How do you turn a 5A football program around?

[Grond]

How do you take a 5A football program that has been not been winning, and make it competitive?

How do you make a team that is winning 1 or "none" a season, go to where they win 3 or 4 games conference games?

Personally, I think turning an 8th place team into a 4th place team is a greater challenge than taking a 3rd place team to 1st place.

Do you know examples of what has worked? 

[sevenof400]

You're about to see a similar experiment in Vilonia.

[The Future]

I think it is possible to turn any team in any direction. 1 to 8 or 8 to 1. It will just take more time with some.

You can break it up into 4 categorys:
Coaching- knows football, raises not only football players but young respectable men, is willing to put in the effort to be the best, has the ability and desire to want to bring out the best in his players

Players- each must be willing to put in the effort to want to be the best as well, must also have the desire to not only show but to improve their best that the coach is bringing out in them, must have the ability to play as a team. It don't matter if youre the best of the 22 players on the field. If you can't be a team player, youre team won't be the best on the field. Having a large team helps with depth and injuries and substituting as well.

Fan bases- I know its obvious that the better teams have the bigger fan bases because they wanna be a fan of a winning team. Your 2 or 3 win teams don't have hundreds of fans every Friday night. But if the fans would show love and support and cheer on that mid teir or bottomfeeder team like they would if they were a power team, then that will give those players a ton of motivation and happiness and a desire to want to play better.

Tradition- One of those intangables. Tradition speaks loudly. Everyone knows those teams with rich tradition. It gets in the players, the coaches, and the fans minds. I'm not saying its enough to bother them or make them scared or anything. But if youre an average team, youre gonna feel a whole lot better going up a nobody team than you would going up a Bentonville, Pine Bluff, Greenwood, or Pulaski Academy.

I don't wanna say if you have these 4 qualities, you will have a great team. I'm saying these are 4 qualities that I dare say all power teams share.

I know, actually footballwise speaking, that tradition and fanbase isn't as important as coaching and players. They are the ones actually doing the footballing (made up a word). So football is 100% coaching and 100% players. They work hand in hand to create the best team possible for that school. You can take the best coach but if his players don't want to be the best, then they won't be. Take Tice at Huntsville. And if you have all the talent in the world but a coach who doesn't know what he's doing or doesn't care or want to be the best, then it won't work either. Take 2012 Arkansas Razorbacks.


In your scenario of turning a 8th place to to a 4th place tougher than a 3rd into a 1st place, I agree. But I don't think its tougher by a large margin. They are both gonna be tough. That team in 8th place every year is there for a reason. Same reason that the top 1 or 2 teams are 1 and 2 every year. Getting that last place nobody team to get up and turn into a 5 or 6 regular season win team and a 4th seed playoff spot is gonna be tough in its own right. But taking that 3rd place team to 1st? That will only work if there is more than 2 great teams in the conference. In the Central its impossible because the gap between PA and the others. In the East, its more possible. Wynne and Batesville are your top 2. I know Blytheville this past year made the jump. But this year we will see if it was genuine or a spike good year. So taking that consistent 3rd place mid tier team up to the first place in conference year after year is a challenge in its own right as well.

[Jimbo Morphis]

Recruiting

[Missco]

Old man hit the nail on the head, lol.

[Chief_Osceola™]

I think it is possible to turn any team in any direction. 1 to 8 or 8 to 1. It will just take more time with some.

You can break it up into 4 categorys:
Coaching- knows football, raises not only football players but young respectable men, is willing to put in the effort to be the best, has the ability and desire to want to bring out the best in his players

Players- each must be willing to put in the effort to want to be the best as well, must also have the desire to not only show but to improve their best that the coach is bringing out in them, must have the ability to play as a team. It don't matter if youre the best of the 22 players on the field. If you can't be a team player, youre team won't be the best on the field. Having a large team helps with depth and injuries and substituting as well.

Fan bases- I know its obvious that the better teams have the bigger fan bases because they wanna be a fan of a winning team. Your 2 or 3 win teams don't have hundreds of fans every Friday night. But if the fans would show love and support and cheer on that mid teir or bottomfeeder team like they would if they were a power team, then that will give those players a ton of motivation and happiness and a desire to want to play better.

