Fearless Friday Bulletin Boards

Just because we've littered the playoffs thread with this type of discussion.  I'm actually interested to see some other top 10-15 lists. 

I'm a pretty big NBA junkie and have worked on a fluid top 25 list for the last few years and it's always changing.  So many players/situations that I consider a virtual toss-up (Wilt or Russell?  Bird or Magic? etc.) always have me flip-flopping players every time I read something new on them. 

I'm going to at least do my top 15 (five at a time) but would love to see some other top 10-15 lists.  I know Rattler is a long time NBA fan and it appears we've got some others.  Hopefully it can make for some good discussion.

You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 05:58:21 pm
You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons. His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.

=1 on this list good one

Leaving Oscar Robertson and Jerry West off a top 10 list was very tough but each won only 1 title. Even Wilt won 2. The rest of my picks were great individually and won titles galore.

Wade, Dirk, and Nash are players not on the list that may or may not deserve inclusion but still have time in careers to move up. Nash being at the end may enter or remain on that top 25 bubble. If Dirk wins a title I think he moves in due to being so unguardable for years and years. Wade, barring catastrophe, will enter. He, in my opinion, is the most spectacular player to watch in the NBA right now. If he gets another title this year he moves up immediately. If he wins 3 or 4 more then......

what no king james?

He is at #25. Barely made the list. How in the world could he make top 10 on anyone's list?

I hope I am reading sarcasm in that post.

MJ - 6 titles
Kareem - 6 titles
Magic - 5
Bird - 3
Kobe - 5
Russell - 11
Shaq - 4
Wilt - 2
Duncan - 4
Dr. J  - 2 ABA, 1 NBA

Lebron - 0

Lebron made my list and his awards match Nash's. 2 MVPs. NO titles. Great players but not top 10, yet for Lebron. Ask again in 5 years.

PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

Dr. J could easily move up the list:
In his five ABA seasons, Erving won three scoring titles, three Most Valuable Player Awards and two league championships. During his 11-year NBA career Erving was an All-Star each season, the league's Most Valuable Player in 1981 and a five-time member of the All-NBA First Team. He scored 30,026 points in his combined ABA and NBA career; only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Karl Malone and Michael Jordan have scored more points in the history of professional basketball.

Also lost in finals in 77, 80, and 82.

I also left Rick Barry off my list. He is top 25 all-time. Lebron is now off the list.

what about elgin baylor as honorable mention?

Good call. He was awesome. Guess how many titles he won?

I still put him ahead of I. Thomas in my top 25.

I have a top 12 spot reserved for LeBron but, for now, I have him slotted in my top 30.  The top 25 list I've worked on for a couple of years is always changing, and LeBron just crept into the top 25 after he won his second consecutive MVP.  Had he won a third straight this year, then I'd have him in my top 15-20 even without a championship.  As soon as he starts winning rings (and it's inevitable with the Miami super team) then he'll move into that elite top 12-15 for good.

Rattler, I like your list and don't have any complaints with it.  I have such a hard time ranking players like Dr. J who spent much of their prime in the ABA since I wasn't alive to actually watch them play.  All I have to go by is what I read and their stats.  Dr. J was a 28/12/5/2/2 player in the ABA, what does that translate to in the NBA?  Is that a 25/10/4/2/1.5 in the NBA, or worse?  I don't know. 

There are three players from that same era that I have so many "what if" questions about.

1.  Bill Walton - What if his career wasn't completely derailed by injuries?  Portland won the championship in 1977.  What a lot of people forget, though, is the following year Portland raced out to something like a 50-10 record before Walton was injured and sidelined for the rest of the season.  They were more than likely going to cruise to a second straight title with Walton as the man.  And, since Seattle won the '79 title, it's not out of the realm of possibility to think the Blazers could have won three straight from '77-'79 with a healthy Bill Walton.  Seattle deserves credit for their championship but they weren't great by NBA champion standards.  Oh, and don't forget the Blazers drafted Moses Malone in the ABA Dispersal Draft and then traded him.  So, imagine if Walton never had injury problems, and if the Blazers had kept Malone??  We're talking about arguably the greatest frontcourt ever.   

2.  What if Pete Maravich had been able to stay healthy, and what if he played in the three-point line era?  I've read two Pete Maravich biographies and he had range for days.  It said even in college, without a three point line, he would bring the ball up the floor and pull-up on a dime, and drop a jumper in from 25 feet out like it was nothing.  He had a six year stretch where he averaged 26.5 ppg, including a 31.1 ppg season in 1976-1977...WITHOUT a three point line.  I think it's safe to assume that a prime Maravich with a three point line is a 28/5/5 player.  Maravich was so innovative and so far ahead of his time as a player.  And people also forget he Dr. J were almost teammates in Atlanta.  Erving had gotten away from his ABA contract with the Virginia Squires and was set to join Maravich in Atlanta.  He even played some preseason games with the Hawks before it was ruled he legally had to honor his contract and return to the Squires.  Has there ever been a two players more tailor made to play with each other than Pete Maravich and Julius Erving? 

3.  And that leads me to Julius Erving...what if he had played his entire career in the NBA.  I think we're talking about a prime Erving who would have been putting up 26/11/4/2/1 in his prime.  If he puts up those numbers for a 7 or 8 year stretch while winning a couple of championships, then we're talking about a top 8 player all-time. 

Rattler, no offense, but I personally can't put Erving in my top 10 because it's so hard for me to figure how a player's numbers and brilliance in the ABA would have transformed to the NBA.  However, he is in my top 15.  I'll try and get my top 5 up later tonight or tomorrow sometime.

1. Michael Jordan
2.  Wilt
3. Bill Russell
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kobe
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic Johnson
8. Kareem
9. Jerry "the logo" West
10. Tim Duncan

Clyde Drexler

oops....

AB, Dr. J was drafted by Milwaukee originally. Can you imagine Kareem, Oscar, and Dr. J on same team. That would have been a assist dream for Big O.

I had the luxury of getting to watch the good Doctor play. He was the real deal. With top 15 I am good. That is why I said he could be top 3 but I have him at 10 because I cannot tell what those years would have been like against NBA defenses either.

I wish the Pistol had gotten to play with great teams and such. I read in a book once where they were discussing the finals and said that Pete finally got to the finals with the celtics but he was all out of bullets. Sad commentary. Walton got to them in time to contribute.

Walton was a great player who found that perfect fit. It happens from time to time.

DJ, Sikma, Unseld, and Hayes could easily fit into my top 30. I watched those championship series at my grandparents house......tape delayed!!!!!

I have always wondered about David Thompson had drugs/injuries not destroyed his career. His first 5 years.....

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 08:30:07 pm
I wish the Pistol had gotten to play with great teams and such. I read in a book once where they were discussing the finals and said that Pete finally got to the finals with the celtics but he was all out of bullets. Sad commentary. Walton got to them in time to contribute.

Walton was a great player who found that perfect fit. It happens from time to time.

DJ, Sikma, Unseld, and Hayes could easily fit into my top 30. I watched those championship series at my grandparents house......tape delayed!!!!!

Yeah, I don't want to discredit the Bullets and Sonics championship teams because, between them, they had a handful of great players.  The Bullets had Elvin Hayes, Bob Dandridge and a  past his prime Wes Unseld.  The Sonics had Gus Johnson, Jack Sikma and Dennis Johnson.  That's six top 50-100 players.  However, when your ranking all of the NBA champions, those two teams tend to find themselves at the bottom of most lists. 

Something of note that I've read more than once is the discussion of just how good were the 1970-1971 Milwaukee Bucks (66-16, Kareem, Oscar & Bob Dandridge) and the 1971-1972 Lakers (69-13, Kareem and West)?  That era is widely regarded as the weakest era in NBA history.  The league was a bit watered down due to the ABA and some think both teams' gaudy records are a little bit bolstered by a weakened league.  Don't get me wrong, I think both teams are great, but I have a hard time ranking them among the best championship teams of all-time. 

Actually, the NBA only had a handful of good teams. Those were good. I thought the Jo Jo White/Cowens Celts, Bullets, and Sonics of mid and late 70s were weaker. Any teams compared to Magic/Kareem Lakers, Bird Celts, Sixers of that era that followed them appear weak. The Celts and Lakers that preceded them were loaded as the league was smaller. They happen to fall during NBA expansion and ABA years. Gilmore, Dr J, Iceman, Moses Malone, Issel, etc.

1.  Michael Jordan

Stats
30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.8 bpg, .497/.327/.835
Career PER of 27.9


Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  6 
All-Star Games:  14 
All-Star Game MVP:  3 
MVP Top 5:  11 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1 
1st Team All-Defense:  9 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0 

The history of the NBA is forever remembered by its great big men.  My top 10 has six big men and there are seven in my top 11.  A great 6'10"+ big man has the ability to dominate a game on both ends of the floor like no other position due to a mixture of great size, athleticism, and tools.  So, for a 6'6" shooting guard to be the best player of all-time he had to be pretty special, on both ends of the floor.  And, as we all know, Michael Jordan was exactly that.  There are exactly two players in NBA history with a career scoring average of 30+ ppg.  Wilt Chamberlain, who statistically dominated the league like no other player before or since, is the other.  But it wasn't just Jordan's incredible scoring ability that made him a special player.  Jordan is already considered the best scoring perimeter player of all-time, however, many also consider him the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, too.  Jordan three times lead the NBA in steals and, during the height of the "Golden Age" of NBA big men was also able to snag a Defensive Player of the Year honor.  And some think he deserved a second, a rarity for a shooting guard.  Unfortunately Jordan's brilliant career coincided with that of great defensive centers like Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.  That still didn't keep Jordan from being named to nine defensive first teams and being a devastating on-ball defender along with being a great shot-blocking guard. 

Jordan, as we all know, was 6-0 in his career in NBA Championship series.   Had he not taken a needless baseball sabbatical during the height of his career, then it's very hard to say he would not have won eight straight NBA Championships and eight straight Finals MVPs.  One thing Jordan was able to do that other great guards throughout NBA history couldn't do, was raise his level of play and his better his regular season numbers in the playoffs.  People are forever wanting to compare Kobe Bryant to Jordan but, unlike Jordan, Kobe's numbers are actually slightly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season.

No surprises here, the consensus G.O.A.T is my number one.



2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Stats     
24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.6 bpg, .559/.721
Career PER of 24.6

Accolades
MVP:  6 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  19 
All-Star Game MVP:  0 
MVP Top 5:  15 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  5
1st Team All-Defense:  5 
2nd Team All-Defense:  6

What if Kareem had been beloved by the media and fans instead of alienating so many people?  I mean Kareem had an absolutely brilliant career.  He put up big numbers and won championships.  A beloved - as opposed to disliked - Kareem would surely challenge Jordan's greatest of all-time status, wouldn't he?  At his peak Kareem was a 30 ppg, 15 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 1 spg type player.  Had the beginning and prime of his career come 10 years earlier in the very fast paced 1960's, then there would have been two centers putting up 40/20 seasons.  One thing that separates him from Wilt, though, is that Kareem seemingly had "it".  Wherever he went his team's won championships.  Sure, he needed an aging Oscar Robertson and an underrated and young Bob Dandridge to win in Milwuakee; and sure, he needed Magic Johnson to win in Los Angeles, but Kareem won championships wherever he went.

The deciding factor for me, though, in ranking Kareem ahead of great big men like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain is just how good he was for so long.  He won his first Finals MVP in 1971 and his final one in 1988.  Most players don't have careers that last 14 years and Kareem won Finals MVP's 14 years apart.  I highly doubt we'll ever see another player be so great for so long.



3.  Bill Russell 

Stats
15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, .440/.561
Career PER of 18.9

Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  11
Finals MVP:  N/A 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  12 
1st Team All-NBA:  N/A 
2nd Team All-NBA:  N/A
1st Team All-Defense:  N/A 
2nd Team All-Defense:  N/A

For arguably the greatest defensive player to ever play the game it's a shame things like blocks, steals, and All-NBA/All-Defense teams weren't recorded.  Many people claim that Russell (and Wilt) very well may have been averaging 8+ bpg in their prime.  Russell is forever the master of the lost-art of blocking a shot to a teammate in order to spur a fastbreak, instead of sending it into the stands.  Every thing I've read on that era states that Wilt had a way of completely taking over and dominating a game on the defensive end like no other player before or since.  If there is one player in NBA history that transcends stats as a measure for their greatness, it's Bill Russell. 

Russell is the greatest champion in team sports history.  He was the "Alpha Dog" on 11 championship teams.  It took Auerbach's retirement after the 1966 Finals and Russell serving double-duty as player and coach for Wilt Chamberlain to end the Celtics eight year streak of championships.  It was short lived, though, as Russell's Celtics won the next to championships with Russell serving as a player and head coach.  Then, on his last legs at 34 years old, Russell willed his Celtics to one last championship in the 1968-1969 season.


4.  Magic Johnson 

Stats
19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.4 bpg, .520/.303/.848
Career PER of 24.1

Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  5
Finals MVP:  3 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  2 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0

Never again will we see a 6'9" facilitating point-guard on the level of Magic Johnson.  When talking about the most unique players in NBA history, Magic Johnson might lead the list.  Magic made a huge statement and left a huge mark on the league in perhaps the most memorable NBA Finals performance in NBA history.  As a rookie in the 1980 Finals the Los Angeles Lakers were sans-Kareem.  Stepping in as the starting center in his absence?  The team's regular point-guard, of course, and Magic did not disappoint.  Magic recorded a remarkable 42 point, 15 rebound, 7 assist performance in the closing game against the 76ers in those finals.  And that was just the beginning.

Magic's early career came as playing facilitator/team-leader as Kareem still assumed the "Alpha Dog" go-to scorer role.  As perhaps the most versatile player in NBA history, Magic flirted with a triple-double average in three of his first four seasons.  Highlighted by an 18/9.5/9.5 season in 1981-1982, Magic was the very definition of an all-around player.  Even his lacking on-ball defensive skills were made-up with his great ball instincts and averaging 2.5 steals per game in his first five seasons. 

The one - and only - thing that slightly separates Magic from Bird in my eyes is two more championships and one more Finals MVP.  Magic was even able to lead his 1990-1991 Lakers (a far different supporting cast than his Showtime Lakers) to the NBA Finals where they were beat by Jordan's upstart Bulls.  Magic was the consummate team player and leader during his 13 year career.



5.  Larry Bird

Stats
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, .496/.376/.886
Career PER of 23.5

Accolades
Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  3
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  3

I personally consider Larry Bird the greatest passing forward and the best forward in the NBA history, although LeBron is seriously threatening the former.  Peak Larry Bird was a 27/11/7 player who could hurt teams from anywhere on the floor.  Bird was just as lethal at hurting teams with a devastating jump-shot as he was picking apart defenses with pinpoint passes to a teammate.  Many people also don't realize Bird is a career 20/10 player, never averaging fewer than 8.5 rebounds as a heavy-footed 6'9" small-forward. 

I personally consider the 1985-1986 Boston Celtics as the greatest team of all-time, and Larry Bird was the leader of that team.  His relentless killer instinct rivals that of a Michael Jordan and, like Jordan, he demanded excellence from his teammates.  He also had a reputation of completely gutting a team with a big shot and telling his defender when and where the shot was coming from.  Unfortunately his brilliant career was derailed by chronic back issues.  Bird was reaching his zenith - statistically - in the late 1980's just as major back problems put a stop to his rise to the top.  However, even though he was playing in excruciating pain most nights, Bird averaged 20/9/7 in his final three seasons with the Celtics.   

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Dr. J
5. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
6. Wilt Chamberlin
7. Jerry West
8. Karl Malone
9. Oscar Robinson
10. Akeem Olujaun

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

Quote from: Ex-HAplayer on June 06, 2011, 01:27:32 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

Loved me some BOBBY JONES !!!  Dude would dunk on you, block your shot, D you up, Post you up and never say a word ! He never got enough credit. He did all of this while suffering from epilepsy. Bobby Jones was a straight up BALLER !

1. Michael Jordan

2. Everybody else

Quote from: AB™ on June 05, 2011, 10:54:30 pm
1.  Michael Jordan

Stats
30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.8 bpg, .497/.327/.835
Career PER of 27.9


Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  6 
All-Star Games:  14 
All-Star Game MVP:  3 
MVP Top 5:  11 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1 
1st Team All-Defense:  9 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0 

The history of the NBA is forever remembered by its great big men.  My top 10 has six big men and there are seven in my top 11.  A great 6'10"+ big man has the ability to dominate a game on both ends of the floor like no other position due to a mixture of great size, athleticism, and tools.  So, for a 6'6" shooting guard to be the best player of all-time he had to be pretty special, on both ends of the floor.  And, as we all know, Michael Jordan was exactly that.  There are exactly two players in NBA history with a career scoring average of 30+ ppg.  Wilt Chamberlain, who statistically dominated the league like no other player before or since, is the other.  But it wasn't just Jordan's incredible scoring ability that made him a special player.  Jordan is already considered the best scoring perimeter player of all-time, however, many also consider him the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, too.  Jordan three times lead the NBA in steals and, during the height of the "Golden Age" of NBA big men was also able to snag a Defensive Player of the Year honor.  And some think he deserved a second, a rarity for a shooting guard.  Unfortunately Jordan's brilliant career coincided with that of great defensive centers like Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.  That still didn't keep Jordan from being named to nine defensive first teams and being a devastating on-ball defender along with being a great shot-blocking guard. 

Jordan, as we all know, was 6-0 in his career in NBA Championship series.   Had he not taken a needless baseball sabbatical during the height of his career, then it's very hard to say he would not have won eight straight NBA Championships and eight straight Finals MVPs.  One thing Jordan was able to do that other great guards throughout NBA history couldn't do, was raise his level of play and his better his regular season numbers in the playoffs.  People are forever wanting to compare Kobe Bryant to Jordan but, unlike Jordan, Kobe's numbers are actually slightly worse in the playoffs than in the regular season.

No surprises here, the consensus G.O.A.T is my number one.



2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Stats     
24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 0.9 spg, 2.6 bpg, .559/.721
Career PER of 24.6

Accolades
MVP:  6 
Championships:  6
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  19 
All-Star Game MVP:  0 
MVP Top 5:  15 
1st Team All-NBA:  10 
2nd Team All-NBA:  5
1st Team All-Defense:  5 
2nd Team All-Defense:  6

What if Kareem had been beloved by the media and fans instead of alienating so many people?  I mean Kareem had an absolutely brilliant career.  He put up big numbers and won championships.  A beloved - as opposed to disliked - Kareem would surely challenge Jordan's greatest of all-time status, wouldn't he?  At his peak Kareem was a 30 ppg, 15 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg, 1 spg type player.  Had the beginning and prime of his career come 10 years earlier in the very fast paced 1960's, then there would have been two centers putting up 40/20 seasons.  One thing that separates him from Wilt, though, is that Kareem seemingly had "it".  Wherever he went his team's won championships.  Sure, he needed an aging Oscar Robertson and an underrated and young Bob Dandridge to win in Milwuakee; and sure, he needed Magic Johnson to win in Los Angeles, but Kareem won championships wherever he went.

The deciding factor for me, though, in ranking Kareem ahead of great big men like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain is just how good he was for so long.  He won his first Finals MVP in 1971 and his final one in 1988.  Most players don't have careers that last 14 years and Kareem won Finals MVP's 14 years apart.  I highly doubt we'll ever see another player be so great for so long.



3.  Bill Russell 

Stats
15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, .440/.561
Career PER of 18.9

Accolades
MVP:  5 
Championships:  11
Finals MVP:  N/A 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  12 
1st Team All-NBA:  N/A 
2nd Team All-NBA:  N/A
1st Team All-Defense:  N/A 
2nd Team All-Defense:  N/A

For arguably the greatest defensive player to ever play the game it's a shame things like blocks, steals, and All-NBA/All-Defense teams weren't recorded.  Many people claim that Russell (and Wilt) very well may have been averaging 8+ bpg in their prime.  Russell is forever the master of the lost-art of blocking a shot to a teammate in order to spur a fastbreak, instead of sending it into the stands.  Every thing I've read on that era states that Wilt had a way of completely taking over and dominating a game on the defensive end like no other player before or since.  If there is one player in NBA history that transcends stats as a measure for their greatness, it's Bill Russell. 

Russell is the greatest champion in team sports history.  He was the "Alpha Dog" on 11 championship teams.  It took Auerbach's retirement after the 1966 Finals and Russell serving double-duty as player and coach for Wilt Chamberlain to end the Celtics eight year streak of championships.  It was short lived, though, as Russell's Celtics won the next to championships with Russell serving as a player and head coach.  Then, on his last legs at 34 years old, Russell willed his Celtics to one last championship in the 1968-1969 season.


4.  Magic Johnson 

Stats
19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.4 bpg, .520/.303/.848
Career PER of 24.1

Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  5
Finals MVP:  3 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  2 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  0

Never again will we see a 6'9" facilitating point-guard on the level of Magic Johnson.  When talking about the most unique players in NBA history, Magic Johnson might lead the list.  Magic made a huge statement and left a huge mark on the league in perhaps the most memorable NBA Finals performance in NBA history.  As a rookie in the 1980 Finals the Los Angeles Lakers were sans-Kareem.  Stepping in as the starting center in his absence?  The team's regular point-guard, of course, and Magic did not disappoint.  Magic recorded a remarkable 42 point, 15 rebound, 7 assist performance in the closing game against the 76ers in those finals.  And that was just the beginning.

Magic's early career came as playing facilitator/team-leader as Kareem still assumed the "Alpha Dog" go-to scorer role.  As perhaps the most versatile player in NBA history, Magic flirted with a triple-double average in three of his first four seasons.  Highlighted by an 18/9.5/9.5 season in 1981-1982, Magic was the very definition of an all-around player.  Even his lacking on-ball defensive skills were made-up with his great ball instincts and averaging 2.5 steals per game in his first five seasons. 

The one - and only - thing that slightly separates Magic from Bird in my eyes is two more championships and one more Finals MVP.  Magic was even able to lead his 1990-1991 Lakers (a far different supporting cast than his Showtime Lakers) to the NBA Finals where they were beat by Jordan's upstart Bulls.  Magic was the consummate team player and leader during his 13 year career.



5.  Larry Bird

Stats
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, .496/.376/.886
Career PER of 23.5

Accolades
Accolades
MVP:  3 
Championships:  3
Finals MVP:  2 
All-Star Games:  12 
All-Star Game MVP:  1 
MVP Top 5:  9 
1st Team All-NBA:  9 
2nd Team All-NBA:  1
1st Team All-Defense:  0 
2nd Team All-Defense:  3

I personally consider Larry Bird the greatest passing forward and the best forward in the NBA history, although LeBron is seriously threatening the former.  Peak Larry Bird was a 27/11/7 player who could hurt teams from anywhere on the floor.  Bird was just as lethal at hurting teams with a devastating jump-shot as he was picking apart defenses with pinpoint passes to a teammate.  Many people also don't realize Bird is a career 20/10 player, never averaging fewer than 8.5 rebounds as a heavy-footed 6'9" small-forward. 

I personally consider the 1985-1986 Boston Celtics as the greatest team of all-time, and Larry Bird was the leader of that team.  His relentless killer instinct rivals that of a Michael Jordan and, like Jordan, he demanded excellence from his teammates.  He also had a reputation of completely gutting a team with a big shot and telling his defender when and where the shot was coming from.  Unfortunately his brilliant career was derailed by chronic back issues.  Bird was reaching his zenith - statistically - in the late 1980's just as major back problems put a stop to his rise to the top.  However, even though he was playing in excruciating pain most nights, Bird averaged 20/9/7 in his final three seasons with the Celtics.   

I always can appreciate your discussions. This one, too, is a good one. I wish Bird had not gotten injured so we could have seen how it played out. I always thought the Lakers that followed that Celtics group and the group that preceded it were the best of all-time. I suspect that most  people who have followed NBA put the Lakers, Celtics, or Sixers of the 80s as best. It is not for reasons most would think. It is because they stockpiled talent back then. It is not conceivable now with the costs.

Byron Scott
Magic Johnson 
Ronnie Lester
Michael Cooper
A.C. Green
James Worthy
Jerome Henderson
Kurt Rambis
Larry Spriggs
Maurice Lucas
Mike McGee
Mitch Kupchak
Chuck Nevitt
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Petur Gudmundsson

or

Byron Scott
Eddie Jordan
Magic Johnson
Michael Cooper
Calvin Garrett
Jamaal Wilkes
James Worthy
Kurt Rambis 
Larry Spriggs
Mike McGee
Mitch Kupchak
Bob McAdoo 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Swen Nater

Quote from: Chosen 1 on June 06, 2011, 01:40:50 am
1. Michael Jordan

2. Everybody else

I have MJ at #1 but Kareem at 1B. If you watched each of them play for the best 12 years of their respective careers without listening to the media you would realize the greatness of each. Coaches who had to prepare for Abdul-Jabbar had no answers at either end of the floor. MJ has been discussed ad nauseum so I need not go on about his greatness.

Quote from: Hoghead on June 06, 2011, 01:38:53 am

Quote from: Ex-HAplayer on June 06, 2011, 01:27:32 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

Loved me some BOBBY JONES !!!  Dude would dunk on you, block your shot, D you up, Post you up and never say a word ! He never got enough credit. He did all of this while suffering from epilepsy. Bobby Jones was a straight up BALLER !

Glad to know another FF poster saw him play. He was great. Did his job with total excellence and as you said"never said a word".

Byron Scott
Eddie Jordan
Magic Johnson
Michael Cooper
Calvin Garrett
Jamaal Wilkes
James Worthy
Kurt Rambis 
Larry Spriggs
Mike McGee
Mitch Kupchak
Bob McAdoo 
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Swen Nater

greatest PG and Center ever, Defensive Player of the Year(Cooper), All Star in Wilkes, Top 50 All Time in Worthy, NBA MVP off the bench in McAdoo, and great bench with Nater and Kuptchak as bigs plus great role players in Rambis and McGee.

Quote from: Ex-HAplayer on June 06, 2011, 01:27:32 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 07:11:45 pm
PG -
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Thomas
4. Cousy
5. Nash

SG -
1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. George Gervin (just because I loved watching him play)

C -
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem

SF -
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Hondo
4. Pippen
5. Lebron

PF  -
1. Duncan
2. Petitt
3. Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. McHale

Who are some notable names I left off that you would have added?
KG
Dominique
Worthy
Cousy
Pierce
McAdoo
Cowens
Gilmore
Issel.....

I have a name. This is a player I would take on my team any time but never appears on lists. He played side by side with all time greats so he was overshadowed but just a great player: Bobby Jones.

He played beside Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Daryl Dawkins, etc. so there were few shots left yet his pct. was great, his shot selection impeccable, his defense awesome(usually asked to guard Dr. J back in ABA days), his rebounding and passing great too.

Back on topic. Who are your picks?

What no dwayne wade?! JP

He can take Gervin's place. I told you I only put him on there because I liked him so much. Wade is great.

I would take Wade over James or Kobe.  He's as complete of a player than either of those two imo.

Wade, MJ, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Bird, Dr J, Barkley, Kobe, Pippen are my favs

Not a bad list at all. If Wade wins another title this year it moves him into another echelon.

Since the guys still playing are still working on their legacy, it's kinda hard to speculate just where they will ultimately fit in, so for simplicity sake, I'm gonna leave em out.

Jabaar
MJ
Russell
Bird
Magic
Oscar
Dr. J
Cousy
Shaq
West

Some of my favorites to watch were Bobby Jones, Gervin, Worthy, Shaq, Elgin Baylor...

Another Bobby Jones fan! Loving it. Stats do not give the complete info. This guy could flat out play basketball.

RATTLER, I don't think you can go wrong picking one of those Laker teams and calling them the best ever.  I personally like the Lakers team that featured McAdoo as a 6th man.

If Wade not only wins another championship this year, but also wins Finals MVP, then it will be very hard to keep him out of the to 10-15 discussion when his career wraps up.  LeBron has been great in the Finals (and better overall in the entire playoffs than Wade) but Wade has been the best player for Miami in the finals.  If the series were to end right now he would be my Finals MVP.  That would give Wade two championships and two Finals MVPs at the age of 29.  For comparison's sake, Jordan won his second championship and second Finals MVP at 28 years old.

I have been thinking along those lines as well. I am a Wade fan and recognize that he is great and then steps it up in the finals both times. Goes a long way in my book to "rise to the occasion" in the championship.

On the Lakers/Celtics of that era, I think I give the nod to the Lakers over the Cs due to winning more titles only. The same goes to choosing both of them over the Sixers of the era. All three were great. I have a fourth team from the exact era that I believe could have won titles in 70s and in this season: Milwaukee Bucks with Marquis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Bob Lanier, and company  followed by the Moncrief, Cummings, Pressey group. They could not get past those loaded Celtics or Sixers but were loaded themselves. The playoffs were awesome during the era.

For those who don't know, Sidney Moncrief was about as good as it gets after MJ at that 2 guard but only did it for a limited amount of time. He just missed out on being voted into the Hall years ago. He lacked longevity. I still remember the SI issue where it was stated that in his earlier years that Moncrief defended MJ better than any other player in the league.

Danny Ainge
Larry Bird
Rick Carlisle
Dennis Johnson
Greg Kite
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Jerry Sichting
David Thirdkill
Sam Vincent 
Bill Walton
Scott Wedman
Sly Williams

Pretty incredible indeed. The Sixers of the era had:
Maurice Cheeks
Bobby Jones
Dr. J
Moses Malone
Andrew Toney

Bobby Jones is the all-time ABA FG pct. leader. He led the NBA his second season there. All D 1st team 8 consecutive years.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesbo01.html

Earlier it was mentioned that MJ won Def. player of the year. Moncrief won it twice. Not saying he was even in the same range as MJ. Just saying that Moncrief was very good player.

I read an article about David Thompson taking quarters off of a backboard. I heard the same about Moncrief back in the 70s. Never saw it but heard it from many.

Jo Jo White
Tiny Archibald
Bernard King
Paul Westphal
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Rudy T.

Who else you got that was awesome but not top 25? Bernard King was unstoppable for a few years. Gilmore led in FG pct. Issel was great athlete and transition beast among centers. Tiny led in scoring and assists.

Wow Ratt I didn't realize you were an NBA junkie as well as track. Your list of players really hits hard when I followed the NBA in my life with all the tv games, newspaper stats, and basketball card collecting. Basically 80-95 or so is when I really got into the NBA. Not so much now. I hate all the trading with the players jumping ship so often. My team back in the day was the 76ers. Loved me some great Sunday afternoon Sixer games with DRJ,Choc Thunder, BJ, Toney and Cheeks. 

I have gone through eras in my life:
Baseball ruled until 1976. I was a huge Mays, Ryan, Cedeno, Brooks Robinson, Carew, etc. fan.
Then I picked up a basketball.... Kareem, Dr. J for years until Magic, Super Sid, Bird, and MJ came along...
Then I began coaching track and field in the late 80s. I had always loved watching it but fell in love with it when I came to realization of the purity of the sport.
Have loved football from the days of Staubach.
I can discuss tennis going back to Borg and Connors but lost interest somewhere along the way.
I was into hockey for those college years in mid80s when I would get home from closing the store and ESPN would be showing the Edmonton Oilers in their heyday.
Love my Hogs at everything along with my Rattlers.

But, track is my passion. I can talk it non-stop.

Now, back to the NBA......

Has anyone mentioned Wilkins?

'nique, that is.

What about the "Mailman" Karl Malone? He came very close to being a Hog during recruiting.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 06, 2011, 10:01:20 pm
Jo Jo White
Tiny Archibald
Bernard King
Paul Westphal
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Rudy T.

Who else you got that was awesome but not top 25? Bernard King was unstoppable for a few years. Gilmore led in FG pct. Issel was great athlete and transition beast among centers. Tiny led in scoring and assists.

