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Has anyone heard from the Warren kid that walked onto the field?

Started by Little Bear, December 11, 2017, 12:18:48 pm

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AirWarren

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 11:05:05 am
They had a free timeout during the time the moron was being handcuffed and hauled away. The could've called a different play/substituted. I.E. free timeout.

Again...not Hembree's or Eldridge's fault that happened. The Warren coach and Arkadelphia coach had time to set their plays up during the disruption.

You don't prepare for a game in case a fan runs out on the field.

But by your logic, say a player is injured and the game is stopped. I suppose that warrants a penalty as well? To the injured players team? I mean, it is indeed a "free timeout"? I guess we should start penalizing every team who has an injury because the other team can "devise a different play".

And before you say it, injuries are different. No they are not. They are both shocks and happen unexpectedly. Just like the situation where a fans run out on the field.

This should have been handled just like any other action. When there is disruption, play is halted...as is. Disruption is removed. Then, everything is resumed from where it was left off. This is common logic that can be applied from as anything as a bathroom break in the middle of reading a book or a 4th quarter of a football game and there is a disruption. Ball set. Game on.

Rugman15

Quote from: AirWarren on December 12, 2017, 11:14:06 am
Again...not Hembree's or Eldridge's fault that happened. The Warren coach and Arkadelphia coach had time to set their plays up during the disruption.

You don't prepare for a game in case a fan runs out on the field.

But by your logic, say a player is injured and the game is stopped. I suppose that warrants a penalty as well? To the injured players team? I mean, it is indeed a "free timeout"? I guess we should start penalizing every team who has an injury because the other team can "devise a different play".

And before you say it, injuries are different. No they are not. They are both shocks and happen unexpectedly. Just like the situation where a fans run out on the field.

This should have been handled just like any other action. When there is disruption, play is halted...as is. Disruption is removed. Then, everything is resumed from where it was left off. This is common logic that can be applied from as anything as a bathroom break in the middle of reading a book or a 4th quarter of a football game and there is a disruption. Ball set. Game on.

Basically sums it up AW!  +1 and I second this.

AirWarren

What it boils down to, is that these cops they have standing all over the place during the game need to be facing the stands. Not the game. This is the second time this has happened this year where security was breeched at WMS and a fan entered the field. 1 was naked, the other was just dared. This needs to be addressed for sure.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: AirWarren on December 12, 2017, 11:14:06 am
Again...not Hembree's or Eldridge's fault that happened. The Warren coach and Arkadelphia coach had time to set their plays up during the disruption.

You don't prepare for a game in case a fan runs out on the field.

But by your logic, say a player is injured and the game is stopped. I suppose that warrants a penalty as well? To the injured players team? I mean, it is indeed a "free timeout"? I guess we should start penalizing every team who has an injury because the other team can "devise a different play".

And before you say it, injuries are different. No they are not. They are both shocks and happen unexpectedly. Just like the situation where a fans run out on the field.

This should have been handled just like any other action. When there is disruption, play is halted...as is. Disruption is removed. Then, everything is resumed from where it was left off. This is common logic that can be applied from as anything as a bathroom break in the middle of reading a book or a 4th quarter of a football game and there is a disruption. Ball set. Game on.

Injuries are CLEARLY different than a moron running onto the field. Why do you think they have a 10 second runoff in college and pro when someone gets hurt in the last few minutes? To prevent teams from getting a free timeout...

Obviously, there is no runoff in high school, but then again that didn't happen Saturday, so your scenario is moot.

FF Secretary of Defense Flap_Jack48

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 11:12:46 am
Yes, but they tried to bring the FG team out before they assessed the penalty, which they previously not going to do on that play.

I think the easiest and smartest solution would have been:

No penalty for tha fan coming onto the field, it was ridiculous to begin with and the backlash only proves further how erroneous the decision was to flag a team for the actions of a young fan who clearly didn't assess the situation.  Warren coaching staff is not in charge of maintaining the security for the field, that's on the security at WMS. Period.

Once the stoppage happened BOTH teams benefited. Warren had a chance to call a set play, Arkadelphia the chance to get into a set defense (remember they were scrambling around too). Both coaching staffs should have been informed that the clock would run at the setting of the ball (3 seconds remaining). Personnel could NOT be subbed, so they'd have to send the players that were on the field back out there. That prevents Warren from attempting the field goal and forces them to basically score to win. That gives, in my opinion, no greater advantage to either team because it allows them to both call set plays, and Arkadelphia still had a TO do they could have logistically seen what Warren lined up in and called a TO if they wanted. Of course, at that point Warren could have run the FG unit out so I wouldn't have advised that.

