Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

[PA Dad]

Fair enough.

I need to stop wasting time posting this stuff on the message boards and being more proactive. Completely agree.

While we have many disagreements, I've always admired your honesty.

And, I'll be glad to join you in lobbying the AAA or doing any else to resolve the disparities.  I'm pretty much convinced that a performance based classification is best, although there are many details that would have to be worked out.

[PA Dad]

Guessing that it must just be that the football players need more financial assistance than other areas of the school.   Makes sense to me.  I say, it doesn't really matte as long as AAA allows it.  As far as Kelly leaving or staying, don't fret, he will not be going anywhere.  He has had some very good opportunities but is smart and knows where his success year in and year out is.

I think you are right about Kelley.  I get a little tickled with the posters who question why he has not moved on or up.  Maybe he's like a pig in slop where he is.  Why move on when you're happy where you are?

[PA Dad]

I think I agree, which is why I am going to push for the ability to get kids from Forrest City, Earle, McCrory, Cross County and any other students that might want to come to Wynne!  If they are great athletes, even better.  Maybe we could even rise money for them to offset travel costs or any cost associated with attending a school not in the district they live.  I'm hoping the AAA will be ok with that.

I love the sarcasm.  +1

[86jacketstchamps]

I love the sarcasm.  +1

I thought you would like that.  LOL

[MDXPHD]

While we have many disagreements, I've always admired your honesty.

And, I'll be glad to join you in lobbying the AAA or doing any else to resolve the disparities.  I'm pretty much convinced that a performance based classification is best, although there are many details that would have to be worked out.

Same goes for you. We disagree on many issues within this topic, but they are always good arguments. You fight and stand up for what you believe and what you should defend, which is great.

I think success advancement would be the quickest and easiest to impliment, and I think a lot of these complaints would fade quickly with that. I am going to gather information on the other states to see what their qualifications are to move a school up. I'll post that data as soon as I can. But like I said a few posts ago, I'll be a ghost until after the holidays. I hope you and your family have a merry Christmas.

[PA Dad]

I've written several different responses to all that has been addressed so far, only to delete them all. I understand that PA fans can't see the problem. I will accept that. The elitist personality of PA fans is overwhelming to me. Even when I post numbers showing how disproportionate the financial aid is, we can somehow turn that around to how deserving PA is of praise for giving these kids a chance to excel. You don't have better athletes than other schools, but your small, 3A school has produced 30+ d-1 players in 13 years.

After seeing these numbers, if you really want an applause and to have the Gazette pick up a story about how great y'all are for giving kids an opportunity (although you deny kids regularly of opportunities, you know, if they aren't smart enough or something to get in your school), then so be it.

I'm done for the holidays, but I did want to share these numbers with all of you. Regardless of what the PA posters say, they are alarming. PA supporters can continue to be in denial, but it doesn't change how important this topic is. It will be pressed and pressed each year, and something will eventually change.

I will be back after the first of the year with the other school's numbers. I'm interested in seeing how the privates compare regarding scholarships. Hopefully, they will be as generous so we can praise them too.

MDX, I suppose one of the reasons I sometimes take your posts personally is that you call PA fans, which includes me, elitists.

You know who I am.  You can look at my record.  I've always represented the underprivileged, the underdog, and the have nots.  Do you really think I'm elitist?

[PA Dad]

Same goes for you. We disagree on many issues within this topic, but they are always good arguments. You fight and stand up for what you believe and what you should defend, which is great.

I think success advancement would be the quickest and easiest to impliment, and I think a lot of these complaints would fade quickly with that. I am going to gather information on the other states to see what their qualifications are to move a school up. I'll post that data as soon as I can. But like I said a few posts ago, I'll be a ghost until after the holidays. I hope you and your family have a merry Christmas.

And I wish the same for you and your family.  Merry Christmas.

[MDXPHD]

I do not. But I do consider several others I've met/had conversations with elitists. Not you though. I should have put a disclaimer in there.

I do not think PA dad is an elitist. I don't Group him with the general statements I have made about PA.

[PA Dad]

I do not. But I do consider several others I've met/had conversations with elitists. Not you though. I should have put a disclaimer in there.

I do not think PA dad is an elitist. I don't Group him with the general statements I have made about PA.

Thanks.  I appreciate that.

[Yellowcake]

I love high school football, and have had a lot of fun watching it over the years. Lots of teams, lots of classifications. It's been more fun just enjoying the sport, including PA football, without defending PA all the time. So, with all due respect, I am going to bow out. This board is kind of taking the fun out of it for me.