I don't know if they're the best but my personal favorite non-top 25-35 players (or even top 50 for that matter)....

David Thompson - Another player who started in the ABA, was on track as a 25/5/4/1/1/50%+ player before having his career ruined by a knee injury.  I've read so many "tall-tale" type stories about David Thompson and how great he might have really been.  He was All-NBA his first couple of years in the NBA and, as Bill Simmons points out in his book, had made "the leap" at the same ages (22-24) as all the other elite athletic type SG's in NBA history -- Jordan, Kobe, AI, McGrady, Wade, etc. 

Bernard King - A lot of what I've read on him and what little I've seen of him, he was apparently Carmelo Anthony before Carmelo Anthony.  An elite scorer that could score from anywhere on the court in anyway you'd need him to score the ball. 

Alex English - In the entire decade of the 1980's no NBA player scored more points than Alex English

Paul Westphal - A great scorer who seems to get lost in the shuffle sometimes when talking about some of the former greats, but he was the best player on the Phoenix team that lost in the Finals in the 1970's (can't remember the exact year). 

Mark Aguirre - Some people forget that the Mavericks didn't always suck before Dirk came along in 1998, and Mark Aguirre was the reason why.  Like so many other underrated players from that era, he was a terrific scorer but left something to be desired on the defensive end of the floor.

Sidney Moncrief - One, he's a former Razorback but, had he not caught the injury bug, he would have been the best SG the first 5 or 6 years of the 1980's before Jordan came along.  Not only was he a 20 ppg scorer in his prime but he was also the best perimeter defender in the NBA.  I still don't understand how he's not in the Hall of Fame.

Adrian Dantley - A 6'4" hybrid type player who made a living with an array of low-post moves.  He was essentially a very undersized PF who still killed opponents with a back to the basket game.

Dave Debusschere - One of the most versatile defenders to ever play the game.   He's probably the most forgotten about and least talked about player from the great Knicks teams of the 1970's.


Those are some off the top of my head.  I'll remember 5 or 6 more over the next day or two, I'm sure. 

Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 06, 2011, 08:15:31 pm
Another Bobby Jones fan! Loving it. Stats do not give the complete info. This guy could flat out play basketball.

Along those lines, speaking of Defense, I use to love the Bulls back court of Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier.  Both of them hard nosed, in your face on the ball defenders. Bill Russell best big man defender.  Olojuwan close...and Nate Thurman.

My Favorites...

1. Magic
2. West
3. Jordan
4. Wilt
5. Maravich
6. Bird
7. Jabbar
8. Kobe
9. Russell
10. Dr. J

How about honorable mention
John Havlicek
Alex English
Earle "The Pearl" Monroe
Connie Hawkins
Artis Gilmore
George McGinnis
Maurice Lucas
Billy Cunningham
Spencer Haywood
Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes
Robert Parrish
Charles Barkley
Paul Westphal
Willis Reed
Walt Frazier

^ good to see Havlicek on someone's list

Quote from: Hoghead on June 07, 2011, 07:47:16 am
Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

I didn't see Bernard King play in his prime, but you're exactly the type of poster who would say the older version is always better than the newer version.  In my personal top player rankings Bernard King would rank higher than Carmelo, but let's not sit here and act like Carmelo isn't tough and can't score from anywhere on the floor.  He can shoot the three, has a very salty mid-range pull-up jumper, and can score in the low-post.  Players dread guarding Carmelo, too, because he has no weaknesses on the offensive end of the floor.

Carmelo doesn't play a lot of defense but I can't recall ever hearing about Bernard King being a defensive standout. 

A player I had barely ever heard anything about, but just recently ran across in a book I'm reading, is Marques Johnson.  I don't know how I'm just now becoming familiar with him.  He is a career 20/7/3/52% player as a 6'7" SF.  He played in five All-Star games, was 1st Team All-NBA once, and 2nd Team All-NBA twice. 

MJ is number one and Jabbar is number 2 but in IMO there isn't much distance between those two. Jabbar without a doubt in my mind had the most skill, size and athleticism all in one package than any big man to have ever played the game. Back in the day I couldn't stand Jabbar but when I went on the court and tried to imitate his moves...OMG whole new respect for the man. To be able to shoot a sky hook from 12-17 ft from the basket and to do that at over 7ft tall while being doubled teamed...reason why no one has ever been able to duplicate it! Nobody is willing to work at that shot and he was unstoppable with it. Running half hooks in the lane, baby jump hooks you can learn if you work at it but shoot a sky hook it's like learning how to play golf it will frustrate you that much.

DR. J is my favorite if it wasn't for him there would not have been a Jordan. At 6-6 nobody was dunking on 7 footers like that in his era. Made everyone wonder what they had to do to be able to fly like that! I remember the urban legend that Dr. J had the skin removed between his thumbs and index fingers so he could palm a basketball easier. Sports Illustrated debunked it when a article was written that Dr J's hands where about the same size as Jabbar's! Glad for that article cause I just about to go under the knife! ;D

Bird and Magic are next on my list didn't care for either but had to respect their game.

#5 Bill Russell the ultimate winner

Maybe not one of the Best Players of ALL Time. BUT...... Robert Horry was the BEST at getting traded to Championship teams. Big Shot Bob had a heck of a agent ! 2 Rings in Houston, 2 at LA and 2 with San Antonio.

Quote from: Hoghead on June 07, 2011, 02:18:21 pm
Maybe not one of the Best Players of ALL Time. BUT...... Robert Horry was the BEST at getting traded to Championship teams. Big Shot Bob had a heck of a agent ! 2 Rings in Houston, 2 at LA and 2 with San Antonio.

He was actually there for the entire Lakers 3-Peat from 2000-2002, so he's got 7 rings. 

Horry wasn't the best player but he definitely had the "It" factor.  Kinda like the Worm (Rodman).  Wasn't eye popping good but had "It".  Both of those guys did their thing.  Horry would nail a 3 and you would be like, "Where did he come from?" and he would have 20 before you knew it.  Rodman would have 25 rebounds a game and not score a point and you would never know it until they flashed his stats at the bottom of the screen.  Then you are like..."Wow!".

There are three guys in my lifetime that were career role players but always on really good teams...

Dennis Rodman
Robert Horry
Steve Kerr

Now, Rodman was the best of the three.  He's a Hall of Fame player who was an extremely nasty and versatile defender with the Bad Boy Pistons.  He's also one of the 3-5 best rebounders of all time.  He never put up great offensive numbers but he's still one of the best defensive players to ever play the game. 

Quote from: Hoghead on June 07, 2011, 07:47:16 am
Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

If Bernard had good knees he would be top 5 in my book. The man could flat play!

AB, I mentioned him in reply #35. Johnson teamed with Moncrief, Lanier and company and gave the Celtics and sixers all they could handle but could never bust through to the finals. He was a fantastic player.

Yes, Nemesis, you understand that "it" quality to which I refer. There is athleticism, skill, and "it". Various players have amounts of each. MJ, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Wade seem to possess high levels of all three.

ok i mentioned him earlier elgin baylor, but i am finding it odd that no one else has him on their list his #s are 27.4/13.5/4.6  i will shut up about baylor now,just wondering!

Elgin Baylor was a great player. He played when most of the league talent was on two teams: Lakers and Celtics with Celtics winning all the titles. The league also had a limited amount of great big men allowing large athletic forwards to put up incredible numbers(although, Baylor would be great in any era). I have him in my top 50 all-time but not top 20.

Russell
Wilt
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
John Havlicek
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas
Sam Jones
were about the best players in the NBA of the era.
Elgin Baylor

Don't take it as a put down to any of these players because I truly believe they would have been great in any era, but Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Bob Pettit, and Elgin Baylor would not have the numbers they have had they played in later eras. They still would be awesome. I believe Russell would still be the league's best rebounder but not at 25 per game. Wilt might lead in scoring but not at 50 ppg. Just an opinion. The league was smaller and Wilt was 7'4" of incredible athleticism; Bill Russell was 6'9" with 7'+ wingspan. Both  often played against inferior athletes. The guards of today's NBA are often the size of the power forwards of that day and small forwards of that day. In today's NBA, most teams have multiple big men on the floor. It would take away some of the rebounds and points off of offensive rebounds.  Just an assessment.

Check this link out.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html

It has the top avg ppg in history. Lebron has the 3rd highest avg so far in his career. When I mentioned Karl Malone earlier, I did not realize he was 2nd in history at almost 36K pts! He grew up near the AR border.

Karl Malone was great as well. He and Stockton are one of the top 1-2 punches in NBA history.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html

Most people don't like AI- Iverson but in the link above he has the 6th highest scoring avg in history, Most people including myself would pass on him if drafted and go for someone that had more of an overall game and someone that got along better with his coaches and teammates. It was all about "I" with "AI". Great high school football QB that could have gone BIG time D1.

Shaq is way up there with the rings and stats but it pains me to see another great player turned "has been" hang on so long after his PRIME was over. Good to see he finally retired.

Not an Iverson fan. Shot selection lacking.  Great skills, poor decision-making. Determination combined with bad attitude.

How about all-decade teams vs each other:
60s vs. 00s
Oscar Robertson v  Wade
Jerry West v Kobe
Wilt v Shaq
Bill Russell v Tim Duncan
Bob Pettit v Lebron

50s vs 90s
Cousy v Stockton
Sharman v MJ
Mikan v Olajuwan
Arizin/Johnston v Pippen
Schayes v K. Malone

70s v 60s
Clyde v West
Hondo v Robertson
Kareem v Wilt
Hayes v Russell
Dr. J v Pettit

80s v 90s
Magic v Stockton
Moncrief v MJ
M. Malone v Olajuwan
Bird v Pippen
Barkley v K. Malone

Magic v Clyde
Moncrief v Hondo
M. Malone v Kareem
Bird v Dr. J
Barkley v Hayes

What you have not been allowed to see are the benches of each team. The 70s have Gervin, Pistol Pete, Artis Gilmore, Rick Barry, Tiny Archibald, Bob McAdoo, Dan Issel, David Thompson among others.

Feel free to add your thoughts, teams, opinions, etc.

You all know that had I put Kareem, MJ, and Olajuwan in the 80s group that they are invincible!

Wade!  Moving up my list as I watch.

Quote from: InYoGrill on June 07, 2011, 08:16:46 pm
http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_all_time_leaders/AllTimeLeadersPPGQuery.html

Most people don't like AI- Iverson but in the link above he has the 6th highest scoring avg in history, Most people including myself would pass on him if drafted and go for someone that had more of an overall game and someone that got along better with his coaches and teammates. It was all about "I" with "AI". Great high school football QB that could have gone BIG time D1.

Shaq is way up there with the rings and stats but it pains me to see another great player turned "has been" hang on so long after his PRIME was over. Good to see he finally retired.

I feel as if AI was under the right system with the right veteran players, He could have been one of the best. Iverson is probably one of the best small guards ever to play the game, and although he did have his run ins..no one can question how hard he played on the court and all he did for the city of Philadelphia.

Had Larry Brown. Not sure if Mutombo, Hill, Kukoc, etc. qualify as the right veterans. AI ran Brown off. Big mistake. Never had chemistry on a team again. Great athlete with great skills who was a chemistry destroyer.

AI needed a star veteran to groom him imo.

Wade right now is making his case to be included in some of these lists. My goodness.

Quote from: Smithian on June 07, 2011, 10:26:43 pm
Wade right now is making his case to be included in some of these lists. My goodness.

Where were you when I was arguing for Wade as the best 2-way SG of all-time not named Michael Jordan?

I've had him as 3rd best SG ever for a couple of years now.  If Miami wins this series (which they will) and Wade wins Finals MVP, then he's at worst a top 25 player.   

Agreed.

He is a more muscular Sidney Moncrief who has one title on the verge of two.

Not sure I put him ahead of Jerry West and Oscar Robertson just yet but he moves into top 25 all-time. He needs a little more longevity to move into top 15.

Quote from: olddog79 on June 07, 2011, 04:33:02 pm

Quote from: Hoghead on June 07, 2011, 07:47:16 am
Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

If Bernard had good knees he would be top 5 in my book. The man could flat play!

1.  There's two ends of the basketball floor and, from what I've read, King didn't particularly play great defense.

2.  Healthy or not (and I know he had injury problems) he still missed the playoffs nine times in seasons where he played the majority of the games. 

3.  I've never seen King higher than high 50's in an all-time list, which means there is more than injuries keeping him from being a potential top 5-25 player.  Bill Walton gets the benefit of the doubt and ranked int eh top 30-50 despite major injury problems because he was the "Alpha Dog" on a championship team and fit in seamlessly as the 6th man on the 1985-1986 Celtics. 

I'm not saying King wasn't a great player but even with good knees he wasn't a top 5 player all-time.  A top 5 scorer ever?  Perhaps, but not one of the five best players ever.

If he wins multiple titles with this Heat group then he could move into top 10 or 12.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 07, 2011, 10:34:58 pm
Not sure I put him ahead of Jerry West and Oscar Robertson just yet but he moves into top 25 all-time. He needs a little more longevity to move into top 15.

I consider Oscar Robertson a point guard.

My top 5 shooting-guards ever...

1.   Michael Jordan
2.   Kobe Bryant
3a  Dwyane Wade
3b  Jerry West
5.   George Gervin

I don't know what to do with someone like John Havlicek because he played so many positions in his career.  If he is labled as a SG, then I'd put him at #5 and slide Gervin down a spot.

King was just that-a great scorer. I loved Pistol Pete but that is what he was in the NBA as well. He did have flashy passing abilities unlike King but not a great defender or rebounder. I don't have King in my top 50 players or top 25 scorers but he was a great scorer.
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Baylor
AI
K. Malone
M. Malone
McAdoo
Dr. J
Issel
Barry
Wilkins
Dirk
....
So many great scorers that it is hard to put King in top scorers of all=time lists.

I haven't seen enough of King to nkow how good of a scorer he was relative to NBA history.  I've just heard his game was VERY similar to Carmelo Anthony.  A big SF with good athleticism, a good rebounding SF, and could score on any spot of the floor.

I've never seen him mentioned as a top 50 player, though.  I'd have him in my 60-75 range.

Big O played PG much of the time because he was so skilled but was a great 2-guard as well. MJ played the point quite a lot at times. Either position you put Big O in he is top 5.

D-Wade just keeps moving up my list.

Oscar Robertson "There is some debate on whether he was a PG or an SG. The best answer is he was a combo-guard before the term became popular. He is also a little big for the "combo" tag. At 6'5" he was often taller than his backcourt partner. He also shot the ball more than your usual PG. While his assist numbers legitimize the PG argument, he was more of a playmaking SG. Similar to what Dwyane Wade has been able to do in this era."

Quote from: olddog79 on June 07, 2011, 04:33:02 pm

Quote from: Hoghead on June 07, 2011, 07:47:16 am
Carmelo could only wish his game was as tight as Bernard King. King was tough and more physical than Carmelo. He could score at will. Players dreaded holding Bernard.

If Bernard had good knees he would be top 5 in my book. The man could flat play!

You HAMN Skippy Olddog79 !! Bernard was the REAL DEAL !

KG winning a title as the leader of the 2008 Celtics team bumped him up a few more spots in my opinion, and probably other people's, too.  Before that, he was ringless just like Barkley and Malone, so it was hard justifying having him ranked higher than either. 

Of course Malone and Barkley would have probably combined for 3 championships if it weren't for that pesky Michael Jordan guy. 

Pettit is a guy I have a hard time getting a grasp on.  I know he put up insanely good numbers in the 1950's and 1960's, but I'm not convinced he'd be any better in this era than someone like Barkley/Malone/KG/Dirk.  I'm not saying he would be nothing more than a 15/10 player if he played today, but I feel pretty confident he wouldn't be anywhere close to a 26/16 career player, either.  With that said, you can't deny what he did when he played:  MVP 2x, All-Star Game MVP 4x, MVP voting top 5 8x, 1st Team All-NBA 10x, 1 championship as "Alpha Dog".

Something interesting is how low players FG% was in the early era of the NBA. 

Cliff Hagan:  45.0%
Jack Tyman:  45.0%
Bill Russell:  44.0%
Bob Pettit:   43.6%
John Havlicek:  43.9%
Ed Macauley:  43.6%
Elgin Baylor:  43.1%
Bill Sharman:  42.6%
Paul Arizin:  42.1%
Richie Guerin:  41.6%
George Mikan:  40.4%
Harry Gallatin:  39.8%
Carl Braun:  38.3%
Dolph Schayes:  38.0%
Bob Cousy:  37.5%
Slater Martin:  36.4%


That's 16 of the best players in the NBA during the 50's-60's.  I know the league average FG% back then was pretty low, too, and it looks like 42%-45% in the 50's and 60's was about the equivalent of shooting 50% in today's game. 

I think Pettit would have scored just fine; he had great game. I just can't see any of those old guys rebounding like they did. I figure about a 20/10 guy. But we will never know. He was leader of the team that did not let Celtics win 'em all.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 09, 2011, 05:26:11 pm
I think Pettit would have scored just fine; he had great game. I just can't see any of those old guys rebounding like they did. I figure about a 20/10 guy. But we will never know. He was leader of the team that did not let Celtics win 'em all.

Yeah, the St. Louis Hawks winning in 1958 kept Boston from winning 10 in a row.  That Hawks team was pretty loaded, too, though.  Pettit was definitely the best player and leader, but they also had Cliff Hagan, Ed Macauley, and Slater Martin.

Great 1-2 punches:
Magic-Kareem
MJ-Pippen
Russell-Cousy
Shaq-Kobe
Bird-McHale
Stockton-Malone
Dr. J-George McGinnis then Moses Malone
Kareem-Big O
Duncan-Robinson
Moncrief-Johnson
Issel-Thompson
just to name a few.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry
15. KG
16. Bob Pettit
17. Moses Malone
18. D Wade
19. Charles Barkley
20. Hondo
21. James Worthy
22. Kevin McHale
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Scottie Pippen
26. John Stockton
27. George Mikan
28. George Gervin
29. Dan Issel
30. Isaiah Thomas
31. Lebron 
32. David Robinson
33. Sidney Moncrief/Bill Walton(each would have been much higher but had shortened careers due to injuries)
34. Paul Pierce
35. Elgin Baylor
36. Steve Nash
37. Bobby Jones
38. Elvin Hayes
39. Earl the Pearl
40. Patrick Ewing
41. Artis Gilmore
42. 'nique
43. Clyde Drexler
44. Bob Cousy
45. Bob Lanier
46. Dennis Johnson
47. Jamaal Wilkes
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Pistol Pete
50. Dennis Rodman

Okay, who have I left out or forgotten? Or, who would you place differently? We have to discuss something now that the season has ended.

I certainly think Dirk has done enough, now, to be mentioned as a top 20-25 player.  I'm going to post my 6-10 and eventually top 25.  I already had Dirk as a borderline top 30 player before this season started.  Then he put together a great regular season, and then carried a team with no other all-stars and past their prime role players to an NBA Championship. 

Yes. The way he carried the Mavs in the playoffs and winning the title really made an impression on me. His coolness at the free shot line and 4th quarter shooting move him into the elite for me.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 13, 2011, 09:18:37 pm
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry
15. KG
16. Bob Pettit
17. Moses Malone
18. D Wade
19. Charles Barkley
20. Hondo
21. James Worthy
22. Kevin McHale
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Scottie Pippen
26. John Stockton
27. George Mikan
28. George Gervin
29. Dan Issel
30. Isaiah Thomas
31. Lebron 
32. David Robinson
33. Sidney Moncrief/Bill Walton(each would have been much higher but had shortened careers due to injuries)
34. Paul Pierce
35. Elgin Baylor
36. Steve Nash
37. Bobby Jones
38. Elvin Hayes
39. Earl the Pearl
40. Patrick Ewing
41. Artis Gilmore
42. 'nique
43. Clyde Drexler
44. Bob Cousy
45. Bob Lanier
46. Dennis Johnson
47. Jamaal Wilkes
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Pistol Pete
50. Dennis Rodman

Okay, who have I left out or forgotten? Or, who would you place differently? We have to discuss something now that the season has ended.

Rick Berry at #14? Really?

Maybe there's a name or two on this list that some folks haven't thought of:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_career.html


Here's their overall fan list:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi#ratings

I may be impacted by having watched him play when I was 8 to 10 years old and thinking nobody can stop this guy. Later on when my junior high coach was drilling in the importance of free shots was at end of Barry's career and it seemed as though he never missed. Then in my 20s when MJ was dominating it would be reinforced with all time finals averages and Barry was always top 5. He won a title by carrying his team. Just my picks. Where do you place him?

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 14, 2011, 08:47:50 am
I may be impacted by having watched him play when I was 8 to 10 years old and thinking nobody can stop this guy. Later on when my junior high coach was drilling in the importance of free shots was at end of Barry's career and it seemed as though he never missed. Then in my 20s when MJ was dominating it would be reinforced with all time finals averages and Barry was always top 5. He won a title by carrying his team. Just my picks. Where do you place him?

I understand. We all have "favorites", but I would put Barry somewhere below Moses, D. Robinson, Elvin Hayes, Bob Cousy, or Pistol Pete...IMO

Sounds reasonable. Look up the roster for Barry's NBA title team. That alone is enough for me to keep him above those players. He swept Big E's Bullets who were loaded. But all of this is subjective anyway. After the top 12 it got really difficult and like I mentioned my reasoning was based upon perceptions of me as a youngster.

Barry in '75, Hakeem in '93, some say Duncan in '03, and now Dirk in 2011 are all very impressive title runs because their supporting cast didn't consist of much else in terms of star power.

RATTLER, I'm curious as to why you have Issel ranked so high?  I know he scored nearly 30,000 points in the ABA and NBA combined, but I've never seen him ranked in any top 50 list, never mind top 30.

I watched in amazement the offensive skills he possessed as an undersized center. He is the best transition center in history at beating opposition downcourt for easy baskets. Those Issel/Thompson Nuggets were so explosive. They just could not get over hump and win title much like 80s Bucks. But alas I was young and my perceptions of Issel could be wrong. I thinl most ABA stars are underrated due to NBA's and media dislike for them in the day. If not for Dr. J's popularity it might have happened to him as well. My opinions combine having seen him, stats, and readings. I have a video of an Issel dunk that would be highlight even in today's NBA.

You will have to study him and try to get some video of him. His ABA days taint him in the eyes of media. He was also small market. Trust me. He was a player.

Many ABA players played their younger years in ABA. Compared to great NBA scorers I tried to see where they fit. MJ's scoring declined after so many seasons. So with Dr. J, Issel, Barry, Malone, Gervin, etc. I try to figure it to my best ability.

Not in my top 50 but I also liked Walter Davis, Rudy T and Calvin Murphy, Larry Kenon, Paul Silas, Tiny Archibald, JoJo white, The Chief, Wes Unseld, Jack Sikma, Clyde, Norm Nixon....  I really enjoy remembering those days of my youth.

Issel is a lifetime 499 percent FG with his NBA being slightly higher than ABA. He also was a master at getting other team's center in foul trouble.

The 77-78 Nuggets with Issel, Thompson, and Jones were great.

I always thought that had Larry Brown stayed they might have gotten over the hump. Doug Moe was okay but Brown really got them to challenge themselves and developed team chemistry.

See, even with the great ABA players that lost most of their prime to the ABA, Issel isn't a name I've ever heard mentioned in as high regards as Julius Erving, David Thompson, and George Gervin. 

I know. He was second fiddle to Thompson in Denver but still great. He and Thompson played well together under Larry Brown. Brown had really built something there but left.   You will just have to find some old playoff footage of Issel and decide for yourself. I assure you that he was a wonderful player.

Gervin is another who typically gets a bad rap. But here is how close he was:
79 lost in conference finals to Washington at Washington by 2 pts in game 7.
1978-79 26 SAS NBA 14 513 158 295   84 104 33 82 35 27 15 40 51 400 .536  .808 36.6 28.6 5.9 2.5 are his playoff stats that season.

8 Fri, May 4, 1979 @ Washington Bullets W  118 97
9 Sun, May 6, 1979 @ Washington Bullets L  95 115
10 Wed, May 9, 1979  Washington Bullets W  116 114 
11 Fri, May 11, 1979  Washington Bullets W  118 102
12 Sun, May 13, 1979 @ Washington Bullets L  103 107
13 Wed, May 16, 1979  Washington Bullets L  100 108
14 Fri, May 18, 1979 @ Washington Bullets L  105 107

Lost '82 conference finals to Magic's Lakers
Lost '83 conference finals to Magic's Lakers

Gervin lost to Moses Malone-led Houston Rockets in a couple of those seasons as well. Iceman was a great player, too.

Quote from: AB™ on June 14, 2011, 02:04:23 pm
Barry in '75, Hakeem in '93, some say Duncan in '03, and now Dirk in 2011 are all very impressive title runs because their respective teams simply because their supporting cast didn't consist of a lot else. 

RATTLER, I'm curious as to why you have Issel ranked so high?  I know he scored nearly 30,000 points in the ABA and NBA combined, but I've never seen him ranked in any top 50 list, never mind top 30.

AB, it just popped into my mind:  have you ever heard of Al Kaline? That is kind of the way I look at Issel. Great but few have ever heard of him and is rarely given his due. Kaline is one of the all-around greatest baseball players ever. Hit for average, power, and was gold glover but played for Tigers in Yankees Mantle era for much of his career. Best analogy I could come up with. Maybe Don Hutson in football, although I have seen him on a few lists.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 16, 2011, 11:17:33 pm

Quote from: AB™ on June 14, 2011, 02:04:23 pm
Barry in '75, Hakeem in '93, some say Duncan in '03, and now Dirk in 2011 are all very impressive title runs because their respective teams simply because their supporting cast didn't consist of a lot else. 

RATTLER, I'm curious as to why you have Issel ranked so high?  I know he scored nearly 30,000 points in the ABA and NBA combined, but I've never seen him ranked in any top 50 list, never mind top 30.

AB, it just popped into my mind:  have you ever heard of Al Kaline? That is kind of the way I look at Issel. Great but few have ever heard of him and is rarely given his due. Kaline is one of the all-around greatest baseball players ever. Hit for average, power, and was gold glover but played for Tigers in Yankees Mantle era for much of his career. Best analogy I could come up with. Maybe Don Hutson in football, although I have seen him on a few lists.

Yeah, I've heard of Kaline.  I'm almost as big of a MLB history nerd as I am with NBA history.  However, I do hold Kaline in a higher light in MLB history than I do Issel in NBA history.  But that's mostly because if the baseball history related books I've read more and heard more about Kaline than Issel in the NBA history related books I've read. 

Most real baseball people, know who Kaline is.

He played 22 years in the Bigs, and is a Hall of Famer (I have a picture of his plaque in the hall somewhere or another).


And, he still works for the Tigers in front office ops.

Like I said. It was best I could think of.

This is an off question but do you think Kobe will break Kareem's record of 38,387? Getting pretty close.

Kaline was one of the Greats and should be counted as one.  You are correct that he kinda gets lost in the Mantle, Mays, Aaron era.

Issel?  Not sure I'd put him up in the Hall of Fame category, but was certainly a tremenously gifted player.  Mostly noted for his shooting, but played with a lot of grit and a few lost teeth and a broken nose or two if I remember correctly.  He's one of those whose legacy looses a bit, (for whatever reason), because he played several years in the ABA.

It will be up to Kobe if he wants to hang on past the time he is great and just go for the record. He is capable but he looks to fall off sharply in the coming years. Not the age; it's the mileage!

Kaline was an all-time great but playing during the Mays/Mantle/Aaron era put him out of the public eye along with being in Detroit. Even Clemente, Robinson, and others are generally highly regarded and Kaline not even mentioned. 

Guido, this is what I think has happened to Issel. You already mentioned the ABA; but add that to playing in Denver, playing during the Kareem years with McAdoo, Gilmore, Lanier, Unseld, Cowens, even Sikma ahead of him in the public eye. Sikma because of back to back championship appearances.

Of course, I have already mentioned that it just might be me. I think he is HOF material. The data backs it up. His teams' success back it up. He met my eye test. He just was outside the big circle in the day.

He may end up like Dale Murphy and some from his era that looked like locks but preceeded the steroid/gaudy numbers era and may get lost in the shuffle.

Quote from: Peety on June 17, 2011, 11:38:43 am
This is an off question but do you think Kobe will break Kareem's record of 38,387? Getting pretty close.

No, and he's not "pretty close" either.  He's still 10,519 points away.  Kobe just finished up his 15th season and will turn 33 in August.

He is already showing signs of breaking down, so I'm not sure we'll see many more full 82 game seasons out of him.  Say he plays an average of 80 games per season for 5 more years.  That's 400 more games, so say he averages 25 points per game over those 400 games, then that would still leave him 519 points shy of Kareem.  Seeing as how he will be creeping closer to 40, I'm going to say he probably averages less than 80 games per season over the next 5-7 years (if he plays that long) and probably averages closer to 20-23 points per game.

It's not out of the question, but he'd have to play another 5 or 6 seasons averaging around 25 points per game.  I just don't see that happening.

I agree with AB that I don't think it will happen; I also think he will allow his scoring to decrease as his chances of winning titles must allow other options. It already happened this season. But........I saw Mays hang on, Farve hang on, etc. and if Kobe held on to 43 or so like Robert Parrish, Kareem, and company he could inch closer and closer. If he went to a bad team after his skills diminished some he could jack up shot after shot. Only Kobe can determine what will occur along those lines. But I think he will give it up when titles are no longer within his grasp.

Where do you guys rank Artis Gilmore, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, and Alex English?

These guys had great careers with great stats; they won a lot and even got to title games but......

I can't give you exact pinpoint rankings on those guys but....

Gilmore:  in the 70-100 range

Ewing:  top 40

Miller:  70-85 range

English:  About the same as Miller

And in case anyone forgot about just how good Michael Jordan was, check out 1st 3-peat MJ (1991-1993) in the NBA Finals


17 games
44.0 mpg
36.3 ppg
6.6 rpg
7.9 apg
2.0 spg
0.8 bpg
52.6% FG (245/466)
42.1% 3P (24/57)
80.5% FT (103/128)

In those 17 games...

-He scored 30+ points 14 times

- Had 5 40+ point games and two other 39 point games

-Scored 55 against the Suns in the '93 Finals

-Averaged 41.0 ppg on 50.7% shooting in the '93 Finals against Phoenix in 6 games


On the other hand, Kobe only shot above 50% in one of his Finals series (26.5 ppg on 51.4% shooting) and that was against the Nets in 2004.  In his other 6 NBA Finals the highest he shot from the floor was 42.9% (32.4 ppg) against the Magic in 2009 -- 5 games.  If you eliminate the 2004 Finals for Kobe, he shot just 40.2% from the floor in his other 6 NBA Finals series.

Oh, and you know the myth that Kobe being a much better three point shooter than Jordan is what makes Kobe nearly Jordan's equal in some people's eyes?

Jordan in 6 NBA Finals (35 games):  42/114 (36.8% 3P)
Kobe in 7 NBA Finals (38 games):  48/153 (31.4% 3P)

How old was Kareem when he retired?

42

Quote from: Peety on June 17, 2011, 04:38:22 pm
How old was Kareem when he retired?

He should have retired two seasons earlier than he did.  He was pretty worthless his final two seasons with the Lakers. 

He was okay offensively in the next to last season but his defense went south for the final 3 seasons. Foot speed was gone. His last season he was just a shell of himself on both ends of the floor.

Quote from: AB™ on June 17, 2011, 03:59:01 pm
And in case anyone forgot about just how good Michael Jordan was, check out 1st 3-peat MJ (1991-1993) in the NBA Finals


17 games
44.0 mpg
36.3 ppg
6.6 rpg
7.9 apg
2.0 spg
0.8 bpg
52.6% FG (245/466)
42.1% 3P (24/57)
80.5% FT (103/128)

In those 17 games...

