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Author Topic: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA  (Read 1121 times)

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Offline beeroe

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Seeing that the sport is growing, particularly in the smaller schools it looks like their will be some kind of effort to address the conferences and so on.

Additionally I am hearing that there is a shortage of referees in the state.

Since it seems that AAA is going to be addressing soccer specifically what are some things you think are important to address?

I will throw a few of my ideas in the hat.

1. Removing penalty kicks tie breakers for in-season conference games. At the end of the 80 minutes teams get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a tie, and 0 points for loosing. The logic of ending it with penalty kicks is like asking the basketball team to finish a game with their best free throw takers, having a best arm contest among quarterbacks or a field goal kicking contest for football teams, or having a home run derby among baseball teams, to settle a tie in regulation... I know its not acceptable to end in a tie in those sports but nearly every country in the world accepts the soccer point system for regular season play. Penalty kicks are only used in rare circumstances.

2. Girls soccer in the fall. Boys in the Spring. This will allow schools to hire one coach to specialize in soccer. And keep our referee pool busy all year and not over too taxed in the spring.

Again what are your ideas?

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 01:56:05 pm »
Not so much my idea as much as a general consensus, but the 5A/6A blended districts should have never been passed in the first place.

There are rumblings that the 5A will petition to AAA for the 5A to be left alone as its own classification level after the blended mess ends in spring 2018, so hopefully AAA listens to reason and separates 5A and 6A then. The proposal is to have 4 conferences with 8 teams (or however many schools in a certain conference field soccer), similar to football, basketball, etc. If the proposal passes, the 5A would look like this (for anyone who isn't familiar with how the football conferences are divided):

Central: Beebe, LR Christian, LR Fair, LR McClellan, LR Mills, LR Parkview, Pulaski Academy, Sylvan Hills
East: Batesville, Blytheville, Forrest City, Greene County Tech, Nettleton, Paragould, Valley View, Wynne
South: Camden Fairview, De Queen, Hope, Hot Springs, Hot Springs Lakeside, Magnolia, Watson Chapel, White Hall
West: Alma, Clarksville, Farmington, Greenbrier, Harrison, Maumelle, Morrilton, Vilonia

*Schools in bold currently field soccer.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 02:08:22 pm by VHSCoach2 »

Offline ClarksvilleFutbol

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2017, 02:51:06 pm »
Change is needed for sure.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2017, 10:28:11 pm »
As much as I like this idea at first thought:

....Girls soccer in the fall. Boys in the Spring. This will allow schools to hire one coach to specialize in soccer. And keep our referee pool busy all year and not over too taxed in the spring.

You talk about a facilities issue nightmare with this - where would you play games? 

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2017, 11:01:46 pm »
I feel like the ref thing is a good idea on paper but hard to implement in the real world. Doubly so if a school has JV teams. I know I in the past have had to spend a lot of "goodwill capital" (or just straight up using vacation time) to make it to schools by 4:30pm for a 5pm kick off. Spreading out the boys and girls games from two months in the spring to two months in the spring and two months in the fall would make that hard. If there is no JV and it is only 1 V game at 7pm, that's more manageable. However, the drawback there is money does play a factor to some referees I know and "give up your evening for one game" isn't particularly ideal for a lot of folks.

And that is on top of the facilities issues that sevenof400 brings up.

Easier way is to recruit more referees  ;D

Offline Rocket23

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2017, 11:42:19 pm »
Plus you have a lot of girls who play soccer and volleyball.  Also trying to get field time to practice or play games would be nearly impossible.

Offline Buck183

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2017, 08:57:08 am »
Seeing that the sport is growing, particularly in the smaller schools it looks like their will be some kind of effort to address the conferences and so on.

Additionally I am hearing that there is a shortage of referees in the state.

Since it seems that AAA is going to be addressing soccer specifically what are some things you think are important to address?

I will throw a few of my ideas in the hat.

1. Removing penalty kicks tie breakers for in-season conference games. At the end of the 80 minutes teams get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a tie, and 0 points for loosing. The logic of ending it with penalty kicks is like asking the basketball team to finish a game with their best free throw takers, having a best arm contest among quarterbacks or a field goal kicking contest for football teams, or having a home run derby among baseball teams, to settle a tie in regulation... I know its not acceptable to end in a tie in those sports but nearly every country in the world accepts the soccer point system for regular season play. Penalty kicks are only used in rare circumstances.

2. Girls soccer in the fall. Boys in the Spring. This will allow schools to hire one coach to specialize in soccer. And keep our referee pool busy all year and not over too taxed in the spring.

Again what are your ideas?

You are spot on with your comments about there being a shortage on officials.  We had a very difficult time last fall in club ball getting our state league games in.  I would guess over half of them were cancelled due to this issue.  Definitely unfortunate. 