Tradition- One of those intangables. Tradition speaks loudly. Everyone knows those teams with rich tradition. It gets in the players, the coaches, and the fans minds. I'm not saying its enough to bother them or make them scared or anything. But if youre an average team, youre gonna feel a whole lot better going up a nobody team than you would going up a Bentonville, Pine Bluff, Greenwood, or Pulaski Academy.

I don't wanna say if you have these 4 qualities, you will have a great team. I'm saying these are 4 qualities that I dare say all power teams share.

I know, actually footballwise speaking, that tradition and fanbase isn't as important as coaching and players. They are the ones actually doing the footballing (made up a word). So football is 100% coaching and 100% players. They work hand in hand to create the best team possible for that school. You can take the best coach but if his players don't want to be the best, then they won't be. Take Tice at Huntsville. And if you have all the talent in the world but a coach who doesn't know what he's doing or doesn't care or want to be the best, then it won't work either. Take 2012 Arkansas Razorbacks.


In your scenario of turning a 8th place to to a 4th place tougher than a 3rd into a 1st place, I agree. But I don't think its tougher by a large margin. They are both gonna be tough. That team in 8th place every year is there for a reason. Same reason that the top 1 or 2 teams are 1 and 2 every year. Getting that last place nobody team to get up and turn into a 5 or 6 regular season win team and a 4th seed playoff spot is gonna be tough in its own right. But taking that 3rd place team to 1st? That will only work if there is more than 2 great teams in the conference. In the Central its impossible because the gap between PA and the others. In the East, its more possible. Wynne and Batesville are your top 2. I know Blytheville this past year made the jump. But this year we will see if it was genuine or a spike good year. So taking that consistent 3rd place mid tier team up to the first place in conference year after year is a challenge in its own right as well.

I believe this to be the most important.  The culture in the locker room can win, or lose, as many games as good/bad coaching. 

[purpleswag]

How has nobody said talent? Yes, you can lose with good players but it's a lot harder.

A few studs will make any coach look like a genius, but if your school doesn't compete in anything I don't know what you could expect from even a good coach.

[jazdill]

very easy question to answer....coaching!!!! the coaching affects every aspect from the number of kids playing to the attitude the fan base has about their team. kids can see through BS just as adults can. if the fan base and the kids do not believe in the coach and his style of football it will never work. just because a coach can be great at the x's and o's don't mean he can coach a "high school" football team. take nick saban for example arguably the greatest college coach of all time. he was not very good in the nfl. nfl takes a totally different kind of coach. just as high school takes a very different style coach..... yes I know what gus and hugh have done. there are exceptions such as pete carroll...the second time around. another example of how high school is different than ncaa. there are GREAT high school football players every season that are not college recruits. most of the college recruits are not as good as these GREAT high school players are on friday nights, just as those GREAT high school players would not be as good as those recruits are on Sat. they may be to small or slow among many things to be developed into a ncaa football player. regardless they get it done on friday nights because the game is different than on Saturdays. the great high school programs don't hang their hats on who they sent to the next level or care about who they think they developed into college prospects. Booneville is a great example, over the years they have not had very many play at the next level and next to none play D1 much less major D1 but they have won a bunch and beat a lot of those teams that had that caliber of athlete. notice a few sentences back I said some coaches  "think they develop" these boys into D1 athletes. plz do not take this the wrong way, but news flash if the kid is big, fast and strong enough good chance he would have been recruited to the next level even if he was coached by someone else!!!!!!! great coaches adapt to the kids they have and what those kids do best. how often do you hear this at the end of a good teams season that was loaded with stud seniors, everything  you hear and read says that team will be in rebuilding mode this year but lord and behold by the end of the season they are in the mix of things come playoffs, good coaching just don't ride the waive of above average talent they figure out what works even if it is not what they really "like" to do offensively or defensively. coaching effects everything, even so called recruiting. kids want to play for good coaches....that coach does not have to recruit his coaching style does that for him because he wins!!!! why does Alabama pay saban so much? because he is worth it and they remember just a few years back what it was like when they did not have great coaches. they were still Alabama , difference was the coaching!!!!!!!
   Average or below average coaches wait for that waive of talent. They talk about what is in the water making the kids better football players at the successful schools. They complain because they feel like the should be in a easier conf were they could compete better. They will talk about building character is more important than winning(those winning coaches are doing a pretty good job at building character also lol). They blame the kids. My favorite line by an excuse making coach is " I just aint got nothing to work with this year" The coaches administration also has a part, which is another rant in itself but a great coach will go down the road or would have never took said job if the administration was not what he needed to win. why do you think saban choose Alabama?
  I have yet to see one excuse of why a football team fails that could not be changed with coaching.(as I said earlier administration can have an effect, but a great coach would not put up with it or would be gone because he is going to win one way or another). pretty much all jobs are if you do not do satisfactory job you get replaced. Except the teaching profession for some reason they are not held accountable. coaches/teachers preach to kids about holding their selves accountable but school administrations do not hold their teachers/coaches accountable? And yes a coach is a teacher at most schools in the high school level...another difference from HS/NCAA.