-He scored 30+ points 14 times

- Had 5 40+ point games and two other 39 point games

-Scored 55 against the Suns in the '93 Finals

-Averaged 41.0 ppg on 50.7% shooting in the '93 Finals against Phoenix in 6 games


On the other hand, Kobe only shot above 50% in one of his Finals series (26.5 ppg on 51.4% shooting) and that was against the Nets in 2004.  In his other 6 NBA Finals the highest he shot from the floor was 42.9% (32.4 ppg) against the Magic in 2009 -- 5 games.  If you eliminate the 2004 Finals for Kobe, he shot just 40.2% from the floor in his other 6 NBA Finals series.

Oh, and you know the myth that Kobe being a much better three point shooter than Jordan is what makes Kobe nearly Jordan's equal in some people's eyes?

Jordan in 6 NBA Finals (35 games):  42/114 (36.8% 3P)
Kobe in 7 NBA Finals (38 games):  48/153 (31.4% 3P)

While I agree that MJ is the man, don't discount the eye test for athletes. Stats just do not tell the entire story. I have MJ at the top, then Kareem, then Magic and Bird. After a large step I have Kobe next.

Not only did MJ get it done statistically he did it with great elegance. His graceful airful acrobatics were a pleasure to watch; his in-your-eye shooting was old school cool; his drive the steak through your heart with a great block, steal, and/or shot was the thing that each of us dreamed of in our back yards. MJ was the man.

Quote from: AB™ on June 17, 2011, 03:52:52 pm
I can't give you exact pinpoint rankings on those guys but....

Gilmore:  in the 70-100 range

Ewing:  top 40

Miller:  70-85 range

English:  About the same as Miller

That's probably about right, but personally, I'd bump Gilmore a little higher, or at least lower that back-end number.  Why?  He was a great defensive player, which coupled with his productive offensive numbers moves him up some to me.

I got off my original point when I started thinking about MJ and his incredible plays.

Stats cannot tell you who defended you, who you had as teammates, what style of ball was played, or how the other team defended/played.

MJ would have been great no matter what so let's get that out of the way; but being guarded by Dan Majerle is not quite the same as being guarded by a Doc Rivers coached team or by the Pistons early in the last decade with Teyshaun Prince and company. MJ is far and away better than Kobe but I am always trying to preach that stats don't tell the entire story. Any team playing MJ knew that if the double team were to happen he would find a lethal 3-pt shooter in Kerr or Paxon, or hit Pippen for an easy drive. Kobe has not been surrounded by great 3-pt shooting. He also spent his early years with Shaq which did lead to titles but for stats sakes it clogged the driving lanes quite often. There is so much more to be considered than just stats.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2011, 08:48:07 pm
I got off my original point when I started thinking about MJ and his incredible plays.

Stats cannot tell you who defended you, who you had as teammates, what style of ball was played, or how the other team defended/played.

MJ would have been great no matter what so let's get that out of the way; but being guarded by Dan Majerle is not quite the same as being guarded by a Doc Rivers coached team or by the Pistons early in the last decade with Teyshaun Prince and company. MJ is far and away better than Kobe but I am always trying to preach that stats don't tell the entire story. Any team playing MJ knew that if the double team were to happen he would find a lethal 3-pt shooter in Kerr or Paxon, or hit Pippen for an easy drive. Kobe has not been surrounded by great 3-pt shooting. He also spent his early years with Shaq which did lead to titles but for stats sakes it clogged the driving lanes quite often. There is so much more to be considered than just stats.

I agree, but I can say Jordan was on a completely different level than Kobe when each was in their respective primes because I saw both of them play.

I agree, Kobe played against two spectacular defensive TEAMS in Detroit in the '04 Finals and Boston in the '08 and '10 Finals.  On the other hand, Jordan spent the entire '96 Finals being defended by one of the 3-5 best perimeter defenders of all-time in Gary Payton and, despite that being his worst Finals performance, he still put up numbers in that series on par with what Kobe did in pretty much every Finals series he played in -- save 2002.  And this can be looked at as an excuse, but I have read on several occasions where Jordan's teammates, coaches, and other people who watched and followed the NBA closely during Jordan's return, (2nd 3-peat) say Jordan was better in 1996-1997 (first year they beat the Jazz) than in 1995-1996 when they beat the Sonics.  He was still, more or less, spending basically the entire 1995-1996 season getting back into basketball shape/form, and was really back in 1996-1997. 

I understand that stats don't tell the entire story but Kobe has never been on Jordan's level, and it's not like Kobe played in 7 NBA Finals against 7 great defenses.  The Celtics did have a great defensive team which slowed him down, but he spent most of those two series being defended by Ray Allen who, for all intents and purposes, has never been hailed as a good defender.  I also don't recall the 2000 Pacers, 2001 76ers, 2002 Nets, or the 2009 Magic having great perimeter defenders. 

Agreed. I prefaced it by saying MJ is at the top. I think he would have been great against any defender. I just think Kobe is great. But not the greatest.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2011, 09:31:23 pm
Agreed. I prefaced it by saying MJ is at the top. I think he would have been great against any defender. I just think Kobe is great. But not the greatest.

I have Kobe in my top 10, too.  Shouldn't have made it sound like he's not a great player haha.

I just think the gap between Michael Jordan and every other guard in NBA history is quite bit.  Even the gap from Jordan (the best guard ever) to Magic (second best guard ever) is pretty big, but it's hard to compare those two since Magic and MJ were such completely different players.

But, IMO, the gap between MJ and that next group of great scoring guards -- Kobe, West, Oscar -- is HUGE.  Regardless of who he played against and beat in the 1st 3peat (Lakers, Blazers, Suns) what Jordan did in those three championship runs is borderline truly unbelievable. 

And it should also be noted, if you go back and look at the other all-time great players who were apart of at least 3 championship series, they also played against teams with favorable match-ups in order for them to put up good numbers.  I mean look at Shaq during the Lakers 3-peat:  15 games, 35.9 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.9 bpg, 59.5% FG.  That alone will help you understand why some people consider Shaq the most dominant center in NBA history.  He put up 36/15.5/3blk on nearly 60% shooting en-route to 3 championships.  Then you have to remember he went up against the likes of Rik Smits and Todd MaCulloch, and an old Dikembe Mutombo during that 3-peat.   

I think your point about the opposing defenses probably hits the nail on the head as to why playing in the ABA brings a lot of these guys down.  Let's just say the ABA, as a league, was not noted for its defense.  That was their main marketing tool.  They wanted excitement and flash.  In a word, "OFFENSE".  There WERE some great defensive players, but for the most part it was all about offense.  That's the biggest knock on Gervin.  I'm not sure if he ever went to the other end of the floor til he went to the NBA.

I know. I watched Bobby Jones, who was an extraordinary defender, play D on Dr. J in the old ABA and it looked as if he were supposed to let him score.

I, too, agree that MJ is way ahead of the next SG in history whomever anyone puts there. I will stay out of the argument about the gap size between MJ and Magic. Two different players/positions. But the gap is still there.

More later.... On to a birthday party.

Yes, Guido, I think it hurts players who starred in the ABA even when they became awesome in the NBA afterward. They struggled to kick the taint. The old school NBA made sure of that. But history shows that they were in fact great: Rick Barry came home and led them to the title; Dr. J, World B. Free, George Mc. and company made their first NBA title series, Gervin, Kenon, Paultz, Dampier and company were playoff regularly and made WCF. Gilmore was with them in their second major run of early 80s. Bobby Jones joined Sixers and Moses Malone for title appearances and finally a title. Issel, Jones, and Thompson led Nuggets to the brink. I guess I just have a soft spot for the ABA greats.

Back to the discussion of greatness.
Rating players with 1000 being a perfect score.

1. MJ  990    He loses points for not winning the title every season!; no, seriously, he loses points for early outside shot, early passing, and late career shooting while with Wizards. In his prime he was nearly a perfect player.

2. Kareem 978  He loses points for lack of titles in 70s and for hanging on too long; if you rate him from rookie season to 1985 he is nearly a perfect score as well. He did not win many titles but he was surrounded by mediocrity. Proof:  He made the conference finals only to be swept by a vastly superior Blazers team. Look at the shooting pcts. of this Lakers squad and tell me how great Kareem had to be to get them there.

1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 29 11 467 147 242   87 120 51 195 45 19 38  42 381 .607  .725 42.5 34.6 17.7 4.1
2 Cazzie Russell 32 11 382 65 157   44 50 22 48 25 16 1  33 174 .414  .880 34.7 15.8 4.4 2.3
3 Earl Tatum 23 11 356 67 134   16 24 16 54 27 15 9  34 150 .500  .667 32.4 13.6 4.9 2.5
4 Don Ford 24 11 333 42 98   27 36 22 58 37 17 4  28 111 .429  .750 30.3 10.1 5.3 3.4
5 Don Chaney 30 11 412 36 96   16 22 24 52 48 21 3  32 88 .375  .727 37.5 8.0 4.7 4.4
6 Lucius Allen 29 7 186 32 82   13 19 7 32 24 11 3  18 77 .390  .684 26.6 11.0 4.6 3.4

3. Magic  975  Early outside shot was horrible; had the year of the turnover against the Celtics and DJ in '84; other than that he rates as high as any player.

4. Larry Bird  975  Lack of longevity hurts him; wish he had been healthy for at least 4 more seasons; his defensive mind was incredible but sometimes his footspeed was very beatable(Worthy showed it time and time again with quick first step).

5. Kobe Bryant  945  Lack of great passing ability puts him lower on list than Magic and Bird. All else is great about Kobe.

6. Russell  920  Lack of all around offensive game. His defense, rebounding, and passing as a big man, plus leadership, intangibles, and determination are all 1000; his title count puts him above Shaq and Wilt although I would take Shaq in his prime over Russell in his or I would take both and put Shaq at center and Russell at power forward. Free shot shooting was atrocious like almost all great big men.

7.  Shaq  915  Horrible free shot shooting plus only developed other facets of offensive game later on. He relied on his low post dominance early in career because nobody could stop it.

8. Wilt 915  Just did not lead teams to titles like he should have; horrible free shot shooting;

9.  Tim Duncan  910  No weaknesses but not the greatest at anything. He was not a top-notch free shot shooter.

10. Dr. J  910  Played early part of career in ABA so it is difficult to judge properly. I have seen numerous interviews with Magic Johnson where he holds Dr. J in high esteem. If you count the ABA days equally (which I know you cannot do) then the good Dr. moves up to about 975.

I used weaknesses to explain why each of these is not at 1000. We can discuss what they were good at all night long.

Of the big men on this list, Kareem is the only one that shot free shots relatively well.

Areas rated for overall score:
1  "it" quality  (MJ is the epitome of "it" quality)
2. Championship/winning rating (Bill Russell dominates this category)
3. Scoring ability (Wilt Chamberlain is at the head of this class)
4. Defensive ability (Kareem/Russell/Michael Cooper, etc.describe this category)
5. Outside shooting (Larry Bird is tops because he did it in regular season, playoffs, All star shooting contest, and in crucial situations even when the other team knew it(because he told them he was going to do it) was coming and in the crunch time).
6. Post play (Kareem is unparalleled; his footwork was impeccable and the sky hook was good up to 20 feet. If you do not believe it, go look at the championship series back in early 70s when he hit game winning shot with hook at 20 feet). Hakeem, Timmy boy, and Shaq were awesome as well.
7. Rebounding (Russell and Wilt in the era; Dennis Rodman in our era)
8. Ball-handling (Magic and Stockton come to mind)
9. Passing (Magic and Bird were best at their positions)
10. Free shooting (Barry, Bird, and toward end of career-Magic; Dirk in today's NBA)
Bonus for leadership/intangibles/clutch (Derek Fisher is a prime example of high score in this area but not in many of the others; Robert Horry is another; Reggie Miller as well) MJ, Magic, and Bird are at the top of this list as well. Bird was just so crafty; he thought the game so well; He demanded so much of his team on the floor during a game. His expectations were to win every time out. Magic could just make sick plays involving teammates and making the rest of the NBA look slow; Magic is the best ever at getting the most out of every player on his team while on the floor. If you were not ready for a pass he might just break your nose with a quick pass. MJ was so driven like the first two and possessed the athleticism to do things that no player had done since Dr. J and then doing so much more. Then he developed every area of his game seeming to rise above all that had preceded him. All three put in so much practice time working on areas of the game(especially outside shooting and free shots). They are just winners.

Just some others that have to be mentioned in some of those categories in my opinion...

Free Throw Shooting:  Has to include Mark Price, Steve Nash and Ray Allen. 

Post Play:  The ones you mentioned are all at the top of anyone's list, but you can't leave out Kevin McHale. 

Defensive Category:  I know you mentioned Michael Cooper, who is one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, but how about some others?...

Michael Jordan, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, and Gary Payton would probably be in most people's top 10-15 perimeter defenders of all-time.  And then there's some current players that belong in the discussion, too, like Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant. 

And how about some the ultra-versatile defensive greats...

Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Bobby Jones, Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier.

I love it. This is my kind of stuff. Moncrief and McHale's strengths are often overlooked due to short career or overshadowed by greatness. Reggie Miller for FT shooting along with Calvin Murphy. The lists just go on and on. Put your top 5 or 10 in each list if you like. I probably will go back and do so.

* I did give Dennis Johnson credit in my rating of Magic Johnson, though I did not mention him in my explanation and examples of defense.

I was giving credit to DJ while also pointing out that Magic turned it over much that finals. Magic had to learn how to handle the Celtic D with DJ covering him. Even greats have a learning curve. Magic's was in an area he had ultimate greatness.

While we are on the subject, I have DJ as one of my top 10 all-time Shooting Guards. I know he played point for the Celtics quite a lot but he played the 2-guard for most of his career and he did not need incredible point guard skills when they met the Lakers in the finals. He was brought in by Auerbach to help defeat the Sixers and Lakers by defending Andrew Toney and Magic.

Sometimes while making lists I forget to add him. He was great on both ends.

I'll give this a shot.  Some of these lists aren't exactly what you had and I'm going to break them down by perimeter players and interior players.


Top Scorers - based solely on scoring ability and scoring ease

Perimeter Players
1.  Michael Jordan
2.  Kobe Bryant
3.  Elgin Baylor
4.  George Gervin
5.  Dominique Wilkins
6.  Rick Barry
7.  George Gervin
8.  David Thompson
9.  Bernard King
10. LeBron James

Interior Players
1.  Wilt Chamberlain
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.  Kevin McHale
4.  Hakeem Olajuwon
5.  Karl Malone
6.  Elvin Hayes
7.  Shaquille O'Neal
8.  Dirk Nowitzki (technically he's a frontcourt/interior player)
9.  Tim Duncan
10.  Moses Malone

With the interior players I took into consideration things like variety of post-moves and mid-range effectiveness.  For all intents and purposes there's never been anyone as unstoppable as Shaq, but outside of just being to strong and athletic for anyone that ever tried to guard him, he couldn't score much further out than 4 or 5 feet. 



Top Defenders

Perimeter Players
1.  Scottie Pippen
2.  Sidney Moncrief
3.  Gary Payton
4.  Michael Jordan
5.  Michael Cooper
6.  Alvin Robertson
7.  Dennis Johnson
8.  Joe Dumars
9.  Ron Artest
10. Kobe Bryant (1st 3peat Kobe was suffocating as an on-ball defender)

Interior Players
1.  Bill Russell
2.  Hakeem Olajuwon
3.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4.  Wilt Chamberlain
5.  Dennis Rodman
6.  Tim Duncan
7.  Ben Wallace
8.  Kevin Garnett
9.  Elvin Hayes
10. Patrick Ewing

Honorable Mention  Dwight Howard, Dave Cowens, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal...there have been so many great defensive big men throughout NBA history.



That pretty much encompasses every player on both ends of the floor.  Most of those players are interchangeable.  Just because I have someone at #2 and someone else at #4 doesn't necessarily mean I firmly believe #2 was better than #4.  I basically just started listing players off the top of my head.

I like it.

Perimeter Players
1.  Michael Jordan
2.  Kobe Bryant
3.  Dr. J
4.  George Gervin
5.  Elgin Baylor
6.  Rick Barry
7.  Carmelo Anthony
8.  David Thompson
9.  Bernard King
10. D-Wade

Interior Players
1.  Wilt Chamberlain
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.  Shaq
4.  Moses Malone
5.  Karl Malone
6.  Elvin Hayes
7.  Hakeem
8.  Dirk Nowitzki
9.  Tim Duncan
10.  Kevin McHale

Top Defenders

Perimeter Players
1.  Scottie Pippen
2.  Sidney Moncrief
3.  Gary Payton
4.  Michael Jordan
5.  Michael Cooper
6.  Alvin Robertson
7.  Dennis Johnson
8.  Joe Dumars
9.  Ron Artest
10. Kobe Bryant

Interior Players
1.  Kareem in his prime
2.  Bill Russell (he dominated rebounding and games with only Wilt in league at same time; Wilt's offensive stats against Russell are actually quite impressive; He just could not beat the Celtics team)
3.  Hakeem
4.  Wilt Chamberlain
5.  Dennis Rodman
6.  Tim Duncan
7.  Ben Wallace
8.  Kevin Garnett
9.  David Robinson
10. Patrick Ewing


I just tweaked yours to use as my own.

One player I've become more familiar with and more pleasantly impressed with is Elvin Hayes.  He was a very good two-way player.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 18, 2011, 08:48:13 pm
Areas rated for overall score:
1  "it" quality  (MJ, Magic, Bird, DWade, Russell, Dr. J, Kareem, Kobe, Jerry West, Shaq)
2. Championship/winning rating (Bill Russell, Kareem, MJ, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, Dr. J, DJ)
3. Scoring ability (Wilt Chamberlain, MJ, Gervin, Dr. J, Shaq, Moses Malone, Kareem, Kobe, DWade, Karl Malone)
4. Defensive ability (Kareem/Russell/Michael Cooper, Dwade, DJ, Rodman, Moncrief, Dumars, MJ, Pippen)
5. Outside shooting (Larry Bird, Dirk*, Andrew Toney, Ray Allen, MJ, Reggie Miller, Kobe, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Jerry West)
6. Post play Kareem, Hakeem, Timmy boy, Shaq, McHale, Wilt, KG, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, MJ-yes, he was great in the post)
7. Rebounding (Russell, Dennis Rodman, Wilt, KG, Pettit, Kareem first 10 years, Duncan, Wes Unseld, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone)
8. Ball-handling (Magic, Stockton, Cousy, Nash, Price, Tiny, Pistol Pete, Rondo, Mark Jackson, Kidd)
9. Passing (Magic, Bird, Stockton, Pistol Pete, Lebron, Bill Walton, Big O, Nash, Cousy, Kidd)
10. Free shooting (Barry, Bird, Miller, Murphy, Magic; Dirk, MJ, Mullin, Allen, Gervin)
Bonus for leadership/intangibles/clutch (Magic, MJ, Bird, Russell, Dr. J, Jerry West, Kareem)

Outside shooters who you might not have heard of or have forgotten:
Ricky Pierce(Bucks of late Moncrief era)
Byron Scott(the most unheralded great player from Magic's Lakers)
Phil Chenier(from Elvin Hayes group)
Brian Winters(early Moncrief era)
Paul Westphal (for one year he was my favorite player then he began to fall from grace for me.
Downtown Freddie Brown for those Supersonics with DJ and Sikma(I spent the summer with my grandparents and stayed up watching them although they knew nothing about basketball) Great memories.

You mentioned Elvin Hayes. I read somewhere that the Hayes Bullets were the winningest team of the 70s. I know that is who Kareem and the Bucks defeated for the title in '71(Hayes was not yet with them). They lost to Rick Barry and then again to DJ's Supersonics. They won one title. 4 finals is nice. Hayes got to 3.
They made the finals 4 times and Eastern conference semis all 10 seasons. I am still baffled by their loss to Rick Barry's Warriors. They lost by 1 pt twice and by 6 and by 8. Close games all but still.....

Good read about Bob Dandridge. I had forgotten how really good he was. http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2010/08/bob-dandridge-reconsidered.html

Good read on comparisons of Dr. J, Kobe, Lebron, and MJ.  http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2006/07/rod-thorn-offers-his-take-on-dr-j-air.html

All time greats commentary  http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/07/julius-ervings-all-time-starting-five.html

I have been reading for hours now. I read MJ's and Tex Winter's takes on MJ-Kobe comparison. They said that Kobe was close and that was after the loss to Boston a few years back. One would think they think he closed the gap over the next three seasons. I still think MJ is the cat's meow but think Kobe is top 5. In the article he mentions how much larger MJ's hands were than Kobe's. Dr. J's were huge as well. I think it is a very meaningful thing. If you go find the original article Winter discusses Kobe being asked to do so much more offensively that he took breaks on defense. Not a good thing. MJ was stellar on both ends and even changed games with his D.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/09/michael-jordan-and-tex-winter-discuss.html

Quote from: AB™ on June 18, 2011, 10:34:02 pm
One player I've become more familiar with and more pleasantly impressed with is Elvin Hayes.  He was a very good two-way player.

Hayes was an incredibly gifted player.  In 1968, in the FIRST Nationally televised regular season college game, his Houston Cougars ended UCLA and Lew Alcindor's, (Kareem Abdul Jabaar, for those too young to remember), 47 game win streak.  In that game Hayes scored around 40 pts and a ton of rebounds while shutting down Alcindor to about 15 points even though he was 3-4 inches shorter.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 19, 2011, 01:15:44 am
Good read about Bob Dandridge. I had forgotten how really good he was. http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2010/08/bob-dandridge-reconsidered.html

Yes, Dandridge was a very good all-around player.  Not a prolifice scorer, but he could produce when needed, (especially in big games), but a VERY good defender and very athletic.

That was the game in college until Magic-Bird championship game. Houston was incredible, too. They had two All Americans themselves in Hayes and Don Chaney. Lew was injured but the loss may have been the best thing that could have happened for him, UCLA, and college basketball.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 19, 2011, 09:30:22 am
That was the game in college until Magic-Bird championship game. Houston was incredible, too. They had two All Americans themselves in Hayes and Don Chaney. Lew was injured but the loss may have been the best thing that could have happened for him, UCLA, and college basketball.

It was the FIRST college game to be Nationally televised.  Sold out the Astrodome, something like 58,000.

Reading about Sidney Moncrief. Man, he was good. HOF play but not quite long enough and in too small a market to get support needed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120058/1/index.htm

While reading it was asked who was the 2nd best shooting guard of the 80s: Drexler or Moncrief?  I put it to you that Moncrief was the better player but length of career puts Drexler ahead. Drexler was in the finals a couple of times as well. Moncrief just could not get past the Dr. J/Moses Malone Sixers or the Larry Bird Celtics although the Bucks were great during that era. Moncrief was good at every phase of the game.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 19, 2011, 08:29:51 pm
While reading it was asked who was the 2nd best shooting guard of the 80s: Drexler or Moncrief?  I put it to you that Moncrief was the better player but length of career puts Drexler ahead. Drexler was in the finals a couple of times as well. Moncrief just could not get past the Dr. J/Moses Malone Sixers or the Larry Bird Celtics although the Bucks were great during that era. Moncrief was good at every phase of the game.

Well, it's not like Clyde Drexler was kept from a championship by chopped liver.  He was the best player on two different NBA Finals runner-up teams, and lost once to the Bad Boy Pistons, and once to that Michael Jordan guy who was in the middle of a ridiculous 3 years Finals run where he put up insane numbers.  Clyde definitely wasn't the defensive player Moncrief was (although he was a very solid defender) but on the flip-side, Moncrief wasn't the offensive player Clyde was. 

I personally rank Clyde slightly higher than Moncrief, but part of that reasoning is due to Moncrief's career not being very long.  Had Moncrief been able to stay healthy I"m almost positive he would have gone on and done enough to be considered a top 30-40 player all-time.  Instead, he lies (in most lists I've seen) in the 50-75 range, usually closer to to the 60-75 range.

This all brings up thought for another good thread.  Not sure what it should be called though.  Thought about calling it the "Best NBA Players with LESS than 10 years", but when I got to looking, Maravich played 10 seasons, (not all of them healthy).  Bernard King played 14 yrs.

What I'm wondering is, who are some of the guys who, like Maravich, put up some incredible numbers over a 2-3-4 year span, but career's never panned out after that due to injuries, drugs, or what ever reason.  There are a lot of those guys out there.  World B. Free?  Sam Bowie?...

We might have to put some specifics. Bill Walton only had a handful of full seasons. I think he fits the category. David Thompson. Andrew Toney, Shawn Kemp. Reggie Lewis. Yao. Grant Hill*

Keep it going on this thread. Seeing if it can hit 2,000 before next basketball season.

Brad Daugherty and Maurice Stokes. Read this article to gain insight.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/steve_aschburner/01/03/stokes.shortened.careers/

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 21, 2011, 06:34:13 pm
We might have to put some specifics. Bill Walton only had a handful of full seasons. I think he fits the category. David Thompson. Andrew Toney, Shawn Kemp. Reggie Lewis. Yao. Grant Hill*

Keep it going on this thread. Seeing if it can hit 2,000 before next basketball season.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to quantify or what ever, but when I got to looking at some, like Bernard King I noticed that he actually played 14 years quite a few of those were NOT spectacular, but 14 years is considerably above the NBA average.

I think David Thompson is the best I have seen that showed evidence of true greatness then fell off the cliff for whatever reason; Brad Daugherty was possibly the most consistently good then was gone; Bill Walton had best opportunity for overall greatness individually and teamwise, then.....; Stokes was before my time but how sad.

I think Bernard King, Bill Walton, and Grant Hill all had long careers which had much taken out during the tenures but still fit your model. I am sure there are others.

Bill Simmons  (I get a lot of my NBA historical perspective from him) always says something like...

And this is one I've heard him bring up recently...

Bird was essentially an 'A+' for all of his healthy career, which wasn't even a decade long.  Would you rather have peak Bird for just 5 years, or have Dirk who has been a solid 'B+' to 'A' type player for 12 years and counting?

Think of it this way, peak Bird was a transcendent player who's peak is only eclipsed by 3-5 players in NBA history.  Dirk has never approached peak Larry Bird but he's still been a very, very good player for 12 seasons.

I don't think you can go wrong with either but.....give me Bird for 5 peak years!

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 22, 2011, 10:09:37 am
I don't think you can go wrong with either but.....give me Bird for 5 peak years!

Yeah, same here.  Bird in his peak when he had like 5 transcendentally great seasons you were almost guaranteed at least 2 championships in any era.  Even though Dirk has been really, really, really good for 12 years, he's still got just 1 championship to show for it during that time. 

That argument I think works best when you get down to the players ranked in the 25+ range and comparing similar players at the same  position.

Quote from: AB™ on June 22, 2011, 11:28:45 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 22, 2011, 10:09:37 am
I don't think you can go wrong with either but.....give me Bird for 5 peak years!

Yeah, same here.  Bird in his peak when he had like 5 transcendentally great seasons you were almost guaranteed at least 2 championships in any era.  Even though Dirk has been really, really, really good for 12 years, he's still got just 1 championship to show for it during that time. 

That argument I think works best when you get down to the players ranked in the 25+ range and comparing similar players at the same  position.

Here's a thought for you.  Take Bird and put him on the Mav's teams Dirk had to play with, ...and Dirk and put HIM on the Celtics teams Bird played with,...and how many Championships do each of them end up with?

Put Dirk with Celtics and they still get one but lose the special one that even Bird says Lakers should have swept in '84 and get beat by Dr. J Sixers in '81. Put Bird on Mavs and they have two right now. Of course it is all speculation but that is how I have it.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 22, 2011, 05:04:12 pm
:ut Dirk with Celtics and they still get one but lose the special one that even Bird says Lakers should have swept in '84 and get beat by Dr. J Sixers in '81. Put Bird on Mavs and they have two right now. Of course it is all speculation but that is how I have it.

I think the Mavs would have won in '06 with Bird in place of Dirk.  I think those Celtics teams get at least one, maybe 2 with Dirk in the 80's.  I'm not so sure, though, if the 2007 Mavs make a run at the title with Bird instead of Dirk.  Does Bird take a 66-16 Mavs team with the one seed and lose in the 1st round to Golden State??  Surely not, right?

I agree. Mavs with Bird get two if not more. I still think Celts only get one with Dirk in place of Bird in that era.

Bird just willed his team to be better and to win when they should not be able to win. Some athletes over the years have something about them that is indescribable but still palpable in their presence. In my lifetime, few have possessed it: Bird, Magic, MJ, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, John Elway, The Great One, Mark Messier. The list is very small.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry
15. KG
16. Bob Pettit
17. Moses Malone
18. D Wade
19. Charles Barkley
20. Hondo
21. James Worthy
22. Kevin McHale
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Scottie Pippen
26. John Stockton
27. George Mikan
28. George Gervin
29. Dan Issel
30. Isaiah Thomas
31. Lebron 
32. David Robinson
33. Sidney Moncrief/Bill Walton(each would have been much higher but had shortened careers due to injuries)
34. Paul Pierce
35. Elgin Baylor
36. Steve Nash
37. Bobby Jones
38. Elvin Hayes
39. Earl the Pearl
40. Patrick Ewing
41. Artis Gilmore
42. 'nique
43. Clyde Drexler
44. Bob Cousy
45. Bob Lanier
46. Dennis Johnson
47. Jamaal Wilkes
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Pistol Pete
50. Dennis Rodman

Lebron now has opportunity to move into top ten. Lead Heat to title this year and I put him at 10. If Duncan leads Spurs to title then I move him up one spot.  Wade up to 13 with another title. 

Lol, any list without LBJ in the top two is laughable.

He is arguably the best player to ever step on the court, if not the best, most certainly the second.

If the ranking was for pure athleticism then maybe.  For regular season then yes.  But for all time.  No.  I would take Magic, Bird, Kareem, or Kobe in prime over Lebron.  they were driven.  Had "it" quality which Lebron lacks. 

1.  Michael Jordan
2.  Wilt Chamberland
3.  Magic Johnson
4.  Larry Bird
5.  Dr. J
6.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7.  Jerry West
8.  Pete Maravich
9.  Bill Russell
10. Kobe Bryant

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 16, 2013, 10:31:18 pm
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry
15. KG
16. Bob Pettit
17. Moses Malone
18. D Wade
19. Charles Barkley
20. Hondo
21. James Worthy
22. Kevin McHale
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Scottie Pippen
26. John Stockton
27. George Mikan
28. George Gervin
29. Dan Issel
30. Isaiah Thomas
31. Lebron 
32. David Robinson
33. Sidney Moncrief/Bill Walton(each would have been much higher but had shortened careers due to injuries)
34. Paul Pierce
35. Elgin Baylor
36. Steve Nash
37. Bobby Jones
38. Elvin Hayes
39. Earl the Pearl
40. Patrick Ewing
41. Artis Gilmore
42. 'nique
43. Clyde Drexler
44. Bob Cousy
45. Bob Lanier
46. Dennis Johnson
47. Jamaal Wilkes
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Pistol Pete
50. Dennis Rodman

Lebron now has opportunity to move into top ten. Lead Heat to title this year and I put him at 10. If Duncan leads Spurs to title then I move him up one spot.  Wade up to 13 with another title. 

Need to add Bernard King in there somewhere. He was a scoring machine back in the day.

He, Alex English, and other great scorers are just outside my top 50. The Pistol barely got in. But I saw him play. Was unstoppable at times.

I'm not a huge NBA guy, but I did follow the league starting in the mid 90s, dropping off in the last five years or so.  I'm a history buff and a sports buff, so I've read up on the history of the game.  Even so, I'm probably the least qualified poster in the thread, but here goes (as they come to mind, no particular order):

Jordan
Wilt
Bill Russell
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Dr. J
Shaq
Jerry West
Karl Malone

Just to throw mine out there...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Robertson
8. Duncan
9. O'Neal
10. Bryant

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry

I now have Lebron at 11 and Wade at 14 just behind Oscar Robertson.  Lebron really scaling the heights now. 

