then throwing 50 yard pass plays in the situations you describe.

Kids switching schools under the guise of school choice is ten times the problem of kids leaving the public school for private schools and anyone who isn't biased against the private schools would admit it. I've seen it in Ashley County, in Bradley County, in Union County, in Jefferson County, in Pulaski County (the biggest offenders by far), and in several other counties up and down the Delta. There are layers of oversight for the privates to have to deal with. There's next to none when it's a kid moving on the public side. He just has to get it done before July. All they got to do is get a PO Box and lie about moving there.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 09, 2009, 11:30:18 pm
Baseball Finals go 2-1 public & private match-ups. Does Harrison go "told you so" or is this just a football issue?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 10, 2009, 08:02:09 am
johnharrison I see by your post that you are a man reason and fact. Being my kids attend a private school (UCA) and has always attended private since K1. I have a question you might help me with. Why is there no private school members on the AAA Board. Are private schools the odd man out on this. Another thing is why doesn't anyone complain when the private schools excel at debate teams, quiz bowl, FBLA, and science fairs. Our school has 30 seniors graduating and have Been offered 5 million in scholarship for college. NOT IN SPORTS. But in Academics. How many public schools has whole football teams that carry a 3.8 GPA ?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: transplant on May 10, 2009, 09:31:04 am
Quote from: BIGpapaU on May 10, 2009, 08:02:09 am
jHow many public schools has whole football teams that carry a 3.8 GPA ?

How many private schools have 1/3 of the team being served by the special education program?

Wonder which coaches have an easier time keeping their players eligible, motivated and in school not to mention how to play a zone.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 10, 2009, 09:52:37 am
Quote from: BIGpapaU on May 10, 2009, 08:02:09 am
why doesn't anyone complain when the private schools excel at debate teams, quiz bowl, FBLA, and science fairs. Our school has 30 seniors graduating and have Been offered 5 million in scholarship for college. NOT IN SPORTS. But in Academics. How many public schools has whole football teams that carry a 3.8 GPA ?
Actually there are complaints about the GPAs found at public schools. Not complaints against the privates, but in why the averages are not higher than they are at public institutions. That's an OLD grip! The reason you don't here any grips there against private schools is because everyone wants our children to excel in academics regardless of where they attend.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 10, 2009, 09:57:45 am
Quote from: BIGpapaU on May 10, 2009, 08:02:09 am
johnharrison I see by your post that you are a man reason and fact. Being my kids attend a private school (UCA) and has always attended private since K1. I have a question you might help me with. Why is there no private school members on the AAA Board. Are private schools the odd man out on this. Another thing is why doesn't anyone complain when the private schools excel at debate teams, quiz bowl, FBLA, and science fairs. Our school has 30 seniors graduating and have Been offered 5 million in scholarship for college. NOT IN SPORTS. But in Academics. How many public schools has whole football teams that carry a 3.8 GPA ?

Maybe it is better that way.  If the private school had one on the board it might end up as a 14 - 1 vote.  This way our principals and AD know that it is up to them to build the bridges that will facilitate communications.

It is easier to try to demonize an enemy when you don't really know them.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 10, 2009, 05:21:25 pm
You probably right about the voting members, but it still seems as if the AAA wants private schools to come to the party but not want them to dance.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: forcephil on May 10, 2009, 08:31:03 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 09, 2009, 11:30:18 pm
Baseball Finals go 2-1 public & private match-ups. Does Harrison go "told you so" or is this just a football issue?

Couldn't help but notice in today's ARDEMGAZ, of the twelve title games for baseball, softball, and soccer (please don't expel me for mentioning soccer in this football-dominated thread) 7 of the 24 teams were private schools...  wondering what the posters think, does this support the move against private schools, hurt or neither?  You don't have to respond, I am used to my threads getting basically ignored, haha
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 10, 2009, 09:47:39 pm
Quote from: forcephil on May 10, 2009, 08:31:03 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 09, 2009, 11:30:18 pm
Baseball Finals go 2-1 public & private match-ups. Does Harrison go "told you so" or is this just a football issue?

Couldn't help but notice in today's ARDEMGAZ, of the twelve title games for baseball, softball, and soccer (please don't expel me for mentioning soccer in this football-dominated thread) 7 of the 24 teams were private schools...  wondering what the posters think, does this support the move against private schools, hurt or neither?  You don't have to respond, I am used to my threads getting basically ignored, haha

this has NOTHING to do with public vs private, this is simply about people that do not like Shiloh and want a chance to stick it to them
Title: A Better Proposal
Post by: fourpeat on May 11, 2009, 09:45:56 am
I owned a business franchise years ago, and when we were deciding which town to put it in, the corporate exectutives used business demographics software to help us locate a town.  They pull up the software and a map appears.  Click on a town or specific point on the map, press the mouse button and drag the screen-pointer across, and it forms a circle around the point.  Drag it to form a radius of "X" miles, and it tells exactly how many people live in the circle.  It also tells all the demographics of those people (ie., age, race, income, how many attend high school/junior high/elementary, and much more).  My proposal is that the AAA use this software, or one equal to it, to determine the classification of private schools.  Let them decide which classification they want to be in by forming a circle around their school and making the radius the distance from the school to the athlete of that sport who lives the farthest from them.  Since the average class 3A school has a population of about 200 in 10th through 12th grades, then that would be where they would form their radius out to if they want to be 3A.  If they want to be 4A, the average is about 300.  5A is about 500, 6A is 800 and 7A is above that.  Shiloh would probably choose 7A so that they could get athletes from all over Springdale and Fayetteville.  CAC and PA would do the same.  Harding Academy would probably drag the mouse over to where the radius would be about 5-6 miles and that would put them in 5A.  Teams that would really be negatively affected would be Arkansas Baptist, Episcopal, Subiaco and a few others, but it would level the playing field, get rid of multipliers and not separate publics and privates.  I believe this is a better proposal, since the one being proposed will never pass.  This proposal has everything to do with access to athletes, and athletes have options to go there or the public school in their neighborhood.  Some private schools have access to many more athletes than others.  The private schools in Little Rock who don't want to move up can just lower their area by decreasing the radius of athletes coming in.  Remember, the circle formed around a school only extends out to the student who plays that sport.  Some of the teams of a school will be in different classifications than others.  Lets say for the football team of a school, the player that lives the farthest  away is 10 miles.  The baseball team's farthest player lives 6 miles away.  The football team would be in a higher classification than the baseball team.  I know this all seems complicated, but the private vs public situation is a very complicated situation, and thus, needs a solution that will probably be just as complicated.  But just think about this one.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: soccer fan on May 11, 2009, 10:16:24 am
Nobody seems to know that the JR High game the night before Shiloh was up 38-0 and they called timeout with 10 seconds left in the game to try and score again against Berryville's JR High.  Also, Shiloh would and could over the next couple of years win state in 5a or 6a with ease.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: blueprep on May 11, 2009, 10:26:50 am
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 01, 2009, 05:34:40 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 01, 2009, 05:20:02 pm
Those schools have a multi-million dollar advantage over shiloh in facilities alone.

But those schools don't have the opportunity every week to raise money ;) ;)


Sure they do...its called a tax increase...
well ok not every week but once a year anyway with the weekly benefit of more revenue.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 11, 2009, 10:27:24 am
Quote from: Chris on May 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
  as it is Siloam travels more than any school in the state. So we know what travel is.


ummm.............uhhh.............Mountain Home has been doing it for YEARS and hasn't said a word about it.  Their closest conference game is Searcy, 150 miles, of "two lane blacktop"  the absolute worst drive I've ever traveled for a high school game.  It's not unheard of for the bus to pull over to let people throw up beside the road. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 10:31:59 am
Quote from: soccer fan on May 11, 2009, 10:16:24 am
Nobody seems to know that the JR High game the night before Shiloh was up 38-0 and they called timeout with 10 seconds left in the game to try and score again against Berryville's JR High.  Also, Shiloh would and could over the next couple of years win state in 5a or 6a with ease.

Shiloh has good football players and are well coached, but please with the " They would or could win State with ease in the 5A and 6A "  First of all they would have to play 5A and 6A schools everyweek not every once in a while, that might humble them just a tad!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 11, 2009, 10:35:49 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 10:31:59 am
Quote from: soccer fan on May 11, 2009, 10:16:24 am
Nobody seems to know that the JR High game the night before Shiloh was up 38-0 and they called timeout with 10 seconds left in the game to try and score again against Berryville's JR High.  Also, Shiloh would and could over the next couple of years win state in 5a or 6a with ease.

Shiloh has good football players and are well coached, but please with the " They would or could win State with ease in the 5A and 6A "  First of all they would have to play 5A and 6A schools everyweek not every once in a while, that might humble them just a tad!

they would have an easier time, week to week, in 6A than they would in 5A.  5A is a tougher classification top to bottom than 6 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 10:36:40 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 11, 2009, 10:27:24 am
Quote from: Chris on May 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
  as it is Siloam travels more than any school in the state. So we know what travel is.


ummm.............uhhh.............Mountain Home has been doing it for YEARS and hasn't said a word about it.  Their closest conference game is Searcy, 150 miles, of "two lane blacktop"  the absolute worst drive I've ever traveled for a high school game.  It's not unheard of for the bus to pull over to let people throw up beside the road. 

Just for Fun I looked up My high school Football schedule for ALL games from my sophomore year in KC, Playing in the highest classification, the farthest we traveled that year was 22.6 Miles, Jr Year- 1- Game - 122 miles the next farthest was 19.5 miles...   Man how easy was that! 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: parpar on May 11, 2009, 10:38:37 am
I heard an interesting thought the other day.  the arguments, both ways, seem to come from parents, school people, maybe even business leaders in town.  I wonder how the kids would vote?  Do you think the kids would vote NOT to play a private school? 

Back in the day, Marianna had to forfeit out it's football season due to the boycott.  That left us, a small AAA school, with an open date.  So did Fort Smith Northside.  Our coaches asked us and we voted unanimously to play.  Got beat 16-0 (0-0 at halftime) but certainly enjoyed that more than an open date.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 10:42:15 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 11, 2009, 10:35:49 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 10:31:59 am
Quote from: soccer fan on May 11, 2009, 10:16:24 am
Nobody seems to know that the JR High game the night before Shiloh was up 38-0 and they called timeout with 10 seconds left in the game to try and score again against Berryville's JR High.  Also, Shiloh would and could over the next couple of years win state in 5a or 6a with ease.

Shiloh has good football players and are well coached, but please with the " They would or could win State with ease in the 5A and 6A "  First of all they would have to play 5A and 6A schools everyweek not every once in a while, that might humble them just a tad!

they would have an easier time, week to week, in 6A than they would in 5A.  5A is a tougher classification top to bottom than 6 

I think Shiloh should Play either Springdale or Har-Ber Every year as a cross town rivalry...  If they win then they got bragging rights... but my guess those wins would be few and far between!

They wouldn't lose any worse than they did to Evangel last year and it's closer to home!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 11, 2009, 10:47:34 am
During my high school years our team was not very good.  We were low in numbers, had NO strength and conditioning program, were not coached well at all, etc etc etc.  Down the road 10 miles was our biggest rival.  My home town team was ranked #2 in state when I was in 7th grade and we would have been favored to win state that year all we had to do was win the last game of the season.  The little town that was our rival had won 2 games all year, came to town tied us knocking us from the playoffs, and continued to beat our butts every year until my Sr year in which we whipped them 40-0.  We took many of beatings the years before that all were basically intimidated every game to the point where they had 21 on the board before the kickoff.
My point is, players want to play just because the love the game and because they want a chance to beat THAT team.  Im sure if you take a poll of Berryville's players that are coming up they will gladly play Shiloh.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:04:11 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 08:14:14 pm<br />Public schools get $5000+ per student.  Unless there was no room they'd take a transfer too.<br /><br />Especially if he could run.<br /><br />If I wanted to have a private school powerhouse, I'd start a Portuguese class and hire a Portuguese AAU coach and have the players transfer from three counties to the school "for its language program."<br />

little rock school district spent over 10,000 dollars per student in 2006.  i am sure it is the same each year.  most private schools don't receive that much from tuition.

Quote from: transplant on May 10, 2009, 09:31:04 am<br />
Quote from: BIGpapaU on May 10, 2009, 08:02:09 am<br />jHow many public schools has whole football teams that carry a 3.8 GPA ? <br />
<br /><br />How many private schools have 1/3 of the team being served by the special education program?<br /><br />Wonder which coaches have an easier time keeping their players eligible, motivated and in school not to mention how to play a zone.<br />

did you know that coaches in the public schools in the county have been known to put many of their stud athletes in special ed so that they would remain automatically eligible (since they cannot fail)
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: transplant on May 11, 2009, 11:16:23 am
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:04:11 am

did you know that coaches in the public schools in the county have been known to put many of their stud athletes in special ed so that they would remain automatically eligible (since they cannot fail)

I was wondering how a kid could get into "special ed",  a coach puts them in and it's done. 

They aren't run through a long battery of tests that examines everything from IQ to specific learning disabilities, evaluted by every teacher they have ever had or monitored by the federal government....a "coach" places them...good to know.

(that was sarcasm)
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 11:18:13 am
Quote from: transplant on May 11, 2009, 11:16:23 am
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:04:11 am

did you know that coaches in the public schools in the county have been known to put many of their stud athletes in special ed so that they would remain automatically eligible (since they cannot fail)

I was wondering how a kid could get into "special ed",  a coach puts them in and it's done. 

They aren't run through a long battery of tests that examines everything from IQ to specific learning disabilities, evaluted by every teacher they have ever had or monitored by the federal government....a "coach" places them...good to know.

(that was sarcasm)

Exactly..... and as a parent you would be good with that... I don't think so...  sounds fishy!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: ricepig on May 11, 2009, 11:23:27 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 11:18:13 am
Quote from: transplant on May 11, 2009, 11:16:23 am
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:04:11 am

did you know that coaches in the public schools in the county have been known to put many of their stud athletes in special ed so that they would remain automatically eligible (since they cannot fail)

I was wondering how a kid could get into "special ed",  a coach puts them in and it's done. 

They aren't run through a long battery of tests that examines everything from IQ to specific learning disabilities, evaluted by every teacher they have ever had or monitored by the federal government....a "coach" places them...good to know.

(that was sarcasm)

Exactly..... and as a parent you would be good with that... I don't think so...  sounds fishy!

Must be some really dumb coaches out there, I wonder if they were in Special Ed., for letting any of their players become ineligible.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:24:15 am
Quote from: transplant on May 11, 2009, 11:16:23 am<br />
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:04:11 am<br /><br />did you know that coaches in the public schools in the county have been known to put many of their stud athletes in special ed so that they would remain automatically eligible (since they cannot fail)<br />
<br /><br />I was wondering how a kid could get into "special ed",  a coach puts them in and it's done.  <br /><br />They aren't run through a long battery of tests that examines everything from IQ to specific learning disabilities, evaluted by every teacher they have ever had or monitored by the federal government....a "coach" places them...good to know. <br /><br />(that was sarcasm) <br />

drive to little rock and i have personal friends that are coaches that tell you exactly how they get it done.  it isn't that hard, to pretend that it is careful testing is laughable.  i couldn't care any less what they do. i no longer have a dog in the fight.   but it is DEFINITELY done.  ask any little rock or pulaski county 5, 6, or 7a coach.  any of them. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Privat
Post by: stina_ar on May 11, 2009, 11:26:47 am
Come now. Don't be vague. Name drop.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 11, 2009, 11:28:05 am
Quote from: forcephil on May 10, 2009, 08:31:03 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 09, 2009, 11:30:18 pm
Baseball Finals go 2-1 public & private match-ups. Does Harrison go "told you so" or is this just a football issue?

Couldn't help but notice in today's ARDEMGAZ, of the twelve title games for baseball, softball, and soccer (please don't expel me for mentioning soccer in this football-dominated thread) 7 of the 24 teams were private schools...  wondering what the posters think, does this support the move against private schools, hurt or neither?  You don't have to respond, I am used to my threads getting basically ignored, haha

300 or so schools in the AAA.
21 (picked that up from a JH's "Thanks Shiloh" thread) of those are private (7%).

24 teams playing for a state championship accross 3 sports on the day AAAspec noted (from the quoted post).
7 of those were private (29%)

Ok, I know this can be skewed because most of the private schools are in the smaller classifications and the larger classes may have had their finals on the other day, but still pretty stout representation in the championship round whether the private schools won or lost in Fayetteville.

What's the deal with soccer.  Looks like the private schools have already started their own playoffs there.  At least one of the finals was 100% private schools.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 11:52:58 am
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:24:15 am
Quote from: transplant on May 11, 2009, 11:16:23 am<br />
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:04:11 am<br /><br />did you know that coaches in the public schools in the county have been known to put many of their stud athletes in special ed so that they would remain automatically eligible (since they cannot fail)<br />
<br /><br />I was wondering how a kid could get into "special ed",  a coach puts them in and it's done.  <br /><br />They aren't run through a long battery of tests that examines everything from IQ to specific learning disabilities, evaluted by every teacher they have ever had or monitored by the federal government....a "coach" places them...good to know. <br /><br />(that was sarcasm) <br />

drive to little rock and i have personal friends that are coaches that tell you exactly how they get it done.  it isn't that hard, to pretend that it is careful testing is laughable.  i couldn't care any less what they do. i no longer have a dog in the fight.   but it is DEFINITELY done.  ask any little rock or pulaski county 5, 6, or 7a coach.  any of them. 

BS Meter just red-lined... 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:58:31 am
i'm not saying every coach does it, but if you know any of them enough to ask if it happens, then do it.

i should have known better than to try and give facts to people in green acres about the big city.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: transplant on May 11, 2009, 12:03:03 pm
I asked...they said they had not. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:04:11 pm
Quote from: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 11:58:31 am
i'm not saying every coach does it, but if you know any of them enough to ask if it happens, then do it.

i should have known better than to try and give facts to people in green acres about the big city.

I come from a city of 2 Million to Arkansas, and I live in Bentonville now , if Little Rock is your guideline for a big city and you are indeed in the know, all I can say is that is why the rest of the World makes fun of Arkansas, I know several coaches in Missouri, Kansas and Texas... can't imagine any of them doing that..... If that happens where you are then clean your act up!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 11, 2009, 12:05:13 pm
Hoops, we may not go as hard as you, but we still understand the value of knowing secrets.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 11, 2009, 12:05:59 pm
Work in backwards.

Go look at the various high school level soccer leagues in the state, classic and rec. 

Ask the coaches where their players go to school.

Look there for many of the good soccer teams
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 11, 2009, 12:12:36 pm
the soccer numbers will definitely skew the stats.  but i think zero privates won softball, and one won baseball.  that doesn't seem to be a big deal.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 11, 2009, 12:23:22 pm
Unfair Advantage??

If Malzahn's success at Shiloh is attributable to any type of unfair advantage, did the unfair advantage follow him to Springdale where he won the Southeastern Select national 7-on-7 Championship a state championship in Ark.'s top classification, and a #2 national ranking?  Did it follow him to the U of A where he was national offensive coordinator of the year while playing in the toughest conference in America with both hands tied behind his back?  Did the unfair advantage follow him to Tulsa where he led the nation in total offense 2 years in a row? Did he also have the the unfair advantage in his early days when he took Hughes to the state championship game. Does the unfair advantage also explain why NFL teams were trying to learn the "Wildcat" package during the 2008 season?

Did the unfair advantage follow Chris Wood from Shiloh to Nashville where he advanced to the semi-finals in his one season there? Did it then follow him to Harber where he made it to the 7A state championship game in only the second year of Harber's football program and then won the Southeastern Select National 7-on-7 championship in the third year of Harber's program?

Did Josh Floyd have an unfair advantage when his offense set 20 school records and 6 state records in his one season as offensive coordinator at Bryant?  Did he have an unfair advantage when he won the Southeastern select national 7-on-7 championship in his third season as a head coach?

Just looking at the record of very extraordinary and very quick success of Malzahn and the coaches he worked with and/or trained accross a broad level of high school football, both private and public schools and from 2A to 7A and nationally, and on to the highest level of NCAA D1 football, it seems very unlikely that this success is attributable to any type of unfair advantage. It seems much more likely that Malzahn put together all of the ingredients of a very successful football program along with a very innovative and flexible system and trained some very capable young men with a winning attitude in how to do the same thing. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Made on May 11, 2009, 12:37:42 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:04:11 pm
the rest of the World makes fun of Arkansas

Really?  Who are they laughing at?  Red Parker, one of the first pioneers in the option game, that Oregan, West Virginia, and even Texas use?  Larry Lacewell, one of the most sucessful coaches in the game?  Paul "bear" Bryant, the man with more national title rings than any other?  Gus Malzhan, the man who is still setting records and on his way to the hall of fame or his new ideas on offensive philosophy?  Frank McClellan, who holds more high school state titles than any other coach?  The man who put the wing T on the map.

I guess you are right on one thing...Texas would never do something like that, OH wait they already did send the Private schools to their own league.

I am in no way saying that I think that sending them to their own league is the best course of action, but you should know some arkansas football trivia before you start a post of how the world makes fun of arkansas.

And just as a side note....Paul "Bear" Bryant, Larry Lacewell, and Red Parker are all from the same town, and the only town in the nation with the mascot, Redbug. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 11, 2009, 12:41:40 pm
From one who remembers the "crazy money" scams of the Delta, nothing surprises me, but I can't imagine many people getting dumped in special education to maintain eligibility.

I also don't think many schools are going to lose any of their starting line to academic issues.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:44:22 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 11, 2009, 12:23:22 pm
Unfair Advantage??

If Malzahn's success at Shiloh is attributable to any type of unfair advantage, did the unfair advantage follow him to Springdale where he won the Southeastern Select national 7-on-7 Championship a state championship in Ark.'s top classification, and a #2 national ranking?  Did it follow him to the U of A where he was national offensive coordinator of the year while playing in the toughest conference in America with both hands tied behind his back?  Did the unfair advantage follow him to Tulsa where he led the nation in total offense 2 years in a row? Did he also have the the unfair advantage in his early days when he took Hughes to the state championship game. Does the unfair advantage also explain why NFL teams were trying to learn the "Wildcat" package during the 2008 season?

Did the unfair advantage follow Chris Wood from Shiloh to Nashville where he advanced to the semi-finals in his one season there? Did it then follow him to Harber where he made it to the 7A state championship game in only the second year of Harber's football program and then won the Southeastern Select National 7-on-7 championship in the third year of Harber's program?

Did Josh Floyd have an unfair advantage when his offense set 20 school records and 6 state records in his one season as offensive coordinator at Bryant?  Did he have an unfair advantage when he won the Southeastern select national 7-on-7 championship in his third season as a head coach?

Just looking at the record of very extraordinary and very quick success of Malzahn and the coaches he worked with and/or trained accross a broad level of high school football, both private and public schools and from 2A to 7A and nationally, and on to the highest level of NCAA D1 football, it seems very unlikely that this success is attributable to any type of unfair advantage. It seems much more likely that Malzahn put together all of the ingredients of a very successful football program along with a very innovative and flexible system and trained some very capable young men with a winning attitude in how to do the same thing. 


Honestly the only people in this fight are the other little farm town schools bound by geographical boundaries that feel they are on unlevel playing field for football... Shiloh is a little bitty private school that beats up on small public schools...  big deal...Shiloh never beats anybody with the same quality caliber of player base.... go Evangel...  Play Springdale and Har-Ber everyear as tune ups for the little farm town schools...Shiloh was ranked higher than both those schools last year on Max-Preps along with Southside... give me a break ... Shiloh is nothing as far as a football power in the State of Arkansas
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:59:13 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 12:37:42 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:04:11 pm
the rest of the World makes fun of Arkansas

Really?  Who are they laughing at?  Red Parker, one of the first pioneers in the option game, that Oregan, West Virginia, and even Texas use?  Larry Lacewell, one of the most sucessful coaches in the game?  Paul "bear" Bryant, the man with more national title rings than any other?  Gus Malzhan, the man who is still setting records and on his way to the hall of fame or his new ideas on offensive philosophy?  Frank McClellan, who holds more high school state titles than any other coach?  The man who put the wing T on the map.

I guess you are right on one thing...Texas would never do something like that, OH wait they already did send the Private schools to their own league.

I am in no way saying that I think that sending them to their own league is the best course of action, but you should know some arkansas football trivia before you start a post of how the world makes fun of arkansas.

And just as a side note....Paul "Bear" Bryant, Larry Lacewell, and Red Parker are all from the same town, and the only town in the nation with the mascot, Redbug. 

Wow.... you brought up a few good folks related to football trivia, That's awesome!  Wake up! You live in one of the poorest , dumbest states in the the United States ( According to Statistics, not my opinion ), Not that everyone falls in those categories, I like the people of Arkansas, but as an outsider when you witness the level of stupidity and child like qualities of the topics and level of debates it can certainly become humorous to those of us from the outside world!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.  Its easy from the outside looking in to say things of ignorance, I am more than welcome to indulge any information that I have to help the assumption that as a state we are dumb.  The statistics are biased, the average student in Arkansas realizes that the testing done has no merit on the future of the individual, due to the jobs that offered in their area.  Like most people in the world they live in a bubble, because they want to remain close to family because it makes them feel safe.  So in essance the statistics say, that kids are the failure of thier parents?  Really gonna win some votes on that stand point.

I guess I was lucky that my parents are from out of state....
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 11, 2009, 01:14:06 pm
It could be worse. We could be from West Virginia...
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HA_Fan on May 11, 2009, 01:14:34 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.

Much like the ignorance about private schools is what brings about the sterotypes of their students, parents, coaches and administrators.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:30:38 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 11, 2009, 01:14:34 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.

Much like the ignorance about private schools is what brings about the sterotypes of their students, parents, coaches and administrators.

I was waiting on that one....the main difference, there is public knowledge that people refuse to look at in reference to the state of Arkansas.  Where is the public knowledge about private schools?  Where are the records of who is on "financial based assistance"?  Where is the public records of who all applied as well as got turned down from attending a private school?

I understand that Shiloh this year had 192 incredible students, they worked hard, they excelled in the classroom, and put everything they had into their school....Now please show me a school in the 4a who have 192 students on that caliber?  It would be nice if a public school could cut the dead weight that is lying around and bringing the entire system down.  The "no child left behind act" actually is prohibiting the public school teachers from doing their job, when they have to focus more on discipline than on that of teaching how on earth are they setting any of the kids up to succeed?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 11, 2009, 01:33:51 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:30:38 pm
  The "no child left behind act" actually is prohibiting the public school teachers from doing their job, when they have to focus more on discipline than on that of teaching how on earth are they setting any of the kids up to succeed?

And I can understand why any parent might decide a private school is a bargain compared to that.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HA_Fan on May 11, 2009, 01:43:35 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:30:38 pm
I was waiting on that one....the main difference, there is public knowledge that people refuse to look at in reference to the state of Arkansas.  Where is the public knowledge about private schools?

Public knowledge doesn't matter where ignorant assumptions reside.  I had a friend from the east coast who went to college at Harding.  When he went home on the first break, a guy asked him if people here wore shoes.  He was completely serious.

Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:30:38 pmWhere are the records of who is on "financial based assistance"?  Where is the public records of who all applied as well as got turned down from attending a private school?

The same place your private financial and academic records are.  PRIVATE.

None of us have any right to know who does and does not get aid or who was denied enrollment.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 01:49:15 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 11, 2009, 01:14:34 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.

Much like the ignorance about private schools is what brings about the sterotypes of their students, parents, coaches and administrators.

I left the KC area where both of my sons were accepted and planned to attend a Jesuit Catholic High School at $11,000 each per year ( we are not Catholic ), The school dominates in the highest classification in sports and they dominate in academics in Missouri, both my sons have excelled in Arkansas in sports, music and academics.

I may have ignorance to how ignorant Arkansas can be but I'm not without some experience to the facts of your arguments of the Private vs Public issue!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BGx2 on May 11, 2009, 01:58:52 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:44:22 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 11, 2009, 12:23:22 pm
Unfair Advantage??

If Malzahn's success at Shiloh is attributable to any type of unfair advantage, did the unfair advantage follow him to Springdale where he won the Southeastern Select national 7-on-7 Championship a state championship in Ark.'s top classification, and a #2 national ranking?  Did it follow him to the U of A where he was national offensive coordinator of the year while playing in the toughest conference in America with both hands tied behind his back?  Did the unfair advantage follow him to Tulsa where he led the nation in total offense 2 years in a row? Did he also have the the unfair advantage in his early days when he took Hughes to the state championship game. Does the unfair advantage also explain why NFL teams were trying to learn the "Wildcat" package during the 2008 season?

Did the unfair advantage follow Chris Wood from Shiloh to Nashville where he advanced to the semi-finals in his one season there? Did it then follow him to Harber where he made it to the 7A state championship game in only the second year of Harber's football program and then won the Southeastern Select National 7-on-7 championship in the third year of Harber's program?

Did Josh Floyd have an unfair advantage when his offense set 20 school records and 6 state records in his one season as offensive coordinator at Bryant?  Did he have an unfair advantage when he won the Southeastern select national 7-on-7 championship in his third season as a head coach?

Just looking at the record of very extraordinary and very quick success of Malzahn and the coaches he worked with and/or trained accross a broad level of high school football, both private and public schools and from 2A to 7A and nationally, and on to the highest level of NCAA D1 football, it seems very unlikely that this success is attributable to any type of unfair advantage. It seems much more likely that Malzahn put together all of the ingredients of a very successful football program along with a very innovative and flexible system and trained some very capable young men with a winning attitude in how to do the same thing. 


Honestly the only people in this fight are the other little farm town schools bound by geographical boundaries that feel they are on unlevel playing field for football... Shiloh is a little bitty private school that beats up on small public schools...  big deal...Shiloh never beats anybody with the same quality caliber of player base.... go Evangel...  Play Springdale and Har-Ber everyear as tune ups for the little farm town schools...Shiloh was ranked higher than both those schools last year on Max-Preps along with Southside... give me a break ... Shiloh is nothing as far as a football power in the State of Arkansas

Sorry if I offended anyone.  I didn't think I said anything about Shiloh being a football power in Arkansas.  I just meant to say the extraordinary success of Malzahan and certain coaches he trained in his system at all levels of high school and college football at both public and private schools leads me to believe that the success is not caused by unfair advantage like recruiting or whatever else.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:02:25 pm
You are correct on personal records should be private, I am not asking how much any one makes per year.  Why is it private to hide the salaries of the teachers and coaches?  heck they can post that in the Newspaper for the public schools.

The only reason to keep it private is so that the outside looking in will always have their assumptions and accusations.  One easy way to solve all of it is to just lay it out on the table.  What percentage of athletes draw financial aid, not asking for names, just a percentage.  What percentage of the school draws financial aid that are not athletes.  It doesn't matter how I word it, these questions will never be answered, because the private schools are "above" all of that.

Quote from: johnharrison on May 11, 2009, 01:33:51 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:30:38 pm
  The "no child left behind act" actually is prohibiting the public school teachers from doing their job, when they have to focus more on discipline than on that of teaching how on earth are they setting any of the kids up to succeed?

And I can understand why any parent might decide a private school is a bargain compared to that.

You are correct, it is a bargain.  But once again, I challenge anyone to find a 4a school with 192 students who are of this caliber.

192 students who all have an extra curricular activity, 192 students who will go to college.  In all honesty that is not that many, 192 over 3 years comes to around 65 kids per year who will go to college, in a public 4a school the classes will have around 100 students per class, I don't know of a single 4a school that has a 65% college graduation rate.  The number is more like 20%. 

So in essance, 4a schools have roughly 60 kids who would compare to the quality of Shiloh's 192...bad part is with out the no child left behind act, the number could be doubled.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:04:23 pm
and actually billy, I am still on the fence with public versus private, There is no decision that will make all parties happy, I am not sure there is even one that won't end up in a stink.  No one likes the current situation, no one wants to be the reason for change.   Most of all no one wants the blame if it goes wrong.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 02:07:05 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 11, 2009, 01:58:52 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 12:44:22 pm
Quote from: BGx2 on May 11, 2009, 12:23:22 pm
Unfair Advantage??

If Malzahn's success at Shiloh is attributable to any type of unfair advantage, did the unfair advantage follow him to Springdale where he won the Southeastern Select national 7-on-7 Championship a state championship in Ark.'s top classification, and a #2 national ranking?  Did it follow him to the U of A where he was national offensive coordinator of the year while playing in the toughest conference in America with both hands tied behind his back?  Did the unfair advantage follow him to Tulsa where he led the nation in total offense 2 years in a row? Did he also have the the unfair advantage in his early days when he took Hughes to the state championship game. Does the unfair advantage also explain why NFL teams were trying to learn the "Wildcat" package during the 2008 season?

Did the unfair advantage follow Chris Wood from Shiloh to Nashville where he advanced to the semi-finals in his one season there? Did it then follow him to Harber where he made it to the 7A state championship game in only the second year of Harber's football program and then won the Southeastern Select National 7-on-7 championship in the third year of Harber's program?

Did Josh Floyd have an unfair advantage when his offense set 20 school records and 6 state records in his one season as offensive coordinator at Bryant?  Did he have an unfair advantage when he won the Southeastern select national 7-on-7 championship in his third season as a head coach?

Just looking at the record of very extraordinary and very quick success of Malzahn and the coaches he worked with and/or trained accross a broad level of high school football, both private and public schools and from 2A to 7A and nationally, and on to the highest level of NCAA D1 football, it seems very unlikely that this success is attributable to any type of unfair advantage. It seems much more likely that Malzahn put together all of the ingredients of a very successful football program along with a very innovative and flexible system and trained some very capable young men with a winning attitude in how to do the same thing. 


Honestly the only people in this fight are the other little farm town schools bound by geographical boundaries that feel they are on unlevel playing field for football... Shiloh is a little bitty private school that beats up on small public schools...  big deal...Shiloh never beats anybody with the same quality caliber of player base.... go Evangel...  Play Springdale and Har-Ber everyear as tune ups for the little farm town schools...Shiloh was ranked higher than both those schools last year on Max-Preps along with Southside... give me a break ... Shiloh is nothing as far as a football power in the State of Arkansas

Sorry if I offended anyone.  I didn't think I said anything about Shiloh being a football power in Arkansas.  I just meant to say the extraordinary success of Malzahan and certain coaches he trained in his system at all levels of high school and college football at both public and private schools leads me to believe that the success is not caused by unfair advantage like recruiting or whatever else.
I don't think you need to apologize!

Malzahan is a good coach period!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 11, 2009, 02:11:18 pm
What a ridiculous argument.  This is about here and now.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HA_Fan on May 11, 2009, 02:13:34 pm
Thought I would do a little fact checking.  Here are the forms for two schools' financial aid.

PA - Handled by a company in Princeton, New Jersey.
http://admin.nais.org/files/PDFs/PFS_Worksheet_2008-09.pdf

LRCA - Handled by a company in Hernando, Mississippi
http://www.ffna1.com/Net%20Worth%20Statement%202.pdf

You should note that both companies handle financial aid decisions for lots of schools all over the country, and neither form has a blank for 40 times, bench max or position in a given sport.

Aid is truly need based and decisions are made by a third party organization, just as the AAA rules require.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 02:14:47 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:04:23 pm
and actually billy, I am still on the fence with public versus private, There is no decision that will make all parties happy, I am not sure there is even one that won't end up in a stink.  No one likes the current situation, no one wants to be the reason for change.   Most of all no one wants the blame if it goes wrong.

This argument will go on till the end of time in every state at every level, it will not ever be fixed to everyones satisfaction ever, new set of Parents, Players and Coaches and it starts all over again!
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HA_Fan on May 11, 2009, 02:19:55 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:02:25 pm
You are correct on personal records should be private, I am not asking how much any one makes per year.  Why is it private to hide the salaries of the teachers and coaches?  heck they can post that in the Newspaper for the public schools.

Because the citizens buying those newspapers are the ones paying the salaries.  Don't let the fact that they are unpublished make you believe they are higher than public school salaries.  Generally, the state salaries and benefits are much better.

Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:02:25 pm
The only reason to keep it private is so that the outside looking in will always have their assumptions and accusations.  One easy way to solve all of it is to just lay it out on the table.

That would make no more sense than requiring every poster here to have their salaries in their signature lines.  It's no one's business but your own.

Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:02:25 pm
What percentage of athletes draw financial aid, not asking for names, just a percentage.  What percentage of the school draws financial aid that are not athletes.

Because that information doesn't tell you anything.  Assuming that every eligible student applied for financial aid, all it would tell you is the percentage of people who are athletes whose family income is under a certain amount.  There is nothing to be gained by releasing that information.

Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 02:02:25 pmIt doesn't matter how I word it, these questions will never be answered, because the private schools are "above" all of that.

No, they just know that whatever they release is private information and will be twisted to suit the argument of the opposing side.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 11, 2009, 02:22:08 pm
I misread "Malzhan is God" as "Private School Proposal".
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: transplant on May 11, 2009, 02:55:43 pm
Is there a waiting list at PA, Shiloh, CAC, LRCA or HA?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: blueprep on May 11, 2009, 03:18:35 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 01:49:15 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 11, 2009, 01:14:34 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.

Much like the ignorance about private schools is what brings about the sterotypes of their students, parents, coaches and administrators.

I left the KC area where both of my sons were accepted and planned to attend a Jesuit Catholic High School at $11,000 each per year ( we are not Catholic ), The school dominates in the highest classification in sports and they dominate in academics in Missouri, both my sons have excelled in Arkansas in sports, music and academics.

I may have ignorance to how ignorant Arkansas can be but I'm not without some experience to the facts of your arguments of the Private vs Public issue!

Rockhurst?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 03:24:01 pm
Quote from: blueprep on May 11, 2009, 03:18:35 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 01:49:15 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 11, 2009, 01:14:34 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.

Much like the ignorance about private schools is what brings about the sterotypes of their students, parents, coaches and administrators.

I left the KC area where both of my sons were accepted and planned to attend a Jesuit Catholic High School at $11,000 each per year ( we are not Catholic ), The school dominates in the highest classification in sports and they dominate in academics in Missouri, both my sons have excelled in Arkansas in sports, music and academics.

I may have ignorance to how ignorant Arkansas can be but I'm not without some experience to the facts of your arguments of the Private vs Public issue!

Rockhurst?

Bingo- Coach Tony S.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HA_Fan on May 11, 2009, 04:11:47 pm
Quote from: transplant on May 11, 2009, 02:55:43 pm
Is there a waiting list at PA, Shiloh, CAC, LRCA or HA?

I can't speak for all of them.  It usually depends on the grade.  Schools I know of give priority to students who have siblings already at the school, then it's first come first served (with athletics having ZERO influence on who gets in).
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 11, 2009, 04:25:25 pm
Billy: you will never convince any die hard Arkansan that they don't have the best of everything here including academics and athletics.  I guess you don't realize how "home" fits into the larger scheme of things until you move away and see what is outside the borders of your little corner of the earth.  My daughter lives in Warner Robins GA, the public schools down there rival the private ones here as far as facilities and test scores.  Just on the drive down there you pass numerous public schools in GA, AL, TN and MS that look like a typical private here or top of the line public (ie: Bentonville).  That is just one example I have personally seen that makes me wonder why she'd ever want to move back.  A few years back I lived in California, (bay area) but commuted to Concord to work out.  Concord is home to a school that has one of the best high school football programs in the nation, De la Salle.  I think it was in the 90's but they had the longest winning streak in the nation, they play public and private schools in their league also travel out of state.  De la Salle on an "average" year would kick the ever living crap out of Springdale 05. 
It's perception, we always seem to thing what we have is better than the next guys, until you actually step away from things and take a look. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 04:42:39 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 11, 2009, 04:25:25 pm
Billy: you will never convince any die hard Arkansan that they don't have the best of everything here including academics and athletics.  I guess you don't realize how "home" fits into the larger scheme of things until you move away and see what is outside the borders of your little corner of the earth.  My daughter lives in Warner Robins GA, the public schools down there rival the private ones here as far as facilities and test scores.  Just on the drive down there you pass numerous public schools in GA, AL, TN and MS that look like a typical private here or top of the line public (ie: Bentonville).  That is just one example I have personally seen that makes me wonder why she'd ever want to move back.  A few years back I lived in California, (bay area) but commuted to Concord to work out.  Concord is home to a school that has one of the best high school football programs in the nation, De la Salle.  I think it was in the 90's but they had the longest winning streak in the nation, they play public and private schools in their league also travel out of state.  De la Salle on an "average" year would kick the ever living crap out of Springdale 05. 
It's perception, we always seem to thing what we have is better than the next guys, until you actually step away from things and take a look. 

I agree , and that was the point I was trying to make..Thanks
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Chris on May 11, 2009, 04:52:56 pm
Hey Bugs how bout doing some research;  check and see what Siloam's closest game would be if they had to play in the 6a south or east.   Maybe you  missed it the last time,  right now Siloam travels more than "any" team in the state.  By the way just because Mt. Home has to travel alot as well does not make it okay.  Thank goodness at least the members of the AAA had some common sense in this matter.




Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 11, 2009, 10:27:24 am
Quote from: Chris on May 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
  as it is Siloam travels more than any school in the state. So we know what travel is.


ummm.............uhhh.............Mountain Home has been doing it for YEARS and hasn't said a word about it.  Their closest conference game is Searcy, 150 miles, of "two lane blacktop"  the absolute worst drive I've ever traveled for a high school game.  It's not unheard of for the bus to pull over to let people throw up beside the road. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 11, 2009, 06:05:45 pm
Quote from: Chris on May 11, 2009, 04:52:56 pm
Hey Bugs how bout doing some research;  check and see what Siloam's closest game would be if they had to play in the 6a south or east.   Maybe you  missed it the last time,  right now Siloam travels more than "any" team in the state.  By the way just because Mt. Home has to travel alot as well does not make it okay.  Thank goodness at least the members of the AAA had some common sense in this matter.


If you can't afford to Travel then don't play or play the close teams more than once a year if it's a money issue!



Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 11, 2009, 10:27:24 am
Quote from: Chris on May 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
  as it is Siloam travels more than any school in the state. So we know what travel is.


ummm.............uhhh.............Mountain Home has been doing it for YEARS and hasn't said a word about it.  Their closest conference game is Searcy, 150 miles, of "two lane blacktop"  the absolute worst drive I've ever traveled for a high school game.  It's not unheard of for the bus to pull over to let people throw up beside the road. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 11, 2009, 10:50:04 pm
Quote from: Chris on May 11, 2009, 04:52:56 pm
Hey Bugs how bout doing some research;  check and see what Siloam's closest game would be if they had to play in the 6a south or east.   Maybe you  missed it the last time,  right now Siloam travels more than "any" team in the state.  By the way just because Mt. Home has to travel alot as well does not make it okay.  Thank goodness at least the members of the AAA had some common sense in this matter.




Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 11, 2009, 10:27:24 am
Quote from: Chris on May 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
  as it is Siloam travels more than any school in the state. So we know what travel is.


ummm.............uhhh.............Mountain Home has been doing it for YEARS and hasn't said a word about it.  Their closest conference game is Searcy, 150 miles, of "two lane blacktop"  the absolute worst drive I've ever traveled for a high school game.  It's not unheard of for the bus to pull over to let people throw up beside the road. 


you'll have to show me how much SS travels now, in conference to convince me they travel more than MH
never mind I'll do the math for you.

Mountain Home to:
Searcy            136
Jonesboro        126
Jacksonville      170
west memphis   188
marion             185
parkview          177
hall                 177

total               1159

Siloam Springs to:
Greenbrier     196
Vilonia          200
Morrilton       169
CAC             205
Greenwood     85
Alma             75
Harrison         97

Total:         1027

may I also not that SS's travel is on 4 lane, while MH travels mostly on 2 lane, curvy, up and down highway.  Not only does MH travel more during a conf season the travel is "nasty" too.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: oldguy_21 on May 12, 2009, 08:16:23 am
When considering the travel distances and conference alignment you can't just think football where they go on Friday night and have the weekend to recover.  Consider the other sports.  Think about Siloam Springs going to West Memphis for a Tuesday night basketball game.  You take the kids out of school a half day early and they don't get back until 3 in the morning and are expected to be at school by 8.  Is that fair to the kids?
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 12, 2009, 09:15:12 am
Actually, that's not bad at all. Something like that could be done on a two or three year lock and then give the schools the option to reclass after each 2~3 year cycle. Then it would be up to the school where they class but would insure at least a somewhat level playing field across the board. Not bad!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Made on May 12, 2009, 10:28:18 am
Wonder if this thread will get as long as the gas price in your town thread....
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 12, 2009, 10:35:48 am
Quote from: oldguy_21 on May 12, 2009, 08:16:23 am
When considering the travel distances and conference alignment you can't just think football where they go on Friday night and have the weekend to recover.  Consider the other sports.  Think about Siloam Springs going to West Memphis for a Tuesday night basketball game.  You take the kids out of school a half day early and they don't get back until 3 in the morning and are expected to be at school by 8.  Is that fair to the kids?

go back, read the statements.  Chris said SS travels more NOW than any other team in the state.  I was just saying that MH did, and posted the stats to prove it.

IF..............IF.............SS had moved up, making them travel to the other corners of the state would have been stupid, just as it would be to make VB travel like that.

Leave 7A alone, put the next 32 schools in 6A, etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 12, 2009, 10:47:52 am
Quote from: QF© on May 11, 2009, 02:11:18 pm
What a ridiculous argument.  This is about here and now.

Here and Now- 1 school is what everyone is talking about, Shiloh... 192 Students playing at the 4A level and winning...big deal.... most of the couple of hundred high schools in Arkansas could care less about Shiloh and the farm schools they beat up on.

But let's make a state wide change that effects all schools...  That's smart!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: fhc on May 12, 2009, 11:05:00 am
Here's the big issue. The private schools don't want to play each other because they might start losing. If shiloh, LRC, CAC, PA, Harding A., etc all had to play each other and form their own conferences, then they would not be beating up on as many teams or winning as many games. Bottom line they don't want that. Besides, what is the big deal with playing in your own conferences. In the past there weren't enough private schools to do this, but now there is. Play in your own private school league like West Memphis Christian does.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 12, 2009, 11:18:46 am
Quote from: fhc on May 12, 2009, 11:05:00 am
Here's the big issue. The private schools don't want to play each other because they might start losing. If shiloh, LRC, CAC, PA, Harding A., etc all had to play each other and form their own conferences, then they would not be beating up on as many teams or winning as many games. Bottom line they don't want that. Besides, what is the big deal with playing in your own conferences. In the past there weren't enough private schools to do this, but now there is. Play in your own private school league like West Memphis Christian does.

Private schools are no more afraid of losing than public schools, Public schools already demand that private schools play above their classification because of the recruitment issue and scholarship issue and they still whine like babies when they get beat up on,  Berryville started this and they are just a crappy football team... period... if they only lost 1 game a year each of the last 3 years and that was to Shiloh they might have an argument... but they are just a BAD football program!...Get Better or Shut up!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 12, 2009, 11:36:22 am
I thought PA, CAC and LRCA played some sports in the same classification

Same for Harding Episcopal, Arkansas Baptist

Same for St. Joe, St. Joe, UC,  etc

The fact is, the biggest squirming to avoid a playing a particular opponent involved Nashville.  "1.5, 1.75 ooops we meant 1.77"
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: oldguy_21 on May 12, 2009, 12:22:44 pm
I read the statements before I posted.  You attacked Siloam Springs for whining about conference alignment.  Then you compared their situation to Mt. Home who clearly travels more than SS.  With that you made the assertion that SS should just deal with having to go to another corner of the state because MH deals with their travel.  The problem is MH goes as far as they will ever go.  No realignment will ever have them travel any more.  You attacked SS for something that any sane administration would do.  If you can't follow maybe you should go back and read the statements.

