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Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

Started by MDXPHD, December 17, 2015, 03:12:54 pm

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MDXPHD

I know most of you are thinking, "oh no, not this again" but I am simply putting some facts in this thread, and hopefully not causing a huge debate over recruiting. We have been discussing this for awhile now, so I decided to look into it and do some of the numbers, similar on the other thread. So, here are some numbers for football since 2001 and soccer since 2007.

Football since 2001:

80 championship games in all the classifications. From 01-05, there were only four classifications. The current set up was implemented in 06.

Through the last 15 years, there has been at least one private state champion in one of the classes all but three years (2013, 2007, 2005). Every other year, a private school has won the title in one of the classifications. In 2015 and 2008, two of the champions were private schools. Now, 12/15 is equal to 80 percent. 80 percent of those years, we have had a private school champion in at least one classification.

But, as pointed out by Red Devil in another thread, that is a deceiving percentage. Of those 80 championship games from 2001, 14 have been won by private schools, or roughly 17ish percent. So, actually, only 17 percent of the total games were won by a private school. The 17 percent of private school champions is only comprised by 4 schools: PA, CAC, Harding, and Shiloh.

Now, that doesn't seem right. 83 percent of the champions are public schools. That's a fact. But, there are many, many more public schools than private schools. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I would bet that there are fewer than 15 private schools that compete in football, and they are taking a state championship 17 percent of the time.


Soccer since 2007:

The current soccer set up happened in 2007, I believe. The private schools have dominated girls soccer, other than Harrison. The boys is a little different, simply because of 6A and DeQueen in the lower classifications. There are only 4 classifications in soccer. 4A and down, then 5A, 6A, and 7A.

Boys: There has been a private school champion in 7/9 years in at least one classification. 3 years there have been 2 private school champions. 7/9 is 78ish percent. But, let's go back to the argument made above: out of the 36 actual games being played, 10 were won by a private school. That's 27 percent. Again, there are only 4 private schools that are doing this in this sport. 4 private schools are winning 27 percent of the championship games.

Girls: Way worse in girls. All but 2014 has seen a private school champion in at least one classification. 6 of those years had 2 champions from private schools and 1 year had 3. Out of the 36 games, 15 have been private (42 percent). 6 private school teams have won the title. Now, here is where it gets interesting: take away 6 and 7A. In 5A, Harrison girls have won twice...the rest being won by a private school. 7 of the last 9 champions in 5A girls soccer have been won by a private school. Same in 4A (Gentry and VV won the last two).

I did not look through to see how many privates knocked out other privates that may have one that same year, but I do know it would have happened in soccer a few times.


So, to recap: In football, 80 championship games have been played since 01 and 17 percent of them have been won by a private school. In Boys soccer, 36 games since 07 and 27 percent have been won by a private school. In Girls soccer, 36 games have been played and 15 have been won by a private school, but in 5A and 4A, it is 14/18 in favor of the private schools.



MDXPHD

I am not throwing these numbers out to help prove a point that I have, but simply to show everyone in one place. I haven't had time to do basketball or other sports, but maybe somebody else can. My point is really this: Yes, we have all agreed that private schools have advantages over public schools in different ways. But, the advantage doesn't make them unstoppable (except for girls soccer, apparently). The sports leagues are more competitive with them mixed into the public schools. However, I do wish the state would go into a success advancement system. This means that the more successful your program is, you bump up another class.

Also, for the critics, there are several schools that would prove to be way more dominant than private schools in specific sports. Junction city and Greenwood have 6 titles since 01, Charleston has 5. Fayetteville and Bentonville make up 8 of the last 10 champions in 7A. ElDo has won 4/10 in 6A alone. So, if you think the private schools are dominating the state, they aren't. There are a some public schools that are way more dominant, even though its a select few.

Think of it this way: There are 4 private schools that have won 14 titles in football through 80 games. So let me take four of the most successful public schools: Greenwood/JC/Charleston/(any team with 4 titles). That is 21 state champions from these 4 schools, which equals 26 percent. That's 9 percent more than the 4 private schools.

