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Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

Started by MDXPHD, December 17, 2015, 03:12:54 pm

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PA Dad

Quote from: Chief_Osceolaâ„¢ on December 13, 2016, 06:23:04 pm
He needs to change his handle to JON_SNOW, because he knows nothing.

Amen. Some posters are just embarrassing.

MDXPHD

These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.

Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.

I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...

And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.

I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.

Yellowcake

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:10:25 am
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.

Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.

I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...

And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.

I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.

I am lost. Are you saying these are PA numbers? Because if you are, then I'd like to see your proof. My daughter plays golf. I can't wait to see where you got these numbers.

By the way, I am sorry we have arguably the best coach in the state in football. I am sorry Batesville doesn't get to win state championships every year. I am sorry the Morrilton, Wynne, Alma, LRCA and other 5 A fans, including the other good people from Batesville on here, would rather beat them than kick them out of the league. You are obsessed.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 09:32:35 am
I am lost. Are you saying these are PA numbers? Because if you are, then I'd like to see your proof. My daughter plays golf. I can't wait to see where you got these numbers.

By the way, I am sorry we have arguably the best coach in the state in football. I am sorry Batesville doesn't get to win state championships every year. I am sorry the Morrilton, Wynne, Alma, LRCA and other 5 A fans, including the other good people from Batesville on here, would rather beat them than kick them out of the league. You are obsessed.

Yes, I am saying these are PA numbers.

Apologies accepted.

Yellowcake

By the way, please give us the numbers of non sports playing students who get financial aid, since you seem to be reviewing verifiable tuition data that you are going to offer as proof. I mean I hope you are going to offer as proof, given your history of unverifiable and false accusations regarding a school you hate. Proof, please.

sevenof400

From afar, I'll offer these observations (all of these from the perspective and assumption that the numbers are accurate - no offense intended or implied MDXPHD):

  • Based on looking at these numbers from fall sports alone, it would seem to be the case that football recipients are over represented.  However, if approximately one third of the entire student body receives financial aid, then the football financial aid numbers would be more in line with the school as a whole.
  • Is it possible some athletes are counted twice in these numbers?  I'm thinking that some athletes can (and do) play more than one sport at the same time though it is rare for football players to play other sports during football season.  (This is more common in the spring sports.)
  • I don't believe that shocked is the word I would have chosen to describe my reaction, but it does (potentially) add objective data to the discussion.  As an aside, I wonder if Pulaski Academy is representative of other privates schools - meaning do other private schools award as much financial aid.

Yellowcake

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:38:08 am
Yes, I am saying these are PA numbers.

Apologies accepted.

Until you prove it, I am contesting the validity of the numbers.

Show us your proof, Gilligan.

sevenof400

As a reminder to all - please keep the discussion civil and on point.

For the overwhelming amount of this thread, we've had some very good discussion and it is a credit to all who have participated that we've addressed this issue in such a way that the discussion has been allowed to continue.

Thanks. 

MDXPHD

Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 09:38:33 am
From afar, I'll offer these observations (all of these from the perspective and assumption that the numbers are accurate - no offense intended or implied MDXPHD):

  • Based on looking at these numbers from fall sports alone, it would seem to be the case that football recipients are over represented.  However, if approximately one third of the entire student body receives financial aid, then the football financial aid numbers would be more in line with the school as a whole.
  • Is it possible some athletes are counted twice in these numbers?  I'm thinking that some athletes can (and do) play more than one sport at the same time though it is rare for football players to play other sports during football season.  (This is more common in the spring sports.)
  • I don't believe that shocked is the word I would have chosen to describe my reaction, but it does (potentially) add objective data to the discussion.  As an aside, I wonder if Pulaski Academy is representative of other privates schools - meaning do other private schools award as much financial aid.

About 20 percent of PA students (and 20 percent of athletes also) receive financial aid 7-12 grade. So yeah, football is a little out of line.

It is possible..but each student has a unique ID number. I haven't gone through it in enough detail to look at those..but you're right, most football players won't be playing another Fall sport.

I'm not sure about other schools. I am requesting some of the other schools information this next week. LRCA and CAC most likely.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 09:39:48 am
Until you prove it, I am contesting the validity of the numbers.

Show us your proof, Gilligan.

I just got them from the Financial Aid for Non-Public School athletes, Financial Aid Form Supplemental List, and the Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report forms. These are the forms all private schools are required to turn in to AAA. They come from the school, so hopefully they are accurate.

Intelligentsia

Great discussion (other than Yellowcake's sophomoric name calling and comments).  I'm still not sure if this should justify removing private schools from participation in AAA activities, but it certainly may warent classification adjustments and possibly participation restrictions for "scholarship" participants.  Good research, MX....