(For the record, in no way am I a SS supporter.)
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: Rattler4Life on May 12, 2009, 01:23:55 pm
Very good idea.  The technology is there lets put it to a good use.  For that matter it could be used on public schools as well considering the school of choice thing.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 12, 2009, 01:52:01 pm
Quote from: fhc on May 12, 2009, 11:05:00 am
The private schools don't want to play each other because they might start losing.

The private schools aren't the ones attempting to get rid of good competition.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 12, 2009, 01:58:40 pm
Quote from: fourpeat on May 11, 2009, 09:45:56 am
Harding Academy would probably drag the mouse over to where the radius would be about 5-6 miles and that would put them in 5A.

Yes, because a team that has won one state championship in football in the last 25 years and has broken none of the existing AAA rules really needs to be moved up TWO classifications.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: fourpeat on May 12, 2009, 02:40:43 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 12, 2009, 01:58:40 pm
Quote from: fourpeat on May 11, 2009, 09:45:56 am
Harding Academy would probably drag the mouse over to where the radius would be about 5-6 miles and that would put them in 5A.

Yes, because a team that has won one state championship in football in the last 25 years and has broken none of the existing AAA rules really needs to be moved up TWO classifications.
Ok, which would you rather have, a seperate playoff with HA mixed in with PA, Shiloh, CAC and Catholic?  Or, the option of classification?  Your football team radius could be a couple of miles, possibly putting you in 2A or 3A.  It would be the school officials' choice.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 12, 2009, 03:21:08 pm
Quote from: fourpeat on May 12, 2009, 02:40:43 pm
Ok, which would you rather have, a seperate playoff with HA mixed in with PA, Shiloh, CAC and Catholic?  Or, the option of classification? 

Neither.

The current system works as well as any.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: Uncle Dan on May 12, 2009, 03:39:02 pm
2.0 has a point.  I had the chance to attend nearly all of the state championship games over the last 10 years.  The attendance over the last couple of years has been impressive even for the lower classes. 
in fact, i would argue that HS football may well be experiencing its height in popularity.  Do we really want to mess with something that is so intriguing? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: lakers on May 12, 2009, 03:54:48 pm
I know I may be late on this b/c I've had my head burried in the sand with more important things but the biggest problem I believe with private schools is the perceived arrogance by the coaches, players, parents and fans. I know that some public schools are like that and have been like that in the past. And if the mercy rule was in effect back in the hey day of AA or A football, there wouldn't have been an 82-6 score.

I've been around enough private schools -- religious and prep schools -- that those people think they are owed something for you, me or Joe Schmo, for stepping inside their gym, football field, etc. Yes, fans are going to act stupidly at public schools...I know this for a fact but when CAC, PA, Harding A, Shiloh, don't get their way, they throw a fit. Heck, look at what the Arkansas Baptist dad did a couple of years ago, trying to sue the AAA b/c of the 1.75 multiplier. He should have just shut his mouth and went about his business.

Not all private schools are this arrogant. Lutheran is getting stuck in the middle of all this and it isn't fair to them. They've had a hard enough time trying to field a football team the last couple of years. And I feel the same way, to a certain extent with Conway Christian or St. Joseph, even though those fans do know how to show their rear ends just as much as the ones from PA and CAC.

Catholic is another that doesn't have a gripe because they play in the state's largest classification.

Something needs to be done in some form or fashion. It would be interesting to see if the other private schools in Arkansas, such as Lee Academy or Marvell Academy would want to quit the Mississippi Private School League and join up with the Arkansas teams.

Good luck to all. I personally hope something is done about some of the private schools or at least their arrogance.

And by the way, if AAA or some of their peeps are listening, go back to the old Classification for the top 32 schools for all sports other than football. Having all 16 teams in both 7A and 6A make state tournaments, is a joke, a big-time joke.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: lakers on May 12, 2009, 03:57:25 pm
Oh, I almost forgot. I'm so glad that the Arizona' men's basketball team lost in the NCAA Tournament because every time I saw them, all I could think of was Russ Pennell's dad when he was coach at LR Christian. I don't claim to understand what perils that the two from Camaroom were going through before coming to the United States but LRC bought themselves a state basketball title. And heck, they beat PA in the championship game. Recruiting? Maybe, maybe not but it sure as heck doesn't look good for anyone invovled.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 12, 2009, 04:05:56 pm
Quote from: lakers on May 12, 2009, 03:54:48 pm
I've been around enough private schools -- religious and prep schools -- that those people think they are owed something for you, me or Joe Schmo, for stepping inside their gym, football field, etc.

Other than the price of admission, no.


Quote from: lakers on May 12, 2009, 03:54:48 pmwhen CAC, PA, Harding A, Shiloh, don't get their way, they throw a fit.

Examples?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Chris on May 12, 2009, 04:18:32 pm
Bugs the mileage data that i referenced came from the AAA.  Take that up with them if you will.  My point being Siloam travels alot now.  As Oldguy pointed out.  What they would have traveled being in 6-A  would make Mt. Home's travel look like a Sunday stroll.  Do the math on that one if you will.  Your point of attacking the Siloam Springs Administration on this issue is irresponsible and shows a total lack of understanding.  By association you also attack the majority of the administrators in this state who clearly saw the problem and addressed the issue. 

     Bugs as you pointed out in another thread Van Buren now is in the situation Siloam avoided;  thank goodness the change is in place to help.


Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 13, 2009, 08:48:24 am
The reason I "attacked" SS was simply because they were all up in arms about a situation that may or may not have happened.  They "suspected" they would move up to 6A and before any data was compiled they were jumping up and down about their "supposed" travel issues when other alternatives were out there that didn't impact the entire state. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 13, 2009, 01:19:12 pm
Berryville did not start this. Berryville finally stepped up with a proposed solution to what every public school in 4A or lower has been crying about for the last decade. Ignorant proposal? Yes. At least they stepped up and tried instead of whining about it around the dinner table.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Baitshop on May 13, 2009, 03:41:26 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 13, 2009, 01:19:12 pm
Berryville did not start this. Berryville finally stepped up with a proposed solution to what every public school in 4A or lower has been crying about for the last decade. Ignorant proposal? Yes. At least they stepped up and tried instead of whining about it around the dinner table.

Preach on, brother!!........you may agree or disagree with the proposal but the is nothing but the truth in this post......
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: Kingfisher on May 13, 2009, 07:25:27 pm
Ok. Let's do that. But to make it accurate, you have to factor in the median household income in said radius and determine the amount of population that could afford the tuition cost of the private school that the child/children would be attending, then take that number and divide them by the amount of educational institutions said child/children could possibly attend, then factor in the amount who actually choose private school education. Shiloh and PA both have less than 350 students in their High School. Do you honestly believe that population base is a realistic criteria for this proposal. Its absurd at best.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 13, 2009, 11:30:24 pm
If more public schools would focus on beating the privateers (Glen Rose, 2007) instead of whining about getting rid of them, they would realize the privateers aren't as "unstoppable" as they think.

2008 State Championships 7A-2A:
Private Schools-2
Public Schools-4

Hmmm.......
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 13, 2009, 11:38:31 pm
Yeah, you definitely proved your point with that stat.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 07:32:14 am
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 13, 2009, 11:30:24 pm
If more public schools would focus on beating the privateers (Glen Rose, 2007) instead of whining about getting rid of them, they would realize the privateers aren't as "unstoppable" as they think.

2008 State Championships 7A-2A:
Private Schools-2
Public Schools-4

Hmmm.......
Thats the problem,private schools won over 30% of all availible state championships,thats up from 10 % just a few years ago.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 07:40:57 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 07:32:14 am
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 13, 2009, 11:30:24 pm
If more public schools would focus on beating the privateers (Glen Rose, 2007) instead of whining about getting rid of them, they would realize the privateers aren't as "unstoppable" as they think.

2008 State Championships 7A-2A:
Private Schools-2
Public Schools-4

Hmmm.......
Thats the problem,private schools won over 30% of all availible state championships,thats up from 10 % just a few years ago.
If that is the issue, then the public schools will lose their butts in court when the privates sue. There had better be legal grounds for the split, not, "We can't beat you, so we are going to kick you out." garbage. They're winning too  much is the dumbest reason for the split of all. Anyone with that reasoning is what is wrong with sports right now.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 07:46:27 am
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 12, 2009, 03:21:08 pm
Quote from: fourpeat on May 12, 2009, 02:40:43 pm
Ok, which would you rather have, a seperate playoff with HA mixed in with PA, Shiloh, CAC and Catholic?  Or, the option of classification?

Neither.

The current system works as well as any.
The current system works OK for most private schools.Their are a few however that are being allowed,due to the current system,too play down in a lower classification than they should be . I have said before that enrollment is not a good indicator for comparing pubs to privs. A change or exception needs to happen to adjust for these loopholes. I think something will have too happen or this snowball is just going to get bigger and bigger till it does!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: blueprep on May 14, 2009, 09:48:51 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.

and +1 more...
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 09:54:21 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 07:40:57 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 07:32:14 am
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 13, 2009, 11:30:24 pm
If more public schools would focus on beating the privateers (Glen Rose, 2007) instead of whining about getting rid of them, they would realize the privateers aren't as "unstoppable" as they think.

2008 State Championships 7A-2A:
Private Schools-2
Public Schools-4

Hmmm.......
Thats the problem,private schools won over 30% of all availible state championships,thats up from 10 % just a few years ago.
If that is the issue, then the public schools will lose their butts in court when the privates sue. There had better be legal grounds for the split, not, "We can't beat you, so we are going to kick you out." garbage. They're winning too  much is the dumbest reason for the split of all. Anyone with that reasoning is what is wrong with sports right now.
[/quote)
It is the issue,if they weren't winning so much their wouldn't be a problem,no one would complain.Showing that such a small percentage of schools are winning  a high percentage of the titles proves we have a flawed system. I'm not totally for seperation,some private schools fit good in the classification they are in,but some need to be changed for the sake of competetion. If that could be done,this seperation movement would die down. If nothing changes it will continue and grow larger until something is done.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 14, 2009, 10:02:24 am
You know, that is a good point.  The problem isn't so much the private schools fault as they are SUPPOSED to prepare and play hard and try to score.

The real problem (surprise) is the AAA who seems to be unable to get the private teams in the correct class.

Addressing that is NOT just a private school issue, there are plenty of public school teams who win "more than their share".  Sure the reason the public schools give is "we work hard, we have great coaches, we have great parental support, we have great booster clubs, we can't help it if kids move from 15 miles away, etc.

Is there really any difference?

Put people (public and private) where they are competive.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: GLion Alum on May 14, 2009, 10:04:13 am
Greetings from the infamous one who started this thread!  For once, I've been reading more than posting, primarily because I have mixed thoughts about all of this.  I do have some questions that perhaps some of you can answer for me:

1.  Where and why did the multiplier rule originate?  That happened before I became acquainted with FF and lost my innocence.

2. If no changes are made, would those of you against change feel differently if Shiloh and PA play for the 4A title in 2010...and again in 2011?

3.  Would the 7A-West teams be willing to accept Shiloh into their conference?  Would Shiloh be willing to join them?  I know there are those who disagree, but I think Shiloh would be able to compete very well with them for the next two years and probably for the foreseeable future.  (And, yes, I watched the Fayetteville-Shiloh scrimmage game before last season very closely when Frazier was wearing a Shiloh uniform for the first time and before Shiloh really started to jell...and I'm not a Shiloh fan.)

4.  Would the 7A-Central teams be willing to accept PA into their conference?  How about Little Rock Christian and Central Arkansas Christian?  Would those teams be willing to join them?

5.  How would a lawsuit by someone on behalf of the private schools be successful when other states are already holding separate playoffs?  What would be the legal grounds for such a suit?

I think private school playoffs in Arkansas would be a farce, due to the small number of private schools and the disparity in their enrollments.  Also, the public schools refusing to play them, either in the regular season or in playoffs, would be an admission that the private schools are fielding better football, and it's just not fair to the private schools.  Still, the playing field between public schools and private schools is not level now, and it's going to tilt even more in the future.

My thought at the moment is that the private schools should be allowed to compete at whatever level they desire, aided by a multiplier rule even larger than now to determine their lowest possible classification.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 10:16:51 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.
Oh what a great idea,"just get better" I'll bet they never thought of that,they are probably setting around in their million dollar weight room,looking at their indoor practice facility,admiring their new turf field while they are eating donuts and drinkin sody pop,thinking if we could get our booster club to kick in a couple hundred thousand each year we could hire us some hot shot coaches we might have a chance!
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: Sportsnutt on May 14, 2009, 10:19:40 am
Quote from: fourpeat on May 12, 2009, 02:40:43 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 12, 2009, 01:58:40 pm
Quote from: fourpeat on May 11, 2009, 09:45:56 am
Harding Academy would probably drag the mouse over to where the radius would be about 5-6 miles and that would put them in 5A.

Yes, because a team that has won one state championship in football in the last 25 years and has broken none of the existing AAA rules really needs to be moved up TWO classifications.
Ok, which would you rather have, a seperate playoff with HA mixed in with PA, Shiloh, CAC and Catholic?  Or, the option of classification?  Your football team radius could be a couple of miles, possibly putting you in 2A or 3A.  It would be the school officials' choice.

Since there is not one public school district in the state of Arkansas with a radius of 2 miles, this doesn't make sense.  Currently, they are using a 25 mile radius for private schools and this may be a little large but 2 miles would be crazy (especially since you are in the middle of a 6,000 student University campus). 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 10:43:01 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 10:16:51 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.
Oh what a great idea,"just get better" I'll bet they never thought of that,they are probably setting around in their million dollar weight room,looking at their indoor practice facility,admiring their new turf field while they are eating donuts and drinkin sody pop,thinking if we could get our booster club to kick in a couple hundred thousand each year we could hire us some hot shot coaches we might have a chance!
So are you now suggesting private schools have superior facilities to public schools? Have you been to any of these schools in question?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 14, 2009, 10:43:19 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 10:16:51 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.
Oh what a great idea,"just get better" I'll bet they never thought of that,they are probably setting around in their million dollar weight room,looking at their indoor practice facility,admiring their new turf field while they are eating donuts and drinkin sody pop,thinking if we could get our booster club to kick in a couple hundred thousand each year we could hire us some hot shot coaches we might have a chance!

seriously, when a team in your conference has a 3rd team that is scoring on your starters you, as a coach, need to examine YOUR program.  Are you running the best D and O for your kids?  Is your off season program getting results?  Is your strength and conditioning program the best you can find?  There are LOTS of ways to improve on a 65-0 butt kickin.

When I say are you running the best O and D, I will use MH for an example.  They realize they are small on size and numbers so they play a style of football that is complementary for THEIR kids.  They slow down the game, run the ball, power football and play stout D.  They realize that if they run the spread they have less of a chance of winning than if they play "Princeton basketball" style football.

Off season and strength and conditioning:  With the advances in sports medicine there is NO reason that you can't put a better product on the field by using science to help your athletes.  The old days of using programs such as "Bigger-Faster-Stronger" are over.  "Bodybuilder" type workouts just don't work on the athletic field and its been proven over and over.  With places like "D 1" thriving in the athletic conditioning business anyone can get a little knowledge on how to "build" a better player.  The days of "everyone run a mile and hit the weights" are long gone.  Well for those that want to win anyway. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 11:30:20 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 10:43:01 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 10:16:51 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.
Oh what a great idea,"just get better" I'll bet they never thought of that,they are probably setting around in their million dollar weight room,looking at their indoor practice facility,admiring their new turf field while they are eating donuts and drinkin sody pop,thinking if we could get our booster club to kick in a couple hundred thousand each year we could hire us some hot shot coaches we might have a chance!
So are you now suggesting private schools have superior facilities to public schools? Have you been to any of these schools in question?
I am suggesting their is more to the problem than one team just out works the other. Saying the answer is simply "get better" is an attempt to distract from the real issue's. But, having all the stuff I mentioned above does help attract student/athelets to your school, public or private. Did you know that the state monitors and regulates how much money a public school spends on athletics? It's watched closer than ever. The DOE wants too know exactly how much money is being spent,and what percentage of your total budget is used for athletics.They give you a percentage that they deem to be "enough" if you go over then you are likly to find your self in trouble in the future.Everything is counted,salaries,utilites,travel,uniforms,equipment,maint.,all the way down to the light bulbs and toilet paper. Are private schools under the same restrictions? Most smaller public schools in AR. have very limited funding from private donations. Most depend on their general revenue to support athletics when it comes to facilities.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 11:44:21 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 11:30:20 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 10:43:01 am
Quote from: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 10:16:51 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 08:11:43 am
Look in the letters section of today's Dem/Gaz and read the letter entitled "Coach being a bad sport" by David A. Gilbert of Lowell.  Mr. Gilbert hits the nail on the head about this situation. 
In his letter he states, "If Shiloh's 3rd and 4th string can score on Berryville's 1st string why not let them?"  He also goes on to point out that the passes thrown in the 4th quarter were screen passes.  Another point was made that the clock was already running continuously due to the mercy rule. 
His point was that Berryville's coach was the one not showing good sportsmanship by not having his team prepared to play Shiloh.  If your 1st team can't stop the other teams 3rd and 4th team then there is a problem in YOUR program.  Quit whining and get better........

+1 to Mr. Gilbert.
Oh what a great idea,"just get better" I'll bet they never thought of that,they are probably setting around in their million dollar weight room,looking at their indoor practice facility,admiring their new turf field while they are eating donuts and drinkin sody pop,thinking if we could get our booster club to kick in a couple hundred thousand each year we could hire us some hot shot coaches we might have a chance!
So are you now suggesting private schools have superior facilities to public schools? Have you been to any of these schools in question?
I am suggesting their is more to the problem than one team just out works the other. Saying the answer is simply "get better" is an attempt to distract from the real issue's. But, having all the stuff I mentioned above does help attract student/athelets to your school, public or private. Did you know that the state monitors and regulates how much money a public school spends on athletics? It's watched closer than ever. The DOE wants too know exactly how much money is being spent,and what percentage of your total budget is used for athletics.They give you a percentage that they deem to be "enough" if you go over then you are likly to find your self in trouble in the future.Everything is counted,salaries,utilites,travel,uniforms,equipment,maint.,all the way down to the light bulbs and toilet paper. Are private schools under the same restrictions? Most smaller public schools in AR. have very limited funding from private donations. Most depend on their general revenue to support athletics when it comes to facilities.
You obviously haven't visited many private school facilities. They are far from ranking as the best in the state. You could tear down LRCA's whole stadium and put it in the back of a long wheelbase pickup truck. PA is cramped tighter than an elephant in a phone booth.

Having turf on a field doesn't translate as superior facilities. If so, then Booneville is about to be an elite program. They are getting turf aren't they?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 14, 2009, 11:53:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berrryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.


Shiloh and to an extent PA are at the top of the food chain when it comes to athletics, they have the kids, they have the facilities to win, and they do.  But, what about the private schools at the other end, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc., do we look at what happens to them when they play of Friday nights? 

Don't get me wrong I am NOT a Shiloh backer, but I think its silly to start a "private school playoff" system.  Move Shiloh up to 5A, leave PA in 5A and let them have at it. 

On the Berryville issue, I'd buy the "small community public school vs large metro private" argument, but Berryville wasn't even competitive with teams from other small towns. 
They were 3-7, two of those losses were to teams from a smaller classification.  If Berryville was a better team, if they were competitive vs the rest of their schedule I'd buy that. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 14, 2009, 12:26:01 pm
I thought Ozark was getting turf. Booneville too?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 14, 2009, 12:34:34 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 11:53:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berrryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.


Shiloh and to an extent PA are at the top of the food chain when it comes to athletics, they have the kids, they have the facilities to win, and they do.  But, what about the private schools at the other end, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc., do we look at what happens to them when they play of Friday nights? 

Don't get me wrong I am NOT a Shiloh backer, but I think its silly to start a "private school playoff" system.  Move Shiloh up to 5A, leave PA in 5A and let them have at it. 

On the Berryville issue, I'd buy the "small community public school vs large metro private" argument, but Berryville wasn't even competitive with teams from other small towns. 
They were 3-7, two of those losses were to teams from a smaller classification.  If Berryville was a better team, if they were competitive vs the rest of their schedule I'd buy that. 

Bug- you're killin me...I have to keep agreeing with you...most people are so off base on this proposal it's getting humorous.

Let's change a whole states organization because berryville says " IT just ain't fair"

They can't beat the public school teams they play either as you have pointed out.

It's like the little fat kid that wants to play shortstop but the coach won't let him... Mommy and Daddy sue everyone to protect little fat boy johnnies right to play shortstop, cause it ain't fair.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on May 14, 2009, 12:38:37 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 11:53:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berrryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.


Shiloh and to an extent PA are at the top of the food chain when it comes to athletics, they have the kids, they have the facilities to win, and they do.  But, what about the private schools at the other end, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc., do we look at what happens to them when they play of Friday nights? 



On the Berryville issue, I'd buy the "small community public school vs large metro private" argument, but Berryville wasn't even competitive with teams from other small towns. 
They were 3-7, two of those losses were to teams from a smaller classification.  If Berryville was a better team, if they were competitive vs the rest of their schedule I'd buy that. 
Don't get me wrong I am NOT a Shiloh backer, but I think its silly to start a "private school playoff" system.  Move Shiloh up to 5A, leave PA in 5A and let them have at it. 
Add AL and CSJ back to 3A and your starting to make some progress.I'll never understand why AAA would change the rules and move those two teams down to play against easier competetion,they were both very competetive in 3A.
That makes as much sense as moving PA down after they win the state title in 5A? Seperation would not be needed or wanted if these situation were not allowed to happen.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 14, 2009, 01:35:33 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 14, 2009, 12:26:01 pm
I thought Ozark was getting turf. Booneville too?
It's Ozark.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: rammer on May 14, 2009, 02:17:03 pm
Don't get me wrong I am NOT a Shiloh backer, but I think its silly to start a "private school playoff" system.  Move Shiloh up to 5A, leave PA in 5A and let them have at it. 
Add AL and CSJ back to 3A and your starting to make some progress.I'll never understand why AAA would change the rules and move those two teams down to play against easier competetion,they were both very competetive in 3A.
That makes as much sense as moving PA down after they win the state title in 5A? Seperation would not be needed or wanted if these situation were not allowed to happen.

QPWFB,

I finally agree with you on something. I think it would be great to move the private schools up 2 classifications, thus putting CSJ and AL back in the 3A. If you will look at the numbers I believe AL is the smallest 2A school according to the newest listing by the AAA. Of course, these 2 schools do not play football and I believe it would hurt the football schools because it takes more players. Anyway, I wish they had kept the 1.75 multiplier.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 14, 2009, 04:13:37 pm
Word floating around is that Berryville will have their own playoff system next season, where they will give out Winner and Great Game medals.



(http://www.funpartysupplies.co.uk/images/winners%20medals.jpg)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 14, 2009, 04:19:40 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 14, 2009, 04:13:37 pm
Word floating around is that Berryville will have their own playoff system next season, where they will give out Winner and Great Game medals.



(http://www.funpartysupplies.co.uk/images/winners%20medals.jpg)

LMAOROTF!  ................
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 14, 2009, 04:21:09 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 14, 2009, 04:13:37 pm
Word floating around is that Berryville will have their own playoff system next season, where they will give out Winner and Great Game medals.



(http://www.funpartysupplies.co.uk/images/winners%20medals.jpg)

Perfect-  I thought you were going to say they will be playing with themselves next year!  ;D
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 14, 2009, 04:52:23 pm
Is THAT what they were getting ready for on the practice field earlier?!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 14, 2009, 10:40:18 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berrryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.

Yeah, it only took Nashville to 3 out of the last 4 state titles.

Nashville - population 4900
Howard Co. - population 14,300

So much for the population argument.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 14, 2009, 10:52:44 pm
I also have a good proposal......
REMEMBER THE BEAVERS!!!!!!

2007 Class 3A State Championship:
Glen Rose 35 Shiloh Christian 34 (OT)

Here's something else that may be overlooked....
Since 1996, Shiloh only has 1 more Championship than Nashville. They consist of 3 in 2A, 1 in 3A, and now 1 in 4A. OOOOHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! :o
Quit belly aching about them coming up from 3A and mercy ruling everyone they played, with the exception of Dollarway.  
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: Pick_DA_EAGLES on May 14, 2009, 11:27:18 pm
 heres what should happin: if you mercy rule most of your opp. in a season then next season you move upone class until you reach the top class 7a, when you have a losen season you move down a class.


yes i know this is total B.S. but so is this whole puplic vs. private thing either man up or shut-up. if a teams 3rd string is scorin  at will you have more probs. than just private-public.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: T-Wacker on May 15, 2009, 07:33:34 am
Why not just restrict the private school district size to the same size as the public school in the town it exists? That would not allow students form neighboring towns to be eligible, thereby stopping some of the problems.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: 3cats on May 15, 2009, 09:07:45 am
Quote from: Uncle Dan on May 12, 2009, 03:39:02 pm
2.0 has a point.  I had the chance to attend nearly all of the state championship games over the last 10 years.  The attendance over the last couple of years has been impressive even for the lower classes. 
in fact, i would argue that HS football may well be experiencing its height in popularity.  Do we really want to mess with something that is so intriguing? 
Great point.....Who is bringing the most people to the games???
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: 3cats on May 15, 2009, 09:09:59 am
Quote from: Lions84 on May 08, 2009, 01:03:02 pm
Yes because many parents will drive so their child can play for Shiloh ,PA, CAC, HA.   
Not only to play.....but attend and educate... ;D
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 15, 2009, 11:03:27 am
Quote from: pick_DA_EAGLES on May 14, 2009, 11:27:18 pm
yes i know this is total B.S. but so is this whole puplic vs. private thing either man up or shut-up. if a teams 3rd string is scorin  at will you have more probs. than just private-public.

+1
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 15, 2009, 11:14:56 am
 :'(
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 15, 2009, 11:16:30 am
Here's a stat for those that think Shiloh is unevenly too talented for the 4A.....

Since 1996, Shiloh has ONLY 1 more state title than Nashville. They consisted of 3 in 2A, 1 in 3A, and now 1 in 4A. In 2007, they lost in the 3A finals to GLEN ROSE 35-34 (OT). The following year, they mercy ruled EVERYONE in 4A, except for Dollarway. Is the 4A that close to the 3A? Would Glen Rose  ;D be able to come in and beat most in the 4A unmercifully? If that's the case, I predict a Bauxite vs. Shiloh final this year.

Like I've said before, either man up or quit playing football. ::)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 15, 2009, 12:07:20 pm
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 15, 2009, 11:16:30 am
Like I've said before, either man up or quit playing football. ::)[/color]
Again, a stupid reply to the fact at hand.  Nashville's success has nothing to do with the situation at Shiloh.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 15, 2009, 02:50:12 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 12:07:20 pm
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 15, 2009, 11:16:30 am
Like I've said before, either man up or quit playing football. ::)[/color]
Again, a stupid reply to the fact at hand.  Nashville's success has nothing to do with the situation at Shiloh.

Nothing, as in zero?

You can't set one public school at a different level than others. It's the same philosophy that is being applied to Shiloh in trying to oust them.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 15, 2009, 02:58:38 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
A said B said C said.

I replied to Outlaw's absurd 'man up' reply.  Your 3rd and 4th party interlopers can spit about whatever you want.  But in regards to what I was replying to in the first place and not pulled out of context, I stand by it.  Again.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on May 15, 2009, 03:16:48 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:58:38 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
A said B said C said.

I replied to Outlaw's absurd 'man up' reply.  Your 3rd and 4th party interlopers can spit about whatever you want.  But in regards to what I was replying to in the first place and not pulled out of context, I stand by it.  Again.

QF- I've tried to follow this subject matter on several threads..  and everytime it strays into la-la land....sometimes it's my own stupid fault  ...good luck trying to make a point or give an opinion without it being twisted and turned around 10 times.. 

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:20:47 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
Exactly. You can't cry foul, claim the situation applies simply to private schools when there are public schools operating in the exact same manner, and then pretend that we now have equality.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 15, 2009, 04:25:33 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:20:47 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
Exactly. You can't cry foul, claim the situation applies simply to private schools when there are public schools operating in the exact same manner, and then pretend that we now have equality.

S-l-o-w-e-r this time.  His rant of "man up and quit playing" in regards to his comment about Nashville as it pertains to Shiloh doesn't relate.  Shiloh's situation stands alone.

What you're referencing is something totally different.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:30:17 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 04:25:33 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:20:47 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
Exactly. You can't cry foul, claim the situation applies simply to private schools when there are public schools operating in the exact same manner, and then pretend that we now have equality.

S-l-o-w-e-r this time.  His rant of "man up and quit playing" in regards to his comment about Nashville as it pertains to Shiloh doesn't relate.  Shiloh's situation stands alone.

What you're referencing is something totally different.


Berryville should man up. If your 1st team can not stop a 4th string from scoring, the problem is not with the school that scored. Being inept at something gives you no excuse to whine.

Different but totally true.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 15, 2009, 04:37:19 pm
For the umpteenth time,  it's not just about Berryville and you know it.  They were only 1 of 18 in NWA that voted for it and most of those that voted against it were the larger schools.

Berryville sucked and they know it.  Yet any argument about the extreme difference does illustrate how they are competitively imblanced for whatever reason.

I'll tell you what's tiresome.  It's the fact Berryville being terrible being used as a reason to discredit them.  What did everyone want?  A team that barely lost to Shiloh making the proposal?  If that was the case all you would have heard was more of the same type of sour grapes as if they were blaming a 'closer loss' on the differences.

As the initiator, they gave their own viewpoints.  17 others had their own views and still thought the proposal had merit for their own situation.

Other local schools are not voting for the proposal just because they feel sorry for Berryville.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 15, 2009, 06:22:20 pm
Well the AAA could move Berryville down to 3A?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm
The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).

So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 15, 2009, 08:05:54 pm
Quote from: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm
The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).

So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work. 
This, folks, is an example of quality over quantity with respect to posts. Extremely well put.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 15, 2009, 08:09:26 pm
Yeah, you beat me to it.  That's why whatever the decision is now should be more long term.  The combo of 7 classes and new numbers every two years is monster.  The equations are too variable and just makes the entire thing turbulant on a year to year basis.  Once you have generated a flip floppy system, it's easier to create friction.

The 7 divisions are the intial problem.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Temprees on May 15, 2009, 09:21:05 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 14, 2009, 12:34:34 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 11:53:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berrryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.


Shiloh and to an extent PA are at the top of the food chain when it comes to athletics, they have the kids, they have the facilities to win, and they do.  But, what about the private schools at the other end, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc., do we look at what happens to them when they play of Friday nights? 

Don't get me wrong I am NOT a Shiloh backer, but I think its silly to start a "private school playoff" system.  Move Shiloh up to 5A, leave PA in 5A and let them have at it. 

On the Berryville issue, I'd buy the "small community public school vs large metro private" argument, but Berryville wasn't even competitive with teams from other small towns. 
They were 3-7, two of those losses were to teams from a smaller classification.  If Berryville was a better team, if they were competitive vs the rest of their schedule I'd buy that. 

Bug- you're killin me...I have to keep agreeing with you...most people are so off base on this proposal it's getting humorous.

Let's change a whole states organization because berryville says " IT just ain't fair"

They can't beat the public school teams they play either as you have pointed out.

It's like the little fat kid that wants to play shortstop but the coach won't let him... Mommy and Daddy sue everyone to protect little fat boy johnnies right to play shortstop, cause it ain't fair.


Its more than Berryville.  The vote was 18-6 wasn't it.  And you just wait until you see the overall vote in August. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 15, 2009, 09:31:18 pm
I don't know, I think the schools on the other side of the state don't really care. They just man up and play.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 15, 2009, 09:36:50 pm
I'd like to give a shout out to the young men on the Berryville Bobcat football team for ignoring all of the crap being talked about them on these threads. Good luck in your 09 season, boys. Take it to 'em.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 15, 2009, 10:01:07 pm
I have a son at a private school in the river valley. I'm always wondering how the private powerhouse schools do it. I mean recruit. Our school pushes for high academics. When you do that there is not a lot of kids busting down the door to play sports. If you do have one transfer in there is a reason why they left and they very seldom work out. I'm saying this, most of our kids that produce in sports come up threw our system. If you think it is not easy competing against the SC and PA. You should see what we have to go threw. We pull up to a school to play Football in a bus that can barely run. We come out on to the field and it doesn't matter what colors you wear. The other team starts pounding on you like your a SC or a Pa and dances on your broken bones. But you know what, most of the our kids don't complain. And sometimes they get a little respect from some of the more mature kids they play against. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: hoopsin53 on May 16, 2009, 08:40:18 am
Quote from: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm<br />The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).<br /><br />So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work.  <br />

this is also why our 6-a and 7-a playoffs are a joke with almost everyone getting in
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 16, 2009, 08:57:52 am
Quote from: Temprees on May 15, 2009, 09:21:05 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 14, 2009, 12:34:34 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 14, 2009, 11:53:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berrryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:


Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429


Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Sprindale-Rogers MSA:  311,121


Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.


Shiloh and to an extent PA are at the top of the food chain when it comes to athletics, they have the kids, they have the facilities to win, and they do.  But, what about the private schools at the other end, Episcopal, Lutheran, etc., do we look at what happens to them when they play of Friday nights? 

Don't get me wrong I am NOT a Shiloh backer, but I think its silly to start a "private school playoff" system.  Move Shiloh up to 5A, leave PA in 5A and let them have at it. 

On the Berryville issue, I'd buy the "small community public school vs large metro private" argument, but Berryville wasn't even competitive with teams from other small towns. 
They were 3-7, two of those losses were to teams from a smaller classification.  If Berryville was a better team, if they were competitive vs the rest of their schedule I'd buy that. 

Bug- you're killin me...I have to keep agreeing with you...most people are so off base on this proposal it's getting humorous.

Let's change a whole states organization because berryville says " IT just ain't fair"

They can't beat the public school teams they play either as you have pointed out.

It's like the little fat kid that wants to play shortstop but the coach won't let him... Mommy and Daddy sue everyone to protect little fat boy johnnies right to play shortstop, cause it ain't fair.


Its more than Berryville.  The vote was 18-6 wasn't it.  And you just wait until you see the overall vote in August. 

While I would think it would pass. The number aren't as overwhelming as  you see to thing.

24 Schools voted.  16 votes were needed to pass it.  The rest of the state has to care as much as that district.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 16, 2009, 09:10:43 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 16, 2009, 08:57:52 am

While I would think it would pass. The number aren't as overwhelming as  you see to thing.

24 Schools voted.  16 votes were needed to pass it.  The rest of the state has to care as much as that district.
'See to thing'?  I know, you meant "seem to think".  ;)

What that vote does show is withing the confines of where Shiloh is located, the issue has developed into that many schools believing something needs to change.  That's why they have district level proposals.

Personally, I think it gets a majority statewide but not the 2/3 required to implement a change.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Football_Han_D_Cap on May 16, 2009, 09:55:34 am
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 15, 2009, 11:16:30 am
Here's a stat for those that think Shiloh is unevenly too talented for the 4A.....

Since 1996, Shiloh has ONLY 1 more state title than Nashville. They consisted of 3 in 2A, 1 in 3A, and now 1 in 4A. In 2007, they lost in the 3A finals to GLEN ROSE 35-34 (OT). The following year, they mercy ruled EVERYONE in 4A, except for Dollarway. Is the 4A that close to the 3A? Would Glen Rose  ;D be able to come in and beat most in the 4A unmercifully? If that's the case, I predict a Bauxite vs. Shiloh final this year.

Like I've said before, either man up or quit playing football. ::)

Almost every championship team (in football and basketball) has some sort of story about how players tranferred in or some kind of comparable situation. For example, a football State Championship MVP who lived with an assistant coach for a couple of years and then with another player his senior year so he could attend school there. In my opinion, this not completely different than situations that have been debated in this thread. The 2008 Class 1A Boy's Basketball State Championship Game MVP and a teammate showed up on a different team for their senior year and participated in the 2009 Class 2A Boy's Basketball State Championship Game. Not to suggest that all of a sudden the educational opportunities were vastly improved at a school across the county, but it looks as though there were some other considerations involved in the decision to change schools. ::)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 16, 2009, 10:27:35 am
Last seasons starting RB from Warren will be transferring (get this) to Bentonville. 

Will he have to sit out a year?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 16, 2009, 10:39:28 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 16, 2009, 10:27:35 am
Last seasons starting RB from Warren will be transferring (get this) to Bentonville. 

Will he have to sit out a year?
Nope. Not if he moves before July, has an established residence in Bentonville district, and both AD's sign off that the move was not for athletic purposes.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 16, 2009, 10:45:24 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 16, 2009, 10:39:28 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 16, 2009, 10:27:35 am
Last seasons starting RB from Warren will be transferring (get this) to Bentonville. 

Will he have to sit out a year?
Nope. Not if he moves before July, has an established residence in Bentonville district, and both AD's sign off that the move was not for athletic purposes.

Bentonville "recruiting"?    hmmmm............... 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 16, 2009, 11:09:57 am
Quote from: bleudog on May 14, 2009, 11:13:59 am
I agree with the importance of conditioning and preparation.  But come on guys, the cliche "level playing field" is sports related and small community public schools playing metro area private schools are the best example of not being on that level field.

Just using Berryville and Shiloh as examples, and I'm guessing Berryville has a larger student population, look at the community sizes from which they draw those students:



Berryville:  5,193
Carroll County:  27,429



Springdale:  66,881
Washington County:  194,292
Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers MSA:  311,121



Conditioning and preparation should prevail when the playing field is level, but it will only take one so far when the battle is uphill.

Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 14, 2009, 10:40:18 pmYeah, it only took Nashville to 3 out of the last 4 state titles.

Nashville - population 4900
Howard Co. - population 14,300

So much for the population argument.

Nashville is certainly an example of a mid-size (for Arkansas) public school that has demonstrated a successful athletic program.  Congratulations to the Scrappers for their success.   

There are obviously many Scrapper fans on FF who could elaborate on that success.  I have occasionally made the trip to Nashville for football jamborees and gone through there on the way to Dierks for baseball games.   Did have some family there but that was many years ago.  That is the extent of my familiarity with Nashville. 

That being said, I don't think there is a private school in Nashville's conference, much less a private school in Nashville's conference that draws students from a MSA exceeding 300,000 people.  If there were, Nashville possibly might not have had as much success as they have experienced over the last few years.

I'm a little more familiar with 2A football in Union County and have specifically followed Junction City for the last few years or so.  I think JC would also fall under the category of small public schools that have had some success against both public and private school opponents.  The JC-Shiloh game of '99 was a classic and Malazhn (spl?) mentioned it in his book.  I believe Harding Academy's last game as a 2A team was a loss to the Dragon's in the quarter finals of the '05 playoffs in Searcy.

The 2A-8 (formerly the 2A-7 East) currently contains no private high schools.  Union County has 6 high schools that are charged with educating the children of its approximately 50,000 population.  Other than El Dorado, most schools are 2A and have districts of a 8-10 mile radius or less. 

JC losing a conference title to Smackover or Bearden (which has happened within the last 5 years) is disappointing but were years where those teams had a more talented group of athletes. 

If there were an established private school in El Dorado, a 25 mile district radius would allow it to draw student/athletes from all 6 public school districts in Union County.  That hypothetical school, if it chose to do so, could have a distinct advantage regardless of its student size.  Whether it competed as a 2A school or not, such a private school directly drawing athletes from Junction and other Union County schools, would certainly have an impact on all the public schools in the conference (including the non-Union County schools such as Bearden, Hampton, Hermitage, Dermott etc.) succeeding in the conference and at the state level.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 16, 2009, 01:27:18 pm
Nashville would probably be in trouble if a private school opened.  Kids that currently are recruited to play at Nashville would have other choices.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 16, 2009, 01:30:55 pm
I actually DID watch the film of Berryville v Shiloh.

Shiloh wasn't pure, but all in all, they didn't do too much over the top.

The big problem was Berryville.

While a team "ought" to be able to call off the dogs, they also have a responibility to train, practice and play hard.  Shiloh did that.

The problems is that Berryville wasn't a competitive match.

ANY team that mercy rules 50% of its opponents ought to be moved up.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Ty on May 16, 2009, 04:28:50 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:30:38 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 11, 2009, 01:14:34 pm
Quote from: Made on May 11, 2009, 01:06:17 pm
The humorous part of this is that their ignorance of Arkansas is what brings about these "stereotypes" of people who live in Arkansas.

Much like the ignorance about private schools is what brings about the sterotypes of their students, parents, coaches and administrators.
I understand that Shiloh this year had 192 incredible students, they worked hard, they excelled in the classroom, and put everything they had into their school.
Are you serious? You're assessment is far from the actual truth.

Shiloh is the school that kids attend when their parents are fed up with dealing with them and they have had problems at Fayetteville or Har-Ber.

You can stand in the corner and make broad generalizations, hiding behind decent rhetoric. That doesn't change the fact that you know absolutely nothing about the actual student body make up of the Shiloh.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 16, 2009, 04:35:57 pm
Everyone in AR is an ignorant, shoeless redneck. BUT. At least we aren't forcing our patients in mental homes to fight each other while we record it on our cell phones...and then lose said phone. Texas is WAY better than Arkansas.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: HA_Fan on May 16, 2009, 09:32:42 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 16, 2009, 04:28:50 pm
Shiloh is the school that kids attend when their parents are fed up with dealing with them and they have had problems at Fayetteville or Har-Ber.

You can stand in the corner and make broad generalizations

Take a look in the mirror, my friend.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 16, 2009, 09:35:01 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 16, 2009, 11:09:57 am

Nashville is certainly an example of a mid-size (for Arkansas) public school that has demonstrated a successful athletic program.  Congratulations to the Scrappers for their success.   

There are obviously many Scrapper fans on FF who could elaborate on that success.  I have occasionally made the trip to Nashville for football jamborees and gone through there on the way to Dierks for baseball games.   Did have some family there but that was many years ago.  That is the extent of my familiarity with Nashville.



Nashville had CAC and Arkansas Baptist in their conference up until last season. CAC beat them out of the playoffs on their way to the 2004 Championship, then joined the 7 4A the next year. That happens to be the first year in Nashville's Championship streak.


Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:58:38 pm<br />
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm<br />
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm<br />The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.<br />
<br /><br />I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.<br />
<br />A said B said C said.<br /><br />I replied to Outlaw's absurd 'man up' reply.  Your 3rd and 4th party interlopers can spit about whatever you want.  But in regards to what I was <b>replying to in the first place</b> and not pulled out of context, I stand by it.  Again.<br />

QF,
Apparently, you some difficulty in reading comp. I AM referring to certain public schools having the same, if not more success than private schools. In the last 5 years among the "Private Powers", Shiloh has 2 titles, CAC has 1, PA has 1, LR Catholic has 0, LR Christian has 0, Episcopal Collegiate has 0, Arkansas Baptist has 0, and Harding Academy has 0. In that same time, Nashville has 3, Greenwood has 3, Arkansas High (Texarkana) has 2, Junction City has 2, etc. Do you see a pattern? Out of 8 private schools I listed, there are 4 titles, while out of the 4 Public schools I listed there are 10. COME ON!!!  
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HA_Fan on May 16, 2009, 09:41:46 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 15, 2009, 08:05:54 pm
Quote from: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm
The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).

So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work. 
This, folks, is an example of quality over quantity with respect to posts. Extremely well put.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Baitshop on May 16, 2009, 11:29:01 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:30:17 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 04:25:33 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:20:47 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
Exactly. You can't cry foul, claim the situation applies simply to private schools when there are public schools operating in the exact same manner, and then pretend that we now have equality.

S-l-o-w-e-r this time.  His rant of "man up and quit playing" in regards to his comment about Nashville as it pertains to Shiloh doesn't relate.  Shiloh's situation stands alone.

What you're referencing is something totally different.


Berryville should man up. If your 1st team can not stop a 4th string from scoring, the problem is not with the school that scored.  Being inept at something gives you no excuse to whine.

Different but totally true.

......OR.......maybe the reason that Berryville's 1st team can't stop Shiloh's 4th string is because.......oh, I don't know.......Shiloh's talent pool comes from a 25 mile radius that includes 200,000+ people, instead of a town of 9753.......... :-\ :-\ ::) ::)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: outlaw39 on May 17, 2009, 01:08:49 am
Quote from: baitshop on May 16, 2009, 11:29:01 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:30:17 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 04:25:33 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 15, 2009, 04:20:47 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 15, 2009, 02:54:42 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 15, 2009, 02:52:46 pm
The heck I can't.  Nashville's success has no direct tie to Shiloh's situation.

I think the point he's making is that there are other programs in the state that are more successful than private schools, yet that does not drive anyone to make proposals intended to even the playing field.
Exactly. You can't cry foul, claim the situation applies simply to private schools when there are public schools operating in the exact same manner, and then pretend that we now have equality.

S-l-o-w-e-r this time.  His rant of "man up and quit playing" in regards to his comment about Nashville as it pertains to Shiloh doesn't relate.  Shiloh's situation stands alone.

What you're referencing is something totally different.


Berryville should man up. If your 1st team can not stop a 4th string from scoring, the problem is not with the school that scored.  Being inept at something gives you no excuse to whine.

Different but totally true.

......OR.......maybe the reason that Berryville's 1st team can't stop Shiloh's 4th string is because.......oh, I don't know.......Shiloh's talent pool comes from a 25 mile radius that includes 200,000+ people, instead of a town of 9753.......... :-\ :-\ ::) ::)


Or maybe the reason Berryville's 1st can't stop Shiloh's 4th is because they have had 3 winning seasons since 2000. Or maybe it's due to the fact they went 1-3 vs. mediocre 3A teams last season. Or could the fact their last outright conference title was in 1984? How about their 6-12 playoff record?
As I've said before.....
If some schools put in the effort to having a good program, success, etc. that they put into getting rid of private schools because their 4th string is better than their starters, Arkansas High School football would be better off. It takes something called WORK. It isn't given. I'm not talking about players either. They're a small part. I'm talking about the town, administration, coaching staff. Look at the example I've been trying to give, Glen Rose. Up until 2005, they only had 1 winning season in recent memory. Since then, they hired a different coaching staff, made some changes, AND BEAT SHILOH IN THE 2007 3A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME!!
I know public schools only get what they're given. Is it Shiloh's fault that kids moving into the Springdale area want to play for them instead of Siloam Springs, Decatur, Van Buren, etc? Of course it is! Who wants to play football for a school with a good team?  ::)

Man up. Quit whining. If your school only has 3 winning seasons in a 10 year span, private schools aren't your only problem.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 17, 2009, 08:49:42 am
Quote from: outlaw39 on May 17, 2009, 01:08:49 am
Man up. Quit whining. If your school only has 3 winning seasons in a 10 year span, private schools aren't your only problem. [/color]

Are you under some impression that Berryville thinks they are good or would become good by not playing Shiloh?

That impression would be false.

I'll repeat this again.  Say Shiloh won the game on a last second TD and Berryville still filed the complaint.  What would these type opinions be now?

My guess is they'd say they are not really that far apart and it was sour grapes because they gave up that last touchdown.  You can bank that'd be the line of thought.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 17, 2009, 09:57:47 am
Berryville got embarrassed by Shiloh pure and simple, they can't beat them on the field so they are trying to beat them somewhere else.  If this was a better team, one that is competitive, one that only lost by a couple points people might actually pay attention.  Since its a poor team, from a poor program everyone thinks its sour grapes.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Ty on May 17, 2009, 10:11:34 am
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 16, 2009, 09:32:42 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 16, 2009, 04:28:50 pm
Shiloh is the school that kids attend when their parents are fed up with dealing with them and they have had problems at Fayetteville or Har-Ber.

