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When do we lose respect for the Referee?

Started by Rebel82, October 03, 2013, 02:46:38 pm

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SantaHog

It may be coincidence, but it's funny how often I see holding being called in certain circumstances on the visiting team.  For instance, the first play the visiting team is on offense after scoring a touchdown the previous possession is almost a guaranteed holding call, especially if the visiting team held the home team to a three and out. 

Another coincidence is how many games you can count a total of three holding calls being made the entire game.  It's almost like that is a game management technique taught to officiating crews. 

Lions84

You see all sorts of things .   We had a coach who got cross wired with the Zebra Crews and for the next 2 years we got strange calls against us at Home.  We had one guy who stood 10 yards behind the offense and stood there and let us score 4 TD's only to pull his hankie and drop it when they crossed the goal line.   I thought our fans were going to riot and storm the field.

He called holding all 4 times.

The Future

Off the current topic being debated, but still about questiony refs.

It was either the Greenwood Southside or Greenwood Conway game of 2012. I was on the sidelines those 2 games. I can't remember which one it was though.

On a kickoff, Greenwood was flagged for a penalty ( holding most likely but can't remember for sure). So the ref announced Greenwood penalty. Coach Jones and Coach Young both were tryin to get the refs attention. Finally they asked him which number it was. After a couple times asking, the ref closest said 83. Young said "83? 83 is not on the field!" Ref stood there.

Innocent mistake of numbers? Or not?

72113

More than likely an innocent mistake.  It happens.  There are a lot of moving pieces on a kickoff so it's not hard to mistake or miss a number but still see the infraction.  I'm not excusing it because if the official is going to throw the flag he needs to be able to describe the penalty to his white hat and know who committed it.  However, if the official was going to deliberately try to change the outcome of the game I would imagine he would be much more careful about it.  The eye in the sky doesn't lie and the officials know it. 

Rulesman

Quote from: The Future on May 19, 2014, 09:05:14 am
On a kickoff, Greenwood was flagged for a penalty ( holding most likely but can't remember for sure). So the ref announced Greenwood penalty. Coach Jones and Coach Young both were tryin to get the refs attention. Finally they asked him which number it was. After a couple times asking, the ref closest said 83. Young said "83? 83 is not on the field!"
If you don't know the number, don't guess at the number. Goes to credibility. Tell the coach you didn't get a number and move on.

Jack1990

Quote from: Rulesman on May 19, 2014, 12:07:09 pm
Quote from: The Future on May 19, 2014, 09:05:14 am
On a kickoff, Greenwood was flagged for a penalty ( holding most likely but can't remember for sure). So the ref announced Greenwood penalty. Coach Jones and Coach Young both were tryin to get the refs attention. Finally they asked him which number it was. After a couple times asking, the ref closest said 83. Young said "83? 83 is not on the field!"
If you don't know the number, don't guess at the number. Goes to credibility. Tell the coach you didn't get a number and move on.
Absolutely!

+1

Busman

"After a couple times asking, the ref closest said 83. Young said "83? 83 is not on the field!" Ref stood there. "

True story. SAU Coach upset at me for calling holding on his tight end on a sweep. "What number?" 83 I said. "83's not on the field now!" Yes he was, coach.  'No, he wasn't. We were in Jets and he isn't in that formation." Fortunately, we got copies of the video and sure enough, 83 blocks down on the linebacker and tackles him. Mistake, dishonesty, or saving face?

Lions84

The Truth is we expect the Zebra crew to be perfect every down every game and it is not possible.  Still 30 + years of watching HS Football I seen enough bad ones or in a few bad crews to understand why some folks always has the Tomahawk out after the Officials.
A few years ago in a TX playoff game film proves the man was 1 yard short of the first down and the side judge picks up the football and sets it at the 1st down marker.  He got fired for it but it cost us a State Title.

george7244

Quote from: Lions84 on June 02, 2014, 11:13:13 am
The Truth is we expect the Zebra crew to be perfect every down every game and it is not possible.  Still 30 + years of watching HS Football I seen enough bad ones or in a few bad crews to understand why some folks always has the Tomahawk out after the Officials.
A few years ago in a TX playoff game film proves the man was 1 yard short of the first down and the side judge picks up the football and sets it at the 1st down marker.  He got fired for it but it cost us a State Title.
curious as to who fired him