That solution covers all bases. Doesn't give Warren more time, doesn't allow them to attempt a FG, gives both teams the advantage of calling set plays and allows the final play to be decided on the field—not by the officiating. I wish the refs had been keen enough to figure this out on their own, but as they did all afternoon they completely fumbled their way through the situation. As I mentioned earlier, if nothing else comes out of this game I hope at the very least that officiating crew is never allowed to call a game in Arkansas high school football again. Complete incompetence from the first to final whistle.

-Kyle

Redlinebacker32


SUGARTOWN

Only problem with that is, you're assuming the refs knew exactly which 22 players were out on the field. I assure you they didn't.

So they would've told Warren to run the exact same play they were going to run? Again, they don't know what play they were going to run. The Jacks could've ran another play since the Badgers had already seen the alignment and that's not really right either.

There's no perfect solution, thats for sure.

hogfan10

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 11:47:02 am
Only problem with that is, you're assuming the refs knew exactly which 22 players were out on the field. I assure you they didn't.

So they would've told Warren to run the exact same play they were going to run? Again, they don't know what play they were going to run. The Jacks could've ran another play since the Badgers had already seen the alignment and that's not really right either.

There's no perfect solution, thats for sure.

And if Arkadelphia calls a timeout to adjust to new personnel, Warren then brings on the FG team.
Arkadelphia had the upper hand b/4 the stoppage.

Rugman15

Quote from: hogfan10 on December 12, 2017, 11:55:37 am
And if Arkadelphia calls a timeout to adjust to new personnel, Warren then brings on the FG team.
Arkadelphia had the upper hand b/4 the stoppage.

Why would anyone call a timeout after a stoppage that long?  Heck yeah Warren should bring out the FG team if Arky stops the clock for them if it was a running clock and the refs didn't retaliate with a penalty

FF Secretary of Defense Flap_Jack48

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 11:47:02 am
Only problem with that is, you're assuming the refs knew exactly which 22 players were out on the field. I assure you they didn't.

So they would've told Warren to run the exact same play they were going to run? Again, they don't know what play they were going to run. The Jacks could've ran another play since the Badgers had already seen the alignment and that's not really right either.

There's no perfect solution, thats for sure.

You're overthinking this bud. Big time. Warren wouldn't have had to run the same play, just send out the same personnel.  Same with Arkie. They didn't have a defensive play called from what I could tell, they were in survival mode and scrambling around. You could say the timeout even favors the Badgers more because a set defense is better than one running around in a panic.

My solution provides for the most sensible ending that gives the fans what they want and makes thing equitable for both teams. The ending we got was just terrible all the way around. They added time, which I didn't agree with, penalized Warren which is completely bogus.

I would just want to see the game decided on the field and the officials stuck their nose in it and prevented that from happening with their management of a poor situation.

It is what it is though. I've said from the omentntge game ended that's a Arkadelphia is the champion, they earned it on the field and outplayed Warren the entire first half. But in my mind, and a lot of fans minds, we'll always be left wondering "what if". Oh well, looking forward to warren being back next season and seeing Burks in his season! Should be fun!

-Kyle

FF Secretary of Defense Flap_Jack48

Quote from: Rugman15 on December 12, 2017, 11:58:38 am
Why would anyone call a timeout after a stoppage that long?  Heck yeah Warren should bring out the FG team if Arky stops the clock for them if it was a running clock and the refs didn't retaliate with a penalty

+1, if the Badgers make that call, then well, they'd have to live with it when Warren brings on the FG unit.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: FF Secretary of Defense Flap_Jack48 on December 12, 2017, 12:03:15 pm
You're overthinking this bud. Big time. Warren wouldn't have had to run the same play, just send out the same personnel.  Same with Arkie. They didn't have a defensive play called from what I could tell, they were in survival mode and scrambling around. You could say the timeout even favors the Badgers more because a set defense is better than one running around in a panic.

My solution provides for the most sensible ending that gives the fans what they want and makes thing equitable for both teams. The ending we got was just terrible all the way around. They added time, which I didn't agree with, penalized Warren which is completely bogus.

The penalty is not completely bogus if you read the rule that has been linked on here several times.

But, this would've all been avoided had they not completely blown the Burks fumble call a few plays earlier.

LAfootball fan

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 11:10:26 am
Nope, not fair at all. Warren was scrambling. Just an unfortunate situation.