You can stand in the corner and make broad generalizations

Take a look in the mirror, my friend.
Or, I can have multiple friends at Shiloh and know more about the student body and their personal lives than anyone on this board.

Nice try though.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 17, 2009, 10:19:08 am
Wrong again.

If they'd lost by one and complained, it'd look worse to many. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 17, 2009, 10:23:12 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 17, 2009, 09:57:47 am
Berryville got embarrassed by Shiloh pure and simple, they can't beat them on the field so they are trying to beat them somewhere else.  If this was a better team, one that is competitive, one that only lost by a couple points people might actually pay attention.  Since its a poor team, from a poor program everyone thinks its sour grapes.
It's the kid that gets upset, takes his ball home, and whines to his parents about the kids at the park being unfair.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 17, 2009, 11:46:56 am
Quote from: QF© on May 17, 2009, 10:19:08 am
Wrong again.

If they'd lost by one and complained, it'd look worse to many. 


QF: I don't agree with the beating or the lack of sportsmanship that Shiloh has showed over time.  But, come on, Berryville lost 7 games, two of which were to 3A opponents.  They can moron all they want about Shiloh running it up on them, but come on, they just weren't very good either. 

Leave the privates alone
Move Shiloh up to 5A, see if Shiloh whines when (??)5A team hangs 50+ on them.  Or better yet, let Shiloh schedule Bentonville, S-dale (1 or 2) or F-ville and see what happens.  Heck Evangel kicked their butts last season didn't they?
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 17, 2009, 11:48:39 am
Quote from: Ty on May 17, 2009, 10:11:34 am
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 16, 2009, 09:32:42 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 16, 2009, 04:28:50 pm
Shiloh is the school that kids attend when their parents are fed up with dealing with them and they have had problems at Fayetteville or Har-Ber.

You can stand in the corner and make broad generalizations

Take a look in the mirror, my friend.
Or, I can have multiple friends at Shiloh and know more about the student body and their personal lives than anyone on this board.

Nice try though.

Ty: since you have friends associated with Shiloh, tell the good folks in the rest of the state why EVERYONE in NWA seems to hate Shiloh.  I just don't see the issue.........
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 17, 2009, 12:07:03 pm
I HIGHLY doubt that you know more about Shiloh than anyone else on the board, son.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 17, 2009, 12:12:07 pm
Again.  Berryville's w/l record is not relevant to the discussion.  They are just 1 of 18 teams in that area that thought what was going on is wrong.

At no point has Berryville claimed they were a powerhouse or that they expected to be a powerhouse.  How good they are really matters little to the reason for the action.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 17, 2009, 12:13:53 pm
It's not the players in Berryville, so you can cut that bs right now. Those boys work hard year round for that football team. The talent pool is a bit shallow at the moment, but don't you dare discredit those boys who worked so hard to TRY to be competitive.        Also: once again, this is not Berryville's retaliation. It is NWA's small schools' retaliation.      Throw Berryville's coaching staff under the bus bc someone in that town stood up for ALL the small schools in NWA. Whatever.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 17, 2009, 01:11:06 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 12:13:53 pm
It's not the players in Berryville, so you can cut that bs right now. Those boys work hard year round for that football team. The talent pool is a bit shallow at the moment, but don't you dare discredit those boys who worked so hard to TRY to be competitive.        Also: once again, this is not Berryville's retaliation. It is NWA's small schools' retaliation.      Throw Berryville's coaching staff under the bus bc someone in that town stood up for ALL the small schools in NWA. Whatever.


maybe they are working hard the wrong way.  going into the gym and doing dumb bell curls all day (or something like that) does no good. 

I have heard that B-ville has a pretty decent basketball program.  If that is true they must have some athletes in the school
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: GLion Alum on May 17, 2009, 01:59:40 pm
The figures being thrown around for the population of the Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers MSA (Benton, Madison and Washington counties, AR, and McDonald County, MO) seemed a little low to me, so I checked the official census site and found the following info:  2000 population--347,045.  2007 estimated population--438,000.  And the pool of football talent keeps getting bigger.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 04:09:40 pm
But under Arkansas Law, "Student choice" would allow everyone of the 438,000 (which is population not students) could elect to go to Berryville as long as there was room
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: holdup on May 17, 2009, 05:59:45 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 16, 2009, 09:41:46 pm<br />
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 15, 2009, 08:05:54 pm<br />
Quote from: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm<br />The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).<br /><br />So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work.  <br />
This, folks, is an example of quality over quantity with respect to posts. Extremely well put. <br />
<br /><br />Ditto.<br />

P.S.  The public charter schools have almost the same advantages that private schools have with boundaries, drawing from large areas, etc.  I wonder if people will wait for them to get REALLY good before they are excluded. 
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Ty on May 17, 2009, 06:10:24 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 12:07:03 pm
I HIGHLY doubt that you know more about Shiloh than anyone else on the board, son.
Really? I know every single kid on the football team, personally, not to mention every girl on the cheer squad.

Notice I said their student body and not Shiloh itself.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 06:14:41 pm
Quote from: holdup on May 17, 2009, 05:59:45 pm
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 16, 2009, 09:41:46 pm<br />
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 15, 2009, 08:05:54 pm<br />
Quote from: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm<br />The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).<br /><br />So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work.  <br />
This, folks, is an example of quality over quantity with respect to posts. Extremely well put. <br />
<br /><br />Ditto.<br />

P.S.  The public charter schools have almost the same advantages that private schools have with boundaries, drawing from large areas, etc.  I wonder if people will wait for them to get REALLY good before they are excluded. 
Bingo. I've made that argument about LR Mills for years.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: holdup on May 17, 2009, 06:19:12 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 06:14:41 pm<br />
Quote from: holdup on May 17, 2009, 05:59:45 pm<br />
Quote from: HA_Fan 2.0™ on May 16, 2009, 09:41:46 pm<br />
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 15, 2009, 08:05:54 pm<br />
Quote from: holdup on May 15, 2009, 08:00:47 pm<br />The schools have no real patience.  They make a proposal, vote on it, pass it and then never give it a chance to take effect.  Siloam is the reason we split to 6A and 7A since they were the smallest school in the biggest classification.  There were some of the large northwest arkansas schools splitting, which would have bumped them down a class, and they never gave the next cycle a chance before we voted on the split.  Well, they have been 5a ever since!  If they would have had patience, it would have been okay like it was.  Then the 1.75 multiplier was probably the best solution.  An Ark Baptist parent sues because of the potential danger.  Problem was, AB had the worst group of athletes coming through high school in 30 years.  They had 140 pound linemen.  They were still pretty competitive.  Their talent cycle has come back around and they would be fine in 4a now, but no patience.  Last year, the new proposals including nobody transferring in high school without sitting out a year happened.  During the first year of that, people jump the gun again with another proposal.  Just let something that the schools all agreed to try have time to take effect before you go voting to do something again!  It really is silly.  Last year's proposals were good.  They will work.  I think the multiplier should come back as well.  The players at Shiloh that have been grandfathered in under the old transfer rules will graduate, and then there will be no more transfers in high school, and then there will be less to argue about.  People will actually have to be moving school districts to a new home to actually be eligible.  No more of this two signatures lets you play.  (Which by the way if the administrators were doing their jobs, those transfer forms could have worked as well).<br /><br />So.  I think once you vote to pass a proposal to even the playing field, there shouldn't be anymore proposals listened to for 4 years to see if the new rules actually work.  <br />
This, folks, is an example of quality over quantity with respect to posts. Extremely well put. <br />
<br /><br />Ditto.<br />
<br /><br />P.S.  The public charter schools have almost the same advantages that private schools have with boundaries, drawing from large areas, etc.  I wonder if people will wait for them to get REALLY good before they are excluded.  <br />
Bingo. I've made that argument about LR Mills for years. <br />

Lisa Academy and Academics Plus are privately run public schools in the Little Rock area.  They are private schools without tuition.  I cannot see what would exclude them from this argument other than they are not great yet (or at least they don't have football yet).
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 17, 2009, 06:21:50 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 17, 2009, 01:11:06 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 12:13:53 pm
It's not the players in Berryville, so you can cut that bs right now. Those boys work hard year round for that football team. The talent pool is a bit shallow at the moment, but don't you dare discredit those boys who worked so hard to TRY to be competitive.        Also: once again, this is not Berryville's retaliation. It is NWA's small schools' retaliation.      Throw Berryville's coaching staff under the bus bc someone in that town stood up for ALL the small schools in NWA. Whatever.


maybe they are working hard the wrong way.  going into the gym and doing dumb bell curls all day (or something like that) does no good. 

I have heard that B-ville has a pretty decent basketball program.  If that is true they must have some athletes in the school
Berryville's best athletes are on the soccer field. That's their downfall.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
I'm not sure but doesn't the school the student is wanting to leave have to be at a certain academic level for the student to leave? I don't think they would leave a school that has a higher academic standard for one that is lower.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
I'm not sure but doesn't the school the student is wanting to leave have to be at a certain academic level for the student to leave? I don't think they would leave a school that has a higher academic standard for one that is lower.
If not, a clause should be inserted stating a student must transfer to a school with better testing scores, etc. That would cut down on some athletic transfers right away.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:13:32 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
I'm not sure but doesn't the school the student is wanting to leave have to be at a certain academic level for the student to leave? I don't think they would leave a school that has a higher academic standard for one that is lower.
If not, a clause should be inserted stating a student must transfer to a school with better testing scores, etc. That would cut down on some athletic transfers right away.
I'm not so sure that that isn't already in place. Example, just an example not real: A kid from Fayetteville decides he wants to transfer to Springdale. Fayettevilles academic standing based on testing is higher than Springdale's. His request is rejected.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:16:06 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:13:32 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
I'm not sure but doesn't the school the student is wanting to leave have to be at a certain academic level for the student to leave? I don't think they would leave a school that has a higher academic standard for one that is lower.
If not, a clause should be inserted stating a student must transfer to a school with better testing scores, etc. That would cut down on some athletic transfers right away.
I'm not so sure that that isn't already in place. Example, just an example not real: A kid from Fayetteville decides he wants to transfer to Springdale. Fayettevilles academic standing based on testing is higher than Springdale's. His request is rejected.
Although the main way to get around that is by claiming one school offers better offerings in a certain program, such as Springdale's far superior JAG and agri. offerings. I think.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:17:36 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:16:06 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:13:32 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
I'm not sure but doesn't the school the student is wanting to leave have to be at a certain academic level for the student to leave? I don't think they would leave a school that has a higher academic standard for one that is lower.
If not, a clause should be inserted stating a student must transfer to a school with better testing scores, etc. That would cut down on some athletic transfers right away.
I'm not so sure that that isn't already in place. Example, just an example not real: A kid from Fayetteville decides he wants to transfer to Springdale. Fayettevilles academic standing based on testing is higher than Springdale's. His request is rejected.
Although the main way to get around that is by claiming one school offers better offerings in a certain program, such as Springdale's far superior JAG and agri. offerings. I think.
You're probably right. Anything the government does is filled with loopholes.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: stina_ar on May 17, 2009, 07:42:25 pm
Impressive. I am sure you're right. Noone else on FF deals with the Shiloh student body. EVER. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 10:31:37 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 17, 2009, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 17, 2009, 07:07:05 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 17, 2009, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 04:53:02 pm
john, your posts make me want to punch a baby.       Things definitely need to change in BV. Bishop is great, I am not saying he needs to go. Maybe just a new approach... IDK.

I didn't write the school choice law.  I just read enough of it the know it is a loophole the size of a truck that allows any kid to say, "Even though I live in xxx district, I think my education would be better if i went to ZZZ"

Unless the schools "know" you are doing it for athletics, you are golden.
I'm not sure but doesn't the school the student is wanting to leave have to be at a certain academic level for the student to leave? I don't think they would leave a school that has a higher academic standard for one that is lower.
If not, a clause should be inserted stating a student must transfer to a school with better testing scores, etc. That would cut down on some athletic transfers right away.

Kids can transfer to Central, even though as a whole the scores aren't as god as the academics at the upper level.

If school A offers 2 years of Spanish and school B offers 4, all ya gotta say is I want to take 4 years of Spanish.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: EagleDad on May 18, 2009, 12:16:44 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 02:52:59 pm
Rattler,  Take her proposal just a hair further.

LRCA
CAC
PA
AB
Lutheran
Episcopal
Conway Christian
Conway St Joe
Union Christian
Shiloh
and Catholic all play in 7A

That's 11 of 16.

Which other 5 teams should play for the 7A title?



Given the attendence at most of these schools, Only the championship game would be competitive. Most of these schools are lucky to field a team, much less compete at the highest level.

Case in point, look at how the 1.75 rule impacted most of the private schools.  Small schools like Arkansas Baptist were lucky to not have players seriously injured or worse (killed) playing teams that sport 3X as many players and much, much larger attendance.  A large percentage of the team was injured playing Nashville 2 years ago and the same problem would arise again in this scenario. 
This is like having your 9th graders play the High School team.

This proposal is nothing more than sours grapes about 2 or 3 schools that have outsmarted the AAA at every turn (not like that is much of an accomplishment).  Multipliers and separate play-off are band-aids to the true problem -   If 2 or 3 schools are the problem, address them directly.

Don't propose a solution (again) that penalizes the innocent.

*******************************************************************************

Keep in mind, the demographics in the major districts (such as LRSD) are changing. When I was a teenager, we had 110+ kids show up for Football. Now, many schools in the LRSD are lucky to field a descent team.

Oh, and the AAA needs to pull the heads out of the sand and address the Public schools in violation as well.   Having attended several basketball games that just about became riots (in the stand and on the court), it is obvious that "Sportmanship " is lacking in the LRSD and Public school recruiting is more common than anyone will admit.

Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 18, 2009, 12:41:32 pm
very true
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: True Fan on May 18, 2009, 01:12:51 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 07, 2009, 09:46:10 am
The law enables students to apply for transfer to a school in another district as long as the transfer does not affect desegregation efforts.

If the home school has a higher minority population than the desired school, you can't go. Well, you can go to the private school, but, you are not allowed to transfer to another public school under school choice.
Title: Re: Things some people don't know about Private Schools
Post by: Lions84 on May 19, 2009, 10:56:20 am
Truefan is correct.   Got to stop White Flight anyway they can.
Title: Re: Proposal Points to Ponder
Post by: Lions84 on May 19, 2009, 11:00:24 am
Folks in the public school are tired of facing All Star teams that USC puts out each year.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 19, 2009, 04:14:18 pm
Thats right but I know a kid who transfer from public school to another public school because of better coaching. Give me your opinion if you think a kid should stay at a school that he is unhappy with.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 19, 2009, 04:16:27 pm
It is an AAA violation to transfer school for athletic reasons which would include moving to be with a better coach.

But since this only involves PUBLIC schools, it will be allowed.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: Billyo62 on May 19, 2009, 04:22:47 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 19, 2009, 04:16:27 pm
It is an AAA violation to transfer school for athletic reasons which would include moving to be with a better coach.

But since this only involves PUBLIC schools, it will be allowed.
Nobody ever says that though, " we are moving to a better house... we got a good deal"

You can't stop people from moving , unless they don't actually live in the house they move to.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 19, 2009, 07:58:22 pm
I know it is a violation but it happens couple hundred times every year public and private. But would you denied a kid a chance to play if he is unhappy at his school.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: johnharrison on May 19, 2009, 09:25:02 pm
No, I would either allow it or not, but not complain only when private schools do it.
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 20, 2009, 06:06:34 pm
Good answer John
Title: Re: Lies and Ignorance About the AAA Public vs Private
Post by: True Fan on May 21, 2009, 06:13:56 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 19, 2009, 04:16:27 pm
It is an AAA violation to transfer school for athletic reasons which would include moving to be with a better coach.

But since this only involves PUBLIC schools, it will be allowed.

In school choice, if it's public to public, a growing number of schools where the student is leaving are refusing to sign off on the transfers. Both schools have to approve it. Between the loss of funds and having the student compete against them, some will claim it's athletic and it requires a bonafide move or a one year break.

And, race plays a part. The Malvern lawsuit will have an impact whichever way it turns out. They rounded up a bunch of kids who were attending outlying schools and forced them back into the district. If they win, a lot of schools will do the same. If they lose, a lot more students will school choice away from other districts.

Very few of the Malvern kids left for athletics.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 21, 2009, 03:19:56 pm
Curious about something.

There is a private school league in Arkansas for 8-man football.  Can't find out too much about it on the internet though.

If some public 1A or public small 2A schools wanted to play 8-man football, could they join the private school league?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 21, 2009, 03:35:25 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 21, 2009, 03:19:56 pm
Curious about something.

There is a private school league in Arkansas for 8-man football.  Can't find out too much about it on the internet though.

If some public 1A or public small 2A schools wanted to play 8-man football, could they join the private school league?
It's six man football.

Abiding Faith in Crossett is part of that league. I think it's actually a league that comprises teams from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. I know Abiding Faith won the tri-state championship a couple years back.

Honestly, I think the smaller schools should look at 8 man football. I think there is a place for it in Arkansas.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 21, 2009, 03:58:42 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 21, 2009, 03:35:25 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 21, 2009, 03:19:56 pm
Curious about something.

There is a private school league in Arkansas for 8-man football.  Can't find out too much about it on the internet though.

If some public 1A or public small 2A schools wanted to play 8-man football, could they join the private school league?
It's six man football.

Abiding Faith in Crossett is part of that league. I think it's actually a league that comprises teams from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. I know Abiding Faith won the tri-state championship a couple years back.

Honestly, I think the smaller schools should look at 8 man football. I think there is a place for it in Arkansas.

they play 8 man back where I'm from.  Its for schools with less than 100 students 9-11
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 21, 2009, 04:05:52 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 21, 2009, 03:58:42 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 21, 2009, 03:35:25 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 21, 2009, 03:19:56 pm
Curious about something.

There is a private school league in Arkansas for 8-man football.  Can't find out too much about it on the internet though.

If some public 1A or public small 2A schools wanted to play 8-man football, could they join the private school league?
It's six man football.

Abiding Faith in Crossett is part of that league. I think it's actually a league that comprises teams from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. I know Abiding Faith won the tri-state championship a couple years back.

Honestly, I think the smaller schools should look at 8 man football. I think there is a place for it in Arkansas.

they play 8 man back where I'm from.  Its for schools with less than 100 students 9-11
Several of the 2A and even some 3A schools are starting have trouble fielding teams. They've got less than 20 kids playing. An 8 man league would be a good alternative to becoming a ghost team. 8 man football is fun to watch too. The six man they play down here is really fun to watch. It's played on a smaller field than 8 man. Seems like it is a 70 yard field including endzones and only 40 yards or so wide.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 21, 2009, 04:30:29 pm
8 and 6 man back home is on a 80 x 40 yard field.  8 man uses basically the same rules as 11.  6 however is a world of its own. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 21, 2009, 05:16:43 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 21, 2009, 04:30:29 pm
8 and 6 man back home is on a 80 x 40 yard field.  8 man uses basically the same rules as 11.  6 however is a world of its own. 
I was close. Couldn't remember exactly. 6 is a trip to watch the first time for sure.
Title: Re: A Better Proposal
Post by: BIGpapaU on May 23, 2009, 10:09:46 am
What if the kid lives outside the school district but inside the 25 mile radius and there is no private or christian school inside his district. Does this mean he can't attend a private school just because 2 schools out of 20 doesn't know sportsmanship ?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: FilmCrew on May 23, 2009, 06:52:41 pm
Is there any "public" schools that play in this league?  Would this be an alternative to playing in the AAA?  I know it has been said that not all private schools play football, but is that counting 8 man football?

In Malvern some of the kids left and went to Glenn Rose (the year they won the state title) and are now having to return to Malvern.  I thought they could go where they want to go.....

 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 23, 2009, 06:59:15 pm
Quote from: FilmCrew on May 23, 2009, 06:52:41 pm
Is there any "public" schools that play in this league?  Would this be an alternative to playing in the AAA?  I know it has been said that not all private schools play football, but is that counting 8 man football?

In Malvern some of the kids left and went to Glenn Rose (the year they won the state title) and are now having to return to Malvern.  I thought they could go where they want to go.....

 
As far as I know it is a Christian Private School league. I'll see if I can stir up any info on it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: FilmCrew on May 23, 2009, 09:11:53 pm
You mean they have a league and the public isn't invited...Shame on them...lol
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 23, 2009, 09:16:31 pm
Quote from: FilmCrew on May 23, 2009, 09:11:53 pm
You mean they have a league and the public isn't invited...Shame on them...lol
It's called the Arkansas-Louisiana Christian Athletic League (ALCAL). They now play 8 man football, basketball, and baseball. I still do not have a list of member schools.

Public schools do not want to be a part of it so that is moot.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: FilmCrew on May 23, 2009, 11:15:38 pm
Really...How do you know?  I have talked to several people that are part of 1A schools and they think it would be a good idea..

Who told you that they weren't interested?

Did they contact these schools and ask them?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 07:12:44 am
The 1A schools wouldn't want to leave the AAA because of basketball and you know it. Anyway, it's not the responsibility of ALCAL to ask. It'd be the schools seeking them out. Seeing as they haven't, they obviously don't want to. ALCAL is a very small league consisting of a half dozen to a dozen or so teams. They have strict rules for participation.
There are three schools in Ark who do play 8 man football who aren't part. Ark School for the Blind is one, the name of the other two has left me at the moment. Maxpreps has them listed.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 10:43:11 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 07:12:44 am
The 1A schools wouldn't want to leave the AAA because of basketball and you know it. Anyway, it's not the responsibility of ALCAL to ask. It'd be the schools seeking them out. Seeing as they haven't, they obviously don't want to. ALCAL is a very small league consisting of a half dozen to a dozen or so teams. They have strict rules for participation.
There are three schools in Ark who do play 8 man football who aren't part. Ark School for the Blind is one, the name of the other two has left me at the moment. Maxpreps has them listed.



School for the Deaf
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 11:26:23 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 10:43:11 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 07:12:44 am
The 1A schools wouldn't want to leave the AAA because of basketball and you know it. Anyway, it's not the responsibility of ALCAL to ask. It'd be the schools seeking them out. Seeing as they haven't, they obviously don't want to. ALCAL is a very small league consisting of a half dozen to a dozen or so teams. They have strict rules for participation.
There are three schools in Ark who do play 8 man football who aren't part. Ark School for the Blind is one, the name of the other two has left me at the moment. Maxpreps has them listed.



School for the Deaf
Duh!   :-[ That was a pre-coffee post and doesn't count. Maybe if Berryville played the School for the Blind they'd have a shot.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 11:33:19 am
Arkansas 8-man freelance:
Arkansas School for the Deaf
Hot Springs Christian
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 12:14:08 pm
EG I want you to know I'd let that oversight slide.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 12:15:07 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 12:14:08 pm
EG I want you to know I'd let that oversight slide.
How good of you to turn a blind eye to it.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: sam on May 24, 2009, 12:50:10 pm
I get so tired of the reasoning that "most" of their players have been at the school since elementary.  Every team I've coached has been only a few players away from being a state championship caliber team.  If I were able to replace a few of my weakest players with better ones the results would be dramatic.  That's where the huge advantage is. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 01:26:04 pm
here's what I heard is going to happen and I think it will cause a law suit......

if you go to a private school and participate in extracurriculars you lose any financial aid you receive. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 01:30:02 pm
The original wording of the proposal from Day 1 has been to seperate schools that grant financial assistance from those that don't provide it.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 01:30:28 pm
Here's a list of the athletic association Conway Christian was a part of before they began participation in the AAA.

http://www.sportsacc.com/ACCGuidelinesJul0106.pdf

If the organization continues to exist, I'd guess there are no public schools in the organization as it takes 100% approval from current members to accept another member.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 01:37:11 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 01:30:02 pm
The original wording of the proposal from Day 1 has been to seperate schools that grant financial assistance from those that don't provide it.




from what I was told last night, that is what the schools like PA, LRC and SC are going to do, quit providing aid to athletes.

which brings up a point, do the public schools still get to provide lunches and other "help" to students that need it or will they have to quit too
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 01:45:38 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:37:11 pm
which brings up a point, do the public schools still get to provide lunches and other "help" to students that need it or will they have to quit too
Not even remotely a point.  If you think so, that's on you.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 01:55:06 pm
QF:  I'm not trying to start a p'ssing contest with you.  I'm simply asking questions so get your panties out of a bunch. 

If the privates have to quit giving aid, what happens to the public school aid that many kids receive?  That is the law suit item I'm wondering about.  If it's good for the Johnsons why can't the Jones do it too?  I was hoping someone in your position could add some unbiased light to the subject. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 02:00:26 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:55:06 pm
QF:  I'm not trying to start a p'ssing contest with you.  I'm simply asking questions so get your panties out of a bunch. 

If the privates have to quit giving aid, what happens to the public school aid that many kids receive?  That is the law suit item I'm wondering about.  If it's good for the Johnsons why can't the Jones do it too?  I was hoping someone in your position could add some unbiased light to the subject. 
Asked and answered.  It's not that hard to understand.

The financial aid supposedly offers allows a kid to change to a private school that he might not otherwise attend.

Conversely the awesome 'free lunch' program would not be a reason a kid would change schools since each public has the same gov't guidelines on income.

Try again.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 02:10:10 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 02:00:26 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:55:06 pm
QF:  I'm not trying to start a p'ssing contest with you.  I'm simply asking questions so get your panties out of a bunch. 

If the privates have to quit giving aid, what happens to the public school aid that many kids receive?  That is the law suit item I'm wondering about.  If it's good for the Johnsons why can't the Jones do it too?  I was hoping someone in your position could add some unbiased light to the subject. 
Asked and answered.  It's not that hard to understand.

The financial aid supposedly offers allows a kid to change to a private school that he might not otherwise attend.

Conversely the awesome 'free lunch' program would not be a reason a kid would change schools since each public has the same gov't guidelines on income.

Try again.

I'm not "trying" anything.  Geez lady can't you have a discussion without being combative. 

ok, on the financial aid issue.  The privates offer financial aid to students which supposedly entices them to attend the private school.  If aid is offered then the privates can lure athletes to their school by saying its for academic reasons.   
Am I correct so far?

with the new proposal if you are an athlete you won't be able to receive financial aid.  correct?   so if you are an athlete and want to attend a private school its on your own dime?  right?


as far as the "free lunch program"  ..... do ALL schools offer this to all students that qualify?


please.......this is not intended to be an argument I just want to know how the system works or is going to work.  educate me
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: BruinFan100 on May 24, 2009, 02:14:55 pm
Quote from: sam on May 24, 2009, 12:50:10 pm
I get so tired of the reasoning that "most" of their players have been at the school since elementary.  Every team I've coached has been only a few players away from being a state championship caliber team.  If I were able to replace a few of my weakest players with better ones the results would be dramatic.  That's where the huge advantage is. 

You may have a point if the few additions are relevant to the teams success.  So at the schools in question who are the additions you reference?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 02:18:21 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 02:10:10 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 02:00:26 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:55:06 pm
QF:  I'm not trying to start a p'ssing contest with you.  I'm simply asking questions so get your panties out of a bunch. 

If the privates have to quit giving aid, what happens to the public school aid that many kids receive?  That is the law suit item I'm wondering about.  If it's good for the Johnsons why can't the Jones do it too?  I was hoping someone in your position could add some unbiased light to the subject. 
Asked and answered.  It's not that hard to understand.

The financial aid supposedly offers allows a kid to change to a private school that he might not otherwise attend.

Conversely the awesome 'free lunch' program would not be a reason a kid would change schools since each public has the same gov't guidelines on income.

Try again.
I'm not "trying" anything.  Geez lady can't you have a discussion without being combative. 
Which words were 'combative'?  You're the one with temper here.  No surprise in that though.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 02:27:14 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 02:18:21 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 02:10:10 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 02:00:26 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:55:06 pm
QF:  I'm not trying to start a p'ssing contest with you.  I'm simply asking questions so get your panties out of a bunch. 

If the privates have to quit giving aid, what happens to the public school aid that many kids receive?  That is the law suit item I'm wondering about.  If it's good for the Johnsons why can't the Jones do it too?  I was hoping someone in your position could add some unbiased light to the subject. 
Asked and answered.  It's not that hard to understand.

The financial aid supposedly offers allows a kid to change to a private school that he might not otherwise attend.

Conversely the awesome 'free lunch' program would not be a reason a kid would change schools since each public has the same gov't guidelines on income.

Try again.
I'm not "trying" anything.  Geez lady can't you have a discussion without being combative. 
Which words were 'combative'?  You're the one with temper here.  No surprise in that though.


hahaha................. I don't have a temper.  Probably one of the most mellow people you'll ever meet.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 24, 2009, 02:27:26 pm
Wait. QF is a female? It all makes sense now.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 24, 2009, 03:57:51 pm
All public schools offer a free lunch program, considering it is a government program.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Ty on May 24, 2009, 03:59:20 pm
SS did the start the ball rolling, with them assuming they were moving up to 6A without any hard data to back that up.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:00:03 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 01:45:38 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:37:11 pm
which brings up a point, do the public schools still get to provide lunches and other "help" to students that need it or will they have to quit too
Not even remotely a point.  If you think so, that's on you.
I agree with Bugeater on this. There is so much hypocrisy by some public schools it isn't funny.

It has already been established that every parent who sends their child to a private school has to spend thousands of dollars to send they. Some have to spend $9K per child. Some get partial assistance and have to pay $5K. That's still $5K. No one with any credibility can suggest that the kid whose parents have to spend $5K to send them to school has an unfair advantage over a kid who rides a free bus to school, eats a free breakfast, eats a free lunch, and gets a free ride home on the bus. This is getting beyond ridiculous.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 04:05:13 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:00:03 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 01:45:38 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:37:11 pm
which brings up a point, do the public schools still get to provide lunches and other "help" to students that need it or will they have to quit too
Not even remotely a point.  If you think so, that's on you.
I agree with Bugeater one this. There is so much hypocrisy by some public schools it isn't funny.
I figured you did, but public schools do not offer (legitimately, otherwise is a diff subject) enticements like financial aid to certain students over others.  The public schools are in stone in terms of education and not cash to the bottomline. 

It's just not the same thing.  Otherwise, these 'scholarships' that go to kids going to private schools would also be offered to those that go to a public school to help out their needs.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 24, 2009, 04:06:09 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:00:03 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 01:45:38 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:37:11 pm
which brings up a point, do the public schools still get to provide lunches and other "help" to students that need it or will they have to quit too
Not even remotely a point.  If you think so, that's on you.
I agree with Bugeater one this. There is so much hypocrisy by some public schools it isn't funny.
It's a government program, signed into action by Harry Truman in 1946. They're required by law to offer the program.

Furthermore, the intended purpose of the program is vastly different than that of the financial aid provided by the private schools. Without the financial aid, the kid couldn't even attend the private school. The free lunch program's purpose is to provide adequate nutrition to all children. It's night and day; anyone who thinks the programs are equivalent is ignorant in that respect.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:07:28 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 04:05:13 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:00:03 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 01:45:38 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 01:37:11 pm
which brings up a point, do the public schools still get to provide lunches and other "help" to students that need it or will they have to quit too
Not even remotely a point.  If you think so, that's on you.
I agree with Bugeater one this. There is so much hypocrisy by some public schools it isn't funny.
I figured you did, but public schools do not offer (legitimately, otherwise is a diff subject) enticements like financial aid to certain students over others.  The public schools are in stone in terms of education and not cash to the bottomline. 

It's just not the same thing.  Otherwise, these 'scholarships' that go to kids going to private schools would also be offered to those that go to a public school to help out their needs.
As I said, none of those kids are going to private school for free. It costs thousands even with aid. I find that whole line of thinking disingenuous.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 04:10:34 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:00:03 pm
It has already been established that every parent who sends their child to a private school has to spend thousands of dollars to send they. Some have to spend $9K per child. Some get partial assistance and have to pay $5K. That's still $5K. No one with any credibility can suggest that the kid whose parents have to spend $5K to send them to school has an unfair advantage over a kid who rides a free bus to school, eats a free breakfast, eats a free lunch, and gets a free ride home on the bus. This is getting beyond ridiculous.
That's by their own choice.  But even with this 20% of aid it is a factor in their choosing a private school to begin with.   No such direct aid to the family like that exists when a kid is poor in a public school.  No money comes forth on a public to public change.

Fact remains those that can pay 80% have an advantage over those that can't pay 80%. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:15:29 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 24, 2009, 04:10:34 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:00:03 pm
It has already been established that every parent who sends their child to a private school has to spend thousands of dollars to send they. Some have to spend $9K per child. Some get partial assistance and have to pay $5K. That's still $5K. No one with any credibility can suggest that the kid whose parents have to spend $5K to send them to school has an unfair advantage over a kid who rides a free bus to school, eats a free breakfast, eats a free lunch, and gets a free ride home on the bus. This is getting beyond ridiculous.
That's by their own choice.  But even with this 20% of aid it is a factor in their choosing a private school to begin with.   No such direct aid to the family like that exists when a kid is poor in a public school.  No money comes forth on a public to public change.

Fact remains those that can pay 80% have an advantage over those that can't pay 80%. 
That's not the argument. The argument is that the private school player gains an unfair advantage by chosing a private school over a public school. There is no one in their right mind that can say that having to pay multiple thousands of dollars to go to school is an advantage over a free education. This is not a class warfare argument. Because a parent has the money to send their child to a private school is not a legitimate argument and will last 45 seconds in court. Because one parent pays $9K and one pays $5K is irrelevant. The determining factor is that they both have to pay.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 24, 2009, 04:21:50 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:15:29 pm
That's not the argument. The argument is that the private school player gains an unfair advantage by chosing a private school over a public school.
Of course it is an advantage.  If that 20% allows them to make a choice they couldn't otherwise make it's huge.  Plus we're obviously dealing with an income bracket that can pay 80% in the first place to the exclusion of others.

I again feel the need to say I agree with the need for private schools and the fact people should have choices as to were to send their children.  But with income already being a big part of it and then there is supplemental money allowed to just a certain income bracket it plays right into the imbalance.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 04:32:46 pm
I would venture to guess that there are far more folks who really have to sacrifice to get those payments made every month than you think. 80% of 9K is 7200, divided by 12 is $600/month. Many have more than one child in school and it compounds the matter.

What you folks in NWA just don't get is that not every private school is like the one in your backyard and painting them all with the same paint brush is flat out wrong.

What I find so hypocritical is that should that parent decide to send their child to a neighboring school district under the guise of school choice and then use that $600 a month for a personal trainer for the kid, no one on the kick'em out side of the debate would have a problem with it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 07:48:44 pm
I was talking to someone about the "financial aid" issue.  At one of the LR private schools there are 7 football players receiving aid.  I don't know about the other private schools but 7 out of 60 (approx) players doesn't seen like that big of a deal to me. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 24, 2009, 07:50:10 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 24, 2009, 03:59:20 pm
SS did the start the ball rolling, with them assuming they were moving up to 6A without any hard data to back that up.


kinda like......... the sky MIGHT be falling........the sky MIGHT be falling......
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 08:06:50 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 07:48:44 pm
I was talking to someone about the "financial aid" issue.  At one of the LR private schools there are 7 football players receiving aid.  I don't know about the other private schools but 7 out of 60 (approx) players doesn't seen like that big of a deal to me. 
It isn't a big deal at all. Not as big as some are trying to make it out to be anyway. It is just an excuse because the reality of the reasoning behind it won't hold water when told truthfully.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 08:35:02 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 07:48:44 pm
I was talking to someone about the "financial aid" issue.  At one of the LR private schools there are 7 football players receiving aid.  I don't know about the other private schools but 7 out of 60 (approx) players doesn't seen like that big of a deal to me. 

Two questions:

Is 7 out of 60 similar to the non-athlete ratio?

How many of the 7 were starters? 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 08:42:10 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 08:35:02 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 07:48:44 pm
I was talking to someone about the "financial aid" issue.  At one of the LR private schools there are 7 football players receiving aid.  I don't know about the other private schools but 7 out of 60 (approx) players doesn't seen like that big of a deal to me. 

Two questions:

Is 7 out of 60 similar to the non-athlete ratio?

How many of the 7 were starters? 
7 or 60 is 11.67%. I would say that's probably lower than the non-athlete ratio.

The starter side, IMO, doesn't matter. The better question is, how long have they been enrolled? If it is a student who has been there since elementary school, all this griping about aid is much ado about nuthin'. I can't say I know a coach in the world who goes to the kindergarten or first grade and evaluates who will be starters when they reach the tenth grade.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 09:07:36 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 08:42:10 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 08:35:02 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 07:48:44 pm
I was talking to someone about the "financial aid" issue.  At one of the LR private schools there are 7 football players receiving aid.  I don't know about the other private schools but 7 out of 60 (approx) players doesn't seen like that big of a deal to me. 

Two questions:

Is 7 out of 60 similar to the non-athlete ratio?

How many of the 7 were starters? 
7 or 60 is 11.67%. I would say that's probably lower than the non-athlete ratio.

The starter side, IMO, doesn't matter. The better question is, how long have they been enrolled? If it is a student who has been there since elementary school, all this griping about aid is much ado about nuthin'. I can't say I know a coach in the world who goes to the kindergarten or first grade and evaluates who will be starters when they reach the tenth grade.

I don't know of a site that would disclose the percentage of a private school's students who receive partial or full tuition assistance.  If you are in position to confirm the non-atletic assistance ratio thank you.

I see merit in the length of enrollment position.  However, especially in today's economic environment, there could be kids who have attended private school since elementary and have now developed into quality high school athletes.  These kids might now find themselves needing assistance to stay at a private school.  The easist form of recruiting is maintaining that which one already has.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 09:14:34 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 09:07:36 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 08:42:10 pm
Quote from: bleudog on May 24, 2009, 08:35:02 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 24, 2009, 07:48:44 pm
I was talking to someone about the "financial aid" issue.  At one of the LR private schools there are 7 football players receiving aid.  I don't know about the other private schools but 7 out of 60 (approx) players doesn't seen like that big of a deal to me. 

Two questions:

Is 7 out of 60 similar to the non-athlete ratio?

How many of the 7 were starters? 
7 or 60 is 11.67%. I would say that's probably lower than the non-athlete ratio.

The starter side, IMO, doesn't matter. The better question is, how long have they been enrolled? If it is a student who has been there since elementary school, all this griping about aid is much ado about nuthin'. I can't say I know a coach in the world who goes to the kindergarten or first grade and evaluates who will be starters when they reach the tenth grade.

I don't know of a site that would disclose the percentage of a private school's students who receive partial or full tuition assistance.  If you are in position to confirm the non-atletic assistance ratio thank you.

I see merit in the length of enrollment position.  However, especially in today's economic environment, there could be kids who develop into quality athletes who without scholarship assistance would otherwise attend a public school.  The easist form of recruiting is maintaining that which one already has.
Oh no, don't take my numbers as gospel. I'm merely guessing that the ratio of assistance for the entire student body is greater than the 7 of 60 put forth by Bugeater.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 09:16:18 pm
Also, my contention about length of time at the school is tied to rules already in place by the AAA. If a kid transfers to a private school after the June before the tenth grade starts, he's got to sit out a year. I'm making the point that, for some schools, the athletes have been at the school their whole education.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: FilmCrew on May 24, 2009, 09:20:29 pm
Bottom line...
Nothing else matters if the Public schools don't want to play the Private schools for whatever reason (color of uniforms, mascot, who pays for some kids lunch, where some of the kids started school) they have the right to vote on it. If they get the 2/3 majority needed then out the private schools go.

But the good news is this you still have a choice.  You can go back to the public system
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on May 24, 2009, 09:25:07 pm
They can't just kick them out if they are playing by the established rules. It'll end up in court and they will look like fools.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: FilmCrew on May 24, 2009, 09:41:54 pm
lol...Like making a fool out of themselves is somehow a road block..

If they take the time to set up a vote.Then they will be very prepared for the court date that will be coming soon.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: BillyJack™ on May 24, 2009, 09:43:28 pm
People aren't shelling out the money to send their kids to these schools as a means to assure them athletic recognition, so they're chances are better of being picked up by D1 schools. (The kids in the upper divisions of public schools with quality athletic programs get most of that attention.) They are there because of religion or they concider the quality of education to be higher.

That being said, why does it matter to them if their kids get to compete with the pulbic schools in athletic events? If their interest is athletic then put the kid where they'll get the attention. If not why does it matter so much if they're voted in or out?

I'm sure someone has a good reason, it was just a passing thought and before I get dogged out, I say let them play. I'm just curious to why the high priority in the matter.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: FilmCrew on May 24, 2009, 09:50:24 pm
I agree...why the big hoop la
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 25, 2009, 12:02:04 am
Quote from: BillyJack™ on May 24, 2009, 09:43:28 pm
People aren't shelling out the money to send their kids to these schools as a means to assure them athletic recognition, so they're chances are better of being picked up by D1 schools. (The kids in the upper divisions of public schools with quality athletic programs get most of that attention.) They are there because of religion or they concider the quality of education to be higher.
It's nice to think that, but it is simply not true.

Frazier isn't at Shiloh because of the education or the fact that it is a religious school.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 25, 2009, 08:45:18 am
Quote from: Ty on May 25, 2009, 12:02:04 am
Quote from: BillyJack™ on May 24, 2009, 09:43:28 pm
People aren't shelling out the money to send their kids to these schools as a means to assure them athletic recognition, so they're chances are better of being picked up by D1 schools. (The kids in the upper divisions of public schools with quality athletic programs get most of that attention.) They are there because of religion or they concider the quality of education to be higher.
It's nice to think that, but it is simply not true.

Frazier isn't at Shiloh because of the education or the fact that it is a religious school.


so why didn't he transfer to Bentonville, Fayetteville, or one of the other 7A schools in the area?  I would think that if he wanted to get just athletic recognition he could get it just as good if not better at one of the bigger schools in the area. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 25, 2009, 09:34:37 am
You're assuming that wasn't a possibility.  ;)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 25, 2009, 12:09:10 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 25, 2009, 09:34:37 am
You're assuming that wasn't a possibility.  ;)

No, I'm assuming it was a possibility and wondering why he didn't.

The same question applies to the "stud" DT Shiloh has. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 25, 2009, 12:11:37 pm
You'll have to go right to the source for that one.  But I think most could assume that they ended up where they got more of what they were looking for by changing.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 25, 2009, 12:19:38 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 25, 2009, 12:11:37 pm
You'll have to go right to the source for that one.  But I think most could assume that they ended up where they got more of what they were looking for by changing.

IYO:  would he start at QB for any of the top 7A West schools?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on May 25, 2009, 12:21:50 pm
Eventually at a few of them.  But probably not at the ones he wanted.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 25, 2009, 12:34:51 pm
that's what I kinda figured......... thanks
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 25, 2009, 12:57:24 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 25, 2009, 12:19:38 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 25, 2009, 12:11:37 pm
You'll have to go right to the source for that one.  But I think most could assume that they ended up where they got more of what they were looking for by changing.

IYO:  would he start at QB for any of the top 7A West schools?
Not as a sophomore.

And maybe not at all, at least at QB.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 25, 2009, 01:15:36 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 25, 2009, 12:57:24 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 25, 2009, 12:19:38 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 25, 2009, 12:11:37 pm
You'll have to go right to the source for that one.  But I think most could assume that they ended up where they got more of what they were looking for by changing.

IYO:  would he start at QB for any of the top 7A West schools?
Not as a sophomore.

And maybe not at all, at least at QB.

what about the DT?   dang it, can't remember his name.......
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 25, 2009, 01:33:04 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 25, 2009, 01:15:36 pm
Quote from: Ty on May 25, 2009, 12:57:24 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 25, 2009, 12:19:38 pm
Quote from: QF© on May 25, 2009, 12:11:37 pm
You'll have to go right to the source for that one.  But I think most could assume that they ended up where they got more of what they were looking for by changing.

IYO:  would he start at QB for any of the top 7A West schools?
Not as a sophomore.

And maybe not at all, at least at QB.

what about the DT?   dang it, can't remember his name.......
Harvill would have played anywhere in the state last year.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 25, 2009, 02:44:29 pm
Harvill......... that's it. 

Was he a soph last season?

6'2" 250?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 25, 2009, 02:47:44 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 25, 2009, 02:44:29 pm
Harvill......... that's it. 

Was he a soph last season?

6'2" 250?
Yes.

96 tackles, 16 sacks, 25 tackles for loss, 3 forced fumbles, 3 recovered fumbles.

55 reps of 185lbs at the Army All-American Combine
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 25, 2009, 04:48:47 pm
Harvill is a beast. He is the reason I watched SC last season. That kid is AMAZAZING. Built like a tank.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 25, 2009, 07:28:13 pm
Do you think there is ANY chance that if he lived in the Berryville district prior to 9th grade, that we would have stayed to play on that team.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 25, 2009, 09:17:26 pm
Did you know.....

there was a player that left Shiloh for Berryville? I couldn't believe it either

Students at Springdale Southwest Jr. High can choose which high school they attend.

The great LR Parkview basketball teams of the 90s were loaded with students that chose to attend an arts and science magnet school.

Freedom of Choice is God-given. I still believe that this is a sportsmanship issue. Know how to win with class.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 25, 2009, 09:22:43 pm
Who transferred to BV from SC?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: AAAspectator on May 26, 2009, 04:51:01 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 25, 2009, 09:22:43 pm
Who transferred to BV from SC?
don't know the name, but I think he is a lineman
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: stina_ar on May 26, 2009, 06:03:15 pm
Well, come back when you do.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 26, 2009, 06:08:37 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on May 25, 2009, 09:17:26 pm
Did you know.....
Students at Springdale Southwest Jr. High can choose which high school they attend.
Completely false.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 26, 2009, 10:05:39 pm
Why, are they exempt from the School Choice law the applies to every public school student in Arkansas?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Ty on May 26, 2009, 10:27:32 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 26, 2009, 10:05:39 pm
Why, are they exempt from the School Choice law the applies to every public school student in Arkansas?
His intention was by the district boundaries. Although many Southwest  students get split between SHS and HBHS, they can't simply choose. They must go through the application process like all others if they want to attend the school that is outside their attendance zone.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on May 27, 2009, 06:21:56 am
OK, so there is a process.

Are there students who apply for a school and then get turned down?    Or does everyone get there choice.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on May 27, 2009, 07:35:21 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 27, 2009, 06:21:56 am
OK, so there is a process.

Are there students who apply for a school and then get turned down?    Or does everyone get there choice.

The law does make the choice process easier if the transfer strudent is part of a racial majority in his or her public school residential district but will be a part of a racial minority in his or her public school nonresidential district.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Chris on May 27, 2009, 12:19:09 pm


Quote from: Ty on May 24, 2009, 03:59:20 pm
SS did the start the ball rolling, with them assuming they were moving up to 6A without any hard data to back that up.
[/quote

Ty,

Take a look at the data over the past 5 years and tell me you would not have drawn the same conclusion as the Siloam Administration; in fact look at all the post on the 5A thread from those that were concluding that Siloam moving to 6A was a foregone conclusion. 

Contrary to what "Bugeater" thinks;  the administration in Siloam Springs has been on top of this issue for several years.  "Bugs"  attacks lack any real substance thus merit because he does not take the time to look at both sides of the issue.  Instead he chooses to use adjectives like "whiners"  "chicken little".
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Chris on May 27, 2009, 12:21:43 pm
my apologies for not properly using the quote function.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 27, 2009, 01:07:46 pm
Quote from: Chris on May 27, 2009, 12:19:09 pm


Quote from: Ty on May 24, 2009, 03:59:20 pm
SS did the start the ball rolling, with them assuming they were moving up to 6A without any hard data to back that up.
[/quote

Ty,

Take a look at the data over the past 5 years and tell me you would not have drawn the same conclusion as the Siloam Administration; in fact look at all the post on the 5A thread from those that were concluding that Siloam moving to 6A was a foregone conclusion. 