MDXPHD

Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 09:38:33 am
From afar, I'll offer these observations (all of these from the perspective and assumption that the numbers are accurate - no offense intended or implied MDXPHD):

  • Based on looking at these numbers from fall sports alone, it would seem to be the case that football recipients are over represented.  However, if approximately one third of the entire student body receives financial aid, then the football financial aid numbers would be more in line with the school as a whole.
  • Is it possible some athletes are counted twice in these numbers?  I'm thinking that some athletes can (and do) play more than one sport at the same time though it is rare for football players to play other sports during football season.  (This is more common in the spring sports.)
  • I don't believe that shocked is the word I would have chosen to describe my reaction, but it does (potentially) add objective data to the discussion.  As an aside, I wonder if Pulaski Academy is representative of other privates schools - meaning do other private schools award as much financial aid.

Looking a little closer at the numbers, none of the football players who receive financial aid play other fall sports.

MDXPHD

A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average.

Yellowcake


Chief_Osceolaâ„¢

Quick question - does the financial aid come in the form of a student loan, or something like a grant?

Grond

My greatest concern in this thread is that MDXPHD continues to present information like a LAWYER, not like a scientist or engineer.

He is trying to prove an assumption; he is not trying to make an objective evaluation. For example: "33% of football players get financial aid" and "about 20% of PA students get financial aid". Is "about 20%" mean 20.3%? 19%? 24%? And how come you did not originally present this information (about total student aid)?

MDXPHD may be presenting seriously relevant information about PA sports; consequently, it is extremely important that it be presented in an objective manner.

Despite all these numbers,..............Wynne still fumbled 4 times in the first half.

By the way.............be aware that there are a whole host of rumors about Batesville's success in the 5A East. PA is not the only high school where people question their continued success in football.

sevenof400

December 17, 2016, 01:37:47 pm #716 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:44:13 pm by sevenof400
If I recall correctly, I believe MDXPHD had to request this info from some entity (not sure if this was AAA or perhaps the State Education department) - but whatever it was (and again assuming the information is accurate and valid) it does provide definition on some of the differences between public and private schools. 

Edit: from his post on December 12, MDXPHD noted he was requesting info from AAA.

The numbers offered by MDXPHD are indeed objective (again, assuming they are accurate and valid).  I do agree the actual numbers of financial aid recipients in the student body would be better data.

From even before this thread was started, I have had an interest in looking at what I believe is a fundamentally flawed method of determining school classifications.  The use of student head count as the only measurement to rank and determine a school's classification is inadequate (to say the least) and the continuing saga over the 6A and 7A issues offers substantial proof of that problem by itself.

Closer to my own experiences, I've been to a good number of 5A schools around the state over the years and there is no way to support the concept that claims the 5A school are fairly matched by using student head count.  There has to be a better way.  As complex as solving that problem would be on its own (trying to determine an accurate and valid measure on which to determine student classifications), the added elements introduced by private schools makes this consideration even harder (as if it needed to be....).

Just to be clear, I am not placing the blame for this on Pulaski Academy or any other private school - I want to find a better way to rank and classify schools in this state so that the largest number of schools can compete on an as level basis as possible. 

MDXPHD

December 17, 2016, 01:40:28 pm #717 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:46:07 pm by MDXPHD
Quote from: Chief_Osceolaâ„¢ on December 17, 2016, 12:37:58 pm
Quick question - does the financial aid come in the form of a student loan, or something like a grant?

I just know it says "amount of aid to be awarded by school."

Quote from: Grond on December 17, 2016, 12:50:13 pm
My greatest concern in this thread is that MDXPHD continues to present information like a LAWYER, not like a scientist or engineer.

He is trying to prove an assumption; he is not trying to make an objective evaluation. For example: "33% of football players get financial aid" and "about 20% of PA students get financial aid". Is "about 20%" mean 20.3%? 19%? 24%? And how come you did not originally present this information (about total student aid)?

MDXPHD may be presenting seriously relevant information about PA sports; consequently, it is extremely important that it be presented in an objective manner.

Despite all these numbers,..............Wynne still fumbled 4 times in the first half.

By the way.............be aware that there are a whole host of rumors about Batesville's success in the 5A East. PA is not the only high school where people question their continued success in football.

Grond, I did say "about 33 percent" in my first set of data. Additionally, I put the actual numbers. I said 20/61.

And here, I'll be more precise with the "about 20" percentage. 79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid.

I posted a quick set of numbers that I could easily calculate by looking at the forms. When somebody asked about the total student aid, I was quick to inform them. Tell me what "assumption" I am trying to prove by providing these numbers? And if looking at numbers provided by PA isn't an objective evaluation, I don't know how else to do it.

We have to stop being so narrow minded and considering this a PA and football problem, when in reality it involves all sports and all private/public schools. I'm hoping the information I get from other privates will indeed confirm this.

MDXPHD

December 17, 2016, 01:42:59 pm #718 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 01:47:19 pm by MDXPHD
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 01:37:47 pm
If I recall correctly, I believe MDXPHD had to request this info from some entity (not sure if this was AAA or perhaps the State Education department) - but whatever it was (and again assuming the information is accurate and valid) it does provide definition on some of the differences between public and private schools. 

