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House Bill 1474

Started by arthurhawgerelli, February 13, 2017, 02:53:04 pm

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ricepig

Quote from: beach bum on March 02, 2017, 04:22:25 pm
You know what he is saying, but you just argue for the sake of arguing. He is saying they should only be playing in the district they reside if they are not choosing to physically attend school like the rest of society.  Deciding a new team to show up to at 2 pm for practice is not like kids transferring and you know it too. But continue to argue for the fun of it. I am fine with people wanting out of "the system" but do not pick and choose what parts of the system you want to be apart of. They apparently do like the system when it benefits them if people start using this rule. What is the difference then in a kid living in and attending Valley View, but wants to show up at 2 o'clock for practice at Jonesboro High? Under this law a home school kid in the Valley View district can now do that. What makes the home school kid any better than the public school kid to get that option? Stop playing naive please...because each scenario would be the same.

They still have to sit out a year, just like someone who wishes to transfer from a district without a bona fide move. I see no problem with that, and obviously neither does the AAA or school administrators as they didn't oppose it, or garner enough interest if they did. That same kid that attends Valley View can transfer and sit out a year, correct?

Eddie Goodson

As a sitting school board member, I can say it is a mistake to automatically demonize any family that has chosen to home school their children. There a many justified situations where home schooling is the best option for a child to maintain continuity in a their education. Military families and construction worker families are two of those as examples. I have zero problem with them taking part in extra curricular activities considering that they are on the hook for all the costs that the students who attend public school get for free. 

AirWarren

None of you who are opposing who have a team you cheer for would turn down a stud, season changing home school kid from joining your favorite teams.

Much like private schools, parents have the right to choose how and where their child is educated. If it's all done in legal terms, I have no problem with it.

Will we see bends and breaks leading to unfair advantages. You bet we will. But what's the difference in this and:
1. "Scholarship" monies given by big money supporters of private schools to assiat athletes to attend privates.
2. Parents working in certain districts to put their kids in a certain school.
3. Free transferring when a school is in academic distress.
4. School choice?

Life is full of have and have nots. Life isn't fair. Just like playing PA, you gotta beat the best to be the best.

It will never be fool proof. But in the end, it's about the education number 1.

But I'm with Bum. There is nothing better than living in a tight knit community with one school. Kids attend school, begin playing pee wee together, attend church together etc. That is how it's supposed to be.

AirWarren

Here is my question to the school board people.

We all know public charters operate differently through a "lottery" process. Lottery as in selective admission.

Say my daughter is a basketball player that wants to play in a smaller classification like say a Maumelle charter. Would she be allowed or is it traditional public school only?

Lumberjackfan1978

It is what it is but I'm with Bum if a kid in a public school tolerate's the bad behavior and sits in the classroom he deserves to play for that public school.For the homeschool student who choose's not to sit in that class of misbehaving kids I don't think he deserves to play for a public school. Just my opinion.

ricepig

Quote from: Lumberjackfan1978 on March 02, 2017, 10:36:33 pm
It is what it is but I'm with Bum if a kid in a public school tolerate's the bad behavior and sits in the classroom he deserves to play for that public school.For the homeschool student who choose's not to sit in that class of misbehaving kids I don't think he deserves to play for a public school. Just my opinion.

Sounds like that's a school district problem, not an athletic problem. Clean up your academics and behavior issues, and parents won't have to home school their children. I would also imagine that the school's administration, AD, and coaches don't have to allow home school participation.

AirWarren

Quote from: ricepig on March 03, 2017, 07:42:07 am
Sounds like that's a school district problem, not an athletic problem. Clean up your academics and behavior issues, and parents won't have to home school their children. I would also imagine that the school's administration, AD, and coaches don't have to allow home school participation.

It's not just behavior problems. Some parents just don't want their kids around "certain types" of children.

It's the same reason why the folks that live along the lake in lake village, AR send their kids Washington private school in Greenville, MS.

cuckoobird

I think we all know that academics and discipline aren't the only reasons for home schooling. I myself have seen a couple of cases where the child in question, was the one who struggled academically or were getting in trouble and that's why home schooling became an option so the kid wouldn't be heldback or failed. This is the main complaint on my end, that we don't know who is doing lil johhny's work for him and there is no way to ever know yet he gets to participate in extra curricular activities with kids who are held to higher standard.

