2014 - 7A Pre-State Tournament MONEY POLL

[3 Dollar]

1...Bentonville
2...Van Buren
3...Rogers
4...Springdale Har-Ber
5...North Little Rock
6...Conway
7...Bryant
8...Cabot
9...Rogers Heritage
10..Fort Smith Northside



Good Luck to All!!!

[Tigersr1]

7A Finals set, as both #1 seeds advance:

NLR 12 Van Buren 2
Bentonville 6 Harber 3

Should be a great final Saturday!

[softballjunkie1985]

That should be a great game....i sure wish that David Dodd had been calling the semi finals, that crew was awful, in the first game their pathetic call cost van buren and changed the whole complexion of that game. In the second game the home plate ump was as bad as I have ever seen...just awful. Having said that the two best teams won....still doesn't make it okay that the umps are that bad...good luck to both teams!!

[mack]

That should be a great game....i sure wish that David Dodd had been calling the semi finals, that crew was awful, in the first game their pathetic call cost van buren and changed the whole complexion of that game. In the second game the home plate ump was as bad as I have ever seen...just awful. Having said that the two best teams won....still doesn't make it okay that the umps are that bad...good luck to both teams!!

Wasn't there, but 12-2 is a pretty bad complexion...

[softballjunkie1985]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

[Tigersr1]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

I agree, it was an obvious call. Blown assignment by the umpiring crew. None of them were watching for the tag. It clearly changed the momentum of the game. Not to say that it would've changed the outcome, but you never know. The tight strike zone for the weekend was a huge problem as well and it hurt some of the pitchers that rely on the corners, and there were none. At least Dodd gave corners unlike the others that I saw.

[acbig]

Are you trying to say the better team did not win that game?  Better teams always adjust to what is being called by the umpires good or bad.

[mack]

Say what you will. Take away half the runs NLR scored, and momentum or not, it's still 6-2, a convincing win.  Take away 2/3 of the runs NLR scored and it's 4-2. 

It's pretty obvious who was better that day.  All that said, if I was on the other side of that obvious call, I'd still be screaming too.

[mack]

Are you trying to say the better team did not win that game?  Better teams always adjust to what is being called by the umpires good or bad.

Good point.  NLR had just blown the game open against Rogers when a call went against them that cost 2 runs on the play and a third that would have been driven in by the next batter on a fielders choice third out.  They played thru it.  No heads down in the dugout.

[Tigersr1]

Are you trying to say the better team did not win that game?  Better teams always adjust to what is being called by the umpires good or bad.

I never said the better team didn't win the game, just pointing out an obvious bad call. That being said, I don't think it changed the outcome of that game.

[Heat13]

Are you trying to say the better team did not win that game?  Better teams always adjust to what is being called by the umpires good or bad.

Good point.  NLR had just blown the game open against Rogers when a call went against them that cost 2 runs on the play and a third that would have been driven in by the next batter on a fielders choice third out.  They played thru it.  No heads down in the dugout.

I don't understand the obsession of many (not all) of the high school umps with calling slappers out of the box....my daughter has played travel ball from California to Arizona to South Dakota to Georgia and everywhere in between and I remember her being called out of the box once (I'm sure it's probably happened more but I honestly don't recall) yet during state it was called twice and I believe 5 times during high school ball and she only slaps probably 50% of the time.

I didn't watch every game during the state tourney but I saw it called four times during the games I did watch... Including the play which I think you are referring to. The batter called out of the box for NLR also happens to play travel ball with my daughter and once again I don't ever remember her being called for this but she was during state.  She hit a double and was standing on 2nd, 2 runs had scored and the kids already  back in dugout and then came (the very delayed) out of box call.  I was watching her very closely, as I always do, and it did not appear even close to her being out of box.....for one, she had slipped her first at bat because the area around home plate was quite muddy so she wasn't even attacking like she normally does for fear of slipping.  I get it.  I know the rule but let the kids decide the outcome.  Also  have probably watched 50-75 NCAA games this year and saw it called once during regionals.

She also happened to be same kid on the tag up play vs Van Buren.  I thought it was much closer than you guys.  She definitely went back to the bag because I was watching her and wondering why she was going back because I thought the ball was clearly going to be down.  As it turns out that was one highlight reel catch made by the centerfielder....definitely one of the better ones I saw this year.  Now did she leave early.....that is a definite possibility but I didn't think it was that obvious. 

[BvilleTiger]

She hit a double and was standing on 2nd, 2 runs had scored and the kids already  back in dugout and then came (the very delayed) out of box call.  I was watching her very closely, as I always do, and it did not appear even close to her being out of box.....