but heck.... even those programs that lose a lot give out awards at the end of the year. said team sucks but my boy got to play a lot so its ok. the coach is a really great guy and a Christian man. our cheerleaders and band are the best. these quotes should sound familiar to a fan base that accepts losing. this kind of fan base will never have a great coach because 1) a great coach would never have this kind of fan base 2)great coaches are usually a bit politically incorrect, will not play said kid just because momma is a teacher and daddy is on the school board (a sissified fan base can not tolerate a coach that wants to win)

I will promise that the type of fan base you have will reflect the type of coach you have, the type of administration you have and the type of athletes your school puts on the field. So to wrap up coaching is the most important by far...so choose wisely instead of trying to be so freaking politically correct!!!!

[Intelligentsia]

Very good post, jazdill.  It wasn't short, and it wasn't pretty, but you are spot on.  I might add that it takes a coaching staff.  It may take an exceptional new head coach a couple years (or more) to put together a staff that reflects his personality.  Again, VERY good post!!

[incogneto]

There are a lot of things besides this answer.  The two biggest are taking strength and conditioning seriously and have a real system of accountability. 

[sevenof400]

There is a lot to address here, but this:

...
  I have yet to see one excuse of why a football team fails that could not be changed with coaching.(as I said earlier administration can have an effect, but a great coach would not put up with it or would be gone because he is going to win one way or another). pretty much all jobs are if you do not do satisfactory job you get replaced. Except the teaching profession for some reason they are not held accountable. coaches/teachers preach to kids about holding their selves accountable but school administrations do not hold their teachers/coaches accountable? And yes a coach is a teacher at most schools in the high school level...another difference from HS/NCAA.

seriously weakens your argument.

[busterdouglas]

I would agree with 7.  Would you call Jerry Clay a good coach?  I would call him an excellent coach with a staff that does a great job and they won 4 games this year.  I wouldn't blame that on coaching.  Coaches can elevate the ability of the talent they have, can make programs better.. set them up for success when the talent is there.  But to quote an old saying I believe to be true.... "you can't coach a mule to win the Kentucky Derby."

[OB11]

There is a lot to address here, but this:

seriously weakens your argument.

Where to begin with this...

Simply put, name another profession where a manager (teacher) would be evaluated based on the performance of employees (students/players) that they had no input whatsoever in hiring or choosing.  Coaches and teachers interact with and deal with students that they do not choose, cannot fire, and have no control over their home life.  I agree with a lot of the things you said but evaluating teachers/coaches is so much different than evaluating employees in other professions.

[Grond]

My junior high/high school football experience went something like this:

Junior High
9th grade :  0-9

High School
10th grade :  5-5
11th grade :  5-5
12th grade :  10-2

The same group of kids that went 0-9 in the 9th grade went 10-2 their senior year. WHY?    So, started thinking about some of the aspects of our high school football program:

CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF PLAYER GAME PERFORMANCE
We were graded every game, same as a school grade. If you got a "90" or above, then you got a helmet sticker. Winning a game did not guarantee a sticker. This allowed every player to see where they stood in the coach's opinion.

EVERY PLAYER IMPORTANT
There was a real sentiment that "we are not leaving this practice field until EVERYONE gets it right". If you were the 3rd string defensive tackle, you might have to stay after practice with the coach to work on something you got wrong.