PA Dad

Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!

the voice

Nice job. I know you started looking at college players from those schools also. The number from the public schools listed and their players would be interesting. Also the fact that those are public schools that anyone in the district can attend and play as long as they make grades. In this discussion to me the biggest advantage that PA has is location. Being able to draw from the biggest city without having  district lines and competing in the middle as far as classification goes for football. No one argues the public schools mentioned are successful, their numbers have them were they are. Their location and district have a say in their enrollment. Although the numbers you post are interesting and factual and you noted some advantages are present, this was one that sticks out to me. Of course if Catholic or central were having the success of PA I believe that's where some would be going instead of PA. 

tmycjy

Good work on that like what u posted here

I would like to add something to this this subject if they are playing with public school league then why aren't they have to fallow the same rules everyone dose who are public why private school don't have to fallow the same rules

MDXPHD

Quote from: tmycjy on December 17, 2015, 04:34:27 pm
Good work on that like what u posted here

I would like to add something to this this subject if they are playing with public school league then why aren't they have to fallow the same rules everyone dose who are public why private school don't have to fallow the same rules

Private schools do pretty much have to follow the same rules as public schools. There are a few exceptions I'm sure, but I don't know what they are right off.

MDXPHD

Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 04:27:28 pm
Nice job. I know you started looking at college players from those schools also. The number from the public schools listed and their players would be interesting. Also the fact that those are public schools that anyone in the district can attend and play as long as they make grades. In this discussion to me the biggest advantage that PA has is location. Being able to draw from the biggest city without having  district lines and competing in the middle as far as classification goes for football. No one argues the public schools mentioned are successful, their numbers have them were they are. Their location and district have a say in their enrollment. Although the numbers you post are interesting and factual and you noted some advantages are present, this was one that sticks out to me. Of course if Catholic or central were having the success of PA I believe that's where some would be going instead of PA.

The most successful private schools are probably PA and Shiloh, although Harding has won 3 titles I think. PA and Shiloh are in prime locations because of how populated their areas are. Now, there are some other privates in those areas too, but PA and Shiloh have built up a reputation so if you are in that area and want to play football for a private schools, you lean toward them.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!

I believe there are only 11 private schools that participate in football in the state. But, I think that works against a public schools argument too. If you have 300 public schools and only a handful of the public schools are dominating the sport, wouldn't that mean they are doing something to gain an advantage over the others?

For instance, JC and Greenwood have 6 titles each since 01. Charleston has 5. Several have 4 titles each. So, those 10 schools or so, out of 300, continually win the titles compared to the others.

tmycjy

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 04:50:28 pm
Quote from: tmycjy on December 17, 2015, 04:34:27 pm
Good work on that like what u posted here

I would like to add something to this this subject if they are playing with public school league then why aren't they have to fallow the same rules everyone dose who are public why private school don't have to fallow the same rules

Private schools do pretty much have to follow the same rules as public schools. There are a few exceptions I'm sure, but I don't know what they are right off.

My why isn't the same why are the exception

MDXPHD

I'm not certain there are any exceptions. I believe they have to go by the same rules, except they play up a classification if they have more than 80 students enrolled. School choice has eliminated having to live in the district, and if you transfer and live outside of the district (or 25 mile radius for private) then you have to sit out a full calendar year.

MDXPHD

December 17, 2015, 05:08:27 pm #10 Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 05:10:17 pm by MDXPHD
Think about it...If you are in LR, your kid is good at sports, you want a quality education, and you can either pay for it or receive financial assistance, would you want your child at PA or CAC? Maybe LRC? I'm not sure many would say no, but some would. I know of several families that would move their kid to a school that is good at football, depending on their job flexibility. If you are a D-1 athlete, your family moving isn't that huge of a burden compared to the rewards that could benefit them. You don't have to pay for college, your kid gets more recognition, and possibly goes to a good d-1 school, then who knows what happens after that.

This doesn't just apply to private schools. The public schools that are so good every year are the ones that produce the top prospects in the state, with the exception of a few. Batesville rarely has anyone of d-1 talent, but they are always pretty good. Greenwood always has one or two, PA, Bentonville, Fayetteville, ElDo, Pine Bluff, Warren, etc. The programs that everyone in the state know are the ones that produce the talent. Why not go there for sports if you want recognition and are able to?

