Seeing that the sport is growing, particularly in the smaller schools it looks like their will be some kind of effort to address the conferences and so on.
Additionally I am hearing that there is a shortage of referees in the state.
Since it seems that AAA is going to be addressing soccer specifically what are some things you think are important to address?
I will throw a few of my ideas in the hat.
1. Removing penalty kicks tie breakers for in-season conference games. At the end of the 80 minutes teams get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a tie, and 0 points for loosing. The logic of ending it with penalty kicks is like asking the basketball team to finish a game with their best free throw takers, having a best arm contest among quarterbacks or a field goal kicking contest for football teams, or having a home run derby among baseball teams, to settle a tie in regulation... I know its not acceptable to end in a tie in those sports but nearly every country in the world accepts the soccer point system for regular season play. Penalty kicks are only used in rare circumstances.
2. Girls soccer in the fall. Boys in the Spring. This will allow schools to hire one coach to specialize in soccer. And keep our referee pool busy all year and not over too taxed in the spring.
Again what are your ideas?
Not so much my idea as much as a general consensus, but the 5A/6A blended districts should have never been passed in the first place.
There are rumblings that the 5A will petition to AAA for the 5A to be left alone as its own classification level after the blended mess ends in spring 2018, so hopefully AAA listens to reason and separates 5A and 6A then. The proposal is to have 4 conferences with 8 teams (or however many schools in a certain conference field soccer), similar to football, basketball, etc. If the proposal passes, the 5A would look like this (for anyone who isn't familiar with how the football conferences are divided):
Central: Beebe, LR Christian, LR Fair, LR McClellan, LR Mills, LR Parkview, Pulaski Academy, Sylvan Hills
East: Batesville, Blytheville, Forrest City, Greene County Tech, Nettleton, Paragould, Valley View, Wynne
South: Camden Fairview, De Queen, Hope, Hot Springs, Hot Springs Lakeside, Magnolia, Watson Chapel, White Hall
West: Alma, Clarksville, Farmington, Greenbrier, Harrison, Maumelle, Morrilton, Vilonia
*Schools in bold currently field soccer.
Change is needed for sure.
As much as I like this idea at first thought:
Quote from: beeroe on February 03, 2017, 01:51:37 pm
....Girls soccer in the fall. Boys in the Spring. This will allow schools to hire one coach to specialize in soccer. And keep our referee pool busy all year and not over too taxed in the spring.
You talk about a facilities issue nightmare with this - where would you play games?
I feel like the ref thing is a good idea on paper but hard to implement in the real world. Doubly so if a school has JV teams. I know I in the past have had to spend a lot of "goodwill capital" (or just straight up using vacation time) to make it to schools by 4:30pm for a 5pm kick off. Spreading out the boys and girls games from two months in the spring to two months in the spring and two months in the fall would make that hard. If there is no JV and it is only 1 V game at 7pm, that's more manageable. However, the drawback there is money does play a factor to some referees I know and "give up your evening for one game" isn't particularly ideal for a lot of folks.
And that is on top of the facilities issues that sevenof400 brings up.
Easier way is to recruit more referees ;D
Plus you have a lot of girls who play soccer and volleyball. Also trying to get field time to practice or play games would be nearly impossible.
Quote from: beeroe on February 03, 2017, 01:51:37 pm
Seeing that the sport is growing, particularly in the smaller schools it looks like their will be some kind of effort to address the conferences and so on.
Additionally I am hearing that there is a shortage of referees in the state.
Since it seems that AAA is going to be addressing soccer specifically what are some things you think are important to address?
I will throw a few of my ideas in the hat.
1. Removing penalty kicks tie breakers for in-season conference games. At the end of the 80 minutes teams get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a tie, and 0 points for loosing. The logic of ending it with penalty kicks is like asking the basketball team to finish a game with their best free throw takers, having a best arm contest among quarterbacks or a field goal kicking contest for football teams, or having a home run derby among baseball teams, to settle a tie in regulation... I know its not acceptable to end in a tie in those sports but nearly every country in the world accepts the soccer point system for regular season play. Penalty kicks are only used in rare circumstances.
2. Girls soccer in the fall. Boys in the Spring. This will allow schools to hire one coach to specialize in soccer. And keep our referee pool busy all year and not over too taxed in the spring.
Again what are your ideas?
You are spot on with your comments about there being a shortage on officials. We had a very difficult time last fall in club ball getting our state league games in. I would guess over half of them were cancelled due to this issue. Definitely unfortunate.
As for the PKs, doesn't bother me any. I just consider it a nuance of the game. Having said that, I do prefer to play two overtime periods prior to going to PKs. PKs aren't my favorite way to end a game, but I get it.
As for splitting the boys and girls into two different seasons, I would agree with the other replies in regards to this. Would be very tough for multi sport athletes. I guess I don't understand the need to have a designated coach for each gender. Our school has never had two head coaches, one for each team, and we don't seem to have an issue being successful at the state level. I've found this to be advantageous for us.
Buck
Granted, there are still multi-sport athletes in the spring as well... i.e., soccer athletes also participating in track and field, baseball, softball, and basketball (until March). At that point, it is up to the coaches to meet with the player(s) to work out a schedule that gives the student-athlete the best opportunity to get the most out of however many sports that they are participating in during the given semester.
There really is no "perfect" solution, but, as stated, soccer is growing in the state and hopefully AAA does what's in the best interest for the student-athletes.
