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Its looking like soccer is going to be a hot topic this summer with AAA

Started by beeroe, February 03, 2017, 01:51:37 pm

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ARSOCCER2017

Quote from: TheGoalkeeper13 on May 01, 2017, 10:59:47 am
I did all of the sorting and I'd say it'd be fairly even. 4A would have 27 teams as to where 3A would have 24. That's if all of the teams that declare actually played though.

I thought that would be about the split, but I am also wondering if  all of those declared actually fielded teams. I know that in the 4A-2 all listed at least fielded a guys team. Would it be worth it for the 3A to field a smaller state tourney maybe 8-10 teams?

TheGoalkeeper13

Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 01, 2017, 11:37:54 am
I thought that would be about the split, but I am also wondering if  all of those declared actually fielded teams. I know that in the 4A-2 all listed at least fielded a guys team. Would it be worth it for the 3A to field a smaller state tourney maybe 8-10 teams?
As far as I am aware out of those 24, 22 schools fielded boys teams. If they did create a 3A, I feel like that'd be a good size for a tournament.

Red Wolf

Soccer needs to be treated different than other sports.  I'd like to see Arkansas design a relegation league.  This is how they do it in professional leagues in Europe.

Take the top soccer programs and put them in the top level.  Not sure what the cutoff should be number wise, maybe take the top 32 and divide into 4 regional 8 team conferences.  You could take the next 32, then the next 32 and finally everyone else.  You'd have 4 classifications.

The bottom 2 teams at each level move down a level at the end of the year and the top 2 teams from the next level down move up.

The reason?  There are certain schools that have a lot of club players that make games very uneven.  It's not fun for the losing team and the winning team isn't challenged. 

The levels should not be base on enrollment but rather success.  Everyone has an opportunity to move up if they develop their soccer program and if you don't care about soccer but use it as a filler sport, you'll move down and play like teams.

Just a suggestion.

sssuperpantherfan2

You can't make everyone equal, you only give opportunity for equal effort. Don't punish schools that have players giving more effort to be better.

Red Wolf

Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 06, 2017, 05:50:39 pm
You can't make everyone equal, you only give opportunity for equal effort. Don't punish schools that have players giving more effort to be better.

Relegation does not punish schools who improve.  If a school does better they can move up.  Relegation does not make everyone equal but it puts teams against teams that are similar in skill.  When a game ends up 11-0 what good is that for either team?

Relegation has a negative tone but it is not meant as a negative.  You can move up or down depending on the strength of the team.  The idea is to even up the matchups. 

There are 4A teams that can play with or beat 7A teams and if they are equally matched its a much more interesting game for both teams.  It's better than the 4A crushing another weak 4A team or the 7A team crushing another 7A team.

Buck183

Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 06, 2017, 05:50:39 pm
You can't make everyone equal, you only give opportunity for equal effort. Don't punish schools that have players giving more effort to be better.

Thought the same things as you when I saw that post. Just because a team, area, or particular school that has kids that choose to play at a higher level and get tha best training doesn't mean they should be singled out for being in a certain league or division.  I'm all for playing at your level when it comes to club ball. Playing better competition just makes you better.....period. But this doesn't apply to anything in high school athletics. 

If a school isn't happy with their success in a given sport then they can put together a grass roots program to build their players like some of these communities have. It's blatantly obvious who has these programs in place based on the success the same schools seem to have every year.  It's not because they have better atheletes.  Just having good athletes will get you by in a few sports, but it won't happen in soccer. 

High school athletics have playoffs and state championships based on the size of the school you attend.  It's a cycle that takes place every year in every sport and it's a beautiful thing to witness and be a part of. If we want leagues and games based on skill level then go play club ball or professional ball, that's what they're there for.


Buck183

Quote from: Red Wolf on May 06, 2017, 08:22:34 pm
Relegation does not punish schools who improve.  If a school does better they can move up.  Relegation does not make everyone equal but it puts teams against teams that are similar in skill.  When a game ends up 11-0 what good is that for either team?

Relegation has a negative tone but it is not meant as a negative.  You can move up or down depending on the strength of the team.  The idea is to even up the matchups. 

There are 4A teams that can play with or beat 7A teams and if they are equally matched its a much more interesting game for both teams.  It's better than the 4A crushing another weak 4A team or the 7A team crushing another 7A team.