Glad I got to meet AirWarren, though.

Good luck to everyone next season, and have a very Merry Christmas.

[AT]

Can we actually talk about the athletes this year that PA and Wynne had. Does anyone think that PA just had THAT many more athletes than their competition? I mean Hatcher is a great QB and Watkins was a stud, but the routes that the receivers run for PA are second to none in Arkansas. Incredible efficiency. Love watching their offense work.  That's coaching.

I mean Hicks was probably the best athlete on the field that night.

[PA Dad]

I love high school football, and have had a lot of fun watching it over the years. Lots of teams, lots of classifications. It's been more fun just enjoying the sport, including PA football, without defending PA all the time. So, with all due respect, I am going to bow out. This board is kind of taking the fun out of it for me.

Glad I got to meet AirWarren, though.

Good luck to everyone next season, and have a very Merry Christmas.

Yellowcake, I've been tempted several times to quit this board.  And I may eventually decide to do so.  But, don't let the naysayers run you off.  You can be blunt, but that's not always a bad thing.  And you bring a unique perspective to the board.

I still watch PA games because my wife and I have friends whose kids still play.  That will continue for a couple of more years.  And, I just love high school football. 

As long as I'm on this board, I want as many points of view as possible.  Please don't quit just because of the criticism of PA.  That will always be present.  Just ask the old timers like Maynard.

And regardless of what others say, I'm proud of the PA posters.  For the most part they are humble but proud of PA.  There's certainly nothing wrong with that.

[PA Dad]

Can we actually talk about the athletes this year that PA and Wynne had. Does anyone think that PA just had THAT many more athletes than their competition? I mean Hatcher is a great QB and Watkins was a stud, but the routes that the receivers run for PA are second to none in Arkansas. Incredible efficiency. Love watching their offense work.  That's coaching.

I mean Hicks was probably the best athlete on the field that night.

Hicks was, without a doubt, the best athlete in the game.  Great power, good speed, and good vision.  He had over 200 yards against a really good defense.  I held my breath every time he got the ball.

Hatcher may be a D-1 athlete, but it may be in wrestling.  I'll be surprised if he gets a D-1 football offer.

Watkins is just a joy to watch.  I loved FD4's description of him - it's like trying to catch the last chicken in the open range.  But, he won't get a D-1 offer.

I thought Wynne's offensive line was a little better than PA's.  They were certainly bigger and more athletic.

I give the edge to PA's defensive line.  They executed their assignments with discipline and contained an explosive Wynne running game, although Wynne helped with the turnovers.

The  big difference in the game was the Wynne secondary.  They just couldn't defend the PA receivers.  I was really surprised they played man to man.  I thought the Wynne defense would take the approach Batesville took, which was to pressure the PA quarterback.

But, it's easy to second guess the coaches.  I'm glad I didn't have to make those calls.

[Grond]

I am having a hard time accepting the importance and validity of Gronds post when it doesn't include out of state players.  I know it is difficult to get this info, but it is very important in order to prove the point.  Wish we could get that!

You are correct. I would love to see a list of D1-FBS football players from the state of Arkansas, each year. This was a complaint of my original thread.

There are lists of "Top Arkansas Prospects", but I found these lists tend to not follow where players ACTUALLY signed.

Another complexity to all this is the fact that colleges tend to recruit from winning teams. PA has a combination of success and notoriety the draws the attention of college scouts.

Be aware that there is another phenomena occurring with PA college football recruits: success in Kelly's system is not a guarantee of success at college level. Going to be very curious how many colleges take a serious look at PA football.

[PA Dad]

You are correct. I would love to see a list of D1-FBS football players from the state of Arkansas, each year. This was a complaint of my original thread.

There are lists of "Top Arkansas Prospects", but I found these lists tend to not follow where players ACTUALLY signed.

Another complexity to all this is the fact that colleges tend to recruit from winning teams. PA has a combination of success and notoriety the draws the attention of college scouts.

Be aware that there is another phenomena occurring with PA college football recruits: success in Kelly's system is not a guarantee of success at college level. Going to be very curious how many colleges take a serious look at PA football.

You are correct.  The only PA graduates that I can recall that had success in college are Hunter  Henry, Fridi Knighten, and Jason King.  And Hunter is the only one I know playing in the pros.

[Maynard G Krebs]

You are correct.  The only PA graduates that I can recall that had success in college are Hunter  Henry, Fridi Knighten, and Jason King.  And Hunter is the only one I know playing in the pros.

