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So how did Kelley's vaunted strategy of not punting and onside kicking work out?

Started by Dudeness, November 25, 2012, 12:26:36 am

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Dudeness

I didn't see the game, so I'm genuinely curious. Did his refusal to punt or kick-off hurt him?

Pioneernation

I'll tell you that they never recovers an onside kick and they was only able to convert about 3 4th down conversions. The Pioneers onside kicked twice and recovered one if them. I'll let you be the judge. It was a very good and hard hitting game and both teams played their hearts out!!!

AT

I watched the game. I would say it hurt him a little this game, but it's hard to say it's a bad strategy when it's worked this long.

We may see teams start copying the Batesville defensive coordinators strategy, though, against PA.

johnharrison

Batesville recovered a kick in the  first half, but it was a little long to call it "onsides"  It was high and short and the receiver called a fair catch and muffed it.

I think the lack of a punt hurt PA, but Batesvilled had them out classed so it didn't affect the outcome.

Lionheart88

Quote from: Almatrackster on November 25, 2012, 02:10:17 pm
I watched the game. I would say it hurt him a little this game, but it's hard to say it's a bad strategy when it's worked this long.

We may see teams start copying the Batesville defensive coordinators strategy, though, against PA.
What was that?

C-Mac 73

Batesville recovered every onside kick, and won the special teams battle. Not to mention, dominated the trench battle. This led to a win on cruise control. If you want to see a football coach, come on up to Batesville and talk to our defensive coordinator. Coach Stu Smith is not just a DC, he is a FOOTBALL coach and a players coach. He sits in the locker room and talks to players about whatever in his spare time and really gets to know his players. He has won state championships as a baseball coach, too. He bleeds Batesville Pioneers.

IYK_DA NATION

Quote from: C-Mac 73 on November 25, 2012, 02:22:35 pm
Batesville recovered every onside kick, and won the special teams battle. Not to mention, dominated the trench battle. This led to a win on cruise control. If you want to see a football coach, come on up to Batesville and talk to our defensive coordinator. Coach Stu Smith is not just a DC, he is a FOOTBALL coach and a players coach. He sits in the locker room and talks to players about whatever in his spare time and really gets to know his players. He has won state championships as a baseball coach, too. He bleeds Batesville Pioneers.
+1mil c-mac

C-Mac 73


Dudeness

My theory is that Kelley's strategy works because his teams are more talented than their opponents 95% of the time. Against an equal or superior opponent, his glorious system will get mixed results at best.

In particular I'm referring to his refusal to punt even when deep in his own territory with 10+ yards to go. It's incredibly cocky and only works when your team is clearly better than your opponent.

NeverQuit

I agree with the assessments above. The thing that baffled me was the fact that he NEVER adjusted. Maybe he didn't realize that it wasn't working. A really good coach is able to adjust when his game plan is failing. Coach Kelly made no adjustments. I'm glad he kept on doing his regular thing because it worked well for the Pioneers, but if I was a PA person I'd be questioning his strategy - or lack of strategy.

AT

Quote from: Lionheart88 on November 25, 2012, 02:18:44 pm
Quote from: Almatrackster on November 25, 2012, 02:10:17 pm
I watched the game. I would say it hurt him a little this game, but it's hard to say it's a bad strategy when it's worked this long.

We may see teams start copying the Batesville defensive coordinators strategy, though, against PA.
What was that?

That's a great question. I don't pretend to know the X's and O's of football extremely well, but I can tell you that PA had no answer to what Batesville threw at them in every facet of the game.

The big play threat was the only thiing PA had going...that worked three times, but those 3 plays seriously were the only plays I can think of that made an impact on offense for the Bruins.

Dudeness

Quote from: NeverQuit on November 25, 2012, 04:04:46 pm
I agree with the assessments above. The thing that baffled me was the fact that he NEVER adjusted. Maybe he didn't realize that it wasn't working. A really good coach is able to adjust when his game plan is failing. Coach Kelly made no adjustments. I'm glad he kept on doing his regular thing because it worked well for the Pioneers, but if I was a PA person I'd be questioning his strategy - or lack of strategy.

Here's the thing: Kelley has received national notoriety for his "cutting edge" strategy. When asked what makes his teams so good, the number one answer is "the system." Live or die, he'll stick with his radical system. He's got the championships to back him up.