Arkansas is behind most of our neighboring states by not allowing high school soccer players to play with their club during the high school season. If the AAA would wipe this rule off it's handbook, the players would be best served.
Oops, I meant to add; I agree, they need to do away with PK's during regular season play. Totally agree with the basketball free throw analogy!
I 110% agree with implementing ties instead of KFTM. We also need a deeper referee pool, as the current number makes missing work almost inevitable. In my opinion, current players should be encouraged to referee young groups, and eventually the older ones once they get into their twenties. Start them young and keep them going.
Quote from: WillC on February 08, 2017, 02:38:17 pm
I 110% agree with implementing ties instead of KFTM. We also need a deeper referee pool, as the current number makes missing work almost inevitable. In my opinion, current players should be encouraged to referee young groups, and eventually the older ones once they get into their twenties. Start them young and keep them going.
That's exactly what we are doing in Vilonia. Half of our girls team referees the younger club kids in town on Saturdays. Not only does it grow the referee pool for our youth program, it helps the girls see the game from another perspective than just a player.
Quote from: VHSCoach2 on February 08, 2017, 04:49:38 pm
That's exactly what we are doing in Vilonia. Half of our girls team referees the younger club kids in town on Saturdays. Not only does it grow the referee pool for our youth program, it helps the girls see the game from another perspective than just a player.
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports. I think more should be encouraged to do it. That might help with the pool of referees.
Quote from: OB11 on February 09, 2017, 09:24:51 am
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports. I think more should be encouraged to do it. That might help with the pool of referees.
During my tenure at Vilonia, I've only seen a handful. I've seen more for soccer than other sports. In fact, the only other sport where I can recall seeing a female official during a game featuring Vilonia is basketball.
Quote from: OB11 on February 09, 2017, 09:24:51 am
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports. I think more should be encouraged to do it. That might help with the pool of referees.
Yes there are, though the number is small. While it takes a certain (and special) skill set to be a referee, doing so as a female adds an extra level of complexity. On the other hand, one would think women telling men what to do would come natural......
...Offical science experiment in action to detect presence of estrogen in sizable quantities....
Quote from: sevenof400 on February 09, 2017, 10:16:18 am
Yes there are, though the number is small. While it takes a certain (and special) skill set to be a referee, doing so as a female adds an extra level of complexity. On the other hand, one would think women telling men what to do would come natural......
...Offical science experiment in action to detect presence of estrogen in sizable quantities....
+1 :D :D
Quote from: OB11 on February 09, 2017, 09:24:51 am
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports. I think more should be encouraged to do it. That might help with the pool of referees.
At the meeting of HS referees in central Arkansas on Tuesday there were seven or eight women. More this year than in past years.
Quote from: OB11 on February 09, 2017, 09:24:51 am
Are there any female officials in Arkansas that work high school games? I can't remember off the top of my head ever seeing one for any sports. I think more should be encouraged to do it. That might help with the pool of referees.
Seen 2-3 last Soccer season myself. 1 was the center for our boys match vs Mountain Home at Harrison. We had 1 at west fork this past season for a jr high football game.
There are some pretty good female refs in the state! IIRC there is usually one All Female crew on a state final, and I believe this past year two of the finals were centered by females. Two years ago among all that rain I had a female on my crew for an early round playoff game and she did a great job keeping everything running smooth when I was having a bad day at the office. She got rewarded as one of the top ARs in the region at regionals that summer. Well deserved.
NWA is having our referee meeting on Saturday. I don't think we have quite as many female refs as Central but I will report in all the same. As far as recruiting female referees goes, at least for club where there is an organized referee body it is something that is discussed all the time. It would be great to get numbers up! sevenof400 hits the nail on the head, though, about the added complexity of being a female official. I've seen some coaches (in club, not HS) go after female refs in a way they wouldn't have their male counterparts, and when the State doesn't support the referee it makes it hard.
I am so excited for the season, yall. I'm getting "Memory" notifications on facebook from my playing days and I am sad that now the season doesn't start until the end of February for whatever reason.
I have actually considered being a ref for soccer as I have learned the sport well now and still in really good fitness.... Are they struggling finding referees in the high school level in soccer more so than other sports even? Also, I agree women could really get involved to add numbers to ref the sport as well.
Quote from: beach bum on February 09, 2017, 03:10:25 pm
I have actually considered being a ref for soccer as I have learned the sport well now and still in really good fitness.... Are they struggling finding referees in the high school level in soccer more so than other sports even? Also, I agree women could really get involved to add numbers to ref the sport as well.
Pages in the Directory PDFs:
Basketball: 25
Football: 21
Baseball: 11
Softball: 10
Volleyball: 9
Soccer: 5
Track: 3
Wrestling: 1
So there's a lot of variable factors like "how many schools play the sport" and "how many officials are needed for each sport" and all that, but by raw numbers soccer is 6th out of 8 sports that AOA has a directory for in raw count of registered officials. I feel like the PDF is usually 6 pages, too, but the fifth page is only half full. I could be remembering wrong, and there's still a couple of weeks til games start, but it just seems like a lower number than normal.
There's 191 currently registered soccer officials, broken down by region:
1E: 7
1W: 31
2: 16
3: 18
4: 17
5N: 31
5S: 38
6: 1
7: 16
8: 16
There's, what, 108? Schools with soccer. So if everyone were playing, there'd be 54 games, meaning 162 officials needed. Currently 29 over that cap, but that assumes everyone registered is actually going to do games, and of course not everyone is going to play on one night, and blah blah blah.