The numbers offered by MDXPHD are indeed objective (again, assuming they are accurate and valid). 

From even before this thread was started, I have had an interest in looking at what I believe is a fundamentally flawed method of determining school classifications.  The use of student head count as the only measurement to rank and determine a school's classification is inadequate (to say the least) and the continuing saga over the 6A and 7A issues offers substantial proof of that problem by itself.

Closer to my own experiences, I've been to a good number of 5A schools around the state over the years and there is no way to support the concept that claims the 5A school are fairly matched by using student head count.  There has to be a better way.  As complex as solving that problem would be on its own (trying to determine an accurate and valid measure on which to determine student classifications), the added elements introduced by private schools makes this consideration even harder (as if it needed to be....).

Just to be clear, I am not placing the blame for this on Pulaski Academy or any other private school - I want to find a better way to rank and classify schools in this state so that the largest number of schools can compete on an as level basis as possible.

There certainly must be a better way to classify the schools. I think you have to look at many more factors than just a head count. A success advancement system wouldn't be perfect, but even something as simple as that would help with the problem I think.

I would also like to add to the discussion in an earlier portion of this thread. PA has 0 students enrolled in an ESL program, 0 students enrolled in special education, and 0 students receiving free/reduced lunches.

MDXPHD


sevenof400

Not that we all couldn't do the math, but just to save everyone the effort:

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 01:40:28 pm
And here, I'll be more precise with the "about 20" percentage. 79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid.

20.15% students participating in athletics receive financial aid
20.52% total students receiving financial aid


JessieP

If these numbers are correct that would be a major blow to PA's reputation. This puts them at a major advantage over any other 5A school. Wynne, who I thought would have won the title, and Batesville before them are handcuffed by boundaries. The fact that the football team is loaded with kids receiving financial aid is disappointing. I am eating a little crow myself, I was sure this would be proven false. How can you honestly say it's all coaching or hard work when it is starting to appear like it's an all-star team.  This is not whining, complaining or nit picking. It is proof of a terribly unbalanced playing field. I am not flip flopping on what I have been saying previously, these are numbers I can't believe are true. How can the AAA allow this to go on? If these numbers are fact then we need to admit what no Pioneer fan wants to admit, the Wynne Yellow jackets were the best high school football TEAM in 2016, man that hurt to say. 

MDXPHD

December 17, 2016, 02:31:27 pm #722 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 02:34:31 pm by MDXPHD
Here is a quick post to summarize since these numbers are spread out:

This is for Pulaski Academy - 2016 Fall sports. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.

Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.

A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average (based on the 20 who received it, of course).

79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid. (20.15% students participating in athletics receive financial aid, 20.52% total students receiving financial aid)

PA has 0 students enrolled in an ESL program, 0 students enrolled in special education, and 0 students receiving free/reduced lunches.

PA has had 30+ Division 1 football players since 2003. This is a football team with 60ish kids on it each year. They average 2-3 D-1 football players per year, and roughly 6-9 per team (grades 10-12). This includes walk-ons...but D-1 athletes nonetheless.

So, we have 33 percent of football players receiving roughly 150k (7400/player) in financial aid this year, while we only have 20 percent of the school receiving it.

These numbers are from the Financial Aid for Non-Public School athletes, Financial Aid Form Supplemental List, and the Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report forms. These are the forms all private schools are required to turn in to AAA. These numbers are from copies of the forms turned in by PA, to AAA. AAA is a government entity, so they are subject to FOI requests.

walkingguy72396

Correct me if I am wrong.  I am sure that will not be an issue on this board either way.
Public schools get a certain amount from the state based on enrollment.  So when a student attends a non-public school the public school gets less funding.  When that non-public school Student also is a D-1 potential athlete and could possibly get boost home game total attendence by 200

So lets say 5 home games at 4 dollars = 4000 bucks.


MDXPHD

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 07:04:45 pm

Regarding financial aid, every player is required to pay at least 50%, which is about $6,000 per year. More non-athletes receive financial aid by percentage than do athletes.  That is a fact.

Well, the first part just isn't true. The second part is true, by .4ish percent...Except with the football percentage.

Yellowcake

MPX, why do you think the system is broken? Is it because PA is on a run and Shiloh once had a run? I promise you, when Kelly leaves, things will change. Pine Bluff, Greenwood, Barton and a host of other public schools have had great runs in a variety of sports. I guess I just don't understand why you are so upset about private schools particating in sports with everyone else? Are the kids upset, or do they want to beat the private schools?

Your numbers show that the same percentage of non-athletes get aid as athletes.i think that's pretty solid evidence the school isn't dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football so it can win football games. There was a time when PA was a doormat. And until recently, Shiloh was reaping what it had sowed. Arkansas Baptist got drilled by everyone this year. LRCA has won one championship?

