• Welcome to Fearless Friday Bulletin Boards. Please login or sign up.

 FF is powered by:        Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time

Started by AB™, June 05, 2011, 03:02:05 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

AB™

Just because we've littered the playoffs thread with this type of discussion.  I'm actually interested to see some other top 10-15 lists. 

I'm a pretty big NBA junkie and have worked on a fluid top 25 list for the last few years and it's always changing.  So many players/situations that I consider a virtual toss-up (Wilt or Russell?  Bird or Magic? etc.) always have me flip-flopping players every time I read something new on them. 

I'm going to at least do my top 15 (five at a time) but would love to see some other top 10-15 lists.  I know Rattler is a long time NBA fan and it appears we've got some others.  Hopefully it can make for some good discussion.

RATTLER43

June 05, 2011, 05:58:21 pm #1 Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 06:42:44 pm by RATTLER43
You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.

southdog

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 05:58:21 pm
You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons. His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.
=1 on this list good one

RATTLER43

Leaving Oscar Robertson and Jerry West off a top 10 list was very tough but each won only 1 title. Even Wilt won 2. The rest of my picks were great individually and won titles galore.

Wade, Dirk, and Nash are players not on the list that may or may not deserve inclusion but still have time in careers to move up. Nash being at the end may enter or remain on that top 25 bubble. If Dirk wins a title I think he moves in due to being so unguardable for years and years. Wade, barring catastrophe, will enter. He, in my opinion, is the most spectacular player to watch in the NBA right now. If he gets another title this year he moves up immediately. If he wins 3 or 4 more then......

JC PIMP


RATTLER43

He is at #25. Barely made the list. How in the world could he make top 10 on anyone's list?

I hope I am reading sarcasm in that post.

RATTLER43

MJ - 6 titles
Kareem - 6 titles
Magic - 5
Bird - 3
Kobe - 5
Russell - 11
Shaq - 4
Wilt - 2
Duncan - 4
Dr. J  - 2 ABA, 1 NBA

Lebron - 0

Lebron made my list and his awards match Nash's. 2 MVPs. NO titles. Great players but not top 10, yet for Lebron. Ask again in 5 years.

RATTLER43

PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

RATTLER43

Dr. J could easily move up the list:
In his five ABA seasons, Erving won three scoring titles, three Most Valuable Player Awards and two league championships. During his 11-year NBA career Erving was an All-Star each season, the league's Most Valuable Player in 1981 and a five-time member of the All-NBA First Team. He scored 30,026 points in his combined ABA and NBA career; only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan have scored more points in the history of professional basketball.

Also lost in finals in 77, 80, and 82.

I also left Rick Barry off my list. He is top 25 all-time. Lebron is now off the list.

southdog

what about elgin baylor as honorable mention?

RATTLER43

Good call. He was awesome. Guess how many titles he won?

I still put him ahead of I. Thomas in my top 25.

AB™

I have a top 12 spot reserved for LeBron but, for now, I have him slotted in my top 30.  The top 25 list I've worked on for a couple of years is always changing, and LeBron just crept into the top 25 after he won his second consecutive MVP.  Had he won a third straight this year, then I'd have him in my top 15-20 even without a championship.  As soon as he starts winning rings (and it's inevitable with the Miami super team) then he'll move into that elite top 12-15 for good.

Rattler, I like your list and don't have any complaints with it.  I have such a hard time ranking players like Dr. J who spent much of their prime in the ABA since I wasn't alive to actually watch them play.  All I have to go by is what I read and their stats.  Dr. J was a 28/12/5/2/2 player in the ABA, what does that translate to in the NBA?  Is that a 25/10/4/2/1.5 in the NBA, or worse?  I don't know. 

There are three players from that same era that I have so many "what if" questions about.

1.  Bill Walton - What if his career wasn't completely derailed by injuries?  Portland won the championship in 1977.  What a lot of people forget, though, is the following year Portland raced out to something like a 50-10 record before Walton was injured and sidelined for the rest of the season.  They were more than likely going to cruise to a second straight title with Walton as the man.  And, since Seattle won the '79 title, it's not out of the realm of possibility to think the Blazers could have won three straight from '77-'79 with a healthy Bill Walton.  Seattle deserves credit for their championship but they weren't great by NBA champion standards.  Oh, and don't forget the Blazers drafted Moses Malone in the ABA Dispersal Draft and then traded him.  So, imagine if Walton never had injury problems, and if the Blazers had kept Malone??  We're talking about arguably the greatest frontcourt ever.   