SHORT VERSION: There's 191 registered referees but most of us will have job/family conflicts pop up, so I think closer to 250 would be needed to be a "healthy" number. There's probably enough referees to "get by", but it would be good for more people to be around to share the workload. Coaches get tired of seeing the same faces all the time, after all ;)
Quote from: chaoslord on February 09, 2017, 04:55:41 pm
There's 191 currently registered soccer officials, broken down by region:
1E: 7
1W: 31
2: 16
3: 18
4: 17
5N: 31
5S: 38
6: 1
7: 16
8: 16
And that number can be misleading at times. There are generally a few people who sign up with little to no knowledge of the game or at least what's involved in refereeing. Assignors are willing to work with people who are really interested to get them up to speed, but you really get a mixed bag. To steal someone else's story, a guy signed up to referee HS in my area and the assignor called him up to introduce himself and gauge the new guy's experience.
Have you ever refereed before?
No, but it doesn't look too hard.
Do you have any background in soccer?
No, just watched a couple of games on TV.
Ok, do you have a uniform?
No.
That's Ok, I can lend you a jersey until you can pick up your own. Can you go to XXX school on Thursday to do two ARs?
It's supposed to rain on Thursday. I don't work in the rain.
Ok. Thanks anyway. (Never called back)
Definitely an extreme case, but a name on the list doesn't mean you actually have a referee.
But isn't that story part of the problem itself? The assignor trying to put a completely unqualified "referee" on 2 different games? That's a disservice to the game and especially the players! SMH. >:(
Quote from: Just1Coach on February 10, 2017, 02:10:04 pm
But isn't that story part of the problem itself? The assignor trying to put a completely unqualified "referee" on 2 different games? That's a disservice to the game and especially the players! SMH. >:(
Well they were non-conference games at the beginning of the season, and everyone has to start somewhere, but it raises problems I agree. I was on that referee crew and was very relieved to hear that this guy wasn't going to be there. The assignor must have found a better candidate because I didn't do any duals that year.
Quote from: Arbitro on February 10, 2017, 02:20:37 pm
Well they were non-conference games at the beginning of the season, and everyone has to start somewhere, but it raises problems I agree. I was on that referee crew and was very relieved to hear that this guy wasn't going to be there. The assignor must have found a better candidate because I didn't do any duals that year.
Fortunately. Personally, I hate working duals. With a burning passion.
Quote from: WillC on February 13, 2017, 07:40:37 pm
Fortunately. Personally, I hate working duals. With a burning passion.
I worked 10 duals last spring, seven with the same partner. It is definitely inferior to the three man system (diagonal system of control), but it's workable if you know what you're doing. I was pretty comfortable with it by the end of the season, but I'd prefer to avoid it this year if possible.
Quote from: Arbitro on February 14, 2017, 08:30:30 am
I worked 10 duals last spring, seven with the same partner. It is definitely inferior to the three man system (diagonal system of control), but it's workable if you know what you're doing. I was pretty comfortable with it by the end of the season, but I'd prefer to avoid it this year if possible.
While I can imagine duals as not being favorable for any referee, at least there was at least some form of continuity in 70% of your duals. Over the last few years, I have seen very few instances of the same referees being grouped together for even two matches, let alone seven.
You guys have a thankless job, and I wish I saw more respect from players, coaches, and ESPECIALLY parents toward the referees statewide.
Speaking of referee systems, has anyone seen the dreaded double dual (three-whistle) system? At least Arkansas hasn't adopted that.
Quote from: WillC on February 14, 2017, 10:48:53 pm
Speaking of referee systems, has anyone seen the dreaded double dual (three-whistle) system? At least Arkansas hasn't adopted that.
Thankfully not. I understand they use it in Pennsylvania at least some of the time.
Quote from: WillC on February 14, 2017, 10:48:53 pm
Speaking of referee systems, has anyone seen the dreaded double dual (three-whistle) system? At least Arkansas hasn't adopted that.
Don't give AAA any ideas.
Quote from: Arbitro on February 15, 2017, 09:18:21 am
Thankfully not. I understand they use it in Pennsylvania at least some of the time.
It's SOP in Florida. Diagonal System of Control is prohibited in the Sunshine State.
Quote from: WillC on February 15, 2017, 12:29:55 pm
It's SOP in Florida. Diagonal System of Control is prohibited in the Sunshine State.
That's right. Florida does duals (two whistle) or double duals (three whistle) during the regular season, and all double duals in the playoffs.
Quote from: Arbitro on February 15, 2017, 12:41:58 pm
That's right. Florida does duals (two whistle) or double duals (three whistle) during the regular season, and all double duals in the playoffs.
That system looks just awful.
Quote from: sevenof400 on February 15, 2017, 01:20:55 pm
That system looks just awful.
Agreed. I'm not sure of the rationale behind it. Do they think the game is more controlled with it?
Among the problems (weaknesses) I see with the double dual system is a consistent application of advantage across all three referees.
The thing that irks me about the double dual is the responsibility of the assistant. We're told to "assist the referee," but with a whistle, we BECOME a referee.
There have been a couple of games where I actually preferred duels.
Ive had seen some Centers that struggle to involve the ARs and struggle to keep up with the pace of the game so they miss calls.
Ive seen players who figure out how to get away with things on the weak corners of the field knowing that the AR cant see and the Center is not keeping up. Often times a Dual system will curtail that.
Generally I am less concerned with out of bounds calls that an AR makes, but attending to off-sides is a critical function and can change the game. So if the Duals miss an out of bounds call no worries... But they cant mess up call for "off sides".