JV games were just as important as Friday night. In fact, everyone that was NOT a senior had to dress out. And everyone played. It seemed coaching was more intense at the JV games than during the Friday games. The starting running back might be playing safety on the JV team, but he was there.

STATISTICAL ANALYSIS DURING A GAME
When we were on offense, we kept running totals of:
- Plays called and yards gained.
- What player on opposing defense was making tackles. (Kept a "tackle chart" on the opposing team.)

When we were on defense, we kept similar charts on which of our players made tackles, and where the opposing offense was running.

So, after we came off the field, we would hear: "#38 has made 4 of 7 tackles! Who's man is that?" Get it fixed, and get it fixed NOW.

COMPETITION FOR POSITIONS
I went to a 5A school with 36 players. If you were a starter, and you had a bad practice, you were coming out. Your replacement might not be as good as you, but you were held accountable to your ability and effort.

---------------

The result of this environment is that you got better. You didn't always win, but you learned to improve.

We go on about "winning", but the fact is that someone has to win, and someone HAS to lose. There is going to be a 1st place team, ..... and there has to be an 8th place team. The challenge is developing an environment where young men can learn to improve themselves.

[nuttinbuthogs]

I would agree with 7.  Would you call Jerry Clay a good coach?  I would call him an excellent coach with a staff that does a great job and they won 4 games this year.  I wouldn't blame that on coaching.  Coaches can elevate the ability of the talent they have, can make programs better.. set them up for success when the talent is there.  But to quote an old saying I believe to be true.... "you can't coach a mule to win the Kentucky Derby."

This is a really good analysis.  There are more examples of coaches who win most of the time and then have that one or two bad seasons.  I can remember coaches losing at Southside and bouncing back the next year.  Teams not doing so well when at Pine Bluff, then coming back under the same coach, Even Malzahn got out of Benton quickly some years ago when it didn't look right.  So what happened?  Theguy there forgot how to coach?  I bet he had a talent gap, or young players that were not ready?  Some schools don't have the work ethic, the parents don't support the coaches, the admin is at odds with coaches and on and on. Some times there is not much physical talent and speed, strength and size are very important to football regardless of what offense or defense you run.  Bigger, Faster, Stronger always helps. To say a good coach can always fix it is not true, you have to have a great attitude from players and to get that you better have parents that are supportive in every sense.  I would be curious to see how many of the really good coaches have turned multiple historically losing programs around. 

[sevenof400]

And there is a point at which any coach, even Paul William himself, would have to have SOME level of talent to work with.  There are some towns that just don't have an abundance of football talent in their town for a few years.   

[nuttinbuthogs]

Talent with good coaching will win, Talent with poor coaching will win some, No Talent with a good coach will win once in a while, maybe? No talent with no coaching will win almost never, but a blind squirrel will occasionally find a nut in the woods.

[Leopard]

Take a look at De Queen. Went to winning 0 or 1 games a year to I believe 4-6 this year and steady improvement in off season.

[nuttinbuthogs]

Take a look at De Queen. Went to winning 0 or 1 games a year to I believe 4-6 this year and steady improvement in off season.

Not sure about the point here?  5-25 over 3 years, 21-49 for 7 years before that.  Is this a case of improvement or one good group.  It's hard to see unless you see improvement over several years. It will take another couple of years to judge the improvement.

[Okieback]

There is a lot to address here, but this:

seriously weakens your argument.

Injuries
And then said administration and parents don't realize that and the coach is gone in 2 years or less.

[Dayton Kitchens]

It is basically no different than turning around a program at any level aside from the fact that in a 5A program you're going to have a substantial staff and assembling the proper staff is a major step not present in small programs.

[nuttinbuthogs]

Wouldn't all situations have their own specific problems?  Are you saying that small schools don't have the staff problem?