2.  What if Pete Maravich had been able to stay healthy, and what if he played in the three-point line era?  I've read two Pete Maravich biographies and he had range for days.  It said even in college, without a three point line, he would bring the ball up the floor and pull-up on a dime, and drop a jumper in from 25 feet out like it was nothing.  He had a six year stretch where he averaged 26.5 ppg, including a 31.1 ppg season in 1976-1977...WITHOUT a three point line.  I think it's safe to assume that a prime Maravich with a three point line is a 28/5/5 player.  Maravich was so innovative and so far ahead of his time as a player.  And people also forget he Dr. J were almost teammates in Atlanta.  Erving had gotten away from his ABA contract with the Virginia Squires and was set to join Maravich in Atlanta.  He even played some preseason games with the Hawks before it was ruled he legally had to honor his contract and return to the Squires.  Has there ever been a two players more tailor made to play with each other than Pete Maravich and Julius Erving? 

3.  And that leads me to Julius Erving...what if he had played his entire career in the NBA.  I think we're talking about a prime Erving who would have been putting up 26/11/4/2/1 in his prime.  If he puts up those numbers for a 7 or 8 year stretch while winning a couple of championships, then we're talking about a top 8 player all-time. 

Rattler, no offense, but I personally can't put Erving in my top 10 because it's so hard for me to figure how a player's numbers and brilliance in the ABA would have transformed to the NBA.  However, he is in my top 15.  I'll try and get my top 5 up later tonight or tomorrow sometime.

Ex-HAplayer

1. Michael Jordan
2.  Wilt
3. Bill Russell
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kobe
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Kareem
9. Jerry "the logo" West
10. Tim Duncan

RATTLER43


RATTLER43


RATTLER43

AB, Dr. J was drafted by Milwaukee originally. Can you imagine Kareem, Oscar, and Dr. J on same team. That would have been a assist dream for Big O.

I had the luxury of getting to watch the good Doctor play. He was the real deal. With top 15 I am good. That is why I said he could be top 3 but I have him at 10 because I cannot tell what those years would have been like against NBA defenses either.

RATTLER43

I wish the Pistol had gotten to play with great teams and such. I read in a book once where they were discussing the finals and said that Pete finally got to the finals with the celtics but he was all out of bullets. Sad commentary. Walton got to them in time to contribute.

Walton was a great player who found that perfect fit. It happens from time to time.

DJ, Sikma, Unseld, and Hayes could easily fit into my top 30. I watched those championship series at my grandparents house......tape delayed!!!!!

RATTLER43

I have always wondered about David Thompson had drugs/injuries not destroyed his career. His first 5 years.....

AB™

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 08:30:07 pm
I wish the Pistol had gotten to play with great teams and such. I read in a book once where they were discussing the finals and said that Pete finally got to the finals with the celtics but he was all out of bullets. Sad commentary. Walton got to them in time to contribute.

Walton was a great player who found that perfect fit. It happens from time to time.

DJ, Sikma, Unseld, and Hayes could easily fit into my top 30. I watched those championship series at my grandparents house......tape delayed!!!!!

Yeah, I don't want to discredit the Bullets and Sonics championship teams because, between them, they had a handful of great players.  The Bullets had Elvin Hayes, Bob Dandridge and a  past his prime Wes Unseld.  The Sonics had Gus Johnson, Jack Sikma and Dennis Johnson.  That's six top 50-100 players.  However, when your ranking all of the NBA champions, those two teams tend to find themselves at the bottom of most lists. 

Something of note that I've read more than once is the discussion of just how good were the 1970-1971 Milwaukee Bucks (66-16, Kareem, Oscar & Bob Dandridge) and the 1971-1972 Lakers (69-13, Kareem and West)?  That era is widely regarded as the weakest era in NBA history.  The league was a bit watered down due to the ABA and some think both teams' gaudy records are a little bit bolstered by a weakened league.  Don't get me wrong, I think both teams are great, but I have a hard time ranking them among the best championship teams of all-time. 

RATTLER43

Actually, the NBA only had a handful of good teams. Those were good. I thought the Jo Jo White/Cowens Celts, Bullets, and Sonics of mid and late 70s were weaker. Any teams compared to Magic/Kareem Lakers, Bird Celts, Sixers of that era that followed them appear weak. The Celts and Lakers that preceded them were loaded as the league was smaller. They happen to fall during NBA expansion and ABA years. Gilmore, Dr J, Iceman, Moses Malone, Issel, etc.