The biggest issue with a multiple whistle system is the harmonization of calls. When two (or three!) referees are on different pages about what constitutes a foul in today's game, players get understandably frustrated. And when there is a clear difference in experience/skill between the referees, it is very challenging to have the game called the same on both ends of the field. Also, when possession changes rapidly the referees in a dual are more obligated to stay close to their offside lines, which opens up a hole in the middle of the field where neither ref is close to play. These limitations can be reduced by good communication between the referees both before and during the game, as well as experience, anticipation, and effort. If we had to do duals all the time the referees would get better at it, but it is and always will be an inferior system to the DSC (one referee, two ARs).
Quote from: beeroe on February 17, 2017, 12:33:30 pm
There have been a couple of games where I actually preferred duels.
Ive had seen some Centers that struggle to involve the ARs and struggle to keep up with the pace of the game so they miss calls.
Ive seen players who figure out how to get away with things on the weak corners of the field knowing that the AR cant see and the Center is not keeping up. Often times a Dual system will curtail that.
Generally I am less concerned with out of bounds calls that an AR makes, but attending to off-sides is a critical function and can change the game. So if the Duals miss an out of bounds call no worries... But they cant mess up call for "off sides".
Question out of curiosity. I've always been told, by every official and coach that I've come across, that the correct term is "offside". Is this not the case?
The correct term is offside.
To be more specific, one can be in an off side position without being in violation of Law 11 (offside). (That wasn't an attempt to explain the law, just an attempt to use the terms in a grammatically correct manner..)
Offside does not have a plural form in soccer.
Quote from: sevenof400 on February 20, 2017, 07:39:55 am
The correct term is offside.
To be more specific, one can be in an off side position without being in violation of Law 11 (offside). (That wasn't an attempt to explain the law, just an attempt to use the terms in a grammatically correct manner..)
Offside does not have a plural form in soccer.
Thank you for confirming my thinking. Appreciated.
My suggestions for improving Arkansas High School soccer would include the following.
1. Legalize passing back
2. Legalize overlapping wing backs.
3. Legalize building your attack from the back
4. Legalize using all of the field. Not just the part in the middle.
Quote from: pitchperfect on April 29, 2017, 03:40:37 pm
My suggestions for improving Arkansas High School soccer would include the following.
1. Legalize passing back
2. Legalize overlapping wing backs.
3. Legalize building your attack from the back
4. Legalize using all of the field. Not just the part in the middle.
You've been watching waaaaaaaay too much high school soccer around these parts lately haven't you, PitchPerfect?
Quote from: pitchperfect on April 29, 2017, 03:40:37 pm
My suggestions for improving Arkansas High School soccer would include the following.
1. Legalize passing back
2. Legalize overlapping wing backs.
3. Legalize building your attack from the back
4. Legalize using all of the field. Not just the part in the middle.
Legalize?
You simply aren't a very good team if you don't pass back, use complete field and overlap passing.
I don't get what you mean? 🤔
Quote from: Lets Go 5 on April 29, 2017, 08:24:29 pm
Legalize?
You simply aren't a very good team if you don't pass back, use complete field and overlap passing.
I don't get what you mean? 🤔
I was being a little sarcastic. Yes I've been watching a lot of lower classification soccer. They don't do much of those things. In fact they do none of them. I'm sure it's better in the more established programs.
Quote from: pitchperfect on April 29, 2017, 08:30:57 pm
I was being a little sarcastic. Yes I've been watching a lot of lower classification soccer. They don't do much of those things. In fact they do none of them. I'm sure it's better in the more established programs.
Ohhh, I see
Sorry , a little slow tonight.
Yes, Arkansas soccer is behind.
Also it fights to keep clubs going which travel and play more competitive teams. Say Dallas, Oklahoma or KC areas.
It for sure makes a difference.
NWA has a few clubs
LR area had a few
And the Sercy college coach is working with the club I was told
All these things are great and help Arkansas
Siloam Springs scrimmages JBU
I wish and it maybe happening and I don't know it. All our in state colleges helping the growth of the high school level.
Conway should be a hot spot with all the colleges down there.
Soccer is gaining popularity but has to fight for field time in the fall with football. Our school is successful because we have a lot of club players. SS still puts more emphasis on football and basketball. It would be hard to change any schedule to accommodate a split season. Reffing shouldn't be to hard to get officials, most nights you get 3 games and it may take 4 hrs to get it. As for the PK's, I'm all for a fairly quick end after 1-1/2 hr of play, playing and extended time you risk more injuries, later travel for the visiting team, close games can be physically and emotionally draining. When soccer becomes a headlining sport and packs the stadiums, then we will get the AAA attention!
Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on April 29, 2017, 09:32:14 pm
Soccer is gaining popularity but has to fight for field time in the fall with football. Our school is successful because we have a lot of club players. SS still puts more emphasis on football and basketball. It would be hard to change any schedule to accommodate a split season. Reffing shouldn't be to hard to get officials, most nights you get 3 games and it may take 4 hrs to get it. As for the PK's, I'm all for a fairly quick end after 1-1/2 hr of play, playing and extended time you risk more injuries, later travel for the visiting team, close games can be physically and emotionally draining. When soccer becomes a headlining sport and packs the stadiums, then we will get the AAA attention!
As does just about every other school district in the state and AAA which is a shame. Sure, those may be the "money-makers" and pack the stands the most, but AAA sure acts to act like no other sports exist/matter.
Moving on...