[incogneto]

This is a really good analysis.  There are more examples of coaches who win most of the time and then have that one or two bad seasons.  I can remember coaches losing at Southside and bouncing back the next year.  Teams not doing so well when at Pine Bluff, then coming back under the same coach, Even Malzahn got out of Benton quickly some years ago when it didn't look right.  So what happened?  Theguy there forgot how to coach?  I bet he had a talent gap, or young players that were not ready?  Some schools don't have the work ethic, the parents don't support the coaches, the admin is at odds with coaches and on and on. Some times there is not much physical talent and speed, strength and size are very important to football regardless of what offense or defense you run.  Bigger, Faster, Stronger always helps. To say a good coach can always fix it is not true, you have to have a great attitude from players and to get that you better have parents that are supportive in every sense.  I would be curious to see how many of the really good coaches have turned multiple historically losing programs around.

Sometimes a school has hard working kids and coaches and an administration to match but the conference they are in is so far ahead of them they don't stand a chance of winning it.  Plus some schools are bussing kids in from as far as 30 miles away.  Try getting those kids to football practice on a consistent basis.  There are all kinds of excuses if you are looking for excuses on why it's ok to lose. 

[Dayton Kitchens]

Wouldn't all situations have their own specific problems?  Are you saying that small schools don't have the staff problem?

A fair number of small schools you might have the head coach who also is the OC and the boys basketball coach who is the DC and a third coach of another sport who handles special teams.

This is not the same as a program with a head coach who then has five or more football only assistants.

[HorseFeathers]

A fair number of small schools you might have the head coach who also is the OC and the boys basketball coach who is the DC and a third coach of another sport who handles special teams.

This is not the same as a program with a head coach who then has five or more football only assistants.

Saying they actually have 3 coaches....have seen 3a schools with only 2

[sevenof400]

Sometimes a school has hard working kids and coaches and an administration to match but the conference they are in is so far ahead of them they don't stand a chance of winning it.  Plus some schools are bussing kids in from as far as 30 miles away.  Try getting those kids to football practice on a consistent basis.  There are all kinds of excuses if you are looking for excuses on why it's ok to lose.

I do think there are some communities who have to face the reality of their situation and accept that in some cases, they will be so far behind the 8 ball (so to speak) that the likelihood of competing in the conference they are currently in is very low. 

A really good illustration of this was Huntsville during their recent time in the 5A West.  Meaning no disrespect at all to Huntsville, the reality of their situation made it almost impossible for them to succeed during their time in the conference.  The geography of the Huntsville school district makes for some very long odds of having enough athletes to compete in football to begin with and when you compete against other 5A West teams existing in larger cities/towns, the odds really began to stack up against Huntsville before the even moved up to 5A.

I think Vilonia has a similar problem at present - but not from the perspective of geography.  Vilonia is business poor compared to the other 5A West schools and business support with respect to football is an important component of a school's success.  Morrilton, Harrison, and Clarksville are all pretty much the schools of focus in their communities and counties.  Greenbrier's business has developed much more than Vilonia's.  Maumelle and LR Christian have the LR area from which to find business support.  Farmington has the Fayetteville area. 

There's not much that can be done to combat this until the town grows. 

Let me be clear - this is not the only factor that's causing Vilonia to have such a long dry run but it does significantly contribute to the problem. 

The reason I highlighted your point above is these factors exist and are significant.  You can't simply label them as excuses and summarily dismiss them as irrelevant.  They can be overcome, but it will take some out of the box thinking to make a school like Vilonia attractive to families who value the role of a sports program in their school.

[sevenof400]

Where to begin with this...

Simply put, name another profession where a manager (teacher) would be evaluated based on the performance of employees (students/players) that they had no input whatsoever in hiring or choosing.  Coaches and teachers interact with and deal with students that they do not choose, cannot fire, and have no control over their home life.  I agree with a lot of the things you said but evaluating teachers/coaches is so much different than evaluating employees in other professions.

Oliver,

I just realized I did not specifically address my objection to Jazdill's post that you addressed in your post.  Let me return to that post here as well:

... pretty much all jobs are if you do not do satisfactory job you get replaced. Except the teaching profession for some reason they are not held accountable. coaches/teachers preach to kids about holding their selves accountable but school administrations do not hold their teachers/coaches accountable? And yes a coach is a teacher at most schools in the high school level...another difference from HS/NCAA.