Don't forget Spencer Keith, four year starter QB at Kent State.   Jonathan Luigs, Rimington Award winner at Arkansas.

[sevenof400]

All,

I know we have somewhat wandered around, over and through several different aspects of this subject, but because we've somewhat touched on this aspect already I wanted to post this here as well.  This was originally found and posted by Beeroe in another forum but this does provide a look at how another state (Indiana) handles this issue:

A system like this could mean any one school would be in a number of different classifications and conferences but the upside is the school would be in a situation where each team was playing at (or near) their talent level. 

Food for thought. 


In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport
basis dependent on the School's previous tournament series success.
a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series
they achieve as follows:
(1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point
(2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points
(3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points
(4.) State Championship - Four (4) points
b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in
Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or
greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment
classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle.
c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Three (3) points or below in a specific sport
shall be placed in the classification dictated by their enrollment for the next reclassification
and realignment cycle.
d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport
shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two(2) years.
e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall
Rule 2 - Classification of Schools
19
move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification
and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class
in that sport.

[PA Dad]

I like it.  It seems fair and fairly easy to administer.

I like the two year reclassifications.  That would be much less volatile than a yearly reclassification.

I think there would be a great many reclassifications in the first 4-6 years.  But, after that, I think things would stabilize and teams would be fairly evenly grouped.

Now how do we get this implemented?

[Intelligentsia]

Very interesting!!  This would also help in so many schools with a dominant sport which leaves other sports, bereft of better athletes, less than competitive.

[Grond]

All,

I know we have somewhat wandered around, over and through several different aspects of this subject, but because we've somewhat touched on this aspect already I wanted to post this here as well.  This was originally found and posted by Beeroe in another forum but this does provide a look at how another state (Indiana) handles this issue:

A system like this could mean any one school would be in a number of different classifications and conferences but the upside is the school would be in a situation where each team was playing at (or near) their talent level. 

Food for thought. 


In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport
basis dependent on the School's previous tournament series success.
a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series
they achieve as follows:
(1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point
(2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points
(3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points
(4.) State Championship - Four (4) points
b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in
Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or
greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment
classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle.
c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Three (3) points or below in a specific sport
shall be placed in the classification dictated by their enrollment for the next reclassification
and realignment cycle.
d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport
shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two(2) years.
e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall
Rule 2 - Classification of Schools
19
move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification
and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class
in that sport.

I like a lot of this. I would tend to favor 8 to 10 points over 3 years, but I am being picky. 

[HowNowBrownCow]

Here is a quick post to summarize since these numbers are spread out:

This is for Pulaski Academy - 2016 Fall sports. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.

Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.

A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average (based on the 20 who received it, of course).

79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid. (20.15% students participating in athletics receive financial aid, 20.52% total students receiving financial aid)

PA has 0 students enrolled in an ESL program, 0 students enrolled in special education, and 0 students receiving free/reduced lunches.

PA has had 30+ Division 1 football players since 2003. This is a football team with 60ish kids on it each year. They average 2-3 D-1 football players per year, and roughly 6-9 per team (grades 10-12). This includes walk-ons...but D-1 athletes nonetheless.

So, we have 33 percent of football players receiving roughly 150k (7400/player) in financial aid this year, while we only have 20 percent of the school receiving it.

These numbers are from the Financial Aid for Non-Public School athletes, Financial Aid Form Supplemental List, and the Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report forms. These are the forms all private schools are required to turn in to AAA. These numbers are from copies of the forms turned in by PA, to AAA. AAA is a government entity, so they are subject to FOI requests.

There's the socioeconomic factors I mentioned earlier. These numbers really shocked me.... I did not expect the number of football players receiving financial aid to be that high. I really expected them to have some kind of special education program. Oh Wait!!!...... They do....... It's football.... It's pretty special there

[HowNowBrownCow]

How long till the media picks this up and does a story on it?? Some of you are only fueling the fire!!! I said this was gonna get bad and it seems to be gaining ground.

I can see it now...

Class 5A Bulletin Board Material
Class 4A Bulletin Board Material
Class 3A Bulletin Board Material
Class 2A Bulletin Board Material
Private School League Bulletin Board Material

PA Dad will get asked to be the moderator for it!! 

[blueandwhite]

It would be interesting if we knew which football players got financial aid and compare it to the football stats from last year.

I bet that the stat leaders also receive the majority of the financial aid. But PA does not recruit

[Red Devil Alum]

It would be interesting if we knew which football players got financial aid and compare it to the football stats from last year.