With this one statement you lost all credibility.

The call was made immediately. Had you been "watching closely" you would have seen the umpire raise his hands and yell, "Dead Ball!!!" multiple times. Fans were busy doing what fans do, watching and yelling, but not paying attention. I had no skin in the game and I was right behind the plate. I saw him make the call instantaneously.

The other umpires saw him make the call as well. Once they saw the call they stopped and walked back to their starting positions. From where I was standing, it looked like an excellent call. I bet if you were to ask the umpire that made the call, he would tell you he called her out because she stepped right in front of the plate when she hit the ball.

Carry on.

[Heat13]

Well I'm really bummed about losing my credibility and on a forum no less but life must go on I suppose but this is definitely a low point for me.

I will admit to not watching the umpire closely but I can guarantee if he made that call it was not with any authority but that's not even close to the point.  What I was "watching closely" was her footwork since I had seen the out of box call twice previously and I was also standing directly behind home plate.  In my opinion, it was not close. 

[mack]

I've been bleeding NLR blue longer than anyone on here.  We've won state tournaments with help from debateable calls and we've lost them the same way.  I'm fiercely loyal to the Blue and Gold.
When Sid slapped the ball, I looked at the plate to watch the run score.  The ump had already stepped forward onto the plate with his arms up.  No, he didn't jump up and down to make the call, but he clearly made it as far as I'm concerned.

[mack]

She hit a double and was standing on 2nd, 2 runs had scored and the kids already  back in dugout and then came (the very delayed) out of box call.  I was watching her very closely, as I always do, and it did not appear even close to her being out of box.....

With this one statement you lost all credibility.

The call was made immediately. Had you been "watching closely" you would have seen the umpire raise his hands and yell, "Dead Ball!!!" multiple times. Fans were busy doing what fans do, watching and yelling, but not paying attention. I had no skin in the game and I was right behind the plate. I saw him make the call instantaneously.

The other umpires saw him make the call as well. Once they saw the call they stopped and walked back to their starting positions. From where I was standing, it looked like an excellent call. I bet if you were to ask the umpire that made the call, he would tell you he called her out because she stepped right in front of the plate when she hit the ball.

Carry on.

C'mon dude or dudette.  I believe the ump saw what he saw, but not 1 out of ten spectators watches to see if the slapper steps out of the box.  You may have lost a little credibility here,,,, unless you're daughters a slapper...

[softballjunkie1985]

Heat,  I didn't your kid was a slapper...she is a very good player. .I saw you guys at the elite invite last season. .we will see you guys this summer I'm sure as my kid plays for Tulsa Elite 95 and perhaps Team North Florida gold at Premier.

[mack]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

MOV950067.3gp

Hmmm,  hope y'all can see this.  Appears she did tag after all.  Some need to recant their testimony...

[3sportkid]

Mack,

Can't see it...

[mack]

I've got the video in my messages on my I phone .  I'm trying to figure out how to post the video.  It's grainy, but clearly shows Sid returning to second to tag up.

[BvilleTiger]

C'mon dude or dudette.  I believe the ump saw what he saw, but not 1 out of ten spectators watches to see if the slapper steps out of the box.  You may have lost a little credibility here,,,, unless you're daughters a slapper...

Thanks for making my point. Notice, I never said I was watching the player. I said I saw the umpire make the call.

BTW, I saw you too when you called the umpire by name before the game. I was standing right next to you. We have a mutual friend.

The call was made it was just that the crowd was so fired up no one could hear anything. Still can't believe the one umpire stopped the game over the girls making noise.

[BvilleTiger]

Well I'm really bummed about losing my credibility and on a forum no less but life must go on I suppose but this is definitely a low point for me.

I will admit to not watching the umpire closely but I can guarantee if he made that call it was not with any authority but that's not even close to the point.  What I was "watching closely" was her footwork since I had seen the out of box call twice previously and I was also standing directly behind home plate.  In my opinion, it was not close. 

Well which is it? First you said he waited to make the call until the runners were in the dugout and the batter was on second. Now you are saying you "can guarantee if he made that call it was not with any authority".

Would you expect to be able to hear one person that has his back to you over the yelling and screaming of a few hundred people? Besides, do you think any of us believe you would say anything other than "my daughter didn't step out of the box"?

Maybe you haven't been around very long but if you do a little research you will be able to find out exactly who the plate umpire was for that game. You may also notice folks from several different schools have had positive things to say about him. That's rare for an umpire.

You can tear him down if you want. I know he will see your posts and everyone else's but I bet you don't see him respond. It's easy to sit back and criticize. If you know so much and think the guys willing to step out there and make the tough calls are so bad, sign up to umpire. It ain't as easy as it looks.