Lions84

Quote from: george7244 on June 02, 2014, 12:35:39 pm
Quote from: Lions84 on June 02, 2014, 11:13:13 am
The Truth is we expect the Zebra crew to be perfect every down every game and it is not possible.  Still 30 + years of watching HS Football I seen enough bad ones or in a few bad crews to understand why some folks always has the Tomahawk out after the Officials.
A few years ago in a TX playoff game film proves the man was 1 yard short of the first down and the side judge picks up the football and sets it at the 1st down marker.  He got fired for it but it cost us a State Title.
curious as to who fired him

TEXAS UIL sent a letter to the official association and told them he was banned for officiating UIL football games.

george7244

dang thats tough unless they ruled it intentional

Missco

That's not tough..Should be done more often...How is that tough...He cost a team a state title...

george7244

If it was intentional i might agree but if it was a mistake thats too harsh. Its a game played by humans and its a game officiated by humans. If you have never made a mistake throw the first stone. If you have look how stupid you sound.

Missco

Not stupid the truth...I have made many mistakes and always admit when I am wrong...You are right players, refs, coaches, are all human and make mistakes...Coaches get fired all the time. Sounds like the association deemed it bad enough...

george7244

I did not say he did not deserve to be fired unless it was unintentional

Rulesman

Quote from: george7244 on July 19, 2014, 03:52:08 pm
I did not say he did not deserve to be fired unless it was unintentional
Huh? ???

george7244

Take the un out and make it intentional. A mistake on my part. Maybe i should be fired

cuckoobird

I agree that people make mistakes as do officials, the only problem is when an official makes one and they know it was the wrong call, have you ever seen them reverse it?

george7244

Actually i have. I have seen them have a conference and reverse the call.

blueandwhite

Every call an official makes 50% of the people at that game will not agree with it.

Lions84

The Film shows the player was tackled a yard short.  The first guy marked to ball properly when another one walks up picks it up and moves it up field to ensure a first down. 

Lions84

We need better fan education and some crews need to be busted up and reorganized.  I try my best to respect the Officals since I know they are human just like me and make mistakes but some times the sheer number of bad calls in a game on both sides that I blow my top.

arreferee

Quote from: Lions84 on September 08, 2014, 12:52:49 pm
We need better fan education and some crews need to be busted up and reorganized.  I try my best to respect the Officals since I know they are human just like me and make mistakes but some times the sheer number of bad calls in a game on both sides that I blow my top.

It will never happen, but the best thing that could be done for fan education is to have all levels use the same set of rules.  There are too many fans out there that get all of their rules knowledge from listening to the announcers on Saturdays and Sundays (which is not a good idea if you are trying to learn the rules) and then bring that information to the game on Friday night. 

Uncle Ivan


Lions84

When we see this.  2 home games  20 flags for 200 yards for the Home team and 2/3 of all flags thrown by the Visitor side Side Judge. 
2 different crews and same results.   Also the Visitors got less than 6 total and 40 yards.   It is driving me as a fan nuts. 

Busman

Why is that on the officials? Are they supposed to keep a secret count and make sure there are exactly the same number of penalties and yards assessed on each team? Or are they supposed to judge each play seperately and on it's own merits? Do they have a limit of no more than six flags per game? 

I was working a LR Parkview game and was on the visitor sideline. I had flags on four plays, including two that called back touchdowns, because the Parkview end was holding (tackling) the outside linebacker on every sweep to his side.  I reported the infraction AND the number each time. Was I supposed to ignore it after the first one? Was I not supposed to call it because I was on the visitor's sideline? Was I supposed to let it go because my check came from Parkview? How was it my fault it cost them 40 yards and two TD's?

Lions84

Quote from: Busman on September 22, 2014, 01:48:06 pm
Why is that on the officials? Are they supposed to keep a secret count and make sure there are exactly the same number of penalties and yards assessed on each team? Or are they supposed to judge each play seperately and on it's own merits? Do they have a limit of no more than six flags per game? 

I was working a LR Parkview game and was on the visitor sideline. I had flags on four plays, including two that called back touchdowns, because the Parkview end was holding (tackling) the outside linebacker on every sweep to his side.  I reported the infraction AND the number each time. Was I supposed to ignore it after the first one? Was I not supposed to call it because I was on the visitor's sideline? Was I supposed to let it go because my check came from Parkview? How was it my fault it cost them 40 yards and two TD's?

I can't say about you and your crew I am calling out the 2 visitor side judges on the visitor's side.   I sorry but when I watch the game and get to watch the field and out of a 4-5 man crew I see just 1 guy flagging us it raised a red flag for me.  And it calls the whole crew into question cause it looks BAD even if the Side Judge is doing his job because I know Holding can be called every single play in a Jr High or HS football game. I more opinionated cause I have a Texas HS Official who teaches science at our HS to run this type on nonsense by first before I bring it up here and he agrees it doesn't pass his smell test either.