Admittedly, I get aggravated from time to time reading your posts, but I am not trying to be contentious here. It just seems to me that you are laser focused on running PA out of town because they are on a great run. You want to focus on financial aid and ignore the impact of Kelly and his great coaching staff, his unique philosophy and approach to the game, and the fact that he gets his kids to play disciplined and at an extremely high level. Those would be factors that I think an objective analysis would include.

Being objective, I think that if coach Kelly was at Wynne or Batesville or Morrilton or Sylavan Hills or anywhere else in the 5A, he would be dominating there. And then we wouldn't even be having these discussions.

Again, I am not arguing with you. Just giving you my thoughts.


MDXPHD

December 17, 2016, 03:26:51 pm #726 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:28:32 pm by MDXPHD
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 03:17:54 pm
MPX, why do you think the system is broken? Is it because PA is on a run and Shiloh once had a run? I promise you, when Kelly leaves, things will change. Pine Bluff, Greenwood, Barton and a host of other public schools have had great runs in a variety of sports. I guess I just don't understand why you are so upset about private schools particating in sports with everyone else? Are the kids upset, or do they want to beat the private schools?

Your numbers show that the same percentage of non-athletes get aid as athletes.i think that's pretty solid evidence the school isn't dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football so it can win football games. There was a time when PA was a doormat. And until recently, Shiloh was reaping what it had sowed. Arkansas Baptist got drilled by everyone this year. LRCA has won one championship?

Admittedly, I get aggravated from time to time reading your posts, but I am not trying to be contentious here. It just seems to me that you are laser focused on running PA out of town because they are on a great run. You want to focus on financial aid and ignore the impact of Kelly and his great coaching staff, his unique philosophy and approach to the game, and the fact that he gets his kids to play disciplined and at an extremely high level. Those would be factors that I think an objective analysis would include.

Being objective, I think that if coach Kelly was at Wynne or Batesville or Morrilton or Sylavan Hills or anywhere else in the 5A, he would be dominating there. And then we wouldn't even be having these discussions.

Again, I am not arguing with you. Just giving you my thoughts.

Right now, this discussion is focused on PA because this is a 5A football thread and I follow 5A football. It's also extremely active with somewhat intelligent posters who can typically have a civil discussion regarding private v public schools.

However, I disagree about Kelley. I have said numerous times that he's a good coach and given him credit, but I don't think that would happen at another school. His system works because he has better athletes/students than other schools. That is my opinion...and we won't know until he goes to prove it. It seems like after winning several championships, garnishing a ton of media attention, and having one of/if not the most successful program since 2003, he would have moved up in the coaching world if it was all about the system. He knows exactly what he has at PA, and that's why his system works there.

They actually are dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football..relative to total financial aid and financial aid from other sports.

And I know it seems like I'm focused on PA...but I'm really not. I'm focused on all sports. For instance, Harrison is the only 5A public school to ever win a 5A girls soccer title. It's not just PA and it's not just football. I'm not sure what the kids want though, since I don't speak for them. I have said, and will say it again, banning privates from participating in post season play will just be the end result if we don't fix this now. I would enjoy seeing them continue to compete in the AAA playoffs, just at a classification appropriate. As seven said earlier, a head count is just not the best system to classify students. It's an awful system. But I do think privates have advantages that should be addressed by AAA, and a multiplier does nothing to remedy them.

MDXPHD

December 17, 2016, 03:30:25 pm #727 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:33:24 pm by MDXPHD
.

Yellowcake

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 03:26:51 pm
Right now, this discussion is focused on PA because this is a 5A football thread and I follow 5A football. It's also extremely active with somewhat intelligent posters who can typically have a civil discussion regarding private v public schools.

However, I disagree about Kelley. I have said numerous times that he's a good coach and given him credit, but I don't think that would happen at another school. His system works because he has better athletes/students than other schools. That is my opinion...and we won't know until he goes to prove it. It seems like after winning several championships, garnishing a ton of media attention, and having one of/if not the most successful program since 2003, he would have moved up in the coaching world if it was all about the system. He knows exactly what he has at PA, and that's why his system works there.

They actually are dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football..relative to total financial aid and financial aid from other sports.

And I know it seems like I'm focused on PA...but I'm really not. I'm focused on all sports. For instance, Harrison is the only 5A public school to ever win a 5A girls soccer title. It's not just PA and it's not just football. I'm not sure what the kids want though, since I don't speak for them. I have said, and will say it again, banning privates from participating in post season play will just be the end result if we don't fix this now. I would enjoy seeing them continue to compete in the AAA playoffs, just at a classification appropriate. As seven said earlier, a head count is just not the best system to classify students. It's an awful system. But I do think privates have advantages that should be addressed by AAA, and a multiplier does nothing to remedy them.

If I missed it, I am sorry, but do you have a proposal on a more appropriate classification system other than student head count with a multiplier for private schools?