AirWarren

Quote from: cuckoobird on March 03, 2017, 08:41:18 am
I think we all know that academics and discipline aren't the only reasons for home schooling. I myself have seen a couple of cases where the child in question, was the one who struggled academically or were getting in trouble and that's why home schooling became an option so the kid wouldn't be heldback or failed. This is the main complaint on my end, that we don't know who is doing lil johhny's work for him and there is no way to ever know yet he gets to participate in extra curricular activities with kids who are held to higher standard.

It will come to light when he takes his ACT and grade reporting is turned in.

If indeed he wants to play at the next level.

As the adage goes. Cheaters never prosper.

beach bum

Cuck and AW both with good points... Cuck is right there is no oversight and accountability in home schooling if the parents do not truly care. But as AW said it will truly ultimately catch up to them when real life happens. Also, with all this being said I wanted to be sure to say I am not against home schooling, transfering, private schools, or charter schools.... just this law that only benefits a small group. I don't like loopholes like we all don't.

ricepig

Quote from: AirWarren on March 03, 2017, 08:37:11 am
It's not just behavior problems. Some parents just don't want their kids around "certain types" of children.

It's the same reason why the folks that live along the lake in lake village, AR send their kids Washington private school in Greenville, MS.

Sending kids to private schools isn't the same as home schooling.

OB11

March 03, 2017, 09:09:52 am #61 Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 10:25:14 am by OB11
Quote from: Lumberjackfan1978 on March 02, 2017, 10:36:33 pm
It is what it is but I'm with Bum if a kid in a public school tolerate's the bad behavior and sits in the classroom he deserves to play for that public school.For the homeschool student who choose's not to sit in that class of misbehaving kids I don't think he deserves to play for a public school. Just my opinion.

I understand what you're saying but let's not demonize public schools. Not every public school classroom is full of behavior and discipline issues.

AirWarren

Quote from: ricepig on March 03, 2017, 09:00:43 am
Sending kids to private schools isn't the same as home schooling.

Why? How?

1. Both are controlled environments.
2. Both can(allegedly) create better learning environments.
3. Both are done out of choice of the parents. And parents are in a stable(allegedly) situations that allow them to choose home or private.
4. One required tuition, electronic media costs, book/library costs, and extracurricular costs. One is done at home with no tuition but learning materials, supplies, books, computers etc aren't cheap. Especially if you have multiple children.

ricepig

Quote from: AirWarren on March 03, 2017, 10:11:53 am
Why? How?

1. Both are controlled environments.
2. Both can(allegedly) create better learning environments.
3. Both are done out of choice of the parents. And parents are in a stable(allegedly) situations that allow them to choose home or private.
4. One required tuition, electronic media costs, book/library costs, and extracurricular costs. One is done at home with no tuition but learning materials, supplies, books, computers etc aren't cheap. Especially if you have multiple children.

A lot of that can be said about certain public schools, so not every situation is the same.

cuckoobird

A child only needs to take the act when going to college. Home school children don't have to take any test for that matter

AirWarren

Quote from: cuckoobird on March 03, 2017, 10:37:52 am
A child only needs to take the act when going to college. Home school children don't have to take any test for that matter

You're semi correct.

Parents that care about their kids and run the schooling right do tests. Their 30 on their ACT proved that. For the home schooled kid I knew.

But then again. I know these other idiots who have home school kids that are schooled at home because "her kids don't like the cafeteria food, doesn't want them to be told no" etc. and the 11 year old can't even read. Like I said, the cream will rise to the top when it's time to be an adult. Always does. The garbage will stay near the bottom.

AirWarren

Quote from: ricepig on March 03, 2017, 10:37:31 am
A lot of that can be said about certain public schools, so not every situation is the same.

You proved nothing in your rebuttal. Go to hogville and argue with the idiots over there. Haha

cuckoobird

Oh I agree about rising to the top but I disagree that they should be allowed to participate in extra curricular activities with a school they choose not to be a part of academically

AirWarren

Quote from: cuckoobird on March 03, 2017, 10:48:45 am
Oh I agree about rising to the top but I disagree that they should be allowed to participate in extra curricular activities with a school they choose not to be a part of academically

I guess it just doesn't bother me at all. I dunno.

Jack1990

I believe you will see some athletes that were academically ineligible suddenly become home schooled and now able to play since there is no standard to measure them against nor any governing body to hold them accountable. Just have to see I guess.