And Arkadelphia's defense was scrambling.  NO advantage either way.  When Warren snapped the ball, they had one on one coverage with the middle of the field WIDE open for a slant pass or post route to the WR, which was #7 McKnight.  Warren had a definite advantage to run a play without fan interference with one of their playmakers in one on one coverage.  Warren could have thrown the ball at the running backs feet to kill the clock also.  That is perfectly legal and Burks had time to do it and get the clock stopped and bring the field goal team on.  Once the penalty was assessed, bringing the field goal team on was out of the question due to kicking into the wind.  This nonsense about Warren running another play or substituting players is a non issue.  Arkadelphia had the same amount of time to set what defense they wanted to run, substitute who they wanted on the final play etc.  The bottom line, the players would have decided the game at the 8 yard line, which is where the ball was when play was stopped. 

Didn't matter if it was a Warren fan, Arkadelphia fan, or someone just looking for their 15 seconds of fame.  I would feel the same way if the situations were reversed and Arkadelphia was trying to score and one of their fans ran onto the field.  I would not want to see their team penalized for a fans actions they had no control of.


Rugman15

Quote from: LAfootball fan on December 12, 2017, 12:08:33 pm
And Arkadelphia's defense was scrambling.  NO advantage either way.  When Warren snapped the ball, they had one on one coverage with the middle of the field WIDE open for a slant pass or post route to the WR, which was #7 McKnight.  Warren had a definite advantage to run a play without fan interference with one of their playmakers in one on one coverage.  Warren could have thrown the ball at the running backs feet to kill the clock also.  That is perfectly legal and Burks had time to do it and get the clock stopped and bring the field goal team on.  Once the penalty was assessed, bringing the field goal team on was out of the question due to kicking into the wind.  This nonsense about Warren running another play or substituting players is a non issue.  Arkadelphia had the same amount of time to set what defense they wanted to run, substitute who they wanted on the final play etc.  The bottom line, the players would have decided the game at the 8 yard line, which is where the ball was when play was stopped. 

Didn't matter if it was a Warren fan, Arkadelphia fan, or someone just looking for their 15 seconds of fame.  I would feel the same way if the situations were reversed and Arkadelphia was trying to score and one of their fans ran onto the field.  I would not want to see their team penalized for a fans actions they had no control of.

+1, thank goodness there is still logic on FF! 

SUGARTOWN

You're wrong. Throwing the ball directly at someone's feet to stop the clock can still be called intentional grounding. And with these refs it probably would've been called.

LAfootball fan

No I am not wrong.  The running backs are eligible receivers and it doesn't matter why you throw the ball at their feet.  You can do it to keep from getting sacked just as well as to stop the clock.  The key is getting the ball close enough to them that it looks like a legitimate attempt to throw the ball to them.  You are right though.  I wouldn't trust that crew to not call intentional grounding.  That head ref should have been put out to pasture long before now. 

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: LAfootball fan on December 12, 2017, 12:27:01 pm
No I am not wrong.  The running backs are eligible receivers and it doesn't matter why you throw the ball at their feet.  You can do it to keep from getting sacked just as well as to stop the clock.  The key is getting the ball close enough to them that it looks like a legitimate attempt to throw the ball to them.  You are right though.  I wouldn't trust that crew to not call intentional grounding.  That head ref should have been put out to pasture long before now.

If the running backs are just standing there with their backs to him like they were, it's clearly not a legitimate attempt to throw it to them.

hogfan10

Quote from: Rugman15 on December 12, 2017, 11:58:38 am
Why would anyone call a timeout after a stoppage that long?  Heck yeah Warren should bring out the FG team if Arky stops the clock for them if it was a running clock and the refs didn't retaliate with a penalty

What part of to adjust to new personnel did you not get.
Obviously if it had been handled as was suggested, Warren could have changed play personnel, to which Arkadelphia might not have been prepared for. Not hard to understand.

Rugman15

Quote from: hogfan10 on December 12, 2017, 12:50:06 pm
What part of to adjust to new personnel did you not get.
Obviously if it had been handled as was suggested, Warren could have changed play personnel, to which Arkadelphia might not have been prepared for. Not hard to understand.

And Arky would also have a chance to change personnel.  Very fair way to do it.  Not hard to understand. 

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: Rugman15 on December 12, 2017, 12:57:20 pm
And Arky would also have a chance to change personnel.  Very fair way to do it.  Not hard to understand.

Not AFTER Warren lined up.

hogfan10


Rugman15


KASH dba The Lumberjack

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 11:01:47 am
And essentially give Warren a free timeout? I don't think so.
So let's say the play clock stops working or scoreboard goes down, we'd all have to agree the are tangibles of the game that are out of the coaches and players control. Whistle gets blown stopping play. This becomes a free timeout for the teams. Same as the whistle being blown to stop play to remove the fan on Saturday.
The rule states that a penalty "can" be called not "shall" be. Can be means at the discretion of the officials, was the wrong call to make.