MDXPHD

Oh no, not a complete proposal. I have suggested how the AAA could easily move to at least a success advancement system, which would be easy to implement and would be better than the current system. This would, of course, be applied to public and private. Another method AAA could use would be to bump the schools who give a certain percentage of financial aid to athletes up to the higher class. For instance, 15 percent or more in one sport placed them in 6A. 25 percent, 7A..I think you know what I mean. Those are just two, very minor changes that could replace the multiplier.

JessieP

I give all the credit in the world to coach Kelley. But your rationale is wrong. If you put King or Hill at PA they would have the same success. The disproportionate amount of aid given to football players  kinda proves, to some extent, the recruiting rumors. Would you say Coach K is the greatest basketball coach of all time based on the success of team USA in the Olympics? no, he's coaching an all-star team. He has done a great job at Duke but they rarely win it all. It's the exact same thing. Kelley would not have the same success at Wynne or Batesville because he would be limited to the players he has, not the players he picks.

I have wondered why PA's style of football has not been duplicated verbatim at other area high schools? it's a system very dependent on a specific type player. Most schools don't have the luxury of hand choosing talent.

Another point, that knife cuts both ways. Not only does PA gain a massive advantage by getting these players they take away talent from opposing teams. They get stronger while their opponents get weaker. Wynne had probably the best talent in the state (I have got to stop saying that) but they can't beat an all-star team.

I'm sorry put if these numbers are accurate then PA is not playing apples for apples.     

sevenof400

December 17, 2016, 03:52:38 pm #731 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 03:55:50 pm by sevenof400
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 03:38:30 pm
If I missed it, I am sorry, but do you have a proposal on a more appropriate classification system other than student head count with a multiplier for private schools?

That's what I've been thinking about, Yellowcake.  However, it goes much further than just the private schools.  Allow me to throw some free and reduced numbers out here about a few 5A schools: (source: https://adedata.arkansas.gov/statewide/Districts/FreeReducedPaidLunch.aspx?year=27&search=greene&pagesize=10)

Alma 50.76% of the student population is on the free or reduced lunch program
Batesville 53.75%
Beebe 50.6%
Clarksville 71.3%
Forrest City 99.96%
GCT 50.72%
Greenbrier 41.1%
Harrison 47.9%
LRSD 70.78%
Morrilton (SCCSD) 100%
NLRSD 72.59%
Paragould 70.17%
PCSSD 53.75%
Wynne 58.76%
Vilonia 46.3%

Grond

December 17, 2016, 04:24:13 pm #732 Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 04:27:05 pm by Grond
Folks, as this discussion goes, just be aware that some information that looks "unusual" starts to look rather average when you compare data from other schools.

[NOTE: I feel like I am 'violating a code' by copying stuff from other threads, but I feel the information is of interest here.]

The idea went something like this: Despite all the comments about Pulaski Academy [PA] having a talent/recruiting advantage, is there a way to measure it?

My thought was to compare the number of PA players listed at Arkansas colleges, to other State Championship teams. I simply looked at the listed roster for a particular college, and counted the number of players from the listed high schools. This was done in October, 2015, and thus reflects the 2014 State Football Champions.

The rosters I looked at were all D1 and D2 colleges. The list does not include D3 and NAIA (Arkansas has 1 each of these).

Here we go:

Bentonville (7A Champ)  -  8 players

Pine Bluff (6A Champ)  -  13 players

Pulaski Academy (5A Champ)  -  7 players

Wynne (5A runner-up)  -  5 players

Warren (4A Champ)  -  6 players

Charleston (3A Champ)  - 4 players
............................................. ............................

A few observations:
1) Note how the numbers seem to line up. Larger classifications have more players in college, smaller schools have less.

2) Pulaski Academy does NOT seem to have an unusual number of college players. (I was actually surprised by this.)

A few remarks:
A) This list does NOT include players from these schools that went to colleges outside of Arkansas. I am assuming that the distribution of players in Arkansas colleges is a fair representation of all players going to college.

B) Some colleges only list the hometown (such as OBU). I gathered info by looking at the individual player profiles presented by the college.

C) Some colleges (SAU) list walk-ons; some don't (Ark. State). I just went with the information provided.

D) Some colleges change their roster throughout the season (such as UAPB). You are certainly free to check current (12/10/15) rosters. Again, this analysis was conducted on roughly 10/5/15.

E) Of the 13 players from Pine Bluff, 7 were at UAPB (local college).

JessieP

Actually the above post works against PA. You cannot make the argument "all great programs produce college players". The fact that PA has as many D1 players as the schools with 2, 3 and 4 times the number of students enrolled in school screams 'loaded deck'. To support the argument that PA plays it straight and wins with hard work and coaching only they'd have to have much much fewer college players than public schools.

Oldbadger

I am having a hard time accepting the importance and validity of Gronds post when it doesn't include out of state players.  I know it is difficult to get this info, but it is very important in order to prove the point.  Wish we could get that!