OB11

Quote from: Jack1990 on March 03, 2017, 11:08:27 am
I believe you will see some athletes that were academically ineligible suddenly become home schooled and now able to play since there is no standard to measure them against nor any governing body to hold them accountable. Just have to see I guess.

That brings up another question.  If a kid is ruled academically ineligible at their school and gets pulled out to be home-schooled, can they play for that same school's teams?

Say if a kid failed all his classes in the spring and knew he would not be eligible to play academically the next fall could they do this?

ricepig

Quote from: cuckoobird on March 03, 2017, 10:37:52 am
A child only needs to take the act when going to college. Home school children don't have to take any test for that matter

If they wish to play sports/activies they do. Read page 39 of the AAA Handbook on home school athletes. They must have scored in the 30th percentile in the Stanford Achievement Test, or another nationally recognized norm referenced exam in the past 12 months, or a minimum test score on a test approved by the State Board of Education.


ricepig

Quote from: AirWarren on March 03, 2017, 10:41:54 am
You proved nothing in your rebuttal. Go to hogville and argue with the idiots over there. Haha

You're a sufficient enough idiot for me to argue with, lol.

ricepig

Quote from: AirWarren on March 03, 2017, 10:11:53 am
Why? How?

1. Both are controlled environments.
2. Both can(allegedly) create better learning environments.
3. Both are done out of choice of the parents. And parents are in a stable(allegedly) situations that allow them to choose home or private.
4. One required tuition, electronic media costs, book/library costs, and extracurricular costs. One is done at home with no tuition but learning materials, supplies, books, computers etc aren't cheap. Especially if you have multiple children.

Because, in one situation, you are doing the teaching, in another, someone else is. I guess there are a few who could hire someone to teach their children at home, but I don't think we are concerned about that.

ricepig

March 03, 2017, 11:18:57 am #74 Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 11:21:21 am by ricepig
Quote from: OB11 on March 03, 2017, 11:11:18 am
That brings up another question.  If a kid is ruled academically ineligible at their school and gets pulled out to be home-schooled, can they play for that same school's teams?

Say if a kid failed all his classes in the spring and knew he would not be eligible to play academically the next fall could they do this?

Nope, not according to the AD I talked with when this law was passed in 2013. You are ineligible at the school you pulled out of for 365 days. I haven't read the new bill, but I don't see being able to switch school districts and be eligible.

Jack1990

Good point rice. Thank you for the reference in the handbook. Here is the text for those interested.

K. Home School. In accordance with ACT 1469 of 2013, a home school student shall be given the opportunity to try out for an athletic or non-athletic competitive activity or team in their resident public school district if the following criteria are met:
1. Inform the principal of the resident school district in writing of their request to participate in the
interscholastic activity before the signup, tryout, or participation deadlines established for students
enrolled in the resident school district.
2. Inform the principal in the request that the student has demonstrated academic eligibility by
obtaining: a minimum test score of the thirtieth percentile on The Stanford Achievement Test Series, Tenth Edition, or another nationally recognized norm-referenced test in the previous (12) months, or a minimum score on a test approved by the State Board of Education.
3. In order to be eligible to participate, the student must be enrolled within the first (11) days of the fall or spring semester.
4. Meets the same requirements as enrolled students in regards to practice times, required drug testing, permission slips, waivers, physical exams, and participation fees.
5. The student cannot be required to be enrolled in more than (1) period per school day.
6. Be transported by the resident school district to and from interscholastic activities as the resident
school district transports other students who are enrolled in the resident school district.
7. If the student withdraws from an Arkansas Activities Association member school to be home-
schooled, the student shall not participate in an interscholastic activity in the resident school
district for a minimum of (365) days after the student withdraws from the member school.

cuckoobird

Where do they take these test? At home on their computer?

AirWarren

Quote from: ricepig on March 03, 2017, 11:13:42 am
You're a sufficient enough idiot for me to argue with, lol.

Sadly, you're mistaken with this one. Haha

AirWarren

Lots of good points here. Be interesting to see how this shakes out.

AirWarren

Quote from: cuckoobird on March 03, 2017, 11:53:48 am
Where do they take these test? At home on their computer?

Yes. And at testing centers in larger metro areas.

ricepig

Quote from: AirWarren on March 03, 2017, 12:06:27 pm
Sadly, you're mistaken with this one. Haha

Well, keep putting in the work, you'll get there.