I saw teams get crushed in football, basketball, volleyball, and other sports this year. All of them playing within their appropriate conferences.  It just happens. Nothing is going to change that. I agree that it's not the ideal scenario, but it's going to happen. 

I completely get everything you've said and understand where you're coming from. It just won't work. 

sevenof400

Quote from: Buck183 on May 06, 2017, 09:44:59 pm
I saw teams get crushed in football, basketball, volleyball, and other sports this year. All of them playing within their appropriate conferences.  It just happens. Nothing is going to change that. I agree that it's not the ideal scenario, but it's going to happen. 

I completely get everything you've said and understand where you're coming from. It just won't work.

Sure it would. 
In fact, it would be the best development for high school athletics in this state - ever. 
Just imagine more teams playing against appropriate competition - how could this be a bad thing?

Taken to the extreme, a school might be playing in EVERY classification across all of the sports but so what?  If every team could participate on a more level basis with the teams they are competing against - how could this be and? 

It will take some out of the box thinking to make it work - and one massively better AAA office (one that actually communicates) to pull it off but it would be great for athletes AND would address the many issue with the current classification system.   

Buck183

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 06, 2017, 09:49:53 pm
Sure it would. 
In fact, it would be the best development for high school athletics in this state - ever. 
Just imagine more teams playing against appropriate competition - how could this be a bad thing?

Taken to the extreme, a school might be playing in EVERY classification across all of the sports but so what?  If every team could participate on a more level basis with the teams they are competing against - how could this be and? 

It will take some out of the box thinking to make it work - and one massively better AAA office (one that actually communicates) to pull it off but it would be great for athletes AND would address the many issue with the current classification system.

You may very well be right.  I'm just too narrow minded to see it and I admit it. 

Lets Go 5

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 06, 2017, 09:49:53 pm
Sure it would. 
In fact, it would be the best development for high school athletics in this state - ever. 
Just imagine more teams playing against appropriate competition - how could this be a bad thing?

Taken to the extreme, a school might be playing in EVERY classification across all of the sports but so what?  If every team could participate on a more level basis with the teams they are competing against - how could this be and? 

It will take some out of the box thinking to make it work - and one massively better AAA office (one that actually communicates) to pull it off but it would be great for athletes AND would address the many issue with the current classification system.

I do agree in the fact it would help a great deal.
But
There are a great many things that would make it not work well.  When you change them then maybe something like that would work.

Red Wolf

Quote from: Lets Go 5 on May 06, 2017, 10:33:28 pm
I do agree in the fact it would help a great deal.
But
There are a great many things that would make it not work well.  When you change them then maybe something like that would work.

I'm new to the board so I'm not trying to be a jerk when I ask this question but what other things would need to change to make something like "relegation" work?

sssuperpantherfan2

Your giving a crutch to the schools to be bad or mediocre, some schools will never care about "X" sport and put all the resources into what they want to headline. It would be embarrassing to me to see a 6/7a school play a 4a or 5a division. You want a better program, the school will have to get better coaches and put more resources into it or parents and coaches get into a strong club program. Don't punish those that are already doing this and say it's not fair they have X amount of club players and they are too good, that's this kids choice, not the schools. You can't coach desire and you shouldn't punish a team loaded with kids with more than others. It will change every year.

Red Wolf

Quote from: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 07, 2017, 09:32:49 am
Your giving a crutch to the schools to be bad or mediocre, some schools will never care about "X" sport and put all the resources into what they want to headline. It would be embarrassing to me to see a 6/7a school play a 4a or 5a division. You want a better program, the school will have to get better coaches and put more resources into it or parents and coaches get into a strong club program. Don't punish those that are already doing this and say it's not fair they have X amount of club players and they are too good, that's this kids choice, not the schools. You can't coach desire and you shouldn't punish a team loaded with kids with more than others. It will change every year.

Good 5A schools already play 6A & 7A schools in non-conference and beat them regularly.  The games are much better than most of the conference games....more competitive.  For the schools that will never care about soccer...they will end up in a lower classification...if they decided to improve...they'd move up.  Anybody that knows anything about soccer in Arkansas knows the smaller enrollment schools in areas of the state with a lot of club players are going to be better than larger schools that have little to no club play in their area.  I never said it's not fair that a school have X amount of club players...but your argument is a little hard to interpret.

Simply put...some schools don't emphasize soccer and/or don't have any club players.  It's not the kids fault but do you think that them playing schools with lots of club players is any fun.  Do you think those kids enjoy getting beat 11-0?  By the time those kids get to high school age it's too late to start playing club to try and catch up. 