Contrary to what "Bugeater" thinks;  the administration in Siloam Springs has been on top of this issue for several years.  "Bugs"  attacks lack any real substance thus merit because he does not take the time to look at both sides of the issue.  Instead he chooses to use adjectives like "whiners"  "chicken little".


if it were me, if I were a SS administrator, I'd get my ducks in a row and be prepared to petition the AAA in the case that we might be in a position to move up.  Then and only then, when the numbers come out IF we were moving up I'd start talking to those that have the power to do what needs to be done.  I wouldn't start talking on "assumptions" two years before the fact. 

Jax and NP WILL combine some day, probably within the next 2-3 years.  Do you see their administrators talking about what 7A conference they will be in?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Coach Hav on May 27, 2009, 02:08:49 pm
If you want to be private then be private. If you want to be public then be public. If you don't want your kids in the same classroom as public school kids, then why would you want them to be on the football field or the basketball court with public school kids?  :-\ Or are you just being hypocritical? People who say, "I want my child to have a christian education", need to realize that athletics are a part of the educational process. If you want to be private be private in all things. Don't cherry pick what you want.  Stand by your values don't contradict them! ;)
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 02:35:04 pm
Quote from: Coach Hav on May 27, 2009, 02:08:49 pm
If you want to be private then be private. If you want to be public then be public. If you don't want your kids in the same classroom as public school kids, then why would you want them to be on the football field or the basketball court with public school kids?  :-\ Or are you just being hypocritical? People who say, "I want my child to have a christian education", need to realize that athletics are a part of the educational process. If you want to be private be private in all things. Don't cherry pick what you want.  Stand by your values don't contradict them! ;)

I can understand your point of view on this, but it only seems to be a problem with a few public schools that feel it's not fair, and sometimes they have a good point.

I have nieces and nephews that play sports for a small private school in Missouri, they only play other private schools and they travel ALOT!

They could not beat a gym class of athletes in the public schools and they don't seem to care, because it's the Christian education that is their priority not the sports.

The problems arise when a school like Shiloh beats up on other small public schools in Football that the public cries foul, Shiloh is not good at everything.  Nobody cries foul about Catholic in 7A and with 939 male students that equates to 1,878 in a public school at a 50/50 split between male and female students which makes them the 8th Largest school in Arkansas for Boys sports.

4A needs to toughen up and let them play, you act like they are Saints or something!

Sorry I couldn't help myself!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: football17 on May 27, 2009, 03:03:42 pm
Quote from: Coach Hav on May 27, 2009, 02:08:49 pm
If you want to be private then be private. If you want to be public then be public. If you don't want your kids in the same classroom as public school kids, then why would you want them to be on the football field or the basketball court with public school kids?  :-\ Or are you just being hypocritical? People who say, "I want my child to have a christian education", need to realize that athletics are a part of the educational process. If you want to be private be private in all things. Don't cherry pick what you want.  Stand by your values don't contradict them! ;)

I hope you really aren't a coach... if so, what a pathetic and sad perspective!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Coach Hav on May 27, 2009, 03:31:31 pm
I am really a coach.  We have played at least one private school every year that I have coached except one.  Sometimes we win, sometimes we don't!  I don't care if private schools play public or not, we are going to try to win every game.  I just wanted to give the sanctimonious people something to think about.  By the way I happen to be a christian, as well. I believe Christianity is not a sometime thing.  Christians are called to "be in the world but not of the world."  A little compassion goes a long way. Scoring 70 and 80 points with the mercy rule invoked is far from compassionate!  There are teams that have beaten us badly, and I wanted to beat the dog out of them when it came my turn.  However I realize that those are kids out there battling and they don't deserved to be embarrassed any more than my kids do.  I realize there are public schools that do this too, but they aren't professing to be Christians.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 03:40:36 pm
Quote from: Coach Hav on May 27, 2009, 03:31:31 pm
I am really a coach.  We have played at least one private school every year that I have coached except one.  Sometimes we win, sometimes we don't!  I don't care if private schools play public or not, we are going to try to win every game.  I just wanted to give the sanctimonious people something to think about.  By the way I happen to be a christian, as well. I believe Christianity is not a sometime thing.  Christians are called to "be in the world but not of the world."  A little compassion goes a long way. Scoring 70 and 80 points with the mercy rule invoked is far from compassionate!  There are teams that have beaten us badly, and I wanted to beat the dog out of them when it came my turn.  However I realize that those are kids out there battling and they don't deserved to be embarrassed any more than my kids do.  I realize there are public schools that do this too, but they aren't professing to be Christians.

What kind of Stupid statement was that!
Is that why Rockhurst Dropped 73 on desmet in the playoffs 2 years ago in Missouri ( Both are Christian Schools )

Is that why Shiloh dropped 60+ points on Berryville last year....

It has NOTHING to do with being a SELF Proclaimed christian.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: stina_ar on May 27, 2009, 03:44:25 pm
Say what?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 03:48:55 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 27, 2009, 03:44:25 pm
Say what?

Bobcat- I knew you would pipe in on that, and I will admit I went over the top a little bit.

but not running the score up has NOTHING to do with Jesus or being a christian.

Shiloh scored 60+ points almost by accident on Berryville , because Berryville was just plain terrible.

Shiloh plays in the exact classification that they are supposed to by the numbers, yet the bad teams are crying foul!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 27, 2009, 03:55:06 pm
"running it up" not Christian? 


you mean to tell me that if Jesus and the apostles were playing Satan and his boys JC wouldn't try to run it up.........
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: stina_ar on May 27, 2009, 03:56:41 pm
LOL      I was only joking. Bug's got a point.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 04:01:50 pm
Quote from: bobcat on May 27, 2009, 03:56:41 pm
LOL      I was only joking. Bug's got a point.

I thought it was funny too, wasn't exactly the direction I was going, but funny none the less.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: sam on May 27, 2009, 05:09:04 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on May 27, 2009, 03:55:06 pm
"running it up" not Christian? 


you mean to tell me that if Jesus and the apostles were playing Satan and his boys JC wouldn't try to run it up.........

I may be wrong, but i think it was Jesus' bench press record that Harvill broke.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on May 27, 2009, 06:41:50 pm
Where's Spurrier? He needs to talk to Shiloh's opponents about "running up" the score. I find it hard to believe that a team is that competitive year in and year out without playing backups extensively in blowouts.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 27, 2009, 09:44:35 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on May 27, 2009, 06:41:50 pm
Where's Spurrier? He needs to talk to Shiloh's opponents about "running up" the score. I find it hard to believe that a team is that competitive year in and year out without playing backups extensively in blowouts.


Spurrier ran it up on people and laughed about it.  BUT............. the look on his face during the 96 Fiesta Bowl was "priceless" as it was happening to his Gaytors
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on May 27, 2009, 10:49:44 pm
I remember. Still the biggest blowout in my lifetime as far as college football goes.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Chris on May 28, 2009, 02:40:38 am
Actually Bugs  if you go back and research the vote that " a majority of Administrators passed...yep hard to believe that all those school officials agreed with a bunch of whiners from Siloam."   You will find that gas was 4 dollars a gallon then and the "price of travel become a critical issue for all schools.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on May 28, 2009, 02:54:56 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 03:48:55 pmbut not running the score up has NOTHING to do with Jesus or being a christian.


I don't know what bible you're reading, but in my bible, Proverbs 3:34 says:

"He mocks proud mockers, but gives grace to the humble."

I mean, a lot of people make the point that sports teach lessons in life. Don't the lessons that Coach Floyd are teaching his football players contradict that verse (and countless others)? I mean, it makes Christians look bad when someone turns on channel 4, and a "Christian" school just hung 80 on someone.

That same Christian school believes, and teaches Christian values like being humble, and expressing humility - well, except when it doesn't apply to them.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on May 28, 2009, 06:41:04 am
I agree, but the administration is probably terrified to confront Josh as he might say, "Screw it, I am headed to Springdale, UA, and then the big time."
'
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on May 28, 2009, 06:41:30 am
Quote from: Chris on May 28, 2009, 02:40:38 am
Actually Bugs  if you go back and research the vote that " a majority of Administrators passed...yep hard to believe that all those school officials agreed with a bunch of whiners from Siloam."   You will find that gas was 4 dollars a gallon then and the "price of travel become a critical issue for all schools.


Oh, I'm not saying the "proposal" was/is a bad idea.  I just don't think I'd be running around telling everyone I was moving up a class lets re-do how the state does things, two years in advance, then we don't move up.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: transplant on May 28, 2009, 07:38:35 am
Quote from: johnharrison on May 28, 2009, 06:41:04 am
I agree, but the administration is probably terrified to confront Josh as he might say, "Screw it, I am headed to Springdale, UA, and then the big time."
'

I don't think Josh's dad it terrified to confront him.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on May 28, 2009, 09:05:10 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on May 28, 2009, 02:54:56 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 03:48:55 pmbut not running the score up has NOTHING to do with Jesus or being a christian.


I don't know what bible you're reading, but in my bible, Proverbs 3:34 says:

"He mocks proud mockers, but gives grace to the humble."

I mean, a lot of people make the point that sports teach lessons in life. Don't the lessons that Coach Floyd are teaching his football players contradict that verse (and countless others)? I mean, it makes Christians look bad when someone turns on channel 4, and a "Christian" school just hung 80 on someone.

That same Christian school believes, and teaches Christian values like being humble, and expressing humility - well, except when it doesn't apply to them.


DQ- I understand the point you are trying to make and I don't disagree with you, but it sounds like you think it's worse if the christian schools score alot of points than if a public school does because they have a higher standard of sportsmanship, also there is a big difference in scoring 50 points a game and running the score up on people.

The 2 schools that get all the heat are Shiloh and Pulaski Academy, both schools seem to hammer on teams on a regular basis, but they play in the smaller classifications and apparently they have better players and coaches than their opponents almost every week. You don't hear anything about Catholic because they play in the 7A and being private doesn't have as big of an impact.

You can't hand the ball to a 3rd string running back and tell him not to run with the ball, he is trying to impress the coach in order to move up to 2nd string or 1st string, on the other hand you don't throw the ball and run trick plays either because that is running up the score.

Bentonville played Nettleton( 5A ) last year and the score was 48-12, Honestly it could have been 90 to 0, But Coach Lunney basically shut down the offense in the 2nd qtr because he knew that it was not going to be a competitive game and played almost everyone on the roster on both sides of the ball, but I will tell you if that was the kind of competition we faced every week ( Like Shiloh and PA face weekly ) we would accidentally drop 60-70-80 points on people every once in a while.

This is in no way a knock on Nettleton, We are almost expected to Mercy rule them by halftime because we have around 1,800 more students than they do to form our Football team
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on May 28, 2009, 04:32:23 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 28, 2009, 09:05:10 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on May 28, 2009, 02:54:56 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on May 27, 2009, 03:48:55 pmbut not running the score up has NOTHING to do with Jesus or being a christian.


I don't know what bible you're reading, but in my bible, Proverbs 3:34 says:

"He mocks proud mockers, but gives grace to the humble."

I mean, a lot of people make the point that sports teach lessons in life. Don't the lessons that Coach Floyd are teaching his football players contradict that verse (and countless others)? I mean, it makes Christians look bad when someone turns on channel 4, and a "Christian" school just hung 80 on someone.

That same Christian school believes, and teaches Christian values like being humble, and expressing humility - well, except when it doesn't apply to them.


DQ- I understand the point you are trying to make and I don't disagree with you, but it sounds like you think it's worse if the christian schools score alot of points than if a public school does

It is an awful double-standard, but that goes along with being a seperatist Christian school. It is 100% hypocritical to do what they're doing. It isn't hypocritical when a public school says that, because that's not a part of the school curriculum. You can't try and lure new people into you're school by saying you're a Christian school, but on Friday hang 80 (on Clarksville I think).  You can't have it both ways. Yes, it is a double-standard, but it comes with the territory.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: outlaw39 on May 28, 2009, 10:30:10 pm
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on May 28, 2009, 04:32:23 pm<br />
It is an awful double-standard, but that goes along with being a seperatist Christian school. It is 100% hypocritical to do what they're doing. It isn't hypocritical when a public school says that, because that's not a part of the school curriculum. You can't try and lure new people into you're school by saying you're a Christian school, but on Friday hang 80 (on Clarksville I think).  You can't have it both ways. Yes, it is a double-standard, but it comes with the territory. <br /><br />

Yep, you're correct. USC beat Clarksville 84-14 in round 2 of the playoffs.

Quote from: Billyo62 on May 28, 2009, 09:05:10 am<br /> You can't hand the ball to a 3rd string running back and tell him not to run with the ball, he is trying to impress the coach in order to move up to 2nd string or 1st string, on the other hand you don't throw the ball and run trick plays either because that is running up the score. <br /><br />

You are also correct. ANYONE who has played the game knows that when they were an underclassman if they were given a handoff, they would run with all they had to try to impress the coach to move up in the "pecking order". That is the main difference between a team giving up and letting the other team hang 50+ on them and a team running the score up. I've seen both. A few years back, I witnessed the "Springdale 5" destroy Prescott. Mustain, Williams, and company were pulled about halfway into the 1st qtr. due to the fact they had already gotten to mercy rule status. After that, Malzhan played 2nd stringers, 3rd stringers, JV, Jr. High, etc. That was a good example of not running the score up. Now, if Malzhan had've left Mustain, Williams, Cleveland, etc. in the game still going wide open, that would've been running it up. Alot of the time, teams just give up and it appears the other team is running the score up. A few years back, Dierks was playing Min. Springs. Into the 3rd, Dierks started making stupid mistakes and Mineral was capitalizing. I heard whining about it for a while, til I pointed out that some of the scores were made by Sophomores with clean uniforms.
If you want an example of a team running the score up, Razorboar fans just need to watch the first year that UofA played the real USC and got 70 hung on them. Scores getting run up are widespread in college football due to the "necessity" for "style points".
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on May 28, 2009, 11:52:50 pm
I blew a gasket in the LA Coliseum that night...especially when they showed Pete Carroll smirking on the jumbotron. Or how bout in 2000 when Tennessee left Casey Clausen and the rest of the starters in well into the 4th qtr...Clausen was throwing downfield with a 56-20 lead.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: outlaw39 on May 29, 2009, 12:18:46 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on May 28, 2009, 11:52:50 pm
I blew a gasket in the LA Coliseum that night...especially when they showed Pete Carroll smirking on the jumbotron. Or how bout in 2000 when Tennessee left Casey Clausen and the rest of the starters in well into the 4th qtr...Clausen was throwing downfield with a 56-20 lead.

Yep. I hate to use my beloved Outlaws again as an example, but last year vs. JC is another example of what I'm talking about. The Outlaws played the Dragons fairly close late in the game. The Outlaws were in the "red zone" numerous times and did not capitalize, while the Dragons broke a few runs of 40+. Late in the game they got frustrated or whatever and JC scored 3 times in the 4th. The late scores weren't due to JC running it up. It was the fact that Dierks made too many mistakes and JC didn't. I hold no grudge with JC. They showed why they are one of the most competitive programs in the state. They did what they were supposed to and Dierks didn't. MOST of the time, that is what happens. Now, like gatecrasher stated, the 2000 Vols leaving the starters in and throwing late in the 4th is running the score up. Your starters letting a 2nd string JV'er score a TD is not.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on June 01, 2009, 10:08:30 am
AAA changed or amended the rule for kids who choose too transfer or use freedom of choice as a means too play sports at a different school district. The way I understand it, you have to sit out 365 days,unless you make a bonifide move into the district that you choose to attend. A bonifide move would be defined as your "primary residence" within the boundries of your school of choice and living with your legal parent or guardian. So renting an apartment in Springdale and getting some tokin mail delivered may not qualify as "primary residence"?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on June 01, 2009, 10:20:28 am
This proposal will not get the required amount of votes to pass, it may get a majority but it will not get the required 2/3 's needed. At least it has got a lot of folks attention, and a change of some sort will be coming in the near future, but it wont be as radical as seperation.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on June 01, 2009, 10:34:09 am
Quote from: QPWFB on June 01, 2009, 10:20:28 am
This proposal will not get the required amount of votes to pass, it may get a majority but it will not get the required 2/3 's needed. At least it has got a lot of folks attention, and a change of some sort will be coming in the near future, but it wont be as radical as seperation.

I agree, there in no way they get 2/3rds vote, but it may make a few schools address some issues, because as we know it's about a few schools, not a state wide issue.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on June 01, 2009, 04:01:32 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on June 01, 2009, 10:08:30 am
AAA changed or amended the rule for kids who choose too transfer or use freedom of choice as a means too play sports at a different school district. The way I understand it, you have to sit out 365 days,unless you make a bonifide move into the district that you choose to attend. A bonifide move would be defined as your "primary residence" within the boundries of your school of choice and living with your legal parent or guardian. So renting an apartment in Springdale and getting some tokin mail delivered may not qualify as "primary residence"?
That is true ONLY after July 1st going into the student's tenth grade year:

From the AAA handbook:

Rule 1. RESIDENCE
A. Public Schools

1. A student's eligibility for interscholastic athletics shall be
in the public school district of the parent's residence.
Refer to other residence and transfer rules for limitations
and situations. The AAA recognizes only one residence
for eligibility. A change in residence consists of a
complete and bona fide move from one domicile to
another.
2. A student may meet the residence requirement at
another AAA member school after attending said
member school for one calendar year (365 days from
initial enrollment).
3. A student shall also meet the residence requirement if
the student receives a legal transfer (school board to
school board) from one public school to another. Board
to board transfers must take place prior to July 1.

4. For eligibility purposes, all transfers must take place
prior to July 1 before a student begins grades 7-10 and
require that CSAP forms be signed for public, nonpublic,
or boarding schools.
5. Students transferring after July 1 prior to beginning the
10th grade year shall not be eligible for one calendar
year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from
one public school district into the public school district
that the student will be attending.
6. Any student who attended a public school district that
has been consolidated or annexed by Act 60 of the 2003
Extraordinary Session and is approved for attendance
under school choice in another school district shall be
eligible to participate in extracurricular activities under
the transfer rule providing they apply for school choice
by July 1 of the calendar year in which their resident
district files notice of annexation or consolidation.


B. Nonpublic Schools
1. Member schools accredited by the Arkansas Nonpublic
School Accrediting Association shall be required to
supply a Changing Schools / Athletic Participation form
to meet the residence requirement for eligibility when a
change in schools is made.
2. After July 1 prior to beginning the 10th grade year, a
student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius of a
nonpublic school must make a bona fide move within a
25-mile radius of the school that the student will attend
to become eligible.
3. Those enrolling after July 1 may not participate in
interscholastic athletics for 365 days from the first day of
their enrollment.

C. Legal Attendance
1. A student's eligibility for interscholastic athletics with
respect to the residence rule may be in the public school
that the student is legally attending at the beginning of
the fall semester, provided a board to board transfer or
CSAP form has been completed and filed with the
receiving district and the AAA.
2. Residence, transfer and legal attendance rules apply
only to students whose parents reside in the state of
Arkansas, transfer within the state of Arkansas or meet
the Changing Schools / Athletic Participation (CSAP)
guidelines. CSAP forms may only be used by schools
within the state of Arkansas.
3. Students residing outside the state of Arkansas must
meet one of the above guidelines in section B and C.
This includes any students from foreign countries except
those in an approved Foreign Exchange Program.
4. Refer to other residence and transfer rules for additional
limitations and situations.
D. Non-school Coach. A student transferring, moving or, for
any reason, attending a new school where the student's non
-school coach is a school coach, or is anyone assisting in
any capacity with the coaching or training of the school
team, is presumed to be attending for athletic purposes if
the student participated in athletics the previous year.

E. Transfers
1. A student changing schools under the Freedom of
Choice law, transferring other than a legal transfer (both
boards agreeing, also known as "release and
acceptance") or any circumstance other than public
school residence rules 1 through 3 above, is assumed to
have changed schools for athletic purposes if the
student participated in athletics the previous year.

2. Same Sport Season. A student changing schools for
any reason who has been a member of an athletic team
may not participate in the same sport at the receiving
school during the same defined sport season.
3. To gain eligibility through the legal attendance rule, the
non-school coach rule or the transfer rule, the following
criteria must be met by using the CSAP (Changing
Schools/Athletic Participation) form:

F. CSAP Forms
1. A Changing Schools/Athletic Participation (CSAP)
document stating that the student was not recruited and
did not change schools for athletic purposes must be
signed prior to participation by:
a. The superintendent or designated administrator of
the previous school.
b. The superintendent or designated administrator of
the new school.
c. The parent(s) or legal guardian(s), witnessed by the
new (receiving) school's administrator or a notary
public.
2. CSAP forms may only be used for eligibility of students
who are enrolled in the receiving school prior to July 1.


J. Transfers Involving Nonpublic/Nonmember Schools
1. From Public To Nonpublic School
a. A student transferring from a public to a nonpublic
school may meet the residence requirement at the
nonpublic school if he/she transfers prior to July 1
provided the transfer is not for athletic purposes.
b. For eligibility purposes, all transfers must take place
prior to July 1 before a student begins grades 7-10
and require that CSAP forms be signed for public,
nonpublic, or boarding schools.
c. After July 1 prior to beginning the 10th grade year, a
student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius
of a nonpublic school must make a bona fide move
within a 25-mile radius of the school that the student
will attend to become eligible.
NOTE: CSAP procedures as listed in the AAA Handbook
must be followed if the student participated in athletics the
previous year.

2. From Nonpublic To Nonpublic School
a. A student transferring from one nonpublic school to
another nonpublic school may meet the residence
requirement at the second nonpublic school if he/she
transfers prior to July 1 before beginning grades 7-
10, provided the transfer is not for athletic purposes.
b. CSAP procedures as listed in the AAA Handbook
must be met if the student participated in athletics
the previous year.
c. For eligibility purposes, all transfers must take place
before July 1 before a student begins grades 7-10
and require that CSAP forms be signed for public,
nonpublic, or boarding schools.
d. After July 1 prior to beginning the 10 grade year, a
student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius
of a nonpublic school must make a bona fide move
within a 25-mile radius of the school that the student
will attend to become eligible.
NOTE: All students transferring to nonpublic schools
become eligible under Rule 1A after attending the
nonpublic school for one year, except that students
entering the seventh grade at the beginning of the
school year are eligible immediately.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on June 01, 2009, 04:06:11 pm
To put one matter to rest, the AAA considers ALL school choice transfers except for bonafide moves by students who played sports in the previous year to be a sports related move. See underlined portion above.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: QPWFB on June 02, 2009, 07:26:54 am
Yes, and 99% of the time they would be right.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 03, 2009, 03:20:13 pm
Sorry but 4A schools don't deserve any such rankings. 
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Baitshop on June 03, 2009, 03:50:45 pm
Let's see......ol' J. Walter does the website for Shiloh and HarBer.....all of those guys from Shiloh have a man-crush on Greenwood......J. Walter used to brag about how he was a contributor for Rivals......this poll was done by Rivals......yeah, this poll is credible..... ::)

BTW, PA would have beaten 3 of those 5 last year.......
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 03, 2009, 04:23:56 pm
Quote from: baitshop on June 03, 2009, 03:50:45 pm
Let's see......ol' J. Walter does the website for Shiloh and HarBer.....all of those guys from Shiloh have a man-crush on Greenwood......J. Walter used to brag about how he was a contributor for Rivals......this poll was done by Rivals......yeah, this poll is credible..... ::)

BTW, PA would have beaten 3 of those 5 last year.......
I'm hoping you think those three are Greenwood, Nashville, and Shiloh.

It's news to me that Har-Ber has been a top notch program over the past decade. I could have sworn they've only had two winning seasons.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 04, 2009, 07:52:22 am
Quote from: baitshop on June 03, 2009, 03:50:45 pm
Let's see......ol' J. Walter does the website for Shiloh and HarBer.....all of those guys from Shiloh have a man-crush on Greenwood......J. Walter used to brag about how he was a contributor for Rivals......this poll was done by Rivals......yeah, this poll is credible..... ::)

BTW, PA would have beaten 3 of those 5 last year.......

PA "could" have beaten all 5 last year. 
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 04, 2009, 08:03:40 am
Quote from: QF© on June 03, 2009, 03:20:13 pm
Sorry but 4A schools don't deserve any such rankings. 

Does that mean Berryville would not even be considered at all, come on that's not fair!  ;)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: GLion Alum on June 04, 2009, 08:07:51 am
There was a story in yesterday's Tulsa World sports section that many of you will find interesting.  I don't have the expertise to post the link, but you can find it at www.tulsaworld.com.  Click on sports and then go to high schools and the story titled "The Great Debate Facing the OSSAA."

The Okies are considering a proposal to reclassify their private schools using a multiplier.  They, however, are proposing that the enrollment in the public school in which the private school is located be considered--the private school's average daily membership (ADM) plus one-half of the ADM of the public school district in which the private school is located.  Imagine what that would do for the classification of Shiloh (located in the Springdale School District) and PA (located in the Little Rock School District).

Other than that unique "solution," the similarities between the two state's proposals are strikingly similar--the Okie proposal was made by a small school, a law suit has already been threatened, etc.  I'm not certain if the legal action was mentioned in the newspaper article, but it was on a Tulsa TV station's report last night that I saw on cable TV in Northwest Arkansas.

One other thing--one of life's great mysteries has been solved for me.  Two or three months ago I posted on FF about Miami, OK's, baseball team being a 5A team, and someone on here correctly called my hand that the War Dogs competed in 4A in baseball.  I was certain that I remembered having read that Miami was 5A.  Well, the article points out that the classifications in Oklahoma can be different for different sports.  Life's mysteries can be quite simple when one is retired. ;D   
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on June 04, 2009, 08:14:15 am
Intriguing idea. I'd like to see the numbers.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Sportsnutt on June 04, 2009, 08:24:22 am
Quote from: GLion Alum on June 04, 2009, 08:07:51 am
There was a story in yesterday's Tulsa World sports section that many of you will find interesting.  I don't have the expertise to post the link, but you can find it at www.tulsaworld.com.  Click on sports and then go to high schools and the story titled "The Great Debate Facing the OSSAA."

The Okies are considering a proposal to reclassify their private schools using a multiplier.  They, however, are proposing that the enrollment in the public school in which the private school is located be considered--the private school's average daily membership (ADM) plus one-half of the ADM of the public school district in which the private school is located.  Imagine what that would do for the classification of Shiloh (located in the Springdale School District) and PA (located in the Little Rock School District).

Other than that unique "solution," the similarities between the two state's proposals are strikingly similar--the Okie proposal was made by a small school, a law suit has already been threatened, etc.  I'm not certain if the legal action was mentioned in the newspaper article, but it was on a Tulsa TV station's report last night that I saw on cable TV in Northwest Arkansas.

One other thing--one of life's great mysteries has been solved for me.  Two or three months ago I posted on FF about Miami, OK's, baseball team being a 5A team, and someone on here correctly called my hand that the War Dogs competed in 4A in baseball.  I was certain that I remembered having read that Miami was 5A.  Well, the article points out that the classifications in Oklahoma can be different for different sports.  Life's mysteries can be quite simple when one is retired. ;D  

Yes - it would move Shiloh and PA up to 6A and it would also put Conway Christian (95 students) and Episcopal (141 students) in 6A.

I really don't think that is the answer. 
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on June 04, 2009, 08:32:20 am
Quote from: Sportsnutt on June 04, 2009, 08:24:22 am
Quote from: GLion Alum on June 04, 2009, 08:07:51 am
There was a story in yesterday's Tulsa World sports section that many of you will find interesting.  I don't have the expertise to post the link, but you can find it at www.tulsaworld.com.  Click on sports and then go to high schools and the story titled "The Great Debate Facing the OSSAA."

The Okies are considering a proposal to reclassify their private schools using a multiplier.  They, however, are proposing that the enrollment in the public school in which the private school is located be considered--the private school's average daily membership (ADM) plus one-half of the ADM of the public school district in which the private school is located.  Imagine what that would do for the classification of Shiloh (located in the Springdale School District) and PA (located in the Little Rock School District).

Other than that unique "solution," the similarities between the two state's proposals are strikingly similar--the Okie proposal was made by a small school, a law suit has already been threatened, etc.  I'm not certain if the legal action was mentioned in the newspaper article, but it was on a Tulsa TV station's report last night that I saw on cable TV in Northwest Arkansas.

One other thing--one of life's great mysteries has been solved for me.  Two or three months ago I posted on FF about Miami, OK's, baseball team being a 5A team, and someone on here correctly called my hand that the War Dogs competed in 4A in baseball.  I was certain that I remembered having read that Miami was 5A.  Well, the article points out that the classifications in Oklahoma can be different for different sports.  Life's mysteries can be quite simple when one is retired. ;D   

Yes - it would move Shiloh and PA up to 6A and it would also put Conway Christian (95 students) and Episcopal (141 students) in 6A.

I really don't think that is the answer. 

Problem is read the article it would take Summit Christian( OK ) from an ADM of 97 Students to 2,326 Students... That's not fair either as you pointed out in 2 examples

I think PA may go up to 7A
Title: Moanin' Berryville
Post by: Maynard G Krebs on June 04, 2009, 09:16:29 am
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/SharpTusk/191373

check this out
Title: Re: Moanin' Berryville
Post by: GLion Alum on June 04, 2009, 09:40:50 am
Before getting on Berryville's case too much, this public schools vs. private schools issue is happening in other states.  Check out www.tulsaworld.com, click on sports and go to the high schools section to read the article "The Great Debate Facing the OSSAA."
Title: Re: Moanin' Berryville
Post by: Billyo62 on June 04, 2009, 11:51:37 am
Quote from: GLion Alum on June 04, 2009, 09:40:50 am
Before getting on Berryville's case too much, this public schools vs. private schools issue is happening in other states.  Check out www.tulsaworld.com, click on sports and go to the high schools section to read the article "The Great Debate Facing the OSSAA."

I have posted a 100 times this goes on Everywhere, all the time, and will go on forever, it's just funny to me that the Arkansas folks are just now getting heated up about it and now and it's a big deal when it only really applies to 2 Private schools in the entire state!
Title: Re: Moanin' Berryville
Post by: QPWFB on June 04, 2009, 12:29:28 pm
I like the way they are trying to adjust the ADM to reflect the population they draw kids from, similar to the old multiplier we had ,except better.
  This affects more than two private schools,theirs a couple of basketball only schools I would like to see moved back into 3A. They got a hugh break last year by being allowed too move back into 2A.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on June 04, 2009, 01:19:51 pm
I think that would have to be Sacred Heart, and what else.

How did they end up the season?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on June 04, 2009, 01:22:23 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on June 04, 2009, 01:19:51 pm
I think that would have to be Sacred Heart, and what else.

How did they end up the season?

Enlightened and full of love ........I'm just guessing of course.!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 04, 2009, 01:46:48 pm
Quote from: QPWFB on June 04, 2009, 12:29:28 pm
I like the way they are trying to adjust the ADM to reflect the population they draw kids from, similar to the old multiplier we had ,except better.
  This affects more than two private schools,theirs a couple of basketball only schools I would like to see moved back into 3A. They got a hugh break last year by being allowed too move back into 2A.

Quote from: johnharrison on June 04, 2009, 01:19:51 pm
I think that would have to be Sacred Heart, and what else.

How did they end up the season?

Don't know what classification they were in 2008, but both St. Josephs Conway's boy and girls teams played in their respective 2A state basketball championship games in 2009.  The boys won their game.

I do think Abundant Life was previously in 3A and had a very good 2A basketball (and baseball) run.

http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/BB_2A_bracket_2009.pdf


Assuming all 63 2A teams play basketball, the 4 private schools in 2A represent 6.3%

ABUNDANT LIFE SCHOOL
LUTHERAN HIGH SCHOOL
ST. JOSEPH HIGH SCHOOL
UNION CHRISTIAN ACADEMY

Two of the 16 teams in the 2A state tournament were private schools or 12.5%

I'm not familar with Sacred Heart, but from the AAA website, it looks like they play 1A ball.

http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/2008-2010%20Reclass%20Numbers.pdf
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 06, 2009, 02:23:50 am
Quote from: QF© on June 03, 2009, 03:20:13 pm
Sorry but 4A schools don't deserve any such rankings. 

You mean 4A Arkansas Schools correct ?  Because we know Texas, Florida and Alabama have some 4A Schools who will pimp slap some people regardless of them being 5A, 6A or 7A.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: MeanGreen on June 06, 2009, 08:14:56 am
Quote from: True Believer on April 25, 2009, 10:22:42 am
And another example (in my opinion)  of why people also think if you say you are a Christian that you are a hypocrite.  I agree "Thanks Shiloh".   What happened to good sportsmanship?
Just remember if Christians were perfect they wouldn't need Jesus.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 06, 2009, 09:13:53 am
No it's the Shiloh Factor. 4A=Shiloh. At least for purposes of that post.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 06, 2009, 11:14:38 am
college teams "running it up" or not, and high school teams "running it up" or not can't be compared.  college football is a multimillion dollar enterprise where coaches make millions and their players have been recruited to play at that school.  high school teams have to play with the cards (players) they are dealt.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: the game on June 06, 2009, 11:19:14 am
  No one I know ,  really considers $hiloh a 4A school , they get their players from a 7A metro area , and because of the Fuzzy math formula that's applies to all private schools whether they be Subiaco or $hiloh , the AAA puts $hiloh in 4A playing against a bunch of small towns , which makes them look better than they really are ;D
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 06, 2009, 11:59:23 am
Why? Bo Hembree's first title team in Warren was one of those few teams that come along every few years that could have played with anyone. Don't even attempt to dispute that unless you saw them in person. At least 4 D-1 players were on that team, plus 3 more that would have been if it weren't for grades
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: AAAspectator on June 06, 2009, 03:21:07 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 06, 2009, 11:59:23 am
At least 4 D-1 players were on that team, plus 3 more that would have been if it weren't for grades
Best defense they saw that year was Chemistry, History and Algebra!
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 06, 2009, 03:38:15 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on June 06, 2009, 03:21:07 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 06, 2009, 11:59:23 am
At least 4 D-1 players were on that team, plus 3 more that would have been if it weren't for grades
Best defense they saw that year was Chemistry, History and Algebra!
And without the tutoring they wouldn't been able to do anything against them.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 06, 2009, 05:37:38 pm
True. But it's irrelevant to what I'm trying to get across.  QF said that no 4A teams deserved natl rankings. I'm offering the opinion that that Warren team could play with anyone.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 06, 2009, 05:40:22 pm
You'd be wrong.  Again.

By ranking a 4A team and no other from it essentially says that all 32 5A, all 16 6A and all 16 7A teams are not as good.  That's easily noted as being absurd.

And even if you make the argument that that team was the best team in Arkansas, you can't even begin to test the fact they are still deserving over so many other teams nationwide. 
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: HorseFeathers on June 07, 2009, 02:49:14 am
Nothn better than a june arguments over fictional national polls
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: HorseFeathers on June 07, 2009, 02:57:18 am
Sacred boys Basketball had a solid run into the second round of their state tournament....seriously though they didnt belong. They were a team that won games they had no business being in athletic wise.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: dc24 on June 07, 2009, 03:06:15 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 06, 2009, 05:37:38 pm
True. But it's irrelevant to what I'm trying to get across.  QF said that no 4A teams deserved natl rankings. I'm offering the opinion that that Warren team could play with anyone.

Well we were AAA that year back when our state had the correct classification system with 5 classes.  I really think we may have been the best team in the state that one season.  We were loaded and we had great players all around.  We had good QB play, line play, defense, everything.  We also beat Stuttgart and Monticello, which were both in the AAAA semi's and I think one was the runner-up.  I definitely know that no one would have wanted to play us in this state that year. 

National ranking?  I'm not so sure about that.  We were good, but I'm sure there were many teams outside this state that were better, much better.  I will say that I thought it was a good gesture that Nashville got recognized in the national top 100 last year or a couple of years ago.  They deserved it.  Those national polls don't really mean all that much anyway, because most of them go off of tradition anyway.  You have to have quite a few successful seasons to be able to break into that and get the respect you probably deserve. 


Quote from: HF on June 07, 2009, 02:49:14 am
Nothn better than a june arguments over fictional national polls

This is a great post.  It's all fictional.  Everyone knows that the smaller schools will get the short end of the stick, and no one can watch every high school team in nation and develop an opinion about the top 100 schools or whatever.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 07, 2009, 08:35:31 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
::)
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 07, 2009, 10:44:24 am
I know that statement isn't all conclusive. I'm knowing this. Right?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 07, 2009, 03:41:01 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on June 06, 2009, 11:14:38 amhigh school teams have to play with the cards (players) they are dealt.

Not in all cases. :P
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 07, 2009, 04:00:48 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 08:35:31 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
::)
????!!!!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 07, 2009, 04:42:21 pm
Some people just buy new decks of cards.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 07, 2009, 04:47:11 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 04:42:21 pm
Some people just buy new decks of cards.

That.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: bleudog on June 07, 2009, 05:22:03 pm
Quote from: BUGEATERS on June 06, 2009, 11:14:38 am
college teams "running it up" or not, and high school teams "running it up" or not can't be compared.  college football is a multimillion dollar enterprise where coaches make millions and their players have been recruited to play at that school.  high school teams have to play with the cards (players) they are dealt.

Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 04:42:21 pm
Some people just buy new decks of cards.

Or just cull the aces out of other people's decks.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:08:31 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 28, 2009, 06:41:04 am
I agree, but the administration is probably terrified to confront Josh as he might say, "Screw it, I am headed to Springdale, UA, and then the big time."
'
Pretty sure he couldn't have Wood's or Johnson's job. Struebeing and Eli are pretty entrenched in their OC jobs as well.

Floyd wouldn't be quite the coach he is without recruiting.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: AAAspectator on June 07, 2009, 06:20:33 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on May 28, 2009, 06:41:04 am
I agree, but the administration is probably terrified to confront Josh as he might say, "Screw it, I am headed to Springdale, UA, and then the big time."
'
More along the lines of "What did you say to me? Hold on, while I go call Dad." Why would he leave when he is untouchable; no principal or supt to answer to. He's never leaving.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.

We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ? Alma has beat S'dale Har-Ber and Har-Ber is a nationally ranked school after 3 years of operation...
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ?
To Greenwood, yes.

Not to mention that was over 3 years ago and Greenwood got embarrassed by Har-Ber this past season.

To anyone else, no.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 07, 2009, 07:15:39 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ?
To Greenwood, yes.

Not to mention that was over 3 years ago and Greenwood got embarrassed by Har-Ber this past season.

To anyone else, no.

Yet our 7A team in question are losers to teams out of Oklahoma and Missouri over past years who are not national teams such as Jenks.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 07, 2009, 07:20:20 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 07:15:39 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ?
To Greenwood, yes.

Not to mention that was over 3 years ago and Greenwood got embarrassed by Har-Ber this past season.

To anyone else, no.

Yet our 7A team in question are losers to teams out of Oklahoma and Missouri over past years who are not national teams such as Jenks.
Are you talking about Har-Ber's loss to Lawton MacArthur? In their second year of existence? You're reaching there.

Want to criticize Bentonville's football program? Or is the small man complex going to slow down a little?

Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 07:20:20 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 07:15:39 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ?
To Greenwood, yes.

Not to mention that was over 3 years ago and Greenwood got embarrassed by Har-Ber this past season.

To anyone else, no.

Yet our 7A team in question are losers to teams out of Oklahoma and Missouri over past years who are not national teams such as Jenks.
Are you talking about Har-Ber's loss to Lawton MacArthur? In their second year of existence? You're reaching there.

Want to criticize Bentonville's football program? Or is the small man complex going to slow down a little?



I'm working with all 3 years of the Har- Ber program. A loss is a loss when one is being put on a national stage. I have no problem with Bentonville, Springdale or Rogers of the 7A West. I know for a fact there's 4A Schools in Texas, Florida and Bama that will show that whole 7A West the door they kicked them through if they played them. So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Wahls on June 08, 2009, 02:11:25 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

This.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 08, 2009, 07:34:13 am
The best 7A teams in Arkansas can certainly be ranked in various sports from time to time.  There are talent spikes. 
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Wahls on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 08, 2009, 11:12:39 am
That is a gauntlet if I ever saw one.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 08, 2009, 03:07:16 pm
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.

That same Longview Team was in Shreveport for the "BORDER BATTLE" when Mustain and Springdale played Evangel. Longview played West Ouachita,(West Monroe) La HS. Anyone in attendence will tell you the Lobo's lead by Texas RB Vontrell Mcgee was the best team there that day. Springdale ran through a less than usual talented Evangel Squad who won the La. 2A State Championship with 4 losses that year. West Monroe (West Ouachita) won 12 games that year and Longview blew them out. The next week Longview blew out Evangel. Blew Evangel out last year 50 to 12 and Evangel won the 2A State Title again. Evangel will not return the game to Longview this year, Hmmm..... Longview was the best team in the Border Battle that year and Springdale knew it.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 08, 2009, 03:09:40 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:34:13 am
The best 7A teams in Arkansas can certainly be ranked in various sports from time to time.  There are talent spikes. 

I agree to that. Springdale in 05 was on that level.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Wahls on June 08, 2009, 03:13:23 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.

Well, Lee was way down in 2005 so that's not a real good point, but John Tyler was a decent win, but nothing amazing. They got beat by Marshall, who is a salty team, but they're 3a if I remember right. West Monroe is just about their only statement game IMO.

Springdale won 35-7 over Evangel. I watched that game. Springdale was FAR from playing their best football against Evangel. Maybe I should rephrase what I meant. If they played at their potential against Longview in 2005, they'd have beaten them by 30.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: ppop on June 08, 2009, 03:48:00 pm
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 03:13:23 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.

Well, Lee was way down in 2005 so that's not a real good point, but John Tyler was a decent win, but nothing amazing. They got beat by Marshall, who is a salty team, but they're 3a if I remember right. West Monroe is just about their only statement game IMO.

Springdale won 35-7 over Evangel. I watched that game. Springdale was FAR from playing their best football against Evangel. Maybe I should rephrase what I meant. If they played at their potential against Longview in 2005, they'd have beaten them by 30.
Marshall is 4A, but their numbers would make them 6A or 7A in Arkansas.
Longview just moved down to 4A after competing in the top class in Texas (5A) for decades.
To say, based on you watching Springdale beat Evangel by 28, that Longview would lose by 30 is assinine, especially when you consider the Loblows beat Evangel by 38!  You say Springdale didn't play well that day. Okay, I'll give you that. Are you certain Longview played well when they hung more than 50 on Evangel?
I'll admit I'm biased, having played my HS ball in Texas, but I can definitively say that Texas is a different world from Arkansas when it comes to HS football.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 08, 2009, 06:29:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.

Springdale in 05 was the same team basicly that LR Central kicked to sleep in 04. Longview's depth and talent would've pulled a LR Central on Springdale in 05. Mustain would've been running for his life from the Lobo's speed. Damien Williams would've had a harder time of getting open as well. Springdale 05 was good, but Longview was better. By the way that 04 Little Rock Central team was pretty decent but would have problems with Longview as well. The best way to find out who's the best is put the Lobo's on your schedule. Put Gilmore, Lufkin, Tyler or Marshall on you're schedule, Heck Texas High beat the brakes off of Lake Hamilton (6A Champ) last year! Then talked bad about them. Call them up and play one of these teams and find out what EAST TEXAS FOOTBALL is all about.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 08, 2009, 06:50:26 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 06:29:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.

Springdale in 05 was the same team basicly that LR Central kicked to sleep in 04. Longview's depth and talent would've pulled a LR Central on Springdale in 05. Mustain would've been running for his life from the Lobo's speed. Damien Williams would've had a harder time of getting open as well. Springdale 05 was good, but Longview was better. By the way that 04 Little Rock Central team was pretty decent but would have problems with Longview as well. The best way to find out who's the best is put the Lobo's on your schedule. Put Gilmore, Lufkin, Tyler or Marshall on you're schedule, Heck Texas High beat the brakes off of Lake Hamilton (6A Champ) last year! Then talked bad about them. Call them up and play one of these teams and find out what EAST TEXAS FOOTBALL is all about.
Springdale '05 was far from the same team that took the field against LR Central. First, and foremost, we're talking about another year of puberty for all of those players, an entire off-season in the weight room, and the added addition of numerous college prospects in the SHS class of '07 (Zach Pianalto, Eric Jones, etc.), who were much more talented in general than the class of '05. The belief that the same team that lost to Central was the one that took the field in '05 is completely idiotic.

Take another Springdale school, Har-Ber. In their first year of varsity action, they were blown out numerous times. A year later, with another year of growth, another year of work in the weight room and the practice field, and the introduction of college prospects (Stephen Needham, Derek Brinker, Zach Faust), they lose in the state finals to a very experienced Fayetteville team.

For what it is worth, the scenario will more than likely repeat itself this upcoming season with SHS. Most of the senior football players have either started or contributed since their sophomore season due to the imbalance of talent after the split of the schools. Add two years of growth, two years of work in the weight room, and an influx in talent in the younger grades (Jospeh Calcagni, Tony Dennis, Mitchell Smothers) and they look as good as a SHS team has since '05.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: RD™ on June 08, 2009, 07:03:57 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ?
To Greenwood, yes.

Not to mention that was over 3 years ago and Greenwood got embarrassed by Har-Ber this past season.

To anyone else, no.
Beat yes, embarrassed hardly. Depth took over in the mid 3rd quarter, up to that point Greenwood was right there with Har-Ber. Har-Ber embarrassed Alma, I witnessed that one personally
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 08, 2009, 07:36:52 pm
Quote from: RD™ on June 08, 2009, 07:03:57 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 07, 2009, 06:01:36 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.
How does her logic disqualify a 7A team?

4A- Not the toughest competition in the state.
7A (West in particular)- Toughest competition in the state.
We have 7A West teams that lose to 5A schools. Greenwood beats FS Southside.  So the same rules apply dont they ?
To Greenwood, yes.

Not to mention that was over 3 years ago and Greenwood got embarrassed by Har-Ber this past season.

To anyone else, no.
Beat yes, embarrassed hardly. Depth took over in the mid 3rd quarter, up to that point Greenwood was right there with Har-Ber. Har-Ber embarrassed Alma, I witnessed that one personally
I guess most teams want to lose by 30 points every week.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 08, 2009, 11:14:44 pm
If that Lobos team was so good why weren't they in the national top 5? No way that that Lobo team beats that Springdale team. Someone go to cal-preps and simulate the game and see what the projection says. Just curious. I would but I'm on mobile.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:22:18 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 11:14:44 pm
If that Lobos team was so good why weren't they in the national top 5? No way that that Lobo team beats that Springdale team. Someone go to cal-preps and simulate the game and see what the projection says. Just curious. I would but I'm on mobile.
From cal preps:

at Springdale (AR)
[2005] Springdale (AR) 28, [2005] Longview (TX) 27

at Longview (TX)
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 26

at neutral site
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 27

ppop says, "GET YOU SOME!"  ;D

And remember, the Lobos '07 & '08 Longview teams were considered to be a good deal better than the '05 squad.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 08, 2009, 11:31:04 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:22:18 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 11:14:44 pm
If that Lobos team was so good why weren't they in the national top 5? No way that that Lobo team beats that Springdale team. Someone go to cal-preps and simulate the game and see what the projection says. Just curious. I would but I'm on mobile.
From cal preps:

at Springdale (AR)
[2005] Springdale (AR) 28, [2005] Longview (TX) 27

at Longview (TX)
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 26

at neutral site
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 27

ppop says, "GET YOU SOME!"  ;D

And remember, the Lobos '07 & '08 Longview teams were considered to be a good deal better than the '05 squad.
Congrats. You know that thing is a joke?