AB™

June 05, 2011, 10:54:30 pm #20 Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 10:56:11 pm by AB™
1.  Michael Jordan

Stats
30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.8 bpg, .497/.327/.835
Career PER of 27.9


Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  6 
All-Star Games:  14 
All-Star Game MVP:  3 
MVP Top 5:  11 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1 
1st Team All-Defense:  9 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0 

The history of the NBA is forever remembered by its great big men.  My top 10 has six big men and there are seven in my top 11.  A great 6'10"+ big man has the ability to dominate a game on both ends of the floor like no other position due to a mixture of great size, athleticism, and tools.  So, for a 6'6" shooting guard to be the best player of all-time he had to be pretty special, on both ends of the floor.  And, as we all know, Michael Jordan was exactly that.  There are exactly two players in NBA history with a career scoring average of 30+ ppg.  Wilt Chamberlain, who statistically dominated the league like no other player before or since, is the other.  But it wasn't just Jordan's incredible scoring ability that made him a special player.  Jordan is already considered the best scoring perimeter player of all-time, however, many also consider him the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, too.  Jordan three times lead the NBA in steals and, during the height of the "Golden Age" of NBA big men was also able to snag a Defensive Player of the Year honor.  And some think he deserved a second, a rarity for a shooting guard.  Unfortunately Jordan's brilliant career coincided with that of great defensive centers like Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.  That still didn't keep Jordan from being named to nine defensive first teams and being a devastating on-ball defender along with being a great shot-blocking guard. 

Jordan, as we all know, was 6-0 in his career in NBA Championship series.   Had he not taken a needless baseball sabbatical during the height of his career, then it's very hard to say he would not have won eight straight NBA Championships and eight straight Finals MVPs.  One thing Jordan was able to do that other great guards throughout NBA history couldn't do, was raise his level of play and his better his regular season numbers in the playoffs.  People are forever wanting to compare Kobe Bryant to Jordan but, unlike Jordan, Kobe's numbers are actually slightly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season.

No surprises here, the consensus G.O.A.T is my number one.



2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Stats     
24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.6 bpg, .559/.721
Career PER of 24.6

Accolades
MVP:  6 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  19 
All-Star Game MVP:  0 
MVP Top 5:  15 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  5
1st Team All-Defense:  5 
2nd Team All-Defense:  6

What if Kareem had been beloved by the media and fans instead of alienating so many people?  I mean Kareem had an absolutely brilliant career.  He put up big numbers and won championships.  A beloved - as opposed to disliked - Kareem would surely challenge Jordan's greatest of all-time status, wouldn't he?  At his peak Kareem was a 30 ppg, 15 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 1 spg type player.  Had the beginning and prime of his career come 10 years earlier in the very fast paced 1960's, then there would have been two centers putting up 40/20 seasons.  One thing that separates him from Wilt, though, is that Kareem seemingly had "it".  Wherever he went his team's won championships.  Sure, he needed an aging Oscar Robertson and an underrated and young Bob Dandridge to win in Milwuakee; and sure, he needed Magic Johnson to win in Los Angeles, but Kareem won championships wherever he went.

The deciding factor for me, though, in ranking Kareem ahead of great big men like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain is just how good he was for so long.  He won his first Finals MVP in 1971 and his final one in 1988.  Most players don't have careers that last 14 years and Kareem won Finals MVP's 14 years apart.  I highly doubt we'll ever see another player be so great for so long.



3.  Bill Russell 

Stats
15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, .440/.561
Career PER of 18.9

Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  11
Finals MVP:  N/A 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  12 
1st Team All-NBA:  N/A 
2nd Team All-NBA:  N/A
1st Team All-Defense:  N/A 
2nd Team All-Defense:  N/A

For arguably the greatest defensive player to ever play the game it's a shame things like blocks, steals, and All-NBA/All-Defense teams weren't recorded.  Many people claim that Russell (and Wilt) very well may have been averaging 8+ bpg in their prime.  Russell is forever the master of the lost-art of blocking a shot to a teammate in order to spur a fastbreak, instead of sending it into the stands.  Every thing I've read on that era states that Wilt had a way of completely taking over and dominating a game on the defensive end like no other player before or since.  If there is one player in NBA history that transcends stats as a measure for their greatness, it's Bill Russell. 

Russell is the greatest champion in team sports history.  He was the "Alpha Dog" on 11 championship teams.  It took Auerbach's retirement after the 1966 Finals and Russell serving double-duty as player and coach for Wilt Chamberlain to end the Celtics eight year streak of championships.  It was short lived, though, as Russell's Celtics won the next to championships with Russell serving as a player and head coach.  Then, on his last legs at 34 years old, Russell willed his Celtics to one last championship in the 1968-1969 season.