If a community wants to improve their soccer program they need to develop players when they are young with a good community soccer program.  Then they need to develop a classic program as the club matures.  That will be what helps the High School team to improve.  If the community doesn't care about soccer let them play at a lower level.

sssuperpantherfan2

I love to see good competition, we play up too, Springdale, Harber, BV West and we beat them this year, first time ever against Springdale and Harber.  We love to play Harrison, great competition, we played tournaments against Mt Home and Mt St Mary's. We try to set up games against good teams, played up against a couple great Oklahoma teams we lost to. You will not get better if you don't try to play harder competition, you learn more from adversity than easy wins or less competitive teams. When your kid have been a club player for 10 yrs, they should be good on the field. It shows in a team record, it's their reward.  It won't be the same every year, we will be strong for a couple more years but after that it could be anyone else turn. Sticking them in a variable conference because they are stronger or weaker is a joke for a HS program that can have several graduate out, quit, or get injured. In club teams, you want good competition so you choose your division and it's easier to work with and schedule.

WillC

Even with a league of the 32 best teams in the state, the top ten could still beat the bottom ten by 3+.  There's quite a drop-off.  While it may sound good in theory, a promotion/relegation system would never be implemented. That's just not how scholastic sports work.

Red Wolf

Well people once thought we'd never land on the moon either. 

But if AAA wont consider it, then they need to allow more non-conference games.  This year they added more conference games and cut down opportunities to play like level teams.

Lets Go 5

Quote from: Red Wolf on May 09, 2017, 07:56:36 am
Well people once thought we'd never land on the moon either. 

But if AAA wont consider it, then they need to allow more non-conference games.  This year they added more conference games and cut down opportunities to play like level teams.


I keep it easy...
I simply look at High School soccer as what it is..."Rec Soccer"

Most of the cases the High School doesn't have a full time soccer coaches. And some of those coaches wouldn't even coach soccer if it wasn't a foot in the door at the school.

The average school has what maybe 2-6 real soccer players at a given time. The others are players that just enjoy the game. By real I mean players that train year around. While half the team is at the pool or on the couch...They are out running 10 miles or playing 3v3 in 100 plus degrees.

Some think soccer season is over after the state finals games.
Buck and I can tell you it's really just getting started at that point. It kills me when people ask when is soccer over for the year....The answer...Never really maybe for a 1-2 week break they will take after state for themselves.


It's a commitment!!!

If your lucky you will have a Coach with the passion for the game truly.
If your lucky then you will have several players that will play in the snow, rain or heat. Give their time when all the others are out having different fun.
If you have that. Then you have a "Good" team.


Anyways
That is truly how you get better.
Don't have the state change things for everyone else.."For the common good of all." Don't have them try to tell us how we can become better..Get out there and do it.  It's simple.

Sorry if this seems rude. But it simply is being truthful.


Just1Coach

Quote from: Lets Go 5 on May 09, 2017, 09:28:53 am

I keep it easy...
I simply look at High School soccer as what it is..."Rec Soccer"


Rant on:

Why do people look down on "Rec Soccer"?  Every single "Classic" player was once a "Rec" player.  There are extremely talented "Rec" players who choose to participate in multiple other activities--Volleyball, Cheer, Band, etc. The assumption being that to be a good/great soccer player every other activity has to cease.  So not true.

Try telling all those players and parents in the Heller Cup this past weekend that they are only "Rec" players.  The games were, for the most part, tight, competitive and skilled matches.  Players from several teams will also be participating in the Governors Cup or ASC the next 2 weekends.

Can we please try to avoid these type of generalizations?  Please and thank you.

Rant off.


sssuperpantherfan2

Quote from: Just1Coach on May 09, 2017, 10:37:23 am
Rant on:

Why do people look down on "Rec Soccer"?  Every single "Classic" player was once a "Rec" player.  There are extremely talented "Rec" players who choose to participate in multiple other activities--Volleyball, Cheer, Band, etc. The assumption being that to be a good/great soccer player every other activity has to cease.  So not true.

Try telling all those players and parents in the Heller Cup this past weekend that they are only "Rec" players.  The games were, for the most part, tight, competitive and skilled matches.  Players from several teams will also be participating in the Governors Cup or ASC the next 2 weekends.

Can we please try to avoid these type of generalizations?  Please and thank you.

Rant off.