Quote from: Breitontime on June 16, 2013, 10:43:24 pm
Lol, any list without LBJ in the top two is laughable.

He is arguably the best player to ever step on the court, if not the best, most certainly the second.

Politically we are in tune.  On LeBron, not so much.  MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem and Kobe, then maybe LeBron.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bill Russell
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon (dominated Shaq, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson at their prime)
9. Shaquille O-Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

Maybe, Mack.

LBJ has two titles, two championship series MVP's, four regular season MVP's. Is statistically even with MJ at the same age. He's in his prime, will get better.

Had MJ not tried the whole baseball thing, it probably wouldn't even be a talking point, but, he did.

Quote from: Breitontime on June 21, 2013, 08:44:10 pm
Maybe, Mack.

LBJ has two titles, two championship series MVP's, four regular season MVP's. Is statistically even with MJ at the same age. He's in his prime, will get better.

Had MJ not tried the whole baseball thing, it probably wouldn't even be a talking point, but, he did.

Bill Russell had 11 titles, 5 NBA MVPs, and Finals MVP wasn't awarded until the year he retired, but is named for him.  That's a guy that generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

Wilt was twice a champion, 4 times an NBA MVP, once a Finals MVP, and is still the only man to score a hundred in an NBA game.  He's another who generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

When LeBron wins a third straight, quits and tries another sport because he's bored, comes back and wins three more, we can start talking about him being in Jordan's vicinity, but it should probably be noted that he's playing in an era where the League's talent level as a whole isn't what it used to be.  Assemble whatever all star team you want from current players and the '92 Dream Team would still beat them without even needing all their depth.

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted. And as a person who hasn't watched the NBA since right before Jordan's last title but watched the last 2 games of the finals this year, I can honestly say that LBJ only plays good hard defense 1 out of 4 times down the court and Jordan played every time down. I haven't been eased into seeing no defense being played over the years so it was a shock to me.

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation!  ;)

Quote from: Valleysports on June 22, 2013, 07:22:30 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation!  ;)

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted. And as a person who hasn't watched the NBA since right before Jordan's last title but watched the last 2 games of the finals this year, I can honestly say that LBJ only plays good hard defense 1 out of 4 times down the court and Jordan played every time down. I haven't been eased into seeing no defense being played over the years so it was a shock to me.

I wouldn't say a player that's 6'-8" 250 lbs and can play 4 positions on the court is clumsy! What LBJ can do at his size is what makes him one of the best of all time. No he's not as slippery as Jordan or Kobe but heck look at the size difference. There has never been a player LBJ's size that does what he can do Magic is close but he was not near the athlete LBJ. A lot of people point to the lack of championships or use them as gauge of greatness. For sure that is important but should not be the only measuring stick. If so are we to believe that Bill Russell is nearly two time better than Jordan?!

I am not saying he's the best of all time yet but he up there with the best! 

Quote from: zebradynasty on June 22, 2013, 09:32:01 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted. And as a person who hasn't watched the NBA since right before Jordan's last title but watched the last 2 games of the finals this year, I can honestly say that LBJ only plays good hard defense 1 out of 4 times down the court and Jordan played every time down. I haven't been eased into seeing no defense being played over the years so it was a shock to me.

I wouldn't say a player that's 6'-8" 250 lbs and can play 4 positions on the court is clumsy! What LBJ can do at his size is what makes him one of the best of all time. No he's not as slippery as Jordan or Kobe but heck look at the size difference. There has never been a player LBJ's size that does what he can do Magic is close but he was not near the athlete LBJ. A lot of people point to the lack of championships or use them as gauge of greatness. For sure that is important but should not be the only measuring stick. If so are we to believe that Bill Russell is nearly two time better than Jordan?!

I am not saying he's the best of all time yet but he up there with the best!

Magic may have been the smartest player ever. He didn't turn the ball over much for his size. Athletic ability No, doesn't come close to LBJ.

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

It's a lot easier to look good in an ear wih a comparative dearth of talent.  There's probably not four guys playing right now that could've made the Dream Team, and they'd a water on the bench.  Shaq didn't even make the Dream Team, and he's right up there with LeBron and Kobe as most dominant players post-Jordan.

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:28:51 am

Quote from: Valleysports on June 22, 2013, 07:22:30 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation!  ;)

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

Actually this is inaccurate!  Go look at the end of the Spurs vs Miami thread, as soon as it was over the first thing said was - well Labron still isn't as good as Jordan.  ::)  Why was that even brought up?  It's the Haters and their fear that he's on track to be as good as Jordan who won't shut up.   :D  Go look at the Labron Thread, I'll bet without looking myself, a Labron Hater jumped in and tried to compare him to Jordan...  Now I'm going to look...  ;D

I am not a Lebron fan but I recognize greatness.  I have him at #11 on my all time list at this point in his career. Could hit top 5 within 2 years.  But give it time.  Many players have great runs.  Let's see if Lebron continues toward his unmatched potential.  He could very well become the greatest ever or hit a wall or plateau like other athletes have. Just enjoy his game because it is great. 

Thank You ^ +1  :)

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:28:51 am

Quote from: Valleysports on June 22, 2013, 07:22:30 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation!  ;)

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

This link (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29844/todays-crunch-time-best-vs-air-jordan) says Jordan did throw up some bricks with games on the line....

All greats have.  Saw Bird miss one against Lakers back in the day. I just knew it was in.  Couldn't believe Lakers let home get the clean look then couldn't believe he missed. 

Also saw Magic be plagued with turnovers in his first finals vs. celtics and DJ.

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 21, 2013, 11:57:03 pm

Quote from: Breitontime on June 21, 2013, 08:44:10 pm
Maybe, Mack.

LBJ has two titles, two championship series MVP's, four regular season MVP's. Is statistically even with MJ at the same age. He's in his prime, will get better.

Had MJ not tried the whole baseball thing, it probably wouldn't even be a talking point, but, he did.

Bill Russell had 11 titles, 5 NBA MVPs, and Finals MVP wasn't awarded until the year he retired, but is named for him.  That's a guy that generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

Wilt was twice a champion, 4 times an NBA MVP, once a Finals MVP, and is still the only man to score a hundred in an NBA game.  He's another who generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

When LeBron wins a third straight, quits and tries another sport because he's bored, comes back and wins three more, we can start talking about him being in Jordan's vicinity, but it should probably be noted that he's playing in an era where the League's talent level as a whole isn't what it used to be.  Assemble whatever all star team you want from current players and the '92 Dream Team would still beat them without even needing all their depth.

GOt one of those titles as a player/coach to...

Didn't Russell start in an eight team league, and finish with twelve?

Probability of winning was much greater then.

Began with 8; finished in 14 team league. 

Truth of it is, it's harder to win a title now than then.

Especially when you have Stern stepping in like he did with Paul to the Lakers bit.

Maciks and birds first finals were rookie year werent they? Or am i thinking wrong

Magic's yes.  Bird no.   Magic and Lakers vs. Dr. J and Sixers that first year.  Bird and Boston over Houston in year two.

So lets not compare a rookie year in the finals with someone who is 28 yo and in his 3rd finals. Unless we are going to say magics rookie year he was as good as lbj now

There are rooks in the finals every year. That comes in on the team part.

Someone compared magics first finals turnovers with lbjs this year. That says that as a rookie magic could play as well as lbj now.

No, it doesn't.

You are comparing one facet of the game.

LBJ has averaged 3.22 turnovers his career
Magic averaged 3.87 turnovers his career.

Lebron could be on any Galaxies all star team....

Better than Jordan as a player ..... most definitely. Better as a Jordan polished promoter of himself .... no.

Quote from: fastdrop on June 24, 2013, 09:29:47 am
Lebron could be on any Galaxies all star team....

Better than Jordan as a player ..... most definitely. Better as a Jordan polished promoter of himself .... no.

LBJ probably has better character than Jordan unless we find out he was like 24 when he played High school ball. man he looks old for 28 and always has looked old. lol

Quote from: fastdrop on June 24, 2013, 09:29:47 am
Lebron could be on any Galaxies all star team....
Agreed. 
Better than Jordan as a player ..... most definitely. Not yet.

Better as a Jordan polished promoter of himself .... no.  No big need in today's media.  I know more about Ginobli, Bosh, or most any player now than 99% of players during MJ era. 

Lebron is most athletically gifted that I have seen.  Skill sets are great and just keep improving. Intangibles are so much better now than just two years ago.  An all time great.  Yes.  But better than MJ?   Not yet.     At least not in my opinion.  Will have to stack up a few more great seasons.   Right now he is Pujols, Aaron Rodgers, etc.  truly great but must continue to climb the ladder of greats.  Don Mattingly put up incredible numbers for years but could not sustain.  Not the greatest.   Randy Moss had a short great run.  Not even in conversation for goat.  Give Lebron time. He is moving up fast.  A great. But not the greatest.......yet.   

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 24, 2013, 10:21:01 am

Quote from: fastdrop on June 24, 2013, 09:29:47 am
Lebron could be on any Galaxies all star team....

Better than Jordan as a player ..... most definitely. Better as a Jordan polished promoter of himself .... no.

LBJ probably has better character than Jordan unless we find out he was like 24 when he played High school ball. man he looks old for 28 and always has looked old. lol

I was not talking about character. I was talking being marketable. Jordon was and is smooth. Very TV friendly. Lebron -- not near as much. Lebron could go to any team in the NBA and they would make the play-offs.

Quote from: fastdrop on June 24, 2013, 09:46:08 pm
Lebron could go to any team in the NBA and they would make the play-offs.

Not sure of the context, but that's not something that's just exclusive to LeBron when talking about all-time greats.

Most of the names listed have either hung it up already or need to! Lebron is one the only one who is 28 years old just now peaking at his greatness! No body said Jordan was the greatest player of all time when he one 2 or 3 championships! It was after he one 6 rings and retired! Lebron still has a lot left in the tank and for him to even be considered shows how great he is! All u old folks on here and all u haters on here just need to sit back and watch greatness happen the next couple years! By the time it's all said and done with! Lebron will be the greatest without a doubt! There will be nothing that says other wise! He will have better numbers, just as many rings if not more, more accolades! If u don't believe me? Just watch! ;)

Quote from: vtowneagles on June 28, 2013, 11:18:31 pm
Most of the names listed have either hung it up already or need to! Lebron is one the only one who is 28 years old just now peaking at his greatness! No body said Jordan was the greatest player of all time when he one 2 or 3 championships! It was after he one 6 rings and retired! Lebron still has a lot left in the tank and for him to even be considered shows how great he is! All u old folks on here and all u haters on here just need to sit back and watch greatness happen the next couple years! By the time it's all said and done with! Lebron will be the greatest without a doubt! There will be nothing that says other wise! He will have better numbers, just as many rings if not more, more accolades! If u don't believe me? Just watch! ;)

Who would make up your top 50 or 25? Or even your top 10 all time?

1. Michael Jordan
2) I'm putting lebron here based on the fact that he is 28 and is just now peaking at his greatness! Even the great magic Johnson said after lebron won his second ring that he has a chance to go down as the greatest player to ever play!
3)Magic Johnson
4)Larry Bird
5)Dr. J
6)Kareem Abdul Jabbar
7)Bill russel.. Lets be honest 11 rings is impressive but he played during a time when he was 6" taller than everyone and a league with less teams!
8)Wilt Chamberlin
9)Shaq
10) Karl Malone

Not a bad list. 

Quote from: vtowneagles on June 30, 2013, 05:48:26 pm
1. Michael Jordan
2) I'm putting lebron here based on the fact that he is 28 and is just now peaking at his greatness! Even the great magic Johnson said after lebron won his second ring that he has a chance to go down as the greatest player to ever play!
3)Magic Johnson
4)Larry Bird
5)Dr. J
6)Kareem Abdul Jabbar
7)Bill russel.. Lets be honest 11 rings is impressive but he played during a time when he was 6" taller than everyone and a league with less teams!
8)Wilt Chamberlin
9)Shaq
10) Karl Malone

Wilt played in the same era and was 3 inches taller than Russell.  George Mikan started ten years earlier and played up to Russell's era, and was the same height.  Willis Reed started in the latter part of Russell's era and was an inch shorter. Nate Thurmond was a inch taller and played during the same era.  Elvin Hayes started a year before Russel retired, and was an inch shorter.

Those are just guys from the NBA's 50 Greatest list.  So no, he wasn't 6" taller than everyone.

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Bird
4. Dr. J
5. Wilt
6. Oscar
7. Kareem
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. LeBron

Jordan
Russell
Bird
Oscar R.
Magic
Kareem
Dr. J
Olajuan
Jerry West
Pistol Pete

Quote from: HF on June 22, 2013, 12:44:06 pm

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:28:51 am

Quote from: Valleysports on June 22, 2013, 07:22:30 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation!  ;)

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

This link (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29844/todays-crunch-time-best-vs-air-jordan) says Jordan did throw up some bricks with games on the line....

Not many. 

As good as LBJ looked at times, he looked terrible at others in the final series.  I don't think anyone could ever look back and say MJ ever looked terrible.  In the game six post-game interview, LBJ admitted he played terribly at the end [made me respect him even more].  MJ never had to apologize for looking bad in a game six,,,

because he never let it go to a game seven...

Also ever since lebron entered the league he has been put on a be perfect or u suck scale! He has been expected to win by himself and never make a mistake! Michael Jordan made mistakes! Magic Johnson made mistakes! Bill russel made mistakes! Players make mistakes it just happens! Lebron is just now at the age Jordan started to show how great he really was! So I repeat again! Sit back and watch greatness unfold in front of you!

And on my list the last 2 and Kobe could be switched in no partial order!

Quote from: vtowneagles on July 01, 2013, 11:37:03 am
Also ever since lebron entered the league he has been put on a be perfect or u suck scale! He has been expected to win by himself and never make a mistake! Michael Jordan made mistakes! Magic Johnson made mistakes! Bill russel made mistakes! Players make mistakes it just happens! Lebron is just now at the age Jordan started to show how great he really was! So I repeat again! Sit back and watch greatness unfold in front of you!

Ha,,, I have yet to see anyone on here say that LeBron sucked at any time.  Who would you rather have on your team with the seconds winding down, and the game on the line?  At this time, there is only one answer and it's MJ.  Time will tell if LeBron can achieve greater stature.

Quote from: Valleysports on June 22, 2013, 11:53:45 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:28:51 am

Quote from: Valleysports on June 22, 2013, 07:22:30 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 22, 2013, 07:02:32 am

Quote from: Breitontime on June 22, 2013, 01:51:11 am
And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation!  ;)

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

Actually this is inaccurate!  Go look at the end of the Spurs vs Miami thread, as soon as it was over the first thing said was - well Labron still isn't as good as Jordan.  ::)  Why was that even brought up?  It's the Haters and their fear that he's on track to be as good as Jordan who won't shut up.   :D  Go look at the Labron Thread, I'll bet without looking myself, a Labron Hater jumped in and tried to compare him to Jordan...  Now I'm going to look...  ;D

Haters?  Who could hate LBJ?  Great guy, always smiling, apparent good character, tremendous athlete- not all of which, according to some sources, can be said for MJ.  Just because some of us don't think he's MJ's equal at this time does not mean we be hatin'.

Cuckoo said it best earlier.  Something like,, never seeing MJ turn the ball over twice in crunch time and looking bad while doing it.  You never saw that happen to MJ.

Quote from: vtowneagles on July 01, 2013, 11:37:03 am
Also ever since lebron entered the league he has been put on a be perfect or u suck scale! He has been expected to win by himself and never make a mistake! Michael Jordan made mistakes! Magic Johnson made mistakes! Bill russel made mistakes! Players make mistakes it just happens! Lebron is just now at the age Jordan started to show how great he really was! So I repeat again! Sit back and watch greatness unfold in front of you!

Nobody thinks LeBron sucks.  I think he's in the running for the title of greatest player in the post-Jordan era, and I think most posters here would agree with me.  But that doesn't necessarily make him top 10 all time.  There's a huge gulf between being great and being among the greatest ever.  He's a sure-fire Hall of Famer, but not on the 2-deep if I'm making out an all time roster.

All good points.  I repeat:  Lebron is the greatest athlete to play the game.  I have him top 15 all time and he is just now peaking.  That is extraordinary. But right now I would take a handful over him.   He can still get there. 

I lived during the Jordan era.  He was already thought to be incredible before the title runs.  His 63 in a playoff loss to Boston...   The titles put the finishing touches on.   That is what lebron is trying to do now.  Give it time.  He either will or won't.  Not top five or ten yet but moving on up. 

I think he needs some clutch games to get there and he hasnt done that yet. He should be giving allen part of his salary for bailing him out and making it possible for this title. Allen's shot was clutch

Quote from: cuckoobird on July 01, 2013, 01:41:41 pm
I think he needs some clutch games to get there and he hasnt done that yet. He should be giving allen part of his salary for bailing him out and making it possible for this title. Allen's shot was clutch

Truer words were never spoken.......

We may watch him develop into the greatest of all time, but doubtless he will be known as one of the all-time greats.

Agreed.

Like I said before. If nto for a couple of missed free throws we arent even having this discussion. it would be about the 2 horrible turnovers he had toward the end of game 6. Second chances mean a lot.

So u r saying that lebrons 16 point 4th quarter wasn't clutch? Yea he turned it over and Allen bailed him out! But without lebrons clutch performance in the 4th it wouldn't have even been a shot for Allen to get! What about his 37 point game 7? Or his avg of 33 ppg in all of his game 7? What about game 6 against Boston last year! Or in his Cleveland days when he picked up the whole team and took them to the finals? With no supporting cast! I repeat NO supporting cast! Yea lebron hasn't been clutch a bunch but there has been plenty of times that he has especially in the past 2 years! So let's be done with the non clutch stuff! 

Sometimes I see doubt in LBJ's eyes. I never remember seeing that in Jordan's or Bird's or Magic's. JMO

Hes not clutch yet. I would still want jordan taking the last shot at his age

Well yea because Jordan is the most clutch person ever! He wanted to win at all cost! Lebron had doubt in his eyes before! But I seem a man that was determined to win at all cost "Jordan moment" in game 7!!

Exactly.  Win at all costs with the abilities to make it happen.    An intangible "it" quality possessed by few. 

Lbj doesnt posess that yet

He had it in game 7!

Quote from: vtowneagles on July 01, 2013, 05:03:57 pm
So u r saying that lebrons 16 point 4th quarter wasn't clutch? Yea he turned it over and Allen bailed him out! But without lebrons clutch performance in the 4th it wouldn't have even been a shot for Allen to get! What about his 37 point game 7? Or his avg of 33 ppg in all of his game 7? What about game 6 against Boston last year! Or in his Cleveland days when he picked up the whole team and took them to the finals? With no supporting cast! I repeat NO supporting cast! Yea lebron hasn't been clutch a bunch but there has been plenty of times that he has especially in the past 2 years! So let's be done with the non clutch stuff!

I think what we are saying is he should be like that the entire series. There were 4 games where, while he had good numbers, he was no where to be found with the game on the line. 3 of those were losses and you never saw a Jordan team in the finals get stroked by 30.

I agree he is the best in the game now. Best athlete to play the game. I dont think many have ever had the size and athletic ability he does. He still improves every year. But your star should never disappear during a game. Yes hes had his clutch moments. But thats what he should do even if he misses, Jordan didnt make every clutch shot either.

Quote from: vtowneagles on July 02, 2013, 09:21:55 am
He had it in game 7!

clutch would have been in game six when his team needed it the most. It was a second chance in game 7 and thats not being clutch.

Ur right cuckoo.. He didn't score 16 in the 4th when his team needed him!

He did commit 2 turnovers and throw up a brick but got a second chance to knock it down. Second chances arent clutch. Im not saying he isnt good but i wouldnt give him the ball in the closing seconds with the game on the line. Jordan would get that then bird

Yes but just because he isn't the most clutch player doesn't mean he isn't great! Lebron is betters than Jordan and bird at different thing's too!

Quote from: vtowneagles on July 02, 2013, 12:55:40 pm
Yes but just because he isn't the most clutch player doesn't mean he isn't great! Lebron is betters than Jordan and bird at different thing's too!

No one is saying he isn't great.  He just does not measure up to MJ- yet.  He may in the future.  The fact is LBJ had a couple of bad TOs in game six at the end.  MJ never looked that uncomfortable in a game six or any other that I remember, and he never allowed a game 7.  LeBron's supporting cast is just about equal to MJs, but  MJ never got blown out by 30 in a championship series.  Right now they are not equals.  The balance sheet still weighs heavily in MJs favor.  The next few years will tell if he can equal or eclipse MJ.  I'm betting not.

What can lbj do better than jordan?

Quote from: cuckoobird on July 02, 2013, 09:58:05 am

Quote from: vtowneagles on July 02, 2013, 09:21:55 am
He had it in game 7!

clutch would have been in game six when his team needed it the most. It was a second chance in game 7 and thats not being clutch.

Think back to Game 6 - with about 4 minutes left Miami was down 6 points?  Maybe 2 mins left they're up 4 points.  Y'all can verify the scores and time - I'm not exactly sure.  Point is - there was a 10-0 run - who, what, and how, did that happen?  Miami had Game 6, in hand, and blew it!  Spurs then got a second chance and blew it themselves!

Lebron turned it over and allowed sa to come back. Lol

Nope!  Labron took over and started backing in, dunking, and Miami made 5 dunks / layups in a row.  Why they stopped, what was working, and went back to outside shooting who knows, but when they did the Spurs got back in it, with like 1 min left. 

You're still going to pick me up right?   

Sure if im in stuttgart when you fly down. What day is it?

Probably Aug or Sept, before duck season.  Just don't want to tick you off before then.  ;) 

Butler coach Brad Stevens new head coach of the Boston Celtics. Wow.

I dont hold grudges about things posted on here.

Who else enters the discussion of moving into the elite?  Kobe, Tim Duncan, Lebron, and Wade are high on the list already. Dirk, Nash, Garnett, and such are top 50.  Who is moving close to top 50 now?   

Durrant possibly! But in my mind wade is not a top 25 player!

Durant is definitely the "next big thing".  I wouldn't be surprised to see him surpass LeBron by a significant margin when all is said and done.  Even outside the NBA, he was the leader of the 2010 Team USA team that won the FIBA world title, and set the record for points scored in an Olympic tournament en route to a USA Gold last year.  More points in an Olympic tournament that LeBron or Kobe (from that team), or any of the greats of the past.  That says something.

QuoteMore points in an Olympic tournament that LeBron or Kobe (from that team), or any of the greats of the past.  That says something.

C'mon Lionheart - the Olympics are like an All Star Game.  If someone is shooting a lot, it's because the others are having fun feeding him the ball.  The Greats even take the roll of coming off the bench if they're needed.
 
How far do you see Durant surpassing Jordan, after he surpasses LeBron by a significant margin? 

Way too early to be saying that.  You can't even realistically talk about Durant passing Jordan until he's passed LeBron, and that's not even certain yet.  I wouldn't be surprised to see it, but it's by no means certain.

I was being facetious - Durant ain't being compared to Jordan nor LeBron.

To me Durant is more Gervin-like.  Will have to truly develop many areas of his game to reach top ten type status. 

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 05, 2013, 08:08:41 pm
To me Durant is more Gervin-like.  Will have to truly develop many areas of his game to reach top ten type status. 

Meh...I think this year Durant was better than any version of Gervin.  He was already a better rebounder and this year his passing/playmaking took a step forward.  If he continues to build on that, he'll leave Gervin in his dust.  Not saying Durant will be a top 10 player all-time, because that's going to be nearly impossible unless he wins 3+ rings, but I do think he has the potential to be a top 20 all-time player.

I got to watch him play. If you get the opportunity to watch footage of Gervin do so.   Incredible player.  http://www.nba.com/history/players/gervin_bio.html.

Here are some excerpts:

During his career, Gervin recorded a remarkable streak of scoring double figures in 407 consecutive games. He played in 12 straight All-Star Games, including nine in the NBA, and he averaged at least 21 points in each of those dozen years. In his nine NBA seasons with San Antonio, the Spurs won five division titles. He won an All-Star Game MVP Award and twice placed second in voting for the regular-season MVP Award.


The following season, Gervin (29.6 ppg) repeated as scoring champion and again finished runner-up in the MVP voting, this time behind Moses Malone of the Houston Rockets. In that 1978-79 season, Gervin came closest to playing in the NBA Finals. After besting the Philadelphia 76ers in a seven-game conference semifinal series, the Spurs blew a 3-1 lead over the Washington Bullets in the Eastern Conference Finals.

With Gervin aboard, San Antonio, after moving to the Western Conference, again reached the conference finals in 1982 and 1983, losing both times to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Those Spurs like the Bucks of the Moncrief era couldn't best two titans in a single playoff run. 

Oh I know Gervin was a very good player; and the Gervin comparisons for Durant I think were very apt until this year when Durant really improved his all-around game.  I don't think on all-time ranking list Durant should be ahead of Gervin right now, but I do think the 2013 version of Durant was better than any version of Gervin.

We were probably looking at 3 straight trips to the WCF and very possibly two straight trips to the Finals for Durant and the Thunder if Westbrook doesn't get hurt, and KD is only 24 years old.  Already 4x All-NBA 1st team, 4x All-Star, 3x scoring champ, 3x MVP runner-up to a top 5-10 player all-time, etc.  The accolades are already piling up and he'll only be 25 next year.  And as his defense continues to improve (I think this was the first year you could actually classify Durant as a good defender, instead of a bad or average defender) he'll probably rack up a few All-Defense selections in the near future.  He already started getting votes this year. 

Hope he keeps improving.  I really like Durant.  Potential unlimited!   

Part of the reason there was seemingly no drop-off after they traded Harden (improved win% better offensive numbers in 2013 than in 2012) is because of how much he improved his all-around game.  Of course Westbrook and Ibaka improved, too, so it wasn't all Durant.  It'll be interesting to see how much better he gets since he's already so good; but most players of his caliber don't really start to truly peak until the later 20's...kind of in that 27-30 years old range.

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Malone
6. Barkley
7. Chamberlin
8. West
9 Havlichek
10. Russell

Go get your 10....My 10 will run a train up your nose !!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Hoghead on July 13, 2013, 01:58:06 am
1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Malone
6. Barkley
7. Chamberlin
8. West
9 Havlichek
10. Russell

Go get your 10....My 10 will run a train up your nose !!!!!!!!!

No Duncan? :-[

Give us your top ten Jacketman.

I bet he will lebron in there 3 times

1. Jordan
2. Robertson
3. Magic
4. Jabbar
5. Duncan
6.Chamberlain
7.Lebron
8. Stockton
9.Ewing
10.Kobe

This may be the first top ten without Larry Bird.   Still a decent list. 

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 31, 2013, 03:00:21 pm
This may be the first top ten without Larry Bird.   Still a decent list.

Hard to leave Bird out. He would have been the next man in however.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 05:58:21 pm
You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.


Duncan moves up to 7 on my list. His longevity at this high level of play edges out Shaquille on my list. 


1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 05:58:21 pm
You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 05, 2011, 05:58:21 pm
You got it. And, yes, mine changes slightly from year to year.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6. Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

7. Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

8.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

9.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....giving Tim 5 titles......

10. Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories.

Honorable mention:  Hakeem Olajuwan, Bob Petitt, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, George Mikan, Isaiah Thomas, Karl Malone, John Havlicek, John Stockton, Kevin McHale, Scottie Pippen, Moses Malone, David Robinson, Charles Barkley, Lebron James.

I have plenty more to say about each. The final 15 are in no particular order except Lebron which pains me to put on this list but I recognize that he is probably the greatest athlete to ever play the game even if not the best or near best player as of now.

With reference to Shaq, Kareem, etc. I use terms unstoppable and dominant in a way which I know what I am saying.  For instance, Shaq was unstoppable in that once he got the ball on the low block you had to foul hiim or he would score one on one. He would probablly score with two defenders. He was just so big and strong.

Kareem had an unstoppable shot. It could not be defended. He was dominant on both ends. Hope this makes sense.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Larry Bird
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Tim Duncan
7. Scottie Pippen
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Bill Russell
10. Dirk Nowitzki
Yes my 10 is biased just a wee bit  8)

Quote from: AB™ on July 06, 2013, 06:33:11 pm
Oh I know Gervin was a very good player; and the Gervin comparisons for Durant I think were very apt until this year when Durant really improved his all-around game.  I don't think on all-time ranking list Durant should be ahead of Gervin right now, but I do think the 2013 version of Durant was better than any version of Gervin.

We were probably looking at 3 straight trips to the WCF and very possibly two straight trips to the Finals for Durant and the Thunder if Westbrook doesn't get hurt, and KD is only 24 years old.  Already 4x All-NBA 1st team, 4x All-Star, 3x scoring champ, 3x MVP runner-up to a top 5-10 player all-time, etc.  The accolades are already piling up and he'll only be 25 next year.  And as his defense continues to improve (I think this was the first year you could actually classify Durant as a good defender, instead of a bad or average defender) he'll probably rack up a few All-Defense selections in the near future.  He already started getting votes this year.

And this year he was MVP.  Still needs more (healthy) talent around him to get by the Spurs/Heat though.

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 15, 2014, 11:56:06 pm

Quote from: AB™ on July 06, 2013, 06:33:11 pm
Oh I know Gervin was a very good player; and the Gervin comparisons for Durant I think were very apt until this year when Durant really improved his all-around game.  I don't think on all-time ranking list Durant should be ahead of Gervin right now, but I do think the 2013 version of Durant was better than any version of Gervin.

We were probably looking at 3 straight trips to the WCF and very possibly two straight trips to the Finals for Durant and the Thunder if Westbrook doesn't get hurt, and KD is only 24 years old.  Already 4x All-NBA 1st team, 4x All-Star, 3x scoring champ, 3x MVP runner-up to a top 5-10 player all-time, etc.  The accolades are already piling up and he'll only be 25 next year.  And as his defense continues to improve (I think this was the first year you could actually classify Durant as a good defender, instead of a bad or average defender) he'll probably rack up a few All-Defense selections in the near future.  He already started getting votes this year.

And this year he was MVP.  Still needs more (healthy) talent around him to get by the Spurs/Heat though.

Yeah, although no one was stopping the Spurs this year.  A healthy OKC team was really the only team that probably stood a legit shot (even though the Mavs caught the Spurs napping a bit in round one and took them seven games).  But when Ibaka went down, I knew they were done.  Even after he came back I figured it was too little too late.  Ibaka just completely changes the way the Spurs play the Thunder.  Unfortunately, even after he came back he wasn't ever 100% and Durant and Westbrook were completely worn down by the end of the series -- especially Durant who had to carry an insane load in the regular season with Westbrook missing 36 games.

 

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

4. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Jordan could have matched any feat LeBron can claim but he was loyal to the bulls. He wasn't a team hopper

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 11:08:54 am

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Jordan could have matched any feat LeBron can claim but he was loyal to the bulls. He wasn't a team hopper

Except, you know, that Wizards foray.

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

That helped him move up to #5.  I kept it in mind. 
He led them; didn't carry any but the very first finals.  East was weak this year plus he had two other greats until into playoffs plus former teammates from Miami who know what it takes.  He carried them IN this finals and the burden got heavy.  He is a great one indeed. #5 on my list.

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Lebron had plenty of help in Miami, and even this year he had Love and Irving until they got hurt in the playoffs.  That team wouldn't have made the Finals with just Lebron.