4.  Magic Johnson 

Stats
19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.4 bpg, .520/.303/.848
Career PER of 24.1

Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  5
Finals MVP:  3 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  2 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0

Never again will we see a 6'9" facilitating point-guard on the level of Magic Johnson.  When talking about the most unique players in NBA history, Magic Johnson might lead the list.  Magic made a huge statement and left a huge mark on the league in perhaps the most memorable NBA Finals performance in NBA history.  As a rookie in the 1980 Finals the Los Angeles Lakers were sans-Kareem.  Stepping in as the starting center in his absence?  The team's regular point-guard, of course, and Magic did not disappoint.  Magic recorded a remarkable 42 point, 15 rebound, 7 assist performance in the closing game against the 76ers in those finals.  And that was just the beginning.

Magic's early career came as playing facilitator/team-leader as Kareem still assumed the "Alpha Dog" go-to scorer role.  As perhaps the most versatile player in NBA history, Magic flirted with a triple-double average in three of his first four seasons.  Highlighted by an 18/9.5/9.5 season in 1981-1982, Magic was the very definition of an all-around player.  Even his lacking on-ball defensive skills were made-up with his great ball instincts and averaging 2.5 steals per game in his first five seasons. 

The one - and only - thing that slightly separates Magic from Bird in my eyes is two more championships and one more Finals MVP.  Magic was even able to lead his 1990-1991 Lakers (a far different supporting cast than his Showtime Lakers) to the NBA Finals where they were beat by Jordan's upstart Bulls.  Magic was the consummate team player and leader during his 13 year career.



5.  Larry Bird

Stats
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, .496/.376/.886
Career PER of 23.5

Accolades
Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  3
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  3

I personally consider Larry Bird the greatest passing forward and the best forward in the NBA history, although LeBron is seriously threatening the former.  Peak Larry Bird was a 27/11/7 player who could hurt teams from anywhere on the floor.  Bird was just as lethal at hurting teams with a devastating jump-shot as he was picking apart defenses with pinpoint passes to a teammate.  Many people also don't realize Bird is a career 20/10 player, never averaging fewer than 8.5 rebounds as a heavy-footed 6'9" small-forward. 

I personally consider the 1985-1986 Boston Celtics as the greatest team of all-time, and Larry Bird was the leader of that team.  His relentless killer instinct rivals that of a Michael Jordan and, like Jordan, he demanded excellence from his teammates.  He also had a reputation of completely gutting a team with a big shot and telling his defender when and where the shot was coming from.  Unfortunately his brilliant career was derailed by chronic back issues.  Bird was reaching his zenith - statistically - in the late 1980's just as major back problems put a stop to his rise to the top.  However, even though he was playing in excruciating pain most nights, Bird averaged 20/9/7 in his final three seasons with the Celtics.   

Hoghead

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Dr. J
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6. Wilt Chamberlin
7. Jerry West
8. Karl Malone
9. Oscar Robinson
10. Akeem Olujaun

Ex-HAplayer

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

Hoghead

Quote from: Ex-HAplayer on June 06, 2011, 01:27:32 am
Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

Loved me some BOBBY JONES !!!  Dude would dunk on you, block your shot, D you up, Post you up and never say a word ! He never got enough credit. He did all of this while suffering from epilepsy. Bobby Jones was a straight up BALLER !

Chosen 1


RATTLER43

Quote from: AB™ on June 05, 2011, 10:54:30 pm
1.  Michael Jordan

Stats
30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.8 bpg, .497/.327/.835
Career PER of 27.9


Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  6 
All-Star Games:  14 
All-Star Game MVP:  3 
MVP Top 5:  11 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1 
1st Team All-Defense:  9 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0 

The history of the NBA is forever remembered by its great big men.  My top 10 has six big men and there are seven in my top 11.  A great 6'10"+ big man has the ability to dominate a game on both ends of the floor like no other position due to a mixture of great size, athleticism, and tools.  So, for a 6'6" shooting guard to be the best player of all-time he had to be pretty special, on both ends of the floor.  And, as we all know, Michael Jordan was exactly that.  There are exactly two players in NBA history with a career scoring average of 30+ ppg.  Wilt Chamberlain, who statistically dominated the league like no other player before or since, is the other.  But it wasn't just Jordan's incredible scoring ability that made him a special player.  Jordan is already considered the best scoring perimeter player of all-time, however, many also consider him the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, too.  Jordan three times lead the NBA in steals and, during the height of the "Golden Age" of NBA big men was also able to snag a Defensive Player of the Year honor.  And some think he deserved a second, a rarity for a shooting guard.  Unfortunately Jordan's brilliant career coincided with that of great defensive centers like Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.  That still didn't keep Jordan from being named to nine defensive first teams and being a devastating on-ball defender along with being a great shot-blocking guard. 

