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Do you purposely tell your players to do things you know might be illegal?

Started by Quite Frankly, December 24, 2007, 04:46:16 pm

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Quite Frankly

In particular, moving screens and illegal pick plays.

Do you practice it?  Do you teach them to make contact when you know it's against the rules but hope to gain an advantage with ref's that tend to let some stuff off the ball go?

For me, it's a little tricky. I don't condone any active attempt to teach players to do things that by the book are against the rules.  What should be taught is the proper and legit way to do things.

But I've witnessed many teams that simply push it until a call is forced.  Sometimes that's quite a ways.  Generally the same teams do it year to year.  I fail to see how they get by with it, but they do.  It's a "dare you to call" it kind of deal.

I have issues with anything that initiates contact that is knowingly against the rules.  They put the pressure on the ref's to correct it.  The aggressive tactic sets the tone for more non calls later.

I think BB has plenty of natural conduct without it being coached to go over the line.

superd2312

I tell my boys to head hunt and give a good hard screen, just dont push off to make it obvious. I have my boys really agressive till they call an illeagel one then i back off. I dont mind takin a foul just to see how the refs are going to call the game.

Quite Frankly

I think that finding the line that the refs allow is not a wrong.  But there are some that  teach "head hunt"ing a little more than that.
But they won't publically admit it.

30kfeet

Would you condone an intentional foul in some situations?  How is that different?  Is that "proper and legit".

deeznutz1963

If the officials are working off-ball like they should then this nonsense would be taken care of early on. Those who "ball watch" and don't cover off-ball plays will probably have a tough game to work. Things that are let go early on will most likely get rougher later in the game. Then it's too late.

Quite Frankly

Quote from: 30kfeet on December 25, 2007, 11:13:31 am
Would you condone an intentional foul in some situations?  How is that different?  Is that "proper and legit".

The intentional fouls in the open floor are not even remotely close to the assaults that I refer too.

If the intentional foul is flagrant, then obviously that's different and the rules treat is differently.  The onus of my statement is the full blown hip checks. high elbows on screens and jersey grabs.

motivate

I see nothing wrong with jersey grabs, high elbows, standing on toes, or going through a weak screen. These are now parts of the
no-look-no see part of the game.

Quite Frankly

Quote from: motivate on December 27, 2007, 01:39:10 pm
I see nothing wrong with jersey grabs, high elbows, standing on toes, or going through a weak screen. These are now parts of the
no-look-no see part of the game.

Are you a ref in the 7A?

motivate

No, I just teach players how to foul without fouling. How to take the other player out of their game and worry about how we are playing on defense.

Quite Frankly

You can call it what you want, but you are trying to change rules to suit your needs.  Most of what I am referring to is not the gentle conduct that is generally allowed. But I've noticed that they are allowing that line to expand more and more to the point that the beautiful game of basketball is now being ruined by thuggery in some cases.

Just because a guy comes through the lane doesn't mean he can get fully dislodged while moving or should have his shirt grabbed to prevent him from where he wants to go.  Step in front legally if you want to prevent him from going somewhere.  Some small contact (getting a piece) has now grown into something too much.

I'm not on a crusade to get the refs to call every little thing.  But the 3rd ref was added to monitor off the ball activity and 'clean things up'.  Right now, that is not happening as much.

Consequently, some teams are simply staying in games that they wouldn't otherwise because they simply come to knock folks around.  Being illegally overly physical should not be a way for lesser teams to stay in games.

motivate

I agree. The refs are letting things get to rough. I think they do not want to call a game the right way because it will take 2+ hours to complete. The refs want to get payed and get done. I have not seen to many refs that have a true passion for the game like the fans, coaches and players. There are a few but not enough. You have to ask "what does it take to become a ref now days". It is very easy and not much required. There are also a lot of great ones retiring.

CoachJ

Quote from: Quite Frankly on December 28, 2007, 09:33:06 am
You can call it what you want, but you are trying to change rules to suit your needs.  Most of what I am referring to is not the gentle conduct that is generally allowed. But I've noticed that they are allowing that line to expand more and more to the point that the beautiful game of basketball is now being ruined by thuggery in some cases.

Just because a guy comes through the lane doesn't mean he can get fully dislodged while moving or should have his shirt grabbed to prevent him from where he wants to go.  Step in front legally if you want to prevent him from going somewhere.  Some small contact (getting a piece) has now grown into something too much.