With these new combined classification districts, is there actually a rule that says those matches have to go to PKs if regulation ends in a tie? They aren't conference games. They are district games. That's different, no matter what anyone tries to tell us.
Example: Say Vilonia-Beebe end in a tie. They are in separate conferences for the post-season tournaments. Why should they have to play PKs and risk a misstep from the kicker (i.e. torn ligament or something like that), or a keeper landing wrong on their shoulder? Injuries can happen, albeit a much lower chance, during PKs as well. Sure, there would be some teams that, if ended in a tie after regulation, need to settle things for seeding (like Vilonia-Greenbrier or Vilonia-Morrilton in our combined district for example), but the majority wouldn't have to.
How many teams in 4A are 4A schools and how many are 3A and below? Does it make sense to have separate post-season play for 3A and below yet? There seem to be a lot of programs that are boys only in the current 4A.
Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 01, 2017, 09:29:52 am
How many teams in 4A are 4A schools and how many are 3A and below? Does it make sense to have separate post-season play for 3A and below yet? There seem to be a lot of programs that are boys only in the current 4A.
I did all of the sorting and I'd say it'd be fairly even. 4A would have 27 teams as to where 3A would have 24. That's if all of the teams that declare actually played though.
Quote from: TheGoalkeeper13 on May 01, 2017, 10:59:47 am
I did all of the sorting and I'd say it'd be fairly even. 4A would have 27 teams as to where 3A would have 24. That's if all of the teams that declare actually played though.
I thought that would be about the split, but I am also wondering if all of those declared actually fielded teams. I know that in the 4A-2 all listed at least fielded a guys team. Would it be worth it for the 3A to field a smaller state tourney maybe 8-10 teams?
Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 01, 2017, 11:37:54 am
I thought that would be about the split, but I am also wondering if all of those declared actually fielded teams. I know that in the 4A-2 all listed at least fielded a guys team. Would it be worth it for the 3A to field a smaller state tourney maybe 8-10 teams?
As far as I am aware out of those 24, 22 schools fielded boys teams. If they did create a 3A, I feel like that'd be a good size for a tournament.
Soccer needs to be treated different than other sports. I'd like to see Arkansas design a relegation league. This is how they do it in professional leagues in Europe.
Take the top soccer programs and put them in the top level. Not sure what the cutoff should be number wise, maybe take the top 32 and divide into 4 regional 8 team conferences. You could take the next 32, then the next 32 and finally everyone else. You'd have 4 classifications.
The bottom 2 teams at each level move down a level at the end of the year and the top 2 teams from the next level down move up.
The reason? There are certain schools that have a lot of club players that make games very uneven. It's not fun for the losing team and the winning team isn't challenged.
The levels should not be base on enrollment but rather success. Everyone has an opportunity to move up if they develop their soccer program and if you don't care about soccer but use it as a filler sport, you'll move down and play like teams.
Just a suggestion.
You can't make everyone equal, you only give opportunity for equal effort. Don't punish schools that have players giving more effort to be better.
Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 06, 2017, 05:50:39 pm
You can't make everyone equal, you only give opportunity for equal effort. Don't punish schools that have players giving more effort to be better.
Relegation does not punish schools who improve. If a school does better they can move up. Relegation does not make everyone equal but it puts teams against teams that are similar in skill. When a game ends up 11-0 what good is that for either team?
Relegation has a negative tone but it is not meant as a negative. You can move up or down depending on the strength of the team. The idea is to even up the matchups.
There are 4A teams that can play with or beat 7A teams and if they are equally matched its a much more interesting game for both teams. It's better than the 4A crushing another weak 4A team or the 7A team crushing another 7A team.
Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 06, 2017, 05:50:39 pm
You can't make everyone equal, you only give opportunity for equal effort. Don't punish schools that have players giving more effort to be better.
Thought the same things as you when I saw that post. Just because a team, area, or particular school that has kids that choose to play at a higher level and get tha best training doesn't mean they should be singled out for being in a certain league or division. I'm all for playing at your level when it comes to club ball. Playing better competition just makes you better.....period. But this doesn't apply to anything in high school athletics.
If a school isn't happy with their success in a given sport then they can put together a grass roots program to build their players like some of these communities have. It's blatantly obvious who has these programs in place based on the success the same schools seem to have every year. It's not because they have better atheletes. Just having good athletes will get you by in a few sports, but it won't happen in soccer.
High school athletics have playoffs and state championships based on the size of the school you attend. It's a cycle that takes place every year in every sport and it's a beautiful thing to witness and be a part of. If we want leagues and games based on skill level then go play club ball or professional ball, that's what they're there for.
Quote from: Red Wolf on May 06, 2017, 08:22:34 pm
Relegation does not punish schools who improve. If a school does better they can move up. Relegation does not make everyone equal but it puts teams against teams that are similar in skill. When a game ends up 11-0 what good is that for either team?
Relegation has a negative tone but it is not meant as a negative. You can move up or down depending on the strength of the team. The idea is to even up the matchups.
There are 4A teams that can play with or beat 7A teams and if they are equally matched its a much more interesting game for both teams. It's better than the 4A crushing another weak 4A team or the 7A team crushing another 7A team.
I saw teams get crushed in football, basketball, volleyball, and other sports this year. All of them playing within their appropriate conferences. It just happens. Nothing is going to change that. I agree that it's not the ideal scenario, but it's going to happen.
I completely get everything you've said and understand where you're coming from. It just won't work.