Jordan, as we all know, was 6-0 in his career in NBA Championship series.   Had he not taken a needless baseball sabbatical during the height of his career, then it's very hard to say he would not have won eight straight NBA Championships and eight straight Finals MVPs.  One thing Jordan was able to do that other great guards throughout NBA history couldn't do, was raise his level of play and his better his regular season numbers in the playoffs.  People are forever wanting to compare Kobe Bryant to Jordan but, unlike Jordan, Kobe's numbers are actually slightly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season.

No surprises here, the consensus G.O.A.T is my number one.



2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Stats     
24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.6 bpg, .559/.721
Career PER of 24.6

Accolades
MVP:  6 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  19 
All-Star Game MVP:  0 
MVP Top 5:  15 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  5
1st Team All-Defense:  5 
2nd Team All-Defense:  6

What if Kareem had been beloved by the media and fans instead of alienating so many people?  I mean Kareem had an absolutely brilliant career.  He put up big numbers and won championships.  A beloved - as opposed to disliked - Kareem would surely challenge Jordan's greatest of all-time status, wouldn't he?  At his peak Kareem was a 30 ppg, 15 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 1 spg type player.  Had the beginning and prime of his career come 10 years earlier in the very fast paced 1960's, then there would have been two centers putting up 40/20 seasons.  One thing that separates him from Wilt, though, is that Kareem seemingly had "it".  Wherever he went his team's won championships.  Sure, he needed an aging Oscar Robertson and an underrated and young Bob Dandridge to win in Milwuakee; and sure, he needed Magic Johnson to win in Los Angeles, but Kareem won championships wherever he went.

The deciding factor for me, though, in ranking Kareem ahead of great big men like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain is just how good he was for so long.  He won his first Finals MVP in 1971 and his final one in 1988.  Most players don't have careers that last 14 years and Kareem won Finals MVP's 14 years apart.  I highly doubt we'll ever see another player be so great for so long.



3.  Bill Russell 

Stats
15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, .440/.561
Career PER of 18.9

Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  11
Finals MVP:  N/A 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  12 
1st Team All-NBA:  N/A 
2nd Team All-NBA:  N/A
1st Team All-Defense:  N/A 
2nd Team All-Defense:  N/A

For arguably the greatest defensive player to ever play the game it's a shame things like blocks, steals, and All-NBA/All-Defense teams weren't recorded.  Many people claim that Russell (and Wilt) very well may have been averaging 8+ bpg in their prime.  Russell is forever the master of the lost-art of blocking a shot to a teammate in order to spur a fastbreak, instead of sending it into the stands.  Every thing I've read on that era states that Wilt had a way of completely taking over and dominating a game on the defensive end like no other player before or since.  If there is one player in NBA history that transcends stats as a measure for their greatness, it's Bill Russell. 

Russell is the greatest champion in team sports history.  He was the "Alpha Dog" on 11 championship teams.  It took Auerbach's retirement after the 1966 Finals and Russell serving double-duty as player and coach for Wilt Chamberlain to end the Celtics eight year streak of championships.  It was short lived, though, as Russell's Celtics won the next to championships with Russell serving as a player and head coach.  Then, on his last legs at 34 years old, Russell willed his Celtics to one last championship in the 1968-1969 season.


4.  Magic Johnson 

Stats
19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.4 bpg, .520/.303/.848
Career PER of 24.1

Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  5
Finals MVP:  3 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  2 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0

Never again will we see a 6'9" facilitating point-guard on the level of Magic Johnson.  When talking about the most unique players in NBA history, Magic Johnson might lead the list.  Magic made a huge statement and left a huge mark on the league in perhaps the most memorable NBA Finals performance in NBA history.  As a rookie in the 1980 Finals the Los Angeles Lakers were sans-Kareem.  Stepping in as the starting center in his absence?  The team's regular point-guard, of course, and Magic did not disappoint.  Magic recorded a remarkable 42 point, 15 rebound, 7 assist performance in the closing game against the 76ers in those finals.  And that was just the beginning.

Magic's early career came as playing facilitator/team-leader as Kareem still assumed the "Alpha Dog" go-to scorer role.  As perhaps the most versatile player in NBA history, Magic flirted with a triple-double average in three of his first four seasons.  Highlighted by an 18/9.5/9.5 season in 1981-1982, Magic was the very definition of an all-around player.  Even his lacking on-ball defensive skills were made-up with his great ball instincts and averaging 2.5 steals per game in his first five seasons. 