Everyone usually starts out in Rec soccer, so kids join HS to be part of the glory.  Tournament play is great to step up your game and play teams you may never see on the regular HS schedule. If you aren't getting out of your area to play then your missing an opportunity to get better by playing better teams. Competition on the Rec field may not be as good as the club games and that has been our experience. Our club team played Rec teams from Rogers and Fayetteville but realized that it was good but we played tougher teams in KC, Broken Arrow, Ft Smith & Little Rock.
How many times has Rec teams brought on a club team for a better challenge on their schedule?

Lets Go 5

Quote from: Just1Coach on May 09, 2017, 10:37:23 am
Rant on:

Why do people look down on "Rec Soccer"?  Every single "Classic" player was once a "Rec" player.  There are extremely talented "Rec" players who choose to participate in multiple other activities--Volleyball, Cheer, Band, etc. The assumption being that to be a good/great soccer player every other activity has to cease.  So not true.

Try telling all those players and parents in the Heller Cup this past weekend that they are only "Rec" players.  The games were, for the most part, tight, competitive and skilled matches.  Players from several teams will also be participating in the Governors Cup or ASC the next 2 weekends.

Can we please try to avoid these type of generalizations?  Please and thank you.

Rant off.


Sorry if the term Rec offends you. It was ment to describe a level of play. There is nothing at all wrong with Rec.

We were talking about two things above my comment.
How to make Arkansas Soccer better and some wanting to change the structure to level the field out.

But, You kind of proved my point.
Say our kids are on the same High School team. Your child does Cheer while mine spends the other 8 months training in Soccer.

When they join up for High School soccer. Your child will be far behind mine in most cases. As far as soccer goes.
The coach has to:
Spend more time with your child then mine. Which slows my kids training down.
The Coach has to train at a lower level because yours wasn't present on the days the others were learning the same stuff he is now repeating.
You child will have less touches on the ball which in tern mean.
Won't be able to read a field as good.
Won't be able to pass and receive passes as good.
Won't be able to work and know how to work the ball through traffic.

So, What does that any good for Arkansas soccer?
That's what we are all talking about right?

I love a kid that can play multiple sports. But it is what it is.

WillC

Quote from: Lets Go 5 on May 09, 2017, 12:00:14 pm

Sorry if the term Rec offends you. It was ment to describe a level of play. There is nothing at all wrong with Rec.

We were talking about two things above my comment.
How to make Arkansas Soccer better and some wanting to change the structure to level the field out.

But, You kind of proved my point.
Say our kids are on the same High School team. Your child does Cheer while mine spends the other 8 months training in Soccer.

When they join up for High School soccer. Your child will be far behind mine in most cases. As far as soccer goes.
The coach has to:
Spend more time with your child then mine. Which slows my kids training down.
The Coach has to train at a lower level because yours wasn't present on the days the others were learning the same stuff he is now repeating.
You child will have less touches on the ball which in tern mean.
Won't be able to read a field as good.
Won't be able to pass and receive passes as good.
Won't be able to work and know how to work the ball through traffic.

So, What does that any good for Arkansas soccer?
That's what we are all talking about right?

I love a kid that can play multiple sports. But it is what it is.

And at the end of the day, one child MIGHT get a $4,000 scholarship to play soccer that she MIGHT finish her college career with. There's nothing wrong with focusing on one sport, but let's not chastise others for playing multiple. It can be done. I played soccer, football, and basketball in high school. I quit club soccer after 9th grade (I played in the 7A West, the competition level was pretty similar anyway). I still received scholarship offers in both football and soccer.  You don't have to spend money and travel around the country to get better at a sport.

ARSOCCER2017


I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.

razorback

Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 09:25:10 am
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.

There is not a girls team in 4A that can touch them.....

The Coach

Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 09:25:10 am
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.

New proposal is stupid and in no way does it improve anything. Just leave things alone.

4real

Quote from: WillC on May 09, 2017, 12:17:54 pm
And at the end of the day, one child MIGHT get a $4,000 scholarship to play soccer that she MIGHT finish her college career with. There's nothing wrong with focusing on one sport, but let's not chastise others for playing multiple. It can be done. I played soccer, football, and basketball in high school. I quit club soccer after 9th grade (I played in the 7A West, the competition level was pretty similar anyway). I still received scholarship offers in both football and soccer.  You don't have to spend money and travel around the country to get better at a sport.