The idea of accountability is bounced around so much these days and this is what caught my attention.  Now admittedly, I'm about to spin us a bit off topic here, but how do you even hold a teacher or coach responsible for a student (or athlete)? 

Teachers and coaches are comparatively small influences in the lives of most kids - parents will always have the largest influence.  Why (or even how) can you hold a teacher or coach responsible for a student without somehow figuring the effect the parents play (or don't play) in the life of that child? 

I agree with your point Oliver - and it runs counter to what Jazdill said.

[incogneto]

I do think there are some communities who have to face the reality of their situation and accept that in some cases, they will be so far behind the 8 ball (so to speak) that the likelihood of competing in the conference they are currently in is very low. 

A really good illustration of this was Huntsville during their recent time in the 5A West.  Meaning no disrespect at all to Huntsville, the reality of their situation made it almost impossible for them to succeed during their time in the conference.  The geography of the Huntsville school district makes for some very long odds of having enough athletes to compete in football to begin with and when you compete against other 5A West teams existing in larger cities/towns, the odds really began to stack up against Huntsville before the even moved up to 5A.

I think Vilonia has a similar problem at present - but not from the perspective of geography.  Vilonia is business poor compared to the other 5A West schools and business support with respect to football is an important component of a school's success.  Morrilton, Harrison, and Clarksville are all pretty much the schools of focus in their communities and counties.  Greenbrier's business has developed much more than Vilonia's.  Maumelle and LR Christian have the LR area from which to find business support.  Farmington has the Fayetteville area. 

There's not much that can be done to combat this until the town grows. 

Let me be clear - this is not the only factor that's causing Vilonia to have such a long dry run but it does significantly contribute to the problem. 

The reason I highlighted your point above is these factors exist and are significant.  You can't simply label them as excuses and summarily dismiss them as irrelevant.  They can be overcome, but it will take some out of the box thinking to make a school like Vilonia attractive to families who value the role of a sports program in their school.

I don't see Vilonia as behind the 8 Ball.  Except for their upcoming sophomore class they have talent enough to compete.  They competed just fine in junior high and if they are held accountable in the weight room they will be able to compete in high school.  They need a coach that will hold them accountable and run a system that doesn't ask them to do things they cannot do.  I am not saying that these things are easy or simple tasks to accomplish either.  They are monumentally hard things to pull off.  That's why so few coaches are capable of doing this.  I am also not saying this will mean the talent won't cycle and VTown would compete for a state championship every year either.  However, they are capable of being in contention to win the conference every single year and competing for a state title when the talent swings upward.  Winning breeds winners and everyone loves a winner.  The talent problem would eventually solve itself.  Look at Warren.  They hardly even have a down cycle in talent any longer they have been winning for so long. 

[sevenof400]

I don't see Vilonia as behind the 8 Ball.  Except for their upcoming sophomore class they have talent enough to compete.  They competed just fine in junior high and if they are held accountable in the weight room they will be able to compete in high school.  They need a coach that will hold them accountable and run a system that doesn't ask them to do things they cannot do.  I am not saying that these things are easy or simple tasks to accomplish either.  They are monumentally hard things to pull off.  That's why so few coaches are capable of doing this.  I am also not saying this will mean the talent won't cycle and VTown would compete for a state championship every year either.  However, they are capable of being in contention to win the conference every single year and competing for a state title when the talent swings upward.  Winning breeds winners and everyone loves a winner.  The talent problem would eventually solve itself.  Look at Warren.  They hardly even have a down cycle in talent any longer they have been winning for so long.

There is something I do wonder about looking at Vilonia's record in junior high (in all sports).  A few years ago, when the Central Arkansas Junior High conference was formed, there were 16 teams playing in two conferences.  Vilonia was playing the Conway Jr Highs as well as NLR (if I recall correctly) among others.  The level of competition during that time was a definite assist in help Vilonia determine early on where their strengths and weaknesses were.

Fast forward to today, that conference has split up and most of Vilonia's jr high competition is now against Searcy, Beebe, Morrilton, Greenbrier, Clarksville and LR Christian (if I recall correctly).  That is certainly not the level of competition the Eagles used to face and I think that gives (or at least, can give) some false reads on how good (or bad) the Vilonia Jr High teams are.