Springdale finished as high as 2nd in the nation that season. How about longview?
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:34:19 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 11:31:04 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:22:18 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 11:14:44 pm
If that Lobos team was so good why weren't they in the national top 5? No way that that Lobo team beats that Springdale team. Someone go to cal-preps and simulate the game and see what the projection says. Just curious. I would but I'm on mobile.
From cal preps:

at Springdale (AR)
[2005] Springdale (AR) 28, [2005] Longview (TX) 27

at Longview (TX)
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 26

at neutral site
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 27

ppop says, "GET YOU SOME!"  ;D

And remember, the Lobos '07 & '08 Longview teams were considered to be a good deal better than the '05 squad.
Congrats. You know that thing is a joke?

Springdale finished as high as 2nd in the nation that season. How about longview?
Heck, the Lowblows got beat in the first round of the playoffs. I don't know that Longview could have hung with Springdale, but I certainly believe there's no way they get beat by 30, as was stated earlier in this thread. I'm not drinking that coolaid.
Oh, and I'm not the one that asked about cal-preps, but if it had projected a big Springdale win a bunch of folks would have been all over it.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 08, 2009, 11:46:30 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:34:19 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 11:31:04 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:22:18 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 11:14:44 pm
If that Lobos team was so good why weren't they in the national top 5? No way that that Lobo team beats that Springdale team. Someone go to cal-preps and simulate the game and see what the projection says. Just curious. I would but I'm on mobile.
From cal preps:

at Springdale (AR)
[2005] Springdale (AR) 28, [2005] Longview (TX) 27

at Longview (TX)
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 26

at neutral site
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 27

ppop says, "GET YOU SOME!"  ;D

And remember, the Lobos '07 & '08 Longview teams were considered to be a good deal better than the '05 squad.
Congrats. You know that thing is a joke?

Springdale finished as high as 2nd in the nation that season. How about longview?
Heck, the Lowblows got beat in the first round of the playoffs. I don't know that Longview could have hung with Springdale, but I certainly believe there's no way they get beat by 30, as was stated earlier in this thread. I'm not drinking that coolaid.
Oh, and I'm not the one that asked about cal-preps, but if it had projected a big Springdale win a bunch of folks would have been all over it.
It also predicts Springdale '05 beating this past years Bentonville team by a point. if anyone believes that, I've got some land in Florida for sale that could really be developed in a money make.

Very few teams would have stayed within 3 touchdowns of Springdale that season.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 08, 2009, 11:46:49 pm
I was just curious what the projection would be. I said SHS would beat them by 2 to 3 TDs. Mustain to Williams would have been too much for them. 
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Wahls on June 09, 2009, 01:07:02 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO.

That.

They'd get beat by 30+ on all cylinders against Springdale. There's nobody that could stop Williams when you're quarterback is that good. It's nothing against Longview, it's just that the Springdale team of 05 was nuts.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 07:59:57 am
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 11:46:30 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:34:19 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 11:31:04 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 11:22:18 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 11:14:44 pm
If that Lobos team was so good why weren't they in the national top 5? No way that that Lobo team beats that Springdale team. Someone go to cal-preps and simulate the game and see what the projection says. Just curious. I would but I'm on mobile.
From cal preps:

at Springdale (AR)
[2005] Springdale (AR) 28, [2005] Longview (TX) 27

at Longview (TX)
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 26

at neutral site
[2005] Longview (TX) 28, [2005] Springdale (AR) 27

ppop says, "GET YOU SOME!"  ;D

And remember, the Lobos '07 & '08 Longview teams were considered to be a good deal better than the '05 squad.
Congrats. You know that thing is a joke?

Springdale finished as high as 2nd in the nation that season. How about longview?
Heck, the Lowblows got beat in the first round of the playoffs. I don't know that Longview could have hung with Springdale, but I certainly believe there's no way they get beat by 30, as was stated earlier in this thread. I'm not drinking that coolaid.
Oh, and I'm not the one that asked about cal-preps, but if it had projected a big Springdale win a bunch of folks would have been all over it.
It also predicts Springdale '05 beating this past years Bentonville team by a point. if anyone believes that, I've got some land in Florida for sale that could really be developed in a money make.

Very few teams would have stayed within 3 touchdowns of Springdale that season.

as good as Bentonvilles defense was last year, I can't even buy that prediction. How Silly!

SHS '05 was just plain Scary Awesome, no matter what state you put them in, I don't think it would have mattered, they may have kept the offense on the field more than 2 Quarters in  Texas or any other big state most games but the outcome would have been the same. They win and they win easy!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: benchball on June 09, 2009, 09:23:38 am
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/SharpTusk/191373


WOW
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: benchball on June 09, 2009, 09:24:40 am
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/SharpTusk/191373

WOW
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 09, 2009, 09:46:54 am
That 05 team is in the "few exceptions" category of Arkansas teams that can compete in Texas. Put the 04 Central, the 98 JA Fair, and the 90 Pine Bluff teams in that category. There may be a few others that made a run at that but these all won championships and finished in someone's national Top 25.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 10:07:53 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 09, 2009, 09:46:54 am
That 05 team is in the "few exceptions" category of Arkansas teams that can compete in Texas. Put the 04 Central, the 98 JA Fair, and the 90 Pine Bluff teams in that category. There may be a few others that made a run at that but these all won championships and finished in someone's national Top 25.

Gate - That's a point that I have tried to make in the past, I love the folks of Arkansas, but when you have past experience in other states your perspective of Arkansas football is totally different.

It's like when your little and you live next door to the toughest kid on your street, He's really tough, then you get a little older and go 2, 4 or 20 streets over and you find out he's not near as tough as you thought, because there are alot of kids just as tough and alot of kids MUCH tougher!  ;D
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 09, 2009, 01:39:03 pm
My contention still remains the there are some 7A teams from Arkansas that could qualify for national rankings on an occassional basis.

What's funny is to compare teams on spec from state to state which is what this thread is referencing.   Neither has even played a game yet.

Some latitude for in-state comparisons in preseason are possible. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 09, 2009, 01:42:05 pm
How many times does that outsiders opinion need to be posted?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 09, 2009, 01:43:27 pm
Quote from: benchball on June 09, 2009, 09:23:38 am
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/SharpTusk/191373


WOW
Old news.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 02:00:05 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 09, 2009, 01:39:03 pm
My contention still remains the there are some 7A teams from Arkansas that could qualify for national rankings on an occassional basis.

What's funny is to compare teams on spec from state to state which is what this thread is referencing.   Neither has even played a game yet.
Some latitude for in-state comparisons in preseason are possible. 

QF- If we are considering next year , my guess is at this time NOBODY is ranked in the top 100 in the country for next year from Arkansas , simply because it's Arkansas ( 2A to 7A ), you have to dog fight your way into a national ranking if you're a team from Arkansas, we don't get the exposure and because the football is not played at the level of states like Texas, Oklahoma and many others on a week to week schedule, it's just not!
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 09, 2009, 02:04:49 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 02:00:05 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 09, 2009, 01:39:03 pm
My contention still remains the there are some 7A teams from Arkansas that could qualify for national rankings on an occassional basis.

What's funny is to compare teams on spec from state to state which is what this thread is referencing.   Neither has even played a game yet.
Some latitude for in-state comparisons in preseason are possible. 
Because the football is not played at the level of states like Oklahoma and many others on a week to week schedule, it's just not!
The 7A-West is a tougher conference top to bottom than the districts that Union and Jenks play in
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 09, 2009, 02:06:54 pm
All I've said from the get go is any 4A teams is bunk and then as the conversation developed that 7A schools occasionally warrant such rankings.

Take that however you wish with personal conjecture.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 02:26:49 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 09, 2009, 02:06:54 pm
All I've said from the get go is any 4A teams is bunk and then as the conversation developed that 7A schools occasionally warrant such rankings.

Take that however you wish with personal conjecture.

Yes you have, and I agree with you, any 4A football team in Arkansas has no business EVER claiming ANY ranking on ANY poll of ANY kind on the national level! but when you say that all the 4A folks hear is " I guess you think because you're bigger your better " 

Wake up- no school with a 150 boys in the 4A Class of Arkansas is ever going to be that good!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on June 09, 2009, 02:53:18 pm
I thought it was an interesting essay
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: olddog79 on June 09, 2009, 03:36:21 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 09, 2009, 02:04:49 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 02:00:05 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 09, 2009, 01:39:03 pm
My contention still remains the there are some 7A teams from Arkansas that could qualify for national rankings on an occassional basis.

What's funny is to compare teams on spec from state to state which is what this thread is referencing.   Neither has even played a game yet.
Some latitude for in-state comparisons in preseason are possible. 
Because the football is not played at the level of states like Oklahoma and many others on a week to week schedule, it's just not!
The 7A-West is a tougher conference top to bottom than the districts that Union and Jenks play in
That's true. Once you get past Union and Jenks the talent level dips quickly. Muskogee and Owasso aren't bad, but they don't compare to the 7A west. Personally I think Oklahoma HS football is below Arkansas in many ways. Texas....maybe not.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 09, 2009, 08:17:42 pm
Quote from: olddog79 on June 09, 2009, 03:36:21 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 09, 2009, 02:04:49 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 02:00:05 pm
Quote from: QF© on June 09, 2009, 01:39:03 pm
My contention still remains the there are some 7A teams from Arkansas that could qualify for national rankings on an occassional basis.

What's funny is to compare teams on spec from state to state which is what this thread is referencing.   Neither has even played a game yet.
Some latitude for in-state comparisons in preseason are possible. 
Because the football is not played at the level of states like Oklahoma and many others on a week to week schedule, it's just not!
The 7A-West is a tougher conference top to bottom than the districts that Union and Jenks play in
That's true. Once you get past Union and Jenks the talent level dips quickly. Muskogee and Owasso aren't bad, but they don't compare to the 7A west. Personally I think Oklahoma HS football is below Arkansas in many ways. Texas....maybe not.
I would say it (Oklahoma) is below Arkansas in the largest class (7A vs. 6A) and about even in the second largest class (some of the 5A schools, i.e., Booker T. Washington, Carl Albert, and Guthrie, can flat out play every single season.) I would give a big advantage to our 4A schools against the Oklahoma teams of similar size; Nashville, Warren, Dollarway, and SC would mercy rule their way to titles in Oklahoma most seasons. Smaller schools, however, would find it difficult. Junction City could compete every season but that is the only school that comes to the top of my head.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Wahls on June 09, 2009, 09:55:34 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 09, 2009, 02:26:49 pm
but when you say that all the 4A folks hear is " I guess you think because you're bigger your better " 


Link?
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 10, 2009, 01:23:48 am
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 06:50:26 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 06:29:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.

Springdale in 05 was the same team basicly that LR Central kicked to sleep in 04. Longview's depth and talent would've pulled a LR Central on Springdale in 05. Mustain would've been running for his life from the Lobo's speed. Damien Williams would've had a harder time of getting open as well. Springdale 05 was good, but Longview was better. By the way that 04 Little Rock Central team was pretty decent but would have problems with Longview as well. The best way to find out who's the best is put the Lobo's on your schedule. Put Gilmore, Lufkin, Tyler or Marshall on you're schedule, Heck Texas High beat the brakes off of Lake Hamilton (6A Champ) last year! Then talked bad about them. Call them up and play one of these teams and find out what EAST TEXAS FOOTBALL is all about.
Springdale '05 was far from the same team that took the field against LR Central. First, and foremost, we're talking about another year of puberty for all of those players, an entire off-season in the weight room, and the added addition of numerous college prospects in the SHS class of '07 (Zach Pianalto, Eric Jones, etc.), who were much more talented in general than the class of '05. The belief that the same team that lost to Central was the one that took the field in '05 is completely idiotic.

Take another Springdale school, Har-Ber. In their first year of varsity action, they were blown out numerous times. A year later, with another year of growth, another year of work in the weight room and the practice field, and the introduction of college prospects (Stephen Needham, Derek Brinker, Zach Faust), they lose in the state finals to a very experienced Fayetteville team.

For what it is worth, the scenario will more than likely repeat itself this upcoming season with SHS. Most of the senior football players have either started or contributed since their sophomore season due to the imbalance of talent after the split of the schools. Add two years of growth, two years of work in the weight room, and an influx in talent in the younger grades (Jospeh Calcagni, Tony Dennis, Mitchell Smothers) and they look as good as a SHS team has since '05.

Put Longview on your schedule..... Then when you lose to them as Evangel has take them off your schedule. As for College Talent in 05, Longview had 17 guys in 05 sign college letters of intent. They would've played Springdale straight up that year.  WHEN THE LONGVIEW LOBO"S CALL OVER TO ARKANSAS for a game the answer is always NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In some years they play Lufkin twice just to fill out the schedule. Put John Outlaw (Arkadelphia HS) and Lufkin on your schedule, they're no slouch either.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Wahls on June 10, 2009, 01:56:16 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 10, 2009, 01:23:48 am

Put Longview on your schedule..... Then when you lose to them as Evangel has take them off your schedule. As for College Talent in 05, Longview had 17 guys in 05 sign college letters of intent. They would've played Springdale straight up that year.  WHEN THE LONGVIEW LOBO"S CALL OVER TO ARKANSAS for a game the answer is always NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In some years they play Lufkin twice just to fill out the schedule. Put John Outlaw (Arkadelphia HS) and Lufkin on your schedule, they're no slouch either.

The only two teams in Texas that would have given them a run/possibly beaten them is Southlake, or Euless.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 10, 2009, 02:30:23 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 10, 2009, 01:23:48 am
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 06:50:26 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 06:29:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.

Springdale in 05 was the same team basicly that LR Central kicked to sleep in 04. Longview's depth and talent would've pulled a LR Central on Springdale in 05. Mustain would've been running for his life from the Lobo's speed. Damien Williams would've had a harder time of getting open as well. Springdale 05 was good, but Longview was better. By the way that 04 Little Rock Central team was pretty decent but would have problems with Longview as well. The best way to find out who's the best is put the Lobo's on your schedule. Put Gilmore, Lufkin, Tyler or Marshall on you're schedule, Heck Texas High beat the brakes off of Lake Hamilton (6A Champ) last year! Then talked bad about them. Call them up and play one of these teams and find out what EAST TEXAS FOOTBALL is all about.
Springdale '05 was far from the same team that took the field against LR Central. First, and foremost, we're talking about another year of puberty for all of those players, an entire off-season in the weight room, and the added addition of numerous college prospects in the SHS class of '07 (Zach Pianalto, Eric Jones, etc.), who were much more talented in general than the class of '05. The belief that the same team that lost to Central was the one that took the field in '05 is completely idiotic.

Take another Springdale school, Har-Ber. In their first year of varsity action, they were blown out numerous times. A year later, with another year of growth, another year of work in the weight room and the practice field, and the introduction of college prospects (Stephen Needham, Derek Brinker, Zach Faust), they lose in the state finals to a very experienced Fayetteville team.

For what it is worth, the scenario will more than likely repeat itself this upcoming season with SHS. Most of the senior football players have either started or contributed since their sophomore season due to the imbalance of talent after the split of the schools. Add two years of growth, two years of work in the weight room, and an influx in talent in the younger grades (Jospeh Calcagni, Tony Dennis, Mitchell Smothers) and they look as good as a SHS team has since '05.

Put Longview on your schedule..... Then when you lose to them as Evangel has take them off your schedule. As for College Talent in 05, Longview had 17 guys in 05 sign college letters of intent. They would've played Springdale straight up that year.  WHEN THE LONGVIEW LOBO"S CALL OVER TO ARKANSAS for a game the answer is always NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In some years they play Lufkin twice just to fill out the schedule. Put John Outlaw (Arkadelphia HS) and Lufkin on your schedule, they're no slouch either.
See, most people talk back on forth on here, in an argumentative format. You failed to address any of my points, instead, going off on a ramble. I'd like to give you another chance to try and refute at least one of my points without going off on a ramble like you just did.

As for your rant, I checked the Longview football site and it claims that only 5 players signed LOIs in 2005, which is quite a few less than your claim of 17. Which is it? Are you lying or the football website?

Really, there is no need for Springdale, Har-Ber, or anyone in the state to schedule a team all the way from Texas. The NWA region of the state has great access to Tulsa and Oklahoma City with 412 West and the turnpike system in Oklahoma. They can also easily head north to play teams such as Jefferson City and Fort Zumwalt.

Another aspect is the fact that you have consistently made this into an Arkansas vs. Texas argument. No one here is trying to argue the merits of Arkansas vs. Texas HS football; we concede that it is better. The debate settles on just how good of a football team Springdale '05 was and their "hypothetical" game against Longview.

Delving into outside sources, Springdale finished 2nd in the nation that season in Cal Preps cumulative ranking system, while Longview finished 56th.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 07:51:12 am
Proposal rejected on private schools    

"NORTH LITTLE ROCK (AP) — The board of the Arkansas Activities Association recommended Tuesday that member schools reject a proposal that would order private schools to compete for separate championships.
   Lance Taylor, the AAA's executive director, said the board voted 16-3 to attach a do-not-pass recommendation to that proposal. The board's vote is largely symbolic. The AAA's full governing body will vote on the proposal in August.
   The proposal, supported by the Berryville and Harrison school districts, would separate private schools for postseason play. Private schools would still play public schools during the regular season."
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 10, 2009, 09:01:19 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 07:51:12 am
Proposal rejected on private schools    

"NORTH LITTLE ROCK (AP) — The board of the Arkansas Activities Association recommended Tuesday that member schools reject a proposal that would order private schools to compete for separate championships.
   Lance Taylor, the AAA’s executive director, said the board voted 16-3 to attach a do-not-pass recommendation to that proposal. The board’s vote is largely symbolic. The AAA’s full governing body will vote on the proposal in August.
   The proposal, supported by the Berryville and Harrison school districts, would separate private schools for postseason play. Private schools would still play public schools during the regular season."


see, y'all up in NWA don't run things in this state ..............yet
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Eddie Goodson on June 10, 2009, 09:04:24 am
No way a super majority bucks a do not pass recommendation. This matter is DOA.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 10, 2009, 09:24:11 am
By the way-Lake Hamilton lost to Texas High by a mere touchdown. Phillip Butterfield picked that day to have the worst game of his life. That came from his mouth-not mine.
Title: Playoff Proposal Dead
Post by: QPWFB on June 10, 2009, 09:49:53 am
AAA board of directors have voted 16-3 to give a no vote to the new seperate playoff system. The final vote will be in Aug. but this proposal is pretty much dead. I'm really kind of glad,I don't think seperation was the right thing to do.I would really like to see some sort of multiplier system that takes in consideration the population of the area students are drawn from, and level of competition.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: ppop on June 10, 2009, 09:56:43 am
Quote from: Ty on June 10, 2009, 02:30:23 amDelving into outside sources, Springdale finished 2nd in the nation that season in Cal Preps cumulative ranking system, while Longview finished 56th.

I have little doubt the '05 Sprindale team would have probably beaten Longview. My issue was with those who say it would have been a 30+ point blowout.
I noticed something about the Calpreps '05 ranking. No other Arkansas team was ranked in the top 75. Springdale, as great as they were, didn't play a team ranked in the top 75. As best as I can tell, the only team they played that played a team in the top 75 was Evangel. Longview played at least 3 such teams (Marshall, Lake Highlands, and Evangel.) Now, maybe I'm reaching - - and this discussion could go on and on - - but I do not believe you can assume a 30 point win (or even a 3 touchdown win) based on the information at hand.
It's been a good discussion, though. I've enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 10, 2009, 01:03:47 pm
It's been destined to fail from the get go with the 2/3 needed and if anyone thought the AAA board would recommend it you were shortsighted.

But you can see the original proposal has fostered debate and it has forced them towards seeking other solutions.

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: arthurhawgerelli on June 10, 2009, 01:30:18 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on June 10, 2009, 09:04:24 am
No way a super majority bucks a do not pass recommendation. This matter is DOA.

Not true.  The original 1.35 thing received a "do not pass."  I'm hearing the board has a counter proposal, but if they don't, a "do not pass" by the board does not always defeat a controversial proposal.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on June 10, 2009, 01:33:06 pm
Quote from: arthurhawgerelli on June 10, 2009, 01:30:18 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on June 10, 2009, 09:04:24 am
No way a super majority bucks a do not pass recommendation. This matter is DOA.

Not true.  The original 1.35 thing received a "do not pass."  I'm hearing the board has a counter proposal, but if they don't, a "do not pass" by the board does not always defeat a controversial proposal.

Was that a 16 to 3 for Do not pass ?       or a 10 to 9...?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 10, 2009, 01:35:10 pm
I think most private schools should be glad this is a 2/3 to change deal.  If it was a simple majority requirement, this would be a crap shoot.

Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: olddog79 on June 10, 2009, 01:38:05 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 10, 2009, 09:56:43 am
Quote from: Ty on June 10, 2009, 02:30:23 amDelving into outside sources, Springdale finished 2nd in the nation that season in Cal Preps cumulative ranking system, while Longview finished 56th.

I have little doubt the '05 Sprindale team would have probably beaten Longview. My issue was with those who say it would have been a 30+ point blowout.
I noticed something about the Calpreps '05 ranking. No other Arkansas team was ranked in the top 75. Springdale, as great as they were, didn't play a team ranked in the top 75. As best as I can tell, the only team they played that played a team in the top 75 was Evangel. Longview played at least 3 such teams (Marshall, Lake Highlands, and Evangel.) Now, maybe I'm reaching - - and this discussion could go on and on - - but I do not believe you can assume a 30 point win (or even a 3 touchdown win) based on the information at hand.
It's been a good discussion, though. I've enjoyed it.
They played and mercy ruled Jenks. They were ranked at the time. I believe West Memphis was also ranked when we beat them in the State Championship game. So that's three counting Evangel.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 01:46:20 pm
Here is the make up of the nineteen on the board:

http://www.ahsaa.org/section.asp?secID=7&mainID=1

Would be interesting to know the three who thought it was a good idea as presented.




From the list of schools, I'd guess there are around 300 voting members of the AAA. 

Who knows if the board is representative of the membership on any given issue.  The board's recommendation would probably carry a tremendous amount of weight for those schools who have no opinion or don't want to be seen as not being part of the "team."
Title: Re: Playoff Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 01:50:45 pm
http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=92135.msg1979822#msg1979822
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 01:58:24 pm
ADG article on the board recomendation (they have a slightly different vote count than AP):  CLICK HERE (http://epaper.ardemgaz.com/Repository/ml.asp?Issue=ArDemocrat/2009/06/10&ID=Ar02302&Mode=H)
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Iwatchtoomuchfootball on June 10, 2009, 02:18:52 pm
The alternative proposal, as I understand it, seems a bit harsh.  As I understand it, if an athlete does not enroll in the private school before 7th grade(9th grade if no middle school grades offered at the private), that athlete would NEVER be eligible to compete at the private school.  If a kid transfers in before his 9th grade year, it seems a bit much to say he could never play sports at the private school.


On the other hand, I think a "redshirt year" for such transfers would have some merit.  If a kid was going to miss the next football season,regardless of the time of year he transferred,  that would have an impact, especially for 9th and 10th graders.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 02:23:20 pm
Quote from: Iwatchtoomuchfootball on June 10, 2009, 02:18:52 pm
The alternative proposal, as I understand it, seems a bit harsh.  As I understand it, if an athlete does not enroll in the private school before 7th grade(9th grade if no middle school grades offered at the private), that athlete would NEVER be eligible to compete at the private school.  

Is that the Catholic/St.Mary's exception?
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Billyo62 on June 10, 2009, 02:25:47 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 02:23:20 pm
Quote from: Iwatchtoomuchfootball on June 10, 2009, 02:18:52 pm
The alternative proposal, as I understand it, seems a bit harsh.  As I understand it, if an athlete does not enroll in the private school before 7th grade(9th grade if no middle school grades offered at the private), that athlete would NEVER be eligible to compete at the private school.   

Is that the Catholic/St.Mary's exception?

Good point..!
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Iwatchtoomuchfootball on June 10, 2009, 02:48:59 pm
I'm not sure if there are any other privates that don't have 7th-8th, but Catholic/St.Marys are the only ones to come to mind. In Pulaski County, I think the other privates have middle schools.

Even for the Catholic/St. Marys kids it would mean potentially being ineligible throughout high school, which seems a bit much to me.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 10, 2009, 03:06:30 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 10, 2009, 09:56:43 am
Quote from: Ty on June 10, 2009, 02:30:23 amDelving into outside sources, Springdale finished 2nd in the nation that season in Cal Preps cumulative ranking system, while Longview finished 56th.

I have little doubt the '05 Sprindale team would have probably beaten Longview. My issue was with those who say it would have been a 30+ point blowout.
I noticed something about the Calpreps '05 ranking. No other Arkansas team was ranked in the top 75. Springdale, as great as they were, didn't play a team ranked in the top 75. As best as I can tell, the only team they played that played a team in the top 75 was Evangel. Longview played at least 3 such teams (Marshall, Lake Highlands, and Evangel.) Now, maybe I'm reaching - - and this discussion could go on and on - - but I do not believe you can assume a 30 point win (or even a 3 touchdown win) based on the information at hand.
It's been a good discussion, though. I've enjoyed it.
Like Olddog said, Jenks was ranked as high as 8th in the nation headed into that game, while Springdale came in around ~15. West Memphis was ranked before the title game.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 03:14:55 pm
Not that I like this rule, but if one private school is given until 9th grade, all schools should.  Whether they have a middle school or not.

I'm not sure we are letting ANY AAA rule fully take affect before we are changing them again. 

How long has the "move em up one class (unless they are Sacred Heart) rule" been in effect. 

How about the rule where every private school has to list how many students are on scholarship and how many play sports, etc ---  Haven't heard that?  Maybe because it only started last Fall.

How about transfers to private school after 9th grade are ineligle for sports for a year?

Let's give them some time and enforce the ones we have.....enforce the ones we have.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 03:49:36 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 03:14:55 pm
Not that I like this rule, but if one private school is given until 9th grade, all schools should.  Whether they have a middle school or not.

I'm not sure we are letting ANY AAA rule fully take affect before we are changing them again. 

How long has the "move em up one class (unless they are Sacred Heart) rule" been in effect. 

How about the rule where every private school has to list how many students are on scholarship and how many play sports, etc ---  Haven't heard that?  Maybe because it only started last Fall.

How about transfers to private school after 9th grade are ineligle for sports for a year?

Let's give them some time and enforce the ones we have.....enforce the ones we have.

I believe the current "move em up one class rule" doesn't apply to schools with less than 75 calculated enrollment.

Crowleys Ridge Academy,
Trinity Christian,
Sacred Heart,
St. Joseph Catholic,
Fayetteville Christian and
Ridgefield Christian all play as 1A schools.

http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/2008-2010%20Reclass%20Numbers.pdf
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: Chris on June 10, 2009, 03:56:04 pm
I like the counter proposal being offered by the AAA board.  Much better than the current one; however I do have one question.  Would students who actually move into the area;(for example from out of state)  would they be subject to the same rule or allowed a waiver.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 03:56:17 pm
St. Joe must play 2A football (Lutheran too)
Those that play soccer must play 3A?

and they play 1A in Basketball and Baseball.?

Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 04:01:31 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 03:56:17 pm
St. Joe must play 2A football (Lutheran too)
Those that play soccer must play 3A?

and they play 1A in Basketball and Baseball.?

St. Joseph High School and St. Joseph Catholic School are two different schools.

Click the link and go down to pages 3 and 4.  An "X" by the school indicates private.

http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/2008-2010%20Reclass%20Numbers.pdf




Soccer may be an exception,  Looks like 4A is the smallest soccer classification and anybody below 4A plays there.  I wouldn't think a school could split classification in the three major sports.

http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/SO_StateBrackets_2009.pdf

Hermitage played soccer at one time as a 2A public school but gave it up due to the travel requirements.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 04:06:46 pm
Shoot we called them both St. Jo.
Title: Re: Private School Proposal
Post by: bleudog on June 10, 2009, 04:17:36 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on June 10, 2009, 04:06:46 pm
Shoot we called them both St. Jo.

I bet the folks in Conway and Pine Bluff do too. ;D

And don't forget the public 1A school in St. Joe, AR. 8)
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 10, 2009, 04:51:10 pm
What was WM ranked?
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 10, 2009, 09:12:29 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 10, 2009, 02:30:23 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 10, 2009, 01:23:48 am
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 06:50:26 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 06:29:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.

Springdale in 05 was the same team basicly that LR Central kicked to sleep in 04. Longview's depth and talent would've pulled a LR Central on Springdale in 05. Mustain would've been running for his life from the Lobo's speed. Damien Williams would've had a harder time of getting open as well. Springdale 05 was good, but Longview was better. By the way that 04 Little Rock Central team was pretty decent but would have problems with Longview as well. The best way to find out who's the best is put the Lobo's on your schedule. Put Gilmore, Lufkin, Tyler or Marshall on you're schedule, Heck Texas High beat the brakes off of Lake Hamilton (6A Champ) last year! Then talked bad about them. Call them up and play one of these teams and find out what EAST TEXAS FOOTBALL is all about.
Springdale '05 was far from the same team that took the field against LR Central. First, and foremost, we're talking about another year of puberty for all of those players, an entire off-season in the weight room, and the added addition of numerous college prospects in the SHS class of '07 (Zach Pianalto, Eric Jones, etc.), who were much more talented in general than the class of '05. The belief that the same team that lost to Central was the one that took the field in '05 is completely idiotic.

Take another Springdale school, Har-Ber. In their first year of varsity action, they were blown out numerous times. A year later, with another year of growth, another year of work in the weight room and the practice field, and the introduction of college prospects (Stephen Needham, Derek Brinker, Zach Faust), they lose in the state finals to a very experienced Fayetteville team.

For what it is worth, the scenario will more than likely repeat itself this upcoming season with SHS. Most of the senior football players have either started or contributed since their sophomore season due to the imbalance of talent after the split of the schools. Add two years of growth, two years of work in the weight room, and an influx in talent in the younger grades (Jospeh Calcagni, Tony Dennis, Mitchell Smothers) and they look as good as a SHS team has since '05.

Put Longview on your schedule..... Then when you lose to them as Evangel has take them off your schedule. As for College Talent in 05, Longview had 17 guys in 05 sign college letters of intent. They would've played Springdale straight up that year.  WHEN THE LONGVIEW LOBO"S CALL OVER TO ARKANSAS for a game the answer is always NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In some years they play Lufkin twice just to fill out the schedule. Put John Outlaw (Arkadelphia HS) and Lufkin on your schedule, they're no slouch either.
See, most people talk back on forth on here, in an argumentative format. You failed to address any of my points, instead, going off on a ramble. I'd like to give you another chance to try and refute at least one of my points without going off on a ramble like you just did.

As for your rant, I checked the Longview football site and it claims that only 5 players signed LOIs in 2005, which is quite a few less than your claim of 17. Which is it? Are you lying or the football website?

Really, there is no need for Springdale, Har-Ber, or anyone in the state to schedule a team all the way from Texas. The NWA region of the state has great access to Tulsa and Oklahoma City with 412 West and the turnpike system in Oklahoma. They can also easily head north to play teams such as Jefferson City and Fort Zumwalt.

Another aspect is the fact that you have consistently made this into an Arkansas vs. Texas argument. No one here is trying to argue the merits of Arkansas vs. Texas HS football; we concede that it is better. The debate settles on just how good of a football team Springdale '05 was and their "hypothetical" game against Longview.

Delving into outside sources, Springdale finished 2nd in the nation that season in Cal Preps cumulative ranking system, while Longview finished 56th.



Your rant was better than mine. Thanks for using Oklahoma as a excuse on not playing a Texas team.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 10, 2009, 09:30:54 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 10, 2009, 09:12:29 pm
Quote from: Ty on June 10, 2009, 02:30:23 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 10, 2009, 01:23:48 am
Quote from: Ty on June 08, 2009, 06:50:26 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 06:29:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 08, 2009, 03:54:31 pm
I agree that Texas football is way ahead of the game compared to Arkansas but that 05 Springdale team, when clicking on all cylinders, was second to none IMO. Comparing scores is not a good way to pad an argument. I wouldn't say by 30 but Springdale would have won by 2-3 touchdowns against Longview. Just too much offensive firepower for most anyone to deal with. That #3 USA Today Super 25 final ranking was no fluke.

Springdale in 05 was the same team basicly that LR Central kicked to sleep in 04. Longview's depth and talent would've pulled a LR Central on Springdale in 05. Mustain would've been running for his life from the Lobo's speed. Damien Williams would've had a harder time of getting open as well. Springdale 05 was good, but Longview was better. By the way that 04 Little Rock Central team was pretty decent but would have problems with Longview as well. The best way to find out who's the best is put the Lobo's on your schedule. Put Gilmore, Lufkin, Tyler or Marshall on you're schedule, Heck Texas High beat the brakes off of Lake Hamilton (6A Champ) last year! Then talked bad about them. Call them up and play one of these teams and find out what EAST TEXAS FOOTBALL is all about.
Springdale '05 was far from the same team that took the field against LR Central. First, and foremost, we're talking about another year of puberty for all of those players, an entire off-season in the weight room, and the added addition of numerous college prospects in the SHS class of '07 (Zach Pianalto, Eric Jones, etc.), who were much more talented in general than the class of '05. The belief that the same team that lost to Central was the one that took the field in '05 is completely idiotic.

Take another Springdale school, Har-Ber. In their first year of varsity action, they were blown out numerous times. A year later, with another year of growth, another year of work in the weight room and the practice field, and the introduction of college prospects (Stephen Needham, Derek Brinker, Zach Faust), they lose in the state finals to a very experienced Fayetteville team.

For what it is worth, the scenario will more than likely repeat itself this upcoming season with SHS. Most of the senior football players have either started or contributed since their sophomore season due to the imbalance of talent after the split of the schools. Add two years of growth, two years of work in the weight room, and an influx in talent in the younger grades (Jospeh Calcagni, Tony Dennis, Mitchell Smothers) and they look as good as a SHS team has since '05.

Put Longview on your schedule..... Then when you lose to them as Evangel has take them off your schedule. As for College Talent in 05, Longview had 17 guys in 05 sign college letters of intent. They would've played Springdale straight up that year.  WHEN THE LONGVIEW LOBO"S CALL OVER TO ARKANSAS for a game the answer is always NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  In some years they play Lufkin twice just to fill out the schedule. Put John Outlaw (Arkadelphia HS) and Lufkin on your schedule, they're no slouch either.
See, most people talk back on forth on here, in an argumentative format. You failed to address any of my points, instead, going off on a ramble. I'd like to give you another chance to try and refute at least one of my points without going off on a ramble like you just did.

As for your rant, I checked the Longview football site and it claims that only 5 players signed LOIs in 2005, which is quite a few less than your claim of 17. Which is it? Are you lying or the football website?

Really, there is no need for Springdale, Har-Ber, or anyone in the state to schedule a team all the way from Texas. The NWA region of the state has great access to Tulsa and Oklahoma City with 412 West and the turnpike system in Oklahoma. They can also easily head north to play teams such as Jefferson City and Fort Zumwalt.

Another aspect is the fact that you have consistently made this into an Arkansas vs. Texas argument. No one here is trying to argue the merits of Arkansas vs. Texas HS football; we concede that it is better. The debate settles on just how good of a football team Springdale '05 was and their "hypothetical" game against Longview.

Delving into outside sources, Springdale finished 2nd in the nation that season in Cal Preps cumulative ranking system, while Longview finished 56th.



Your rant was better than mine. Thanks for using Oklahoma as a excuse on not playing a Texas team.
I mentioned it as purely logistical issue for the school; it's been much cheaper for Springdale to play a home and home with Jenks than travel all the way down to Texas to play a football game.

As for the schools in the SW portion of the state, the situation would be better for the, El Dorado, Nashville, Arkansas High, and Lake Hamilton (though that is not a grouping of the best teams in Arkansas. Too many of them (best teams in the state) reside in the River Valley and Northwest Arkansas to make traveling to Texas on a regular basis feasible.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 10, 2009, 10:45:11 pm
We're hoping for a home-and home with West Monroe in the near future. There are 4 or 5 teams less than 2 hours from El Dorado that would wipe the floor with most of the 7A "unbeatables."
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 10, 2009, 10:46:53 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 10, 2009, 10:45:11 pm
We're hoping for a home-and home with West Monroe in the near future. There are 4 or 5 teams less than 2 hours from El Dorado that would wipe the floor with most of the 7A "unbeatables."
Most people said that Jenks, Fort Zumwat, Jefferson City etc. would do the same. We've yet to see it happen.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 10, 2009, 11:07:48 pm
Go play West Monroe. LOL. They are a fixture in the national rankings. My main point is that El Do doesn't need to go to either Texas or NWA to get quality non-conference competition. North Louisiana has plenty. Much shorter drive.
Title: Re: Playoff Proposal Dead
Post by: parpar on June 11, 2009, 11:08:26 am
It's not over.  Rest assured there are principals that are getting pressured to vote for it despite the do not pass recommendation.  I do think a 2/3 vote is probably out of the question, but I have speculated and been wrong before.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: ppop on June 11, 2009, 01:43:46 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 10, 2009, 11:07:48 pm
Go play West Monroe. LOL. They are a fixture in the national rankings.

Did I mention Longview beat them 21-0 in 2005?  ;)
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 11, 2009, 02:30:33 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 11, 2009, 01:43:46 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 10, 2009, 11:07:48 pm
Go play West Monroe. LOL. They are a fixture in the national rankings.

Did I mention Longview beat them 21-0 in 2005?  ;)

First game of the season that year. 

And now the rest of the story.  West Monroe did manage to recover from that loss.  The Rebels went on to win a Louisisana state championship in '05.

http://www.olerebels.com/content.asp?CID=88052
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 11, 2009, 03:31:53 pm
Quote from: bleudog on June 11, 2009, 02:30:33 pm
Quote from: ppop on June 11, 2009, 01:43:46 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 10, 2009, 11:07:48 pm
Go play West Monroe. LOL. They are a fixture in the national rankings.

Did I mention Longview beat them 21-0 in 2005?  ;)

First game of the season that year. 

And now the rest of the story.  West Monroe did manage to recover from that loss.  The Rebels went on to win a Louisisana state championship in '05.

http://www.olerebels.com/content.asp?CID=88052

Longview was the Louisiana State Champs that year. Beat Evangel the 2005 2A Champs and West Monroe that year.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 11, 2009, 03:37:08 pm
I'm starting to think everyone in Arkansas football is related to Rodney Dangerfield!

[size=8]I just can't get no respect, I tell ya![/size]
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 11, 2009, 03:55:43 pm
West Monroe:

State Championships:  1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2005
State Runner up:  1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008


That's not bad, but look at this one.

John Curtis:

State Championships:  1975, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
State Runner up:  1976, 1982, 1986, 1994, 2000, 2003


Not trying to start a fight or anything, but is there an Arkansas team with 23 state football titles since 1975?


http://winnfieldtigerfootball.com/id115.html
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 11, 2009, 03:59:32 pm
Uh....NO!
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 11, 2009, 04:01:11 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 11, 2009, 03:37:08 pm
I'm starting to think everyone in Arkansas football is related to Rodney Dangerfield!

[size=8]I just can't get no respect, I tell ya![/size]

We're number 20. ;D

http://calpreps.com/2008/ratings/National_states.htm
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 12, 2009, 10:50:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 11, 2009, 03:55:43 pm
West Monroe:

State Championships:  1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2005
State Runner up:  1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008


That's not bad, but look at this one.

John Curtis:

State Championships:  1975, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
State Runner up:  1976, 1982, 1986, 1994, 2000, 2003


Not trying to start a fight or anything, but is there an Arkansas team with 23 state football titles since 1975?


http://winnfieldtigerfootball.com/id115.html

forgot to mention John Curtis is a small (2A in Louisiana-probably a 3A or 4A if in Arkansas) private school that draws its students from the New Orleans metro area.  ::)

Their '08 championship game was a 35-14 win over Evangel in the Superdome.  This was the same Evangel team that defeated Shiloh 47-9 in its season opener. 

Curtis did lose their season opener too.  They went to Texas Stadium in their opener and lost to Texas 5A power Trinity-Euless by a score of 28-12

Sorry QF, but little ol' Curtis is ranked #10 nationally in Maxpreps' preseason ranking.

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/article.aspx?articleid=f01877ad-8b4d-de11-a973-001cc494dda6
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 14, 2009, 03:10:52 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 12, 2009, 10:50:01 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 11, 2009, 03:55:43 pm
West Monroe:

State Championships:  1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2005
State Runner up:  1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008


That's not bad, but look at this one.

John Curtis:

State Championships:  1975, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
State Runner up:  1976, 1982, 1986, 1994, 2000, 2003


Not trying to start a fight or anything, but is there an Arkansas team with 23 state football titles since 1975?


http://winnfieldtigerfootball.com/id115.html

forgot to mention John Curtis is a small (2A in Louisiana-probably a 3A or 4A if in Arkansas) private school that draws its students from the New Orleans metro area.  ::)

Their '08 championship game was a 35-14 win over Evangel in the Superdome.  This was the same Evangel team that defeated Shiloh 47-9 in its season opener. 

Curtis did lose their season opener too.  They went to Texas Stadium in their opener and lost to Texas 5A power Trinity-Euless by a score of 28-12

Sorry QF, but little ol' Curtis is ranked #10 nationally in Maxpreps' preseason ranking.

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/article.aspx?articleid=f01877ad-8b4d-de11-a973-001cc494dda6

You also FAILED to point out Longview Beat them in  2006 or 2007 and couldn't get John Curtis to renew the deal. Just saying....
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 09:08:32 am
That's irrelevant don't you think? Just because a team doesn't renew doesn't mean they are running. That team plays a national NC schedule. I watched them thrash Hoover, AL on national TV a couple of years ago. And QF-Hoover was #1 in the nation when that little private school went to the big, bad public school and pushed them around like bullies on a school playground.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 14, 2009, 09:10:32 am
No 4A Arkansas school deserves a national ranking in football and dang sure not pre-season.  How hard is it to understand that?

Apparantly, pretty hard for some.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 09:13:47 am
That's only one person's opinion. For the most part you are correct. But leave it open for debate if Shiloh flogs Evangel in September. I bet they get strong consideration.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 14, 2009, 09:21:15 am
Spit, spin, twist or polish it, I've stood by the same statement from the begining and it's dang sure accurate.  No 4A team in Arkansas is better than all 16 7A, 16 6A and 32 5A teams in Arkansas.  By ranking any 4A without any of those other 64 in-state schools mentioned being ranked in front of them, is crap.  That's a fact.
Title: *
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 10:19:28 am
So if John Curtis were in our state you would say they were not deserving of a national ranking if they were beating other ranked teams on a regular basis? Like bleudog said they would be 4A in Arkansas.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 14, 2009, 10:19:29 am
Quote from: QF© on June 14, 2009, 09:21:15 am
Spit, spin, twist or polish it, I've stood by the same statement from the begining and it's dang sure accurate.  No 4A team in Arkansas is better than all 16 7A, 16 6A and 32 5A teams in Arkansas.  By ranking any 4A without any of those other 64 in-state schools mentioned being ranked in front of them, is crap.  That's a fact.

QF you are right on this one.  But the "national experts" base their preseason rankings on reputation and margin of win in most cases.  They don't know anything about the other teams playing in the state except the one(s) that went undefeated and had a MOV of 40. 

Was Barton ever "nationally ranked" back in the day?  How about Dollarway or Osceola?   Those three were very good small school teams from here that went on runs. 
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 14, 2009, 10:21:43 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 14, 2009, 10:19:28 am
So if

Stop right there.  Any "IF" is irrelevant to the point.  Goober.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 10:22:28 am
And your post was your opinion. I respect that. But fact? No way. Not today.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 14, 2009, 10:24:17 am
Nope.  Wrong again.  There is not and never will be a 4A team as previously described better than all 64 of those teams. 

Carry on with your ignorance.  I think you can max it out even higher.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 10:32:23 am
You're definitely showing your closed-mindedness. Im outta here 4 now. I'm going to tour the new Cowboys Stadium. Got better things to do
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 14, 2009, 11:07:05 am
Let me know when you a 4A school as currently aligned ranked as the in-state #1 by a reputable poll or system.  If they're not #1 by the people in their own their state......
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 14, 2009, 02:08:30 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 11, 2009, 03:31:53 pm
Longview was the Louisiana State Champs that year. Beat Evangel the 2005 2A Champs and West Monroe that year.

Nothing but respect for the Lobo program.  4A Div I runner up in 2008 and 5A Div I runner up in 1997.

But it's more important for a team to win its last game of the season rather than some non-conference game early in the year.  In 2005, Evangel and West Monroe both won their last games that year, Longview did not.  The last time Longview won its last game of the season looks like 1937.  Maybe the Lobos can change that in 2009.  Best of luck to them in the effort.

To get back on thread (sort of), I would think a 4A team in Arkansas could be nationally ranked.  Not necessarily #1, not necessarily above other teams in the state and not necessarily this year.   But still nationally ranked.

My earlier references to John Curtis was informational.  Most folks on this board are familiar with Evangel primarily based on them beating the crap out of Shiloh last year.  Evangel is not the preeminent football private school in Louisiana, Curtis is.  Again 23 state titles since 1975.  Drawing from the New Orleans metro area can have its advantages.

John Curtis is a 2A school in a state where 5A is the top.  Curtis was considered the third best football team in Louisiana in 2008 behind Destrahan and West Monroe, both 5A schools.  All three of those teams were worthy of a national ranking.  Certainly not 1-2-3, but definitely Top 100, possibly Top 50 or even Top 25.

Based on Longview's performance in 2008, they could have easily been consider better than the three top teams in Louisiana in any hypothetical poll.

Maybe one year there will be a small private school in Arkansas, 3 classes down from the top classification, that can capitalize on its advantages the way John Curtis has. ;)

Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 14, 2009, 02:13:28 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 14, 2009, 10:32:23 am
..........I'm going to tour the new Cowboys Stadium.......

Let us know what you think of the Arlington Palace.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 02:52:29 pm
Looks like it may be tomorrow b4 I get to go bleu. I'm at this frickin aquarium chaperoning 13 Girl Scouts. 3 of them are my own kids. The last tour at the stadium starts at 4.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 14, 2009, 02:55:00 pm
Quote from: bleudog on June 14, 2009, 02:08:30 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 11, 2009, 03:31:53 pm
Longview was the Louisiana State Champs that year. Beat Evangel the 2005 2A Champs and West Monroe that year.

Nothing but respect for the Lobo program.  4A Div I runner up in 2008 and 5A Div I runner up in 1997.

But it's more important for a team to win its last game of the season rather than some non-conference game early in the year.  In 2005, Evangel and West Monroe both won their last games that year, Longview did not.  The last time Longview won its last game of the season looks like 1937.  Maybe the Lobos can change that in 2009.  Best of luck to them in the effort.

To get back on thread (sort of), I would think a 4A team in Arkansas could be nationally ranked.  Not necessarily #1, not necessarily above other teams in the state and not necessarily this year.   But still nationally ranked.

My earlier references to John Curtis was informational.  Most folks on this board are familiar with Evangel primarily based on them beating the crap out of Shiloh last year.  Evangel is not the preeminent football private school in Louisiana, Curtis is.  Again 23 state titles since 1975.  Drawing from the New Orleans metro area can have its advantages.

John Curtis is a 2A school in a state where 5A is the top.  Curtis was considered the third best football team in Louisiana in 2008 behind Destrahan and West Monroe, both 5A schools.  All three of those teams were worthy of a national ranking.  Certainly not 1-2-3, but definitely Top 100, possibly Top 50 or even Top 25.

Based on Longview's performance in 2008, they could have easily been consider better than the three top teams in Louisiana in any hypothetical poll.