It is quite amazing how much money parents "invest" in their kid committing to a particular sport for the sake of gaining a scholarship.  Parents will spend as much money in a year of travel ball, including tour fees, food, fuel, hotel, equipment, as what a year of tuition costs.  Add that up from the time a kid turns, say ten years old, and do it all the way through high school, and you could've saved that money to go to a nice university...

Sir Alex

Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 09:25:10 am
I think the proposed new classifications for soccer would consist of 6A,5A,4A,and3A.
This would not create a new class for soccer.....just redistribute the teams.
6A Top 16 Schools
5A Next 32
4A Next 48
3A would be everyone below. CAC would be in this class....I don't see a girls side in that class that could touch them.

Don't forget that privates are then multiplied by 1.5, so most likely they would bump up.

beeroe

My two biggest issues with the current set up are:

1. Travel distances. We have three schools which are more than 3 hours away from us. Three hours through the mountains.

2. Meaningful games. We are in a conference which has schools with enrollment as low as 90 students being matched up against schools that have enrollment as high as 464. The 4A also makes up nearly half of all of the teams playing soccer in the state. If you are a 1 or 2A School you have virtually no hope of post season play and no chance of having a winning season. If the 4 or 5 largest schools in the 4A were asked to move up a conference they would fight it tooth and nail but fail to see an issue at all to have these small schools in their conferences. One coach from a 4A school looked me straight in the face and said 4A girls soccer could not compete in the 5A.... So how do we expect the 3a and below teams to compete with them? Actually if the 4a conference were a smaller conference the true 4a schools could schedule more meaningful games which would better prepare them for post season play. Rather than driving 3 hours to go and beat a team 14-0.

It is either time for a 3A conference which would mean even more travel for smaller schools. Or a promotion relegation system which eases travel and helps to create more competitive conferences.

ARSOCCER2017

Quote from: Sir Alex on May 15, 2017, 11:25:05 am
Don't forget that privates are then multiplied by 1.5, so most likely they would bump up.

On what I was looking at AAA already moved the private schools where they wanted them.

LRCA would be 5A
PA, Subiaco and Shiloh would be 4A
CAC, Episcopal, Baptist Prep would be 3A

VHSCoach2

This new proposal, that hopefully falls by the wayside in the end, has me, and many other coaches that I know, changing tune on the blended conferences.

The majority that I have talked to are in favor of keeping the current blend rather than joining the current 6A with the top 16 5A, etc. all the way down.

MDXPHD

Quote from: ARSOCCER2017 on May 15, 2017, 01:09:06 pm

On what I was looking at AAA already moved the private schools where they wanted them.

LRCA would be 5A
PA, Subiaco and Shiloh would be 4A
CAC, Episcopal, Baptist Prep would be 3A

I don't believe the multiplier is in effect anymore. I'm almost certain that privates with an enrollment of more than 80 (maybe I'm wrong on that) automatically get bumped up the next class.

ARSOCCER2017

I'm for keeping the blend compared to what they are proposing. What's bad about keeping the way things are and then have a separate 4A and 3A state tournament?

ARSoccer25

Quote from: VHSCoach2 on May 15, 2017, 01:16:34 pm
This new proposal, that hopefully falls by the wayside in the end, has me, and many other coaches that I know, changing tune on the blended conferences.

The majority that I have talked to are in favor of keeping the current blend rather than joining the current 6A with the top 16 5A, etc. all the way down.

I would much rather keep the blended conferences than the new proposal. It would be really tough for the 5a schools to compete with Benton, Jonesborro, Russellville, and Siloam.

Ladyfan


VHSCoach2

I've heard a rumor of a proposal to change the way yellow cards are handled.  If I heard correctly, the proposal is that if a player is shown a yellow card, they will no longer be mandated to leave the pitch.

I'd be in favor of this change if it happened.

MDXPHD

In high school, it seems pointless to make them leave the field when they mostly just go right back in.

sssuperpantherfan2

Playing tough teams makes you better, roll the bean footage and imitate the plays and moves. Playing equal teams may not help the team or individual get better. One member commented about how their team doesn't pass well, drop the ball back and work it back to the defense or goalie, cross the ball for a shot on goal. They see a better team and get beat, you learn from it. Crying to the AAA is the lazy way out and working with kids to improve their game.  We will see changes in the teams as kids graduate or move away or drop out of soccer for something else. No team is unbeatable and loosing is not a bad thing if you learn from it and improve your game, don't teach the kids to give up.

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