Busman

Any official that would "agrees it doesn't pass his smell test either" is suspect himself IMHO.

Rulesman

Quote from: Lions84 on September 22, 2014, 02:21:39 pm
Quote from: Busman on September 22, 2014, 01:48:06 pm
Why is that on the officials? Are they supposed to keep a secret count and make sure there are exactly the same number of penalties and yards assessed on each team? Or are they supposed to judge each play seperately and on it's own merits? Do they have a limit of no more than six flags per game? 

I was working a LR Parkview game and was on the visitor sideline. I had flags on four plays, including two that called back touchdowns, because the Parkview end was holding (tackling) the outside linebacker on every sweep to his side.  I reported the infraction AND the number each time. Was I supposed to ignore it after the first one? Was I not supposed to call it because I was on the visitor's sideline? Was I supposed to let it go because my check came from Parkview? How was it my fault it cost them 40 yards and two TD's?

I can't say about you and your crew I am calling out the 2 visitor side judges on the visitor's side.   I sorry but when I watch the game and get to watch the field and out of a 4-5 man crew I see just 1 guy flagging us it raised a red flag for me.  And it calls the whole crew into question cause it looks BAD even if the Side Judge is doing his job because I know Holding can be called every single play in a Jr High or HS football game. I more opinionated cause I have a Texas HS Official who teaches science at our HS to run this type on nonsense by first before I bring it up here and he agrees it doesn't pass his smell test either.
There is no Side Judge in a 4 or 5 man crew. You just failed Part I of the smell test.

Lions84

September 25, 2014, 02:26:32 pm #79 Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 02:31:42 pm by Lions84
Well I call him that because he lines himself up with the LOS and follows the play down the visitors side line of the field.

http://football.refs.org/mechanics/basic5.html  He is the visitor side Line Judge or Linesman, I just grew up calling them the "Side line guys.

Bayou Bully

Quote from: george7244 on July 19, 2014, 02:16:43 pm
If it was intentional i might agree but if it was a mistake thats too harsh. Its a game played by humans and its a game officiated by humans. If you have never made a mistake throw the first stone. If you have look how stupid you sound.

Coaches get fired all the time for making mistakes, doubt many coaches go into a season or game to intentionally lose... When officials face the same consequences maybe they'll be given a little more slack. They make as much or more money as most coaches do, same rules should apply to both

george7244

Quote from: Bayou Bully on October 04, 2014, 10:40:32 pm
Quote from: george7244 on July 19, 2014, 02:16:43 pm
If it was intentional i might agree but if it was a mistake thats too harsh. Its a game played by humans and its a game officiated by humans. If you have never made a mistake throw the first stone. If you have look how stupid you sound.

Coaches get fired all the time for making mistakes, doubt many coaches go into a season or game to intentionally lose... When officials face the same consequences maybe they'll be given a little more slack. They make as much or more money as most coaches do, same rules should apply to both.    Where in the world did you come up with this salary comparison. This is absolutely ludicrous. I guess you believe an official has to have an armed guard with him when he carries his check to the bank

george7244

Quote from: george7244 on October 05, 2014, 07:26:39 am
Quote from: Bayou Bully on October 04, 2014, 10:40:32 pm
Quote from: george7244 on July 19, 2014, 02:16:43 pm
If it was intentional i might agree but if it was a mistake thats too harsh. Its a game played by humans and its a game officiated by humans. If you have never made a mistake throw the first stone. If you have look how stupid you sound.

Coaches get fired all the time for making mistakes, doubt many coaches go into a season or game to intentionally lose... When officials face the same consequences maybe they'll be given a little more slack. They make as much or more money as most coaches do, same rules should apply to both.   
.    I would like to know where you get your salary comparisons.  I don't ever remember having to have an armed guard with me when i carried my check to the bank

Bayou Bully

Coaches need armed guards to carry checks to the bank? Come on

george7244

I can promise you that coaches make considerably more coaching that officials do officiating.  In Arkansas if an official makes $1500 in a year he has worked a lot of jr. high, sub varsity, and varsity football games. In Texas they make a little more because officials are paid by the gate receipts with a guaranteed amount if the gate does not meet the minimum.  If i am wrong about Texas then i will stand corrected as i have not officiated a game there since 1991


Bayou Bully

Most coaches in Arkansas don't make 1500 for coaching... Last time I checked if an official works 3 nights a week it's a bit more than 1500

Rulesman

Quote from: Bayou Bully on October 05, 2014, 11:44:29 am
Last time I checked if an official works 3 nights a week it's a bit more than 1500
300 bucks a night working HS games? What planet do you live on?