Maybe one year there will be a small private school in Arkansas, 3 classes down from the top classification, that can capitalize on its advantages the way John Curtis has. ;)



NO NO NO !!!!  It is always important to win PERIOD !!!!! As for a Private School in Arkansas doing what JC does, it's a different type of talent in Arkansas. That's why Shiloh, CAC and PA can pull off what they do. Evangel showed Shiloh last year the difference. Then the very next Friday Longview hung 50 on Evangel showing them a different level.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 14, 2009, 02:59:24 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 14, 2009, 09:08:32 am
That's irrelevant don't you think? Just because a team doesn't renew doesn't mean they are running. That team plays a national NC schedule. I watched them thrash Hoover, AL on national TV a couple of years ago. And QF-Hoover was #1 in the nation when that little private school went to the big, bad public school and pushed them around like bullies on a school playground.

When you lose at Longview and wont honor a game at your place the next year on the contract. Ahhh.... yea that's running. They knew the Lobo's were gonna be deep the next year. So drop them and move on. Evangel did the same thing. Flat out said... we dont need to play teams like Longview this early in the season.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 14, 2009, 03:23:56 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 14, 2009, 02:52:29 pm
Looks like it may be tomorrow b4 I get to go bleu. I'm at this frickin aquarium chaperoning 13 Girl Scouts. 3 of them are my own kids. The last tour at the stadium starts at 4.

At least you'll miss the Ranger traffic tommorrow.  They're down 4-3 to the Dodgers in the 5th right now.

Enjoy today's outing while you can.  Things like those are over all too quickly.

You going to be in town long enough to take the young ladies to the Astros-Rangers game?
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 14, 2009, 04:28:59 pm
Doubt it. Gotta return to Hot Springs tomorrow. Gotta get back to the grind. Lol.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 15, 2009, 04:43:22 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.


What? So you are telling me that in 2005 The Springdale Bulldogs should have NEVER been ranked in the top 100 in the country? Even when they pimp slapped Evangel " another top 100 team at the time ",
even beating Tulsa(Jenks) who was another team that was ranked in the nations top 100. USA today called these two programs Quote  "two of the Mid-South's two best programs ". Are you saying didn't deserve a National ranking? Just because we are little ole Arkansas douse not mean that we don't have talented athletes in our state, and that goes for any classification. No offense when I say this but your comment was pure ignorance at its best! 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 15, 2009, 06:01:28 am
I agree with this " outsiders " opinion. I am from a small town in Arkansas by the name of Mountainburg. Our population to date is 682. We had to play Shiloh a number of times and for the most part we got our rear's beaten in except for one JR high game where we only lost by 4 points and had to share the conference title with them. And not one time in all of the times we played them did we ever cry about the competition( because they had a lot more talent then than we did ). Now here you have the town of Berryville that has a population to date of 4,433( a town that's a lot bigger than Mountainburg) complaining about Shiloh running the score up on them. They did it to us too!!!! All because you get the crap beat out of you by a better team you want to move them from the post season so you will have a chance to go forward in that post season, that is pathetic! The city of Berryville should be ashamed of their administrators. You can't blame every private school because one ran up the score on you. Shiloh is a very competitive school, that is who you want to play. Shiloh doesn't win state every year so don't tell me that they bully all of the public schools around.   
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: bombs away on June 15, 2009, 09:57:04 am
Worse than that, you have Tommy Tice from Harrison crying about it.  A couple of years ago after getting beat by Greenwood, he claimed the Bulldogs created a pipeline of players coming in from the south part of Ft Smith.  The man just needs to get to work coaching a bit more and worry less about what everyone else is doing.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Baitshop on June 15, 2009, 06:44:59 pm
Quote from: benchball on June 09, 2009, 09:24:40 am
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/SharpTusk/191373

WOW


I didn't know Joshy had his own blog.........??
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 16, 2009, 02:29:09 am
That was a pretty pathetic article... Everything from manipulated quotes to making fun of 16-18 year olds. I'm sure he feels like a big man.


The AAA has a responsibility to create fair play (per their rulebook) to all teams under their governing body, and it is time they did something accordingly.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 16, 2009, 02:38:30 am
Quote from: nwarkboyz#1 on June 15, 2009, 04:43:22 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.


What? So you are telling me that in 2005 The Springdale Bulldogs should have NEVER been ranked in the top 100 in the country? Even when they pimp slapped Evangel " another top 100 team at the time ",
even beating Tulsa(Jenks) who was another team that was ranked in the nations top 100. USA today called these two programs Quote  "two of the Mid-South's two best programs ". Are you saying didn't deserve a National ranking? Just because we are little ole Arkansas douse not mean that we don't have talented athletes in our state, and that goes for any classification. No offense when I say this but your comment was pure ignorance at its best! 

Once again that Evangel Squad wasn't that good in 05. Yet they won the Louisiana 2A State Title with 4 losses that year. Springdale was very very good in 05. But Springdale could've lost to a team with equal talent.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 16, 2009, 03:53:38 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 16, 2009, 02:38:30 am
Quote from: nwarkboyz#1 on June 15, 2009, 04:43:22 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 08:00:04 am
Quote from: QF© on June 07, 2009, 06:50:56 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 07, 2009, 02:00:20 am
Quote from: QF© on June 06, 2009, 11:00:19 am
To be clear, no 4A school in Arkansas is ever deserving of a national ranking.

But it's cool for a 7A school from Arkansas to be ranked and noted as such nationally ?
::)

Roll your eyes until your hair curls. But following your logic NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that.


What? So you are telling me that in 2005 The Springdale Bulldogs should have NEVER been ranked in the top 100 in the country? Even when they pimp slapped Evangel " another top 100 team at the time ",
even beating Tulsa(Jenks) who was another team that was ranked in the nations top 100. USA today called these two programs Quote  "two of the Mid-South's two best programs ". Are you saying didn't deserve a National ranking? Just because we are little ole Arkansas douse not mean that we don't have talented athletes in our state, and that goes for any classification. No offense when I say this but your comment was pure ignorance at its best! 

Once again that Evangel Squad wasn't that good in 05. Yet they won the Louisiana 2A State Title with 4 losses that year. Springdale was very very good in 05. But Springdale could've lost to a team with equal talent.

Well of coarse Springdale could have lost to a team that was an equal talent, that goes for any team. But that is not what I brought into question you said " NO school from Arkansas regardless of the classification should ever be ranked nationally.... and I agree with that. " I do believe with 5 D1 recruits playing on the offense and a very good defense they deserved to be Ranked in the top 100! Evangel may have been a bad team that year but Sprigdale sure as heck wasn't.   
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 16, 2009, 04:09:56 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 16, 2009, 02:29:09 am
That was a pretty pathetic article... Everything from manipulated quotes to making fun of 16-18 year olds. I'm sure he feels like a big man.


The AAA has a responsibility to create fair play (per their rulebook) to all teams under their governing body, and it is time they did something accordingly.


What's pathetic is Schools like Berryville and Harrison complaining about their sorry efforts against a team that came to play. Like I have said in a previous post, the town a played football in was a lot smaller then Berryville and win or loose, at the end of the game if we played our best then we had nothing to complain about. How about Risen and Charleston get took out to because they are always good and we can never beat them, and heck while you're at it make Bonneville make the switch to 7a as well because they are usually better than everybody too! You can't make a private school play in a playoff of their own because they are better then you. If that were to happen you would end up doing everything that I sarcastically just said! I say they make Harrison and Berryville have their own little playoff each year to see who wins the Annual " pitty potty " trophy...lol.. But hey that's just me.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 16, 2009, 04:53:43 am
Quote from: nwarkboyz#1 on June 16, 2009, 04:09:56 amHow about Risen and Charleston get took out to because they are always good and we can never beat them, and heck while you're at it make Bonneville make the switch to 7a as well because they are usually better than everybody too!

It's not a "they're too good" it's that they're too good with an unfair advantage. No one cried when Nashville 3-peated to move them up, so your point is already invalid.

Booneville, Rison, and Charleston don't draw from the largest metro areas in the state of Arkansas like every single private school does. Combine that with no boundary lines, and the AAA lacking the ability to pull accurate records with legal stipulations behind them, and you've got you're unfair advantage. That being said, I would never vote to remove Shiloh from 4a under either of the proposed actions. Neither one of them are fair to a private school.

I do have a feeling after the whole "move Booneville to 7a" comment, that you'll just never get it, so my efforts of logic will be in vain.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 16, 2009, 07:00:58 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 16, 2009, 04:53:43 am
Quote from: nwarkboyz#1 on June 16, 2009, 04:09:56 amHow about Risen and Charleston get took out to because they are always good and we can never beat them, and heck while you're at it make Bonneville make the switch to 7a as well because they are usually better than everybody too!

It's not a "they're too good" it's that they're too good with an unfair advantage. No one cried when Nashville 3-peated to move them up, so your point is already invalid.

Booneville, Rison, and Charleston don't draw from the largest metro areas in the state of Arkansas like every single private school does. Combine that with no boundary lines, and the AAA lacking the ability to pull accurate records with legal stipulations behind them, and you've got you're unfair advantage. That being said, I would never vote to remove Shiloh from 4a under either of the proposed actions. Neither one of them are fair to a private school.

I do have a feeling after the whole "move Booneville to 7a" comment, that you'll just never get it, so my efforts of logic will be in vain.

If you read would I wrote I plainly said I was being sarcastic about Risen, Charleston and Boonville moving up. I was making a point that just because you are good douse not mean you should keep moving up conference. If Berryville wants to moron about the score getting run up on them by a better team, then Maybe they should be begging to be put down a conference. If you saw that game you would see that they plainly put their self's away. If they want some room to complain then they should be like Mountainburg " the school I graduated from " and have only 600 people in your town and play Shiloh! I just don't see any reason to make Shiloh play different teams in the playoffs. To me that just means that Berryville is saying " we don't care if you stomp us in the regular season but we want to have a chance in the playoffs! " That's pathetic!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on June 16, 2009, 07:09:46 am
Let me be clear, I have  advocated a performance based classification, and Nashville, like Shiloh is not placed in the proper Classification.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 16, 2009, 07:21:57 am
But you can't classify them on how they do year to year! If you do that then you will see teams that will drop off and start getting beat like theses teams like Berryville, and now you haven't fixed the problem you have ran into the same thing. The way they have it now isn't perfect but I agree 100% that it works the best!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on June 16, 2009, 07:55:01 am
No, they won't get beat like Berryville.  That takes a "special" talent and coaching staff.

If Berryville dropped down a class.  I would NOT!! (sorry) expect them to go 10 - 0.  They'd be 7 -3 or 6 - 4 and possibly make it to the first round of the playoffs.  Dropping from 4A to 3A would guarantee them success, just let them win a few.

Conversely, moving Nashville up to 5A, even with talent dropping, wouldn't result in a 0 - 10, probably a 6 - 4 record, unless they stepped up like Shiloh.

Yeah you might go 7 - 3 on year, and 3 = 7 the next, but persistent domination or cellar dwelling isn't right either..
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: stina_ar on June 16, 2009, 07:56:45 am
nwark, maybe you should focus a bit more on what you're writing and a bit less on worrying about "pity potty(??) trophy" games.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 09:14:53 am
Unfair advantage my ARSE! BEAT THEM ON THE FIELD! Glen Rose (PUBLIC SCHOOL YOU WHINERS) beat Shiloh in WMS for the 07 3A title. You need to buy a house in Berryville and join the rest of the whiners. Apparently their kids would rather sit around the pool in the summer instead of doing what it takes to beat them.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 16, 2009, 09:27:35 am
Kids and coaches need to find a way to win.  Do what is necessary to put a product on the field that can compete.  Whining is NOT how its down, getting some guts is.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 09:32:21 am
Evangel was not a bad team that year. They went 10-4 and won the state title.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: FilmCrew on June 16, 2009, 11:01:09 am
Glenn Rose is a bad example of "Stepping Up".  If you look where some of the kids were from that year you will find some of them lived in Malvern.  Now with the laws in place like they are, They have to go back to that school.  They didn't step up, they recruited....
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 03:52:37 pm
3 kids on that team actually lived in Malvern. So that's weak too. But it's still a public school that beat mighty Shiloh as a heavy dog.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 16, 2009, 04:21:03 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 16, 2009, 09:32:21 am
Evangel was not a bad team that year. They went 10-4 and won the state title.

They were not the Evangel of the Josh Booty Era. They won 2A with 5A Talent and not much of that. Ramoan Broadway of the Hogs was on that team. The starting QB was a x safety who wasn't your normal Evangel QB. Longview beat the Brakes off of them the week after Springdale beat them.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 16, 2009, 04:23:07 pm
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 16, 2009, 04:21:03 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 16, 2009, 09:32:21 am
Evangel was not a bad team that year. They went 10-4 and won the state title.

They were not the Evangel of the Josh Booty Era. They won 2A with 5A Talent and not much of that. Ramoan Broadway of the Hogs was on that team. The starting QB was a x safety who wasn't your normal Evangel QB. Longview beat the Brakes off of them the week after Springdale beat them.
It's a little difficult to compare any team to the John Booty era Evangel, you think?

Springdale played their worst game of the year and beat the brakes off them too. Anything you can do I can do better.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Quite Frankly on June 16, 2009, 04:27:04 pm
If they were in Shiloh's district, it's debateable how many of those players would have been on the GR team.  ;)
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 04:38:46 pm
Of course they weren't the Booty teams. But a post said that that 05 team was a "bad" team that S'dale beat. I was just pointing out that 10-4 and a state title in Louisiana isn't a "bad" team.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: FilmCrew on June 16, 2009, 05:53:41 pm
The fact still remains however how weak it was, that they had kids that didn't belong at their school. And the fact still remains that if Shiloh was across the street they could still be going there and not have to go back to Malvern. The system is not working..

Three studs from wherever is still three studs that you can win a state title with.....
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 06:43:07 pm
You're reaching. Just like anyone else that gets owned on here. Now for thd dagger: only one of them started and it wasn't every game. The fact still remains that a public school did what they should do instead of whine-they beat them. And we have school choice. If my son moves to Hot Springs with me he has said if he plays ball he will not play for Cutter Morning Star (across the street). He'll be at Lake Hamilton. Kid wants a chance at a title. What's the difference?
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 16, 2009, 09:23:30 pm
Recruiting and kids playing at a school different than the district they live in happens all the time. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 10:14:54 pm
Exactly.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: AAAspectator on June 16, 2009, 11:29:25 pm
Drive by Shiloh any morning around 8:30-9:00 and you'll see
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 16, 2009, 11:53:55 pm
What I meant was that a kid can basically go to any public school he wishes. Privates shouldn't be singled out.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 17, 2009, 12:56:37 am
Quote from: bobcat on June 16, 2009, 07:56:45 am
nwark, maybe you should focus a bit more on what you're writing and a bit less on worrying about "pity potty(??) trophy" games.

I'm sorry " bobcat" your school must whine every year about getting beat by Shiloh too. Who is your high school and I will add them too the Pity Potty playoffs for the 1st annual Pity Potty trophy! If Berryville thinks that the competition is too much for them then instead complaining about it then maybe they should just not have a football program, they have nobody to blame for their sorry football play but them self's!
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 17, 2009, 02:20:56 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 16, 2009, 04:38:46 pm
Of course they weren't the Booty teams. But a post said that that 05 team was a "bad" team that S'dale beat. I was just pointing out that 10-4 and a state title in Louisiana isn't a "bad" team.

You'd have to see that team. What Longview did to them was ugly!!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: stina_ar on June 17, 2009, 03:23:35 am
Them self's?   Really? Do you see my point yet?                                                                                                                      Just to clear this up, I am not affiliated with any school. I just happen to enjoy football and since I played in what used to be 1-3A (and became 1-4A my junior year), I pay closest attention to 1-AAAA.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: nwarkboyz#1 on June 17, 2009, 05:13:01 am
Quote from: bobcat on June 17, 2009, 03:23:35 am
Them self's?   Really? Do you see my point yet?                                                                                                                      Just to clear this up, I am not affiliated with any school. I just happen to enjoy football and since I played in what used to be 1-3A (and became 1-4A my junior year), I pay closest attention to 1-AAAA.

And I played at Mountainburg when they were in the 1-AA, I had to play against Shiloh and they beat us pretty good a couple of times. When I was in the ninth grade we lost to them only by four points and had to share the conference title with them. That same year our senior high played them( with Gus coaching at the time) and were only down 13-0 at the half, they went on to win the game but we did play a pretty hard game. So I know a little bit about playing Shiloh as well. If Berryville gets what they want it will be ten times more embarrassing then getting the score ran up on them, and that is playing the competition. Like I have said in previous post, if they want a better shot of winning then they should have begged the Arkansas athletics association to let them move down a conference, not kick a team out of the playoffs just because they are better. To me that is just plain pathetic!       
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 17, 2009, 05:16:10 am
+1
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 01:26:19 pm
Wouldn't it be great if you only had 1 team to beat every year in your conference to be the best, and if you just can't beat them then win all your other games , go 9-1, get in the playoffs and hopefully someone else will knock that team out.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: transplant on June 17, 2009, 01:42:47 pm
Or just be in a conference where 75% of the teams make the playoffs.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: ricepig on June 17, 2009, 01:50:54 pm
Or wait two years, then 100% of us make the play-offs.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 01:56:23 pm
Quote from: transplant on June 17, 2009, 01:42:47 pm
Or just be in a conference where 75% of the teams make the playoffs.

Nobody likes the stupid way that 6A and 7A are set up, but all you have to do is finish 2nd in your conference to $hiloh and you are in.  Go 9-1 a couple of years in a row and then complain about getting beat up by $hiloh!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: transplant on June 17, 2009, 02:26:46 pm
Why do you think everyone in crying, are you a closet crier? 

Are you crying about the mean ol' Triple A watering down your playoffs? 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 02:35:54 pm
Quote from: transplant on June 17, 2009, 02:26:46 pm
Why do you think everyone in crying, are you a closet crier? 

Are you crying about the mean ol' Triple A watering down your playoffs? 

Not crying, I  just think it's stupid, but if you go 12-1 and win a state title it doesn't really matter how many teams were in the playoffs does it!

Wait till everyone in 6A and 7A make the playoffs, you will see some 73-3 first round games.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: ricepig on June 17, 2009, 03:07:02 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 02:35:54 pm
Quote from: transplant on June 17, 2009, 02:26:46 pm
Why do you think everyone in crying, are you a closet crier? 

Are you crying about the mean ol' Triple A watering down your playoffs? 

I'll take some of that, too much class and respect for their peers to see that, maybe 49-0.

Not crying, I  just think it's stupid, but if you go 12-1 and win a state title it doesn't really matter how many teams were in the playoffs does it!

Wait till everyone in 6A and 7A make the playoffs, you will see some 73-3 first round games.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 03:11:39 pm
Quote from: ricepig on June 17, 2009, 03:07:02 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 02:35:54 pm
Quote from: transplant on June 17, 2009, 02:26:46 pm
Why do you think everyone in crying, are you a closet crier? 

Are you crying about the mean ol' Triple A watering down your playoffs? 

I'll take some of that, too much class and respect for their peers to see that, maybe 49-0.

Not crying, I  just think it's stupid, but if you go 12-1 and win a state title it doesn't really matter how many teams were in the playoffs does it!

Wait till everyone in 6A and 7A make the playoffs, you will see some 73-3 first round games.

You are probably correct , you don't see that as often with the Big programs.  ;D
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 19, 2009, 01:29:54 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 17, 2009, 02:35:54 pm
Quote from: transplant on June 17, 2009, 02:26:46 pm
Why do you think everyone in crying, are you a closet crier? 

Are you crying about the mean ol' Triple A watering down your playoffs? 

Not crying, I  just think it's stupid, but if you go 12-1 and win a state title it doesn't really matter how many teams were in the playoffs does it!

...which is 100% irrelevant from transplants original point

Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 16, 2009, 09:14:53 am
Unfair advantage my ARSE! BEAT THEM ON THE FIELD! Glen Rose (PUBLIC SCHOOL YOU WHINERS) beat Shiloh in WMS for the 07 3A title. You need to buy a house in Berryville and join the rest of the whiners. Apparently their kids would rather sit around the pool in the summer instead of doing what it takes to beat them.

Come on... You're really going to make the point that Berryville has (approximately) the same access to an equal talent base as Shiloh Christian? Shiloh Christian's talent base IS northwest Arkansas... Now let me be clear, I don't believe that there is full-fledged recruiting from anyone but parent to parent (but that happens at LOTS of other schools) but the fact is, their NAME recruits for them. It's a good, Christian education, with a great football team, and an up-and-coming baseball team. What good, Christian, marginally affluent athlete in NWA wouldn't want to go there? That doesn't make it their fault that kids want to come there, in fact, it doesn't make it their fault at all. It's just that their location allows for the cream of the crop, thus creating an unfair advantage.

Oh, and whoever made the point about the Glen Rose got kids from Malvern point has probably never seen how close the two places are. I can say with reasonable certainty that there are at least 3 people living in the Glen Rose school district that are going to Malvern. I mean, the point isn't bad in principle, but they're just too geographically close to prove anything.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on June 19, 2009, 06:37:31 am
So kids living in Glen Rose can choose to go to school in Malvern
Malvern kids can choose to go to Glen Rose.
Marianna kids can choose to go to Barton
Dierks kids can go to Nashville

and what is Shiloh's problem.......oh.....people actually want to go there.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: FilmCrew on June 19, 2009, 09:00:06 am
Maybe everyone is missing my point....

YOU don't have school choice in Malvern...YOU can't go to Glen Rose if you are white because of the racial balance... Read up on the court case that is going on there right now. It didn't just affect Glen Rose it affected other small schools around there as well. Kids that have went to these other schools from kindergarden are having to return to Malvern because that's where they live.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: bleudog on June 19, 2009, 09:29:40 am
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.

Yeah it's funny to read the Arkansas 6A Div I folks argue that an Arkansas 6A Div II or lower school could never compete with them because of roster size and depth of talent, but then they turn around and think that doesn't apply to them when they hypothetically face one of the Texas mega-schools. 

Hey Mob, how many high schools in Texas are bigger than Longview?
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 19, 2009, 10:29:54 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 19, 2009, 09:29:40 am
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.

Yeah it's funny to read the Arkansas 6A Div I folks argue that an Arkansas 6A Div II or lower school could never compete with them because of roster size and depth of talent, but then they turn around and think that doesn't apply to them when they hypothetically face one of the Texas mega-schools. 

Hey Mob, how many high schools in Texas are bigger than Longview?
That's incorrect.

Most 7A (What is 6A DI? I searched the AAA website and couldn't find anything about it?) fans aren't delusional enough to believe we can compete with the cream of the crop in Texas. Every once in a while, a team like Springdale '05 comes along that can compete with anyone in the nation and that's backed up by NUMEROUS professional organizations. It's not as if VYPE ranked them 24th in the nation and then failed to rank them at all in the state pool.

Like I said in another thread, the point is moot. There's no incentive for 7A schools to travel down to south Arkansas and beat the 6 schools by 20 plus when they travel to Tulsa, Missouri, and face Greenwood, etc.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: ricepig on June 19, 2009, 10:30:20 am
Quote from: FilmCrew on June 19, 2009, 09:00:06 am
Maybe everyone is missing my point....

YOU don't have school choice in Malvern...YOU can't go to Glen Rose if you are white because of the racial balance... Read up on the court case that is going on there right now. It didn't just affect Glen Rose it affected other small schools around there as well. Kids that have went to these other schools from kindergarden are having to return to Malvern because that's where they live.

John may read. but he never comprehends what he reads, he just responds with the way it fits his agenda.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 19, 2009, 10:57:30 am
Likewise-no incentive for us to go on a 5 hour boring-arse bus ride to NWA when we can play BETTER teams less than two hours away. Hope Reed can get it done.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 19, 2009, 11:00:00 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 19, 2009, 10:57:30 am
Likewise-no incentive for us to go on a 5 hour boring-arse bus ride to NWA when we can play BETTER teams less than two hours away. Hope Reed can get it done.
If you want to make the claim that you're the best in the state, you have to beat the best in the state.

Right now, those teams are all within 50 miles of each other. By choosing not to play them, you're choosing to not play the best competition in the state.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on June 19, 2009, 01:18:53 pm
Quote from: FilmCrew on June 19, 2009, 09:00:06 am
Maybe everyone is missing my point....

YOU don't have school choice in Malvern...YOU can't go to Glen Rose if you are white because of the racial balance... Read up on the court case that is going on there right now. It didn't just affect Glen Rose it affected other small schools around there as well. Kids that have went to these other schools from kindergarden are having to return to Malvern because that's where they live.

That is racism,  maybe the Black doctor that finished last in his class will operate on your son's brain, because it's his turn for equality,  blacks on monday Whites on Tuesday...  to make sure all the surgeons get equal time!
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 19, 2009, 01:41:38 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 19, 2009, 10:57:30 am
Likewise-no incentive for us to go on a 5 hour boring-arse bus ride to NWA when we can play BETTER teams less than two hours away. Hope Reed can get it done.

Then Why would a Team From St. Louis ( Avg 55pts a game )  drive 6+ hours to play Bentonville, when there is plenty of competition within 1 hour.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 19, 2009, 01:56:58 pm
Why should El Do have to drive that far? There are 3 teams less than 2 hrs from there that have been nationally ranked at one time or another (Bastrop, West Monroe and Evangel) recently. From what I've been told the 7A West schools that would be worth a drive have contractual obligations. We ain't backing down from anyone so you can drop that rubbish.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 19, 2009, 02:41:05 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on June 19, 2009, 01:56:58 pm
Why should El Do have to drive that far? There are 3 teams less than 2 hrs from there that have been nationally ranked at one time or another (Bastrop, West Monroe and Evangel) recently. From what I've been told the 7A West schools that would be worth a drive have contractual obligations. We ain't backing down from anyone so you can drop that rubbish.

I'm just saying, don't pound your chest and claim to be KONG, when you can play teams but you don't!

You are 6A...  may be great .... maybe ...we'll never know!
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 19, 2009, 04:18:31 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on June 19, 2009, 01:18:53 pm
Quote from: FilmCrew on June 19, 2009, 09:00:06 am
Maybe everyone is missing my point....

YOU don't have school choice in Malvern...YOU can't go to Glen Rose if you are white because of the racial balance... Read up on the court case that is going on there right now. It didn't just affect Glen Rose it affected other small schools around there as well. Kids that have went to these other schools from kindergarden are having to return to Malvern because that's where they live.

That is racism,  maybe the Black doctor that finished last in his class will operate on your son's brain, because it's his turn for equality,  blacks on monday Whites on Tuesday...  to make sure all the surgeons get equal time!

the same thing happens in PCSSD.  If you are white you can transfer to certain schools but not others.  If you are Black you can transfer to certain schools but not others.  It's called desegregation, can't have too many of one color at one school. 
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: FilmCrew on June 19, 2009, 05:03:41 pm
So, Do you really have school choice?

No.

Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: gatecrasher on June 19, 2009, 06:43:45 pm
My kid does. If he moves here he's going to Lake Hamilton. Not Cutter. Can't say I blame him either.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: gatecrasher on June 19, 2009, 06:55:02 pm
We'll play anyone. I know we've been in contact with Southside. I ain't pounding my chest. I said we will play anyone.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 19, 2009, 08:49:46 pm
Quote from: FilmCrew on June 19, 2009, 05:03:41 pm
So, Do you really have school choice?

No.




yes

white kids I know from Jax and/or NP have transferred to NP, NLR, Central, and Parkview

black kids I know from Jax and/or NP have transferred to SH, NP, Jax, and Parkview

someone in Jax
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Hoghead on June 20, 2009, 03:58:22 am
Quote from: Ty on June 19, 2009, 10:29:54 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 19, 2009, 09:29:40 am
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.

Yeah it's funny to read the Arkansas 6A Div I folks argue that an Arkansas 6A Div II or lower school could never compete with them because of roster size and depth of talent, but then they turn around and think that doesn't apply to them when they hypothetically face one of the Texas mega-schools. 

Hey Mob, how many high schools in Texas are bigger than Longview?
That's incorrect.

Most 7A (What is 6A DI? I searched the AAA website and couldn't find anything about it?) fans aren't delusional enough to believe we can compete with the cream of the crop in Texas. Every once in a while, a team like Springdale '05 comes along that can compete with anyone in the nation and that's backed up by NUMEROUS professional organizations. It's not as if VYPE ranked them 24th in the nation and then failed to rank them at all in the state pool.

Like I said in another thread, the point is moot. There's no incentive for 7A schools to travel down to south Arkansas and beat the 6 schools by 20 plus when they travel to Tulsa, Missouri, and face Greenwood, etc.


Missouri.... There aint nothing in SW Missouri to give 7A West schools that much of challenge.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Ty on June 20, 2009, 04:11:42 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 20, 2009, 03:58:22 am
Quote from: Ty on June 19, 2009, 10:29:54 am
Quote from: bleudog on June 19, 2009, 09:29:40 am
Quote from: ppop on June 08, 2009, 10:03:20 am
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 08, 2009, 08:58:09 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 07:27:47 am
Quote from: QF© on June 08, 2009, 07:18:57 am
Quote from: Hoghead, Fearless Friday's Mob Boss! on June 08, 2009, 02:08:52 am
So just like the 4A schools in Arkansas should never be ranked Nationally, the same can be said about the 7A schools.
Absurd.  From time to time the best team in this state from 7A very well could deserve it.


You give me Springdale Har-Ber, Bentonville and Fayetteville and I'll take them to 4A Longview, Texas and they will wipe the floor with all 3.  Longview has tried for 3 years to get the best Arkansas School to play them. No is the answer they get each year.

When Mitch Mustain was quarterback, Longview would have been beaten by 30+. They're good, but they're not THAT good.
Wasn't that 2005? Longview was 10-1, with wins over Marshall, West Monroe, Evangel (52-14, I don't remember how bad Springdale beat them that year), Tyler Lee, and John Tyler. They lost to South Garland 14-13 in the first round of the playoffs. They followed those years up with 9-3, 12-2, and 13-3.
I don't like Longview, but no way Mitch and Co. would have beaten them by 30+ in '05.

Yeah it's funny to read the Arkansas 6A Div I folks argue that an Arkansas 6A Div II or lower school could never compete with them because of roster size and depth of talent, but then they turn around and think that doesn't apply to them when they hypothetically face one of the Texas mega-schools. 

Hey Mob, how many high schools in Texas are bigger than Longview?
That's incorrect.

Most 7A (What is 6A DI? I searched the AAA website and couldn't find anything about it?) fans aren't delusional enough to believe we can compete with the cream of the crop in Texas. Every once in a while, a team like Springdale '05 comes along that can compete with anyone in the nation and that's backed up by NUMEROUS professional organizations. It's not as if VYPE ranked them 24th in the nation and then failed to rank them at all in the state pool.

Like I said in another thread, the point is moot. There's no incentive for 7A schools to travel down to south Arkansas and beat the 6 schools by 20 plus when they travel to Tulsa, Missouri, and face Greenwood, etc.


Missouri.... There aint nothing in SW Missouri to give 7A West schools that much of challenge.
No one said there was. Other than Rogers, most 7A-West schools play schools further north, like Jefferson City and Fort Zumwalt.
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: powerlifter90 on June 21, 2009, 08:53:35 am
The top 3 or 4 7A schools in Ark would beat ANY 6A school.  But, schools from Texas, OK, and LA of EQUAL enrollment would beat those Ark 7A schools. 

Until you see better you think what you have is the best.  To get better you have to play the best competition you can find.  Learn from your wins and losses and get better, nobody is ever "good enough".  Losers settle, winners strive forward..........
Title: Re: Arkansas Teams Considered For National Ranking
Post by: Billyo62 on June 21, 2009, 10:46:21 am
Quote from: BUGEATERS on June 21, 2009, 08:53:35 am
The top 3 or 4 7A schools in Ark would beat ANY 6A school.  But, schools from Texas, OK, and LA of EQUAL enrollment would beat those Ark 7A schools. 

Until you see better you think what you have is the best.  To get better you have to play the best competition you can find.  Learn from your wins and losses and get better, nobody is ever "good enough".  Losers settle, winners strive forward..........

That is exactly the point I have been trying to make, people in the 6A think the top 3-5 7A schools are the same as they were 5-10 years ago,  they are much bigger and much better, but then again 7A compared to schools of the same size in Texas would struggle.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 22, 2009, 07:12:25 am
Quote from: johnharrison on June 19, 2009, 06:37:31 am
So kids living in Glen Rose can choose to go to school in Malvern
Malvern kids can choose to go to Glen Rose.
Marianna kids can choose to go to Barton
Dierks kids can go to Nashville

and what is Shiloh's problem.......oh.....people actually want to go there.

That's a stretch from what I was saying, and you know it.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on June 22, 2009, 07:19:33 am
I'm telling you that you can look at the roster of 4 outta 6 championship teams EVERY year and see a couple of blue chippers, who until 2 years ago lived just "up the road", or whose Dad just got a "great job offer"
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Wahls on June 22, 2009, 07:29:11 am
Quote from: johnharrison on June 22, 2009, 07:19:33 am
I'm telling you that you can look at the roster of 4 outta 6 championship teams EVERY year and see a couple of blue chippers, who until 2 years ago lived just "up the road", or whose Dad just got a "great job offer"

So what is your suggestion? Stop transfers all together? I don't believe that, but I like it for the sake of this argument.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: Billyo62 on June 22, 2009, 07:34:42 am
Quote from: johnharrison on June 22, 2009, 07:19:33 am
I'm telling you that you can look at the roster of 4 outta 6 championship teams EVERY year and see a couple of blue chippers, who until 2 years ago lived just "up the road", or whose Dad just got a "great job offer"

Happens every year, every where and has been going on forever!

This was a hot topic 30 years ago!   It never ends, just new names and teams.
Title: Re: Thanks Shiloh
Post by: johnharrison on June 22, 2009, 12:42:22 pm
Quote from: DQ's Comin' on June 22, 2009, 07:29:11 am
Quote from: johnharrison on June 22, 2009, 07:19:33 am
I'm telling you that you can look at the roster of 4 outta 6 championship teams EVERY year and see a couple of blue chippers, who until 2 years ago lived just "up the road", or whose Dad just got a "great job offer"

So what is your suggestion? Stop transfers all together? I don't believe that, but I like it for the sake of this argument.

(Now remember I am on record as stating Shiloh showed a total lack of class last year)

What do do about transfers?  I don't know, but it doesn't make sense to make a rule against one group that doesn't apply to others even though the are doing the same thing.

Should all kids need to be in a school by 9th grade in order to play sports (which really only means FB, BB and BB doesn't it?)

When someone who has never started a game at Central decides to transfer to AB, do you really think it is for athletics?  It's probably based on the decision that AB better meets that family's needs.  Punishing the kids by banning him from sports is ridiculous.

Tying transfers to 10 miles moves are HorShrt!  It is giving someone a chance to play for a better team.  Now is that bad?  If someone thought another school would give better exposure and get a better scholarship at a better college, I don't think that is all bad.

The rest of the world doesn't lose sleep over this.  They arrange their teams as clubs.  You can be Nashville, Little Rock East, Conway or Berryville.  You can play with who ever you get to show up for a game.  Good clubs tend to be good year after year as more quality wants to be part of the team.  Every few years they reassign conferences based on relative success.  Great teams play each other.

Now I don't think ANYTHING like that would be appropriate for HS sports, but I probably could go with, "Play any academically eligible kid who is at your school for a whole year"
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: stina_ar on July 04, 2009, 01:36:38 am
Yeah. Berryville definitely was the only public school to have a problem with private schools. ;D
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: HorseFeathers on July 04, 2009, 02:01:11 am
wow  old thread with some old names on it.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: benchball on July 05, 2009, 03:45:02 pm
pirate gets a +1

shiloh will cycle down in wins - theyre not too strong for another 4 yrs- and that class has cleaned our perverbial clocks for the lat 3 yrs.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Jimbo Morphis on July 06, 2009, 08:44:45 am
let public schools draw students from the same radius as private schools and play ball.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 06, 2009, 09:22:12 am
The problem is not with the private schools, it's some of the public schools. When you have teams that are great, then it should make the other schools try to get better. No one was trying to put Nashville, GW, Barton, JC, PB, Charleston, and SS in there own class or move them up to 7a (SS is all ready 7a I know) the other teams manned up. Winning brings out the cry babies, let one of the lesser schools (public) start winning, there will be no complaints of moving them up or saying they recruit. When you have great coaching and the system to match your supposed to win. And besides kids go to other public school because one is better than the other or there friend goes to that school. But some private schools do recrit, but so do some public schools.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Cheek on July 06, 2009, 11:48:41 am
This debate will never end, but the schools will vote on August 3rd. to separate Public and Private Schools. 
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DARK HORSE on July 07, 2009, 01:37:35 pm
I dont think there is one simple answer and no matter what you do someone will be unhappy with it.
Shiloh has what, about 190-200 enrollment and 48-50 on the football roster or about 25% of enrollment whereas most 4a schools have about 380-400 enrollment with about the same roster size or about 12-13% of enrollment. maybe a sliding multiplier would work better for the privates based on % of enrollment on the roster.
I know every winning program in the state gets accused of recruiting or playing the numbers and such with enrollment, look at Junction City and the claims that they dont count the Louisianna kids in enrollment numbers, or warren who have been accused  of recruiting at times, I am not saying these two items are true but it is a fact some people are going to cry and moan about other very good programs success.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: gatecrasher on July 08, 2009, 10:42:59 am
Junction City's city limits and school district lie on both sides of the state line which means they have kids from Louisiana attending. The number is relatively small though
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DARK HORSE on July 08, 2009, 12:40:38 pm
I know, but people accuse them of things because they are successful, even if they are untrue, which in JC's case they just have been blessed with some athletes and have a great program.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 08, 2009, 02:12:17 pm
Guys you both know with success brings hating and envy. In JC case they have been blessed with a boat load of talent. I wouldn't mind seeing them in 3a.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: gatecrasher on July 08, 2009, 02:29:48 pm
Doubt they will ever have the enrollment to reach 3A status, but they usually play up once or twice in non-conf. They open up against Fountain Lake this season.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DARK HORSE on July 08, 2009, 02:32:17 pm
You are correct DEBO, I believe JC could compete with most 4A schools on a one game basis, but #'s would eventually wear em down over a season.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DARK HORSE on July 08, 2009, 02:36:30 pm
I dont really know if other private schools have the same % of enrollment on the fb roster but 25% of enrollment is unusually high dont you think?
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: ScrapperMan on July 08, 2009, 03:00:43 pm
I would guess Nashville has to be close to that. It looks like they dress out 75 or 80 for home games.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 08, 2009, 03:15:22 pm
Yea GC and Dark Horse I don't think they would enrollment would matter much in 3a. They still would compete in 4a, but the numbers would catch up in the end. But they are still a great program.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 08, 2009, 03:19:13 pm
ScrapperMan do you how many they usually have for away games. But 75 - 80 is a lot for a 4a team.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: transplant on July 08, 2009, 04:14:13 pm
The same number home and away (the Scrappers don't leave any behind)...last year it was around 65.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 08, 2009, 05:20:23 pm
That's a nice turnout.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: outlaw39 on July 08, 2009, 05:53:40 pm
1. In the preseason, Nashville usually has 80 or so for summer practice, but that number drops to about 65-75.

2. Junction City at one time was conference opponents with Nashville, DeQueen, Prescott, and Fordyce. They were usually competitive. The 1996 season was their first in the now 2A and went 3-7 in the old 7A East. They reached the playoffs in '98 losing to Harding Academy 14-20 in OT. Their "rise to power" began in '99 when they had the now infamous 64-70 war with the now "untouchable" Shiloh Christian.

3. I have said MANY times that the answer to the public vs. private whine-fest is for the public schools to man up and put out the same effort getting better that they use trying to get rid of them. Nashville, Junction City, Glen Rose, Rison, etc. are perfect examples of public schools that put forth the effort to beat the privates instead of whining to get rid of them.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: gatecrasher on July 08, 2009, 09:13:47 pm
An anti-whiner post. +1
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 09, 2009, 09:05:45 am
COME ON OUTLAW THAT WOULD REQUIRE TO MUCH HARD WORK FOR SOME TEAMS AND COACHES. They would much rather have some one to give them talent or take the competition away, then work to improve there squad.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: outlaw39 on July 09, 2009, 05:00:14 pm
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on July 09, 2009, 09:05:45 am<br />COME ON OUTLAW THAT WOULD REQUIRE TO MUCH HARD WORK FOR SOME TEAMS AND COACHES. They would much rather have some one to give them talent or take the competition away, then work to improve there squad.<br />


Yeah, I know. Too bad half the schools are more concerned with getting rid of their competition than beating them. As it was said earlier, Shiloh is playing with their version of the "Sprigdale 5" right now. They will be gone next year. After they graduate, USC will be like they were the last time they were in this classification. They will go back to being one of the top teams in their conference, but come playoff time they will be beaten out by the 3rd round. The last 2 years they were in this class, Booneville hung 70 on 'em and the last year Ashdown beat them 49-22.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: gatecrasher on July 09, 2009, 05:01:49 pm
Don't be so sure....
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: outlaw39 on July 09, 2009, 05:08:35 pm
This year and the next they will be VERY tough for ANYONE to beat them. After that they will become beatable for Nashville, Warren, PA, etc.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: gatecrasher on July 09, 2009, 06:42:50 pm
We'll see. They don't rebuild. They reload.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: outlaw39 on July 09, 2009, 09:07:51 pm
That's what I keep hearing from all the Scrapper fanatics around here. We'll see. Course the "Scrapper Nation" will be looking for a replacement for Coach Dawson after this season is over. With what Nashville has next year, if the right guy is hired he will have a chance to do what Woods did his first year.

Plus, Nashville is really pumped about the new bleachers!!!!
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: phdefense on July 10, 2009, 12:23:00 pm
Quote from: outlaw39 on July 09, 2009, 05:08:35 pm
This year and the next they will be VERY tough for ANYONE to beat them. After that they will become beatable for Nashville, Warren, PA, etc.

Now now remember that the problem is that the public schools need to work harder.  So until the lazyness of the public schools is dealt with the Saints may never lose again :)
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: outlaw39 on July 10, 2009, 04:42:20 pm
There are a few schools that have figured that out.  ;)
Title: Does this help or hurt?
Post by: AAAspectator on July 12, 2009, 04:58:30 pm
With the Arkansas Democrat Gazette naming the school champions, does pa, shiloh, and Conway St. Joseph winning the 3 bottom classifications hurt private schools in upcoming vote? 3A,4A, and 5A were dominated by private schools last season in more than just football. What do you think?
Title: Re: Does this help or hurt?
Post by: spurrr on July 12, 2009, 05:18:25 pm
Don't know if it helps or hurts. Just puts the situation into proper perspective IMO!
Title: Re: Does this help or hurt?
Post by: Ty on July 12, 2009, 08:41:12 pm
It really doesn't matter at all.

It's a flawed formula and most people will recognize it as so.
Title: Re: Does this help or hurt?
Post by: QPWFB on July 13, 2009, 07:49:34 am
It won't matter,the seperation vote will not pass. The alternative proposal may pass. But will have little effect on the current situation.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: vettefan on July 13, 2009, 04:52:06 pm
I'm a little lost on how the vote on Aug 3rd will affect the 1-4A this year.  I see that the AAA is proposing the Non public transfer rule pass, but how does that affect the private schools this year?  Or will it at all?  I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.  Any thought would be great
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 14, 2009, 10:02:41 am
The problem is some of the public schools don't know how or are to cheap to finance ways to build a powerhouse. Meaning you start these kids out with pee wee leagues. And that's coaching, conditioning, running a balanced system and support of the parents/community. If a town/school isn't financially able then parents and coaches need to volunteer their time. Until then quit complaining and play football.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Billyo62 on July 14, 2009, 10:10:07 am
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on July 14, 2009, 10:02:41 am
The problem is some of the public schools don't know how or are to cheap to finance ways to build a powerhouse. Meaning you start these kids out with pee wee leagues. And that's coaching, conditioning, running a balanced system and support of the parents/community. If a town/school isn't financially able then parents and coaches need to volunteer their time. Until then quit complaining and play football.

Bingo!  A good High school program starts long before the kids get to high school, you still need a good head coach, but that won't mean much without a good feeder program.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 14, 2009, 10:26:38 am
I'm glad to see people recognize that also. You can't whine your way to a championship!!!
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Cheek on July 14, 2009, 03:50:39 pm
Quote from: vettefan on July 13, 2009, 04:52:06 pm
I'm a little lost on how the vote on Aug 3rd will affect the 1-4A this year.  I see that the AAA is proposing the Non public transfer rule pass, but how does that affect the private schools this year?  Or will it at all?  I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.  Any thought would be great

On August 3rd, all the AAA schools will vote to either keep thing the way they are, or split Public and Private Schools for the playoffs. There will be a Public School State Champion and a  Private School State Champion. It will take a 60% vote for the resolution to pass. 
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: gatecrasher on July 14, 2009, 08:15:09 pm
It is on lots of prayer lists that this does not pass. This passing would be the equal of the nerds winning the Greek Council.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: GLion Alum on July 14, 2009, 09:26:52 pm
I have the same question as vettefan:  If it passes (and I doubt it will), will it take effect in the 2009 season?  I'll go on record right now to predict that, if it passes, a lawsuit will be filed for the primary purpose of delaying implementation until after the playoffs.  I can't believe I'm beginning to think like a private school supporter. :-[
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Kingfisher on July 14, 2009, 09:38:31 pm
^I'm beginning to think you've had some experience with this sort of thing...and you are correct.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Grover1017 on July 14, 2009, 09:44:54 pm
And when the lawsuit is filed, we'll find out who the true whiners are.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: benchball on July 19, 2009, 11:35:56 am
and its not about just winning. its about winning with dignity and character and your morals!

shiloh will cycle down in 2 years
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: fourpeat on July 19, 2009, 06:50:54 pm
Quote from: benchball on July 19, 2009, 11:35:56 am
and its not about just winning. its about winning with dignity and character and your morals!

shiloh will cycle down in 2 years
Oh no they won't!!!!
Title: Public-Private Split
Post by: Adjudicator on July 22, 2009, 07:21:40 pm
I was told by an administrator of a 5A school in Northeast Ark. today that he talked to the principal at Shiloh Christian and he said that the AAA has enough votes to pass this idiotic public-private split.  Can anyone from SCS confirm or deny this?  Just wondering. If this passes it will prove that the AAA has completely lost it's mind.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 22, 2009, 07:38:40 pm
Quote from: Adjudicator on July 22, 2009, 07:21:40 pm
I was told by an administrator of a 5A school in Northeast Ark. today that he talked to the principal at Shiloh Christian and he said that the AAA has enough votes to pass this idiotic public-private split.  Can anyone from SCS confirm or deny this?  Just wondering. If this passes it will prove that the AAA has completely lost it's mind.

I have no inside info, but that would be the WORST thing for high school sports in this state, maybe not a bigger state , but definetly for Arkansas.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Bville.Bobcat on July 22, 2009, 07:46:44 pm
Quote from: Adjudicator on July 22, 2009, 07:21:40 pm
I was told by an administrator of a 5A school in Northeast Ark. today that he talked to the principal at Shiloh Christian and he said that the AAA has enough votes to pass this idiotic public-private split.  Can anyone from SCS confirm or deny this?  Just wondering. If this passes it will prove that the AAA has completely lost it's mind.

I've heard it wont pass. You have to have 2/3 votes. You have to figure alot of schools wont even show up for the vote.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: hogdiggity on July 22, 2009, 07:48:05 pm
I was told a couple of weeks ago that it is expected to pass. 
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 09:04:40 pm
First of all, expect everyone to vote.  There are multiple proposals to vote on that will govern other things besides this one.