Ask yourself as a fan of football, not as a homer but an honest fan of the sport, would it not have been better to line back up pre interruption, and let the kids decide. We heard all day Burks is a dude, Burks is a dude. Would it not have been more exciting for those 22 young men to decide the outcome of the game, inside the 10yd line, less than 5secs to go than letting the refs intercede, back the ball up and adding time on the clock? Would Burks be a dude or could Mills stop him again? Or any other player scenario we could come up with.

I've watched the game twice now and I have no problem congratulating the Badgers for winning. In my eyes they played with a little more zest and drive than Warren did. I kept seeing the whole game when any runner had the ball, other teammates would swarm and help move the pile while Warren players stood around several times and watched Burks do his thang. There's no doubt Arkadelphia deserves that trophy. To me, the game just didn't end right. Fairness is out the window, this call is fair, that was the correct call...blah.

To me, as hard as each team fought to get there, for both squads, I think they were robbed of those last few intense, it's either win or lose, down to the wire seconds.

SUGARTOWN

Yeah, but scoreboard DIDN'T go down, so that means nothing.

"As a fan of football", the better outcome would've been for the refs to not miss the obvious fumble about 3 plays earlier.

hogfan10

Quote from: KASH dba The Lumberjack on December 12, 2017, 01:10:37 pm
So let's say the play clock stops working or scoreboard goes down, we'd all have to agree the are tangibles of the game that are out of the coaches and players control. Whistle gets blown stopping play. This becomes a free timeout for the teams. Same as the whistle being blown to stop play to remove the fan on Saturday.
The rule states that a penalty "can" be called not "shall" be. Can be means at the discretion of the officials, was the wrong call to make.

Ask yourself as a fan of football, not as a homer but an honest fan of the sport, would it not have been better to line back up pre interruption, and let the kids decide. We heard all day Burks is a dude, Burks is a dude. Would it not have been more exciting for those 22 young men to decide the outcome of the game, inside the 10yd line, less than 5secs to go than letting the refs intercede, back the ball up and adding time on the clock? Would Burks be a dude or could Mills stop him again? Or any other player scenario we could come up with.

I've watched the game twice now and I have no problem congratulating the Badgers for winning. In my eyes they played with a little more zest and drive than Warren did. I kept seeing the whole game when any runner had the ball, other teammates would swarm and help move the pile while Warren players stood around several times and watched Burks do his thang. There's no doubt Arkadelphia deserves that trophy. To me, the game just didn't end right. Fairness is out the window, this call is fair, that was the correct call...blah.

To me, as hard as each team fought to get there, for both squads, I think they were robbed of those last few intense, it's either win or lose, down to the wire seconds.

OK, let's say their was a fumble that was ruled not a fumble, maybe we should just go back to that point. There are rules in place to handle your hypothetical situations, just as there was a rule to handle what happened on Saturday, Ref's discretion to be equitable to both sides.

Could you possibly a "homer"?

STUNNA

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 01:17:54 pm
Yeah, but scoreboard DIDN'T go down, so that means nothing.

"As a fan of football", the better outcome would've been for the refs to not miss the obvious fumble about 3 plays earlier.

Or the holds and face masks they missed earlier also

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:28:40 pm
Or the holds and face masks they missed earlier also

Eh, you can call holding on every almost play. That's not the same as a fumble.

STUNNA

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 01:30:04 pm
Eh, you can call holding on every almost play. That's not the same as a fumble.

Multiple face masks?

STUNNA

Once again congrats to Arkadelphia but for every fumble excuse theirs also a first down the refs missed.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:33:48 pm
Multiple face masks?

I'm sure they didn't miss any calls in Warren's favor though, right?

Like the 2nd sideline warning, which actually was sideline interference and should've been 15 yards, instead of the 5 they called?

hogfan10

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:28:40 pm
Or the holds and face masks they missed earlier also

So what you're saying is; you have to overcome bad, missed calls during the course of a game. I agree, Arkadelphia overcame, Warren couldn't (even though they were given 2 free plays).

STUNNA

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 01:37:56 pm
I'm sure they didn't miss any calls in Warren's favor though, right?

Like the 2nd sideline warning, which actually was sideline interference and should've been 15 yards, instead of the 5 they called?
First is a warning.. second is 5 yards.

STUNNA

Quote from: hogfan10 on December 12, 2017, 01:39:47 pm
So what you're saying is; you have to overcome bad, missed calls during the course of a game. I agree, Arkadelphia overcame, Warren couldn't (even though they were given 2 free plays).