Thing is, he's a great coach without his radical system. PA gets their boys ready, they have the best passing offense in the state, and Kelley's players love him. Even a modified version of his system would be admirable. Onsides kicks every time are not really that radical. Going for it on 4th down whenever you're in the other team's territory wouldn't be that radical. But it's that extreme version of his system that helps them lose games to teams like Batesville who are as good or better.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the near future, because PA looks to be headed for a slight drop-off in talent the next couple of years.

Lionheart88

He can scream system all he wants, everybody knows a huge part of their success is getting (essentially) whoever they want, not being limited to a district.  Anyone's "system" is going to work better with their pick of athletes to run it.

AT

But to be fair, his "system" wasn't the only reason or even the main reason he lost. Batesville's offensive and defensive lines manhandled their PA counterparts, and that was the ultimate factor in my opinion.

gatecrasher

Considering Kevin Kelley wins at about a 90% clip, and has two state championships to his credit, his system works.

He went 10-3 in a rebuilding year. Just sayin.

boaz34

P.A. Got beat by a better team Friday night. I can tell there is not a better coach in Arkansas then Kevin Kelley. What's funny is that you all can get on here and say that he recruit, but you can not prove it. That's really sad that people can not just give the man and his staff credit for being great coaches. Them boys work very hard in Temps during the summer that some of you would say its crazy, because that is what you have to do to contend for a state championship. Batesville,  is a great team, good luck to them and also good luck to CF. Kevin Kelley is a great Man a lot of people don't like him, but that is OK you have to give him respect that is due to him. He had 6 kids that signed D1 scholarship last year, and still made to the semifinal this year. Pulaski Academy got the best Head Coach in the state and coaching staff. So just keep on bad mouthing P.A. IT just proves that you want to be part of a great Tradition...He teaches them Boys how to be men and how to be responsible for there actions, so all of you people that thinks he is a Bad person, get to know the man first. Not just what you see on Friday nights.  Good luck to both teams. 

Uncle Ivan

Quote from: Dudeness on November 25, 2012, 03:59:35 pm
My theory is that Kelley's strategy works because his teams are more talented than their opponents 95% of the time.

Pre-flippin-cisely. 

And, why is that?

Quote from: Lionheart88 on November 25, 2012, 04:46:42 pm
He can scream system all he wants, everybody knows a huge part of their success is getting (essentially) whoever they want, not being limited to a district.  Anyone's "system" is going to work better with their pick of athletes to run it.

There's the answer.

It's easier to run a strange system when you aren't constrained by the rules like 99% of your opponents are.

NeverQuit

Quote from: boaz34 on November 25, 2012, 07:49:44 pm
P.A. Got beat by a better team Friday night. I can tell there is not a better coach in Arkansas then Kevin Kelley. What's funny is that you all can get on here and say that he recruit, but you can not prove it. That's really sad that people can not just give the man and his staff credit for being great coaches. Them boys work very hard in Temps during the summer that some of you would say its crazy, because that is what you have to do to contend for a state championship. Batesville,  is a great team, good luck to them and also good luck to CF. Kevin Kelley is a great Man a lot of people don't like him, but that is OK you have to give him respect that is due to him. He had 6 kids that signed D1 scholarship last year, and still made to the semifinal this year. Pulaski Academy got the best Head Coach in the state and coaching staff. So just keep on bad mouthing P.A. IT just proves that you want to be part of a great Tradition...He teaches them Boys how to be men and how to be responsible for there actions, so all of you people that thinks he is a Bad person, get to know the man first. Not just what you see on Friday nights.  Good luck to both teams.

I haven't read where anyone bad-mouthed him as a person. Most of these posts just question why he doesn't adjust when his 'system' isn't working. I haven't read any other of the PA threads, but nobody here is questioning anything but what he did - or didn't do - Friday night. He's obviously a good coach or he wouldn't have the record he has.

johnharrison

Danged, usually people moron about the private schools when they are winning, not after they got their hat handed to them by a better team.

I've spent a lot of Spring soccer days at schools from 7A to 3A.  At some schools off season football is invisible, at some hit and miss, but I never spent a whole afternoon at PA that I wasn't truly impressed with the off season work being done by their underclassmen.

I didn't follow the PA roster this year to see who they are accused of "recruiting" but late in the summer, I heard more allegations of recruiting against Batesville than PA.  I just assume the AAA looks at it and makes sure the rules are followed.

Dudeness

Quote from: johnharrison on November 25, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
Danged, usually people moron about the private schools when they are winning, not after they got their hat handed to them by a better team.

I've spent a lot of Spring soccer days at schools from 7A to 3A.  At some schools off season football is invisible, at some hit and miss, but I never spent a whole afternoon at PA that I wasn't truly impressed with the off season work being done by their underclassmen.