I bet that the stat leaders also receive the majority of the financial aid. But PA does not recruit

I don't know of a player that contributed that hasn't been there for 6+ years. The state championship MVP started at age 3. Players don't show ability at another school and are then recruited. So define recruiting however you wish, but finding players that are 12 or under would not be an efficient way to cheat

[blueandwhite]

6 years ago, this year's seniors would been 7th graders. It makes complete sense to get a good athlete in by the start of their 7th grade year, that way a school does not have to deal with transfer rules.

And if you don't think high school coaches (public or private) are not looking at the 5th and 6th graders that are coming up, you live in a fantasy world.

[Oldbadger]

A good coach knows what he has coming up from the 7th grade up.  He has these kids running his offensive and defensive schemes so that it is second nature to them. So, if a kid wants to move in and play football, and is good, why not.  Is he asked to do so, who knows? But a lot of kids who have the opportunity to play for a successful program will seek out one and move in to join it.  That, in my opinion, is what happens to PA and the other schools. By the way, I have seen it at Public schools too.

[Grond]

A good coach knows what he has coming up from the 7th grade up.  He has these kids running his offensive and defensive schemes so that it is second nature to them. So, if a kid wants to move in and play football, and is good, why not.  Is he asked to do so, who knows? But a lot of kids who have the opportunity to play for a successful program will seek out one and move in to join it.  That, in my opinion, is what happens to PA and the other schools. By the way, I have seen it at Public schools too.

In northeast Arkansas, we have a name for this time when kids change/move to schools that are better athletically. We call it "summer."

Sadly, saw a kid in junior high basketball that was moved so much, I am not sure he spent more than a semester at any school.

[STBruin]

School of choice in Central Arkansas is the same way...kids can go wherever they want and change every year of they want to....

[MDXPHD]

School of choice in Central Arkansas is the same way...kids can go wherever they want and change every year of they want to....

You misunderstand the rule regarding athletics I think.

[STBruin]

I don't think anyone is policing it...how else can a player go from LR Parkview to Robinson...or another one that started at Benton, then goes to LR Central, and now is at Bryant. They should have blanket rule...move to a school 30 miles or less...you are ineligible

[Chief_Osceola™]

A couple of years ago D. Johnson was Conway's leading receiver in football and one of Maumelle's leading scorers in basketball. I *think* it was a bonafide move but I'm not 100% sure.

[Sick Dog]

It is out of control. It is a joke. there is no comparison. Private schools have all the advantages over public schools. Period. They can make up a bunch of bull crap and sad stories to make everyone feel sorry for them but thats what they do. I would really like to see that vote that took place several years back about them having their own classification. I bet no one in a public school would vote for it now. get it back on a ballot and lets see. Can someone do that? Let them recruit all they want to then. They will have to pay that tuition for everyone they do. Call their bluff on it.

[Red Devil Alum]

It is out of control. It is a joke. there is no comparison. Private schools have all the advantages over public schools. Period. They can make up a bunch of bull crap and sad stories to make everyone feel sorry for them but thats what they do. I would really like to see that vote that took place several years back about them having their own classification. I bet no one in a public school would vote for it now. get it back on a ballot and lets see. Can someone do that? Let them recruit all they want to then. They will have to pay that tuition for everyone they do. Call their bluff on it.

Why don't you get it done then?

[Grond]

You misunderstand the rule regarding athletics I think.

A few years ago, saw a player change from his dad's residence to his mom's residence. In two different jerseys in two weeks.

Saw a high end basketball player play for three teams in three years in high school: Nettleton - Jonesboro - Senath [MO]. You can get some really good deals on apartments, depending on who you know.....  

Lots of movement in Basketball, Softball, ......... and even Band. Parents will figure a way to get their kids where they want.

[STBruin]

I have heard of a kid that played for 3 different schools in consecutive years...ALL IN SALINE COUNTY

[nuttinbuthogs]

And what is your point?  Should PA refuse financial assistance to deserving students because they are athletes?

I think PA should be applauded for giving families without the financial resources for their kids to attend PA an opportunity.  I'm really puzzled by the criticism.

Is the reason for the financial aid, helping the needy families get a better opportunity, or, is it to get more athletes?  If its about athletes its cheating.

[STBruin]

A few years ago, saw a player change from his dad's residence to his mom's residence. In two different jerseys in two weeks.