Quote from: Buck183 on May 06, 2017, 09:44:59 pm
I saw teams get crushed in football, basketball, volleyball, and other sports this year. All of them playing within their appropriate conferences. It just happens. Nothing is going to change that. I agree that it's not the ideal scenario, but it's going to happen.
I completely get everything you've said and understand where you're coming from. It just won't work.
Sure it would.
In fact, it would be the best development for high school athletics in this state - ever.
Just imagine more teams playing against appropriate competition - how could this be a bad thing?
Taken to the extreme, a school might be playing in EVERY classification across all of the sports but so what? If every team could participate on a more level basis with the teams they are competing against - how could this be and?
It will take some out of the box thinking to make it work - and one massively better AAA office (one that actually communicates) to pull it off but it would be great for athletes AND would address the many issue with the current classification system.
Quote from: sevenof400 on May 06, 2017, 09:49:53 pm
Sure it would.
In fact, it would be the best development for high school athletics in this state - ever.
Just imagine more teams playing against appropriate competition - how could this be a bad thing?
Taken to the extreme, a school might be playing in EVERY classification across all of the sports but so what? If every team could participate on a more level basis with the teams they are competing against - how could this be and?
It will take some out of the box thinking to make it work - and one massively better AAA office (one that actually communicates) to pull it off but it would be great for athletes AND would address the many issue with the current classification system.
You may very well be right. I'm just too narrow minded to see it and I admit it.
Quote from: sevenof400 on May 06, 2017, 09:49:53 pm
Sure it would.
In fact, it would be the best development for high school athletics in this state - ever.
Just imagine more teams playing against appropriate competition - how could this be a bad thing?
Taken to the extreme, a school might be playing in EVERY classification across all of the sports but so what? If every team could participate on a more level basis with the teams they are competing against - how could this be and?
It will take some out of the box thinking to make it work - and one massively better AAA office (one that actually communicates) to pull it off but it would be great for athletes AND would address the many issue with the current classification system.
I do agree in the fact it would help a great deal.
But
There are a great many things that would make it not work well. When you change them then maybe something like that would work.
Quote from: Lets Go 5 on May 06, 2017, 10:33:28 pm
I do agree in the fact it would help a great deal.
But
There are a great many things that would make it not work well. When you change them then maybe something like that would work.
I'm new to the board so I'm not trying to be a jerk when I ask this question but what other things would need to change to make something like "relegation" work?
Your giving a crutch to the schools to be bad or mediocre, some schools will never care about "X" sport and put all the resources into what they want to headline. It would be embarrassing to me to see a 6/7a school play a 4a or 5a division. You want a better program, the school will have to get better coaches and put more resources into it or parents and coaches get into a strong club program. Don't punish those that are already doing this and say it's not fair they have X amount of club players and they are too good, that's this kids choice, not the schools. You can't coach desire and you shouldn't punish a team loaded with kids with more than others. It will change every year.
Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 07, 2017, 09:32:49 am
Your giving a crutch to the schools to be bad or mediocre, some schools will never care about "X" sport and put all the resources into what they want to headline. It would be embarrassing to me to see a 6/7a school play a 4a or 5a division. You want a better program, the school will have to get better coaches and put more resources into it or parents and coaches get into a strong club program. Don't punish those that are already doing this and say it's not fair they have X amount of club players and they are too good, that's this kids choice, not the schools. You can't coach desire and you shouldn't punish a team loaded with kids with more than others. It will change every year.
Good 5A schools already play 6A & 7A schools in non-conference and beat them regularly. The games are much better than most of the conference games....more competitive. For the schools that will never care about soccer...they will end up in a lower classification...if they decided to improve...they'd move up. Anybody that knows anything about soccer in Arkansas knows the smaller enrollment schools in areas of the state with a lot of club players are going to be better than larger schools that have little to no club play in their area. I never said it's not fair that a school have X amount of club players...but your argument is a little hard to interpret.
Simply put...some schools don't emphasize soccer and/or don't have any club players. It's not the kids fault but do you think that them playing schools with lots of club players is any fun. Do you think those kids enjoy getting beat 11-0? By the time those kids get to high school age it's too late to start playing club to try and catch up.
If a community wants to improve their soccer program they need to develop players when they are young with a good community soccer program. Then they need to develop a classic program as the club matures. That will be what helps the High School team to improve. If the community doesn't care about soccer let them play at a lower level.
I love to see good competition, we play up too, Springdale, Harber, BV West and we beat them this year, first time ever against Springdale and Harber. We love to play Harrison, great competition, we played tournaments against Mt Home and Mt St Mary's. We try to set up games against good teams, played up against a couple great Oklahoma teams we lost to. You will not get better if you don't try to play harder competition, you learn more from adversity than easy wins or less competitive teams. When your kid have been a club player for 10 yrs, they should be good on the field. It shows in a team record, it's their reward. It won't be the same every year, we will be strong for a couple more years but after that it could be anyone else turn. Sticking them in a variable conference because they are stronger or weaker is a joke for a HS program that can have several graduate out, quit, or get injured. In club teams, you want good competition so you choose your division and it's easier to work with and schedule.
Even with a league of the 32 best teams in the state, the top ten could still beat the bottom ten by 3+. There's quite a drop-off. While it may sound good in theory, a promotion/relegation system would never be implemented. That's just not how scholastic sports work.
Well people once thought we'd never land on the moon either.
But if AAA wont consider it, then they need to allow more non-conference games. This year they added more conference games and cut down opportunities to play like level teams.