I didn't follow the PA roster this year to see who they are accused of "recruiting" but late in the summer, I heard more allegations of recruiting against Batesville than PA.  I just assume the AAA looks at it and makes sure the rules are followed.

This thread is about Kelley's insistence on going for it on 4th down in his own territory. That part of his system gets him a lot of attention, but I think it hurts his team when evenly matched. We shall see, because they are not going to dominate 5A the next couple of years.

7AFBFAN


Dudeness

Quote from: gatecrasher on November 25, 2012, 07:37:42 pm
Considering Kevin Kelley wins at about a 90% clip, and has two state championships to his credit, his system works.

He went 10-3 in a rebuilding year. Just sayin.

This was not a rebuilding year. He had a senior QB, a Top 150 recruit who will be playing for the Hogs next year, and his leading receiver from this year's team will be playing for UCA next year.

Next year, now that's a rebuilding year.

Dudeness

Quote from: 7AFBFAN on November 25, 2012, 09:08:06 pm
From what I hear next year will be a tough one for PA.

It's true, but they still could go undefeated in the incredibly weak Central division.  ::)

Intelligentsia

Quote from: johnharrison on November 25, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
Danged, usually people moron about the private schools when they are winning, not after they got their hat handed to them by a better team.

I've spent a lot of Spring soccer days at schools from 7A to 3A.  At some schools off season football is invisible, at some hit and miss, but I never spent a whole afternoon at PA that I wasn't truly impressed with the off season work being done by their underclassmen.

I didn't follow the PA roster this year to see who they are accused of "recruiting" but late in the summer, I heard more allegations of recruiting against Batesville than PA.  I just assume the AAA looks at it and makes sure the rules are followed.

Allegations against Batesville?  What you must have heard was rumor that another area school recruited kids AWAY from Batesville.  We lost four players to one area school and two to another.  I would not say that they were recruited but I doubt they were discouraged when they went knocking on the door of our neighboring districts.  Among those who LEFT Batesville were a 1) top reciever/secondary defender, 2) the single season record rushing RB who would have been the all time leading RB had he stayed, 3) a junior defender who would have started at corner, 4) a senior who would have played a lot in secondary defense, 5) a starting fullback, and 6) an all purpose player who would have started on one side of the ball.  I can think of only one player who transferred from another school last year who is starting and that player from a school which struggles to win more than one game per year.  Batesville recuriting? I think you got your story from a poor source.  BTW, the sign of a solid football program, one that incurs the normal loss of graduation AND the losses incured above and then still manages to field a team in the finals of their division.

Lionheart88

Quote from: johnharrison on November 25, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
Danged, usually people moron about the private schools when they are winning, not after they got their hat handed to them by a better team.

I've spent a lot of Spring soccer days at schools from 7A to 3A.  At some schools off season football is invisible, at some hit and miss, but I never spent a whole afternoon at PA that I wasn't truly impressed with the off season work being done by their underclassmen.

I didn't follow the PA roster this year to see who they are accused of "recruiting" but late in the summer, I heard more allegations of recruiting against Batesville than PA.  I just assume the AAA looks at it and makes sure the rules are followed.
I believe you're thinking of Batesville Southide(of the 2-4A), which received several fortuitous transfers from Batesville(of the 5A East) this year.

vtowneagles

PA has a QB coming up this year an he will be a stud! But pa will lack receivers and will not be very good! Batesville game plan against pa was we are going to line up and punch u n the mouth every single play and then ask you how u like it! And the did it very well! I mean every play it seemed like batesville had someone in the backfield! 

Panther85

With the D-1 players they have signed, and with the huge offensive numbers they put up....it's interesting that they have never had a skill position player (QB, RB, WR) go to a major college conference (SEC, Big 12, Pac 10, etc,) and be THE guy or become a dominant player at that level.

vtowneagles


Panther85

I agree - I think Henry will be their first skill player to go big time. I think the Wallace kid is equally as good, in a different style obviously. He's committed to UCA I believe.

Uncle Ivan

Quote from: johnharrison on November 25, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
Danged, usually people moron about the private schools when they are winning, not after they got their hat handed to them by a better team.

All of them go 0-10, I'm still gonna talk crap.

Quote from: johnharrison on November 25, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
but late in the summer, I heard more allegations of recruiting against Batesville than PA.  I just assume the AAA looks at it and makes sure the rules are followed.

Against Batesville, or directed at Batesville?  (glances in Southside's direction) Methinks you need to look at things more clearly.