In other words, I'd like to see Vilonia get out of that Jr High conference and go play some higher competition as I think it would help them down the line.  But I don't see that happening for any number of reasons - chief among them the availability of a conference and money. 

In the end, Incognito, I hope improvement comes soon for Vilonia. 

[nuttinbuthogs]

Oliver,

I just realized I did not specifically address my objection to Jazdill's post that you addressed in your post.  Let me return to that post here as well:

The idea of accountability is bounced around so much these days and this is what caught my attention.  Now admittedly, I'm about to spin us a bit off topic here, but how do you even hold a teacher or coach responsible for a student (or athlete)? 

Teachers and coaches are comparatively small influences in the lives of most kids - parents will always have the largest influence.  Why (or even how) can you hold a teacher or coach responsible for a student without somehow figuring the effect the parents play (or don't play) in the life of that child? 

I agree with your point Oliver - and it runs counter to what Jazdill said.

LOL!  At least a portion of this post sounds like parents who like to blame the failure of their children on the teachers and coaches rather than on the children or the parents.  Most teachers and coaches I ever knew were mostly dedicated and certainly held accountable by the school and community.  Maybe the poster in this case doesn't think you were held accountable unless you got fired from a position?  The really good athletic programs I have seen that did well most of the time seemed to have a winning attitude that included dedication, sacrifice, encouragement, a community that held the kids to a high standard and authentic support.  Then you have those parents that know everything, LOL.

[bigchief72455]

Then you have a situation like Paragould and GCT that exist in the same school areas. Occupying the same town.

[nuttinbuthogs]

How many students do each of those schools have?  Are you saying they would be better if there was only one school?

[Missco]

Lol, they still are two schools with 5A enrollments. Most places have districts close together. That argument really doesn't hold water.

[nuttinbuthogs]

That was my thinking.  So they are not good 5A schools and if one school they would be a not good 7A school?

[HorseFeathers]

That was my thinking.  So they are not good 5A schools and if one school they would be a not good 7A school?

Being the smallest 7a school wouldn't help them any

[nuttinbuthogs]

The point is that nothing is helping them lately.

[Grond]

The point is that nothing is helping them lately.

I respectfully disagree. By "them", I take that you are referring to Paragould. To review:

2012 - Paragould wins the last game, they are in the playoffs.

2014 - Paragould coaches made some tactical changes, resulting in a 4-6 season.

• Lost to Valley View 7-0
• Lost to Batesville 21-14. Had a TD pass called back. 
• Beat Blytheville 34-14 at Blytheville (who went to playoffs)

Everyone knew the 2015 season was going to be tough, since Paragould had lost their o-line. But they still managed to beat GCT.

Improvements have been made. But each high school is its own unique situation. Hopefully Coach Sloas can unlock the extra bit of tactics/talent/effort to make Paragould more competitive. 

[nuttinbuthogs]

For as far back as memory serves they haven't won more than 4 games in a season.  In the last 5 years they have won 12 games. In 2014 they made some changes and won 4 games, but they let that coach go after winning 1 this year?  Is that a step up?  The old saying is a win is a win is a win.  Well a loss is still a loss.  Somehow winning one game is good season?  You my friend are looking through rose colored glasses.  I'm not saying the new guy will not do better, but history is not in his favor.

[Grond]

For as far back as memory serves they haven't won more than 4 games in a season.  In the last 5 years they have won 12 games. In 2014 they made some changes and won 4 games, but they let that coach go after winning 1 this year?  Is that a step up?  The old saying is a win is a win is a win.  Well a loss is still a loss.  Somehow winning one game is good season?  You my friend are looking through rose colored glasses.  I'm not saying the new guy will not do better, but history is not in his favor.

The point I was trying to make is that some changes were made that led to improvements. But it seems you have run back to the old argument: "Well, they haven't won, so they aren't capable of winning."

The coaches, parents, and above all, the PLAYERS refuse to submit to this notion that improvement is unattainable. "Improvements" (i.e., wins) will require better tactics, techniques, and work ethic. The point of this thread was to discuss the traits that result in successful program 'turn-arounds'.

By the way, a one-win season can be a great season, depending on that one win.