Here is a thread on the MMQB section that shows them all:
http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=93529.0

Secondly, I think there is some confusion here on what people heard.  I believe the proposal thats rumored to pass is the AAA's alternative version.  The 2/3 part previously mentioned that is need to change a bylaw is expected to be too large of an obstacle to overcome.

Very simply, it's the AAA's alternative that's 'expected to pass'.

Hope that clears it up.

Again, click the link to see.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: hogdiggity on July 22, 2009, 09:09:29 pm
well what is the alternative you speak of QF?  It just didn't jump out at me on the document you linked to
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 09:13:00 pm
http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/09Gov.pdf

Scale down to Proposal #8.  If #7 fails(which the AAA recommends), then they will vote on #8.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: hogdiggity on July 22, 2009, 09:21:01 pm
Quote from: QF© on July 22, 2009, 09:13:00 pm
http://www.ahsaa.org/docs/09Gov.pdf

Scale down to Proposal #8.  If #7 fails(which the AAA recommends), then they will vote on #8.

they should just let privates voluntarily move up to the next level.  I would assume Shiloh would be OK with that, I know I have been told PA isn't happy with being moved down to 4A for next year.  I was told they are going to petition to stay in 5A
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 09:25:01 pm
They each already play up a level.  You are correct that some are likely to petition to play up even more.

After the voting is done and things are more settled, it's expected that PA will petition to move back to 5A and it's possible others might petition to move up as well.

The vote comes first, then we'll see who wants to play were and if it's allowed.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: hogdiggity on July 22, 2009, 09:27:08 pm
Quote from: QF© on July 22, 2009, 09:25:01 pm
They each already play up a level.  You are correct that some are likely to petition to play up even more.

After the voting is done and things are more settled, it's expected that PA will petition to move back to 5A and it's possible others might petition to move up as well.

The vote comes first, then we'll see who wants to play were and if it's allowed.

thanks for the clarification
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Mr. Big on July 22, 2009, 09:36:42 pm
Maybe they should just play in there real classification. I think all of them but maybe CAC would be 2A. Just move them all down there and forget about it. They say its an even playing field so play where you are classified at.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 10:18:25 pm
According to Arkansas Sports 360, there is a "grassroots" movement according to Coach Tice of Harrison for the split to pass. If it passes, look for lawsuits. The problem is the Catholic schools are all charter members, as I've been told.
The blame/problem falls mainly on Shiloh, then CAC who according to one report had a remarkable 22 students transfer in. PA gets in there also somewhere.
Tice asks a great question in the article: if they won't share a classroom with us, why should we share a lockerroom with them?

Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 10:23:44 pm
As I've said on several occasions, I think this is closer than some people realize.  It would clear a simple majority.  The 2/3 thing is the thing.  Plus, not many of the 6A/7A schools are expected to vote for the initial proposal.

That's 32 right there.  Which puts a lot of pressure on the others to overcome that to get to 2/3.

The vote will make a statement if noting else.  One way or the other.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 22, 2009, 10:46:06 pm
Harrison, is that the strong hold of the racist fundamentalist groups?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: muleshoe_forever on July 22, 2009, 10:50:58 pm
The current "multiplier" bumps a private school up one classification above where their actual enrollment would place them.  I have been confused for a while why everyone thinks this school or that school would be a 2A school. Looking at the classification they will be in for the next cycle would tell us that Harding Academy, Arkansas Baptist and Episcopal are the only 2A size private schools that play football. Shiloh, Subiaco Academy and PA are the only 3A size schools with PA being one the largest if not the largest 3A size school. CAC and LR Christian are 4A size schools and Catholic is a 6A size school. They did allow the current 2A private schools to stay in 2A because they have 1A numbers. These schools are already 2A schools by default due to them having football. I would figure the AAA alowed them to be exempt to the multiplier to keep them from having to play schools with enrollment numbers two classifications above their own when the other privates were playing up only one classification.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: benchball on July 22, 2009, 10:54:39 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 22, 2009, 10:46:06 pm
Harrison, is that the strong hold of the racist fundamentalist groups?
it has been known by worse names

qf- thanks for the clarification on the vote
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 10:59:41 pm
Quote from: benchball on July 22, 2009, 10:54:39 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 22, 2009, 10:46:06 pm
Harrison, is that the strong hold of the racist fundamentalist groups?
it has been known by worse names

qf- thanks for the clarification on the vote
That Harrison stuff is past tense.

No problem, I think as that date approaches we'll here lots of rumors regarding it.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Chris on July 22, 2009, 11:01:27 pm
I also heard this week that administrators from central arkansas believe that proposition 7 will pass.   just an fyi
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 11:19:05 pm
My take after speaking to a couple of coaches is that the majority wants it to pass but the reason the AAA board put a "Do Not Pass" was the headache it would cause the AAA to divide for the playoffs. Not a true statement of public opinion. The first week of August could mean the end for some programs.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 11:19:28 pm
To look at this a little closer, the most that voted on a proposal last year was 229.  Using that as a basis, that means only 77 schools have to vote against it to keep it from passing.

The number voting might be a little bit different, but you get the general idea.  If you assume that 6A and 7A schools are not going to vote for it, that drops it down to say 47(i'll say 30 of those vote against it).  Then you can also assume all the private schools will be against it, so take another 12-15 off of that to get it down to 32-35.

Now yielding that's speculative, that means of the remaining schools that are not 7A, 6A or private you have about 170 or so left(give or take a few).

Bottomline, out of 170 left the only need 32-35 of those schools to vote against it to make it fail.  This is were the vote will swing conclusively to one side or another.  Plus, I personally think most 5A schools are against it as well.

Again, that's speculative at best and I admit that.  But right now, I see it coming down to how strong the smaller schools feel about it and if they actually vote that way as a group.

Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Chris on July 22, 2009, 11:33:00 pm
QF   those are alot of big ifs; I have been surprised by the number of comments that i have read from around the state.  But one thing that jumps out at me; what is the down side for public schools to vote in the affirmative?  I mean really how does it effect them?   i guess you could look at that both ways,  I think you might be surprised how many 6 and 7a schools to vote a do pass on this admendment.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 11:38:24 pm
Quote from: Chris on July 22, 2009, 11:33:00 pm
I think you might be surprised how many 6 and 7a schools to vote a do pass on this admendment.
I think that most of the 7A didn't really care or see private schools on their level until one certain school started saying that they would be for moving up to 7A. This certain school also claims that they are the #1 football team in the state. I'd look for a vote for proposal 7 from the 7A West members.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 11:40:56 pm
No doubt, lots of "IF's" and I wanted to be clear they were.  I think a lot of backslapping politics are going to go on that hasn't already.

My personal opinion is that many schools are just sick of dealing with the whole pub vs. private issue and want to be done with it even if they think it's unfair.  But at the same time, they don't want to face more litigation and have crap from lawsuits going on during this season and down the road.   Since they(bigger schools) are generally unaffected by the Shiloh's and PA's, I think it's easier for them to take the safer road.  For them, that's to fail it and thus not have any problems on their on plates.

By the way, that's a collective opinion I've heard from a few larger schools.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 11:48:17 pm
Quote from: QF© on July 22, 2009, 11:40:56 pm
I think it's easier for them to take the safer road.  For them, that's to fail it and thus not have any problems on their on plates.

I think that was the opinion until a certain program started flapping their jaws. I think in the past the way it was handled was just ignore them. I agree that people are tired of dealing with the subject. This would be a one time vote to separate things.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 22, 2009, 11:53:08 pm
I don't think the jawflapping will change their votes.  It just  reenforces the letsomeoneelse deal with it philosophy.  They really could care less other than they get tired of hearing it in the short run.

But overall, it's a weed growing in the sidewalk to them.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Go.Razorhogs on July 23, 2009, 02:42:17 am
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 10:18:25 pm
then CAC who according to one report had a remarkable 22 students transfer in.


I've never understood why CAC gets so few mentions when talking about private schools. They get more transfers than any other private school.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 06:43:25 am
Quote from: QF© on July 22, 2009, 11:40:56 pm
No doubt, lots of "IF's" and I wanted to be clear they were.  I think a lot of backslapping politics are going to go on that hasn't already.

My personal opinion is that many schools are just sick of dealing with the whole pub vs. private issue and want to be done with it even if they think it's unfair.  But at the same time, they don't want to face more litigation and have crap from lawsuits going on during this season and down the road.   Since they(bigger schools) are generally unaffected by the Shiloh's and PA's, I think it's easier for them to take the safer road.  For them, that's to fail it and thus not have any problems on their on plates.

By the way, that's a collective opinion I've heard from a few larger schools.
I don't know if it will pass or not,I do know this;the voting members are made up of mostly superintendents and athletic directors,a lot of them know each other.A lot of phone calls are being made about this topic to drum up support.
Just the fact that its on the ballot,and has a "chance" of passing speaks volumes about the situation.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 07:01:18 am
Quote from: Go.Razorhogs on July 23, 2009, 02:42:17 am
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 10:18:25 pm
then CAC who according to one report had a remarkable 22 students transfer in.


I've never understood why CAC gets so few mentions when talking about private schools. They get more transfers than any other private school.

It's because they play at the highest classification, where a handful of very good players doesn't have as big of an impact as it does in the smaller classifications, but If they were Winning every year there would be some rumblings just not as much, at least that is my experience from another state!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 07:30:48 am
While were on the subject,let me tell you about a situation that happened last week at our school,may help some understand why the public schools are sick of the situation.
   Follow along with this , Parents are divorced,One lives in our school district,the other lives in a district that borders us,they have joint custody of child. The child has never attended our school,has been going to boardering school where mom lives. The kid is a very good bb player, going into 10th grade. Kid plays AAU ball all summer, the said AAU team just happens to be coached by the coach of a certain private school in Conway. So now low and behold,the parents have decided that after playing on this team all summer with this private school coach that their child needs to switch to that same private school where her AAU coach is employed.
    Here's the problem,her home district won't give her a transfer or an athletic waiver, so they come too our district and ask ,"if we enroll her in your school ,will you then turn around and give us a transfer and waiver so she can attend this private school to play basketball for her AAU coach". Of course they were told no way thats happening,they got mad and left.
    Just an example of whats really going on, I'm sure this coach would never have a conversation with this child during the summer that might reflect "recruiting".
   I don't blame the parents for wanting what they think is a better situation for their child. Don't blame the public schools for not wanting to play the teams that are stacked with players that left their school.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Adjudicator on July 23, 2009, 08:39:19 am
Quote from: QF© on July 22, 2009, 09:04:40 pm
First of all, expect everyone to vote.  There are multiple proposals to vote on that will govern other things besides this one.

Here is a thread on the MMQB section that shows them all:
http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=93529.0

Secondly, I think there is some confusion here on what people heard.  I believe the proposal thats rumored to pass is the AAA's alternative version.  The 2/3 part previously mentioned that is need to change a bylaw is expected to be too large of an obstacle to overcome.

Very simply, it's the AAA's alternative that's 'expected to pass'.

Hope that clears it up.

Again, click the link to see.
I read all of the proposals.  I am clear on the issue at hand.  It's still bad.  If the public schools are tired of getting beat up by the little ole privates, then get better.  Don't ask the governing body of the AAA to help you get better by eliminating the competition.  Get better and beat them on the field, not in the board room.

If there are and Shiloh folks on here, can you confirm of deny that the Ex. Director of the AAA visited your football coach and ask him to lighten up and don't beat teams by 60?!?  Also heard that took place as well. 
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Go.Razorhogs on July 23, 2009, 08:44:10 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 07:01:18 am
Quote from: Go.Razorhogs on July 23, 2009, 02:42:17 am
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 22, 2009, 10:18:25 pm
then CAC who according to one report had a remarkable 22 students transfer in.


I've never understood why CAC gets so few mentions when talking about private schools. They get more transfers than any other private school.

It's because they play at the highest classification, where a handful of very good players doesn't have as big of an impact as it does in the smaller classifications, but If they were Winning every year there would be some rumblings just not as much, at least that is my experience from another state!

Central Arkansas Christian(CAC) is in the 5A. LR Catholic is in the 7A.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: parpar on July 23, 2009, 08:46:24 am
"I don't know if it will pass or not,I do know this;the voting members are made up of mostly superintendents and athletic directors,a lot of them know each other."

Are you sure of that statement?  Most voting reps I know are principals.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 23, 2009, 08:47:14 am
Quote from: Adjudicator on July 23, 2009, 08:39:19 am

I read all of the proposals.  I am clear on the issue at hand.  It's still bad.  If the public schools are tired of getting beat up by the little ole privates, then get better.  Don't ask the governing body of the AAA to help you get better by eliminating the competition.  Get better and beat them on the field, not in the board room.
That's an editorial and that's fine.  But that's a whole different subject.  It's been discussed on a 2 dozen threads for the past 6 months. 

And Lance Taylor personally visited Shiloh before Berryville even submitted the proposal and asked them to tone it down.

That's fairly well know as well.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 23, 2009, 08:49:21 am
Quote from: parpar on July 23, 2009, 08:46:24 am
"I don't know if it will pass or not,I do know this;the voting members are made up of mostly superintendents and athletic directors,a lot of them know each other."

Are you sure of that statement?  Most voting reps I know are principals.

Here you go from the AAA Handbook:

SECTION 2. MEMBERSHIP REPRESENTATIVE. The
superintendent shall be the authorized representative of the
member school. The superintendent may designate an
assistant/deputy superintendent or the principal/assistant
principal of the member school as the school's voting
representative.


So essentially, it's on the supers first.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 08:51:07 am
Quote from: QF© on July 23, 2009, 08:47:14 am
Quote from: Adjudicator on July 23, 2009, 08:39:19 am

I read all of the proposals.  I am clear on the issue at hand.  It's still bad.  If the public schools are tired of getting beat up by the little ole privates, then get better.  Don't ask the governing body of the AAA to help you get better by eliminating the competition.  Get better and beat them on the field, not in the board room.
That's an editorial and that's fine.  But that's a whole different subject.  It's been discussed on a 2 dozen threads for the past 6 months. 

And Lance Taylor personally visited Shiloh before Berryville even submitted the proposal and asked them to tone it down.
That's fairly well know as well.

If that's true what a bunch of BS,  I guess he went over Shiloh's playbook and Crossed out the plays he didn't approve of because Berryville may not be able to defend them,  and of course No passes over 15yds!!!   What a joke!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 09:06:27 am
Quote from: parpar on July 23, 2009, 08:46:24 am
"I don't know if it will pass or not,I do know this;the voting members are made up of mostly superintendents and athletic directors,a lot of them know each other."

Are you sure of that statement?  Most voting reps I know are principals.
Most I know are in smaller schools,and they are supt. If the principle is voting,I'll bet the AD and supt are involved with the decision.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: hogdiggity on July 23, 2009, 09:08:00 am
I'd be willing to bet no matter who is voting the AD has a major input
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 09:24:09 am
That is very weak if true. Kids switch in public schools all the time for a couple of reasons. 1, better situation ( weather it's education or the environment ) and 2, a winning program. You can put them in the order you like. The only thing the public schools ( the ones that are against playing privates ) is doing is making their programs out to be quitters. Meaning we don't want to play some of the best competition, just teams we think we beat. That's not a good message to send to kids in their program. That's why your kids leave your school, you try and duck the good teams. And besides I might agree if the privates were wining and blowing out teams year in and year out. THEY DON'T!!! ???
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 09:27:52 am
Quote from: Adjudicator on July 23, 2009, 08:39:19 am
Quote from: QF© on July 22, 2009, 09:04:40 pm
First of all, expect everyone to vote.  There are multiple proposals to vote on that will govern other things besides this one.

Here is a thread on the MMQB section that shows them all:
http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=93529.0

Secondly, I think there is some confusion here on what people heard.  I believe the proposal thats rumored to pass is the AAA's alternative version.  The 2/3 part previously mentioned that is need to change a bylaw is expected to be too large of an obstacle to overcome.

Very simply, it's the AAA's alternative that's 'expected to pass'.

Hope that clears it up.

Again, click the link to see.
I read all of the proposals.  I am clear on the issue at hand.  It's still bad.  If the public schools are tired of getting beat up by the little ole privates, then get better.  Don't ask the governing body of the AAA to help you get better by eliminating the competition.  Get better and beat them on the field, not in the board room.

If there are and Shiloh folks on here, can you confirm of deny that the Ex. Director of the AAA visited your football coach and ask him to lighten up and don't beat teams by 60?!?  Also heard that took place as well. 
Why do you say" little ole privates" like they are some innocent undersized weak old lady getting beat up by bullies? Every private school we played last year,in every sport had more kids on their team than we did! It's hard to get better when you have almost no hope of 4 or 5 athletes showing up at your school each year,we don't have a population the size of Conway or LR or NWA to attract kids from, I coach a sign up league softball team, I take what shows up for the first practice and try and make them into a team. I don't go out and set up games with teams that are made up of the girls from our community and surrounding communities that were too good for sign up ball so they all ended up on a tournament team together, and thats fine if thays what they want,but I'm not going to make my sign up team play them and get humiliated,you see my point.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 09:45:50 am
Point taken, but as a coach it's your job to work with your community and try and set up peewee programs. That's how kids get better, and that's why most good programs reload, not rebuild. And if a coach wont do that, than they deserve we they get.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 10:56:07 am
I do what I can,I run our peewee football league,coach one of the teams, I also coached two different age groups of girls in softball,and was the assistant coach of a 14u baseball team.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 11:02:19 am
Well, I applaud your effort do you have anyone else helping out?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Jimbo Morphis on July 23, 2009, 11:07:28 am
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 09:24:09 am
That is very weak if true. Kids switch in public schools all the time for a couple of reasons. 1, better situation ( weather it's education or the environment ) and 2, a winning program. You can put them in the order you like. The only thing the public schools ( the ones that are against playing privates ) is doing is making their programs out to be quitters. Meaning we don't want to play some of the best competition, just teams we think we beat. That's not a good message to send to kids in their program. That's why your kids leave your school, you try and duck the good teams. And besides I might agree if the privates were wining and blowing out teams year in and year out. THEY DON'T!!! ???
weather and education are the main reason kids leave. its alot cooler in north arkansas.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 11:08:54 am
Quote from: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 10:56:07 am
I do what I can,I run our peewee football league,coach one of the teams, I also coached two different age groups of girls in softball,and was the assistant coach of a 14u baseball team.

I applaud you also, but you can't do it all by yourself,  you need to be the force behind getting as many people involved that you can,  It won't be near as hard if they see that you are the guy that is 100% committed and have shown it with your actions, and not just talk!

Keep up the good work!  :)
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 11:11:00 am
Quote from: Oldman on July 23, 2009, 11:07:28 am
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 09:24:09 am
That is very weak if true. Kids switch in public schools all the time for a couple of reasons. 1, better situation ( weather it's education or the environment ) and 2, a winning program. You can put them in the order you like. The only thing the public schools ( the ones that are against playing privates ) is doing is making their programs out to be quitters. Meaning we don't want to play some of the best competition, just teams we think we beat. That's not a good message to send to kids in their program. That's why your kids leave your school, you try and duck the good teams. And besides I might agree if the privates were wining and blowing out teams year in and year out. THEY DON'T!!! ???
weather and education are the main reason kids leave. its alot cooler in north arkansas.

Are you saying the COOL Stupid kids are flocking to the NWA?  ;)
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Jimbo Morphis on July 23, 2009, 11:28:01 am
Quote from: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 11:11:00 am
Quote from: Oldman on July 23, 2009, 11:07:28 am
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 09:24:09 am
That is very weak if true. Kids switch in public schools all the time for a couple of reasons. 1, better situation ( weather it's education or the environment ) and 2, a winning program. You can put them in the order you like. The only thing the public schools ( the ones that are against playing privates ) is doing is making their programs out to be quitters. Meaning we don't want to play some of the best competition, just teams we think we beat. That's not a good message to send to kids in their program. That's why your kids leave your school, you try and duck the good teams. And besides I might agree if the privates were wining and blowing out teams year in and year out. THEY DON'T!!! ???
weather and education are the main reason kids leave. its alot cooler in north arkansas.

Are you saying the COOL Stupid kids are flocking to the NWA?  ;)
it is what it is, just sayin,lol.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: vettefan on July 23, 2009, 12:21:38 pm
I just have to jump in here.  I have to address the comment about you should start your program in peewee, support from the community, etc.  Alot of these teams do start in peewee, and are coached by parents and I know they work very hard.  Especially with small schools, the community is always behind their team and do whatever they can to help out.  Sometimes it is so much so that other sports wonder if they realize we play other sports.  I know that I can go into 99% of the businesses you will see something about our football team.  But with a town of around 2000, you can only get a certain percentage of quality athletes, where in the larger private school areas the percentage is much higher.  No matter how much support your town throws at your team, we do not work with the financial advantages that the private schools have.  Thats what it boils down to.  But whatever is decided, our team will deal with it and continue to go out on the field give everything they have and have pride in their own community and our community will be proud to know that they did their very best and our boys are a product of years of hard work and love of the game.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 12:45:15 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on July 23, 2009, 11:08:54 am
Quote from: QPWFB on July 23, 2009, 10:56:07 am
I do what I can,I run our peewee football league,coach one of the teams, I also coached two different age groups of girls in softball,and was the assistant coach of a 14u baseball team.

I applaud you also, but you can't do it all by yourself,  you need to be the force behind getting as many people involved that you can,  It won't be near as hard if they see that you are the guy that is 100% committed and have shown it with your actions, and not just talk!

Keep up the good work!  :)
Thanks for the kind words,did'nt mean to jerk my own chain,our little community has other folks who do what they can, just seems like never enough to go around.It bothers me when people imply that all we have to do is try harder,work harder or spend more money and we can compete with the SC's of the world. Our kids and coaches  will continue to do their best and go out and compete to the best of their ability no matter the circumstances.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Mulerider on July 23, 2009, 12:51:31 pm
This is Louisiana all over again.  Early in the private/public discussions the big boy schools were all for the little ole privates just playing up, no split necessary, in other words they were like the big schools in AR, they didn't care.  Send em up here to us big boys and we will show those little ole privates that they have bitten off more than they can chew.

10 years and about 17 State Champions later, the little private schools were voted out by the big boys and sent to the "play in class" rules that were championed by, you guessed it, the big boys.

If you can't beat 'em, ship 'em to another class.  So now two of the most dominate football teams in American play in class 2A in Louisiana simply because all of the schools in 5A, 4A, and 3A wanted no part of them.  The 2A and 1A schools didn't have enough votes so that is where LA sits now.

Of course now the cry is split, split, split.  I remember when the big schools in LA were just as arrogant as the big schools in AR are now about this kind of stuff.  Send up the privates, it'll change the opinion quickly.

The only answer is instituting boundaries for student athletes that match those of the public schools in the same district.  If you want to participate in extracurricular activities at your school then you have to live in the school boundary as set out for the privates.  If you don't want to participate, live anywhere you want.

If  this was instituted there could be no more crying about advantages of open attendance.  Address the issues that cause the problems, don't punish the schools that follow the rules they are given.

Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: hogdiggity on July 23, 2009, 01:15:40 pm
Quote from: Mulerider on July 23, 2009, 12:51:31 pm
This is Louisiana all over again.  Early in the private/public discussions the big boy schools were all for the little ole privates just playing up, no split necessary, in other words they were like the big schools in AR, they didn't care.  Send em up here to us big boys and we will show those little ole privates that they have bitten off more than they can chew.

10 years and about 17 State Champions later, the little private schools were voted out by the big boys and sent to the "play in class" rules that were championed by, you guessed it, the big boys.

If you can't beat 'em, ship 'em to another class.  So now two of the most dominate football teams in American play in class 2A in Louisiana simply because all of the schools in 5A, 4A, and 3A wanted no part of them.  The 2A and 1A schools didn't have enough votes so that is where LA sits now.

Of course now the cry is split, split, split.  I remember when the big schools in LA were just as arrogant as the big schools in AR are now about this kind of stuff.  Send up the privates, it'll change the opinion quickly.

The only answer is instituting boundaries for student athletes that match those of the public schools in the same district.  If you want to participate in extracurricular activities at your school then you have to live in the school boundary as set out for the privates.  If you don't want to participate, live anywhere you want.

If  this was instituted there could be no more crying about advantages of open attendance.  Address the issues that cause the problems, don't punish the schools that follow the rules they are given.



Louisiana privates are growing so quick it won't be long and they will probably dominate every class.  They have a pretty big mess down there.  Evangel I think would rather be in a bigger classification, as almost all of their out of conf. games are against huge schools from all over the nation.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 03:09:37 pm
The thing is when people say all they have are 2000 people ( in town) ect.. I understand that, but their are schools with fewer people in town and they have excellent programs. And when you teach your kids the right techniques, different parts of the game, build on speed, strength, and discipline. Your program will be successful and competitive, I don't care what size town you have. And most private schools parents drop off that change ( meaning donations). Public schools have parents that do the same. Don't make excuses about finances, they give grants and have other programs out there for help. And I have witness some peewee leagues ran by a lot of parents who think they know more than the coach (SOME DO), but it's the coach who should call the shots on making sure the kids get trained and properly taught not the parents. And it's the parents job to listen and help ex-acute.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 23, 2009, 03:34:45 pm
The guy makes a great point in the article and I don't have a problem with people saying if you don't wont to associate with public schools than why play them ( which I don't 100%, maybe 65% is true) It's when people say they can't compete. This is all because SC had great season it happens in public schools to. Barton, Rison, JC, Greenwood, SS, PB, and their are many more. You didn't hear stop the public from beating on the private. And for the record I went to Earle very public school.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 07:52:03 pm
But how can a private school argue Coach Tice's point? I saw that on Hogville as well. If you don't want your child in a public classroom why would you expect them to be allowed on a public field/court? I don't know any situation where a private school kid can use public school resources except in sports. It may exist.

Argue that and I'll buy it.
I have friends with kids at Shiloh and half really want a christian education for their kids while the other just want their kids  in a private school (prestige, hands-on). I don't understand it in NWA because schools here are really good. I don't know LR area to make an assumption.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Eddie Goodson on July 23, 2009, 08:00:15 pm
I can tell you all one school in SE Arkansas WILL NOT be voting for the split. IMO, the vote won't even be close.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Bville.Bobcat on July 23, 2009, 09:49:13 pm
Its good Floyd brought facts to the table... unlike Tice.

"As far as transfers, we've done a study of the past 10 years and we've had 22 transfer in to play football. But yet, we've had about 60 plus that transferred out. My goal, hopefully, is that truth and facts come out about this. There are a lot of crazy assumptions and a lot of stuff out there that just isn't true."
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 11:05:08 pm
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on July 23, 2009, 09:49:13 pm
Its good Floyd brought facts to the table... unlike Tice.

"As far as transfers, we've done a study of the past 10 years and we've had 22 transfer in to play football. But yet, we've had about 60 plus that transferred out. My goal, hopefully, is that truth and facts come out about this. There are a lot of crazy assumptions and a lot of stuff out there that just isn't true."

Keep believing that. You believe the QB transfer was legit, Santa Claus is real, etc...
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Bville.Bobcat on July 23, 2009, 11:26:50 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 11:05:08 pm
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on July 23, 2009, 09:49:13 pm
Its good Floyd brought facts to the table... unlike Tice.

"As far as transfers, we've done a study of the past 10 years and we've had 22 transfer in to play football. But yet, we've had about 60 plus that transferred out. My goal, hopefully, is that truth and facts come out about this. There are a lot of crazy assumptions and a lot of stuff out there that just isn't true."

Keep believing that. You believe the QB transfer was legit, Santa Claus is real, etc...

From what I understand Frazier was at Greenland before transferring to West Fork.... I guess West Fork must have recruited him then right?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 11:37:45 pm
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on July 23, 2009, 11:26:50 pm
From what I understand Frazier was at Greenland before transferring to West Fork.... I guess West Fork must have recruited him then right?
Does moving from Greenland to West Fork require a $6000 investment, a change of address, and a recruiting service?
I'll give them this, at least they physically moved to springdale. That's the only legitimate thing that can be proven.

I don't know their family. From what I've been told  the kid is a great young man.

Here is the argument: you had to move to shiloh because he wouldn't get any exposure but his brother received a scholarship while attending West Fork. Granted the "help" of PP may have aided in that. The part that stinks to high heaven is PP is run by the biggest shiloh leech in history. All of a sudden, he moves to springdale to attend shiloh. Ray Charles could see this. It's not about the players; this is about punishing a coach, his leech, and all private school boosters who want to treat high school like their mini college. High School needs boosters, not leeches. IMO
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Mulerider on July 26, 2009, 06:44:56 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 07:52:03 pm
But how can a private school argue Coach Tice's point? I saw that on Hogville as well. If you don't want your child in a public classroom why would you expect them to be allowed on a public field/court? I don't know any situation where a private school kid can use public school resources except in sports. It may exist.

Argue that and I'll buy it.
I have friends with kids at Shiloh and half really want a christian education for their kids while the other just want their kids  in a private school (prestige, hands-on). I don't understand it in NWA because schools here are really good. I don't know LR area to make an assumption.

Private schools have access to a variety of things that public schools do other than sports.  Private schools students can ride the same school buses as public school students.  Private's can also be reimbursed for text books and other educational resources. 

On top of that, the AAA is a private organization that has a ruling membership so this has nothing to do with the educational side handled by the state.  Its apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Bville.Bobcat on July 26, 2009, 08:20:13 pm
Quote from: Mulerider on July 26, 2009, 06:44:56 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 07:52:03 pm
But how can a private school argue Coach Tice's point? I saw that on Hogville as well. If you don't want your child in a public classroom why would you expect them to be allowed on a public field/court? I don't know any situation where a private school kid can use public school resources except in sports. It may exist.

Argue that and I'll buy it.
I have friends with kids at Shiloh and half really want a christian education for their kids while the other just want their kids  in a private school (prestige, hands-on). I don't understand it in NWA because schools here are really good. I don't know LR area to make an assumption.

Private schools have access to a variety of things that public schools do other than sports.  Private schools students can ride the same school buses as public school students.  Private's can also be reimbursed for text books and other educational resources. 

On top of that, the AAA is a private organization that has a ruling membership so this has nothing to do with the educational side handled by the state.  Its apples and oranges.

Private school parents pay the same state taxes that public school parents do. Thats why they should expect their kids to be able to share the same locker rooms as public school kids.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 26, 2009, 08:39:28 pm
Quote from: Mulerider on July 26, 2009, 06:44:56 pm

Private schools have access to a variety of things that public schools do other than sports.  Private schools students can ride the same school buses as public school students. 

Now if I attended Catholic High, why would I want to ride a school bus to Central?    or even Hall for that matter.

Do you have ANY examples of private school students riding public school buses (though it would bother me much as I think if you are running that many buses you ought to allow anyone to use them.

I think all public schools pick up the costs of AP tests.  Not so for priviates.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 09:48:50 am
I read a number of months ago that Bentonville had a high percentage (I think highest in the state by a wide margin) of children with autism.  Now, is it because Bentonville recruits these students or is it because they have a great program for them?  Maybe parents are attracted to Bentonville school district because of it?  Is it possible that some parents are making decisions for the good of their kids? 

Is it possible that some parents might think that Shiloh is good for their kids (academically, spiritually, socially, athletically, whatever) and decided to send them to Shiloh?

Maybe someone ought to report Bentonville to the state for unfair recruiting of kids with autism!

22 kids tranferring into Shiloh over 10 years,and they played football....my kid is one of them, and he is a bench warmer.  So, at most 21 starters over 10 years.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 10:04:29 am
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on July 26, 2009, 08:20:13 pm
Quote from: Mulerider on July 26, 2009, 06:44:56 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 23, 2009, 07:52:03 pm
But how can a private school argue Coach Tice's point? I saw that on Hogville as well. If you don't want your child in a public classroom why would you expect them to be allowed on a public field/court? I don't know any situation where a private school kid can use public school resources except in sports. It may exist.

Argue that and I'll buy it.
I have friends with kids at Shiloh and half really want a christian education for their kids while the other just want their kids  in a private school (prestige, hands-on). I don't understand it in NWA because schools here are really good. I don't know LR area to make an assumption.

Private schools have access to a variety of things that public schools do other than sports.  Private schools students can ride the same school buses as public school students.  Private's can also be reimbursed for text books and other educational resources. 

On top of that, the AAA is a private organization that has a ruling membership so this has nothing to do with the educational side handled by the state.  Its apples and oranges.

Private school parents pay the same state taxes that public school parents do. Thats why they should expect their kids to be able to share the same locker rooms as public school kids.

Yes they do, and then the public school that student would have attended loses $5,500 per student per year in additional funding from the government.

I know you don't pay any where near $5,500 per year per student in taxes for kids you have in School, Do the math!

Maybe your whole team could share one portable  locker outside the building, because by your reasoning that's all you paid for.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 27, 2009, 10:18:04 am
Quote from: Bville.Bobcat on July 26, 2009, 08:20:13 pm
Private school parents pay the same state taxes that public school parents do. Thats why they should expect their kids to be able to share the same locker rooms as public school kids.
Private school parents pay the same taxes that give them the right to attend public school. You can't just pick which part of tax money you want to use. Once you have declined the right to attend public school, you shouldn't be allowed to compete with them in sports. You wanted your child out of that setting so why is Friday night ok to put them in it?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 11:43:43 am
Billy062...over the course of my children's schooling I've paid the government thousands of dollars of school taxes I haven't used...my choice, but it adds up over the years....certainly enough to use a field and a locker room every once in a while.  Even though a school system loses the dollars when a kid goes to private, the state does not.  So the state can then distribute more dollars over less kids.  Clearly, the state and public schools benefit from private school parents not using the $$$.  Besides, over a 2 year span it actually doesn't cost the public schools anything since half the games are home.

AAAspectator...wow.  Either you join the public schools or you can not use a single facility from public schools (despite the fact we are tax payers also)...including using their football locker room and field every other year!  Reminder, half the games that private schools play against public schools are at a private school facility...at no charge.  The net cost to the public schools is $0.  Please don't try to argue separation of church and state on this one because not even the liberal court system will back up your flawed logic. 

It is pretty simple.  People want to kick out the private schools because they do not want to step up and compete.  They hide under the "unfair" boundries, so-called recruiting, can't use public school facilities once you opt out, etc. 

The kids won't always be able to eliminate competition in life...sooner or later they have to compete and sometimes they might actually have a disadvantage that they need to overcome.  Some will through dedication and hard work; some won't and will blame it on an unfair system. 
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 11:53:48 am
ArkBuc- My son's were accepted and planned to attend Rockhurst High school at $10,000 ea per year, when they were 8th Graders, We transferred to Arkansas when my oldest was beginning his Freshman year, Don't tell me what you think you are entitled to and how you think money is distributed from the federal and state Governments, I have researched this over and over the last 10 years before I made my decisions and It's pretty cut and dry what happens and where the money goes.

If you choose to go to a private school fine, Stay there!  It's like a country club, pick and choose your members but don't cry like a baby if no one wants to play with you.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: AAAspectator on July 27, 2009, 12:21:25 pm
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 11:43:43 am
It is pretty simple.  People want to kick out the private schools because they do not want to step up and compete.  They hide under the "unfair" boundries, so-called recruiting, can't use public school facilities once you opt out, etc. 

Hide? What's fair about Shiloh getting kids from Bentonville, Rogers, Fayetteville, and Springdale to play a team made up completely of kids from one 2000 population town?

Step up & compete?-No one is saying they don't want to compete. If you read Coach Tice's statement it's simple. Let people that do not want their kids in public school compete with other non public school kids. Regardless of how the vote goes, one thing is for certain, the AAA public school members will start making things harder on the non-public. And all of this could have been avoided
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 12:31:00 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 27, 2009, 12:21:25 pm
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 11:43:43 am
It is pretty simple.  People want to kick out the private schools because they do not want to step up and compete.  They hide under the "unfair" boundries, so-called recruiting, can't use public school facilities once you opt out, etc. 

Hide? What's fair about Shiloh getting kids from Bentonville, Rogers, Fayetteville, and Springdale to play a team made up completely of kids from one 2000 population town?
Step up & compete?-No one is saying they don't want to compete. If you read Coach Tice's statement it's simple. Let people that do not want their kids in public school compete with other non public school kids. Regardless of how the vote goes, one thing is for certain, the AAA public school members will start making things harder on the non-public. And all of this could have been avoided

Hide- You know that was a joke!

How about this, if 20 Kids that go to $hiloh would have gone to Bentonville, Then pay us the $5,500 per student we lost from federal and state funding or $110,000.00 This year for those 20 students and we will be happy to let you use our locker rooms when you play us!  Because you know we pay the same taxes as you do ARKBuc .
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 12:34:53 pm
Billyo62.  I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything.  Of course the public schools can decide to limit their competition and not play private schools.  I simply saying that the net cost to the public schools to play private schools is $0 (maybe $1 or $2 perhaps).  So, no logic that it actually cost the public schools money to play private schools.  The state gets my $$ whether I send my kids to private schools or not.  So, it saves the state money because now they don't have to bus, educate etc.  Certainly, some systems lose and some gain, but overall the state benefits from kids going to private schools.

Your country club analogy is interesting.  People who belong to private golf clubs can still use public courses, even those owned by a city or state.  They just pay the same as everyone else.   Why would it not be the same for high school football teams?  Private school parents paid for those schools as well as public school parents.

Guess what, I played tennis the other night on a public school tennis court!!!  Should I get kicked off the court while parents who send their kids to that school get to use the courts at night???  I helped pay for those courts as well.

This logic of opting out of the public schools means you opt out of using public facilities has no basis.

Billyo62, I sometimes wonder why I send my kids to Shiloh, especially when I can get them a good free education in the area.  I'm not saying my decision is the right decision for everyone who can cough up the extra $$$.  It was not and is not an easy decision for us either (I certainly would like that $$$ now to help fund college).  But, making a decision to go to private schools does not preclude someone from every using public school facilities, it actually saves the state $$, and it is basically cost neutral since the public schools play games on private school facilities as well.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 12:39:13 pm
Not sure what Rockhurst has to do with anything.  It is a nice college, don't know much about the HS.

Personally, I think a parent paying taxes should be entitle to ANYTHING a public school offers (subject to adequate capacity.)

If I home school and want to try out for basketball, that should be OK.  If I want to take Spanish V and Calculus 2 and those two classes have 8 people in them, then I ought to be able to sit it, whether I am a private school student or home schooled.  So what if I take English and History at PA.

Do you really thing the Department of Education refunds that $5000 to the taxpayers?  It just goes somewhere else in the system.  Hopefully to other school, but it may end up in administration.  Private schools are NOT a drain on the public school.  Imagine what would happen if every private student in LR decided to attend public school next year.  The district couldn't provide facitities, transportation or teachers.

Me, I'd like to see the tax money spent on education, not turf fields, non-teaching coaches, and travel expenses.

But I am not saying that I think there is a RIGHT for private school to play (thought it could cost the AAA a couple of million to see what the courts think) but not sure I see the disadvantage.

Seems like most of the school around Subiaco complained when the were moved out the conference.  Catholic High seems to get nothing but praise from their opponents.  Didn't see anyone signing petitions to ban Lutheran, St Joe, or Epsicopal from playing public schools.

I guess your logic will extend to banning private school attendees and graduates from using public transportation, public libraries, city parks, public restrooms, and holding public office.

I think it has been years since private school were founded to AVOID anything.  Now they seemed to be centered on OFFERING enviroments not offered in public school.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 12:40:50 pm
And personally, I can't think of one part of Tice's statement that makes him sound educated, just bitter and envious.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 12:45:09 pm
Read my post above.... the 192 students at $hiloh take approximately $1,000,000 dollars away from the public schools every year in State and Federal Funding.

I have no problem with private schools , like I said... before I moved to Arkansas I was planning on sending my son's to private school.

If you want to be private...be private that is your right.

But if you did it because of Religious reasons or Educational superiority  then you should have no problem with not being allowed to participate in the public arena in athletics that you choose to abandon.

My Decision to go private before I moved was Education and Athletics.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 12:52:27 pm
John- in Reference to Rockhust College... I never said anything about them....Rockhurst High school is Bigger than any private high school in Arkansas and has gone through these same issues that seem to cause so many head aches in Arkansas.

You go to Rockhurst because of Education!

Sports are awesome because parents and students that are good athletes want to go to a school with an unbelievable academic record!  It's like Icing on the cake!

Rockhurst is on record as saying let us play public or make us play private, we could care less!  Look it up!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 12:52:51 pm
So what does the state DO with the $1,000,000 give it to the Lottery Director?

I think I heard it cost at least $7,000 to educate a kid.  Judging from the private schools (unless they are generating a profit) it may run as high as $10.000

So those 192 students will cost $1.9 million to educate, but they bring in $1,000,000    ?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 12:57:18 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 12:52:51 pm
So what does the state DO with the $1,000,000 give it to the Lottery Director?

I think I heard it cost at least $7,000 to educate a kid.  Judging from the private schools (unless they are generating a profit) it may run as high as $10.000

So those 192 students will cost $1.9 million to educate, but they bring in $1,000,000    ?

No they bring in NOTHING... ZERO... Because they are not Going to school at the public schools..

The Balance is paid for by Everyones taxes... even the Grandma's and Grandpa's and the gay people with no children!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 01:22:22 pm
No

If Shiloh closed and 200 students move to a public high school, those schools would receive $1 million + funding above what the receive now.

But in return for that $1,000,000 they have to educate 200 students.
Eight more teachers at an average salary of $42K, or $55 with benefits.  8 new classrooms (have no idea what those trailers cost.  If the PUBLIC schools spend as much on education as the PRIVATE it is going to cost more to educate them than they receive in State and Federal funding.

Now I agree, it is unlikely they will raise taxes, so they just take $1.750.000 from all the other students and schools.......but closing Shiloh is going to COST the school system, the education department and the tax payers money, not save it.

(So having it open must be good for the opposite reason)

Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 01:24:41 pm
You are right in that private school kids bring nothing to the public school coffers.  But they cost nothing also.

In some areas of the country, if the private schools closed the public schools would collapse since they could not afford all the classrooms, buses, teachers, etc. 

Arkansas private schools overall are rare and fairly small.  Amazing they create so much controversy.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 01:29:32 pm

Attention John:

Adding 20 or 30 students to one area school with 3,100 students " Bentonville"  would not require additional teachers or Classrooms...  that is just silly!  but would add $110,000 to $165,000 dollars in additional funding for those students to be used for the benefit of all the students at Bentonville including the new ones!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 27, 2009, 01:34:52 pm
I don't see the problem here, other than some schools/parents mad because SC ran up the score BIG DEAL. Work harder, deal wit it, these same tactics are the things that's making our society so SOFT. O, they're to good lets get rid of them. That's called running away from problems. I mean you have some jerks that go to private schools and you have some in public that's life buddy. Regardless public/private, Friday night, or whatever, these kids will have to communicate with each other in life. So we parents should be willing to put our pride aside.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 01:40:52 pm
You may like a high school with 3000 students, I don't.

The idea that you can just throw 30 kids in such a school without making a difference explains a lot.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 01:43:39 pm
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on July 27, 2009, 01:34:52 pm
I don't see the problem here, other than some schools/parents mad because SC ran up the score BIG DEAL. Work harder, deal wit it, these same tactics are the things that's making our society so SOFT. O, they're to good lets get rid of them. That's called running away from problems. I mean you have some jerks that go to private schools and you have some in public that's life buddy. Regardless public/private, Friday night, or whatever, these kids will have to communicate with each other in life. So we parents should be willing to put our pride aside.

I agree with you, but one of the problems when you have little schools playing little schools this will always come up, it rarely gets much mention in the Big school Format because the numbers of eligible players is great enough that the recruiting thing doesn't make near the impact as it does with little schools.

This is really a little school issue and I think the little privates should play with themselves ( No Jokes Please ).

The Big Private schools should be allowed to venture into public athletics at the Highest level only!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 01:47:37 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 01:40:52 pm
You may like a high school with 3000 students, I don't.

The idea that you can just throw 30 kids in such a school without making a difference explains a lot.

Oh Boo-Hoo... I never said I liked High schools of 3,000.

Just the reality up here by $hiloh.

I said we would not have to hire any new teachers or build new classrooms for a .006 population increase in our school,  not that those kids would not make a difference...that was a cheap shot!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 02:07:54 pm
I have never had to deal with Shiloh, but thought they were a bunch of poor sports since I first saw their name in the sports pages 15? years ago.

You'll never hear me justifying the example they set on the field.  If I was in their conference, I'd let em come to town, buy tickete and refreshments and forfeit at the coin flip andhave a intrasquad practice, see how they like 10 forfeits in a row before playoffs........but I am a poor sport.

My problem is that people who have trouble with one school feel like they have to impose a solution on everyone.  (Why not this one, you make the final during two years of a cycle, you automatically move up next cycle.....same for public and private.) 

I can't imagine the problem is whether private or public should associate (of course they should and will throughout their life) but where and how to place private schools so they can play at a competitive level.

The issues with BIG public schools, Catholic, CAC, LRCA, PA are not the same as with St. Joe, Sacred Heart, Lutheran, Episcopal, Subiaco, and Abundant Life.  Shiloh's arrogance puts them in their own class.  A solution which work perfectly for one doesn't work well for the others.

The question should be, "how does the AAA make competitve classes and conferences" as opposed to saying, "Gosh this is hard, we can't figure it out.....it's agreed that we all hate Shiloh so let's try to screw them"

I agree with part of your point that a large school could absorb 20 students.  I don't think the tax dollars which follow them would make much difference in the big picture either.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 02:14:52 pm
John, believe it or not , I'm on your side..  I like private schools and all they stand for, and you are correct it's alway's one or two that cause all these arguments, but I believe it is a privlege if the public schools invite a private school to play at the public facilities and it should be the same way with the public schools being invited to play at a private facilities.

But you choose to be be private, so stay private unless we invite you!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 02:31:52 pm
I'm not old enough to remember, but wasn't Catholic a founding member of the the AAA?

Maybe it NEVER was a public school entity.  Just because their are more public school members doesn't mean they should kick out other schools.

Personally, I couldn't care less about basketball and baseball, but slight more about football and soccer.

In my mind, the problem is that the AAA governs band, and tennis, and choir, and chess club, and cheerleading, and Quiz Bowl, etc.  It isn't Arkansas ATHLETICS it is Arkansas ACTIVITIES. 

Heck, if i am at Des Arc and putting on a wrestling tournament and I am happy as a clam if CAC, Episcopal and Catholic show up.  The more the merrier.  It is a competition, the best wins.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 02:35:13 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 02:31:52 pm
I'm not old enough to remember, but wasn't Catholic a founding member of the the AAA?

Maybe it NEVER was a public school entity.  Just because their are more public school members doesn't mean they should kick out other schools.

Personally, I couldn't care less about basketball and baseball, but slight more about football and soccer.

In my mind, the problem is that the AAA governs band, and tennis, and choir, and chess club, and cheerleading, and Quiz Bowl, etc.  It isn't Arkansas ATHLETICS it is Arkansas ACTIVITIES. 

Heck, if i am at Des Arc and putting on a wrestling tournament and I am happy as a clam if CAC, Episcopal and Catholic show up.  The more the merrier.  It is a competition, the best wins.

Are you a wrestler?  Because that would be very interesting!
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 03:03:50 pm
Des Arc put on one of the first HS tourneys in Arkansas 2 years ago.  Did a nice job. 

Another issue I should have mentioned about is insurance.  As you know, no school could afford to let kids be involved in contact sports without insurance.

A AAA requirement VOIDS insurance if a AAA teams plays a "non AAA" opponent.  You can't play a AAU team, an American Legion team, a club soccer team etc, or a private school if they were excluded from the AAA.