Saw a high end basketball player play for three teams in three years in high school: Nettleton - Jonesboro - Senath [MO]. You can get some really good deals on apartments, depending on who you know.....  

Lots of movement in Basketball, Softball, ......... and even Band. Parents will figure a way to get their kids where they want.

what do you want to bet....the QB from Watson Chapel...that quit/got kicked off the team for cussing a coach...is wearing a Pine Bluff baseball uniform this spring...and a PB football jersey this upcoming fall?

[Iknewthemwhen]

Not that hard to move schools, if you just get an address.  I doubt the AAA wants to police this too hard.  It's the schools that are hungry for new athletes that allow most of this to go on.   Didn't the kid at Chapel already return to Chapel? 

[STBruin]

Not that hard to move schools, if you just get an address.  I doubt the AAA wants to police this too hard.  It's the schools that are hungry for new athletes that allow most of this to go on.   Didn't the kid at Chapel already return to Chapel?

I think it is a little more widespread than that. Think it is a problem in Central Arkansas, and would imagine it is a problem in any of the cities with more than a couple schools. Kids/parents can go where ever they want. Don't know about the kid from Chapel, last I heard he was enrolled at PB.

[Grond]

Despite all the accusations in this thread against Pulaski Academy, I find myself wondering if the fact that PA is a private school actually makes it HARDER to transfer in (for reasons of athletics).

I say this due to the costs of attending PA, and the rules regarding private school sports (meaning that someone that transfers into PA will get much more scrutiny than someone transferring to another central Arkansas school).

Question for MDXPHD: Did you obtain any information/list of students that transferred to PA from 7th to 12th grade?

[Iknewthemwhen]

Please don't say prvate schools are at a disadvantage.

[gameoflife]

The fact that private schools get to fill their school with athletes that choose to attend for the purpose of athletics is a clear advantage.  Most of the numbers I have seen, particularly at the more successful private schools show that an unusually high percentage of the student body is involved in athletics.

[MDXPHD]

http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/local-news/state-takeover-sought-of-ar-activities-assn/635502141

Saw this on the 4A board. I feel like it's relevant to this too.

[MDXPHD]

CAC FALL SPORTS:

CAC offers financial assistance for 20/176 (11 percent) of their student athletes (7-12 grade).

5/47 (11 percent) football players receive financial assistance.

56/391 of their total student body (7-12) receive financial assistance. This is about 14 percent.

Obviously, people can compare the numbers between PA and CAC. While PA is giving a scholarship to 1/3 of their football team, CAC is giving assistance to a little more than 1/10. Interesting.

[Chief_Osceola™]

http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/local-news/state-takeover-sought-of-ar-activities-assn/635502141

Saw this on the 4A board. I feel like it's relevant to this too.

I don't like government takeover of ANYTHING, and I agree with Coach Withrow's thoughts.  On the other hand, I do like the idea of more transparency.  Just do it without a government takeover.

[Chief_Osceola™]

CAC FALL SPORTS:

CAC offers financial assistance for 20/176 (11 percent) of their student athletes (7-12 grade).

5/47 (11 percent) football players receive financial assistance.

56/391 of their total student body (7-12) receive financial assistance. This is about 14 percent.

Obviously, people can compare the numbers between PA and CAC. While PA is giving a scholarship to 1/3 of their football team, CAC is giving assistance to a little more than 1/10. Interesting.

I think the cost of attendance also has to be considered.  The last time I looked, CAC isn't as expensive as PA or LRC, but that's been over 5 years ago so the numbers could be different now.  I imagine though that has something to do with the difference in ratios.  Also, a lot of kids from Maumelle go to CAC, which has a higher per capita income than anywhere in the state, so that also has to be considered.  It certainly makes for an interesting debate.

[AirWarren]

I think the cost of attendance also has to be considered.  The last time I looked, CAC isn't as expensive as PA or LRC, but that's been over 5 years ago so the numbers could be different now.  I imagine though that has something to do with the difference in ratios.  Also, a lot of kids from Maumelle go to CAC, which has a higher per capita income than anywhere in the state, so that also has to be considered.  It certainly makes for an interesting debate.

I looked Into CAC. It is a lot "cheaper" than the other metro private schools.

[MDXPHD]

.

[MDXPHD]

I figured this would be the amount of responses after I posted the numbers revealing how lopsided the financial aid is regarding these two football teams. No surprise.

[STBruin]

If CAC is ALOT CHEAPER to attend...wouldn't it stand that there wouldn't be as many kids on financial aid? Run any numbers at LRCA?