As for the PKs, doesn't bother me any.  I just consider it a nuance of the game.  Having said that, I do prefer to play two overtime periods prior to going to PKs.  PKs aren't my favorite way to end a game, but I get it. 

As for splitting the boys and girls into two different seasons, I would agree with the other replies in regards to this.  Would be very tough for multi sport athletes.  I guess I don't understand the need to have a designated coach for each gender.  Our school has never had two head coaches, one for each team, and we don't seem to have an issue being successful at the state level.  I've found this to be advantageous for us. 

Buck

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2017, 09:33:39 am »
Granted, there are still multi-sport athletes in the spring as well... i.e., soccer athletes also participating in track and field, baseball, softball, and basketball (until March).  At that point, it is up to the coaches to meet with the player(s) to work out a schedule that gives the student-athlete the best opportunity to get the most out of however many sports that they are participating in during the given semester.

There really is no "perfect" solution, but, as stated, soccer is growing in the state and hopefully AAA does what's in the best interest for the student-athletes.

Offline pantherdad

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 10:26:56 am »
Arkansas is behind most of our neighboring states by not allowing high school soccer players to play with their club during the high school season. If the AAA would wipe this rule off it's handbook, the players would be best served.

Offline pantherdad

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 10:29:24 am »
Oops, I meant to add; I agree, they need to do away with PK's during regular season play. Totally agree with the basketball free throw analogy!

Offline WillC

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2017, 02:38:17 pm »
I 110% agree with implementing ties instead of KFTM.  We also need a deeper referee pool, as the current number makes missing work almost inevitable.  In my opinion, current players should be encouraged to referee young groups, and eventually the older ones once they get into their twenties.  Start them young and keep them going.

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 04:49:38 pm »
I 110% agree with implementing ties instead of KFTM.  We also need a deeper referee pool, as the current number makes missing work almost inevitable.  In my opinion, current players should be encouraged to referee young groups, and eventually the older ones once they get into their twenties.  Start them young and keep them going.

That's exactly what we are doing in Vilonia.  Half of our girls team referees the younger club kids in town on Saturdays. Not only does it grow the referee pool for our youth program, it helps the girls see the game from another perspective than just a player.

Offline OB11

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 09:24:51 am »
That's exactly what we are doing in Vilonia.  Half of our girls team referees the younger club kids in town on Saturdays. Not only does it grow the referee pool for our youth program, it helps the girls see the game from another perspective than just a player.

Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports.  I think more should be encouraged to do it.  That might help with the pool of referees.

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2017, 10:03:56 am »
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports.  I think more should be encouraged to do it.  That might help with the pool of referees.

During my tenure at Vilonia, I've only seen a handful.  I've seen more for soccer than other sports.  In fact, the only other sport where I can recall seeing a female official during a game featuring Vilonia is basketball.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 10:16:18 am »
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports.  I think more should be encouraged to do it.  That might help with the pool of referees.

Yes there are, though the number is small.  While it takes a certain (and special) skill set to be a referee, doing so as a female adds an extra level of complexity. On the other hand, one would think women telling men what to do would come natural......















...Offical science experiment in action to detect presence of estrogen in sizable quantities....

Offline OB11

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 10:57:34 am »
Yes there are, though the number is small.  While it takes a certain (and special) skill set to be a referee, doing so as a female adds an extra level of complexity. On the other hand, one would think women telling men what to do would come natural......















...Offical science experiment in action to detect presence of estrogen in sizable quantities....

+1  :D :D

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 11:04:08 am »
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports.  I think more should be encouraged to do it.  That might help with the pool of referees.
At the meeting of HS referees in central Arkansas on Tuesday there were seven or eight women.  More this year than in past years.

Offline The Coach

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 11:47:45 am »
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports.  I think more should be encouraged to do it.  That might help with the pool of referees.

Seen 2-3 last Soccer season myself. 1 was the center for our boys match vs Mountain Home at Harrison.  We had 1 at west fork this past season for a jr high football game.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:32:07 pm by The Coach »

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2017, 12:20:08 pm »
There are some pretty good female refs in the state! IIRC there is usually one All Female crew on a state final, and I believe this past year two of the finals were centered by females. Two years ago among all that rain I had a female on my crew for an early round playoff game and she did a great job keeping everything running smooth when I was having a bad day at the office. She got rewarded as one of the top ARs in the region at regionals that summer. Well deserved.

NWA is having our referee meeting on Saturday. I don't think we have quite as many female refs as Central but I will report in all the same. As far as recruiting female referees goes, at least for club where there is an organized referee body it is something that is discussed all the time. It would be great to get numbers up! sevenof400 hits the nail on the head, though, about the added complexity of being a female official. I've seen some coaches (in club, not HS) go after female refs in a way they wouldn't have their male counterparts, and when the State doesn't support the referee it makes it hard.