[nuttinbuthogs]

The point is that they haven't won they haven't done those things to get them to a winning record for a long time.  One win is not a good indicator of future success.  Whats the old saying.  If you keep doing the same things and expecting a different outcome.........??  They need a big change in attitude. Years of not doing well is showing.

[MountieForLife]

By the way, a one-win season can be a great season, depending on that one win.

That statement may sum-up the problems in Paragould.  If most of the town agrees with this guy, that school will never aspire to a championship level.

[Dayton Kitchens]

The point I was trying to make is that some changes were made that led to improvements. But it seems you have run back to the old argument: "Well, they haven't won, so they aren't capable of winning."

The coaches, parents, and above all, the PLAYERS refuse to submit to this notion that improvement is unattainable. "Improvements" (i.e., wins) will require better tactics, techniques, and work ethic. The point of this thread was to discuss the traits that result in successful program 'turn-arounds'.

By the way, a one-win season can be a great season, depending on that one win.

Impossible.

The only losing season I ever saw as definitely successful was David Bennetts first season at Dierks. 

They went from three wins or less the previous four seasons to a four win season winning the first two and the last two.   In between EVERY game played against opponents from the previous season was at least two touchdowns closer in margin.

[GuvHog]

Impossible.

The only losing season I ever saw as definitely successful was David Bennetts first season at Dierks. 

They went from three wins or less the previous four seasons to a four win season winning the first two and the last two.   In between EVERY game played against opponents from the previous season was at least two touchdowns closer in margin.

I saw something similar when I went to school at Mountain Pine in the early 70's. The Red Devils had gone 0-10 in 70 and 71 so they terminated their Head coach in May of 72 and hired Stanley May. I signed on as team trainer for the 72' season. he got the boys to believing in themselves and they went 5-5 that year then the next several years went 10-0 winning conference titles and a couple of state titles too, I believe. That was a heck of a turnaround.

[nuttinbuthogs]

Turn around seasons.  Do you know for sure until a couple of seasons are played as to if its a turnaround or just a single good year.  One better year than the previous 2-3-10 is not a turnaround if it doesn't stick.

[FD4]

Man, there is some really good stuff posted about this.  It seems coaching is the common denominator.  I would say this.  Center your mind around the lack of wins not as failures but extreme opportunities for improvement.  Focus on that.  Your number one goal as a coach and player is to be better today than you were yesterday and better tomorrow than you are today.  1.  Commit; to being successful. 2. Unselfishness; your not an individual but part of a team. 3. Unite; come together as never before. 4. Improve; every day as a player, student and person.
5. Get Tough; both mentally and physically. 6. Self Disciplined. 7. Great Effort. 8. Enthusiasm. 9. Eliminate Mistakes; dont beat yourself. 10. Never Give Up; ever-ever-ever. 11. Never Except Losing; it will become habit forming. 12. Have No Self Limitations; expect more for yourself. 13. Expect to Win; truly believe you will. 14. Be Consistent; Give your best every time all the time. 15. Leadership; Everyone sets and Example.                    16. Responsibility; You are responsible for your own performance.

If these sound familiar, then you know who implements these 16 goals and why this team is one of the best in the country year in and year out, with mediocrity on the field, #2 and #3 players from around the state (yes its a college team) and one of the fewest number of scholarship players among division one schools.  These same goals will work at the high school level.  It takes a coach who understands this and is not in the game for a paycheck but for the love of his players and helping them become successful. 

[nuttinbuthogs]

Really hard to compare college and high school for a number of reasons.  Most colleges done have to worry about mommy and daddy getting things in a mess.LOL!

[FD4]

Right, but remember the incident with a QB and Momma at the U of A......Same thing, but....The thing with those 16 goals are applicable to life as well as the field.  Most HC's will have some sort of goal oriented mantra with which to encourage self discipline among the student athletes.   

[nuttinbuthogs]

Uhhh, athletes?

[bigchief72455]

Right, but remember the incident with a QB and Momma at the U of A......Same thing, but....The thing with those 16 goals are applicable to life as well as the field.  Most HC's will have some sort of goal oriented mantra with which to encourage self discipline among the student athletes.

Or a U of A RB and his momma with his commitment letter.