Quote from: DerekOxford on June 17, 2015, 11:44:06 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 11:08:54 am

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Jordan could have matched any feat LeBron can claim but he was loyal to the bulls. He wasn't a team hopper

Except, you know, that Wizards foray.

wasn't that at the end of his career and after coming out of retirement for the second time? plus he owned half the team lol

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 12:14:19 pm

Quote from: DerekOxford on June 17, 2015, 11:44:06 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 11:08:54 am

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Jordan could have matched any feat LeBron can claim but he was loyal to the bulls. He wasn't a team hopper

Except, you know, that Wizards foray.

wasn't that at the end of his career and after coming out of retirement for the second time? plus he owned half the team lol

Yes, but you said he was loyal to the Bulls. If he had been loyal he wouldn't have come out of retirement again and tarnished his legacy.

Quote from: DerekOxford on June 17, 2015, 12:20:42 pm

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 12:14:19 pm

Quote from: DerekOxford on June 17, 2015, 11:44:06 am

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 11:08:54 am

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Jordan could have matched any feat LeBron can claim but he was loyal to the bulls. He wasn't a team hopper

Except, you know, that Wizards foray.

wasn't that at the end of his career and after coming out of retirement for the second time? plus he owned half the team lol

Yes, but you said he was loyal to the Bulls. If he had been loyal he wouldn't have come out of retirement again and tarnished his legacy.

Please try to justify this as the same as LeBron, it will be hillarious

I don't think many players really care about their "legacy".  They just want paychecks and rings.  I doubt Jordan thought he was going to get a ring with the Wizards, he was probably just there for the paycheck.

Similarly, there's been talk for a while that James could opt out of his current deal any day now and get a better one due to the complexities of the CBA.  If he does so, it won't be his legacy on his mind, it'll be his paycheck.  If he cared about legacy he'll be a nice guy and not extort more money from his hometown club.

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 17, 2015, 12:28:03 pm
I don't think many players really care about their "legacy".  They just want paychecks and rings.  I doubt Jordan thought he was going to get a ring with the Wizards, he was probably just there for the paycheck.

Similarly, there's been talk for a while that James could opt out of his current deal any day now and get a better one due to the complexities of the CBA.  If he does so, it won't be his legacy on his mind, it'll be his paycheck.  If he cared about legacy he'll be a nice guy and not extort more money from his hometown club.

I doubt he needed a paycheck. The man still sells more shoes than LeBron.

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 17, 2015, 11:55:58 am

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Lebron had plenty of help in Miami, and even this year he had Love and Irving until they got hurt in the playoffs.  That team wouldn't have made the Finals with just Lebron.

They swept Atlanta with Kyrie playing just two games....Love was out the entire series.  The cavs made it to the finals with just Lebron. The East was very weak this year, but Lebron absolutely carries teams, especially this season's playoffs. I agree, he had plenty of help in Miami. But Lebron is easily the best player/athlete in the game today.  Nobody will ever win the debate that he is the best all time, because he hasn't won the required amount of championships to be considered that, I guess.  Lebron was leading the warriors 2-1 in a series where he was the only person on the team...it's impressive.  I know there are ton of Lebron haters out there, but lets be realistic.

I am.  If Love and Irving aren't on that team all season, they don't end up in the finals.  They contributed plenty during the regular season.  Love was an important part of their first round series against the Celtics.  Irving was a major contributor through the first three series and in game one of the Finals.  By himself, Lebron might have carried that team to the playoffs, but they wouldn't have reached the finals without the other two.

 "Nobody will ever win the debate that he is the best all time, because he hasn't won the required amount of championships to be considered that, I guess.  Lebron was leading the warriors 2-1 in a series where he was the only person on the team...it's impressive.  I know there are ton of Lebron haters out there, but lets be realistic."

Bill Russell won a lot more and he is not #1. 

Was leading and couldn't finish off game one or game 5 where he had his chances.  One of my separators on my list.

Hater?   I have him at #5 all time and he is still playing!  Step back and look at all aspects of the game for all the greats in this top ten and be realistic and you will find that they had areas in which they were better than Lebron.

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 17, 2015, 12:58:24 pm
I am.  If Love and Irving aren't on that team all season, they don't end up in the finals.  They contributed plenty during the regular season.  Love was an important part of their first round series against the Celtics.  Irving was a major contributor through the first three series and in game one of the Finals.  By himself, Lebron might have carried that team to the playoffs, but they wouldn't have reached the finals without the other two.

Major contributor? I don't think you can consider playing two games against Atlanta and maybe scoring around 20 for that series "major".

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 01:56:27 pm
"Nobody will ever win the debate that he is the best all time, because he hasn't won the required amount of championships to be considered that, I guess.  Lebron was leading the warriors 2-1 in a series where he was the only person on the team...it's impressive.  I know there are ton of Lebron haters out there, but lets be realistic."

Bill Russell won a lot more and he is not #1. 

Was leading and couldn't finish off game one or game 5 where he had his chances.  One of my separators on my list.

Hater?   I have him at #5 all time and he is still playing!  Step back and look at all aspects of the game for all the greats in this top ten and be realistic and you will find that they had areas in which they were better than Lebron.

I wasn't referring to you when I made those comments.  I'm just saying when people compare these players with Lebron, they always go back to championships. I know you look at all aspects. I don't agree with your rankings, but you have a basis other than championships that you are going off of.  The game has evolved so much that this is just a debate that won't every be solved.  For instance, Wilt, in his prime, would not be the player today that he once was because of the competition.

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 02:08:46 pm

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 17, 2015, 12:58:24 pm
I am.  If Love and Irving aren't on that team all season, they don't end up in the finals.  They contributed plenty during the regular season.  Love was an important part of their first round series against the Celtics.  Irving was a major contributor through the first three series and in game one of the Finals.  By himself, Lebron might have carried that team to the playoffs, but they wouldn't have reached the finals without the other two.

Major contributor? I don't think you can consider playing two games against Atlanta and maybe scoring around 20 for that series "major".

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 01:56:27 pm
"Nobody will ever win the debate that he is the best all time, because he hasn't won the required amount of championships to be considered that, I guess.  Lebron was leading the warriors 2-1 in a series where he was the only person on the team...it's impressive.  I know there are ton of Lebron haters out there, but lets be realistic."

Bill Russell won a lot more and he is not #1. 

Was leading and couldn't finish off game one or game 5 where he had his chances.  One of my separators on my list.

Hater?   I have him at #5 all time and he is still playing!  Step back and look at all aspects of the game for all the greats in this top ten and be realistic and you will find that they had areas in which they were better than Lebron.

I wasn't referring to you when I made those comments.  I'm just saying when people compare these players with Lebron, they always go back to championships. I know you look at all aspects. I don't agree with your rankings, but you have a basis other than championships that you are going off of.  The game has evolved so much that this is just a debate that won't every be solved.  For instance, Wilt, in his prime, would not be the player today that he once was because of the competition.

I don't think the competition is better, I think it's more watered down with lots of players with great talent but poor basic skills. It's all street ball

Understood.  But I love discussing this topic even if we don't agree on all aspects.

Give me your top 10 all time and why. 

By the way, I think Wilt would have been great in any era.  Can you imagine him with today's training!

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 03:31:25 pm

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 02:08:46 pm

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 17, 2015, 12:58:24 pm
I am.  If Love and Irving aren't on that team all season, they don't end up in the finals.  They contributed plenty during the regular season.  Love was an important part of their first round series against the Celtics.  Irving was a major contributor through the first three series and in game one of the Finals.  By himself, Lebron might have carried that team to the playoffs, but they wouldn't have reached the finals without the other two.

Major contributor? I don't think you can consider playing two games against Atlanta and maybe scoring around 20 for that series "major".

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 01:56:27 pm
"Nobody will ever win the debate that he is the best all time, because he hasn't won the required amount of championships to be considered that, I guess.  Lebron was leading the warriors 2-1 in a series where he was the only person on the team...it's impressive.  I know there are ton of Lebron haters out there, but lets be realistic."

Bill Russell won a lot more and he is not #1. 

Was leading and couldn't finish off game one or game 5 where he had his chances.  One of my separators on my list.

Hater?   I have him at #5 all time and he is still playing!  Step back and look at all aspects of the game for all the greats in this top ten and be realistic and you will find that they had areas in which they were better than Lebron.

I wasn't referring to you when I made those comments.  I'm just saying when people compare these players with Lebron, they always go back to championships. I know you look at all aspects. I don't agree with your rankings, but you have a basis other than championships that you are going off of.  The game has evolved so much that this is just a debate that won't every be solved.  For instance, Wilt, in his prime, would not be the player today that he once was because of the competition.

I don't think the competition is better, I think it's more watered down with lots of players with great talent but poor basic skills. It's all street ball

Agreed.  There are a few superstars who could've played in any era, but the across-the-board depth of talent isn't where is once was.  Just look at the 2012 Olympic team compared to the '92 Dream Team.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
Understood.  But I love discussing this topic even if we don't agree on all aspects.

Give me your top 10 all time and why. 

By the way, I think Wilt would have been great in any era.  Can you imagine him with today's training!

I honestly wouldn't change much of yours.  I would want to move Russel up though.  He averaged 25 rebounds per game in his playoff career! I just don't know who I would move him ahead of.  I think your 3-7 could be ordered any way while making a good argument for them.  I'm not sure how I would rank mine yet.

The training could come into play for Wilt today, but I meant if he just jumped in the league.

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 03:31:25 pm
I don't think the competition is better, I think it's more watered down with lots of players with great talent but poor basic skills. It's all street ball

It has quite a bit of street ball, but the athletes have evolved...we can both agree on that. The athletes that play in the NBA today are superior to the players in the past.  Fundamentals may be slightly down, with the exception of players like Curry.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
Understood.  But I love discussing this topic even if we don't agree on all aspects.

Give me your top 10 all time and why. 

By the way, I think Wilt would have been great in any era.  Can you imagine him with today's training!

I'm not a big basketball fan, and I think that keeps me from being skewed by media hype for one player or another. When I watch today's players, I don't see anyone like magic, Jordan, bird, wilt, Doc, or even the mailman. OK I'm editing and saying curry would be the closest thing

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 03:51:14 pm

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
Understood.  But I love discussing this topic even if we don't agree on all aspects.

Give me your top 10 all time and why. 

By the way, I think Wilt would have been great in any era.  Can you imagine him with today's training!

I'm not a big basketball fan, and I think that keeps me from being skewed by media hype for one player or another. When I watch today's players, I don't see anyone like magic, Jordan, bird, wilt, Doc, or even the mailman. OK I'm editing and saying curry would be the closest thing

Curry is there with Bird. You have to say Kobe is somewhere in there too, right? I think it's hard for people to put Kobe and Lebron high up because they are so unlikable. Curry is likable..everyone loves him. He won the mvp and championship this year, which adds to it.

This is an interesting forum to read though, because everyone's opinions are so diverse.

One thing that I can say, that I've never seen from Lebron, I've never seen him make the shot when his team needs to comeback from a deficit late in the game. He didn't last night, and the last title he won was because someone else made that shot in game six while he was dribbling off his feet and falling all over the place. He is the clumsiest "great" player I have ever seen. Great players make those shots and aren't afraid to take them

1) Michael Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Sky Hook
4) Wilt the Stilt
5) Magic
6) Bill Russell
7) Bird
8) Dr. J
9) Shaq
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
10A) Oscar Robertson
10B) Tim Duncan
10C) Kobe

Good list....and nice 2,000th post. 

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 04:04:38 pm
One thing that I can say, that I've never seen from Lebron, I've never seen him make the shot when his team needs to comeback from a deficit late in the game. He didn't last night, and the last title he won was because someone else made that shot in game six while he was dribbling off his feet and falling all over the place. He is the clumsiest "great" player I have ever seen. Great players make those shots and aren't afraid to take them

You're right - you haven't watched much basketball.  Haha.  LeBron has pulled off some awesome game ending clutch shots.  They dropped that argument 5 yrs ago Cuckoo..

Quote from: Lionheart88 on June 17, 2015, 11:55:58 am

Quote from: MDXPHD on June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 am

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

Keep in mind that Lebron has been to 5 straight NBA finals with two different teams...and carried them all there. He had more help in Miami, and little to no help in Cleveland this season.  LeBron James is the 1st player in NBA Finals history to lead BOTH teams in points, assists & rebounds for entire series. What he did this year was remarkable.

Lebron had plenty of help in Miami, and even this year he had Love and Irving until they got hurt in the playoffs.  That team wouldn't have made the Finals with just Lebron.

That team wouldn't have finished .500 WITHOUT LeBron!  ::)

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 03:51:14 pm

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
Understood.  But I love discussing this topic even if we don't agree on all aspects.

Give me your top 10 all time and why. 

By the way, I think Wilt would have been great in any era.  Can you imagine him with today's training!

I'm not a big basketball fan, and I think that keeps me from being skewed by media hype for one player or another. When I watch today's players, I don't see anyone like magic, Jordan, bird, wilt, Doc, or even the mailman. OK I'm editing and saying curry would be the closest thing

That's cause today's players have muscles and not tooth pick legs.  They're bigger, faster, stronger, and jump higher.  Yes that's a fact of sports evolution.

Quote from: Valleysports on June 17, 2015, 06:54:22 pm

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 17, 2015, 03:51:14 pm

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 03:34:04 pm
Understood.  But I love discussing this topic even if we don't agree on all aspects.

Give me your top 10 all time and why. 

By the way, I think Wilt would have been great in any era.  Can you imagine him with today's training!

I'm not a big basketball fan, and I think that keeps me from being skewed by media hype for one player or another. When I watch today's players, I don't see anyone like magic, Jordan, bird, wilt, Doc, or even the mailman. OK I'm editing and saying curry would be the closest thing

That's cause today's players have muscles and not tooth pick legs.  They're bigger, faster, stronger, and jump higher.  Yes that's a fact of sports evolution.

I don't know about evolution, it's more of a lessening. Who's faster than Jordan? who can jump higher than Jordan? Now they may be bigger and stronger but that doesn't make them a great basketball player

Half the NBA - Jordan could really jump high and run for his time.

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 07:46:30 am
Half the NBA - Jordan could really jump high and run for his time.

you're wrong on this one and it doesn't make them better players

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 18, 2015, 07:51:51 am

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 07:46:30 am
Half the NBA - Jordan could really jump high and run for his time.

you're wrong on this one and it doesn't make them better players

Two players of equal skill - one is bigger, faster, stronger - no brainer.  Athlete's continue to evolve physically for whatever reason, weights, nutrition, facilities, AAU, genetics - basketball is not the exception to the rule, just because y'all want it to be.  Ha ha

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 07:46:30 am
Half the NBA - Jordan could really jump high and run for his time.

You're funny.

Two players of equal skill - one is bigger, faster, stronger - no brainer.  Athlete's continue to evolve physically for whatever reason, weights, nutrition, facilities, AAU, genetics - basketball is not the exception to the rule, just because y'all want it to be.  Ha ha

This is one reason that Lebron is not the goat.  He is bigger and stronger yet doesn't seem to always want to use that advantage. He settles for lesser shots when he undoubtedly could have driven or posted up for a better shot or to force the defenders to foul or even draw double team to get better shots yet he will dribble for 9 seconds to shoot a 25 footer at end of shot clock.   He lacks certain intangibles that many of the others that lack his athleticism possessed. He can fill a stat sheet like no other and still loses.  He will still defer or settle when games are on the line. Look at final minutes of games 1, 4, 5, and 6 of this finals.  His stats are awesome (except fg %) yet he either defers, disappears, or misses with games on the line.  He is an awesome player but not goat. 

On average athletes appear to be stronger and faster. But among elite athletes that is not necessarily the case.

Surely you have seen athletes with same or even lesser athleticism and/or skills defeat athletes with more.  Intangibles play a huge role in outcomes. Drive, IQ, awareness, willingness to put it on the line, grace under pressure, etc. play such important parts in success. 

Lebron is great but I would take MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, or Kobe ahead of him.   

LeBron is the best athlete the NBA has ever seen in my opinion.

Quote from: Hootie on June 18, 2015, 10:14:39 am
LeBron is the best athlete the NBA has ever seen in my opinion.

Isn't the term athlete used for those players recruited by colleges to play football but never see the field on anything but special teams?

Rattler I have to agree with 80% of that last post - he could've won game 1, if he'd driven to the basket instead of settling for that unnecessary fade away 3 point attempt.  However, he didn't shy away from it - just missed!  Can we agree - LeBron is the most critiqued player on the planet?

Anyone remember the endless debates over weather LeBron or Carmelo was the best Rookie, coming into the league?

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 10:35:52 am
Rattler I have to agree with 80% of that last post - he could've won game 1, if he'd driven to the basket instead of settling for that unnecessary fade away 3 point attempt.  However, he didn't shy away from it - just missed!  Can we agree - LeBron is the most critiqued player on the planet?

Yes.  I also believe he is the best player and athlete right now and it's not even close. KD, Westbrook, Curry, Hardin, etc. are tremendous athletes and aren't even close to Lebron.   But very few athletes in all of sports combine elite athleticism, elite skills, elite leadership, and elite drive plus those intangibles of which I speak.   MJ, Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Bill Russell, Wayne Gretzky are in that upper echelon that is so rare.  it is really the only reason that I place Kobe, Bird, and Magic above Lebron. 

Quote from: cuckoobird on June 18, 2015, 10:20:02 am

Quote from: Hootie on June 18, 2015, 10:14:39 am
LeBron is the best athlete the NBA has ever seen in my opinion.

Isn't the term athlete used for those players recruited by colleges to play football but never see the field on anything but special teams?

Why yes it is!!

But Kobe is a Drama Queen Rapist, who can't get along with teammates, ex Shaq. Phil Jackson said he was a disruptive handful.  Is he a leader or just a talented pre-Madonna basketball player, who thinks he's entitled?  I call him done two years ago - he is done right?

Yeah he's been done and yet he still makes the highest NBA salary per year. I'd say he has a heck of an agent.

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 01:00:21 pm
But Kobe is a Drama Queen Rapist, who can't get along with teammates, ex Shaq. Phil Jackson said he was a disruptive handful.  Is he a leader or just a talented pre-Madonna basketball player, who thinks he's entitled?  I call him done two years ago - he is done right?

Leader and probably all the other things you mentioned.

(http://www.sportsmemes.net/pics/5328.jpg)

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 10:37:12 am
Anyone remember the endless debates over weather LeBron or Carmelo was the best Rookie, coming into the league?

I always laugh thinking about the Nuggets dumping Melo and still getting the 3 seed a few years back in the West without him.

Quote from: HF on June 20, 2015, 02:09:55 pm
(http://www.sportsmemes.net/pics/5328.jpg)

+1

It is that time again.   Duncan and Lebron each have a great chance at another title and possibly moving up the list. Wade and Dirk move up the lists.  Who else do you have on your lists?   

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am


1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

Jordan is the best of all time
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
James
Curry
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Kareem
Pete Maravich
Shaq
Dr. J

Good lists.  Curry will have to perform at this level for years to get on my list but he is well on his way. 

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 18, 2015, 11:39:23 am

Quote from: Valleysports on June 18, 2015, 10:35:52 am
Rattler I have to agree with 80% of that last post - he could've won game 1, if he'd driven to the basket instead of settling for that unnecessary fade away 3 point attempt.  However, he didn't shy away from it - just missed!  Can we agree - LeBron is the most critiqued player on the planet?

Yes.  I also believe he is the best player and athlete right now and it's not even close. KD, Westbrook, Curry, Hardin, etc. are tremendous athletes and aren't even close to Lebron.   But very few athletes in all of sports combine elite athleticism, elite skills, elite leadership, and elite drive plus those intangibles of which I speak.   MJ, Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Bill Russell, Wayne Gretzky are in that upper echelon that is so rare.  it is really the only reason that I place Kobe, Bird, and Magic above Lebron. 

Le Bron has been watched by many since he was in HS. They labeled him the 2nd coming before he even graduated high school. He has been scrutinized for every play he does. Withtechnology and social media craze now days its unreal. If Jordan would have played in the same era would they have treated him the same way?

Jordan had his detractors early on.  But breaking through and winning 6 titles ended it.  He poured in 63 on a great Celtics team in playoff loss during those early years to end a lot of the hate. He hit last second game-winning shots in playoffs even before the titles.  I was around when the masses still had Bird, Magic, Dr. J, Kareem, and others ahead of Jordan as an all-time great.  He just kept proving himself.   Taking the beatings from the Detroit teams and still performing won over a lot of haters as well. 

I actually think MJ would have embraced as much coverage as possible.   It didn't happen until freshman year at NC but he was under microscope from then on.   Hit game-winner in NCAA championship!   

I just watched Kareem:  Minority of One.   Media scrutiny from 8th grade on.  But when I hear Jerry West, Larry Bird, Magic, Dr. J, Bill Walton, John Wooden, and such describe Kareem as the greatest and completely unstoppable I go back to thinking he may be the greatest.  But he even said it:  someone had to get him the ball. Even so he constantly scored against quadruple teaming and against defenses completely designed to stop him.   Just wow.   

Where would Bill Walton and Pippen be on top 25 list

Pippen I would have in the top 15. Walton I'm not sure on. In his prime, healthy, he's one of the greats. I think I could find a spot in my to 25 for him

Quote from: Legend on December 03, 2015, 06:07:49 am
Where would Bill Walton and Pippen be on top 25 list

Pippen I have at 12. Walton would be in the low 20s.

Pippin 26; Walton 34.

My #5 bows out with 60.

Looks like my #7 is close to bowing out.  Looked old in that series vs OKC.

I don't think anyone would blame him if he leaves. He's had a great career and is a champion in every sense of the word

Agreed.....about everything you said about him.

My Top Ten

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Dr. J
8. James
9. Jerry West
10. Dirk

Quote from: Legend on November 25, 2015, 08:40:58 am
Jordan is the best of all time
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
James
Curry
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan

Quote from: BigMan15 on May 25, 2016, 11:35:57 am
My Top Ten

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Dr. J
8. James
9. Jerry West
10. Dirk

Quote from: Longfellow on November 25, 2015, 09:31:42 am
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Kareem
Pete Maravich
Shaq
Dr. J

where is kobe?

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 25, 2016, 02:46:31 pm
where is kobe?

Third on this list:  http://espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders

Quote from: bleudog on May 25, 2016, 03:13:27 pm
Third on this list:  http://espn.go.com/nba/history/leaders

I don't understand how he doesn't make people's top ten.

I was just being biased. I don't like Kobe. I'll redo my list. Less bias this time (maybe). I'll also do a top 5 positional list

Point Guard
1. Magic
2. Jerry West
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Gary Payton
5. Isiah Thomas

Shooting Guard
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Pete Maravich

Small Forward
1. Bird
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Dr. J
5. Lebron

Power Forward
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Mchale
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Elvin Hayes

Center
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. David Robinson

All-time
1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Kobe
8. Russell
9. Jerry West
10. Shaq

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 25, 2016, 06:48:56 pm
I don't understand how he doesn't make people's top ten.

He made mine:

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am
 


1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5. Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

6.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; but....some chinks are in the armor. Disappeared late in big games early in career. Defers or settles when he can just force his way to a better possession. But he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. If he wins one more he moves up in the rare air with Bird and Magic in my opinion.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

Quote from: Longfellow on May 25, 2016, 07:06:46 pm
I was just being biased. I don't like Kobe. I'll redo my list. Less bias this time (maybe). I'll also do a top 5 positional list

Point Guard
1. Magic
2. Jerry West
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Gary Payton
5. Isiah Thomas

Shooting Guard
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Pete Maravich

Small Forward
1. Bird
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Dr. J
5. Lebron

Power Forward
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Mchale
3. Karl Malone
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Elvin Hayes

Center
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. David Robinson

All-time
1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Kobe
8. Russell
9. Jerry West
10. Shaq

No one way is Dwayne Wade a better SG than Pistol Pete.  Maravich is #3 at worst.  I might put him above Kobe.

I think it goes beyond the game of basketball as to why he is not on a lot of the top 10 list. Jmo

Quote from: mtindian42 on May 26, 2016, 06:15:43 am
I think it goes beyond the game of basketball as to why he is not on a lot of the top 10 list. Jmo

Maybe, but I don't think beyond the game of basketball should change the rankings of how you play the sport lol.

I put Wade ahead of Maravich based on his defensive ability. Prior to his knees really slowing him down, Wade was arguably the best two-way shooting guard in the league. Maravich wasn't a great defender in the NBA. If this was only a question of offense, Maravich is second in my opinion. If he had the benefit of a three point line, he would've been one of the best three point shooters ever. Wade has been able to be a premier scorer without ever having a reliable jump shot.

You have to take notice of what lebron is doing. He is about to play in his 6th straight finals! 🏀🏀🏀🏀🏀🏀

Jordan is well deserving of the top spot. Lebron is a better all around player then Jordan. He dose more stat wise then Jordan did.

He has done more with less then any guy in nba history.

Clutch: Jordan
Ast: lebron
Reb: lebron
Def: Jordan
Guard multiple positions: lebron
Court vision: lebron
Do more with less: lebron
Rings : Jordan

Rings will win out the debate I get that. But ask yourself this how many nba rings do I have? If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

The ones who criticizes the most have never did what they are criticizing others for. -Allen russell-

If you base it off rings alone that would mean Robert horry is better then MJ (7) we all know that's not the case...but the evidence says 7 is greater then 6.

Just as if you base this off talent alone the evidence says lebron is better.

That's my case for James  vs Jordan

Any cross examiners?

Look at the competition.  Who in the East is going to beat James?  If he were playing in the West, he wouldn't have been to 6 straight.  No way.  The same applies to Jordan comparisons.  The top talent in the league is probably about as good as it ever was, but the depth isn't what it used to be.  Jordan had a lot more competition for those rings.

Then there's the rule changes.  Comparing a guy from the 80s-90s to one from the 00s-10s is kind of like comparing lemons and limes.  Sure, there's a lot of similarities, but there's some important differences too.  How would Lebron have played in that era?  Would the physicality of guys like Barkley have taken a toll on him?  What about Jordan?  In the modern game, would he be even more dominant?

I agree. The hand check rule and an overall drop in physicality do help Lebron to a certain extent. Still a beast though

You make good points. We both know you can't flip flop eras not only is it impossible. It still would not prove who's better.

For instance let's give Carl Malone lebron James to play with. Can you say for certain Jordan wins that series?

Now let's give who ever plays Cleveland in the finals MJ
Can you say for certain lebron wins the series?

I would say James and Malone take the titles to much for that bulls team.

Just as I would say the team that has Jordan will take the title from lebron. To much for the cavs.

If you're great you can play in any era and be successful.

The deciding factor is heart. Both have it. Now you look at the talent. Both have it. Lebron has just a little bit more.

Quote from: mtindian42 on May 28, 2016, 08:10:38 am
You make good points. We both know you can't flip flop eras not only is it impossible. It still would not prove who's better.

For instance let's give Carl Malone lebron James to play with. Can you say for certain Jordan wins that series?

Now let's give who ever plays Cleveland in the finals MJ
Can you say for certain lebron wins the series?

I would say James and Malone take the titles to much for that bulls team.

Just as I would say the team that has Jordan will take the title from lebron. To much for the cavs.

If you're great you can play in any era and be successful.

The deciding factor is heart. Both have it. Now you look at the talent. Both have it. Lebron has just a little bit more.

I think whoever wins the West (more likely OKC) is going to take the title already.  Give them the best player ever and Lebron may not win a game.

James is bigger and stronger than Jordan, but I don't think he's more talented.

Quote from: mtindian42 on May 28, 2016, 07:08:42 am
Jordan is well deserving of the top spot. Lebron is a better all around player then Jordan. He dose more stat wise then Jordan did.

Bigger and stronger =/= better.  LeBron doesn't have Jordan's killer instinct.  He never will.  He also wouldn't have been able to stay healthy playing in Jordan's era.  The Knicks and Pistons would have destroyed him.  On the other hand, Jordan would average 45 in today's NBA.

QuoteHe has done more with less then any guy in nba history.

Wade and Bosh are probably going to be in the HOF.  Wade for sure will.  James has won what, 2 championships?  Ray Allen bailed out the Heat against the Spurs after LeBron disappeared one year.

QuoteClutch: Jordan
Ast: LeBron Eh, I'm not sure about this one
Reb: lebron
Def: Jordan
Guard multiple positions: lebron
Court vision: lebron Or this one
Do more with less: lebron
Rings : Jordan
Flopping Ability Lebron
Mental Toughness Jordan

Fixed that.

Also, I like Pat Riley's take on Jordan/Bird.  When asked who he'd want to take a shot to win a game, the answer was Jordan.  When asked who he'd want to take a shot to save his life, the answer was Bird.

"Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to play the game. But I may go so far as to say Lebron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved," Pippen said.

Enough said... I rest my case...

.

Quote from: mtindian42 on June 01, 2016, 04:22:58 pm

"Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to play the game. But I may go so far as to say Lebron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved," Pippen said.

Enough said... I rest my case...

I could find hundreds of quotes from contemporaries that say otherwise. All I need as justification is the fact that LeBron sat out a half with cramps while Jordan scored 38 with the flu. Also 6 for 6 in the Finals, with 6 Finals MVP awards to go with them.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is a good ballplayer, but he's on the fringe of top-5 discussion. Definitely not the greatest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPn1J07F10E

Quote from: DerekOxford on June 02, 2016, 03:59:47 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPn1J07F10E

A couple points are valid - the marketing was and is unparalleled. However, he contradicts himself more than a couple times. Also, while Jordan didn't score the most career points, or have the most rings, etc., he is near the top in all those categories, whereas others are at or near the top of one or two.

Let me ask you - who do you think is the greatest?

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on June 02, 2016, 10:51:27 pm
A couple points are valid - the marketing was and is unparalleled. However, he contradicts himself more than a couple times. Also, while Jordan didn't score the most career points, or have the most rings, etc., he is near the top in all those categories, whereas others are at or near the top of one or two.

Let me ask you - who do you think is the greatest?

I didn't post that to say MJ isn't, but it's food for thought. You could easily make a case for Wilt, Kareem, Magic or even Big O.

Lebron has a chance to move into top 4 with one more win.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2016, 12:12:47 pm
Lebron has a chance to move into top 4 with one more win.

Agreed. It will be one of, if not the greatest accomplishment, by a player, in Finals history.

I have never been a fan of Lebron, but he has been outstanding the past few games with back against the wall. Three titles plus all the MVPs and his stats are great.  Coming back to win from down 3- would be absolutely historical.  Here is his opportunity to win over old-timers like me.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2015, 09:26:53 am
 


1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5..  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 17, 2016, 04:24:21 pm
I have never been a fan of Lebron, but he has been outstanding the past few games with back against the wall. Three titles plus all the MVPs and his stats are great.  Coming back to win from down 3- would be absolutely historical.  Here is his opportunity to win over old-timers like me.

Just saw replay of LaBron's highlight block, followed by Kyrie's 3 point shot to win the Finals.  Hard to believe that really happened.

I was looking back at this thread and it made me wonder, do Lebron's actions as of late and poor treatment of teammates diminish your opinion of him and maybe even move him down on your all-time lists? I have just lost all respect for him and can't stand the way he plays. 6'8 250 and he gets knocked down by a slight breeze

Quote from: Longfellow on February 16, 2017, 12:37:06 pm
I was looking back at this thread and it made me wonder, do Lebron's actions as of late and poor treatment of teammates diminish your opinion of him and maybe even move him down on your all-time lists? I have just lost all respect for him and can't stand the way he plays. 6'8 250 and he gets knocked down by a slight breeze

What actions as of late are you referring to? In the last week, he's shooting 70 percent from the field.

And he's not the only person that flops in the NBA these days. That's the way the game is called...he gets the calls 90 percent of the time. He just uses the way the game has changed to his advantage.