I am so excited for the season, yall. I'm getting "Memory" notifications on facebook from my playing days and I am sad that now the season doesn't start until the end of February for whatever reason.

Offline beach bum

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 03:10:25 pm »
I have actually considered being a ref for soccer as I have learned the sport well now and still in really good fitness.... Are they struggling finding referees in the high school level in soccer more so than other sports even? Also, I agree women could really get involved to add numbers to ref the sport as well.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 04:55:41 pm »
I have actually considered being a ref for soccer as I have learned the sport well now and still in really good fitness.... Are they struggling finding referees in the high school level in soccer more so than other sports even? Also, I agree women could really get involved to add numbers to ref the sport as well.

Pages in the Directory PDFs:

Basketball: 25
Football: 21
Baseball: 11
Softball: 10
Volleyball: 9
Soccer: 5
Track: 3
Wrestling: 1

So there's a lot of variable factors like "how many schools play the sport" and "how many officials are needed for each sport" and all that, but by raw numbers soccer is 6th out of 8 sports that AOA has a directory for in raw count of registered officials. I feel like the PDF is usually 6 pages, too, but the fifth page is only half full. I could be remembering wrong, and there's still a couple of weeks til games start, but it just seems like a lower number than normal.

There's 191 currently registered soccer officials, broken down by region:
1E: 7
1W: 31
2: 16
3: 18
4: 17
5N: 31
5S: 38
6: 1
7: 16
8: 16
 
There's, what, 108? Schools with soccer. So if everyone were playing, there'd be 54 games, meaning 162 officials needed. Currently 29 over that cap, but that assumes everyone registered is actually going to do games, and of course not everyone is going to play on one night, and blah blah blah.

SHORT VERSION: There's 191 registered referees but most of us will have job/family conflicts pop up, so I think closer to 250 would be needed to be a "healthy" number. There's probably enough referees to "get by", but it would be good for more people to be around to share the workload. Coaches get tired of seeing the same faces all the time, after all ;)

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2017, 11:17:19 am »
There's 191 currently registered soccer officials, broken down by region:
1E: 7
1W: 31
2: 16
3: 18
4: 17
5N: 31
5S: 38
6: 1
7: 16
8: 16

And that number can be misleading at times.  There are generally a few people who sign up with little to no knowledge of the game or at least what's involved in refereeing.  Assignors are willing to work with people who are really interested to get them up to speed, but you really get a mixed bag. To steal someone else's story, a guy signed up to referee HS in my area and the assignor called him up to introduce himself and gauge the new guy's experience. 

Have you ever refereed before?

No, but it doesn't look too hard. 

Do you have any background in soccer? 

No, just watched a couple of games on TV. 

Ok, do you have a uniform? 

No. 

That's Ok, I can lend you a jersey until you can pick up your own. Can you go to XXX school on Thursday to do two ARs? 

It's supposed to rain on Thursday.  I don't work in the rain.

Ok. Thanks anyway. (Never called back)

Definitely an extreme case, but a name on the list doesn't mean you actually have a referee.

Offline Just1Coach

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2017, 02:10:04 pm »
But isn't that story part of the problem itself?  The assignor trying to put a completely unqualified "referee" on 2 different games?  That's a disservice to the game and especially the players!  SMH.    >:(

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2017, 02:20:37 pm »
But isn't that story part of the problem itself?  The assignor trying to put a completely unqualified "referee" on 2 different games?  That's a disservice to the game and especially the players!  SMH.    >:(
Well they were non-conference games at the beginning of the season, and everyone has to start somewhere, but it raises problems I agree.  I was on that referee crew and was very relieved to hear that this guy wasn't going to be there.  The assignor must have found a better candidate because I didn't do any duals that year.

Offline WillC

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2017, 07:40:37 pm »
Well they were non-conference games at the beginning of the season, and everyone has to start somewhere, but it raises problems I agree.  I was on that referee crew and was very relieved to hear that this guy wasn't going to be there.  The assignor must have found a better candidate because I didn't do any duals that year.

Fortunately.  Personally, I hate working duals.  With a burning passion.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2017, 08:30:30 am »
Fortunately.  Personally, I hate working duals.  With a burning passion.
I worked 10 duals last spring, seven with the same partner.  It is definitely inferior to the three man system (diagonal system of control), but it's workable if you know what you're doing.  I was pretty comfortable with it by the end of the season, but I'd prefer to avoid it this year if possible.

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2017, 08:44:41 am »
I worked 10 duals last spring, seven with the same partner.  It is definitely inferior to the three man system (diagonal system of control), but it's workable if you know what you're doing.  I was pretty comfortable with it by the end of the season, but I'd prefer to avoid it this year if possible.