I'm not on a crusade to get the refs to call every little thing.  But the 3rd ref was added to monitor off the ball activity and 'clean things up'.  Right now, that is not happening as much.

Consequently, some teams are simply staying in games that they wouldn't otherwise because they simply come to knock folks around.  Being illegally overly physical should not be a way for lesser teams to stay in games.

I totally agree with you Quite Frankly.  Basketball is not suppose to resemble football, but I'm sad to say that today it does.  Coaches who teach their kids to blatantly "hip check" when players are cutting across the lane, grab cutters, and standing on toes are taking away from the beauty of the game of basketball.  I'm sure that many coaches disagree with me on this one, but the game of basketball is not a physical/contact sport.  Even the greatest coach of all time hates the way the game is being played now.

True Fan

Great thread. I can't hardly stand the way the games are not called. The integrity of basketball continues to fall. The game isn't played by the rules. It just sometimes kind of follows them. We can look at the NBA where the superstars are allowed to do whatever they need to put up big numbers and sell tickets. Or, we can go back to the peewee ranks where we let everything go because they are just learning the game. Throw in coaches who, under the pressure to win at any cost, will bend and break every rule in the book. It's no wonder the high school kids are confused and the officials are so inconsistant.

Myth #1 Calling it by the book would make the games last forever.

I've never bought that. People do what the think they can get away with. If it's called consistently, people play by the rules. Look at places known as speed traps. If you want to slow down the traffic, start writing tickets. Word will get out and people will slow down. (play by the rules)

Myth #2 There are some grey areas in the rulebook.

The rules are pretty clear. There are case books with specific answers to almost all situations. For the isolated questionable areas, the officials are directed to rule consistantly with the spirit of the rules.

Myth #3 Intentional fouls are rare.

They need to change the name to flagrant foul or something of that nature. Almost every transition shot which is contested includes an "intentional" foul. Don't give up the easy basket.

Myth #4 The officials just want to get paid and go home. (Well, maybe a semi-myth)

You can't officiate without a love for the game. The money is nowhere near worth as much as the time, travel, training and abuse involved. Over time, some do get jaded and are just going through the motions. There are some good ones retiring, but there are some burned out ones continuing to work. 

As you travel around and watch different sporting events. The players can adapt to the standard being called. It doesn't matter if they are 10 or 20. I won't address the pro's. It's not the end of the world to enforce the rules. It runs hand in hand with raising kids with strong moral character and sportsmanship. I don't think the country is doing our children justice in these areas.

It's almost impossible to compete without playing this way. It's the norm, not the exception. I doubt it ever gets better. I try not to dwell on it, but, from time to time, I can get on a soapbox. I think my session is about over. I feel better. See ya next week, doc.

Briscoe

True fan,I could not agree with you more. I have held my breath all basketball season and its time to vent. This playing and calling is started in pee wee programs and just gets worse. AAU and their off springs are out of control and getting worse. For those of you who may read this trust me I am an eye for an eye personality and have no problems with the game being physical but a line has to be drawn some where. Its just a matter of time before some young lady or young man has their lives ruined by a serious injury. I am not talking about the hand checking and solid screens. Its the throwing a shoulder into the defender that knocks them to the floor, running thru a player for a loose ball, riding the offensive player out of bounds into the stands and no call.As for the refs watching the ball you are right they have just become fans. Every once in a while one might actually be watching the rest of the game and see the defender was set for the charge. We can call an intentional foul at half court for a tug on a jersey but when a shooter has left the floor for a lay up and can be tackled and its just a foul is insane.
A player is going to be seriously hurt if this kind play is allowed to continue. In pro football you are not allowed to hit a defenseless player. A basketball player in the air, in the act of shooting a lay up is about as defenseless as it gets people. For those who say well its the intimidation factor, try playing some good defense and get in front of the player instead of taking the lazy way out. After a AAU tournament game I asked the ref how he could allow the game for 11 year old girls get that out of control. His response was, that was part of the game. I then ask him if i could take him out on the court and foul him the way he was letting those girls hit and he promptly declined my offer and left the area rather quickly.For those that say you can't call everything why not. A foul is a foul. If the coaches want the game to end up one on one so be it.

Its time for the schools, athletic directors and parents of these ahtletes' to put the AAA on notice clean up the game, get some competent refs or we are going to have Gary Green & Gary Eubanks on speed dial. Sure we all sign waivers as parents, but a reasonable amount of safety is expected. They are being paid to do job, so lets quit worrying about face paint and start taking care of the athletes.