The one - and only - thing that slightly separates Magic from Bird in my eyes is two more championships and one more Finals MVP.  Magic was even able to lead his 1990-1991 Lakers (a far different supporting cast than his Showtime Lakers) to the NBA Finals where they were beat by Jordan's upstart Bulls.  Magic was the consummate team player and leader during his 13 year career.



5.  Larry Bird

Stats
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, .496/.376/.886
Career PER of 23.5

Accolades
Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  3
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  3

I personally consider Larry Bird the greatest passing forward and the best forward in the NBA history, although LeBron is seriously threatening the former.  Peak Larry Bird was a 27/11/7 player who could hurt teams from anywhere on the floor.  Bird was just as lethal at hurting teams with a devastating jump-shot as he was picking apart defenses with pinpoint passes to a teammate.  Many people also don't realize Bird is a career 20/10 player, never averaging fewer than 8.5 rebounds as a heavy-footed 6'9" small-forward. 

I personally consider the 1985-1986 Boston Celtics as the greatest team of all-time, and Larry Bird was the leader of that team.  His relentless killer instinct rivals that of a Michael Jordan and, like Jordan, he demanded excellence from his teammates.  He also had a reputation of completely gutting a team with a big shot and telling his defender when and where the shot was coming from.  Unfortunately his brilliant career was derailed by chronic back issues.  Bird was reaching his zenith - statistically - in the late 1980's just as major back problems put a stop to his rise to the top.  However, even though he was playing in excruciating pain most nights, Bird averaged 20/9/7 in his final three seasons with the Celtics.   

I always can appreciate your discussions. This one, too, is a good one. I wish Bird had not gotten injured so we could have seen how it played out. I always thought the Lakers that followed that Celtics group and the group that preceded it were the best of all-time. I suspect that most  people who have followed NBA put the Lakers, Celtics, or Sixers of the 80s as best. It is not for reasons most would think. It is because they stockpiled talent back then. It is not conceivable now with the costs.

Byron Scott
Magic Johnson 
Ronnie Lester
Michael Cooper
A.C. Green
James Worthy
Jerome Henderson
Kurt Rambis
Larry Spriggs
Maurice Lucas
Mike McGee
Mitch Kupchak
Chuck Nevitt
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Petur Gudmundsson

or

Byron Scott
Eddie Jordan
Magic Johnson
Michael Cooper
Calvin Garrett
Jamaal Wilkes
James Worthy
Kurt Rambis 
Larry Spriggs
Mike McGee
Mitch Kupchak
Bob McAdoo 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Swen Nater


RATTLER43

Quote from: Chosen 1 on June 06, 2011, 01:40:50 am
1. Michael Jordan

2. Everybody else

I have MJ at #1 but Kareem at 1B. If you watched each of them play for the best 12 years of their respective careers without listening to the media you would realize the greatness of each. Coaches who had to prepare for Abdul-Jabbar had no answers at either end of the floor. MJ has been discussed ad nauseum so I need not go on about his greatness.

RATTLER43

Quote from: Hoghead on June 06, 2011, 01:38:53 am
Quote from: Ex-HAplayer on June 06, 2011, 01:27:32 am
Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

Loved me some BOBBY JONES !!!  Dude would dunk on you, block your shot, D you up, Post you up and never say a word ! He never got enough credit. He did all of this while suffering from epilepsy. Bobby Jones was a straight up BALLER !

Glad to know another FF poster saw him play. He was great. Did his job with total excellence and as you said"never said a word".

RATTLER43

Byron Scott
Eddie Jordan
Magic Johnson
Michael Cooper
Calvin Garrett
Jamaal Wilkes
James Worthy
Kurt Rambis 
Larry Spriggs
Mike McGee
Mitch Kupchak
Bob McAdoo 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Swen Nater

greatest PG and Center ever, Defensive Player of the Year(Cooper), All Star in Wilkes, Top 50 All Time in Worthy, NBA MVP off the bench in McAdoo, and great bench with Nater and Kuptchak as bigs plus great role players in Rambis and McGee.

RATTLER43

Quote from: Ex-HAplayer on June 06, 2011, 01:27:32 am
Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

He can take Gervin's place. I told you I only put him on there because I liked him so much. Wade is great.

Nemesis

I would take Wade over James or Kobe.  He's as complete of a player than either of those two imo.