MB Hog

I have no idea how legit the various numbers are that are being thrown around here, but assuming they are true, shouldn't PA get a little credit for providing an opportunity to good students who don't have enough money to go to PA without financial help?  Yes, PA gives aid to athletes and non-athletes... both types have to achieve at a high level to stay in the school.  If they don't have the ability to keep up academically, they end up at another school.  Wouldn't it be discriminatory for good academic students who are financially challenged to be denied the opportunity for aid BECAUSE they are athletes?  If PA did that, we'd have a whole different discussion going on here about fairness and equal opportunity.

And keep in mind, almost every player on the football team has been at PA since at least 6th grade... and the majority of those were here even earlier.  Even if 33% of football players get aid to afford PA, that would have been decided well before those guys turned out to be good football players.  Maybe that percentage is higher because a large percentage of boys join the football team compared to other sports.  After all, it is one of few sports with no limits on roster size.

As I've said before, I really can't think of any impact players who showed up at PA around high school age... especially not locally.  I know Hunter Henry's family moved back to Arkansas from Georgia before his 9th grade year.  Jeremy Brady moved from Texas his junior year, I believe.  Other than those guys, I just can't think of anyone coming in at that age and making a big impact on the field.  I would challenge you to come up with 5 names of impact players in the last 10 years at PA who weren't at PA prior to high school.

My point is, no matter how the numbers are distributed, financial aid decisions were made based on need and merit, and prior to sports being a major factor.

Finally, regarding having better athletes, I just don't see it.  More committed - maybe; more disciplined - probably, but bigger, faster, and stronger?  Not typically.  One of the most amazing things about the PA team is that most of the teams they beat week in and week out are bigger and faster than PA.  We PA fans get to see that personally each week.  I think that's why we know that it can't last forever.  Whenever the coaching staff moves on (unless we get really fortunate with the next coach), we expect that our success will diminish at the same time.

PA Dad

Quote from: MB Hog on December 17, 2016, 07:57:25 pm
I have no idea how legit the various numbers are that are being thrown around here, but assuming they are true, shouldn't PA get a little credit for providing an opportunity to good students who don't have enough money to go to PA without financial help?  Yes, PA gives aid to athletes and non-athletes... both types have to achieve at a high level to stay in the school.  If they don't have the ability to keep up academically, they end up at another school.  Wouldn't it be discriminatory for good academic students who are financially challenged to be denied the opportunity for aid BECAUSE they are athletes?  If PA did that, we'd have a whole different discussion going on here about fairness and equal opportunity.

And keep in mind, almost every player on the football team has been at PA since at least 6th grade... and the majority of those were here even earlier.  Even if 33% of football players get aid to afford PA, that would have been decided well before those guys turned out to be good football players.  Maybe that percentage is higher because a large percentage of boys join the football team compared to other sports.  After all, it is one of few sports with no limits on roster size.

As I've said before, I really can't think of any impact players who showed up at PA around high school age... especially not locally.  I know Hunter Henry's family moved back to Arkansas from Georgia before his 9th grade year.  Jeremy Brady moved from Texas his junior year, I believe.  Other than those guys, I just can't think of anyone coming in at that age and making a big impact on the field.  I would challenge you to come up with 5 names of impact players in the last 10 years at PA who weren't at PA prior to high school.

My point is, no matter how the numbers are distributed, financial aid decisions were made based on need and merit, and prior to sports being a major factor.

Finally, regarding having better athletes, I just don't see it.  More committed - maybe; more disciplined - probably, but bigger, faster, and stronger?  Not typically.  One of the most amazing things about the PA team is that most of the teams they beat week in and week out are bigger and faster than PA.  We PA fans get to see that personally each week.  I think that's why we know that it can't last forever.  Whenever the coaching staff moves on (unless we get really fortunate with the next coach), we expect that our success will diminish at the same time.

I was going to say that but you said it first and better than I could have.

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:10:25 am
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.

Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.

I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...

And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.

I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.

I am surprised, but not shocked, that a third of the football team receives financial aid.  Aid is determined by need, not athletic ability.

If your point is that private schools have an advantage, you're beating a dead horse.  PA posters have admitted that.

If you're claiming that PA is cheating, you miss the point.  The only way the AAA has the information you post is because PA reports it pursuant to AAA rules.

If anyone is really interested in looking at the way financial aid is given at PA, please visit http://www.pulaskiacademy.org/page/admission/affordability.  It explains the process and the rules.

MDX' crusade is against private schools generally and PA specifically.  We've discussed this issue at length, but we've ignored the disparity between public schools.  Does MDX contend that Batesville and Paragould are equal in resources?  If not, why is he not complaining about it?

MB Hog

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:04:27 pm
I was going to say that but you said it first and better than I could have.
Ha!  Thanks, PA Dad.  Not sure that's completely true - you are always well-written and good at making your point.  ;)

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 10:46:03 am
A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average.

And what is your point?  Should PA refuse financial assistance to deserving students because they are athletes?