I'm referring to the way in which he talks about his teammates and criticizes everything the organization does that he doesn't sign off on. If I was a player in Cleveland and heard James talking about he needs more help and they don't have enough to win a title, I'm not sure that's a guy I want to play with. He's a great player, but I don't like him anymore

Quote from: Longfellow on February 16, 2017, 01:08:59 pm
I'm referring to the way in which he talks about his teammates and criticizes everything the organization does that he doesn't sign off on. If I was a player in Cleveland and heard James talking about he needs more help and they don't have enough to win a title, I'm not sure that's a guy I want to play with. He's a great player, but I don't like him anymore

But they listened, and he won a title...Do you really think players like Jordan didn't make comments about the organizations? I mean, I've read a story where Jordan punched Kerr in the face when Kerr disagreed with something Jordan said in practice...His HoF speech was terribly arrogant and bashed pretty much everyone in his life. So should he fall down to ten or so?

He prolly feels like me. I respect Lebron but dont like him! But without a doubt top 2 or 3 player ever!

Quote from: MDXPHD on February 16, 2017, 01:20:39 pm
But they listened, and he won a title...Do you really think players like Jordan didn't make comments about the organizations? I mean, I've read a story where Jordan punched Kerr in the face when Kerr disagreed with something Jordan said in practice...His HoF speech was terribly arrogant and bashed pretty much everyone in his life. So should he fall down to ten or so?

Read a story, perhaps, heard him trashing a teammate on sportscenter? ELLLLLLLLLLL NO! if you can't see the difference, you're part of what's wrong with the world today. I know if I'm down 2 with 10 seconds to go who I would rather had the ball and he would want it to. He never needed bailed out by someone else on the team. I know of at least 10 better than LeBron in that situation.

Quote from: cuckoobird on February 16, 2017, 01:55:12 pm
Read a story, perhaps, heard him trashing a teammate on sportscenter? ELLLLLLLLLLL NO! if you can't see the difference, you're part of what's wrong with the world today. I know if I'm down 2 with 10 seconds to go who I would rather had the ball and he would want it to. He never needed bailed out by someone else on the team. I know of at least 10 better than LeBron in that situation.

Oh right...there is a difference between it being printed instead of it being on tv. And the media has nothing to do with hatred of specific athletes these days. Bash Lebron all you want, but you are a typical MJ fan. Won't ever admit Lebron is in the top. You can hate the guy, but lets be honest. What he has done in the modern NBA era is ridiculous.

You can't even see the difference, but that's how most of the world is today and why there's a problem. You don't trash CURRENT teammates in the media. Nothing wrong with getting in their grill one on one or in the locker room but you don't do it in the media. Perhaps that's why everyone is hating on him, because he's a premadona and the current game is a joke. There is absolutely no defense played. If lebron had to play against the 1990 pistons, he wouldn't even be able to finish the series. He cries like a baby now if someone touches his arm. Rodman would have put him in the hospital, Thomas would have curb stomped him and Lambeir would have sent him to an untimely demise.

I think the disconnect in this current discussion is that on one hand, Jordan demanded excellence from his teammates and confronted them face to face, whereas Lebron is taking a public approach to calling out his teammates by going to team management saying he needs a better supporting cast.

I don't agree with the latter approach. 

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on February 16, 2017, 03:27:02 pm
I think the disconnect in this current discussion is that on one hand, Jordan demanded excellence from his teammates and confronted them face to face, whereas Lebron is taking a public approach to calling out his teammates by going to team management saying he needs a better supporting cast.

I don't agree with the latter approach.

+1

I hate saying this as basketball is my favorite sport, but the NBA is becoming unwatchable. There are literally 2 teams above everyone else cause people like Kevin Durant run from competition to a team who didn't need him to win anyway. That being said look out for Boston moving forward. They can beat Cleveland potentially and they have the Brooklyn Nets draft picks the next couple years which will be top 3 draft picks on an already top tier team. Look out for the Celtics moving forward to overtake the Cavaliers.

Google "500 best NBA players" and look at the list from basketball reference. It's pretty interesting and a little bit infuriating. I like a lot of it, but Pete Maravich at #60? Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, and Vince Carter 97-99? Stephon Marbury at #197 and Marcus Camby at #208 I didn't like either. It's worth a look though

Quote from: Longfellow on March 21, 2017, 06:55:46 pm
Google "500 best NBA players" and look at the list from basketball reference. It's pretty interesting and a little bit infuriating. I like a lot of it, but Pete Maravich at #60? Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, and Vince Carter 97-99? Stephon Marbury at #197 and Marcus Camby at #208 I didn't like either. It's worth a look though

Those are interesting names.... Grant Hill and Vince Carter fall into the "what could have been' category. Vince Carter was on a crazy trajectory before he had all those knee problems and would have been a yearly All-Star if he could have maintained that freak level explosive ability. He tinkered his game and hung around way longer than I thought he would. Grant Hill had the all around game and really could have been special if not for the foot and ankle problems.

Hill would probably be about 60 spots higher if he would've stayed healthy. He turned into the ultimate glue guy when he was in Phoenix at the end of his career. And he won the league sportsmanship award 3 times

I think Hill had a higher ceiling than most.  I thought he had potential for top 20. So sad, but we will never know. 

Quote from: Longfellow on March 21, 2017, 06:55:46 pm
Google "500 best NBA players" and look at the list from basketball reference. It's pretty interesting and a little bit infuriating. I like a lot of it, but Pete Maravich at #60? Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, and Vince Carter 97-99? Stephon Marbury at #197 and Marcus Camby at #208 I didn't like either. It's worth a look though

Pretty sure that "list" is based on some weird fan voting system.  If that's not it, I know there's something really dumb/weird that influences it, and I'm pretty sure it's fan related, so those rankings shouldn't be taken seriously.

Quote from: AB™ on April 22, 2017, 08:48:39 pm
Pretty sure that "list" is based on some weird fan voting system.  If that's not it, I know there's something really dumb/weird that influences it, and I'm pretty sure it's fan related, so those rankings shouldn't be taken seriously.

I looked for a while and finally found who put it together. It was just two guys who work for the parent company that owns SLAM Magazine. Just looking at the rankings it was evident they weren't very competent, but I still like the idea. Wish more publications would do stuff like this. It's only ever top 10's and 25's

LeBron quietly running through the East again.

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 08, 2017, 07:20:57 am
LeBron quietly running through the East again.

Everyone knew the East was trash to begin with. Lebron won't see a legit team until the finals...where they will probably lose

Not a Lebron fan but think he is incredible. He may will them to another title.  West is super tough.  Even Houston is no easy out.

Quote from: Redwolves8526 on May 08, 2017, 09:15:20 am
Everyone knew the East was trash to begin with. Lebron won't see a legit team until the finals...where they will probably lose

I'm sure you said the same thing last year. Or the last 5 years in a row since he's been in the finals each year. You may get it right occasionally, but you've been wrong a few times too.

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 08, 2017, 06:24:10 pm
I'm sure you said the same thing last year. Or the last 5 years in a row since he's been in the finals each year. You may get it right occasionally, but you've been wrong a few times too.

Ehh, I'm not a LeBron hater. I thought they might win against OKC and Dallas (when he was at Miami) but thought they would lose last year, I will admit. I just don't see how anyone is going to matchup with Golden State in a 7 game series, especially after they added KD.

Also, you can't say the East isnt weak. Name one team that could be any higher than a 4 seed in the West other than Cleveland.

Name one west team that could be number 1 in the east, other than Golden State.  Golden breezed through the west last year, then got beat in 7, by Labron in the Finals. Golden state has breezed through the west again this year, cause there is a huge gap between them and everyone else in the west. Does this mean the west is so much stronger OR Golden State is?  LOL Last years Finals were historic - so Golden State went out and bought Durant. Three top dogs - okay - but 4, 5, if they were to stumble this year, would they buy another All Star?  I know it's business and all, but winning it like this is nothing to really be proud about....

Quote from: Valleysports on May 12, 2017, 11:56:12 am
Name one west team that could be number 1 in the east, other than Golden State.  Golden breezed through the west last year, then got beat in 7, by Labron in the Finals. Golden state has breezed through the west again this year, cause there is a huge gap between them and everyone else in the west. Does this mean the west is so much stronger OR Golden State is?  LOL Last years Finals were historic - so Golden State went out and bought Durant. Three top dogs - okay - but 4, 5, if they were to stumble this year, would they buy another All Star?  I know it's business and all, but winning it like this is nothing to really be proud about....

+1 ..... THE TRUTH HAS BEEN SPOKEN!

I see what you're saying, but they didn't really go out and say "we've got to get Durant." I mean, what team wouldn't want KD? Like all teams that are looking to add pieces, they went out and pitched to him. He apparently liked what he heard and he signed. There's no real shame in that. They lost about 27 points and 15 rebounds per game from the losses of Barnes, Bogut, Ezeli, Speights and Barbosa. No one really thought Durant was going to sign with Golden State, though. They would have still been the favorites to come out of the West without KD because of what they already had, but I'm sure they would have added another forward with scoring ability. With that said, they've still got to go out there and get it done.

Lebron hit another milestone. 

Quote from: Valleysports on May 12, 2017, 11:56:12 am
Name one west team that could be number 1 in the east, other than Golden State.  Golden breezed through the west last year, then got beat in 7, by Labron in the Finals. Golden state has breezed through the west again this year, cause there is a huge gap between them and everyone else in the west. Does this mean the west is so much stronger OR Golden State is?  LOL Last years Finals were historic - so Golden State went out and bought Durant. Three top dogs - okay - but 4, 5, if they were to stumble this year, would they buy another All Star?  I know it's business and all, but winning it like this is nothing to really be proud about....

San Antonio and Houston. Maybe even Utah. All three of those teams were better than Boston in my opinion, and especially the rest of the East (Save Cleveland)

Now, do I believe that those teams were better than the Cavs? Probably not in a playoff series, although it would be a good matchup to see a healthy San Antonio vs the Cavs. But, SA, LA, GS, and Utah all had as good or better records than Cleveland. If roles were switched for Cleveland, they definitely couldn't be lackadaisical during the regular season like they can be in the East.

Sounds like the west is watered down.

Everyone knew it would be Cavs vs Warriers, before the season started.  Golden State said early on that they weren't going for a 73 win season, like last year. Both teams paced through, only concerned with the playoffs.  Here's the Bottom Line: Cavalier's Coach Sux!  What's his role with this team?  How about a game plan with some plays and ball movement, instead of pick n roll right, pick n roll left. 

This is the reason I don't watch much NBA. There was no challenge to either of these teams to make the finals. Cavs were mailing it in against Boston. SA is the only team that had a shot in the West against GS. But they are old and their best player got hurt and it was over.

Last year the Cavs made Green go stupid and Curry wasn't 100% evening out the series. Cavs should get a game at home but if this turns and goes 7 the NBA has an issue. This isn't a single elimination tourney and GS is the better all around team.

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 26, 2017, 02:15:21 pm
Sounds like the west is watered down.

the entire NBA is except for two teams.

This is Lebron's legacy.  I truly believe he is the greatest athlete to ever play the game.   His stat lines are unparalleled.  But with a few exceptions he is not a cutthroat killer instinct finisher.   Missed layup in crunch time then inexplicably allows Durant to step into an open three to give Warriors the lead.   Still, give me Lebron for three quarters then any number of greats (Bird, MJ especially) to win games and titles.   He is top 5 all-time but has chinks in the armor just like I have described for years.  Totally disappeared in crunch time tonight with a win(for which he was largely responsible) so close at hand.

That's absolutely correct. Best athlete to play but just not a killer.

I have always looked at it this way, if Lebron Swapped size/stature with MJ, would he still be a super star or in this conversation? Probably not.

Maybe; I have let it be known that I am not a Lebron fan but his skills have won me over to some degree. For the life of me I cannot understand how he can completely dominate for so much of a game then disappear late.  I think his athleticism and skill even at MJ's size would allow him to be incredible (maybe not quite as much as at his 6'8" 268 lbs physique) but his mentality would be the same. Vince Carter and crew showed video and pointed out times late in the game where he "should" have taken over.  He had an incredible driving lane but drove left into the defense and kicked out to Korver.  He actually turned down an opportunity to drive a dagger into their hearts if he drives and scores.

Maybe it is my dislike that makes it seem so apparent to me but I just think he could have won that game last night like so many times before in his career.  He is unstoppable but allows himself to not take over at the end of big games (last year being an exception).   Look at the other side:  KD took the downtown three to pull them close then hits the three in transition to take the lead.  No hesitation, just go for the throat.  That is what would put Lebron over the top in my opinion and he just cannot quite do it.  Killer mentality. Few have it.  That is why in my list I have MJ, Kareem, Magic, and Bird above Lebron.  Lebron is better athlete and deserves lots of his awards and accolades but is just not a killer.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5..  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

I never have agreed with Tim Duncan in the top 10. I think there is a great argument to be made for both KG and Kevin McHale as the best power forward of all time. Duncan was a stone cold player. Some of my first memories of basketball came from watching the Spurs. But I just think Garnett was a better all around player and it's hard for me to argue against McHale. Duncan top 25 - no doubt. Top 10 - questionable

McHale's low post moves were incredible, as good as I have ever seen; Garnett's intensity was what I want out of every player. I just like Duncan's all-around game, fundamentals, and winning, winning, and winning more for sooooooo long and surrounded by different teammates and playing different styles under Pop.  Cannot go wrong with any that you mentioned. Truly greatest power forwards ever along with Pettit, Barkley, and Malone in my opinion.  I was a Laker fan and the 80s Celtics were a thorn in the side. Never found a good way to defend McHale.  He was just so good.  Poor Garnett toiled in Minnesota so long that his wins and titles just don't match up well. I'd still take him on my all-time team any day.  But Duncan goes in my top 10 according to my way of rating/ranking.

Okay. Lebron has an opportunity to move up into #3 all-time by himself should the Cavs come back and win this series which would again make history.  As I said in another thread, GS had better chop this head off quickly or it could happen. But as much as I would hate to admit it, with a comeback from 0-3 added to his already stellar career, I would have to move Lebron up the ladder leaving only MJ and Kareem in front of him.  As it is, he is already poised to join Magic and Bird at #3 soon.

The last two games.........  Both teams' offensive prowess was off the charts. Physical play.    Durant got his title.   I truly enjoyed it.

KD now moves way up my overall list with that playoff run and his performances.  Even last night, when the Cavs kept pushing to within 5 or so, he continually hit big shots and made hustle plays to hold them off.  There was a 4-minute stretch where Lebron showed what he is capable of. ...

I'm no NBA fan by any means. But I love the finals and my San Antonio Spurs. But when Durant and Lebron immediately found each other after the buzzer sounded....that shows the respect they have for one another. And also, Lebron was genuinely proud of Durant for winning a title.

KD joining the Warriors to win the NBA finals is like him joining team USA to beat Spain..... nothing to see here.

Quote from: beach bum on June 13, 2017, 08:19:11 pm
KD joining the Warriors to win the NBA finals is like him joining team USA to beat Spain..... nothing to see here.

Kind of like James joining DWade and Bosh in Miami.  I agree, in a way it is cheapened, but to his credit, Durant played some of the best basketball of his career over the course of the finals.

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on June 14, 2017, 02:58:08 pm
Kind of like James joining DWade and Bosh in Miami.  I agree, in a way it is cheapened, but to his credit, Durant played some of the best basketball of his career over the course of the finals.

im not sure you can compare LBJ situation to GSW. Yeah Miami was loaded but that Miami team comes nowhere near the finals without LBJ.

GSW was going to go to the finals with or without Durant. That is a special team that is absolutely lethal from long range! And they can cause havoc on D as well... add another sniper to that team like Durant and they become very scary... they might win the title 3 or 4 times together! There very well coached as well...if they can all stay together this is for sure going to be a dynasty...

Quote from: mtindian42 on June 15, 2017, 03:21:56 pm
im not sure you can compare LBJ situation to GSW. Yeah Miami was loaded but that Miami team comes nowhere near the finals without LBJ.

GSW was going to go to the finals with or without Durant. That is a special team that is absolutely lethal from long range! And they can cause havoc on D as well... add another sniper to that team like Durant and they become very scary... they might win the title 3 or 4 times together! There very well coached as well...if they can all stay together this is for sure going to be a dynasty...

Wade won a title at Miami without James.

I'm not sure how well-coached GS is.  Kerr was out a good part of the season with complications from his back surgery.  They just have more talent than anyone else in the league right now.

I believe they are well coached. Kerr and assistants are quality.  It is what Jerry West does.  He builds teams. Talented players and talented coaches.

But I agree with Durant joining GS is similar to Lebron to Miami.   Garnett, Wilt, Shaq, Moses Malone, etc.  are all similar.

I've got Durant in my top 30 ever and Curry top 40.  Both are young. With two all time greats and an incredible three-year run, where do you have Curry, Durant, and the Warriors?   

Personally, I've got it:
1. 80s Lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Cooper, Scott, Rambis/Green, Silk, Nixon, McAdoo, And company.
2. 80s Celtics with Bird, McHale, DJ, Chief, Ainge, Carr, Walton, Maxwell, and host.
3. 90s Bulls MJ, Pippen, Worm, Paxson, Kerr, Grant,...
4. 2000s Lakers Shaq, Kobe, Fisher, Horry, ...
5. 50s/60s Celtics Russell, Heinsohn, Sharmon, Cousy...
6. Spurs since 99 Robinson, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili...
7. 50s Lakers Mikan....
8. Warriors Curry, Durant....
9. 80s Sixers Dr. J, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones....
10. Pistons Thomas, Dumars......

If Durant and Curry win next year they could move up a spot.  Win two more, they could move up to top 5.  Pretty elite company.   

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5..  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. Wade
17. West
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. David Robinson
21. Karl Malone
22. Havlicek
23. Curry
24. Dirk
25. Bob Pettit /Mikan
Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale are spectacular honorable mentions.

Lebron, Curry, and Durant have great opportunity to move up in next few years with the teams they have assembled.  My list is fluid and changes from time to time.  I have read so many articles about all-time greats and each has their rationale for their lists. I have mine as well. For now, my list is above. Let's see yours.

Watched 30 for 30 "Best of Enemies" late last night.  Stirred up some great memories and reminded me just how great (and physical) those Lakers, Celtics, and Sixers teams were. 

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 26, 2017, 09:25:22 am
Watched 30 for 30 "Best of Enemies" late last night.  Stirred up some great memories and reminded me just how great (and physical) those Lakers, Celtics, and Sixers teams were. 

Those Bird and Magic Converses were legit.

Loved my Cons back in the day.

Seriously, you think LaBron to Miami, was the same as Durant to Golden State (a team that was going to win the title anyway)? That just stupid!  If Durant left GS today, do ya think GS could keep it together without him?  Miami when LaBron left?

C'mon Rattler, LaBron putting together 3 players (Wade was really baggage with his knees) isn't anything like Golden State, who LaBron robbed of the title last year.     

I mean, the results of the last 2 years do speak for themselves.  Golden State without Durant = no title.  Golden State with Durant = title.  Again, Wade did win a title without James.  Also, Ray Allen was the reason Miami won the title over San Antonia a few years ago.

Quote from: Valleysports on July 05, 2017, 01:16:42 pm
Seriously, you think LaBron to Miami, was the same as Durant to Golden State (a team that was going to win the title anyway)? That just stupid!  If Durant left GS today, do ya think GS could keep it together without him?  Miami when LaBron left?

C'mon Rattler, LaBron putting together 3 players (Wade was really baggage with his knees) isn't anything like Golden State, who LaBron robbed of the title last year.     

Okay; I'll bite.             Chief already put up the main idea of my discourse.
About Wade being baggage:    25.5 pts per game; played 76 regular season games; 50% FG percentage.  That is some kind of baggage.
Adding Lebron (similar to KD) to a team with Wade (similar to Curry), Bosh (similar to Green), and Allen (similar to Thompson) is very comparable. I think Cleveland stood a good chance of beating GS had KD not been there. Very similar to the 76ers adding Moses Malone to Dr. J, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney and company, Lakers adding Wilt to Jerry West, Elgin Baylor*, and Gail Goodrich, or the Celtics adding Bill Walton to Bird, McHale, DJ, and company..... Adding a star to other stars is nothing new. GMs do what it takes to have a chance to win.   

Miami won the title with wade,morning,walker and Shaq. Wade did not do it by himself! And oh yeah Haslem. and you add Pat Riley as the coach lol. That has success written all over it.

LBJ was the reason Miami won those titles. Ray Allen hit a clutch shot to help aid the win over SA. Take LBJ off that team and SA sweeps Miami that year. Ray Allens moment only happened because he had LBJ to even get him to that opportunity. Therefore no LBJ no ray Allen moment.

GS was going to win it all with are without Durant. Miami dose not come close to a title without James.

Agreed; Wade did not do it by himself. No player ever wins it by themselves. Takes great teams to win a title in the NBA.

LBJ did not win it by himself (seems that I am repeating myself); It took a great team; but with no Ray Allen for Miami, Spurs win that title. But, alas, they did have Allen, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron.

No; GS was not necessarily going to win it without KD; they had just lost the year before without him....to Cleveland. (An addendum:  the best team does not always win anyway; Bird is quoted as saying the '84 Lakers should have swept yet those Celtics won that series. Nothing is given. But I believe they need KD to win it this year. Just an opinion.)

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 07, 2017, 12:01:13 pm
Agreed; Wade did not do it by himself. No player ever wins it by themselves. Takes great teams to win a title in the NBA.

LBJ did not win it by himself (seems that I am repeating myself); It took a great team; but with no Ray Allen for Miami, Spurs win that title. But, alas, they did have Allen, Bosh, Wade, and Lebron.

No; GS was not necessarily going to win it without KD; they had just lost the year before without him....to Cleveland. (An addendum:  the best team does not always win anyway; Bird is quoted as saying the '84 Lakers should have swept yet those Celtics won that series. Nothing is given. But I believe they need KD to win it this year. Just an opionion.)

you miss my point man. No LBJ ray Allen isn't even in the finals. If he is not there. There is no clutch shot to be had. GS would have won it without KD they are just head and shoulders better then everyone right now. You could make a case that had lenord not got hurt that the spurs could have got passed them. but after the spurs there's just not many who can stay on the same floor with them when they get it rolling! Including Cleveland

Actually, I get your point. I just disagree if we are discussing winning titles.  I agree that GS would have gotten to the finals without KD but I do not believe they would have won it without him over Cleveland.  Same with Lebron in Miami; take him away and they do not win it over SA although without Lebron they might not have gotten to the finals (hard to know).  I do believe this GS team is better than that Miami team. I think it has a better and more complete lineup but my opinion is that each needed that giant star to put them over the top.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 07, 2017, 12:46:44 pm
Actually, I get your point. I just disagree if we are discussing winning titles.  I agree that GS would have gotten to the finals without KD but I do not believe they would have won it without him over Cleveland.  Same with Lebron in Miami; take him away and they do not win it over SA although without Lebron they might not have gotten to the finals (hard to know).  I do believe this GS team is better than that Miami team. I think it has a better and more complete lineup but my opinion is that each needed that giant star to put them over the top.

we will just have to agree to disagree about GS. But as for the rest of your post I'm in 100% agreement with.

Understood.  I just enjoy talking sports with knowledgeable people.   Love basketball.  Love the NBA (for the most part!).

Playoffs are in full swing.   Lebron, KD, and Curry looking to move up on the all-time list.   Can Lebron win another title and possibly leapfrog Bird and Magic or do Curry and KD cement their legacies?  Or even CP and the Beard upset the apple cart?    Good stuff.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on May 09, 2018, 09:08:40 pm
Playoffs are in full swing.   Lebron, KD, and Curry looking to move up on the all-time list.   Can Lebron win another title and possibly leapfrog Bird and Magic or do Curry and KD cement their legacies?  Or even CP and the Beard upset the apple cart?    Good stuff.

LeBron carrying this team to the ship is crazy!

...but not surprising.   He is the best player in the NBA right now, the east is horrible, the Celtics were the next best team and missing two of its best three players, the NBA has gone crazy with all the 3s being launched even though as the playoffs go deeper, no team seems to be able to hit any besides the Warriors (the Rockets and Celtics shooting three after three was embarrassing as the misses piled up and the trips home became inevitable).  If Lebron can win one more series this year, he can join Magic and Bird on my list as 3C. 

His last three years are somewhat redefining his legacy.  I have always known his skill. I have always thought he was the greatest athlete to play the game. But, he had chinks in his armor. 

He doesn't disappear now. He doesn't give up. He pushes his team to the limits now.  If he had commanded the games in 4th quarters his entire career like he does now, he would be a top two all-time player right now for his career with possibly another title or two. May still get there anyway.  If he got with the right group for the last few years of his career and won a few more titles he could ascend to the top of the list with his talent.    His talent is undeniable; his will used to be, but now.......

I'm not counting out Lebron by any means. Or the Cavs.

Same.  He has moved into a different phase of his career in the last 4 seasons.  Man among boys.

Well this series is over.

Looking forward to a different Finals next year.

My Lakers need to make a hard push to add to the youth; like maybe Lebron, Kawhi, Paul George, Klay Thompson.   Just really throw some money out there and get some players who are good on both ends of the floor with some star power.  I'm not asking for much.......then face the Celtics or Sixers in the finals the next few years.  Sounds good to this fan from the 80s.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 07, 2018, 11:06:06 am
My Lakers need to make a hard push to add to the youth; like maybe Lebron, Kawhi, Paul George, Klay Thompson.   Just really throw some money out there and get some players who are good on both ends of the floor with some star power.  I'm not asking for much.......then face the Celtics or Sixers in the finals the next few years.  Sounds good to this fan from the 80s.

I think it's pretty realistic that Lakers are going after LBJ and PG13.

They should be pretty good with those additions and the young talent they already have accumulated. Just have to get someone to take on Deng's contract.

Lakers have always had money to throw around.  Not sure why they have waited so long unless it was a wait for Lebron.   Been down for longer than any stretch I can remember.
If the Celtics are going to be contenders, the Lakers have to do something.  Embarrassing to be so bad for so long.

Quote from: DerekOxford on June 06, 2018, 11:19:43 pm
Well this series is over.

Looking forward to a different Finals next year.

Different Finals next year?  I'll bet it's Warriors vs LaBron (with support) next year, UNLESS he's on the Warriors team.  He's supposed to meet with the Warriors front office in the near future.  2019 - most likely Warriors vs Rockets.

Quote from: Valleysports on June 08, 2018, 04:15:10 pm
Different Finals next year?  I'll bet it's Warriors vs LaBron (with support) next year, UNLESS he's on the Warriors team.  He's supposed to meet with the Warriors front office in the near future.  2019 - most likely Warriors vs Rockets.

I think there's a real chance that the Warriors don't win the West next year. Rockets should have beaten them this year and just ran into some really bad luck with the Paul injury. Whoever LBJ goes to (and I think he's going West) immediately becomes a contender. The Jazz and Pelicans are both very good. The Spurs could get better. Lakers become a threat if LBJ goes there.

Opinion:   With the core group the Warriors have, it will be an upset if they don't win the west unless some other team assembles and amasses a lot of talent.  Houston should have won with the lackluster play of the Warriors yet still did not beat them.   The Warriors, on their A game, are the best right now.     But, as much as I dislike Lebron, I hope the Lakers get him along with a few other stars and mesh by playoffs, defeat the Warriors and beat the Celtics in the finals.   Laker fan dreaming.....

A buddy and I were talking about who would be the odd man out of the warriors big 4, and we both agreed that it would be Klay Thompson. If Thompson leaves, I think he would be a great fit on the Jazz, which would make them a top team in the league. I hope it happens

...Lakers will take Klay with Lebron, Kawhi, and company....   

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 11, 2018, 01:16:39 pm
...Lakers will take Klay with Lebron, Kawhi, and company....   

I would love seeing this just for the fact that it would likely make Lavar Ball's head explode.

Same.....

Lebron has Lakers in the mix.  He needs at least one more title to move into my top 3.   If he leads these Lakers to the finals, that might be enough in my mind.  Win a few more and I could see him at #2.   Win 3 or 4 more and who knows?   His play in the last 4 seasons is unreal good.   

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5..  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. Wade
17. West
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. David Robinson
21. Karl Malone
22. Havlicek
23. Curry
24. Dirk
25. Bob Pettit /Mikan
Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale are spectacular honorable mentions.

If Durant and Curry win another title with such stellar play, they can move up.   Curry to 20 and KD right behind Big O.   Elite company.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. David Robinson
4. Tim Duncan
5. Larry Bryd
6. Lebron James
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Dennis Rodman
9. John Stockton
10. Shaquille O' Neal

Moncrief is in!!!!   Finally. 
He, Kareem, Dr J, and Darrell Walker were my favorites back in the day. 

Quote from: boogercat on December 30, 2018, 05:04:27 pm
1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. David Robinson
4. Tim Duncan
5. Larry Bryd
6. Lebron James
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Dennis Rodman
9. John Stockton
10. Shaquille O' Neal

Lol this has to be a joke right?

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 06, 2011, 08:44:58 pm
For those who don't know, Sidney Moncrief was about as good as it gets after MJ at that 2 guard but only did it for a limited amount of time. He just missed out on being voted into the Hall years ago. He lacked longevity. I still remember the SI issue where it was stated that in his earlier years that Moncrief defended MJ better than any other player in the league.

And now he is a Hall of Famer!
Patterned my game after Moncrief and Walker. 

The Golden State Warriors are now 29-1 in the 30 games that Kevin Durant has not played as a Warrior due to injury that Steph Curry has played in ..... Sorry not sorry

Curry > Durant


The Splash Brothers look like the splash brothers again the last 3 games since they can play freely like they want

Giannis Antetokounmpo will be on this list in the next 3-4 years.

Quote from: DerekOxford on May 18, 2019, 09:30:37 pm
Giannis Antetokounmpo will be on this list in the next 3-4 years.

Yes, and I love the surrounding pieces he has. I can see why Lebron wanted Eric Bledsoe the last few years cause he plays hard and a good cog in the machine of the current Bucks roster. Plus, all the other guys around him have length and can shoot the 3 ball. Unless the Raptors or Blazers pull a miracle getting to watch the flashiness of the Warriors vs the length of the Bucks will be a great matchup.

Quote from: beach bum on May 18, 2019, 09:56:32 pm
Yes, and I love the surrounding pieces he has. I can see why Lebron wanted Eric Bledsoe the last few years cause he plays hard and a good cog in the machine of the current Bucks roster. Plus, all the other guys around him have length and can shoot the 3 ball. Unless the Raptors or Blazers pull a miracle getting to watch the flashiness of the Warriors vs the length of the Bucks will be a great matchup.

I don't think it's crazy to say the Bucks can beat them.

Agreed.   

This championship series will determine who makes the biggest leap forward on my all time rankings:  Kawhi or Steph.

Steph could cement himself as a top 15 in the Wade tier.  If he wins this title without KD, he moves in front of KD, Wade, West, and maybe even Moses Malone in my opinion. 

If Kawhi wins, he moves into my top 25 and who knows where he can end up with his stellar all-around play and his "just win" credentials.  Top all-time winning percentage in history just ahead of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird is a telling tale!!

This has been such a strange series to say the least....

Also, I bet Durant wishes he never came back and tried to play now that he has a ruptured achilles tendon trying to play on his calf injury too soon. You actually feel awful for him. I thought he was leaving the Warriors this offseason, but I think as long as they will pay him what others will then he will stay now with the Warriors so he can manage his minutes load more. If he goes somewhere else he will be needed more to carry the load. If he stays with the Warriors he can ease back from this injury not needing to carry the load as much. This is all barring he can even come back to just be as close to the same player he was before?

Now if the Warriors just can't offer him the same money as say the Lakers, Clippers, Nets, or Knicks he may just leave cause the Warriors are so far into the luxury tax its crazy. Hard to pay 4 players that much money. If one of those 4 teams can offer 20 or so million more over 4 years or something like that the money will do the talking obviously.

Quote from: beach bum on June 12, 2019, 07:52:43 pm
This has been such a strange series to say the least....

Also, I bet Durant wishes he never came back and tried to play now that he has a ruptured achilles tendon trying to play on his calf injury too soon.........