AirWarren

Quote from: ricepig on March 03, 2017, 12:12:21 pm
Well, keep putting in the work, you'll get there.

The work toward being an idiot? No I took a giant step forward by ridding hogville of my life.

cuckoobird

So mom and dad can take their standardized tests. Does no one else smell a rat here?

AirWarren

March 03, 2017, 12:30:32 pm #83 Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:33:11 pm by AirWarren
Quote from: cuckoobird on March 03, 2017, 12:19:40 pm
So mom and dad can take their standardized tests. Does no one else smell a rat here?

Online tests while doing online work is proctored.

The administrator of the test makes you go through a series of clearances through your webcam and as you take the test, they watch you through that. It is also timed and when your time runs out, the test locks.

There are securities when taking standardized test over the computer. When I took my GRE, I was treated like I was a criminal. Patted down. Hat removed. Paper and pencil supplied. Better raise hand to go take a leak.

Same when taking test online when my wife takes her quizzes and tests. The proctoring is strict and non-lenient.

OB11

Quote from: AirWarren on March 03, 2017, 12:30:32 pm
Online tests while doing online work is proctored.

The administrator of the test makes you go through a series of clearances through your webcam and as you take the test, they watch you through that. It is also timed and when your time runs out, the test locks.

There are securities when taking standardized test over the computer. When I took my GRE, I was treated like I was a criminal. Patted down. Hat removed. Paper and pencil supplied. Better raise hand to go take a leak.

Same when taking test online when my wife takes her quizzes and tests. The proctoring is strict and non-lenient.

Yep this is the way a lot of universities set up their online courses now.  You have to show ID and answer questions specific to you in order to verify your identity then someone actually sits and watches you take your text/quiz through your webcam.

Grizzlyfan

If a traditional student is denied the opportunity play sports in the district of their choosing while home school students can go anywhere, it would seem to me the traditional student would have a slam dunk equal protection argument.

AirWarren

Quote from: Grizzlyfan on March 03, 2017, 01:16:01 pm
If a traditional student is denied the opportunity play sports in the district of their choosing while home school students can go anywhere, it would seem to me the traditional student would have a slam dunk equal protection argument.

Oh they will. And they will use that as leverage.

And I would be wrong for saying I would disagree with it too.

AAA just better be ready for all and everything coming their way.

ricepig

Quote from: Grizzlyfan on March 03, 2017, 01:16:01 pm
If a traditional student is denied the opportunity play sports in the district of their choosing while home school students can go anywhere, it would seem to me the traditional student would have a slam dunk equal protection argument.

They both can transfer and set out a year seems logical to me.

Eddie Goodson

Quote from: beach bum on March 03, 2017, 08:51:56 am
Cuck and AW both with good points... Cuck is right there is no oversight and accountability in home schooling if the parents do not truly care. But as AW said it will truly ultimately catch up to them when real life happens. Also, with all this being said I wanted to be sure to say I am not against home schooling, transfering, private schools, or charter schools.... just this law that only benefits a small group. I don't like loopholes like we all don't.
Yes there is oversight. If the kid doesn't pass the year end exams, there are issues. If the kid can't do well on the Act, they don't get into college. There is absolutely accountability, harsh unforgiving accountability. Either the kid learns or doesn't. Life makes kids accountable.

Lumberjackfan1978

Quote from: OB11 on March 03, 2017, 09:09:52 am
I understand what you're saying but let's not demonize public schools. Not every public school classroom is full of behavior and discipline issues.
not every one is but a lot of them are to be fair

WillC

I figure I may as well put my two cents in. It is my personal opinion that home schooled students should not be allowed to play on any team other than their home school group. Period. For the same reason a Northside student cannot play for Southside. If you're not a student of that school, there's no justification for you suiting up for that school. The problem I'm seeing on this thread is that we're treating home school as if it's not school, when that simply is not the case. When a parent withdraws their kid from a public school, their child not only does not attend there anymore, but attends a completely different school. Why should he get to play for School A when he attends School B? I'm not against home school at all, I believe parents should have that option. But like any other decision in life, this one has consequences (positive and negative). One of the negatives could be a loss in extracurricular options. Maybe parents should make that a part of their decision process, just like the decision to send their kids to a private school that may or may not offer athletics. We all know life is full of tough situations. A soccer player from Cedarville can't represent his school in his sport. He asks to play for Van Buren and we laugh him out of the room. Little Johnny's home school group only offers basketball. He asks to play soccer for Van Buren and he can. Why do we tell the public school guy "Tough, transfer and sit out a year" when Little Johnny gets what he wants?