Quote from: Red Wolf on May 09, 2017, 07:56:36 am
Well people once thought we'd never land on the moon either.
But if AAA wont consider it, then they need to allow more non-conference games. This year they added more conference games and cut down opportunities to play like level teams.
I keep it easy...
I simply look at High School soccer as what it is..."Rec Soccer"
Most of the cases the High School doesn't have a full time soccer coaches. And some of those coaches wouldn't even coach soccer if it wasn't a foot in the door at the school.
The average school has what maybe 2-6 real soccer players at a given time. The others are players that just enjoy the game. By real I mean players that train year around. While half the team is at the pool or on the couch...They are out running 10 miles or playing 3v3 in 100 plus degrees.
Some think soccer season is over after the state finals games.
Buck and I can tell you it's really just getting started at that point. It kills me when people ask when is soccer over for the year....The answer...Never really maybe for a 1-2 week break they will take after state for themselves.
It's a commitment!!!
If your lucky you will have a Coach with the passion for the game truly.
If your lucky then you will have several players that will play in the snow, rain or heat. Give their time when all the others are out having different fun.
If you have that. Then you have a "Good" team.
Anyways
That is truly how you get better.
Don't have the state change things for everyone else.."For the common good of all." Don't have them try to tell us how we can become better..Get out there and do it. It's simple.
Sorry if this seems rude. But it simply is being truthful.
Quote from: Lets Go 5 on May 09, 2017, 09:28:53 am
I keep it easy...
I simply look at High School soccer as what it is..."Rec Soccer"
Rant on:
Why do people look down on "Rec Soccer"? Every single "Classic" player was once a "Rec" player. There are extremely talented "Rec" players who choose to participate in multiple other activities--Volleyball, Cheer, Band, etc. The assumption being that to be a good/great soccer player every other activity has to cease. So not true.
Try telling all those players and parents in the Heller Cup this past weekend that they are only "Rec" players. The games were, for the most part, tight, competitive and skilled matches. Players from several teams will also be participating in the Governors Cup or ASC the next 2 weekends.
Can we please try to avoid these type of generalizations? Please and thank you.
Rant off.
Quote from: Just1Coach on May 09, 2017, 10:37:23 am
Rant on:
Why do people look down on "Rec Soccer"? Every single "Classic" player was once a "Rec" player. There are extremely talented "Rec" players who choose to participate in multiple other activities--Volleyball, Cheer, Band, etc. The assumption being that to be a good/great soccer player every other activity has to cease. So not true.
Try telling all those players and parents in the Heller Cup this past weekend that they are only "Rec" players. The games were, for the most part, tight, competitive and skilled matches. Players from several teams will also be participating in the Governors Cup or ASC the next 2 weekends.
Can we please try to avoid these type of generalizations? Please and thank you.
Rant off.
Everyone usually starts out in Rec soccer, so kids join HS to be part of the glory. Tournament play is great to step up your game and play teams you may never see on the regular HS schedule. If you aren't getting out of your area to play then your missing an opportunity to get better by playing better teams. Competition on the Rec field may not be as good as the club games and that has been our experience. Our club team played Rec teams from Rogers and Fayetteville but realized that it was good but we played tougher teams in KC, Broken Arrow, Ft Smith & Little Rock.
How many times has Rec teams brought on a club team for a better challenge on their schedule?
Quote from: Just1Coach on May 09, 2017, 10:37:23 am
Rant on:
Why do people look down on "Rec Soccer"? Every single "Classic" player was once a "Rec" player. There are extremely talented "Rec" players who choose to participate in multiple other activities--Volleyball, Cheer, Band, etc. The assumption being that to be a good/great soccer player every other activity has to cease. So not true.
Try telling all those players and parents in the Heller Cup this past weekend that they are only "Rec" players. The games were, for the most part, tight, competitive and skilled matches. Players from several teams will also be participating in the Governors Cup or ASC the next 2 weekends.
Can we please try to avoid these type of generalizations? Please and thank you.
Rant off.
Sorry if the term Rec offends you. It was ment to describe a level of play. There is nothing at all wrong with Rec.
We were talking about two things above my comment.
How to make Arkansas Soccer better and some wanting to change the structure to level the field out.
But, You kind of proved my point.
Say our kids are on the same High School team. Your child does Cheer while mine spends the other 8 months training in Soccer.
When they join up for High School soccer. Your child will be far behind mine in most cases. As far as soccer goes.
The coach has to:
Spend more time with your child then mine. Which slows my kids training down.
The Coach has to train at a lower level because yours wasn't present on the days the others were learning the same stuff he is now repeating.
You child will have less touches on the ball which in tern mean.
Won't be able to read a field as good.
Won't be able to pass and receive passes as good.
Won't be able to work and know how to work the ball through traffic.
So, What does that any good for Arkansas soccer?
That's what we are all talking about right?
I love a kid that can play multiple sports. But it is what it is.
Quote from: Lets Go 5 on May 09, 2017, 12:00:14 pm
Sorry if the term Rec offends you. It was ment to describe a level of play. There is nothing at all wrong with Rec.
We were talking about two things above my comment.
How to make Arkansas Soccer better and some wanting to change the structure to level the field out.
But, You kind of proved my point.
Say our kids are on the same High School team. Your child does Cheer while mine spends the other 8 months training in Soccer.
When they join up for High School soccer. Your child will be far behind mine in most cases. As far as soccer goes.
The coach has to:
Spend more time with your child then mine. Which slows my kids training down.
The Coach has to train at a lower level because yours wasn't present on the days the others were learning the same stuff he is now repeating.