He got medical advice.
He knew how he felt.   
His team was facing elimination.
He did what any elite athlete should have done.
He played.

Quote from: bleudog on June 12, 2019, 10:16:33 pm
He got medical advice.
He knew how he felt.   
His team was facing elimination.
He did what any elite athlete should have done.
He played.

The torn achilles and loss of millions of dollars most likely speaks for itself...

I am good on either side of the equation with this.  I am old school and believe you play if you can play. But, I also believe you have a right to protect yourself if you know your injury is bad.   Kawhi tried to come back when doctors said he was able to play.  He realized he wasn't right and refused to play and is back playing great ball and leading.  Kareem back in the day took himself out and came back strong.  KD played and we see the result.  There are so many examples on either side.  So, I truly believe it is up to the individuals to make the wise choice for themselves.  I realize that some don't possess the intestinal fortitude to make the right choice but we have to give a mulligan to the ones who truly are hurt and choose not to play.  Just another opinion.     BTW, Kareem is my all-time favorite player; Kawhi is my favorite since Kobe retired; I am also a big fan of KD and Steph who have had to endure injuries in their careers.   So, I have athletes on both sides of this scenario.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 13, 2019, 09:57:19 am
I am good on either side of the equation with this.  I am old school and believe you play if you can play. But, I also believe you have a right to protect yourself if you know your injury is bad.   Kawhi tried to come back when doctors said he was able to play.  He realized he wasn't right and refused to play and is back playing great ball and leading.  Kareem back in the day took himself out and came back strong.  KD played and we see the result.  There are so many examples on either side.  So, I truly believe it is up to the individuals to make the wise choice for themselves.  I realize that some don't possess the intestinal fortitude to make the right choice but we have to give a mulligan to the ones who truly are hurt and choose not to play.  Just another opinion.     BTW, Kareem is my all-time favorite player; Kawhi is my favorite since Kobe retired; I am also a big fan of KD and Steph who have had to endure injuries in their careers.   So, I have athletes on both sides of this scenario.

I hate he got hurt, but hindsight is 20/20.

The NBA has gone from a league to a soap opera.  If he hadn't played when his team was on the verge of elimination and his team does go on to lose, every talking head in sports media would have been saying it was to posture himself to prove they couldn't win without him.  Now the public persona is he tried to pull his team back from the jaws of defeat, where it would have been he bailed to prove a point. 

It's all about the "brand" these days.

I am an eternal optimist. I only look for the good ... ... most of the time.  I am fine that KD tried to come back.  I respect that.  But, I am also fine that Kawhi tried, knew he wasn't "right" and let his quad heal up when he was in San Antonio.   I know none of these men personally, but, I love sports, so I will just have to take them at their word and enjoy when they are playing and especially when playing well like Kawhi is right now.   I preferred the "real" men era of the 80s and into the 90s but still love the game now. In the finals, they have let them play again this year.   Refreshing when they can actually play defense.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 13, 2019, 10:15:00 am
I am an eternal optimist. I only look for the good ... ... most of the time.  I am fine that KD tried to come back.  I respect that.  But, I am also fine that Kawhi tried, knew he wasn't "right" and let his quad heal up when he was in San Antonio.   I know none of these men personally, but, I love sports, so I will just have to take them at their word and enjoy when they are playing and especially when playing well like Kawhi is right now.   I preferred the "real" men era of the 80s and into the 90s but still love the game now. In the finals, they have let them play again this year.   Refreshing when they can actually play defense.

I get the impression you're old enough or enough of a student of the game to know who this is.

(https://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/15-willis-reed-nba-finals-game-7.jpg)

Yes, sir.  Mr. Reed coming back to the finals after injury to lead them back to the title!!  Willis Reed was one of my favorites of my childhood.  I would play ball by myself and be Clyde, DeBusschere, Earl the Pearl, Bradley, and Reed vs. Kareem, Big O, Dandridge and company.  That was before Dr. J came in and Kareem went to the Lakers who then became my favorite team for life. (Living through some lean years for awhile now!!).

I know the Bucks beat the Bullets in the finals, but I always thought the Bucks and Knicks were the two best teams of the late 60s-early 70s and wanted them to meet. That one great Lakers team with Wilt must be thrown in the mix too.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Even Wilt had to have help guarding him. First time in his career that he asked for help on a player. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.

5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable  player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.

13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. Wade
17. West
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. David Robinson
21. Karl Malone
22. Havlicek
23. Curry
24. Dirk
25. Bob Pettit /Mikan
Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale are spectacular honorable mentions.

If Durant and Curry win another title with such stellar play, they can move up.   Curry to 20 and KD right behind Big O.   Elite company.

Where will Kawhi enter my all-time rankings after these finals????

I don't always follow stats for my criteria.  But that stat during the game the other night about Kawhi, Magic, and Bird having the three highest winning percentages of all-time is a very good stat to start with.   

I'd swap your Malones but I'm biased because of his north Louisiana high school and college roots.  ;D

But then again, I always liked The Chief too.  ;)

I understand.   I think Moses gets lost in the shuffle of all time greats with lots of folks.  Great great offensive player.  Won a championship during the Magic/Bird era.  Moves him up my list. 

Karl is top 4 all time power forward. #1 on many lists.

Both teams playing so hard tonight.... This is what basketball looks like when the best players on the planet are playing all out. Guys flying all over the court for rebounds and loose balls. Kawhi taking hard hits at the rim and the splash brothers doing their thing. Draymond fierce on defense and the boards. Lowry had a great first half.

Spot on assessment. 

Kawhi now has two.  Great player!
Klay and Iguodala showed me a lot too. 
Great game. 

This has always been a dilemma for me when making my own lists:  great players with a shorter time span of greatness (Sidney Moncrief, Bill Walton, etc.   It's why I put Duncan over Shaq.)  This is where Kawhi is right now.  No doubt he is one of the greatest all around players I have ever watched. He has the entire game.  But short span of time keeps me from moving him too high on the list.  With the best winning percentage of any player ever, two titles, two finals MVPs I move him into my top 25.  Total body of work is very meaningful.   

Curry moves up to #20 for his stellar play and championship history now.  If Kawhi stays healthy, he is primed to move up rapidly like Lebron did for me.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."   

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. 

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. But, he did win titles and led the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal.








13. Hakeem  (I believe it was Hakeem who was partly responsible for the growth of Shaq to greatness. The tools were there, but Hakeem schooling him in the finals let Shaq know there was still work to be done.)  Hakeem was incredible but particularly great during that run.
14. Moses Malone  I believe possibly the most underrated and overlooked great ever.  Not certain why. Maybe because he played in the ABA first. Was a man in the middle on offense. 
15. Durant  Like Wilt, he is one of the most prolific scorers ever. His defense in finals vs. Lebron moved him way up my list.
16. Wade    Overachieved most of his career. The type of player I want on my team. Rose to the occasion.
17. West     Icon of the NBA.
18. Barkley Testament to his greatness is that he is my highest ranked player without a title. I believe he was better than Karl.
19. Pippen   Versatility defined.  Half of a great 1-2 punch.
20. Curry     Moving on up the lists. One of the top shooters in history.  What a touch.  And wins ....  Championships and MVPs.
21. David Robinson
22. Karl Malone
23. Havlicek
24. Dirk
25. Bob Pettit /Mikan
Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale are spectacular honorable mentions.

Quote from: bleudog on June 13, 2019, 04:39:15 pm
I'd swap your Malones but I'm biased because of his north Louisiana high school and college roots.  ;D

But then again, I always liked The Chief too.  ;)

It strikes me kind of funny, but, I hated the Celtics in the 80s (still do), but have an admiration for just how great they were.  Bird was the enemy then, but now he is one of my favorites all-time.  I think DJ, McHale, and the Chief were also great.  Cornbread seemed to make every shot he took.  Just a great team.    Had Bird stayed healthy, we might have him at #1 on all of our lists.  He was that good.  Again, that longevity thing ...

-Klay Thompson such a good guy and now he is out a while too

-And I just saw it flash across the screen that Anthony Davis to the Lakers is official  :o .... With Kawhi more than likely headed to the Clippers so he can be back in California means the two Los Angeles teams may be the favorites next year. All barring that all parties involved can stay healthy which is much easier said than done

I like your list overall though Rattler and this year was also a microcosm of why your list has the people on it.... The injury bugs this postseason only goes to show why Michael's 6 titles, Lebron's 8 straight finals appearances, the Lakers and Celtics of the 80's, and Kobe were so impressive. Until Lebron this year and Kobe late in his career all those examples were able to stay healthy to sustain their success long term. The Warriors dynasty took the hit this year and may have been stopped a little prematurely from where it could have ultimately been. All those people on your list stayed healthy playing postseason after postseason totaling between 100-105 games a year. So hard to do!

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 13, 2019, 10:15:00 am
I am an eternal optimist. I only look for the good ... ... most of the time.  I am fine that KD tried to come back.  I respect that.  But, I am also fine that Kawhi tried, knew he wasn't "right" and let his quad heal up when he was in San Antonio.   I know none of these men personally, but, I love sports, so I will just have to take them at their word and enjoy when they are playing and especially when playing well like Kawhi is right now.   I preferred the "real" men era of the 80s and into the 90s but still love the game now. In the finals, they have let them play again this year.   Refreshing when they can actually play defense.

That is why a person like him who shows zero emotion was nearly brought to tears. When he said he had a rough year last year he was talking obviously about all the people who called him selfish for doing what he knew was best for him long term. I think he quieted all the haters who questioned his intentions and character. Being able to think about the long term like that takes mental and emotional maturity on his part to keep the big picture in mind. Kevin Durant has always been an emotional guy who cared too much what people thought of him and I believe that mindset drove him back too soon. Kawhi doesn't care what people think of him. Neither is right or wrong though.

I believe if he can string together five more great seasons with a championship or two, he can move into my top 10 or so.  He's that good.  The staying healthy factor you mentioned will be a big part of it. 

Kawhi is like a slightly more complete Dr. J.  He is a better outside shooter, better defender, and slightly better ball handler. Dr. J was a better scorer and almost unstoppable in transition.  Still, he lacks the good doctor's longevity of greatness for now. 

Just watched a Bill Simmons interview with Julius Erving.  Very interesting.  He said nobody gets into the alltime greats conversation until they've got 10 years in.   I think I may agree. Kawhi May move out of my top 25 ...   The interview solidified my belief that Dr. J is top ten all time and maybe as high as top three.   He almost lived in ABA and NBA finals.  Getting to the finals by beating those Bird Celtics and Moncrief Bucks was incredible. Beating the Kareem and Magic Lakers (in a sweep!) was the big one. 

I am going to turn this into a free agency thread for the next few days to a week....

-Kemba Walker to the Celtics

-Kyrie and Durant will be teaming up in Brooklyn, well as soon as Durant is able to play again

- Durant going out East leads me to believe that we are about to see Kawhi go to the Lakers which is crazy to think. Who is going to beat the Lakers the next couple years in a 7 game series as long as their big 3 stays healthy. I say this cause if Kawhi was going to go to the Clippers which was thought to be a big possibility that Durant would have joined Kawhi with the Clippers. I think Durant must see the writing on the wall that no one is beating the Lakers in the West with those 3 together so he ran East. Maybe there is a tiny chance Kawhi stays in Toronto or goes to the Clippers but I doubt it now.

Brook Lopez to resign with the Milwaukee Bucks. I like this for them to help stay in the top 2 or 3 in the East cause he plays hard nosed and can stretch the floor with a pretty good outside shot he has developed over time.

Damien Lillard signs long term in Portland which I think everyone knew would happen. This should keep Portland steady in the West between 4th and 8th for a while as a playoff team knowing he is locked up now as your key piece.

DeAndre Jordan is also joining the Nets I forgot to add with Durant and Kyrie. He is past his prime and does not add anything outside of his freak athleticism so we'll see just how big that is or isn't.

Good stuff.  Lakers have always been my favorite (at least since Kareem came over) and Kawhi is my favorite player right now so I'm hoping...   Keep the updates coming. 

Quote from: RATTLER43 on June 30, 2019, 05:29:47 pm
Good stuff.  Lakers have always been my favorite (at least since Kareem came over) and Kawhi is my favorite player right now so I'm hoping...   Keep the updates coming.

I think your Lakers will be in good hands even if Kawhi does not come.... Rumor is the back up plan is for D'Angelo Russell to come back to LA if needed if Leonard does not come. I watched the Nets play in round 1 and they didn't lose cause of Russell. He was making big shots under pressure situations the first 2 games of round 1 against the Sixers. Him going there to be the man was the best thing for his career cause he would be a solid #3 player for them.

-I guess pretty much everyone except Giannis was up for free agency for the Bucks cause along with Lopez.... Middleton signed a big, long term deal with the Bucks

-However they could not hold on to Brogdon as he has gone to the Pacers away from the Bucks. Guess Milwaukee couldn't pay them all

-Tobias Harris to sign big for the Sixers

-JJ Redick away from the Sixers to the Pelicans for mid level money

-Porzingis signs long term with Dallas after being dealt there from the Knicks

-Ben Simmons starting talks of a long term extension for the Sixers, if they keep Butler and Leonard does in fact leave the Raptors like we expect then I see the Sixers as new favorites in the East actually

-Ricky Rubio leaves the Jazz for mid level money to the Phoenix Suns

-Julius Randle heads to the Knicks for slightly less than max money, man are the Knicks desperate after losing out on the draft lottery and getting no big name free agents

-Derrick Rose for 2 years to the Pistons

-Harrison Barnes for 85 million over 4 years to the Kings, man that guy knows how to get paid for lower level teams willing to overpay

-Jimmy Butler to the Miami Heat, they must have really splashed the cash to get him to go there

-With him leaving the Sixers, Al Horford signed with the Sixers which now gives Philly a pretty lethal front court of Horford and Embiid

-Vucevic stays with the Magic for 100 million over 4 years, sheesh its unreal what just good/solid players are paid now. He isn't even close to a superstar and look at that cash. Helps that the Magic have a bunch of cap space not tied up in any superstars.

D'Angelo Russell to the  Warriors  :o

That was a big pickup for the Warriors....

Lots of movement...

ESPN reported Kawhi and Paul George to Clippers...

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 06, 2019, 08:39:26 am
ESPN reported Kawhi and Paul George to Clippers...

The world is being turned upside down lol.... Here are my thoughts about next year

West
1.Clippers (talk about Leonard's and George's overall game, but they are two way players and play defense, throw in Patrick Beverly and Harrel's defense this Clippers defense might mirror the Spurs of the last decade when they were rolling)

2. Lakers (Lebron and Anthony Davis stay healthy I don't care who else you play with them)

3.Warriors (as long as Klay comes back healthy by postseason they will be ok, that's a big if though)

4. Rockets ( I think their ship has sailed, but still they could get hot at the right time)


East

1.Sixers (losing Butler but getting Al Horford and Tobias Harris locked up they will have a long and rangy team with a great defense too)

2.Bucks (only lost one cog from a young core, they are long and rangy too so there is a lot to like)

3.Nets (KD will likely be back in 2020-2021 but they got to go here if he even comes back even close to usual KD)

4.Celtics ( I think this may sound crazy, but I think Kemba Walker will be a better fit than Kyrie for this organization, that's why I think they stay really competitive)

First off, I prefer all-time greats to remain with one team throughout their careers.  Seems extra special in my mind's eye:  Stan Musial, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Cal Ripken Jr., Tony Gwynn, Craig Biggio, Chipper Jones types.   But, Nolan Ryan and Willie Mays (although Mays like Aaron get a mulligan for teams moving then wanting to go back home to New York and Milwaukee to finish up where they began) are my all-time favorites, so I can respect other routes as well.  Kawhi had already been traded by SA, so going to the third team makes little difference in that regard.  What I do really like about this is the appearance that he is trying to do it the "old-school" way of going out and beating the best instead of joining them.   I have no argument against the fact that all great teams had multiple great players on them, but Dr. J wanted to beat Kareem's and Magic's Lakers, beat Bird's Celtics, and beat Moncrief's Bucks.  Same with Magic, Bird, and Jordan.   Jordan wanted to prove himself by climbing that incredible ladder of beating the Bad Boy Pistons, beating the C's, and knocking Magic off the perch.  He had to have great teammates but not collecting so many top ten players to join him or him leaving to join them.  Had any of them done it, I would have been fine with it. I just respect the way they did it.  Kawhi now has to play past Lebron head to head in LA, beat out the Warriors/Rockets, etc., and then beat the best team from the East.  I like it.    Just my thoughts on a summer day.

Quote from: beach bum on July 06, 2019, 05:41:15 pm
The world is being turned upside down lol.... Here are my thoughts about next year

West
1.Clippers (talk about Leonard's and George's overall game, but they are two way players and play defense, throw in Patrick Beverly and Harrel's defense this Clippers defense might mirror the Spurs of the last decade when they were rolling)

2. Lakers (Lebron and Anthony Davis stay healthy I don't care who else you play with them)

3.Warriors (as long as Klay comes back healthy by postseason they will be ok, that's a big if though)

4. Rockets ( I think their ship has sailed, but still they could get hot at the right time)


East

1.Sixers (losing Butler but getting Al Horford and Tobias Harris locked up they will have a long and rangy team with a great defense too)

2.Bucks (only lost one cog from a young core, they are long and rangy too so there is a lot to like)

3.Nets (KD will likely be back in 2020-2021 but they got to go here if he even comes back even close to usual KD)

4.Celtics ( I think this may sound crazy, but I think Kemba Walker will be a better fit than Kyrie for this organization, that's why I think they stay really competitive)

Does anybody else keep getting Kyrie's and Kawhi's names confused?  ;D

At least there's not anybody in the NBA named Kiwi, is there?

Not that I know of ... yet ... but, how about these ...

World B. Free
Carlos Boozer
Dionte Christmas
Fat Lever
Uwe Blab
Metta World Peace

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 08, 2019, 12:46:38 pm
Kawhi now has to play past Lebron head to head in LA, beat out the Warriors/Rockets, etc., and then beat the best team from the East.  I like it.    Just my thoughts on a summer day.

He completely outclassed Lebron in the finals a few years ago.  I have a feeling the Clippers will do the same to the Lakers this coming season.  The Lakers will be dangerous if Davis & James stay healthy and they go and get a legit perimeter scorer.

Agreed.  I'm of the opinion that Kawhi is the best player in the NBA, is super athletic, super skilled, and has that intangible "it" quality that leads/drives him to win and to greatness.  If you give him much to team with, he just keeps winning.  Should be a great rivalry if they remain healthy. 

Quote from: RATTLER43 on July 09, 2019, 08:52:52 am
Not that I know of ... yet ... but, how about these ...

World B. Free
Carlos Boozer
Dionte Christmas
Fat Lever
Uwe Blab
Metta World Peace

Here they go again. 

There's a Chris Paul and a Paul George. 

Is there a Chris George or a Paul Paul?   ???


Even the "traditional" names are confusing.  ;D

Paul Paul ....     ;D

There's a Bol Bol.

Keep 'em coming ....

Actually, back to the news:  I heard Westbrook is joining Harden in Houston.
The West is full of 1-2 combos and the landscape has changed drastically.
Just wow.

Kawhi/George
Curry/Thompson
Lebron/AD
Harden/Westbrook
...

I think the Warriors are still the best offense. But, I believe the Clippers can lock down defensively now with those two and Beverley. 

NBA is back. My Lakers are off to a decent start.

But I've been on this all time greats topic for a long time now.  I watched a YouTube video where they were discussing all time greats and came to Lebron and Bird.  He gave a great analysis of both. Maybe the greatest super athlete of alltime vs. the most fundamentally sound plus highest basketball IQ plus most competitive player of all time.  He had this one part where he said that if you watch the early part of career that Lebron actually won lots of games at the end as well as disappearing in many 4th quarters.  Bird was ALWAYS the go to guy. We knew that. He said the separation comes because of triple threat.  Bird would beat you in every way because he could drive, pass, deadly range, and if you fouled he was automatic plus he could move without the ball.  He said that when Wade or any other scorer had the ballot, Lebron stood around not knowing what to do. I think it was good analysis of the two best small forwards ever.  Nonetheless, Lebron can move up in the Bird/Magic level in my book with a couple more titles. 

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."   

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. 

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. But, he did win titles and led the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 12, 2019, 09:48:14 pm
NBA is back. My Lakers are off to a decent start.

But I've been on this all time greats topic for a long time now.  I watched a YouTube video where they were discussing all time greats and came to Lebron and Bird.  He gave a great analysis of both. Maybe the greatest super athlete of alltime vs. the most fundamentally sound plus highest basketball IQ plus most competitive player of all time.  He had this one part where he said that if you watch the early part of career that Lebron actually won lots of games at the end as well as disappearing in many 4th quarters.  Bird was ALWAYS the go to guy. We knew that. He said the separation comes because of triple threat.  Bird would beat you in every way because he could drive, pass, deadly range, and if you fouled he was automatic plus he could move without the ball.  He said that when Wade or any other scorer had the ballot, Lebron stood around not knowing what to do. I think it was good analysis of the two best small forwards ever.  Nonetheless, Lebron can move up in the Bird/Magic level in my book with a couple more titles. 

Unless Lebron can play his last 5 years with a broken back and average 20 a game, he'll never be on Larry's level.

I must take longevity of excellence into consideration.  If not, and I just took Bird's best five years, he is 1C with Kareem and MJ.  Their sustained greatness moves them up.  But if I'm choosing, I'll always take Bird over Lebron. 

To go along with that line of thinking, I personally would take Kobe over Lebron if I were a GM. But Lebron had a 4-year stretch including the come-from-behind finals where he was incredible.  That stretch along with the incredible statistical accumulations and win percentage of his career moves him ahead of Kobe in my overall rankings.   But, Lebron needed to have done that in finals the entire career for me to move him ahead of Bird.

Lebron and Kawhi got the L.A. teams looking good. 

Lebron could solidify his #5 ranking with a finals appearance and make a run at Bird and Magic with a couple more titles.

Kawhi is trying to lead a third team to the finals. Another championship and finals MVP could provide a real conundrum for me.  It would be like Sandy Koufax and Roger Staubach in that they are all time greats in shorter careers. That list is short. Hoping Kawhi can play a long time. If so, he could really make a run at folks on my top ten list. 


1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."   

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. 

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game.

8.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. But, he did win titles and led the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 4 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal.

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/77091142_10157583093911006_1663035835504656384_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=7VsXHUsVchwAQkAYGsRB7Syf3jnMdE0GZcACr4eRoieCCMbzSzTeTJIeQ&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=f128f957dbf9888de17dc44d40c71bbe&oe=5E84DC6D)

Impressive indeed. 

I read where Lebron James was named AP Athlete of the Decade over Brady, Bolt, and Phelps. 

Lakers fan for my life; not a big Lebron fan.  This is getting tough for my analysis.  He and Davis look good but struggle putting away good teams right now.
I guess, like  I have always done, I will use the playoffs as my great tool of evaluation.

Players like Maravich, McGrady, and such have taken hits by their lack of overall success. Not to say they were not great but don't go as high as some around them.

Lebron has a real opportunity to improve his standing these final years in L.A.   Even with my lack of enthusiasm over acquiring him (I was on the Kawhi train), I still want the Lakers to win.   

Kobe Bryant has died in a helicopter crash in California. Unbelievably sad news.

Icon for sure.  Even the Pro Bowl gave due respect as did NBA teams.   
NBA elite.  RIP

With all of the sports shut down due to C-19 news, I have been watching lots of YouTube basketball videos.  Lots of input.


1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."      In some of the YouTube videos, loads of analysts believe Bird is at the top of the list. One not so scientific video discusses that Bird beat more all-time greats than any other player:  (everything listed in the next few lines comes from the video; you need to verify) beat MJ in two playoff sweeps so he owned Jordan, beat Kareem in the 84 NBA championship, beat Magic and Worthy in that same title run, Beat the Dr. J and Moses Malone (plus Barkley later on) Sixers multiple times, beat the Zeke/Dumars/Bad Boys Pistons, beat Moncrief, Johnson, Lanier, Pressey Bucks, Hakeen and Sampson Rockets, Dominique and the Hawks, etc.  Who else can say the same?  The Kareem/Magic group may have been the team of the 80s but Bird beat everybody during his time.  Pretty incredible achievement.  Another video on one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  I thought of Iceman, Pistol Pete, McGrady (with that one playoff game exception!), Bernard King, Karl Malone, Lebron*, Wilt, etc.   Great players but not on the same tier as MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem who just found ways to  get it done even with the game on the line.  One of the videos showed clip after clip of Bird hitting game winners. Another showed interviews and Dominique talked about Bird hitting clutch shot after clutch shot for an entire 4th quarter because without any of them, the Hawks would have won the game.  True clutch. 

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.  On one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  It reiterates what was missing from Lebron for half his career.

6.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ.

7.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win....

7b.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it with bad FG% and horrible FT% but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game.

7c.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. But, he did win titles and led the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete.

10.  Dr. J  His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 3 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs and two finals MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal.



13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. West
17. Wade
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. Curry
21. David Robinson
22. Havlicek
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Bob Pettit/Mikan

Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale, Pierce, Zeke, DJ, among others are spectacular honorable mentions.

Just an update during these "sportsless" days... during my lunch.

My man, Bobby Jones, going into the HOF!!   NBA voters beginning to recognize other facets of the game outside of scoring.  Moncrief and Jones were parts of those great Bucks and Sixers teams of the 80s.  Watched a video interview with Jones then one with Dr. J where they talked about the collective greatness and physicality of the Celtics, Sixers, and Bucks.  Then read an article interview with Jones.  Great stuff.  Brings back fantastic memories. 

...

Bird
Kareem
Wilt
Jordan
James
Magic
Russell
Marivich
Koby
Dirk

That's a great group indeed. 

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Big O
Lebron
Dr J
Kobe
Duncan

Top 10 is very tough to call. One thing I've seen on some lists that I definitely can't agree w is Shaq being included. He was as dominant a player as I've seen on the block, and who knows how many rings the Lakers could've won if him and Kobe would have stayed together. But...if you can't shoot the ball outside of four feet you're not making my top ten. Top twenty maybe

Wilt and Shaq were similar. Wilt's free throw percentage was actually worse than Shaq's. The reason Wilt makes my list are two numbers. 30 ppg and 22 rpg for his career. Unbelievable

Quote from: Walter s on April 14, 2020, 10:30:32 am

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Big O
Lebron
Dr J
Kobe
Duncan

Top 10 is very tough to call. One thing I've seen on some lists that I definitely can't agree w is Shaq being included. He was as dominant a player as I've seen on the block, and who knows how many rings the Lakers could've won if him and Kobe would have stayed together. But...if you can't shoot the ball outside of four feet you're not making my top ten. Top twenty maybe

I like your analysis.   I, too, think they are very similar.  Shaq was just too unstoppable in my opinion to leave him out.  I believe Wilt, Russell, Duncan, and Shaq all grade out about equal for me when you consider what they brought including intangibles.  But, you can't go wrong with your list. And as to it being difficult, that is why my top 10 is actually a top 12 !!  I couldn't leave out any of those players. Hakeem and Moses Malone were extremely tough to leave out of my top 10.   As the years go by, a top 10 will just get tougher and tougher.  It makes for great discussion though.

I also liked that you had Dr. J and Big O in there.  Those two, for various reasons, get overlooked as all-time greats by some.  Dr. J due to a large part of career (and much of that during his prime) being in the ABA and Big O because Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry West, and even Bob Pettit seem to get all the nods from that era.  Big O was great at every phase of the game and Dr. J was so gifted and had such a will to win that he was majestic, great, and seemed to be battling for championships throughout his career.

Yes, I don't understand why Big O gets overlooked. His career #'s are something like 25 pts 8 reb 7 assists per game, and I believe he averaged a triple double for five seasons. An argument can be made, he's the most versatile player to ever play. Imo only Magic and Lebron would pose a challenge to him in that regard. He could do it all. For some reason, he doesn't get a lot of love, but he easily makes my list in top 5 area, and that will never change. As far as Dr. J, he's the reason I fell in love w basketball. I mean just watch him play. Sentimental or not, he's another one that will always be in my top ten.

Understood.     Dr. J, Sidney Moncrief, and Kareem were my first favorites.  I tried to emulate them on the court as a kid.  Couldn't do it.  So I patterned my game after Darrell Walker and sprinkle in some Moncrief and Dr. J.    They got me into basketball as well.

Big O could play the 1, 2, or 3 I believe.  Skill and athleticism in every area of basketball.
Lebron can play the 1, 2, 3, and 4 if needed.   Skilled (maybe not as much as Big O) but like I have mentioned before, possibly the greatest athletic specimen to ever play the game.
Magic could play 1, 2, 3, 4 (yes, I know he played the 5 in that one game...). Skilled and court vision unreal.


I think Bird is in this group. Could play the 2, 3, and 4.  Super skilled. Maybe the most skilled player I ever saw.
Finally, I believe MJ could have played the 1, 2, or 3 well due to his skill, athleticism, and sheer will.   Still, I have Robertson and Lebron at the top of this versatility topic.

Who else?    Maybe Kobe or Hondo?

I agree w you on all points. I haven't researched Hondo enough to know his overall game. I know he could score. That's probably based on my hatred for the Celtics. Lol. I, like you, was a fan of Kareem and Dr. J as a kid. And then when Magic burst onto the scene in 79 I was hooked. His court vision and his love for the game out there smiling all the time it had me. The showtime lakers were my team from then on, and the sixers were a close second. But I could not stand the Celtics. They broke my heart too many times, but what a team! What a rivalry that was! Anyway I digress. The versatility debate. Idk about Kobe. He was a scorer. A killer in the clutch. I feel like he looked to score every time, instead of to assist when maybe it was there. As he should though. You wanted that guy looking to score every time he touched it. I could be wrong on that. That's how I remember it.

I saw where Bill Lambier said he thinks Lebron the best ever. I wonder how many people feel that way. For me, it's Jordan. He would get mauled 2 or 3 times driving to the basket and still finish. Defenses part like the Red Sea for Lebron. Ok..an exaggeration but they played more physical defense back then imo.

We are from the same era.  Lakers have always been my favorite. Loved the Sixers too. Dr. J and Bobby Jones were my two favorites on their teams then Moses Malone and Caldwell Jones (while with the Sixers) because he was from Arkansas. Toney was a killer.   Hated the Celtics yet now believe I respect Bird's game as much as anyone who ever played.   Agreed on Kobe. 

Many feel that way.  I believe it is because he was before their time.  It has always worked that way.  Many people from my era have little love for players from the 50s and 60s. I know that those stars would be stars today:  Wilt, Russell, Robertson, West, Pettit, Mikan, and such.  So athletic and so skilled.  They might have some differences in their games and their stats would change but I believe they would still be stars.  Same with Dr. J and Kareem, Bird and Magic, and I believe MJ and Bird would torch teams in today's NBA due to rule changes to allow for more scoring and less intense defense.  Unlike some folks, I believe Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, KD, and Curry would be great in any era too.  I think Curry would have the most trouble in the more rugged era but he is too skilled to stop.  Just my opinion.

I would take MJ over Lebron due to his killer instinct and clutch play in high-pressure situations, that intangible that some have and some don't.  He and Bird are at the top of that list.  Physicality unreal back then.   

Agree 100% w the last paragraph. To say I didn't like Bird when he was playing is a big understatement. But I grew to appreciate his greatness. You're right about him being stone cold killer in pressure situations. Every time the lakers/celtics were in a tight game(and there were many), I'd be praying "just please don't let bird get it, anyone but bird, please." But he always got it and almost always delivered one way or another. He is now one of my favorites. One of the few "complete, versatile" players. A fierce competitor, and what a shooter.