ricepig

Quote from: WillC on March 06, 2017, 01:15:52 am
I figure I may as well put my two cents in. It is my personal opinion that home schooled students should not be allowed to play on any team other than their home school group. Period. For the same reason a Northside student cannot play for Southside. If you're not a student of that school, there's no justification for you suiting up for that school. The problem I'm seeing on this thread is that we're treating home school as if it's not school, when that simply is not the case. When a parent withdraws their kid from a public school, their child not only does not attend there anymore, but attends a completely different school. Why should he get to play for School A when he attends School B? I'm not against home school at all, I believe parents should have that option. But like any other decision in life, this one has consequences (positive and negative). One of the negatives could be a loss in extracurricular options. Maybe parents should make that a part of their decision process, just like the decision to send their kids to a private school that may or may not offer athletics. We all know life is full of tough situations. A soccer player from Cedarville can't represent his school in his sport. He asks to play for Van Buren and we laugh him out of the room. Little Johnny's home school group only offers basketball. He asks to play soccer for Van Buren and he can. Why do we tell the public school guy "Tough, transfer and sit out a year" when Little Johnny gets what he wants?

If the soccer player from Cedarville really wanted to play, he'd transfer and sit out the year, same as the home school child will have to, if he doesn't reside in the district.

cuckoobird

I'm in total agreement. They do not attend the school therefore shouldn't be allowed to play

WillC

March 07, 2017, 02:21:48 am #93 Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 02:35:32 am by WillC
Quote from: ricepig on March 06, 2017, 07:56:15 am
If the soccer player from Cedarville really wanted to play, he'd transfer and sit out the year, same as the home school child will have to, if he doesn't reside in the district.

See, why is preventing a home schooler from playing conditional? It has nothing to do with where he lives and everything to do with which school he attends. Let's flip the script. Let's say this Cedarville soccer player lives in the Van Buren district, but goes to Cedarville because his dad teaches there. He still can't play for Van Buren, even though he lives in that district. A home schooler, however, CAN play, just because of where he lives. The criteria for participation in sports is different for public school and home school students. For public, it's where you go to school. For home schoolers, it's where you live. I just believe the criteria should be the same. Either let public school students play for the district they reside in or make home schoolers play for the school they attend. I think we all know which option is the better one.

ricepig

Quote from: WillC on March 07, 2017, 02:21:48 am
See, why is preventing a home schooler from playing conditional? It has nothing to do with where he lives and everything to do with which school he attends. Let's flip the script. Let's say this Cedarville soccer player lives in the Van Buren district, but goes to Cedarville because his dad teaches there. He still can't play for Van Buren, even though he lives in that district. A home schooler, however, CAN play, just because of where he lives. The criteria for participation in sports is different for public school and home school students. For public, it's where you go to school. For home schoolers, it's where you live. I just believe the criteria should be the same. Either let public school students play for the district they reside in or make home schoolers play for the school they attend. I think we all know which option is the better one.

Again, can the student transfer, sit out a year, and be eligible?

cuckoobird

Quote from: ricepig on March 07, 2017, 09:45:39 am
Again, can the student transfer, sit out a year, and be eligible?
They aren't a student of any district

ricepig

Quote from: cuckoobird on March 07, 2017, 10:37:01 am
They aren't a student of any district

They are a student who lives in a particular district, in the eyes of the AAA, that's all that matters.

Lumberjackfan1978

Quote from: ricepig on March 07, 2017, 11:24:12 am
They are a student who lives in a particular district, in the eyes of the AAA, that's all that matters.
yep the good ole AAA not much count

WillC

Quote from: ricepig on March 07, 2017, 09:45:39 am
Again, can the student transfer, sit out a year, and be eligible?
He can, but if he has to transfer and sit out a year, why shouldn't the home schooler? We're not asking him to transfer, we let him attend one school and play for another. That's my point.

beach bum

March 08, 2017, 07:19:44 am #99 Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 07:37:45 am by beach bum
Ricepig will defend any decisions that the elites make.... Look at this topic and all his topics about Jeff Long and all the board of trustees at the U of A. You are arguing with a dead horse. He has shown over time that he prefers decisions to be made that benefit tiny blocks of people as opposed to our State legislature making decisions that benefit large blocks of people as a whole.

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