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 04:58:34 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!

I believe there are only 11 private schools that participate in football in the state. But, I think that works against a public schools argument too. If you have 300 public schools and only a handful of the public schools are dominating the sport, wouldn't that mean they are doing something to gain an advantage over the others?

For instance, JC and Greenwood have 6 titles each since 01. Charleston has 5. Several have 4 titles each. So, those 10 schools or so, out of 300, continually win the titles compared to the others.

This was the point I was trying to make on the other thread.  The successful public schools like those you name are either doing something different from the unsuccessful ones or they are just really lucky.  They don't have the advantages the private schools have.  So what is the secret to their success?

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 05:18:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 04:58:34 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!

I believe there are only 11 private schools that participate in football in the state. But, I think that works against a public schools argument too. If you have 300 public schools and only a handful of the public schools are dominating the sport, wouldn't that mean they are doing something to gain an advantage over the others?

For instance, JC and Greenwood have 6 titles each since 01. Charleston has 5. Several have 4 titles each. So, those 10 schools or so, out of 300, continually win the titles compared to the others.

This was the point I was trying to make on the other thread.  The successful public schools like those you name are either doing something different from the unsuccessful ones or they are just really lucky.  They don't have the advantages the private schools have.  So what is the secret to their success?

Athletes and coaching! I'm not sure how they get the athletes, but the ones I named and the privates that win have always had extremely talented athletes. It's ludicrous for somebody to argue otherwise, as Eddie always says PA doesn't have more athletes than the public schools. Now they might not have more than Pine Bluff or Bentonville/Fayetteville, but according to their numbers, they have more athletes per student ratio. I think that's a main reason people are so hard on a school like PA. The enrollment numbers are tiny compared to Fayetteville/Bentonville, but they are throwing out D-1 players left and right.

Baitshop

On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...


And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....

Good athletes flock to where they can win...or the coaching is outstanding

MDXPHD

Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....

Cheaters.

Baitshop

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....

Cheaters.

Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...

PA Dad

Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....

Cheaters.

Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...

I assume that is tongue in cheek.

I don't think Warren is recruiting.  Nor do I think that parents are moving to Warren so their kids can play football there.  There has to be another explanation.

I think it is coaching.

the voice


Yellowcake


Lionheart88

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Charleston, junction city, greenwood, fayettevill, bentonville, and nashville....have How many titles again?

the voice

Those schools like Warren have players , generations of players , their granddaddy all the way down and further, Bo knows a great place to coach and win, not taking anything from him, just saying it's the jimmys and the joes , when Atkins was a good team years ago , great tradition, they always had a Bobo on the team, last one played at uca, I'm sure the supporters from those towns can tell you the names , just like Morrilton has the trezvants , Criswells, Duncan's (Toney Hawkins mothers family ) , fosters and so on.

Lionheart88

Quote from: HF on December 17, 2015, 08:18:02 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Charleston, junction city, greenwood, fayettevill, bentonville, and nashville....have How many titles again?
What does that matter?

PA Dad

Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

If your numbers are correct, then the percentage of wins by private schools is certainly out of line.

But, those numbers are greatly skewed by PA and Shiloh.  HA has, I think, 3 state championships.  If you remove PA and Shiloh, the privates are probably about the same as the publics.

But, you say, why should we remove PA and Shiloh?  Because they are the outliers.  They skew the numbers like a winning public school, like Warren, would in an analysis of what factors influence a successful public school.

Or, viewed another way, maybe the complaint should just be that PA and Shiloh have been too good.  The argument that private schools have an unfair advantage rings hollow when applied to schools like Catholic, Conway Christian, Subiaco, CAC and LRC.

AirWarren

Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 07:58:05 pm
Genetics!!

1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.

And so on.