[softballjunkie1985]

I can tell you this that particular umpire and me have had our differences however I would take him behind home plate every day over anyone else I have seen in high school. He is fair and calls balls and strikes the way its supposed to be called. My kid believes he is the best we see and would have loved him over the one we got in the semi finals who was all over the place.

[Heat13]

Well I'm really bummed about losing my credibility and on a forum no less but life must go on I suppose but this is definitely a low point for me.

I will admit to not watching the umpire closely but I can guarantee if he made that call it was not with any authority but that's not even close to the point.  What I was "watching closely" was her footwork since I had seen the out of box call twice previously and I was also standing directly behind home plate.  In my opinion, it was not close. 

Well which is it? First you said he waited to make the call until the runners were in the dugout and the batter was on second. Now you are saying you "can guarantee if he made that call it was not with any authority".

Would you expect to be able to hear one person that has his back to you over the yelling and screaming of a few hundred people? Besides, do you think any of us believe you would say anything other than "my daughter didn't step out of the box"?

Maybe you haven't been around very long but if you do a little research you will be able to find out exactly who the plate umpire was for that game. You may also notice folks from several different schools have had positive things to say about him. That's rare for an umpire.

You can tear him down if you want. I know he will see your posts and everyone else's but I bet you don't see him respond. It's easy to sit back and criticize. If you know so much and think the guys willing to step out there and make the tough calls are so bad, sign up to umpire. It ain't as easy as it looks.

why don't you go back and read my original post....sloooowly.....I also stated again if he made the call when you said he did...fair enough....I missed that...admitted to that...and honestly....I DON'T CARE WHEN THE CALL WAS MADE OR HOW....again....read the original post....it was not about THAT call but it was about the number of times the out of box call was made in high school ball and not just by him...I only saw him  make the call that one time...honestly if that had been the only time it was called I wouldn't have given it a 2nd thought.....also you say you weren't watching the player but then say you thought it was an excellent call....if you weren't watching the player how do you know it was an excellent call...I was 100% watching the player and nothing but the footwork of the player....I did not even see her hit the ball....was focused only on her footwork because of the previous out of box calls...I said in my opinion it was a bad call....I don't hate the man...but again it was not just about that/his call but the number of times I saw it called this weekend to the number of times I've seen it called the last 5 years...had nothing to do with him individually...

also I said I thought the tag play was the correct call while others have said it was terrible....let me break it down one more time....one more time....overall I thought a good job was done by the crew....but it still seems to me the slappers were targeted closely for the out of box call....while I really don't see it anywhere else...simple as that...and I still believe that...if I'm wrong so be it....at the end of the day I saw that call 4 times in 3 games which again is more than I've seen it in 5 years on the road....

carry on

[mack]

I can tell you this that particular umpire and me have had our differences however I would take him behind home plate every day over anyone else I have seen in high school. He is fair and calls balls and strikes the way its supposed to be called. My kid believes he is the best we see and would have loved him over the one we got in the semi finals who was all over the place.

Regardless that he is my friend, his character is unimpeachable.  His knowledge of the game far surpasses most fans that I know, certainly what little I know. 

[True Fan]

....I did not even see her hit the ball....

This is actually a very important element of that call. 



Most slappers are, and should be, coached to push the front of the box. The advantage gained is to shorten the distance. I see it missed way more than I see it called. I believe the main reason is that it is hard to see from behind the plate/catcher/batter. Unless it is obvious, it can be a difficult call. With one exception, stepping into the area between the batter boxes in front of the plate. It was mentioned earlier that this could have been the case. Very easy to do on an outside pitch and the one instance where the plate ump really has a good look at all of the elements required to make that call. I wasn't there and didn't see this particular play. Just a general observation.

[Heat13]

....I did not even see her hit the ball....

This is actually a very important element of that call. 

you now too   

I should have said...I did not see contact but watched the footwork while listening for the contact...actually what all this proves is how difficult it is to see if a slapper is out of the box unless maybe if she steps right on the middle of the plate...if not...how could you possibly tell if it's a ball or strike if your watching all that as well....just saying....and once again...this was not my kid

[BvilleTiger]

....I did not even see her hit the ball....

This is actually a very important element of that call. 



Most slappers are, and should be, coached to push the front of the box. The advantage gained is to shorten the distance. I see it missed way more than I see it called. I believe the main reason is that it is hard to see from behind the plate/catcher/batter. Unless it is obvious, it can be a difficult call. With one exception, stepping into the area between the batter boxes in front of the plate. It was mentioned earlier that this could have been the case. Very easy to do on an outside pitch and the one instance where the plate ump really has a good look at all of the elements required to make that call. I wasn't there and didn't see this particular play. Just a general observation.