Does it make sense if Catholic wants to play Central to forbid it.  If Des Arc want three more teams at its wrestling tourney to forbid it.  If Perryville needs another team to fill in its Holiday Bracket to forbid it. If Greenwood straps one on and schedule Shiloh to forbid it.

To limit Catholic's state wide potential opponents to 20, and all but 5 are a quarter their enrollment or less.

What purpose does that serve?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 03:20:59 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 03:03:50 pm
Des Arc put on one of the first HS tourneys in Arkansas 2 years ago.  Did a nice job. 

Another issue I should have mentioned about is insurance.  As you know, no school could afford to let kids be involved in contact sports without insurance.

A AAA requirement VOIDS insurance if a AAA teams plays a "non AAA" opponent.  You can't play a AAU team, an American Legion team, a club soccer team etc, or a private school if they were excluded from the AAA.

Does it make sense if Catholic wants to play Central to forbid it.  If Des Arc want three more teams at its wrestling tourney to forbid it.  If Perryville needs another team to fill in its Holiday Bracket to forbid it. If Greenwood straps one on and schedule Shiloh to forbid it.

To limit Catholics state wide potential opponents to 20, and all but 5 are a quarter their enrollment or less.

What purpose does that serve?

Insurance would not be a problem even if all the schools are not under the AAA Umbrella, has nothing to do with who they compete against , we play teams from Missouri all the time and they are not under the AAA, but they do have insurance coverage that's part of the contract.

As Far a Catholic, I have explained before you get to the big boy stage and nobody really cares that much about privates playing public schools with 2,000 to 2,400 students, recruit or whine all you want, just bring some game on EVERY Friday night!  Cause you ain't playing Pea Ridge and Berryville in the 7A
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 03:42:12 pm

Of the private schools in 4A  and 3A, only two had winning seasons (Shiloh and Harding)

Hard to imagine all this squirming around to avoid playing teams that went 5-8,1-9,4-7, 2-8, 4-6.

BTW, what would Berryville's 2008 record be if Shiloh forfeited their win.?
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 04:16:05 pm
I am going to risk a guess that there is NO WAY the AAA can may a rule that affects "all private schools but Catholic"

So any exemption would be broad, "If you are a private school and want to participate in AAA you must play at the highest level."

So here is a wild scenario:  Catholic stays 7A, Shiloh, PA, LRCA, CAC and PA all decide to stay in AAA and move up.  Which 4 7A teams get bumped down to 6A

Shoot, if LRCA, Harding and AB all decided to move up, the 7A might be all private, plus Bentonville and NLR. 

Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 04:57:49 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 04:16:05 pm
I am going to risk a guess that there is NO WAY the AAA can may a rule that affects "all private schools but Catholic"

So any exemption would be broad, "If you are a private school and want to participate in AAA you must play at the highest level."

So here is a wild scenario:  Catholic stays 7A, Shiloh, PA, LRCA, CAC and PA all decide to stay in AAA and move up.  Which 4 7A teams get bumped down to 6AShoot, if LRCA, Harding and AB all decided to move up, the 7A might be all private, plus Bentonville and NLR. 



Nobody... It's a 6A/7A merge anyway,  maybe we will have enough teams to actually have a classification.... Just don't whine when the 7A west teams dominate everyone like they have the last 3 Years and will this year!  The little private  schools have no Idea how big the 7A West teams have grown to the last couple of years!
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 05:10:00 pm
Well heck, if the privates just have to play at the highest level, I think PA, LRCA, CAC, and Catholic might just suck it up and play.

Shiloh would still rather beat up on someone who doesn't belong on the same field.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 27, 2009, 05:17:14 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 05:10:00 pm
Well heck, if the privates just have to play at the highest level, I think PA, LRCA, CAC, and Catholic might just suck it up and play.

Shiloh would still rather beat up on someone who doesn't belong on the same field.

You may be right!  ;D
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 05:53:44 pm
Although I don't think Shiloh can win consistently in 7A over the course of a conference season (not enough depth), they are not ducking 7A opponents.  7A is ducking them.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 05:56:21 pm
Like UA and ASU
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: AAAspectator on July 27, 2009, 07:49:56 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 04:16:05 pmI am going to risk a guess that there is NO WAY the AAA can may a rule that affects "all private schools but Catholic"

The proposal reads all tuition assistance schools. The Catholic schools do not give tuition assistance.

It's a public relations issue. All the other major private schools have to worry about each other and public schools. In the corner the boosters and leeches of shiloh make the entire state despise their school as they make a profit off it. If there was another private school close, maybe they wouldn't act that way. Until then, the best way to control this one school is a statewide issue. Because they are a member of the AAA, the public schools can't just not play them. I've heard some pretty reliable information as to how NWA is going to slow down. Here's a hint....AAA only governs Sr. high
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 27, 2009, 09:13:38 pm
I know of at least one Catholic boy, in a bad family situation, was told "not to worry" about tuition.

Fortunately, I think that is what THEY SHOULD do.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 28, 2009, 08:49:06 am
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 05:53:44 pm
Although I don't think Shiloh can win consistently in 7A over the course of a conference season (not enough depth), they are not ducking 7A opponents.  7A is ducking them.

Who from the 7A is Ducking a 4A school?
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: AAAspectator on July 28, 2009, 12:46:57 pm
What does a 7A get from beating them? a lot more excuses. But if shiloh was to win, it'd be more of the pinnacle pimps boasting about their greatness.

In my opinion, the best way to shut them up would be send them to 2A where there enrollment puts them.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 28, 2009, 12:54:42 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 28, 2009, 12:46:57 pm
What does a 7A get from beating them? a lot more excuses. But if shiloh was to win, it'd be more of the pinnacle pimps boasting about their greatness.

In my opinion, the best way to shut them up would be send them to 2A where there enrollment puts them.

Exactly, they can call and ask for a game all they want to, big deal, what does a tiny little private school bring to the table for a 7A School ... NOTHING!     Go away or get bigger then maybe we will listen!
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: farfromgroovins on July 28, 2009, 01:25:51 pm
Quote from: AAAspectator on July 28, 2009, 12:46:57 pm
In my opinion, the best way to shut them up would be send them to 2A where there enrollment puts them.

That actually sounds like a great idea. Let them beat the snot out of the other 2A teams for a while then the luster will eventually wear off and they won't be so special anymore. They will cry and cry to "move me up" or "we want to play the big boys" but everyone can ignore them or tell them, "no, you are where you belong."

Maybe we jumped the gun with them (actually, us, my kids go to private school) years ago and should have just rode it out. Playing at a lower classification means the stage isn't as big and the kids want to be noticed. Talent is talent but it is a lot harder to convince D-I schools you are legit when you are mowing over opponents without the same guns.


Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: AAAspectator on July 28, 2009, 06:29:49 pm
That would be classic. Of course the pimps would still boast about "greatest program in the state". Do the Little Rock schools have pimps like their northern corner school?

As much fun as it is to poke holes in their balloon, I think that we all need to just leave it alone. Don't scratch the itch. If they post ignore it. Even better if a mod would delete it. Maybe the vote and us not acknowledging them would make them go away.

I've lost my belief that Rivals is credible. I think the local Rivals guy is in with the pimps. Last post.
Title: Re: A solution to the Private school vs public school feud...
Post by: Tigerfbfan20 on July 29, 2009, 01:10:11 pm
Quote from: outlaw39 on July 08, 2009, 05:53:40 pm


3. I have said MANY times that the answer to the public vs. private whine-fest is for the public schools to man up and put out the same effort getting better that they use trying to get rid of them. Nashville, Junction City, Glen Rose, Rison, etc. are perfect examples of public schools that put forth the effort to beat the privates instead of whining to get rid of them.

Nashville's success over the past years is remarkable. However, their athletic director..oops
Superintendent has worked diligently to move the private schools from Class 3A (now 4A), From the 1.75 multiplier,the current system, and to the pending proposal to establish a seperate Private school playoff system. The athletic director...oops Superintendent was one of 3 AAA directors to give the Private school playoff proposal a do pass vote. 15 directors voted to not pass the proposal. Wonder how Nashville's Superintendent/athletic director will vote on August 4?

So while Nashville has indeed put forth the effort to beat all competition, their administration has put forth considerable effort to get rid of them as well.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 29, 2009, 01:22:30 pm
Nava
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: QPWFB on July 29, 2009, 02:55:43 pm
They don't want rid of them ,just moved to their own conference for playoff action.They would still be apart of AAA.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 29, 2009, 03:07:17 pm
Actually what they should do is move them to the appropriate class based on enrollment. 

Although them to play in a conference and petition every 2 years if they want to move up.

Then do a playoff.

Heck 75% of the privates don't make the playoffs now.  This will give them a chance.

In fact in a few more years Berryville might want to start a conference for "schools that really suck at football" and set up their own playoff too, with a trophy for participation.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 29, 2009, 05:39:51 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 29, 2009, 03:07:17 pm
Actually what they should do is move them to the appropriate class based on enrollment. 

Although them to play in a conference and petition every 2 years if they want to move up.

Then do a playoff.

Heck 75% of the privates don't make the playoffs now.  This will give them a chance.

In fact in a few more years Berryville might want to start a conference for "schools that really suck at football" and set up their own playoff too, with a trophy for participation.

Now that was good, I agree with that totally! Except you forgot about the Pizza Party to go along with the Participation Trophy!  ;D
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: forcephil on July 29, 2009, 07:35:10 pm
And, let's remember to use football to determine conferences for all other sports, too! 
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: QPWFB on July 30, 2009, 06:19:55 am
Don't forget about the non football private schools,just as well put them in 1A that way they can win a few more state titles in all the other sports. Thats the least we could do for them,we owe it to them.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 30, 2009, 07:05:47 am
Quote from: QPWFB on July 30, 2009, 06:19:55 am
Don't forget about the non football private schools,just as well put them in 1A that way they can win a few more state titles in all the other sports. Thats the least we could do for them,we owe it to them.

Do they have 1A soccer, volleyball, and crosscountry, or do they just roll them into the larger groups.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Wahls on July 30, 2009, 07:43:56 am
Quote from: johnharrison on July 30, 2009, 07:05:47 am
Quote from: QPWFB on July 30, 2009, 06:19:55 am
Don't forget about the non football private schools,just as well put them in 1A that way they can win a few more state titles in all the other sports. Thats the least we could do for them,we owe it to them.

Do they have 1A soccer, volleyball, and crosscountry, or do they just roll them into the larger groups.

Soccer starts with 4a. Little bitty 1a Wickes is a 4a soccer school
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 30, 2009, 09:40:21 am
yeah, so setting classifcation by football won't work
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Eddie Goodson on July 30, 2009, 10:07:26 am
Quote from: johnharrison on July 30, 2009, 09:40:21 am
yeah, so setting classifcation by football won't work
IMO, classification should be different for every sport with some sort of power ranking system used to determine the classes. Abandon the classes based solely on population of schools. It could be a factor, but I think recent success should be involved also.

That might mean SC and Nashville end up in the 6A where North Pulaski might end up in the 3A or 4A. Reclassification should be done every year with the previous three seasons used to determine the power ranking.

Borrowing Louisiana's power system would be a start.

Apply the same system to each sport individually.

PA might be 6A in football and 3A in basketball.

The competition would improve at all levels.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on July 30, 2009, 10:11:09 am
I'd love to see SCS in 6A. Then we would show you the antidote to the crybaby tactics that the AAA has before them.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 30, 2009, 10:12:52 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on July 30, 2009, 10:11:09 am
I'd love to see SCS in 6A. Then we would show you the antidote to the crybaby tactics that the AAA has before them.

I'd love to see Bentonville in the 4A or 5A in basketball ( Not saying we would do any better, but maybe we would look a little better )  ;)
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Eddie Goodson on July 30, 2009, 10:20:42 am
The cream would rise to the top every year and the rest would stratify into competitiveness. It would put a stop to the complaints. 

The baseball classes would be really changed too.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 30, 2009, 10:24:21 am
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 30, 2009, 10:20:42 am
The cream would rise to the top every year and the rest would stratify into competitiveness. It would put a stop to the complaints. 

The baseball classes would be really changed too.

Baseball would be the biggest change of any sport- IMO.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on July 30, 2009, 10:52:33 am
Now that's a great idea. The AAA don't realize how much money they would make state wide. Eddie, get the wheels turning.
Title: Private School Debate
Post by: JJ on July 30, 2009, 02:46:18 pm
What do you think will be the outcome next week? Lot of opinions. I think
everyoe is a loser if the Privates are kicked out, but a lot of hard feeling on this subject. I like what we have now, but that is just me.
Title: Private vote
Post by: JJ on July 30, 2009, 02:47:40 pm
Pass or fail?
Title: Re: Private School Debate
Post by: T-Wacker on July 30, 2009, 03:05:43 pm
Quote from: JJ on July 30, 2009, 02:46:18 pm
What do you think will be the outcome next week? Lot of opinions. I think
everyoe is a loser if the Privates are kicked out, but a lot of hard feeling on this subject. I like what we have now, but that is just me.

I don't know, but please don't use the words "privates" and "kicked" in the same sentence!
Title: Re: Private vote
Post by: parpar on July 31, 2009, 08:51:42 am
I suspect it will get a majority vote, but not the 2/3 necessary.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: fourpeat on July 31, 2009, 09:42:02 am
I believe that if Shiloh gets moved to 7A, they will go from having 6-7 d-1 athletes, to 15-20.  It will promote their program more than you can imagine.  Dropping them back to 2A can't possibly be fair to the other 2A schools who don't have access to the NWA metroplex athletes.  No matter which classification they're in is unacceptable.  Dropping them from playoff participation, or just giving them their own playoffs is the only fair thing to do.  As I've "whined" about for over a decade now, I'll say it again: access to athletes is the issue, and some of the private schools take advantage of that access, while others don't.  The AAA has allowed them to form these all-star teams, and now, the AAA has the power now to change this.  I sencerely hope that they make the right choice.
Title: Re: Private School Debate
Post by: JJ on July 31, 2009, 09:48:03 am
Good point T-W!
Title: Re: Private vote
Post by: JJ on July 31, 2009, 10:03:56 am
Kind of hope you are right as I like the set up we have now. Everyone is a loser if it passes! Everyone that likes COMPETITION anyway. The biggest loser for the moment at least wil be Private Football programs, but everyone will suffer some and eventually with gates. My concern is the national trend for folks to be afraid of competition. The mentality that we need more classes and more State Champs. I think Greenwood and great programs want to play the best, but there is a group out there that is only interested an EASY set up. I will never understand how any of us PUBLICS CAN SAY RECRUITING is not on both sides and better regulated on the Privates side. I think beating Shilo and PA is the neatest thing in the world and I am going to be upset if the NON COMPETITIVES take that away from us! Life will go on what ever happens and just hope we quit watering down the COMPETITION eventually. The Privates will survive-they always have. I am a strong believer in Public Education, but America is supposed to be free for all.
Title: Re: Private School Debate
Post by: c_bobcat_pioneers on July 31, 2009, 10:09:41 am
Privates being kicked out=loser lol.    Hey, why haven't your threads been merged?
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 10:56:05 am
Does Subiaco collect all star teams
Does Lutheran collect all star team
Does St. Joe collect all star teams
Does Episcopal collect all star teams
Does Arkansas Baptist collect all star teams
Does Catholic collect all start teams
Does Union Christian collect all star teams

You even have a hard time convincing me that PA,CAC,LRCA collect "all" star teams because they would have to pick one or the other.


You, and everyone else, knows that in most of these schools their players have been in the schools for years, a decade even. 

Sure, Shiloh gets a few players who show up for HS ball in the same way Glen Rose, Nashville, PC and Barton get "transfers" who want to play for a championship contender.

Why do they play for Shiloh?  Among other reasons, exposure and opportunities for college scholarships.  Kick Shiloh out of the playoffs and they will be a charter member of a regional playoff system that will give them exposure far beyond what they have, giving them the number of D1 athletes you listed above. 

Like Evangel, they will have their heydey and decline.  Waiting will do the same thing as dumping on all the private schools.

Me, I'd like to see a stop to the "pseudo" transfers to small town powerhouses that dominate year after year.

Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: transplant on July 31, 2009, 11:06:15 am
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 10:56:05 am

I'd like to see a stop to the "pseudo" transfers to small town powerhouses that dominate year after year.


Have your AD take proposed legislation to the next AAA meeting, see what the members of the organization say. 
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on July 31, 2009, 11:08:54 am
What do you mean by pseudo transfers?
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 11:15:55 am
Pseudo transfers -  kids who have lived in one town all their life and "move" into a rented shack (owned by a school supporter) in a new town, but their parents and siblings just happen to work and attend school and church in the "other house", or move in with an "aunt" in order to play for a powerhouse.
Title: Re: Private School Debate
Post by: JJ on July 31, 2009, 11:22:09 am
=All of us losers
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 11:22:19 am
Quote from: transplant on July 31, 2009, 11:06:15 am
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 10:56:05 am

I'd like to see a stop to the "pseudo" transfers to small town powerhouses that dominate year after year.


Have your AD take proposed legislation to the next AAA meeting, see what the members of the organization say. 

Heck no, I don't really want it to be passed.  The "have not" schools who lose their homegrown talents to the Greenwood, Barton, Glen Rose and Nashville resent it almost as much as they resent Shiloh.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: JJ on July 31, 2009, 11:33:47 am
The vote is here and we have heard all the opinions. Will it pass?
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: c_bobcat_pioneers on July 31, 2009, 12:16:30 pm
JJ, shut up with the repeat question until we learn the answer.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: JJ on July 31, 2009, 03:30:27 pm
Do I have to? LOL
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on July 31, 2009, 04:34:08 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 11:15:55 am
Pseudo transfers -  kids who have lived in one town all their life and "move" into a rented shack (owned by a school supporter) in a new town, but their parents and siblings just happen to work and attend school and church in the "other house", or move in with an "aunt" in order to play for a powerhouse.
So if my son moves to Hot Springs to live with me (CMS district) but wants a chance at a state championship ring and tells me he wants to go to Lake Hamilton and I utilize school choice to do that, that's a psuedo transfer?

One can say what they want but if that were to happen (actually it almost did....he's in Denham Springs, LA with his mom) I would have to oblige him. You play for the ring.  Any other reason is just wrong.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 04:43:10 pm
Sure, and it is no different that a kid choosing to go to Shilow (yuk) for the same reason.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 04:51:42 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 04:43:10 pm
Sure, and it is no different that a kid choosing to go to Shilow (yuk) for the same reason.
As Ned Flanders would say, "Abso-doodily-utely." Glad someone else shares that opinion. IMO, the manipulation of school choice among people in public schools is 10X to 20X more of a problem than transfers to a private school.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on July 31, 2009, 04:56:59 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 04:51:42 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 04:43:10 pm
Sure, and it is no different that a kid choosing to go to Shilow (yuk) for the same reason.
As Ned Flanders would say, "Abso-doodily-utely." Glad someone else shares that opinion. IMO, the manipulation of school choice among people in public schools is 10X to 20X more of a problem than transfers to a private school.
So you're saying my son should pass up a chance to play for the jewelry?

What if it was your kid?  You ain't gotta lie.....you know you would.....

Look I am not going to argue about it.....but school choice exists.  It's a sign of the times. 

If you think I'm going to deny my child a once-in-a-lifetime shot at a championship just because it's "right" or "wrong," you're crazier than I thought.....
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 05:03:19 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on July 31, 2009, 04:56:59 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 04:51:42 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 04:43:10 pm
Sure, and it is no different that a kid choosing to go to Shilow (yuk) for the same reason.
As Ned Flanders would say, "Abso-doodily-utely." Glad someone else shares that opinion. IMO, the manipulation of school choice among people in public schools is 10X to 20X more of a problem than transfers to a private school.
So you're saying my son should pass up a chance to play for the jewelry?

What if it was your kid?  You ain't gotta lie.....you know you would.....

Look I am not going to argue about it.....but school choice exists.  It's a sign of the times. 

If you think I'm going to deny my child a once-in-a-lifetime shot at a championship just because it's "right" or "wrong," you're crazier than I thought.....
I'm saying that the AAA, the governing body of this state's HS athletic programs, says is it improper and illegal to use school choice as a mask for athletics transfers. It's a rule. The rest means nothing.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on July 31, 2009, 06:16:26 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 05:03:19 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on July 31, 2009, 04:56:59 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 04:51:42 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 04:43:10 pm
Sure, and it is no different that a kid choosing to go to Shilow (yuk) for the same reason.
As Ned Flanders would say, "Abso-doodily-utely." Glad someone else shares that opinion. IMO, the manipulation of school choice among people in public schools is 10X to 20X more of a problem than transfers to a private school.
So you're saying my son should pass up a chance to play for the jewelry?

What if it was your kid?  You ain't gotta lie.....you know you would.....

Look I am not going to argue about it.....but school choice exists.  It's a sign of the times. 

If you think I'm going to deny my child a once-in-a-lifetime shot at a championship just because it's "right" or "wrong," you're crazier than I thought.....
I'm saying that the AAA, the governing body of this state's HS athletic programs, says is it improper and illegal to use school choice as a mask for athletics transfers. It's a rule. The rest means nothing.

I was pushed out of basketball in High school because 2 Brothers " Transferred " to my high school,  Happens all the time, they broke no rules, may have ruffled a few feathers, they did it to play for our coach, he retired with over 900 wins and many state titles at the highest level. The high school they came from was a joke and no one had any respect for their coach.  After their transfer, both brothers got 4- year college educations paid for.. how is that bad!
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 07:05:49 pm
Quote from: Billyo62 on July 31, 2009, 06:16:26 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 05:03:19 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on July 31, 2009, 04:56:59 pm
Quote from: Eddie Goodson on July 31, 2009, 04:51:42 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on July 31, 2009, 04:43:10 pm
Sure, and it is no different that a kid choosing to go to Shilow (yuk) for the same reason.
As Ned Flanders would say, "Abso-doodily-utely." Glad someone else shares that opinion. IMO, the manipulation of school choice among people in public schools is 10X to 20X more of a problem than transfers to a private school.
So you're saying my son should pass up a chance to play for the jewelry?

What if it was your kid?  You ain't gotta lie.....you know you would.....

Look I am not going to argue about it.....but school choice exists.  It's a sign of the times. 

If you think I'm going to deny my child a once-in-a-lifetime shot at a championship just because it's "right" or "wrong," you're crazier than I thought.....
I'm saying that the AAA, the governing body of this state's HS athletic programs, says is it improper and illegal to use school choice as a mask for athletics transfers. It's a rule. The rest means nothing.

I was pushed out of basketball in High school because 2 Brothers " Transferred " to my high school,  Happens all the time, they broke no rules, may have ruffled a few feathers, they did it to play for our coach, he retired with over 900 wins and many state titles at the highest level. The high school they came from was a joke and no one had any respect for their coach.  After their transfer, both brothers got 4- year college educations paid for.. how is that bad!
Again, it is a rule established by the AAA that prohibits using school choice for athletic purposes without sitting out a year if it happens after July 1st going into the tenth grade. I didn't make the rule, the schools in this state agreed to the rule.

These rules are only a few years old. What happened years ago now means nothing under the current rules set.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Quite Frankly on July 31, 2009, 07:28:26 pm
It's apparent some simply don't condone the use of any rules or at the minimum follow them.  It's not a select and choose situation.  You're either in or your out.  I continue to love the stretches people will go to for rationalizing blatant rule violations.

These very rules are still primarily the source of so many of the issues that plague our system.  People keep circumventing them in whatever way they see fit and in turn retard the system toward their own advantage at the expense of those that don't.

As discussed on other threads, the middle men are now the enablers that create the most problems.  People don't see them at the same threat level like they do a  staff coach from another school.  But they should.  It was the entire reason behind my Editorial #3 and since it was written it's played out in more scenarios.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on August 01, 2009, 12:08:09 am
Hypothetically QF-what would you do if your son goes to suck-arss school A...and comes to you and tells you he wants to go to Championship School B because he wants a shot at a ring. I understand the rules are there. But this is YOUR kid. Forget this thread for a minute. What do you do?
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on August 01, 2009, 12:10:26 am
Do you see what I'm sayin though? It would be nearly impossible for me to deny my child that opportunity.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on August 01, 2009, 12:12:42 am
Wow. How did that post 3x? I didn't do it. Lol.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: c_bobcat_pioneers on August 01, 2009, 12:36:26 am
LOLololol
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Quite Frankly on August 01, 2009, 08:25:12 am
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on August 01, 2009, 12:08:09 am
Hypothetically QF-what would you do if your son goes to suck-arss school A...and comes to you and tells you he wants to go to Championship School B because he wants a shot at a ring. I understand the rules are there. But this is YOUR kid. Forget this thread for a minute. What do you do?

Quote from: gatecrasherfan on August 01, 2009, 12:10:26 am
Do you see what I'm sayin though? It would be nearly impossible for me to deny my child that opportunity.

It would not be the primary focus of my or my child's life to win a state championship with a high school football team.  I'd be sure as to not try an replace the void in my own life(as many do) by trying to live vicariously through my 16 year old to justify some failure in my own athletic career and life.  I would however instill in him the value of competition, personal development, working hard, developing relationships that he wouldn't turn his back on and loyalty.  All the while I'd be simultaneously stressing to him that his adolescence and entire high school experience would not be totally centered around athletics.  I'd rather stress scholastic, friendship, maturity and natural achievement within the framework of were he lives and how that develops naturally.

Anyone can 'move' to find a championship.  I fail to see how that comes close to earning one were you are at or even more importantly trying to be your best were you are and letting the results be a bonus.

So, to answer your question.  He'll stay were he was and do the best he can with his team and not tuck tail and run.  It's called life's lessons. 

Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 01, 2009, 09:28:48 am
Gate,I see what you are saying, but QF has a point.When I was in 10th grade myself and 2 others were approached by 2 different coaches aid to come play for a certain championship school. We listen, but we stayed simply because we worked hard to get my hometown team a favorite to get to the Rock. We lost a heartbreaker in the 1st round, but theirs nothing I would do to change that. If we would have went on to the other schools and got a ring it would have been meaningless( don't get me wrong we wanted a ring). We would have been used to put a program over the top. It's like a player way past his prime signing on with team just to say I got a ring, means nothing in my opinion.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on August 01, 2009, 10:37:30 am
I see yall's points. And they are very valid. Let me just say that I never once said anything to my son. He entertained the idea of moving to Hot Springs to live with me-but he wanted to play for a team with a legit shot at a title. My only point was that I wasn't going to argue with him. He's down at a 5A school in Baton Rouge with his mom. They won a title 3-4 yrs ago down there. He'll get a chance. But if he decides he wants to live with dad and wants to go to Lake Hamilton I'm not denying him.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 01, 2009, 10:52:33 am
Ok, well that's different. Of course you put him in the best situation as possible. My bad, handle your business playa. Now let me ask you this Gate? I know who you would support, but if LH (with your son) and ELdo meet in the Rock how hard would it be.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Billyo62 on August 01, 2009, 10:58:26 am
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on August 01, 2009, 10:52:33 am
Ok, well that's different. Of course you put him in the best situation as possible. My bad, handle your business playa. Now let me ask you this Gate? I know who you would support, but if LH (with your son) and ELdo meet in the Rock how hard would it be.

GC---- I think would go with a "RING in The Family"  Just my guess! Wouldn't be that hard!
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on August 01, 2009, 11:21:09 am
It would be a little awkward at first thought-but I would have to don the maroon and yellow! Lol!
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 01, 2009, 11:48:52 am
lol, lil JR. could tease ol pops.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Rudehog on August 03, 2009, 09:48:14 pm
Quote from: gatecrasherfan on August 01, 2009, 10:37:30 am
I see yall's points. And they are very valid. Let me just say that I never once said anything to my son. He entertained the idea of moving to Hot Springs to live with me-but he wanted to play for a team with a legit shot at a title. My only point was that I wasn't going to argue with him. He's down at a 5A school in Baton Rouge with his mom. They won a title 3-4 yrs ago down there. He'll get a chance. But if he decides he wants to live with dad and wants to go to Lake Hamilton I'm not denying him.

Then don't deny him, simply move into Lake Hamilton's attendence zone and problem solved. After all you would want your property tax funds going to your childs school and there would be no controversy
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: gatecrasher on August 03, 2009, 09:57:24 pm
Or he could use school choice. I'm buying a house elsewhere in Garland County. I wouldn't be moving.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: GLion Alum on August 04, 2009, 02:05:19 pm
While most will find fault with today's vote by the AAA, I think it was probably the best possible outcome.  A private school playoff system would be a farce in Arkansas where there are so few private schools fielding football teams.  The vote of 114-93 against Prop 7 and 247-25 for Prop 8 tells me a couple of things:

1.  There are schools that realize separate playoffs wouldn't work  well, but didn't want to side with the private schools--65 schools voted on Prop 8 but abstained from voting on Prop 7.

2.  The private schools have a real problem with their relations with the public schools.  All this talk about the whiners, the public schools just needing to work harder, etc., hasn't gone over well.  My suggestion to the private schools--concentrate your efforts more on improving your relations with the public schools and less on hyping your players, your programs, your championships, your margins of victory, etc. 

All of us want to be "Winners,"  but, if we are fortunate enough to win, it should be with class, showing some sensitivity to the feelings of the loser, and it should be done on a level playing field, rules-wise.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Cabotfan on August 06, 2009, 01:08:06 pm
Quote from: GLion Alum on August 04, 2009, 02:05:19 pm
1.  There are schools that realize separate playoffs wouldn't work  well, but didn't want to side with the private schools--65 schools voted on Prop 8 but abstained from voting on Prop 7.

Quote from: Coach DePriest, PA on August 06, 2009, 11:54:29 am
It is obvious that a lot of people, including media members such as Wally Hall, severely misunderstand who can vote on each of these proposals.  No one (or hardly anyone) at the meeting abstained from voting on proposal 7.  By rule, only high schools could vote on proposals #2, #4, #6, and #7.  206 voted on 2 and 4, 202 voted on 6, and 207 voted on 7.  Since proposal #8 affected grades 7-12, all schools were allowed to vote, so middle schools accounted for the extra 65 votes.

I just wanted to clear that up.  Had I not known how the system worked, I would have thought the same thing.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: onlyanobserver on August 06, 2009, 01:56:11 pm
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 01:24:41 pm
You are right in that private school kids bring nothing to the public school coffers.  But they cost nothing also.

Arkansas private schools overall are rare and fairly small.  Amazing they create so much controversy.

Parents of private school kids still pay property taxes that go to the public school district they're in. So I don't get your point. It doesn't exempt you from paying a tax benefiting public schools where you live.
Title: Maybe it's your fault if you get beat 72 - 0
Post by: johnharrison on August 17, 2009, 06:03:27 pm
Surely clock management by the losing team plays a role in huge blow-outs.

Heck there are only 16 minutes to use up.

How much time per series could I use up by taking all the play clock and falling on the ball?

Could I exend it much by being slow to get up?

What if I actually let the clock run out?  How long to get the penalty marked off and reset.  How about it coach calls the line judge over to "chat with him" about the call?

I guess the QB could see how far down-field he could throw the call and let the WR take his time.

Obviously I could use close to 2 minutes, but how much longer could I go without a FD.  3 minutes, 4 if the refs weren't pushing it?

Any other subtle (or not so subtle ways to get out of town)

Yeah, I know we are always supposed to try to win, but face it, if the sportsmanship rule is in place, you are going to lose.  Why throw a interception of first down.?
Title: Re: Maybe it's your fault if you get beat 72 - 0
Post by: Quite Frankly on August 17, 2009, 06:08:47 pm
You're just odd.
Title: Re: Maybe it's your fault if you get beat 72 - 0
Post by: johnharrison on August 17, 2009, 06:11:02 pm
Quote from: QF© on August 17, 2009, 06:08:47 pm
You're just odd.

Yeah, but you watched the tape of Berryville - Aints.  Berryville could have held the score closer if they had used the clock and didn't turn the ball over.
Title: Re: Maybe it's your fault if you get beat 72 - 0
Post by: Quite Frankly on August 17, 2009, 06:18:20 pm
You talk about it more than they do.  They're told to try harder by all those the rip them.  But the mercy rule was designed as an indicator to the dominating team to shut it down and show mercy.  It's the totality of the game and the summation of their actions that count.

It's not that complicated to most.
Title: Re: Maybe it's your fault if you get beat 72 - 0
Post by: gatecrasher on August 17, 2009, 06:26:45 pm
If I'm up big I am emptying my bench. It could mean my 3rd string QB is throwing with a 48-0 lead but it allows guys that would otherwise not play to get valuable experience.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: OldScrap on August 18, 2009, 10:01:34 pm
Coaches are in a tough position, they need the wins to keep their job, or at least have more wins than losses and or to get a better coaching job they need many wins or championships. I suppose its hard for some of them to play will the ones in their school, and be happy to have done the best they can with the players they had.

Of course many of our schools, if they could get them to come out for football, probably have several boys who probably would be very good football players. To get them interested, to get them on the football field it take some extra effort from the coaching staff. For some, maybe it seems easier to just draft  some good players from another school.

Yes, many parents who has a young boy that seems to be a great football player, its just hard for them to do things in the manner QF laid out.

As for the cheating, seems its awful hard to catch and prove. That is without someone who has been approached letting it be known that a school and or someone on their behalf is trying to get them to come to their school to play ball. I suppose the thrill of getting to play on a winning team, a better opportunity to get a championship, a big ring, a scholarship, is worth more than loyalty to ones own school and abiding by the rules. After all, for those people rules are only made for the losers. And when the losers complain about rules being broken they're called whiners by the winners and told to practice harder.

Them to, I suppose many would not tell about it, for it would bring some very unfavorable publicly, even bashing, maybe death threats, telling about a well thought of coach or school that wins lots of games, even championships, is cheating.
Title: Re: Public-Private Split
Post by: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 06:38:44 am
Quote from: onlyanobserver on August 06, 2009, 01:56:11 pm
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 01:24:41 pm
You are right in that private school kids bring nothing to the public school coffers.  But they cost nothing also.

Arkansas private schools overall are rare and fairly small.  Amazing they create so much controversy.

Parents of private school kids still pay property taxes that go to the public school district they're in. So I don't get your point. It doesn't exempt you from paying a tax benefiting public schools where you live.
You have no idea how public school funding works. I realize that everyone pays taxes,and that means everyone ,kids or no kids. Paying state and local taxes supports your community as a whole ,water dept.,fire dept ,street dept,police,parks and rec. and yes the public school system.Wheather or not you choose to use any of these services is totally up to each individual,but everyone helps pay for them. If you opt not too drive a car is your choice,but you still have too pay to maintain the streets in your community.
      But lets be very clear on one point,in no way does it benifit a public school for the kids living within their district to opt out for any reason.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 06:50:19 am
Quote from: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 06:38:44 am
Quote from: onlyanobserver on August 06, 2009, 01:56:11 pm
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 01:24:41 pm
You are right in that private school kids bring nothing to the public school coffers.  But they cost nothing also.

Arkansas private schools overall are rare and fairly small.  Amazing they create so much controversy.

Parents of private school kids still pay property taxes that go to the public school district they're in. So I don't get your point. It doesn't exempt you from paying a tax benefiting public schools where you live.
You have no idea how public school funding works. I realize that everyone pays taxes,and that means everyone ,kids or no kids. Paying state and local taxes supports your community as a whole ,water dept.,fire dept ,street dept,police,parks and rec. and yes the public school system.Wheather or not you choose to use any of these services is totally up to each individule,but everyone helps pay for them. If you opt not too drive a car is your choice,but you still have too pay to maintain the streets in your community.
      But lets be very clear on one point,in no way does it benifit a public school for the kids living within their district to opt out for any reason.

That's mostly right.  Many communities have special millages on property which are designated specifically for education.  Raise the millage = more money for schools (not more police)
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 07:03:40 am
Quote from: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 06:50:19 am
Quote from: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 06:38:44 am
Quote from: onlyanobserver on August 06, 2009, 01:56:11 pm
Quote from: ArkBuc on July 27, 2009, 01:24:41 pm
You are right in that private school kids bring nothing to the public school coffers.  But they cost nothing also.

Arkansas private schools overall are rare and fairly small.  Amazing they create so much controversy.

Parents of private school kids still pay property taxes that go to the public school district they're in. So I don't get your point. It doesn't exempt you from paying a tax benefiting public schools where you live.
You have no idea how public school funding works. I realize that everyone pays taxes,and that means everyone ,kids or no kids. Paying state and local taxes supports your community as a whole ,water dept.,fire dept ,street dept,police,parks and rec. and yes the public school system.Wheather or not you choose to use any of these services is totally up to each individule,but everyone helps pay for them. If you opt not too drive a car is your choice,but you still have too pay to maintain the streets in your community.
      But lets be very clear on one point,in no way does it benifit a public school for the kids living within their district to opt out for any reason.

That's mostly right.  Many communities have special millages on property which are designated specifically for education.  Raise the millage = more money for schools (not more police)
Agreed,but that holds true for most all local and state taxes,our community recently voted to raise our sales tax by 1/2 a percent too help fund parks and rec dept.,none of the other services will benifit from the increase,everyone that makes a purchase within our city limits will pay the tax and the increase,only a small percentage will actually use the facilities,but its there for them if they want to use it!
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: HA_Fan on August 19, 2009, 09:01:47 am
Quote from: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 06:38:44 am
But lets be very clear on one point,in no way does it benifit a public school for the kids living within their district to opt out for any reason.

If you're only speaking about funding, that might be true.  However, it could help with classroom space and student/teacher ratios amongst other things.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 09:22:10 am
I read last week that 25% of central Arkansas students attend private school, about 10,000 I think.

If they all decided to attend public schools, there would be a crisis.

The good news is that the public schools would receive about $50,000,000 ($5K/student).  The bad news is that other public schools would give up $50,000,000

Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: ricepig on August 19, 2009, 09:58:21 am
Quote from: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 09:22:10 am
I read last week that 25% of central Arkansas students attend private school, about 10,000 I think.

If they all decided to attend public schools, there would be a crisis.

The good news is that the public schools would receive about $50,000,000 ($5K/student).  The bad news is that other public schools would give up $50,000,000



Link? Just wondering what constitutes "Central Arkansas" in your statement. Money would stay the same, courts would make either the state or districts raise the taxes. I guess in your mind you are doing the state a favor by sending your kids to a private school. I have no problem with it, but you are always trying to justify it.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 10:06:05 am
A couple of years ago we hired a firm to verify all the students in our district. Let me explain,we wanted to know how many kids lived in our district,but attended school at one of our boardering district,were home schooled,or for what ever reason,just didn't attend our school.
     After much reaserch,leg work ,phone calls, and meetings with other schools super's it was discovered that we had between 110 and 130 kids that lived in our district,but attended school else where.Now keep in mind we only have 610-620 kids K-12,so your talking about 20%. That's 650,000-700,000 dollars each year thats not in our budget. That could have provided new facilities,more teachers,better technology. So in essence the kids that are attending our school are not seeing those improvements because of the lost funding.
     One good thing that came from the verification process is that we found out we had 40 or so kids that were illigally attending the other districts,and those kids were sent back, some stayed some didn't,but we gained a few kids.
     Now if you asked our supt. if he would like to have those kids back,his answer would be YES,but not all at once , that would be a difficult transition for anyone.But brought back over time,thats how they left, would be wonderful,thats called growth,and that is rewarded by the state. With growth, funding becomes availible to provide the needed facilities and teachers.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 10:42:46 am
rice - I'll look for the reference. It was in the Dem Gaz within the last week (but there on-line access sucks so badly I'll have to dig through the trash at home).  Good question though, not sure how they defined it.  Don't think it was LR only, but doubt it included Conway Bryant etc.  It was much larger than I would have thought.

QP - Yeah  you are right.  (It sucks to lose those kids but heck, the biggest donor in my church left last year.  It hurts us, but it is his choice.)

A community has to ask itself, 'Why are they leaving"?  Academics, sports, shorter travel, nicer buildings, etc.  Then you have to ask if you can fix it.  Don't forget, only a portion of the school income comes from the state, local taxes can support the school as well.  Bump the property tax, raise another $250,000, fix what made them leave, reap the benefit when you get them back,  (or you attract kids from other districts). 

How much difference does the local tax make?  Look at Greenwood, Bentonville and Clarendon and Lake View.  The inability of some district to raise taxes was the basis for the big lawsuit that makes the rich schools share with the poor ones.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Old Viking on August 19, 2009, 10:52:10 am
I would have to ask the same question as John. Why would 20%(one out of every five) students that live in your district not want to go to your school? In "Central Arkansas" 25%(one out of four) choose the non-"public option".
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: QPWFB on August 19, 2009, 12:16:24 pm
Well it's easy too automatically assume that there must be a problem. Remember this happened over time not all at once.Some of the parents were contacted and asked why they chose to go else where. The number one reason givin was because the other school was more convient too there work situation or commute. Many actually lived closer to the other districts campus. Our district boundries are long and narrow on the south end,some folks didn't even realize they lived in our district. Almost half of these kids were never enrolled in our school. Only about 10 % of those contacted had a negative reason for not attending,and those reasons varied.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: Old Viking on August 19, 2009, 01:03:40 pm
I know this is a sports board but I wish that children could go to school where ever their parents wished for them to go. Vouchers would be the best way to accomplish this. Make the school produce a product that is attractive for parents to want to get them there.Your child may want to be in the EAST program at Greenbrier(now nationally famous) or be in a bigger band program because that is his or her gift. I understand that Conway High is starting Mandarin Chinese this year. I really think that if more parents were involved in their children's education and demanded excellence from their schools and effort from their children the output of our public schools would not be lagging behind the rest of the world. 
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: transplant on August 19, 2009, 01:41:39 pm
Our country has decided that everyone should be educated.  Most of the countries that are ahead of the U.S in test scores have made a different decision and have very different educational systems. 

The kids in the other nations that would be a drag on the scores (and on other students) are in vacational programs (usually by age 12-14) and out of the education system before our kids are seniors.  That may be a direction you would like for us to go...if so, call your congressman.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 02:05:41 pm
Actually, not just educated, but college educated!

But I think we miss the boat in de-emphasizing our vocational training.

There is nothing wrong with spending 2 to 4 years and learning a trade and earning more than any of your former classmates (for awhile).  20 years old and $40,000 a year isn't so bad.

For some kids there is a lot to be said for dumping calculus and studying bookkeeping, for dropping Shakespeare and concentrating of basic grammar and writing, for replacing studion art with CAD/CAM.

......but it ought to be a choice not a limitation.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: QPWFB on August 20, 2009, 07:04:28 am
Quote from: Old Viking on August 19, 2009, 01:03:40 pm
I know this is a sports board but I wish that children could go to school where ever their parents wished for them to go. Vouchers would be the best way to accomplish this. Make the school produce a product that is attractive for parents to want to get them there.Your child may want to be in the EAST program at Greenbrier(now nationally famous) or be in a bigger band program because that is his or her gift. I understand that Conway High is starting Mandarin Chinese this year. I really think that if more parents were involved in their children's education and demanded excellence from their schools and effort from their children the output of our public schools would not be lagging behind the rest of the world. 
I don't know how that would ever work,smaller schools can't compete with larger schools,schools with smaller budgets would just fall further behind then go away,then we would have one mega school per county.Small schools offer what they can afford to offer,they build what they can afford to build. As kids leave they would have less funding to work with so they would offer less,then more kids will leave.
      Now if they were to give each district the exact same budget to work with each year,and allow each to build the exact same facilities,athletic and academic,then you might have a plan. Put everyone on an even playing field. Then let the parents decide where they want to go.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 20, 2009, 08:04:11 am
QP, I agree somewhat and I disagree. I think the location of schools make it diffcult for some small schools. For example Earle (3a school) has set up programs for the kids to go to MSCC ( West Memphis ) and get a leg up on college life, and job placement skills. Now I know most small schools can't compete with big schools financially, but they can work with the community colleges and major colleges to set up programs. The problem I've seen first hand is parent support is down, which is the main cause for low test scores.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 20, 2009, 08:15:36 am
Transplant, I feel where you are coming from. We (USA) put almost 80% in sports. While some other places put their emphasis on studies/education. And part of it is because we don't have the struggles as the rest of the world. While we have the good life going,they study their butt off to get what we sometimes take for granted and that's the American life. Other countries go hard in books so they can come here and get a piece of the pie. While we mainly focus on sports.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on August 20, 2009, 08:56:59 am
Very few high schools in Europe and South America play sports.

Typical a community will have Football Clubs or Basketball Clubs which organize teams of people who want to play.

School is school, what you do on the evenings and weekends is for fun.

Interestingly though, the intracity competition is as fierce or more so than HS sports are here.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 20, 2009, 11:20:33 am
JH, I know that they have competitive sports and some are as fierce as ours. But hands down we have better athletes. What I mean is overseas they put education as their top priority in most places and in some cultures it's the only way to succeed or most important, a way in the USA. Now that we have globalized our sports and started picking up players from other countries, it's now a little easier for people from other countries to get in the USA ( thus not putting a big emphasis on just education). Before that it was either education or get smuggled in. And my friend if you think education is just for fun or something to do on weekends or in the evenings then you have no idea what goes on over their, in half of those cultures. A lot of kids get discipline real good if their not where that person think they should be.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: johnharrison on August 20, 2009, 11:53:02 am
You may be partly correct but not totally.

Go to any college in America and look at the tennis team.  90% are European.  Football (soccer) look at the world class teams.  Long distance runners go to the Africans.  Gymnastics (not a sport).

but yes, we allow kids to go to school dreaming they will be a pro athlete.

Fact is, there are more black neurosurgeons than their are starting point guards in the NBA.   Sports is the way out for........very.......few.

Education is important

Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 20, 2009, 12:25:42 pm
That's very true JH, I forgot about tennis. And by no means am I saying that our education is not great. I think it's the greatest in the world. It's just these parents now days- that's my rant.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: True Fan on August 20, 2009, 03:30:20 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on August 19, 2009, 02:05:41 pm
Actually, not just educated, but college educated!

But I think we miss the boat in de-emphasizing our vocational training.

There is nothing wrong with spending 2 to 4 years and learning a trade and earning more than any of your former classmates (for awhile).  20 years old and $40,000 a year isn't so bad.

For some kids there is a lot to be said for dumping calculus and studying bookkeeping, for dropping Shakespeare and concentrating of basic grammar and writing, for replacing studion art with CAD/CAM.

......but it ought to be a choice not a limitation.

Great post. +1

With the current focus on education, most high schools are very reluctant to encourage vocational training. It is only an option for students that have given up. The career centers are full of students that the schools do not want on campus. Students with good grades and no discipline history are pushed to stay on the "college" track. That's why so much is spent on adult vocational training, when it could have easily been the students focus in high school. NCLB has dumbed down the American classroom. Most people don't realize that it's main focus is achievement gap. It's not as much about bringing up the bottom, as keeping the top near the bottom.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 21, 2009, 07:31:45 am
QF, JH, TF, or someone that has inside info. Have they stopped promoting kids in high school or is that just in some areas?
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: arthurhawgerelli on August 22, 2009, 01:08:05 pm
Quote from: DEBO64ETOWN on August 21, 2009, 07:31:45 am
QF, JH, TF, or someone that has inside info. Have they stopped promoting kids in high school or is that just in some areas?

I'm not sure you typed what you meant to ask, or maybe I don't understand your question.  I can tell you that students in Arkansas are promoted from one grade to the next, every year.
Title: Re: Public & Private School Issues Merged Thread (2009)
Post by: DEBO64ETOWN on August 24, 2009, 07:08:11 am
My bad should have explained more, I mean if a child is in lets say 7th grade and can do 10th grade level work across the board, will they make him/her suffer or put them in the 10th grade. I'm all rewarding a child for excellance in the class room. That's what I meant.