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Tom Brady

Started by dirtybird12, January 21, 2019, 10:45:42 am

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dirtybird12

Is there really any argument against him being ruled the greatest of all time?

RATTLER43

January 21, 2019, 01:11:24 pm #1 Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 03:13:25 pm by RATTLER43
NO!   

It cannot be argued well.  Brady is the best in my opinion.

I am a lifelong Cowboys fan.  I am old.  Staubach is my favorite football player of all-time.  Winning, leadership, and intangibles play a big part.  Stats compared to other QB's in the era are a part.  Rules for the era and the culture of the game in any era play a role in my evaluation.  But, winning is my top ingredient.   Had Marino won a few super bowls, he might be in my top 4.   Tarkenton is very similar.     Look at Otto Graham.  Took Browns to 10 consecutive championship games winning 7!!!!   Then Staubach did nothing but win in an era when you had 5 or 6 GREAT (Cowboys, Steelers, Raiders, Dolphins, Vikings, Rams and occasionally the Redskins) teams.   Getting to all of those NFC championships and Super Bowls was amazing.   Enough rambling and on to my list.

Brady
Staubach
Montana
Graham
P. Manning
Elway
Favre
Marino
Unitas
Brees

Bradshaw, Aikman, Young, Stabler, Starr, Dawson, Rothlesberger, Kelly, Rodgers, Baugh, Luckman, Anderson, Fouts, Tarkenton, Jurgenson,  etc. are just outside my top  10 and pretty much round out my top 25.     

As you can see, I put winning as a big premium.  But, I believe that's what great quarterbacks do.   There are others who may not have had a chance to prove it by playing on poor teams.  But we may never know; we can only evaluate based upon what we see.

dirtybird12

I tend to agree with you for the most part. I will gladly throw for 200 yds a game and win than throw for 400 yds a game an go 8-8.


RATTLER43

Yep.   I might even take Bradshaw, Aikman, or Young over Brees but for now, I have him at #10.    That 10 spot is up for debate.

RATTLER43

I stand corrected.  It can be argued.      http://www.footballperspective.com/adjusting-passer-rating-for-era-part-v-the-results/

While I don't go by his statistical rating, I did use it in my rankings.  Passer ratings evaluate passing and not the total quarterback.  But any way you cut it, Graham was incredible.  The comments below it illuminate how impressive Staubach is due to the 70s being a "dead ball" era of pound the ball and criminal action by secondaries of the decade manhandling receivers.  For them to have Brady out of the top 10 though places too much emphasis on numbers and not winning.    Graham, due to his being in the championship game all ten seasons and winning 7, winning multiple MVPs, being the top rated all-time passer when he retired and then surpassed only by Staubach during the 70s before massive rule changes, plus being at the top of one man's adjusted ratings might be at the top for a few people.  I will leave my top 10 as is but still...   My top four are incredible by any means of evaluation.   

Lumberjackfan1978

Quote from: dirtybird12 on January 21, 2019, 10:45:42 am
Is there really any argument against him being ruled the greatest of all time?
Definitely not he is without a doubt the best of all time

dirtybird12

Bolstered by his unprecedented 6th ring.

sevenof400

Quote from: dirtybird12 on February 06, 2019, 01:06:04 pm
Bolstered by his unprecedented 6th ring.

But how do account for / rate / measure  for the losses? 

As the old saying goes, if Brady ain't the GOAT, calling roll in that class doesn't take long.

Rattler, I think you have Otto Graham too low and Montana has to be in this GOAT discussion as well. 

Trojanbird

There have been many great quarterbacks in years past, but none have had the supporting cast like Brady has!  To me he is a joy to watch when everything is clicking.  I just hope he has sense enough to retire when it is time.  I don't want to watch him go out like Brett Farve did.

dirtybird12

Quote from: Trojanbird on February 07, 2019, 07:59:01 am
There have been many great quarterbacks in years past, but none have had the supporting cast like Brady has!  To me he is a joy to watch when everything is clicking.  I just hope he has sense enough to retire when it is time.  I don't want to watch him go out like Brett Farve did.
Brady has done more with less than any of the great contemporary qb's of his era. He has NEVER had a hof receiver on his roster with the exception of Moss for the 2007 season. Which it should be noted during that year Brady broke about every record possible.

Give Brady the weapons Manning or Brees had throughout their careers and his stats would be greater and he could likely have at least one more title to his name.

Longfellow

Quote from: dirtybird12 on February 07, 2019, 11:42:03 am
Brady has done more with less than any of the great contemporary qb's of his era. He has NEVER had a hof receiver on his roster with the exception of Moss for the 2007 season. Which it should be noted during that year Brady broke about every record possible.