True Fan gets it.

About the only time you see it called is when the batter is trying to reach an outside pitch. That's normally when they step either on the plate or right in front of the plate. The key is where is the foot when contact is made.

With that said, I did see a player from Conway called out. She slapped a change up and was half way to the pitcher when contact was made. Not a call you see made often but was a good call.

[Heat13]

that one I actually agreed with....the whole point from the get go was it's not a call you see that often...again...I saw it called more in three games than I have in five years on the highway....was nothing more than that...

in my opinion you could call leaving early on the steal just as easily and probably more often and be correct a higher percentage of the time...again a call you don't see that often

[sportsfanatic18]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

MOV950067.3gp

Hmmm,  hope y'all can see this.  Appears she did tag after all.  Some need to recant their testimony...

Please post this whenever you can—I'm really interested in watching it! Thanks. According to my sources, when the VB coach was arguing with umpires, all 3 said they were not watching the runner. My main thought was: if no one is watching the runner, how is the call safe? Just a thought. Wish I would've been there to see it with my own eyes. But I don't watch the runner either. ha ha

[mack]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

MOV950067.3gp

Hmmm,  hope y'all can see this.  Appears she did tag after all.  Some need to recant their testimony...

Please post this whenever you can—I'm really interested in watching it! Thanks. According to my sources, when the VB coach was arguing with umpires, all 3 said they were not watching the runner. My main thought was: if no one is watching the runner, how is the call safe? Just a thought. Wish I would've been there to see it with my own eyes. But I don't watch the runner either. ha ha

Sent it to one of our n mod tech experts to work on....
Stay tuned'

[True Fan]

My main thought was: if no one is watching the runner, how is the call safe?

That's the way it should be. Ties don't go to the runner, but the benefit of the doubt does. For an umpire to make a call whether it is a strike, out (tag or force), leaving early, illegal pitch, out of the box, missing a base (only on appeal), or not tagging on a fly ball, they have to see it.  Sometimes the play or anticipation draws the umpires focus to a different element. An umpire cannot guess on these calls. If not seen, it is assumed that the players did what they were supposed to.

[sportsfanatic18]

My main thought was: if no one is watching the runner, how is the call safe?

That's the way it should be. Ties don't go to the runner, but the benefit of the doubt does. For an umpire to make a call whether it is a strike, out (tag or force), leaving early, illegal pitch, out of the box, missing a base (only on appeal), or not tagging on a fly ball, they have to see it.  Sometimes the play or anticipation draws the umpires focus to a different element. An umpire cannot guess on these calls. If not seen, it is assumed that the players did what they were supposed to.

That makes sense—just stinks it has to be that way! I would request a manager's challenge!

[BvilleTiger]

in my opinion you could call leaving early on the steal just as easily and probably more often and be correct a higher percentage of the time...again a call you don't see that often

I would say that the reason you rarely see leaving early called is due to most games you watch utilize a two umpire system. The positioning of the umpires with runners on base make it a difficult call. I would wager that if you could collect statistics on games where a runner is called out for leaving early, the percentage would be far greater in games with three umpires.

I would bet the same for illegal pitches.

While we're on the subject, did anyone notice the Bentonville runner leave early? By that I mean WAY early? It was a situation with runners on first and third. The runner on first took off trying to draw a throw to allow the runner on third to score. She was about 10 feet off the bag when the pitch was released.

I was headed back from the concession stand and stopped at the railing out behind right field. Two or three umpires from the tournament that weren't calling the game were up there. I saw what I thought was an obvious call and looked over at the umpires. All of them were whispering to each other and shaking their heads so I assume they saw it too.

[Heat13]

Just had the opportunity to see the video on the tag play......

As was mentioned previously, it is a little grainy, but can definitely see Syd returning to 2nd base to tag on the play...

but as also has been mentioned....I have no credibility so take that for what it's worth

[BvilleTiger]

If it is the same video I saw you have to assume a lot of stuff.

You can't really see the base so you can't see if the runner went all the way back. You cannot see when the ball is first touched. And you certainly cannot see where the runner is at the moment the ball is first touched.

You do see the runner leave the bag then the runner reverse direction. What you "see" from that point depends on whether you are a NLR fan or a VB fan.

The impartial observer sees a grainy shaky inconclusive poor quality video of what appears to be a softball game.

[softballjunkie1985]

Would love to see video because along with others next to me with no vested interest swears the kid never returned to the bag after the catch was made..really doesn't matter...it was a critical call however as I stated above the 2 best teams are in the final.