The AAA generally doesn't care as long as they get their cash.

C-Mac 73

Quote from: Lionheart88 on November 25, 2012, 10:11:37 pm
Quote from: johnharrison on November 25, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
Danged, usually people moron about the private schools when they are winning, not after they got their hat handed to them by a better team.

I've spent a lot of Spring soccer days at schools from 7A to 3A.  At some schools off season football is invisible, at some hit and miss, but I never spent a whole afternoon at PA that I wasn't truly impressed with the off season work being done by their underclassmen.

I didn't follow the PA roster this year to see who they are accused of "recruiting" but late in the summer, I heard more allegations of recruiting against Batesville than PA.  I just assume the AAA looks at it and makes sure the rules are followed.
I believe you're thinking of Batesville Southide(of the 2-4A), which received several fortuitous transfers from Batesville(of the 5A East) this year.
Yes, it was the south side of Batesville who got the transfers. They thought at the time it would make them a 4A contender and they could beat Batesville. That really worked out...

The_Pioneer

Shhh, the SS types get their panties bunched up if you poo poo their little team.  Some even think we'd be a 4th place team in their conference.

C-Mac 73

We would definitely, positively, for sure, no doubt lose to Lonoke, Dollarway, and Stuttgart. Newport has really come around too. They would most likely beat us, along with SS. We could probably beat Marianna or Clinton on a good night though.

photographer

Quote from: C-Mac 73 on November 26, 2012, 08:46:41 am
We would definitely, positively, for sure, no doubt lose to Lonoke, Dollarway, and Stuttgart. Newport has really come around too. They would most likely beat us, along with SS. We could probably beat Marianna or Clinton on a good night though.


+100000000000000000

C-Mac 73

Quote from: photographer on November 26, 2012, 10:55:33 am
Quote from: C-Mac 73 on November 26, 2012, 08:46:41 am
We would definitely, positively, for sure, no doubt lose to Lonoke, Dollarway, and Stuttgart. Newport has really come around too. They would most likely beat us, along with SS. We could probably beat Marianna or Clinton on a good night though.


+100000000000000000
SouthernerPride once said that. I think he ate his crow already, though. I shouldn't talk bad about him. I just hope I don't have to eat any Saturday. Pioneers by 10... I'm sticking with it.

#5

Coach Kelley ha won THREE State Champuonships (2003, 2008 & 2011).  He has been in the Semi-Finals eight of his ten years as the Head Coach of the Bruins.  I'm not sure how many times he has been to the Championship game and lost.  The ONLY Banners that hag in the Gym are State Championships.  I know without a doubt he builds Great Men, Husbands & Fathers

The Future

Quote from: #5 on November 26, 2012, 01:12:45 pm
Coach Kelley ha won THREE State Champuonships (2003, 2008 & 2011).  He has been in the Semi-Finals eight of his ten years as the Head Coach of the Bruins.  I'm not sure how many times he has been to the Championship game and lost.  The ONLY Banners that hag in the Gym are State Championships.  I know without a doubt he builds Great Men, Husbands & Fathers

Sounds like a great guy. Maybe if you ask him, he could give you a dictionary or lessons on how to type. Seriously though. Were you just so excited to get out your post that you didn't look to see what you put? Or is that how they teach 'Murican English at PA? LOL

#5

I'm not sure why you insist on being critical, but that's okay.  My intent wa to correct the post that stated Coach Kelley had won 2 state titles. 
However, I believe he has made the statement that his reasons for not punting and attempting on-sides kicks a majority of the time, is the belief that these things "Give his Team the best opportunity to Win".
With All Due Respect.
Have a Blessed Day.

C-Mac 73

Quote from: #5 on November 26, 2012, 02:48:45 pm
I'm not sure why you insist on being critical, but that's okay.  My intent wa to correct the post that stated Coach Kelley had won 2 state titles. 
However, I believe he has made the statement that his reasons for not punting and attempting on-sides kicks a majority of the time, is the belief that these things "Give his Team the best opportunity to Win".
With All Due Respect.
Have a Blessed Day.
Don't mind him... He is from Greenwood. They think they are perfect. TTofGreenwood is the only one I like.

C-Mac 73


pantherblue

Quote from: C-Mac 73 on November 26, 2012, 02:55:15 pm
Quote from: #5 on November 26, 2012, 02:48:45 pm
I'm not sure why you insist on being critical, but that's okay.  My intent wa to correct the post that stated Coach Kelley had won 2 state titles. 
However, I believe he has made the statement that his reasons for not punting and attempting on-sides kicks a majority of the time, is the belief that these things "Give his Team the best opportunity to Win".
With All Due Respect.
Have a Blessed Day.
Don't mind him... He is from Greenwood. They think they are perfect. TTofGreenwood is the only one I like.