While I can imagine duals as not being favorable for any referee, at least there was at least some form of continuity in 70% of your duals.  Over the last few years, I have seen very few instances of the same referees being grouped together for even two matches, let alone seven.

You guys have a thankless job, and I wish I saw more respect from players, coaches, and ESPECIALLY parents toward the referees statewide.

Offline WillC

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2017, 10:48:53 pm »
Speaking of referee systems, has anyone seen the dreaded double dual (three-whistle) system?  At least Arkansas hasn't adopted that.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2017, 09:18:21 am »
Speaking of referee systems, has anyone seen the dreaded double dual (three-whistle) system?  At least Arkansas hasn't adopted that.
Thankfully not.  I understand they use it in Pennsylvania at least some of the time.

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2017, 09:55:49 am »
Speaking of referee systems, has anyone seen the dreaded double dual (three-whistle) system?  At least Arkansas hasn't adopted that.

Don't give AAA any ideas.

Offline WillC

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2017, 12:29:55 pm »
Thankfully not.  I understand they use it in Pennsylvania at least some of the time.

It's SOP in Florida.  Diagonal System of Control is prohibited in the Sunshine State.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2017, 12:41:58 pm »
It's SOP in Florida.  Diagonal System of Control is prohibited in the Sunshine State.
That's right.  Florida does duals (two whistle) or double duals (three whistle) during the regular season, and all double duals in the playoffs.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2017, 01:20:55 pm »
That's right.  Florida does duals (two whistle) or double duals (three whistle) during the regular season, and all double duals in the playoffs.

That system looks just awful. 

Offline MDXPHD

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2017, 09:54:37 pm »
That system looks just awful.

Agreed. I'm not sure of the rationale behind it. Do they think the game is more controlled with it?

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 12:12:20 pm »
Among the problems (weaknesses) I see with the double dual system is a consistent application of advantage across all three referees. 

Offline WillC

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2017, 05:48:26 pm »
The thing that irks me about the double dual is the responsibility of the assistant. We're told to "assist the referee," but with a whistle, we BECOME a referee.

Offline beeroe

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2017, 12:33:30 pm »
There have been a couple of games where I actually preferred duels.

Ive had seen some Centers that struggle to involve the ARs and struggle to keep up with the pace of the game so they miss calls.

Ive seen players who figure out how to get away with things on the weak corners of the field knowing that the AR cant see and the Center is not keeping up. Often times a Dual system will curtail that.

Generally I am less concerned with out of bounds calls that an AR makes, but attending to off-sides is a critical function and can change the game. So if the Duals miss an out of bounds call no worries... But they cant mess up call for "off sides".




Offline Arbitro

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2017, 01:37:25 pm »
The biggest issue with a multiple whistle system is the harmonization of calls.  When two (or three!) referees are on different pages about what constitutes a foul in today's game, players get understandably frustrated.  And when there is a clear difference in experience/skill between the referees, it is very challenging to have the game called the same on both ends of the field. Also, when possession changes rapidly the referees in a dual are more obligated to stay close to their offside lines, which opens up a hole in the middle of the field where neither ref is close to play.  These limitations can be reduced by good communication between the referees both before and during the game, as well as experience, anticipation, and effort.  If we had to do duals all the time the referees would get better at it, but it is and always will be an inferior system to the DSC (one referee, two ARs).

Offline Buck183

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2017, 10:41:07 pm »
There have been a couple of games where I actually preferred duels.

Ive had seen some Centers that struggle to involve the ARs and struggle to keep up with the pace of the game so they miss calls.

Ive seen players who figure out how to get away with things on the weak corners of the field knowing that the AR cant see and the Center is not keeping up. Often times a Dual system will curtail that.

Generally I am less concerned with out of bounds calls that an AR makes, but attending to off-sides is a critical function and can change the game. So if the Duals miss an out of bounds call no worries... But they cant mess up call for "off sides".

Question out of curiosity.  I've always been told, by every official and coach that I've come across, that the correct term is "offside".  Is this not the case?

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2017, 07:39:55 am »
The correct term is offside.

To be more specific, one can be in an off side position without being in violation of Law 11 (offside).  (That wasn't an attempt to explain the law, just an attempt to use the terms in a grammatically correct manner..)

Offside does not have a plural form in soccer. 

Offline Buck183

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Re: Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2017, 10:22:58 pm »
The correct term is offside.

To be more specific, one can be in an off side position without being in violation of Law 11 (offside).  (That wasn't an attempt to explain the law, just an attempt to use the terms in a grammatically correct manner..)

Offside does not have a plural form in soccer.

Thank you for confirming my thinking. Appreciated. 

 

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