Wade, MJ, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Bird, Dr J, Barkley, Kobe, Pippen are my favs

RATTLER43

Not a bad list at all. If Wade wins another title this year it moves him into another echelon.

Father Guido

Since the guys still playing are still working on their legacy, it's kinda hard to speculate just where they will ultimately fit in, so for simplicity sake, I'm gonna leave em out.

Jabaar
MJ
Russell
Bird
Magic
Oscar
Dr. J
Cousy
Shaq
West

Some of my favorites to watch were Bobby Jones, Gervin, Worthy, Shaq, Elgin Baylor...

RATTLER43

Another Bobby Jones fan! Loving it. Stats do not give the complete info. This guy could flat out play basketball.

AB™

RATTLER, I don't think you can go wrong picking one of those Laker teams and calling them the best ever.  I personally like the Lakers team that featured McAdoo as a 6th man.

If Wade not only wins another championship this year, but also wins Finals MVP, then it will be very hard to keep him out of the to 10-15 discussion when his career wraps up.  LeBron has been great in the Finals (and better overall in the entire playoffs than Wade) but Wade has been the best player for Miami in the finals.  If the series were to end right now he would be my Finals MVP.  That would give Wade two championships and two Finals MVPs at the age of 29.  For comparison's sake, Jordan won his second championship and second Finals MVP at 28 years old.

RATTLER43

I have been thinking along those lines as well. I am a Wade fan and recognize that he is great and then steps it up in the finals both times. Goes a long way in my book to "rise to the occasion" in the championship.

On the Lakers/Celtics of that era, I think I give the nod to the Lakers over the Cs due to winning more titles only. The same goes to choosing both of them over the Sixers of the era. All three were great. I have a fourth team from the exact era that I believe could have won titles in 70s and in this season: Milwaukee Bucks with Marquis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Bob Lanier, and company  followed by the Moncrief, Cummings, Pressey group. They could not get past those loaded Celtics or Sixers but were loaded themselves. The playoffs were awesome during the era.

RATTLER43

For those who don't know, Sidney Moncrief was about as good as it gets after MJ at that 2 guard but only did it for a limited amount of time. He just missed out on being voted into the Hall years ago. He lacked longevity. I still remember the SI issue where it was stated that in his earlier years that Moncrief defended MJ better than any other player in the league.

RATTLER43

Danny Ainge
Larry Bird
Rick Carlisle
Dennis Johnson
Greg Kite
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Jerry Sichting
David Thirdkill
Sam Vincent 
Bill Walton
Scott Wedman
Sly Williams

Pretty incredible indeed. The Sixers of the era had:
Maurice Cheeks
Bobby Jones
Dr. J
Moses Malone
Andrew Toney

Bobby Jones is the all-time ABA FG pct. leader. He led the NBA his second season there. All D 1st team 8 consecutive years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

Earlier it was mentioned that MJ won Def. player of the year. Moncrief won it twice. Not saying he was even in the same range as MJ. Just saying that Moncrief was very good player.

RATTLER43

I read an article about David Thompson taking quarters off of a backboard. I heard the same about Moncrief back in the 70s. Never saw it but heard it from many.

RATTLER43

Jo Jo White
Tiny Archibald
Bernard King
Paul Westphal
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Rudy T.

Who else you got that was awesome but not top 25? Bernard King was unstoppable for a few years. Gilmore led in FG pct. Issel was great athlete and transition beast among centers. Tiny led in scoring and assists.

InYoGrill

Wow Ratt I didn't realize you were an NBA junkie as well as track. Your list of players really hits hard when I followed the NBA in my life with all the tv games, newspaper stats, and basketball card collecting. Basically 80-95 or so is when I really got into the NBA. Not so much now. I hate all the trading with the players jumping ship so often. My team back in the day was the 76ers. Loved me some great Sunday afternoon Sixer games with DRJ,Choc Thunder, BJ, Toney and Cheeks. 

RATTLER43

June 06, 2011, 10:29:28 pm #41 Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 10:40:11 pm by RATTLER43
I have gone through eras in my life:
Baseball ruled until 1976. I was a huge Mays, Ryan, Cedeno, Brooks Robinson, Carew, etc. fan.
Then I picked up a basketball.... Kareem, Dr. J for years until Magic, Super Sid, Bird, and MJ came along...
Then I began coaching track and field in the late 80s. I had always loved watching it but fell in love with it when I came to realization of the purity of the sport.
Have loved football from the days of Staubach.
I can discuss tennis going back to Borg and Connors but lost interest somewhere along the way.
I was into hockey for those college years in mid80s when I would get home from closing the store and ESPN would be showing the Edmonton Oilers in their heyday.
Love my Hogs at everything along with my Rattlers.