Give Brady the weapons Manning or Brees had throughout their careers and his stats would be greater and he could likely have at least one more title to his name.
Look, I've been a huge fan of Brady for almost 15 years, but this is and always has been a bad faith argument. The "hall of fame" qualifier leaves out pro bowlers and pro bowl caliber guys like Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Benjamin Watson, Julian Edelman, Aaron Hernandez (for all his evil, he could've been one of the best TE's ever), Gronkowski. And not to mention playing for one of the most consistent O-Lines in the 2000's. He's great. IMO, the greatest of all time. But the supporting cast argument doesn't hold up that well. Especially in the last 9 or 10 years

dirtybird12

Quote from: Longfellow on February 07, 2019, 12:36:39 pm
Look, I've been a huge fan of Brady for almost 15 years, but this is and always has been a bad faith argument. The "hall of fame" qualifier leaves out pro bowlers and pro bowl caliber guys like Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Benjamin Watson, Julian Edelman, Aaron Hernandez (for all his evil, he could've been one of the best TE's ever), Gronkowski. And not to mention playing for one of the most consistent O-Lines in the 2000's. He's great. IMO, the greatest of all time. But the supporting cast argument doesn't hold up that well. Especially in the last 9 or 10 years
I beg to differ. I believe, the aforementioned were 'system' players who benefited more from scheme than individual talent. Edelman has never made a pro bowl team. Look at how Welker fared with other organizations before being with the Patriots and after for that matter. Gronkowski is the exception.

RATTLER43

February 07, 2019, 10:13:46 pm #12 Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 10:18:48 pm by RATTLER43
Quote from: sevenof400 on February 06, 2019, 01:16:00 pm
But how do account for / rate / measure  for the losses? 

As the old saying goes, if Brady ain't the GOAT, calling roll in that class doesn't take long.

Rattler, I think you have Otto Graham too low and Montana has to be in this GOAT discussion as well. 

Ive got Montana #3 and Graham #4.  Where do you put Graham?   Anywhere in top 4 would work.  He was that good. 

Lumberjackfan1978

Quote from: Trojanbird on February 07, 2019, 07:59:01 am
There have been many great quarterbacks in years past, but none have had the supporting cast like Brady has!  To me he is a joy to watch when everything is clicking.  I just hope he has sense enough to retire when it is time.  I don't want to watch him go out like Brett Farve did.
I to hope he will retire when the time comes. I think he has at least 2 more good years left. I would like to see him get 2 more super bowl rings.

bleudog

Brady was a Chief lining up offsides from watching the 2019 Super Bowl from his GOAT pen.

He played a team in that Super Bowl was no call away from watching the 2019 Super Bowl from LaLaLand and was clearly overmatched at QB and HC when it advanced.

Now Brady's accumulation of accolades is impressive, but this new wave of debate is fueled in part by the stars lining up right at the end of the season.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: bleudog on February 08, 2019, 01:58:16 pm
Brady was a Chief lining up offsides from watching the 2019 Super Bowl from his GOAT pen.

He played a team in that Super Bowl was no call away from watching the 2019 Super Bowl from LaLaLand and was clearly overmatched at QB and HC when it advanced.

Now Brady's accumulation of accolades is impressive, but this new wave of debate is fueled in part by the stars lining up right at the end of the season.


Not his fault a pro player couldn't distinguish where the LOS was.....something that should be learned in Pee-Wee football 🤷

bleudog

Quote from: HorseFeathers on February 09, 2019, 10:04:31 am
Not his fault a pro player couldn't distinguish where the LOS was.....something that should be learned in Pee-Wee football 🤷

Bone head play of the year on the Chief's part.  Had the Chief lined up as he had learned in Pee-Wee, Brady's interception stands, Chiefs more than likely run out the clock and Brady isn't playing ball on February 3rd.

Certainly isn't Brady's fault, but an unlikely second chance that Brady benefited from and took advantage of. 


dirtybird12

Quote from: bleudog on February 09, 2019, 10:39:58 am
Bone head play of the year on the Chief's part.  Had the Chief lined up as he had learned in Pee-Wee, Brady's interception stands, Chiefs more than likely run out the clock and Brady isn't playing ball on February 3rd.

Certainly isn't Brady's fault, but an unlikely second chance that Brady benefited from and took advantage of.

You can play your best all year, you will still need several moments of luck along the way to win a title. What about that "lucky" catch David Tyree had for the Giant that kept that 2007 Pats team from going 19-0? Or two years later when Brady's go to man Wes Welker dropped a wide open throw that would have allowed the Patriots to ice the game?

Goes both ways.

Trojanbird

Very true!  And everyone gets"cheeted" at some point as refs blow and miss calls.

beck99

What are the chances of them winning out? They are already doing so much better than anyone could have imagined!

beach bum

Quote from: beck99 on December 07, 2020, 02:05:33 pm
What are the chances of them winning out? They are already doing so much better than anyone could have imagined!

Bucs vs Vikings going to be a good one.... Dalvin Cook ground game vs Brady in the air

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