Sure Arkadelphia did overcome the 3 pantries called against them all game.. lol

hogfan10

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:41:17 pm
Sure Arkadelphia did overcome the 3 pantries called against them all game.. lol

It pays to have discipline.

STUNNA

Quote from: hogfan10 on December 12, 2017, 01:42:02 pm
It pays to have discipline.

Lol.. was that discipline with 2 kids holding Burks after his punt and tackle?

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:40:33 pm
First is a warning.. second is 5 yards.

Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about. When the refs run into a coach who is
out on the field DURING a play, it's sideline interference and 15 yards. It has nothing to do with how many sideline warnings they thrown. It's a totally different penalty.

hogfan10

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:44:02 pm
Lol.. was that discipline with 2 kids holding Burks after his punt and tackle?

If they were holding, they did a poor job of it. I'm sure Warren didn't get away with any holds? I seem to remember Arkadelphia being flagged for holding on the 3rd and 35 completion for 36 yards and a first down. Didn't see it, nor did I see a flag thrown until after the play. Could have been, I don't know, but flag seemed late.

hogfan10

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 01:49:42 pm
Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about. When the refs run into a coach who is
out on the field DURING a play, it's sideline interference and 15 yards. It has nothing to do with how many sideline warnings they thrown. It's a totally different penalty.

And if I'm not mistaken, is it not a possible ejection also.

STUNNA

Quote from: hogfan10 on December 12, 2017, 01:50:57 pm
If they were holding, they did a poor job of it. I'm sure Warren didn't get away with any holds? I seem to remember Arkadelphia being flagged for holding on the 3rd and 35 completion for 36 yards and a first down. Didn't see it, nor did I see a flag thrown until after the play. Could have been, I don't know, but flag seemed late.

So it wasn't a hold?


STUNNA

Once again Arkadelphia are the 2017 state champs! They deserve it!!! They played a very good game and Warren didn't. The referees not so much! And that goes for both teams!

hogfan10


hogfan10

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:54:49 pm
Once again Arkadelphia are the 2017 state champs! They deserve it!!! They played a very good game and Warren didn't. The referees not so much! And that goes for both teams!

Yes they are, and I'm sure they appreciate the backhanded compliment.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: STUNNA on December 12, 2017, 01:52:51 pm
https://www.facebook.com/peggy.barnes.14/posts/10214781591112415

The one on Kinnard is facemask, the other 2 are from the same play and it looks like he's under the facemask.

But I thought you guys weren't blaming the refs...

STUNNA

Quote from: hogfan10 on December 12, 2017, 01:57:52 pm
Yes they are, and I'm sure they appreciate the backhanded compliment.

Backhanded? Lol... i said calls were missed both ways... lol... you'll be fine.. you guys are champs... I'm sure you can handle the compliments.

STUNNA

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on December 12, 2017, 01:58:16 pm
The one on Kinnard is facemask, the other 2 are from the same play and it looks like he's under the facemask.

But I thought you guys weren't blaming the refs...

Blaming the refs would be me saying we lost because of them... i only said they sucked.. lol

bigchief72455

Bottom line no matter the debate and discussion. Arky holds the hardware and gets the ring this year.I am sure they will both be back in the mix next season. Would love to see a rematch. That is if AW thinks those Jacks can even field a team next season. I worry for them sometimes.

Lifetime OWL/Temp BADGER

Let's just act like Warren didn't fumble with 29 seconds to go. We didn't complain nor did our coaches & players. We played through it. Anyone can see it was & fumble & ball game. I'm proud that our coach didn't run all over the field & our players maintained composure.

Jack1990

Congratulations on a hard fought victory Arkadelphia. A game for the ages. Look forward to meeting again in the future.

$aintMaximu$

Quote from: LAfootball fan on December 12, 2017, 12:27:01 pm
No I am not wrong.  The running backs are eligible receivers and it doesn't matter why you throw the ball at their feet.  You can do it to keep from getting sacked just as well as to stop the clock.  The key is getting the ball close enough to them that it looks like a legitimate attempt to throw the ball to them.  You are right though.  I wouldn't trust that crew to not call intentional grounding.  That head ref should have been put out to pasture long before now.

No, throwing at the fullbacks feet would have intent to save time.  This would have been a penalty.  If the intent is to preserve time (from the shotgun) it is a penalty...  Take a peek at some of the officiating forums and this exact scenario comes up and it is always a penalty...   

I'll summarize on the ruling under illegal forward passes -

d.  A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yards or to conserve time.

EXCEPTION- It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.

The scenario was almost exactly like what we are discussing...

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