You child will have less touches on the ball which in tern mean.
Won't be able to read a field as good.
Won't be able to pass and receive passes as good.
Won't be able to work and know how to work the ball through traffic.
So, What does that any good for Arkansas soccer?
That's what we are all talking about right?
I love a kid that can play multiple sports. But it is what it is.
And at the end of the day, one child MIGHT get a $4,000 scholarship to play soccer that she MIGHT finish her college career with. There's nothing wrong with focusing on one sport, but let's not chastise others for playing multiple. It can be done. I played soccer, football, and basketball in high school. I quit club soccer after 9th grade (I played in the 7A West, the competition level was pretty similar anyway). I still received scholarship offers in both football and soccer. You don't have to spend money and travel around the country to get better at a sport.
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.
Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 09:25:10 am
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.
There is not a girls team in 4A that can touch them.....
Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 09:25:10 am
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.
New proposal is stupid and in no way does it improve anything. Just leave things alone.
Quote from: WillC on May 09, 2017, 12:17:54 pm
And at the end of the day, one child MIGHT get a $4,000 scholarship to play soccer that she MIGHT finish her college career with. There's nothing wrong with focusing on one sport, but let's not chastise others for playing multiple. It can be done. I played soccer, football, and basketball in high school. I quit club soccer after 9th grade (I played in the 7A West, the competition level was pretty similar anyway). I still received scholarship offers in both football and soccer. You don't have to spend money and travel around the country to get better at a sport.
It is quite amazing how much money parents "invest" in their kid committing to a particular sport for the sake of gaining a scholarship. Parents will spend as much money in a year of travel ball, including tour fees, food, fuel, hotel, equipment, as what a year of tuition costs. Add that up from the time a kid turns, say ten years old, and do it all the way through high school, and you could've saved that money to go to a nice university...
Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 09:25:10 am
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.
Don't forget that privates are then multiplied by 1.5, so most likely they would bump up.
My two biggest issues with the current set up are:
1. Travel distances. We have three schools which are more than 3 hours away from us. Three hours through the mountains.
2. Meaningful games. We are in a conference which has schools with enrollment as low as 90 students being matched up against schools that have enrollment as high as 464. The 4A also makes up nearly half of all of the teams playing soccer in the state. If you are a 1 or 2A School you have virtually no hope of post season play and no chance of having a winning season. If the 4 or 5 largest schools in the 4A were asked to move up a conference they would fight it tooth and nail but fail to see an issue at all to have these small schools in their conferences. One coach from a 4A school looked me straight in the face and said 4A girls soccer could not compete in the 5A.... So how do we expect the 3a and below teams to compete with them? Actually if the 4a conference were a smaller conference the true 4a schools could schedule more meaningful games which would better prepare them for post season play. Rather than driving 3 hours to go and beat a team 14-0.
It is either time for a 3A conference which would mean even more travel for smaller schools. Or a promotion relegation system which eases travel and helps to create more competitive conferences.
Quote from: Sir Alex on May 15, 2017, 11:25:05 am
Don't forget that privates are then multiplied by 1.5, so most likely they would bump up.
On what I was looking at AAA already moved the private schools where they wanted them.
LRCA would be 5A
PA, Subiaco and Shiloh would be 4A
CAC, Episcopal, Baptist Prep would be 3A
This new proposal, that hopefully falls by the wayside in the end, has me, and many other coaches that I know, changing tune on the blended conferences.
The majority that I have talked to are in favor of keeping the current blend rather than joining the current 6A with the top 16 5A, etc. all the way down.
Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 01:09:06 pm
On what I was looking at AAA already moved the private schools where they wanted them.
LRCA would be 5A
PA, Subiaco and Shiloh would be 4A
CAC, Episcopal, Baptist Prep would be 3A
I don't believe the multiplier is in effect anymore. I'm almost certain that privates with an enrollment of more than 80 (maybe I'm wrong on that) automatically get bumped up the next class.
I'm for keeping the blend compared to what they are proposing. What's bad about keeping the way things are and then have a separate 4A and 3A state tournament?
Quote from: VHSCoach2 on May 15, 2017, 01:16:34 pm
This new proposal, that hopefully falls by the wayside in the end, has me, and many other coaches that I know, changing tune on the blended conferences.
The majority that I have talked to are in favor of keeping the current blend rather than joining the current 6A with the top 16 5A, etc. all the way down.
I would much rather keep the blended conferences than the new proposal. It would be really tough for the 5a schools to compete with Benton, Jonesborro, Russellville, and Siloam.
Quote from: razorback on May 15, 2017, 09:39:52 am
There is not a girls team in 4A that can touch them.....
My thought exactly.
I've heard a rumor of a proposal to change the way yellow cards are handled. If I heard correctly, the proposal is that if a player is shown a yellow card, they will no longer be mandated to leave the pitch.
I'd be in favor of this change if it happened.
In high school, it seems pointless to make them leave the field when they mostly just go right back in.
Playing tough teams makes you better, roll the bean footage and imitate the plays and moves. Playing equal teams may not help the team or individual get better. One member commented about how their team doesn't pass well, drop the ball back and work it back to the defense or goalie, cross the ball for a shot on goal. They see a better team and get beat, you learn from it. Crying to the AAA is the lazy way out and working with kids to improve their game. We will see changes in the teams as kids graduate or move away or drop out of soccer for something else. No team is unbeatable and loosing is not a bad thing if you learn from it and improve your game, don't teach the kids to give up.