You noted MJ along w Bird as clutch players. I would also add Kobe to those 2. Everyone knew those 3 were getting it in high pressure moments. Didn't matter. They wanted it. They delivered. This is the area where I feel Lebron isn't in the same league as those guys. In recent years he has definitely had some clutch moments, but in his early years when game was on the line I remember him driving and passing off. This happened several times. A physical specimen like that could get to the basket at will, and he's not taking the last shot. Couldn't understand that. He's better at it now, but I have to take into account those years when he wasn't.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on April 15, 2020, 10:39:33 am
We are from the same era.  Lakers have always been my favorite. Loved the Sixers too. Dr. J and Bobby Jones were my two favorites on their teams then Moses Malone and Caldwell Jones (while with the Sixers) because he was from Arkansas. Toney was a killer.   Hated the Celtics yet now believe I respect Bird's game as much as anyone who ever played.   Agreed on Kobe. 

Many feel that way. I believe it is because he was before their time.  It has always worked that way.  Many people from my era have little love for players from the 50s and 60s. I know that those stars would be stars today:  Wilt, Russell, Robertson, West, Pettit, Mikan, and such.  So athletic and so skilled.  They might have some differences in their games and their stats would change but I believe they would still be stars.  Same with Dr. J and Kareem, Bird and Magic, and I believe MJ and Bird would torch teams in today's NBA due to rule changes to allow for more scoring and less intense defense.  Unlike some folks, I believe Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, KD, and Curry would be great in any era too.  I think Curry would have the most trouble in the more rugged era but he is too skilled to stop.  Just my opinion.

I would take MJ over Lebron due to his killer instinct and clutch play in high-pressure situations, that intangible that some have and some don't.  He and Bird are at the top of that list.  Physicality unreal back then.   

Just saw a pic of Bill Russell clearing about 6'10" in high jump for SF back in the day.  #7 in the world at the time.  No Fosbury Flop.   I still believe stars from any era would be stars in most other eras.  Too athletic at that level. I watch/listened to an interview with Mark Jackson about the "documentary".  He said everyone in the NBA is a great athlete but even then there are levels.  I agree.  Bill Russell's athleticism and drive would make him great in any era.  I believe Big O, Mikan, Pettit, Wilt,  West, Baylor, and the like would be great now.  I believe Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, KD, Curry, and Giannis would be great in any era (Curry would, in my opinion, have some trouble with the physicality of the 80s and 90s, but he is too gifted and would have adapted.).  I still leave my top 10* list as is.  MJ is still the greatest having unreal athleticism, skills at every fundamental, drive, and that "it" quality. 

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."      In some of the YouTube videos, loads of analysts believe Bird is at the top of the list. One not so scientific video discusses that Bird beat more all-time greats than any other player:  (everything listed in the next few lines comes from the video; you need to verify) beat MJ in two playoff sweeps so he owned Jordan, beat Kareem in the 84 NBA championship, beat Magic and Worthy in that same title run, Beat the Dr. J and Moses Malone (plus Barkley later on) Sixers multiple times, beat the Zeke/Dumars/Bad Boys Pistons, beat Moncrief, Johnson, Lanier, Pressey Bucks, Hakeen and Sampson Rockets, Dominique and the Hawks, etc.  Who else can say the same?  The Kareem/Magic group may have been the team of the 80s but Bird beat everybody during his time.  Pretty incredible achievement.  Another video on one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  I thought of Iceman, Pistol Pete, McGrady (with that one playoff game exception!), Bernard King, Karl Malone, Lebron*, Wilt, etc.   Great players but not on the same tier as MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem who just found ways to  get it done even with the game on the line.  One of the videos showed clip after clip of Bird hitting game winners. Another showed interviews and Dominique talked about Bird hitting clutch shot after clutch shot for an entire 4th quarter because without any of them, the Hawks would have won the game.  True clutch.

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.  On one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  It reiterates what was missing from Lebron for half his career.

5B.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. Like with Magic and Bird, I struggle to pick one over the other in their order on my all-time list, so for now, I have them both at #5.

7.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it with bad FG% and horrible FT% but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game. He was also a tremendous athlete.  High jumped nearly 7' without doing the Fosbury flop. Ranked #7 in the world at the time.  Amazing.

7b.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list. Still, for about 6 years after MJ's '98 season, Shaq was THE player in the NBA. He was also top 3 behind MJ and Hakeem from '94-'98.   I watch/listen to videos of interviews with players of the era and they say once Shaq got the ball within 8 feet of the goal, you could do nothing.  Amazing.

7c.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win.....  I would take Shaq over Tim, but Tim's winning, team concept, and incredibleness at the position allow him to be equal to Shaq in my ranking.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. I believe the 1969 Lakers were truly great with West, Baylor, Wilt, and company. They lost game 4 by one point.  Go look at how many free shots Wilt missed in that game.  I have watched the game and his FT shooting was atrocious.  Part of greatness is coming up clutch in the big games, in the big moments.  Wilt is great, an all-time great, but drops to #9 due to this part. Similar to Lebron dropping to 5 on my list.   But, he was unreal talented, he did win titles, and helped lead the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete. Had he come up big in those finals vs. the Celtics and Knicks, he is probably top 3.  Still:  #9.

10.  Dr. J - His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 3 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs and two finals MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal. Dr. J thinks he was the best all-around player in the game.  Hard to know just how good he was.  Numbers don't tell the whole story. But, the Celtics did prevent him from winning titles, so he moves down the list.  Still in my top 10!*



13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. West
17. Wade
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. Curry
21. David Robinson
22. Havlicek
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Bob Pettit/Mikan

Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale, Pierce, Zeke, DJ, among others are spectacular honorable mentions.

So, ESPN has their top 74, The MJ "documentary" has been shown.  Let's see how your rankings look now.  Any changes to your thinking after reading/watching new stuff?
Reasons for changes?   I know I moved Jerry West and Kobe just a little.  I watched some full-game videos on YouTube of West against those Celtics and Knicks back in the day.  There is a reason he is the image.  The man could play.  I still put Oscar Robertson above him due to all-around game, I have Wilt and Russell ahead of him because Russell's teams always beat West's teams and Wilt, well, just because he is Wilt and dominated games. But, during these interviews, videos, productions, etc., I realize that West truly was/is an all-time great.  I saw one where they asked greats this question:  Which all-time great is left out of most top 10s or is most underrated?   Hakeem Olajuwon, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dominique Wilkins, and Jerry West seemed to be the top five from the interviews.  Who are yours?   Just some interesting stuff to me.  I think Moses Malone is the most overlooked.   The others may be underrated, but Moses often gets left out completely.  Then Dan Issel....  Lunchtime thoughts.

Lakers have been my team since acquiring Kareem back in the 70s.  I got to enjoy his excellence, followed by the Showtime Lakers of Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and company, then the Shaq/Kobe era, and then the Kobe show (yes, there was a bad streak after Kobe).  Now on the brink of another title.  Even though I have not watched the NBA for awhile now, I am still a Lakers fan and read about them.  Hoping we can move into a tie for all-time championships with our rival Celtics.   Do Covid-shortened seasons, playing without hostile crowds, and the like change the fact that they played for the title again and if they win it all, does it get any type of asterisk?   I read about Pippen's comments on the bubble title.  Anybody out there still watching? 

As a side note, although it does not move Lebron up my list, it strengthens his position and gets him closer to being number 3 all time.  If he wins this year, then one more title after this year and he moves ahead of Magic and Bird on my list.  I would still take either of them ahead if picking a team but Lebron's entire body of work will have surpassed theirs in my opinion.  This last half of his career has been pretty dominant.

Quote from: RATTLER43 on October 07, 2020, 07:14:38 am
Lakers have been my team since acquiring Kareem back in the 70s.  I got to enjoy his excellence, followed by the Showtime Lakers of Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and company, then the Shaq/Kobe era, and then the Kobe show (yes, there was a bad streak after Kobe).  Now on the brink of another title.  Even though I have not watched the NBA for awhile now, I am still a Lakers fan and read about them.  Hoping we can move into a tie for all-time championships with our rival Celtics.   Do Covid-shortened seasons, playing without hostile crowds, and the like change the fact that they played for the title again and if they win it all, does it get any type of asterisk?   I read about Pippen's comments on the bubble title.  Anybody out there still watching? 

As a side note, although it does not move Lebron up my list, it strengthens his position and gets him closer to being number 3 all time.  If he wins this year, then one more title after this year and he moves ahead of Magic and Bird on my list.  I would still take either of them ahead if picking a team but Lebron's entire body of work will have surpassed theirs in my opinion.  This last half of his career has been pretty dominant.

Here is why I won't put an asterik behind this title....

1)They dominated every team, if they win the next game they will have won every series in 5 games, no one even took them to 6 or 7 games. Even great Bulls, Kobe/Shaq 2000s Lakers, Spurs, and Warriors teams of the last 25 years were taken to 6/7 game series

2)they would have had home court in every one of these series so playing in a bubble actually took away an advantage the Lakers had. Had the Lakers been a 3 or 4 seed and made it on neutral courts I even would have questioned would they have won three series in a row with the other team having home court? But they owned the regular season in the West too

3)Anthony Davis is the best player Lebron has every played with and that says something cause he played with D Wade although Wade was not the same his last 2 years in Miami with him. Now young D Wade was special.... in reality I am not sure Lebron is even the best player on his team anymore. Kind of hard to guard a 7'0" or 7'1" Anthony Davis who is built like a bronze statue and can move and shoot three pointers when needed even. No one would have been stopping Davis whether its in a bubble or at home courts.



This makes 4 titles for Lebron. At his age I think maybe one more is on the table, 6 might be hard to get unless the Lakers get one more piece and Lebron alters his role. I think Lebron only has one, maybe two more elite years in him and then father time has to take over you would think where he either has to retire or take a back seat a little bit.

Lakers have been my team since I was about six years old. I want them to win this year, obviously.

However, you'd never see the likes of Jordan, Bryan, Bird, etc. walk off the court with close to 20 seconds remaining like LeBron did a few nights ago. That's not GOAT material.

Quote from: VHSCoach2 on October 07, 2020, 08:21:37 am
Lakers have been my team since I was about six years old. I want them to win this year, obviously.

However, you'd never see the likes of Jordan, Bryan, Bird, etc. walk off the court with close to 20 seconds remaining like LeBron did a few nights ago. That's not GOAT material.

I've literally witnessed players do that all the time walk off with a few seconds left in the game across different sports... We just live in the day in age of social media where we make something out of nothing. How does that have anything to do with his actual play on the court? Off course he isn't at MJ level, but that has nothing to do with his career on the court. No professional is a good loser, including players of the past

Quote from: RATTLER43 on May 18, 2020, 01:45:50 pm
I saw one where they asked greats this question:  Which all-time great is left out of most top 10s or is most underrated?   Hakeem Olajuwon, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Dominique Wilkins, and Jerry West seemed to be the top five from the interviews.  Who are yours?

I would agree with this.  Hakeem was the most athletic big man I've seen play.  I'm not old enough to have seen Wilt, but Olajuwon's array of post moves coupled with his ability to run the floor was unmatched in his prime.  And 'Nique was my favorite player growing up.  His game reminded me a lot of Dr. J.  He could get to the rim seemingly at will, and as his career progressed he developed a decent mid-range and perimeter game.  Unfotunately, the East was so good throughout his career he was always matched up in the postseason against the Celtics, Bulls, or Pistons, and the Hawks never had the depth of talent of those teams.

To the question at hand - one player I never really see mentioned in these lists is Clyde Drexler.  It seems every member of the Dream Team (minus Laettner of course) gets mentioned in every top-25 list except Drexler.  He was another in the mold of Erving and Wilkins offensively, and was also a really good defender.

Quote from: beach bum on October 07, 2020, 08:46:24 am
I've literally witnessed players do that all the time walk off with a few seconds left in the game across different sports... We just live in the day in age of social media where we make something out of nothing. How does that have anything to do with his actual play on the court? Off course he isn't at MJ level, but that has nothing to do with his career on the court. No professional is a good loser, including players of the past

Agree. The game was over and it's not like the series was over. Remember when the Pistons walked off the court as the series ended in the '91 ECF? Now that was something worth getting upset for.

Not LeBron walking off after Game 3 in the bubble in a game they had no chance of coming back and winning. It's just people look for anything they can to nitpick him and denigrate him because he is a threat to MJ's legacy and GOAT status.

He was the first true social media sports superstar and therefore he bore the responsibility of that. He's handled it about as well as anyone could have. Obviously he'd probably go back and do some stuff differently, mainly with 'The Decision.'

Quote from: beach bum on October 07, 2020, 08:16:33 am
Here is why I won't put an asterik behind this title....

1)They dominated every team, if they win the next game they will have won every series in 5 games, no one even took them to 6 or 7 games. Even great Bulls, Kobe/Shaq 2000s Lakers, Spurs, and Warriors teams of the last 25 years were taken to 6/7 game series    Agreed

2)they would have had home court in every one of these series so playing in a bubble actually took away an advantage the Lakers had. Had the Lakers been a 3 or 4 seed and made it on neutral courts I even would have questioned would they have won three series in a row with the other team having home court? But they owned the regular season in the West too   I believe it is different, but it is the same different for everyone; it is not less than any other titles.  Great teams/players going after it.  I do hate not having hostile crowds, but that does not take away from teams having to keep winning series.

3)Anthony Davis is the best player Lebron has every played with and that says something cause he played with D Wade although Wade was not the same his last 2 years in Miami with him. Now young D Wade was special.... in reality I am not sure Lebron is even the best player on his team anymore. Kind of hard to guard a 7'0" or 7'1" Anthony Davis who is built like a bronze statue and can move and shoot three pointers when needed even. No one would have been stopping Davis whether its in a bubble or at home courts.  Davis is great.  I still think Lebron is the best player on the team.  But what a 1-2 combo.



This makes 4 titles for Lebron. At his age I think maybe one more is on the table, 6 might be hard to get unless the Lakers get one more piece and Lebron alters his role. I think Lebron only has one, maybe two more elite years in him and then father time has to take over you would think where he either has to retire or take a back seat a little bit.

If he gets 6, I may have a 1A, 1B, and 1C.   
Kind of like at QB, I have Brady, Staubach, Montana, and Graham.   Brady and Staubach seemed to live in Conference Championships and Super Bowls for half their respective careers (Graham in championships all the time too); Montana being 4-0 is awesome, but he didn't live their as much (5 out of 16 seasons I believe). It doesn't take away from the greatness of Montana, he is on my Mt. Rushmore of QBs, but I have him #3.     Even if LeBron wins 6, it will be difficult for me to move him ahead of MJ or Kareem.  If he gets 7, then ....... 

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on October 07, 2020, 08:49:40 am
I would agree with this.  Hakeem was the most athletic big man I've seen play.  I'm not old enough to have seen Wilt, but Olajuwon's array of post moves coupled with his ability to run the floor was unmatched in his prime.  And 'Nique was my favorite player growing up.  His game reminded me a lot of Dr. J.  He could get to the rim seemingly at will, and as his career progressed he developed a decent mid-range and perimeter game.  Unfotunately, the East was so good throughout his career he was always matched up in the postseason against the Celtics, Bulls, or Pistons, and the Hawks never had the depth of talent of those teams.

To the question at hand - one player I never really see mentioned in these lists is Clyde Drexler.  It seems every member of the Dream Team (minus Laettner of course) gets mentioned in every top-25 list except Drexler.  He was another in the mold of Erving and Wilkins offensively, and was also a really good defender.

I agree to a degree.  I believe Bird, Magic, and MJ kept Drexler and Nique from getting titles.  This alone moves them down the lists.   Drexler was as good an athlete and player, but could not will his team to a title.  Wilkins, like you mentioned, just didn't have the supporting cast to beat the Cs and Pistons.   Dr. J got to and won many championships.  That sets him apart for me.

I do not care how many titles LeBron ends up winning. Jordan will always be the goat imo. In an era of super teams, nonexistent defense, and Lebron's passive mindset in the past...not even comparable. He's top 5 for sure, maybe even #2, but even at 2 there's a substantial gap between him and the goat. And I wasn't even a fan of Jordan's. But 6-0 in finals. What else needs to be said?

Quote from: Walter s on October 12, 2020, 08:58:22 am
I do not care how many titles LeBron ends up winning. Jordan will always be the goat imo. In an era of super teams, nonexistent defense, and Lebron's passive mindset in the past...not even comparable. He's top 5 for sure, maybe even #2, but even at 2 there's a substantial gap between him and the goat. And I wasn't even a fan of Jordan's. But 6-0 in finals. What else needs to be said?

While I agree with much of what you typed, it is worth repeating that I have Kareem in a head to head battle for #1 all time.  I put MJ 1A because he could create and Kareem had to have someone get him the ball.   I have Lebron solidly at my #5A for now.   Lacking that "it" quality (passive when he should have taken over games for the first half of his career) is what keeps him behind a few of my all time greats.  Many people have quit watching the NBA but Lebron has stepped up his game in 6 of the last 7 seasons.  But those 6 dominant seasons cannot supplant MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Kobe in my opinion.  But he still has plenty of gas in the tank.  He may actually make it to #2.  If so, the gap won't be as big as some think.  I would still take a healthy and prime MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, or Kobe over any age Lebron for now.   I hope that rambling made some sense.

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."      In some of the YouTube videos, loads of analysts believe Bird is at the top of the list. One not so scientific video discusses that Bird beat more all-time greats than any other player:  (everything listed in the next few lines comes from the video; you need to verify) beat MJ in two playoff sweeps so he owned Jordan, beat Kareem in the 84 NBA championship, beat Magic and Worthy in that same title run, Beat the Dr. J and Moses Malone (plus Barkley later on) Sixers multiple times, beat the Zeke/Dumars/Bad Boys Pistons, beat Moncrief, Johnson, Lanier, Pressey Bucks, Hakeen and Sampson Rockets, Dominique and the Hawks, etc.  Who else can say the same?  The Kareem/Magic group may have been the team of the 80s but Bird beat everybody during his time.  Pretty incredible achievement.  Another video on one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  I thought of Iceman, Pistol Pete, McGrady (with that one playoff game exception!), Bernard King, Karl Malone, Lebron*, Wilt, etc.   Great players but not on the same tier as MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem who just found ways to  get it done even with the game on the line.  One of the videos showed clip after clip of Bird hitting game winners. Another showed interviews and Dominique talked about Bird hitting clutch shot after clutch shot for an entire 4th quarter because without any of them, the Hawks would have won the game.  True clutch.

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.  On one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  It reiterates what was missing from Lebron for half his career.

5B.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. Like with Magic and Bird, I struggle to pick one over the other in their order on my all-time list, so for now, I have them both at #5.

tough one but in my lifetime

Jordan
Kidd
Duncan
Lebron
Penny
Kobe
Nash
Manu
Wade
Iverson

I like your modern list. I think Shaq has to be there somewhere. 

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Worthy, The Chief, Sikma, Issel, Bill Walton, and many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."      In some of the YouTube videos, loads of analysts believe Bird is at the top of the list. One not so scientific video discusses that Bird beat more all-time greats than any other player:  (everything listed in the next few lines comes from the video; you need to verify) beat MJ in two playoff sweeps so he owned Jordan, beat Kareem in the 84 NBA championship, beat Magic and Worthy in that same title run, Beat the Dr. J and Moses Malone (plus Barkley later on) Sixers multiple times, beat the Zeke/Dumars/Bad Boys Pistons, beat Moncrief, Johnson, Lanier, Pressey Bucks, Hakeen and Sampson Rockets, Dominique and the Hawks, etc.  Who else can say the same?  The Kareem/Magic group may have been the team of the 80s but Bird beat everybody during his time.  Pretty incredible achievement.  Another video on one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  I thought of Iceman, Pistol Pete, McGrady (with that one playoff game exception!), Bernard King, Karl Malone, Lebron*, Wilt, etc.   Great players but not on the same tier as MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem who just found ways to  get it done even with the game on the line.  One of the videos showed clip after clip of Bird hitting game winners. Another showed interviews and Dominique talked about Bird hitting clutch shot after clutch shot for an entire 4th quarter because without any of them, the Hawks would have won the game.  True clutch.

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.  On one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  It reiterates what was missing from Lebron for half his career.

5B.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. Like with Magic and Bird, I struggle to pick one over the other in their order on my all-time list, so for now, I have them both at #5.

7.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it with bad FG% and horrible FT% but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game. He was also a tremendous athlete.  High jumped nearly 7' without doing the Fosbury flop. Ranked #7 in the world at the time.  Amazing.

7b.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list. Still, for about 6 years after MJ's '98 season, Shaq was THE player in the NBA. He was also top 3 behind MJ and Hakeem from '94-'98.   I watch/listen to videos of interviews with players of the era and they say once Shaq got the ball within 8 feet of the goal, you could do nothing.  Amazing.

7c.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win.....  I would take Shaq over Tim, but Tim's winning, team concept, and incredibleness at the position allow him to be equal to Shaq in my ranking.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. I believe the 1969 Lakers were truly great with West, Baylor, Wilt, and company. They lost game 4 by one point.  Go look at how many free shots Wilt missed in that game.  I have watched the game and his FT shooting was atrocious.  Part of greatness is coming up clutch in the big games, in the big moments.  Wilt is great, an all-time great, but drops to #9 due to this part. Similar to Lebron dropping to 5 on my list.   But, he was unreal talented, he did win titles, and helped lead the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete. Had he come up big in those finals vs. the Celtics and Knicks, he is probably top 3.  Still:  #9.

10.  Dr. J - His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 3 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs and two finals MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal. Dr. J thinks he was the best all-around player in the game.  Hard to know just how good he was.  Numbers don't tell the whole story. But, the Celtics did prevent him from winning titles, so he moves down the list.  Still in my top 10!*



13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. West
17. Wade
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. Curry
21. David Robinson
22. Havlicek
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Bob Pettit/Mikan

Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale, Pierce, Zeke, DJ, among others are spectacular honorable mentions.

[/quote]

Quote from: RATTLER43 on December 06, 2020, 04:55:13 pmI like your modern list. I think Shaq has to be there somewhere. 

1. Michael Jordan - greatest all around player ever. By year 5, he had no weaknesses; even his 3-pt. shot had gotten good. His mid-range jumper and baseline post up fade-away was soooooo good. Killer instinct of Bird and Magic; athleticism of Dr. J, Russell Westbrook, and Kawhi; skills of Maravich, Kobe, and Lebron.   At his best in big games and situations.   6-0 in finals after climbing past Zeke's Bad Boys, the Cs, and Magic's Lakers.   Hit big shots throughout career.  At his best in clutch games (even in losses, he was sensational; ie:  63 vs. Boston in one game!).   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; ..." - Pat Riley    I could put in quotes of all the folks who have MJ as the GOAT, but no need; we all know it.

1B. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - had he been a media darling instead of rubbing every sportswriter the wrong way he would be at the top of every list; he was the most dominating player ever. I put MJ over him because MJ could create his own shot.  Kareem needed a guard to get him the ball. Kareem was the best on both ends of the floor for 10 seasons. Nobody could competently defend him. Kareem was unstoppable once he got the ball.  Stats are astronomical.  MVPs awards aplenty. Championships are there at every level. Wooden puts Kareem at the top. Dr. J puts Kareem at the top.  Worthy, The Chief, Sikma, Issel, Bill Walton, and many others do as well.   

3. Magic Johnson  and Larry Bird are interchangeable. I put Magic at 3 because he won more titles than Larry Bird. Otherwise, you could put either of them at 3. Magic was so diverse at 6'9" PG. He would post up smaller PGs and developed outside shot and could go by the larger ones. His leadership and incredible desire to win was intangible that puts him at top of PG list. He was great in transition.   Said Bird was the only player he feared.  Food for thought:  had Bird's career not been at the same time as Magic's, he might have 8 titles.  Pure winner here.  Winning goes a long way in my evaluations.

3B. Larry Bird - skills were unreal and he was so clutch. His determination equalled Magic's and MJ's. Bird seemed to think the game so that he knew what he and all others on the floor on both teams were going to do before they even did it. On multiple occasions I have watched a sequence where he knew he could not get the offensive rebound but knew where the rebounder would put the ball after securing; then Bird would steal it and throw to a spot on the floor where he knew his teammate would be without even looking leading to an easy score.   He is my top clutch player ever.  Great at every phase of the game, killer instinct, and highest basketball IQ (was 6-0 versus MJ in playoff games*  yes, I know he had the better supporting cast and that MJ poured in 63 in one of those games ...).  Jerry West, the NBA image, said, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."  Others have chimed in as well: "Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy (who played with Bill Russell and against Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain):   "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."   Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson , "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood . "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden . "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."      In some of the YouTube videos, loads of analysts believe Bird is at the top of the list. One not so scientific video discusses that Bird beat more all-time greats than any other player:  (everything listed in the next few lines comes from the video; you need to verify) beat MJ in two playoff sweeps so he owned Jordan, beat Kareem in the 84 NBA championship, beat Magic and Worthy in that same title run, Beat the Dr. J and Moses Malone (plus Barkley later on) Sixers multiple times, beat the Zeke/Dumars/Bad Boys Pistons, beat Moncrief, Johnson, Lanier, Pressey Bucks, Hakeen and Sampson Rockets, Dominique and the Hawks, etc.  Who else can say the same?  The Kareem/Magic group may have been the team of the 80s but Bird beat everybody during his time.  Pretty incredible achievement.  Another video on one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  I thought of Iceman, Pistol Pete, McGrady (with that one playoff game exception!), Bernard King, Karl Malone, Lebron*, Wilt, etc.   Great players but not on the same tier as MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem who just found ways to  get it done even with the game on the line.  One of the videos showed clip after clip of Bird hitting game winners. Another showed interviews and Dominique talked about Bird hitting clutch shot after clutch shot for an entire 4th quarter because without any of them, the Hawks would have won the game.  True clutch.

There is a very real possibility that had Bird not gotten so injured and had a long career, he might be #1 all time.

It is that longevity thing again.  But, ifs don't play into this ranking, so he sits at a tie for #3 based upon his body of work.   "If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley     





5.  Lebron James - greatest physical specimen the game has seen; he also can absolutely carry a team. I think his skill plus athleticism has potential to be at the top of this list. Win a few more titles and it may happen. But I think the thing that keeps him at anywhere between #3 and #5 is his lack of killer instinct.  Dominate a team, any team, for 3 quarters then often disappear in crunch time for much of career.  The ability to make great plays and will his team back from the deficit against the Warriors a few years ago moves him up into the top 5.  Had he played like that his entire career, who knows how high on this list he would be with his ability to fill a stat sheet and his winning percentage over the years.  On one of the videos I watched, they interviewed Larry Bird back in the day. He said there have been lots of scorers over the years, players who for three quarters can put up points. But in the clutch, in crunch time, the greats want the ball and tend to find a way to come through.  It reiterates what was missing from Lebron for half his career.  Unfortunately, Lebron seemed to revert back to old form when AD got hurt during regular season and then again in playoffs.   He is in the elite for all time but that "it" factor will never be at the level of those above him on this list.  He actually looked lost in that series.  This coming on the heels of last year's title has a bad look going forward.  Healthy AD has Lakers in the mix.  Injured AD and the Lakers are average at best even with all that talent.

5B.  Kobe Bryant - such a  fundamental player. Great athlete early; great player later. His offensive weapons are so numerous. Can score from any place on floor. Great defender as well.  To win a championship, I believe I would take Kobe over Lebron but Lebron's body of work is slightly better in my opinion.  But at his zenith, MJ and Bird thought Kobe was the best since MJ. Like with Magic and Bird, I struggle to pick one over the other in their order on my all-time list, so for now, I have them both at #5.

7.  Bill Russell - greatest champion ever. Defensive stalwart; great passer and ferocious defender. Offense had some chinks in it with bad FG% and horrible FT% but you can't argue 11 titles.  Most old-timers pay homage to Russell. Had that "it" quality. He was there to win.  Not to score the most points, not to get the most rebounds, not to do anything but whatever it takes to win the game. He was also a tremendous athlete.  High jumped nearly 7' without doing the Fosbury flop. Ranked #7 in the world at the time.  Amazing.

7b.  Shaq - most unstoppable player ever. I really think he could have shot free shots on nearly every possession in his first 10 seasons(of course he would have missed most of them.). His lack of all-around game and atrocious free shot shooting move him down the list. Still, for about 6 years after MJ's '98 season, Shaq was THE player in the NBA. He was also top 3 behind MJ and Hakeem from '94-'98.   I watch/listen to videos of interviews with players of the era and they say once Shaq got the ball within 8 feet of the goal, you could do nothing.  Amazing.

7c.  Tim Duncan - I actually would take Tim over Wilt or Russell but it may be because they were before my time. I tried to leave my personal bias out and going by the numbers and my readings about them I allowed them to be placed accordingly. Tim was great at every phase of the post game and his bank shot from 17 feet was so tough on big slow power forwards trying to defend him. His footwork and defensive presence are so underappreciated. Just think if his nearly last second shot that Derek Fisher answered had been the game-winner and they had gone on to win.....  I would take Shaq over Tim, but Tim's winning, team concept, and incredibleness at the position allow him to be equal to Shaq in my ranking.

9.  Wilt Chamberlain - greatest scorer ever- period. Free shot shooting and lack of killer instinct moves him down the list. I believe the 1969 Lakers were truly great with West, Baylor, Wilt, and company. They lost game 4 by one point.  Go look at how many free shots Wilt missed in that game.  I have watched the game and his FT shooting was atrocious.  Part of greatness is coming up clutch in the big games, in the big moments.  Wilt is great, an all-time great, but drops to #9 due to this part. Similar to Lebron dropping to 5 on my list.   But, he was unreal talented, he did win titles, and helped lead the Lakers to the then-best record ever.  What an athlete. Had he come up big in those finals vs. the Celtics and Knicks, he is probably top 3.  Still:  #9.

10.  Dr. J - His NBA career numbers do not do this great one justice. If you add his ABA days when he was at his athletic best he might be as high as #3.  By the time I got to watch him he was still great but not scoring at will above everybody any time he wanted. He was still the most athletic and gifted scorer in mid and late 70s. I have watched video of him while in ABA and I believe all those stories. 3 championships plus lost in 3 finals; 4 MVPs and two finals MVPs.   After watching a Bill Simmons blog/interview, I confirm my belief that he could be as high as #3 on this list.  What he lacked in ball-handling and outside shooting (which were fine but not exceptional) he made up for with sheer brilliance, athleticism, and will to win.  He was an elite scorer who was next to impossible to stop in transition or drives.  The longevity rule with an asterisk applies here.  He had a long illustrious career, but his early years were in the ABA, so evaluating him is difficult.  I keep him at 10th but know he might have been even better.     He believes Kareem is the greatest player ever.

10B. Oscar Robertson  Averaging basically a triple-double over 5 seasons and helping Kareem to first title are just the tip of this iceberg.  Was so athletically gifted that he would be great in any era.  His strength and leaping ability for a PG was unreal.  Just kind of hard to understand just how good this man was in an era dominated by Russell and Wilt.  John Wooden thought that Big O was the best all-around player (Kareem being the greatest player due to his dominance) until Larry Bird came around. High praise from a basketball immortal. Dr. J thinks he was the best all-around player in the game.  Hard to know just how good he was.  Numbers don't tell the whole story. But, the Celtics did prevent him from winning titles, so he moves down the list.  Still in my top 10!*



13. Hakeem
14. Moses Malone
15. Durant
16. West
17. Wade
18. Barkley
19. Pippen
20. Curry
21. David Robinson
22. Havlicek
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Bob Pettit/Mikan

Baylor, Garnett, Barry, Stockton, Gervin, Hayes, Worthy, McHale, Pierce, Zeke, DJ, among others are spectacular honorable mentions.

Can Chris Paul move up the list with a finals appearance?  Can KD inch his way toward top 12 all time with another championship.  Did Steph move up the list with his stellar stats, stay about in the same place due to team failure, or move down because he couldn't advance them in the playoffs?  If Kawhi gets another title, does he move into top 20?  Where does James Hardin go if they win a title.  Lots of all time greats playing for their legacies right now.