Bayou Bully

50 X 3= 150
150 X 10= 1500

I live on a planet that knows how to count.

Officials make more than $50 a night, two years ago I made $85-115 a night depending on how many games and location.
If you average $100 a night 3 nights a week that's considerably more than $1500.

george7244

$100 per night x 3 equals $1500 is either new math or you smoked too many left handed cigarettes

Bayou Bully

3 games a week. JH, JV, varsity....don't forget the 7th and 8th grade games
$100 a night average...that's $300 a week on any planet
10 weeks in a season...this equals more than $1500.

blue4hire

Wish I could average $100 a night for junior high and jv football.

72113

Quote from: blue4hire on October 05, 2014, 04:34:03 pm
Wish I could average $100 a night for junior high and jv football.
No kidding!  Where are these high-paying games!

george7244

Where is it that coaches make only $1500 a year

Bayou Bully

Call your assigners to find out where you can make more money is only suggestion I can give you. Last year I officiated was 2011, averaged calling 3 nights a week and made just under $3000. I didn't do it for the love of the game , I wanted some new toys so I did it strictly for the money. Pretty good money for 10 weeks work I thought.
Coaches get paid a stipend for football, most don't make $1500. Head coaches and some coordinators will make more but they aren't in the majority.

sevenof400

Quote from: Bayou Bully on October 05, 2014, 11:44:29 am
Most coaches in Arkansas don't make 1500 for coaching... Last time I checked if an official works 3 nights a week it's a bit more than 1500

The coaches make a lot more than $1,500.

Click here for a recent article on a look at the 7A.

And while 7A is not representative of all the classifications, you will find that most coaches get a schedule reduction (if they teach classes at all) and a considerable addition to their salary.

All of this is available as public info on a school's website. 

sevenof400

And take a look here as well.  There was a good thread on this previously on FF. 

Bayou Bully

7A west head coaches are paid well but they represent a very small percent of HS football coaches in Arkansas...like 8 of over 800. There's about 190 schools with football, those head coaches are probably paid more than $1500 for football. If the schools average 4 assistants then there's around 800 total. There are some assistant making more than $1500, but many are not.  NONE of them only work football for 10 weeks for that $1500...and most officials that work only 3 nights a week will make more than $1500. Good coaches and good officials are under paid just like the bad ones are over paid...difference is bad officials have ZERO accountability held over them. 

arreferee

Quote from: Bayou Bully on October 05, 2014, 09:17:07 pm
7A west head coaches are paid well but they represent a very small percent of HS football coaches in Arkansas...like 8 of over 800. There's about 190 schools with football, those head coaches are probably paid more than $1500 for football. If the schools average 4 assistants then there's around 800 total. There are some assistant making more than $1500, but many are not.  NONE of them only work football for 10 weeks for that $1500...and most officials that work only 3 nights a week will make more than $1500. Good coaches and good officials are under paid just like the bad ones are over paid...difference is bad officials have ZERO accountability held over them. 

My father-in-law was a football coach for around 26 years in small schools in Arkansas (mostly 2A in the poorest parts of the state).  Even when he retired about 10 years ago, he and all the coaches on staff were making more than $1500 for coaching football (their stipend was more than $1500 per year). 

If you want to have more accountability, go for it.  When you fire every official who you think made a mistake, you can effectively cancel football because there will be no officials left.  Every official will make mistakes at every level.  I bet you even made a mistake or two when you officiated.

Also, I've never heard of a coach being fired for making one mistake...unless of course that mistake had something to do with ethics or the law.  Officials are given background checks to ensure people with problems with the law can't officiate.

Bayou Bully

I've made lots of mistakes, the biggest is having a battle of wits with unarmed people...
Wasn't asking to fire any official that made a mistake... ANY accountability would be nice, all this you can cancel football is a moot point because you have no clue what would happen.

Rulesman

October 07, 2014, 09:48:46 pm #99 Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 09:52:03 pm by Rulesman
Quote from: Bayou Bully on October 07, 2014, 04:53:19 pm
Wasn't asking to fire any official that made a mistake...


Try reading YOUR reply (#80 above) from 3 days ago. "Coaches get fired all the time for making mistakes... When officials face the same consequences..."


Your credibility is just like Elvis...gone from the building.



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