Greenwood only has one poster but he has 15 different handles.....

C-Mac 73

Quote from: pantherblue on November 26, 2012, 02:56:25 pm
Quote from: C-Mac 73 on November 26, 2012, 02:55:15 pm
Quote from: #5 on November 26, 2012, 02:48:45 pm
I'm not sure why you insist on being critical, but that's okay.  My intent wa to correct the post that stated Coach Kelley had won 2 state titles. 
However, I believe he has made the statement that his reasons for not punting and attempting on-sides kicks a majority of the time, is the belief that these things "Give his Team the best opportunity to Win".
With All Due Respect.
Have a Blessed Day.
Don't mind him... He is from Greenwood. They think they are perfect. TTofGreenwood is the only one I like.

Greenwood only has one poster but he has 15 different handles.....
You know what they say about Greenwood... There's a coach for that. One of their 37 coaches is dedicated to handling the 5A message boards.

#5

Are there really those of you out there that believe Coach Kelley's success has something to do with something other than "coaching" and work in the weight room and on the practice field. Coach Kelley and his Staff take the boys that sign-up for football and set high expectations for them, "coach them up" and win a lot of football games.  Many of you have teams with far more talent year-in, year-out and fall short.  You're only option is to cry "Coach Kelley is a cheater".  And furthermore, celebrate like you have won a championship if or when you get a win over one of his teams.  One more sign he is a Great Coach.

C-Mac 73

I think you are referring to the "recruiting." While I don't think it is prevalent in high school football, common sense would say that private schools do have a little better option. Now, do coaches really roam around the area looking for guys who look like athletes and find ways to pay for their school? I doubt it. But, there probably is some undercover work where maybe a few players get to the private school, or maybe just want to go there. As I said, I don't think it is that prevalent. I agree with your point that Kelley is a great coach. He has titles to back that up.

#5

If... what you say is true.  Who is it Coach Kelley "recruited"?  "Name" names or let it go!  Also, no one mentions Catholic High School. LR Christian, C.A.C. Etc., why because they haven't had continued success? El Dirado won 3 consecutive titles.  How many has Greenwood won in a row?  No one is using the "R" word with any of these schools?  Stop looking for someone or something to blame and go to work.

Lionheart88

No one's paying for a kid's family to move into a school district.  That's just silly.  That's why you don't hear much talk of public schools recruiting.  Acting like no one has ever had help going to PA because someone thought they showed promise in a sport, any sport, is just as silly.  Even if Kelly isn't out making phone calls to promising young middle schoolers, PA takes applications.  You're telling me no one's ever said, or even thought, "Hey, this kid has talent, make sure his application goes through"?  That stuff happens anywhere applications are being taken.  More promising folks (whether it's athletics, academics, who they're related to, whatever) gets bumped ahead of people who, but for that one characteristic, would have had an equal shot.



Also, the reason people don't talk about LRCA, CAC, Catholic/Mount St. Mary's etc is that this is the football section.  Scroll down to the soccer pages and see how that changes.

pantherblue

I mentioned catholic high. They are true students that put education first not sports. The council at catholic high enjoy sports but that's not why they are there.

#5

Who?...  Public schools are close enough in proximity that a kid has choices, especially, if a School has "Magnet" in front of it's name.  In that case the school district will provide transportation.  In other situations, has the AAA done away with "school of choice"?  Where a student can attend anywhere they want, as long s they provide their own transportation?

TheHogHead

Far, far, far more recruitment goes on by public schools.  It's not close.  Nobody recruits like Lake Hamilton High or El Dorado, and if you can do it, do it.  Why does Murphy Oil pay for a El Do's college, to bring and keep quality families in their district.  Let a kid grow up in Hot Springs and be extremely talented at football or softball or volleyball and not be "asked" to come to Lake Hamilton to better themselves.  Happens all the time. 

The thing that PA and LRCA and the rest have going against them is that they are being watched extremely closely and you can't go for free or provide scholarships based on abilities no matter what anyone else thinks.  As for Coach Kelly's system, you gotta dance with the girl that brought you.  His titles and title appearances have 1 thing in common, his commitment to the system.  Though he did punt against LRCA in the Dyer years and West Helena in the title game when it was 4th and forever late in the game with the ball inside the WH Red Zone.

RD™


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