Throwback1

I thought 30 years ago that basketball was a contact sport, ie., a lot rougher than people who weren't actually on the court realized...nothing has changed.

Quite Frankly


Throwback1

Football is obviously a collision sport, as opposed to a contact sport, but players have a lot of protection in football, too...I can't think of bb as more "physical" than football, but I certainly couldn't mount a real strong argument against your opinion, either.

Quite Frankly

Taking a charge is as physical a sacrifice as there is in sports.

Especially when you factor it's voluntary.

Throwback1

True...I guess my hangup on this issue is the result of the question, In which sport are you more likely to be crippled for life or die, football or basketball?   I think the answer is fairly obvious, but at the same time I can see how the word "physical" is more involved and means something else in some ways.

Briscoe

There is a big differnce  between physical and violent. A 400 hundred meter is pretty physically demanding. The differnce between the to is speed of the impact. Two post players shoving,elbowing and pinching each other is part of the game. The stronger and smarter one (the one that doesn't get caught) dominates and thats physical play.The problems start when one is allowed to form tackle the other and theres no call.Then it turns into WWE until one goes down or the refs finally calls a foul. Loose balls is becoming  a free pass to take out another player.
Most X players who I have talked to who played 20 years ago or more say they could not play today because they would be in fights the whole time for crap being done or said on the court.

Lets face facts todays players are faster and stronger than players were 20 years ago. Football has made some changes in their rules to compensate for this. Basketball has always been physical but it is starting to have way to many violent impacts with no calls or little penalty. My point is should basketball not be proactive instead of reactive. Its easy to sit there and say oh well its just part of the game. But when its your player or kid that is getting their head sewed up or laying in the hospital bed waiting for knee or shoulder surgery or god forbid something worse because of something that could have been prevented you might have a different opinion.

Throwback1

You might be right, but 35 years ago, I sure remember a lot of talking and a lot of elbows were the norm on the bb court, just like today.  Maybe it is worst, but sometimes I think we remember the "old days" a little more charitably than accurate.

MaryAnn

Elbows and talking isn't what gets players seriously injured...

Quite Frankly

Overly hard forearm shivers as a guy cuts across, hard hip checks and out and out thuggery are my issues.  The 3rd ref is there to monitor it and they usually don't. 

Way to much off the ball illegal contact again this year.

Throwback1

We know how the powers that be are, reacting instead of acting...just a matter of time until there's a huge brawl/riot involving teams and fans because of the tactics you reference, and then they'll try to do something to try to prevent it from happening again.

Quite Frankly

Until they make it fun for the kids to be there, I'll be suprised if there is enough to have a brawl.

Basketball crowds are more adult dominated by the game and year.

But that's an entirely different subject.

philgoodallday

I wouldn't say that hs basketball has become less or more physical over the years.  I know certain rule changes have helped the game's slower players.  As a small, unathletic guard in high school, I often had to change my way of playing when a defender offered a good hand-check.  I once played against Derek Fischer, and I couldn't do squat against him because his hands were so strong.  He was definitely the most physical on and off-ball defender I ever saw.  Had he not been allowed to keep throwing my balance off with a touch of the hand, I might have been on the court for more than a quarter.  They've gotten rid of most of that hand-check, and I think the advantage goes greatly to the offensive player.

On the other side, I wasn't the greatest defender.  If I hadn't been good at discreetly grabbing jerseys while guys were going through screens, or chicken-winging occasionally, I wouldn't have been able to hang with a lot of the guys I guarded.

I wouldn't teach guys anything other than to screen properly, to fight as hard as possible through screens, etc., but they usually figure out short-cuts on their own.  I do think you have a responsibility to reign them in if physicality gives way to danger.

Ty

Went and watched the small school State Tournament this past weekend in Oklahoma.

Team that won Class A this year (and our biggest rival) played extremely physical and in your face defense despite the fact that all three teams they beat were more athletic than they were.

I was a 5'8'' post my freshman year but was able to guard any kid 6'3'' to 6'6'' due to how physical I played and my knowledge of leverage, positioning, etc.

philgoodallday

I like when guys play very physical to start.  Refs tend to let a lot of fouls go later in the game, even if they had to blow the whistle a lot to start the game...assuming you just back off a little.  Also, you can more easily get into a teams heads if you are all over them to start the game.

OlGuyWicker

I am getting sick of some of the weak charges that are now being called after the defense shoves and shoves, then the offense makes a little contact, and the defender flops. 

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