If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.

the voice

I understand what PA dad is looking at I think, if all were like him PA would probably not be looked at like they have been. I don't hear near as much about LRC , Harding academy or Conway Christian, the public schools should win more titles and probably do , I think the point MDXPHD was trying to make was they weren't dominant. I personally feel as I've said before PA is different because of the success and location. One could say they are a victim of their own success. I've said I don't think it's actually recruiting, but rather as another poster said who wouldn't want to go there ,  I agree with a couple things mentioned by others , the enrollment at PA has them where they are , but the ratio of college caliber not only D1 players is much higher there. It seems some PA posters want to brag about how good they are but want everyone to believe they are equal playing field with public schools. I was told today it's either PA or Greenwood, if they moved up we would get Greenwood back , I'd rather play PA right now. That's just me , I would rather them move up and greenwood stay but as I've said to PA posters , can't have cake and eat it too. So it is what it is.

PA Dad

Quote from: AirWarren on December 17, 2015, 08:53:06 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 07:58:05 pm
Genetics!!

1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.

And so on.

If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.

Good post.

You could, with only a couple of modifications, say the same about PA.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?

Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.

PA Dad

I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years.  I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.

the voice

Quote from: AirWarren on December 17, 2015, 08:53:06 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 07:58:05 pm
Genetics!!

1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.

And so on.

If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.

My point exactly! Great post

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years.  I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.

Agreed. The success advancement system should be implemented in this state. I don't see too many negatives. The school could always move back down during the next cycle if they don't win at that level.

the voice

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years.  I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.

Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example,  those lines apply to the public schools, 

MDXPHD

Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:18:58 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years.  I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.

Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example,  those lines apply to the public schools,

You can go to any public school under school choice, I think. If you transfer after 7th grade (maybe?) then you have to sit out a year.

PA Dad

Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:18:58 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years.  I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.

Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example,  those lines apply to the public schools,

Applying area limitations to private schools would shut them down.  And, if you just applied those limitations to athletes, it would probably kill athletic programs at private schools.

the voice

I understand, not saying it should be that way or shut them down athletically, but being devils advocate here , see how some get the idea that money and brains mean you get special treatment? We get to play but we have rules that are different but it's ok because we are who we are , not saying how I see it but I think you will agree that is also what gave Shiloh an advantage and what's separated PA in recent times , not saying coaching and hard work hasn't been involved, just saying it helps that you could live in Pottsville and attend PA

PA Dad

Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:41:23 pm
I understand, not saying it should be that way or shut them down athletically, but being devils advocate here , see how some get the idea that money and brains mean you get special treatment? We get to play but we have rules that are different but it's ok because we are who we are , not saying how I see it but I think you will agree that is also what gave Shiloh an advantage and what's separated PA in recent times , not saying coaching and hard work hasn't been involved, just saying it helps that you could live in Pottsville and attend PA

I understand that argument and that is certainly an advantage the private schools have, although less so now with school choice in public schools. As an example, Monk moved from eastern Arkansas to Fayetteville to play for a big time school.

Lumberjackfan1978

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 07:55:31 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....

Cheaters.

Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...

I assume that is tongue in cheek.

I don't think Warren is recruiting.  Nor do I think that parents are moving to Warren so their kids can play football there.  There has to be another explanation.

I think it is coaching.

the voice

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:48:22 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:41:23 pm
I understand, not saying it should be that way or shut them down athletically, but being devils advocate here , see how some get the idea that money and brains mean you get special treatment? We get to play but we have rules that are different but it's ok because we are who we are , not saying how I see it but I think you will agree that is also what gave Shiloh an advantage and what's separated PA in recent times , not saying coaching and hard work hasn't been involved, just saying it helps that you could live in Pottsville and attend PA

I understand that argument and that is certainly an advantage the private schools have, although less so now with school choice in public schools. As an example, Monk moved from eastern Arkansas to Fayetteville to play for a big time school.

Indeed he did. Second player in that family from small town , moved to some place that believed to be better. School of choice is one thing , but it's not as easy as it seems. Why did he pick there ? Same reason some would chose PA for football. The fort smith schools got Matt jones to play there because his parent worked there but lived in van buren , to hear him talk there was no way he'd played there. Where do the youth football players play ? Isn't there a league they play in there amongst private schools?

Grond

Congrats to MDXPHD on a good analysis, and a good discussion.  ;)

Baitshop

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 07:55:31 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....

Cheaters.

Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...

I assume that is tongue in cheek.


Yes, it was....the thought that anyone that wins consistently must be cheating is, and has been, in the DNA of Fearless Friday for as long as I have been a poster here....