But, track is my passion. I can talk it non-stop.

Now, back to the NBA......

RATTLER43

Has anyone mentioned Wilkins?

'nique, that is.

InYoGrill


What about the "Mailman" Karl Malone? He came very close to being a Hog during recruiting.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

AB™

June 06, 2011, 11:04:59 pm #44 Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 01:58:39 am by AB™
Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 06, 2011, 10:01:20 pm
Jo Jo White
Tiny Archibald
Bernard King
Paul Westphal
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Rudy T.

Who else you got that was awesome but not top 25? Bernard King was unstoppable for a few years. Gilmore led in FG pct. Issel was great athlete and transition beast among centers. Tiny led in scoring and assists.

I don't know if they're the best but my personal favorite non-top 25-35 players (or even top 50 for that matter)....

David Thompson - Another player who started in the ABA, was on track as a 25/5/4/1/1/50%+ player before having his career ruined by a knee injury.  I've read so many "tall-tale" type stories about David Thompson and how great he might have really been.  He was All-NBA his first couple of years in the NBA and, as Bill Simmons points out in his book, had made "the leap" at the same ages (22-24) as all the other elite athletic type SG's in NBA history -- Jordan, Kobe, AI, McGrady, Wade, etc. 

Bernard King - A lot of what I've read on him and what little I've seen of him, he was apparently Carmelo Anthony before Carmelo Anthony.  An elite scorer that could score from anywhere on the court in anyway you'd need him to score the ball. 

Alex English - In the entire decade of the 1980's no NBA player scored more points than Alex English

Paul Westphal - A great scorer who seems to get lost in the shuffle sometimes when talking about some of the former greats, but he was the best player on the Phoenix team that lost in the Finals in the 1970's (can't remember the exact year). 

Mark Aguirre - Some people forget that the Mavericks didn't always suck before Dirk came along in 1998, and Mark Aguirre was the reason why.  Like so many other underrated players from that era, he was a terrific scorer but left something to be desired on the defensive end of the floor.

Sidney Moncrief - One, he's a former Razorback but, had he not caught the injury bug, he would have been the best SG the first 5 or 6 years of the 1980's before Jordan came along.  Not only was he a 20 ppg scorer in his prime but he was also the best perimeter defender in the NBA.  I still don't understand how he's not in the Hall of Fame.

Adrian Dantley - A 6'4" hybrid type player who made a living with an array of low-post moves.  He was essentially a very undersized PF who still killed opponents with a back to the basket game.

Dave Debusschere - One of the most versatile defenders to ever play the game.   He's probably the most forgotten about and least talked about player from the great Knicks teams of the 1970's.


Those are some off the top of my head.  I'll remember 5 or 6 more over the next day or two, I'm sure. 

Hoghead

Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

Father Guido

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 06, 2011, 08:15:31 pm
Another Bobby Jones fan! Loving it. Stats do not give the complete info. This guy could flat out play basketball.

Along those lines, speaking of Defense, I use to love the Bulls back court of Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier.  Both of them hard nosed, in your face on the ball defenders. Bill Russell best big man defender.  Olojuwan close...and Nate Thurman.

Coach Venny Slocombe

My Favorites...

1. Magic
2. West
3. Jordan
4. Wilt
5. Maravich
6. Bird
7. Jabbar
8. Kobe
9. Russell
10. Dr. J

How about honorable mention
John Havlicek
Alex English
Earle "The Pearl" Monroe
Connie Hawkins
Artis Gilmore
George McGinnis
Maurice Lucas
Billy Cunningham
Spencer Haywood
Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes
Robert Parrish
Charles Barkley
Paul Westphal
Willis Reed
Walt Frazier

olddog79

^ good to see Havlicek on someone's list

AB™

Quote from: Hoghead on June 07, 2011, 07:47:16 am
Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

I didn't see Bernard King play in his prime, but you're exactly the type of poster who would say the older version is always better than the newer version.  In my personal top player rankings Bernard King would rank higher than Carmelo, but let's not sit here and act like Carmelo isn't tough and can't score from anywhere on the floor.  He can shoot the three, has a very salty mid-range pull-up jumper, and can score in the low-post.  Players dread guarding Carmelo, too, because he has no weaknesses on the offensive end of the floor.

Carmelo doesn't play a lot of defense but I can't recall ever hearing about Bernard King being a defensive standout. 

Fox 16 Arkansas Fox 24 Arkansas