I think PA should be applauded for giving families without the financial resources for their kids to attend PA an opportunity.  I'm really puzzled by the criticism.

86jacketstchamps

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:31:39 pm
And what is your point?  Should PA refuse financial assistance to deserving students because they are athletes?

I think PA should be applauded for giving families without the financial resources for their kids to attend PA an opportunity.  I'm really puzzled by the criticism.

Well, depending on the amount offered to other students in those grades that are not in the football program could speak volumes.  I also am a little surprised in your reply to this as I have always looked at your discussions on this matter as being down the middle and fair.  I also know you least discuss debate with facts being your way of attributing merit to a topic.  If anyone couldn't see the point here when considering the inequality in scholarships to those not football related at a private school, then don't accuse others of being biased and driving an agenda. 

I have a friend from college who has a child attend PA.  Very intelligent but not involved in any athletics at all.  Their discussion with me insinuated there was little to none financial assistance for those not involved with athletics.  Now they did not seek assistance but made that comment based on conversations between Bruin parents.  They do love the school and the academics.

PA Dad

Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 03:52:38 pm
That's what I've been thinking about, Yellowcake.  However, it goes much further than just the private schools.  Allow me to throw some free and reduced numbers out here about a few 5A schools: (source: https://adedata.arkansas.gov/statewide/Districts/FreeReducedPaidLunch.aspx?year=27&search=greene&pagesize=10)

Alma 50.76% of the student population is on the free or reduced lunch program
Batesville 53.75%
Beebe 50.6%
Clarksville 71.3%
Forrest City 99.96%
GCT 50.72%
Greenbrier 41.1%
Harrison 47.9%
LRSD 70.78%
Morrilton (SCCSD) 100%
NLRSD 72.59%
Paragould 70.17%
PCSSD 53.75%
Wynne 58.76%
Vilonia 46.3%

This goes to my point that disparity is not really a private vs public debate.  There is as much disparity between the elite public schools and the have not public schools as there is between public and private.

Maybe we should be more focused on the solution than the problem (and I think this is where Seven has tried to steer the discussion).

MDXPHD

I've written several different responses to all that has been addressed so far, only to delete them all. I understand that PA fans can't see the problem. I will accept that. The elitist personality of PA fans is overwhelming to me. Even when I post numbers showing how disproportionate the financial aid is, we can somehow turn that around to how deserving PA is of praise for giving these kids a chance to excel. You don't have better athletes than other schools, but your small, 3A school has produced 30+ d-1 players in 13 years.

After seeing these numbers, if you really want an applause and to have the Gazette pick up a story about how great y'all are for giving kids an opportunity (although you deny kids regularly of opportunities, you know, if they aren't smart enough or something to get in your school), then so be it.

I'm done for the holidays, but I did want to share these numbers with all of you. Regardless of what the PA posters say, they are alarming. PA supporters can continue to be in denial, but it doesn't change how important this topic is. It will be pressed and pressed each year, and something will eventually change.

I will be back after the first of the year with the other school's numbers. I'm interested in seeing how the privates compare regarding scholarships. Hopefully, they will be as generous so we can praise them too.

PA Dad

Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 17, 2016, 08:43:41 pm
Well, depending on the amount offered to other students in those grades that are not in the football program could speak volumes.  I also am a little surprised in your reply to this as I have always looked at your discussions on this matter as being down the middle and fair.  I also know you least discuss debate with facts being your way of attributing merit to a topic.  If anyone couldn't see the point here when considering the inequality in scholarships to those not football related at a private school, then don't accuse others of being biased and driving an agenda. 

I have a friend from college who has a child attend PA.  Very intelligent but not involved in any athletics at all.  Their discussion with me insinuated there was little to none financial assistance for those not involved with athletics.  Now they did not seek assistance but made that comment based on conversations between Bruin parents.  They do love the school and the academics.

That's a fair question.  But, if you look at MDX's numbers, they show that non-athletes receive financial assistance at a slightly higher percentage than athletes do.

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 08:50:02 pm
I've written several different responses to all that has been addressed so far, only to delete them all. I understand that PA fans can't see the problem. I will accept that. The elitist personality of PA fans is overwhelming to me. Even when I post numbers showing how disproportionate the financial aid is, we can somehow turn that around to how deserving PA is of praise for giving these kids a chance to excel. You don't have better athletes than other schools, but your small, 3A school has produced 30+ d-1 players in 13 years.

After seeing these numbers, if you really want an applause and to have the Gazette pick up a story about how great y'all are for giving kids an opportunity (although you deny kids regularly of opportunities, you know, if they aren't smart enough or something to get in your school), then so be it.

I'm done for the holidays, but I did want to share these numbers with all of you. Regardless of what the PA posters say, they are alarming. PA supporters can continue to be in denial, but it doesn't change how important this topic is. It will be pressed and pressed each year, and something will eventually change.

I will be back after the first of the year with the other school's numbers. I'm interested in seeing how the privates compare regarding scholarships. Hopefully, they will be as generous so we can praise them too.