[mack]

If it is the same video I saw you have to assume a lot of stuff.

You can't really see the base so you can't see if the runner went all the way back. You cannot see when the ball is first touched. And you certainly cannot see where the runner is at the moment the ball is first touched.

You do see the runner leave the bag then the runner reverse direction. What you "see" from that point depends on whether you are a NLR fan or a VB fan.

The impartial observer sees a grainy shaky inconclusive poor quality video of what appears to be a softball game.

Bull sugar, I call on you!  The earlier poster and two other NWA fans I talked to swore she went straight to third, never attempting to tag.  Umps didn't call her out.  The video shows her returning to second.  There's more evidence to support the NLR version than the NWA version.  Any rational fan should see that.

[softballjunkie1985]

Mack it really doesn't matter but you must believe Sydney covered 30 ft in 1 sec if you follow the elapsed time in the video..she is quick but not that quick...Again, NLR proved over the entirety of the game it was the better team..period

[mack]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

Let me remind you what you posted....

Read above what YOU say happened.  Nah, I'll quote you.

" she was halfway between second and third,,,, she just kept going to third after the catch,,, with 3 umps that should be am easy call "

Grainy or not, you're refuted amigo..

[softballjunkie1985]

No actually I am not..she started to go back but only went a part way then continued on....so maybe I stated incorrectly but I believe I am correct

[mack]

2/2 at the time of the call which was the 3rd out..they scored several the same inning. The call was one of the worse calls ever...it was a tag play where the runner didn't even go back to the base. .she was half way in between 2nd and 3rd...she just kept going to 3rd after the catch...With 3 umpires that should be an easy call

Let me remind you what you posted....

Read above what YOU say happened.  Nah, I'll quote you.

" she was halfway between second and third,,,, she just kept going to third after the catch,,, with 3 umps that should be am easy call "

Grainy or not, you're refuted amigo..

Mack it really doesn't matter but you must believe Sydney covered 30 ft in 1 sec if you follow the elapsed time in the video..she is quick but not that quick...Again, NLR proved over the entirety of the game it was the better team..period

I can't even post a video on here... I sure can't alter one LOL
I'll trust the mod to get it on here for discussion.  I will grant it does not show her tagging up, only that she reversed field to attempt the tag.

[softballjunkie1985]

Agreed she did reverse but didn't get back..again though NLR was clearly the better team

[Mike Love]

For what it is worth, a very near and dear friend of mine was there. He said she never tagged up. Until proven different, I trust him.

[3sportkid]

I did not get there until the score was 9-2 but I am sure she didn't tag up 

[Tigersr1]

Heat, the batters box is called the batters box for a reason, YOU have to stay between the lines. Your statement is so ridicoulous, I don't care who or who hasn't called her out, if she is out of the box SHE IS OUT!!! It is a rule! Come on man! As far as the girl tagging up, there is NO WAY! Just saying, I watched it and I saw the same game everyone, but a FEW saw.

[Heat13]

Heat, the batters box is called the batters box for a reason, YOU have to stay between the lines. Your statement is so ridicoulous, I don't care who or who hasn't called her out, if she is out of the box SHE IS OUT!!! It is a rule! Come on man! As far as the girl tagging up, there is NO WAY! Just saying, I watched it and I saw the same game everyone, but a FEW saw.

[mack]

Heat, the batters box is called the batters box for a reason, YOU have to stay between the lines. Your statement is so ridicoulous, I don't care who or who hasn't called her out, if she is out of the box SHE IS OUT!!! It is a rule! Come on man! As far as the girl tagging up, there is NO WAY! Just saying, I watched it and I saw the same game everyone, but a FEW saw.

Yeah,,, she went straight to third without going back, or maybe she did go back but didn't tag,,,, or maybe she thought about going back but didn't ...  Maybe all three umps did crack the inning before so they all missed it,,,,

LOL.... Make up your minds.

[mack]

Heat, the batters box is called the batters box for a reason, YOU have to stay between the lines. Your statement is so ridicoulous, I don't care who or who hasn't called her out, if she is out of the box SHE IS OUT!!! It is a rule! Come on man! As far as the girl tagging up, there is NO WAY! Just saying, I watched it and I saw the same game everyone, but a FEW saw.

I don't know how you got that pic of me, but I do rock that look!

You're sorta new but learning quick.  You can't argue with the Wal-Martians.

[Earl is my Hero!!]

You can't argue with the Wal-Martians.

You can argue, but you will never win...

[Bye Week]

Ought to be a heck of a game!!  Good Luck Ladies!!  Wish I could make the trip over to see it