Yellowcake

Bump up winning teams because they are on a run? Ludicrous, in my humble opinion. PA was a doormat for eons until KK arrived.
Recruiting? Prove it. Start with PA. name a kid from Pottsville, or Brinkley, or Bryant or Searcy or anywhere else who is on the team.
They have a great coach and a unique system. They are supposed to be 4A as it is. They are enjoying a run, and eventually it will end. So punish them by moving them to 6A? I don't get that.
Someone step up and take the crown. Just like Shiloh, it will eventually turn. Until then, they will continue to play with a target on them and take everyone's best shot.
Come on guys. Advocating they move up to 6A is the coward's solution. In my most humble opinion.

Lionheart88

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?

Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then.  4 of 11 private schools have titles.  That's 36% of private schools with at least one title.  What percentage of public schools have won a title?  Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that. 


Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).

the voice

Quote from: Yellowcake on December 18, 2015, 12:07:16 am
Bump up winning teams because they are on a run? Ludicrous, in my humble opinion. PA was a doormat for eons until KK arrived.
Recruiting? Prove it. Start with PA. name a kid from Pottsville, or Brinkley, or Bryant or Searcy or anywhere else who is on the team.
They have a great coach and a unique system. They are supposed to be 4A as it is. They are enjoying a run, and eventually it will end. So punish them by moving them to 6A? I don't get that.
Someone step up and take the crown. Just like Shiloh, it will eventually turn. Until then, they will continue to play with a target on them and take everyone's best shot.
Come on guys. Advocating they move up to 6A is the coward's solution. In my most humble opinion.

No one said they are recruiting. I don't know who is on the team and who isn't. We were having a discussion, do all players on the team live within five miles of the school? Whatever the distant would be for a public school in a highly populated area with other schools nearby  , no because those lines would hurt private schools and possibly kill athletics at them. Your argument about being 4a , your team is turning out more college players than any 5a school on a regular basis, you want to talk about being a coward, you play in a classification where a single D1 player can make a team a contender, (hope) great example of how big an impact, while you have 2-4 on most teams , mercy ruling your opponents, think that's just fine to beat a team by 35, it acceptable, they should lay down and quit when you do this btw, you want to keep things exactly how they are , as though you have no advantage, and you wonder why the majority of the state hates your school and now your coach.  You want to rationalize you pounding teams , as long it's 35 or less it's ok , no it's not.

As I said , the success PA has had is why players choose to go there. No one could blame them.  Just like to see them play teams with similar talent , it's not the case when you're mercy ruling teams. Doesn't matter nothing will change and with the attitude like yours PA will be more hated this year because you and a couple others will continue to stir it up and this will be KK last year at PA , it's the rumor in coaching circle

AirWarren

With the little animal that blew smoke in his teachers face in NLR, I see why parents in little rock send their kids to privates.

Go Postal

Good thread.  I can't give you records for football but here is the link below of all the 7A, 6A, 5A and 4 thru 1A state boys and girls soccer champions/state runner-ups since 1998 when it started in Arkansas.  (This list was made with the help of some of you soccer and non soccer fans above and others.  Thank you for helping me in searching old records, the 'net and asking around to find the info.)

http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=135409.0

Here is the CLASS 5A records for an example with the private schools highlighted:
BOYS
2015 - De Queen (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2014 - De Queen (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2013 - Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Harrison)
2012 – Siloam Springs (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2011 – Siloam Springs (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2010 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Hope)
2009 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Central Arkansas Christian)
2008 – Harrison (Runner-up LR Christian)
2007 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up Siloam Springs)
2006 – Harrison (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2005 – Harrison (Runner-up Siloam Springs)
2004 – Harrison (Runner-up Central Arkansas Christian)
2003 – Harrison (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2002 – Harrison (Runner-up Searcy)

GIRLS
2015 - Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2014 - Harrison (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2013 - Shiloh Christian (Runner-up Harrison)
2012 – Central Arkansas Christian (Runner-up LR Christian)
2011 – Harrison (Runner-up LR Christian)
2010 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2009 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Central Arkansas Christian)
2008 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up LR Christian)
2007 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up LR Christian)
2006 – Central Arkansas Christian (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2005 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up Little Rock Christian)
2004 – Harrison (Runner-up Arkadelphia)
2003 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up Harrison)
2002 – Harrison (Runner-up Searcy)

If you look at all the records, PA also played in the 4A and what we call now, the 7A at one time.  Shiloh and CAC has played in the 5A and 4A over the years.  Now some soccer teams in AR just have a girl's team (Shiloh for example) or boy's team.
  A lot of the boys/girls athletes in this sport play in club ball during the year to keep their talent up and some of them play other sport's during the rest of the school year too.