No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it always has two sides.  And there's always two sides to an argument.  If you can't see the other side, you're not being objective.

You are focused on an argument that PA supporters admit.  But you just ignore the disparity which exists in public schools. 

And, instead of focusing on the disparity, wouldn't the prudent course be to try to do something about it?  What are you doing?

86jacketstchamps

Quote from: MB Hog on December 17, 2016, 07:57:25 pm
I have no idea how legit the various numbers are that are being thrown around here, but assuming they are true, shouldn't PA get a little credit for providing an opportunity to good students who don't have enough money to go to PA without financial help?  Yes, PA gives aid to athletes and non-athletes... both types have to achieve at a high level to stay in the school.  If they don't have the ability to keep up academically, they end up at another school.  Wouldn't it be discriminatory for good academic students who are financially challenged to be denied the opportunity for aid BECAUSE they are athletes?  If PA did that, we'd have a whole different discussion going on here about fairness and equal opportunity.

And keep in mind, almost every player on the football team has been at PA since at least 6th grade... and the majority of those were here even earlier.  Even if 33% of football players get aid to afford PA, that would have been decided well before those guys turned out to be good football players.  Maybe that percentage is higher because a large percentage of boys join the football team compared to other sports.  After all, it is one of few sports with no limits on roster size.

As I've said before, I really can't think of any impact players who showed up at PA around high school age... especially not locally.  I know Hunter Henry's family moved back to Arkansas from Georgia before his 9th grade year.  Jeremy Brady moved from Texas his junior year, I believe.  Other than those guys, I just can't think of anyone coming in at that age and making a big impact on the field.  I would challenge you to come up with 5 names of impact players in the last 10 years at PA who weren't at PA prior to high school.

My point is, no matter how the numbers are distributed, financial aid decisions were made based on need and merit, and prior to sports being a major factor.

Finally, regarding having better athletes, I just don't see it.  More committed - maybe; more disciplined - probably, but bigger, faster, and stronger?  Not typically.  One of the most amazing things about the PA team is that most of the teams they beat week in and week out are bigger and faster than PA.  We PA fans get to see that personally each week.  I think that's why we know that it can't last forever.  Whenever the coaching staff moves on (unless we get really fortunate with the next coach), we expect that our success will diminish at the same time.

Without doing any research, I can name one that transferred in just to play and that is Broderick Green.  Not a lot to debate there, even had PA parents tell me that at the game the night they played us at Wynne.

86jacketstchamps

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:57:17 pm
No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it always has two sides.  And there's always two sides to an argument.  If you can't see the other side, you're not being objective.

You are focused on an argument that PA supporters admit.  But you just ignore the disparity which exists in public schools. 

And, instead of focusing on the disparity, wouldn't the prudent course be to try to do something about it?  What are you doing?

I think I agree, which is why I am going to push for the ability to get kids from Forrest City, Earle, McCrory, Cross County and any other students that might want to come to Wynne!  If they are great athletes, even better.  Maybe we could even rise money for them to offset travel costs or any cost associated with attending a school not in the district they live.  I'm hoping the AAA will be ok with that.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:57:17 pm
No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it always has two sides.  And there's always two sides to an argument.  If you can't see the other side, you're not being objective.

You are focused on an argument that PA supporters admit.  But you just ignore the disparity which exists in public schools. 

And, instead of focusing on the disparity, wouldn't the prudent course be to try to do something about it?  What are you doing?

Fair enough.

I need to stop wasting time posting this stuff on the message boards and being more proactive. Completely agree.

makessense

Just a couple of thoughts - Those kids receiving financial aid happen to play football, if they sing in the choir they receive the same aid.  PA does not offer free or reduced lunches so those numbers might not apply.

PA does have advantages, I believe the biggest being the coaching staff.  They have been together for years and have developed an impressive machine.  This will run it course in football in a couple of years.  If it lines up with Kelly leaving it will be easy to say it is just him but it isn't just him.

PA will struggle in most all sports outside of football this year.  Basketball will be a beat down. 

86jacketstchamps

Quote from: makessense on December 17, 2016, 09:09:55 pm
Just a couple of thoughts - Those kids receiving financial aid happen to play football, if they sing in the choir they receive the same aid.  PA does not offer free or reduced lunches so those numbers might not apply.

PA does have advantages, I believe the biggest being the coaching staff.  They have been together for years and have developed an impressive machine.  This will run it course in football in a couple of years.  If it lines up with Kelly leaving it will be easy to say it is just him but it isn't just him.

PA will struggle in most all sports outside of football this year.  Basketball will be a beat down.

Guessing that it must just be that the football players need more financial assistance than other areas of the school.   Makes sense to me.  I say, it doesn't really matte as long as AAA allows it.  As far as Kelly leaving or staying, don't fret, he will not be going anywhere.  He has had some very good opportunities but is smart and knows where his success year in and year out is.

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