Does private schools have a edge over public schools in athletics?  Maybe, sometimes.  I think that schools only get better in playing a higher caliber team whether it is public or private.  Public schools, just beat a private school.  It can be done.  Harrison/Siloam Springs/South conference has done this in soccer.  Greenwood in football.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?

Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then.  4 of 11 private schools have titles.  That's 36% of private schools with at least one title.  What percentage of public schools have won a title?  Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that. 


Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).

I agree that a higher percentage of private schools are winning, but I would argue that it's almost expected. 4 our of 11 of the schools being successful isn't a surprise. I think what is surprising is that less than 20 percent of the public schools are successful. Probably closer to 10 percent. So 90 percent of the public schools just aren't really successful, and that should be higher I think.

3A,4A, and 5A have won even against the championship caliber teams. The 6A doesn't have one, but they could hold their own against any of the privates for sure. I don't think that the dominant public schools have been dominating because of the lack of quality privates in their classification.

PA Dad

Quote from: Yellowcake on December 18, 2015, 12:07:16 am
Bump up winning teams because they are on a run? Ludicrous, in my humble opinion. PA was a doormat for eons until KK arrived.
Recruiting? Prove it. Start with PA. name a kid from Pottsville, or Brinkley, or Bryant or Searcy or anywhere else who is on the team.
They have a great coach and a unique system. They are supposed to be 4A as it is. They are enjoying a run, and eventually it will end. So punish them by moving them to 6A? I don't get that.
Someone step up and take the crown. Just like Shiloh, it will eventually turn. Until then, they will continue to play with a target on them and take everyone's best shot.
Come on guys. Advocating they move up to 6A is the coward's solution. In my most humble opinion.

I take a different view.  I think a bump up is a reward.  Watching mercy rule games is just not much fun.  And, if you're capable of competing at a higher level, why not welcome the competition?

the voice


PA Dad

Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?

Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then.  4 of 11 private schools have titles.  That's 36% of private schools with at least one title.  What percentage of public schools have won a title?  Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that. 


Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).

How about Charleston in 3A?  HA is in 3A and Charleston has far more championships.  Greenwood had no problem competing against PA when they were both in the same classification.  Warren and Nashville have no problem competing with Shiloh in 4A.

And, I'll go back to a point I made earlier.  The real gripe, at least right now, is PA.  No one is complaining that Catholic or Conway Christian or LRC or CAC has a great advantage.  Why not?  Because they aren't winning state titles.

Grond

December 18, 2015, 09:48:14 am #49 Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 09:53:32 am by Grond
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 18, 2015, 08:22:03 am
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work.  It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.

I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?).  I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football.  We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.

But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas.  They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more. 

If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them.  We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know.  Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers.  Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play.  So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships.  That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity.  If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.

Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?

Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then.  4 of 11 private schools have titles.  That's 36% of private schools with at least one title.  What percentage of public schools have won a title?  Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that. 


Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).

I agree that a higher percentage of private schools are winning, but I would argue that it's almost expected. 4 our of 11 of the schools being successful isn't a surprise. I think what is surprising is that less than 20 percent of the public schools are successful. Probably closer to 10 percent. So 90 percent of the public schools just aren't really successful, and that should be higher I think.

3A,4A, and 5A have won even against the championship caliber teams. The 6A doesn't have one, but they could hold their own against any of the privates for sure. I don't think that the dominant public schools have been dominating because of the lack of quality privates in their classification.

Excellent point.  ;)

I think a sad truth is that a lot of the high school football play & technique in Arkansas is, frankly, REALLY BAD.

Pulaski Academy and Batesville are examples of excellent coaching. Look what happened at Blytheville with better coaches?

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