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Maxpreps Rankings

Started by WillC, March 14, 2017, 09:00:12 pm

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WillC

I came across these and thought they were interesting. I don't plan on putting much stock in them, though. Hot Springs is definitely not bad, but the best in the state and 22 in the country? I've seen them and others play, and I don't buy it.

Buck183

March 14, 2017, 09:50:30 pm #1 Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:01:01 pm by Buck183
Their rankings are based off win/loss record and nothing more. Hard to put value in a record that's .800 or above when a school doesn't really play anyone. 

Great example. We went into the playoffs last year ranked 24th in the state.  We had a bye the first round. The team we played in the second round was ranked 15th. We beat them 7-1.  The team we played in the semis was ranked 12th in the state.  We beat them 6-0.  That baffled me. After the playoffs I did some studying and realized strength of schedule was drastically different. They basically had more overall wins than we did, nothing more. 

EDIT...having said all that, I'm now wondering if they didn't change their rankings after looking at them just now.  I do see a "strength" column that I don't remember seeing last year.  Don't know if that means strength of schedule or not.  Would be interested to know.

mijally

Ranking score cards favor teams that score in all sports. Football, basketball, and soccer. Margin of victory means something. Look at the teams that score and rank high in Ar sports. PA in football. Jonesboro in basketball.  Hot Springs scores goals and goals win games. They are as good as the rankings say. I buy it.

WillC

That's what I was thinking. The rankings are a bit all over the place.

Buck183


WillC

March 15, 2017, 01:29:54 am #5 Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 01:46:24 am by WillC
Quote from: mijally on March 14, 2017, 10:00:04 pm
Ranking score cards favor teams that score in all sports. Football, basketball, and soccer. Margin of victory means something. Look at the teams that score and rank high in Ar sports. PA in football. Jonesboro in basketball.  Hot Springs scores goals and goals win games. They are as good as the rankings say. I buy it.

So they're number one for running up the score on pretty awful teams? If that's the case, then Rogers Heritage must be twice as better, because they beat Robinson 13-0 compared to Hot Springs' 6-0. Beating a stronger team 2-0 is more impressive than beating a weaker team 6-0. I have seen HS play, and they're pretty good. I would say they finish 4th or 5th in the 7A west. They beat BV West twice, split Van Buren and Fayetteville, and win once or maybe twice the rest of the way. Springdale and Har-Ber would make quick work of them. I think CAC, Northside, Dardanelle, Russellville, Siloam Springs, Valley View, and Catholic are also better. Top ten, you could make a case. Number one, not a chance.

EDIT: They did beat Dardanelle, and results count, but I do believe they were the better team.

WillC

Quote from: Buck183 on March 14, 2017, 09:50:30 pm
Their rankings are based off win/loss record and nothing more. Hard to put value in a record that's .800 or above when a school doesn't really play anyone. 

Great example. We went into the playoffs last year ranked 24th in the state.  We had a bye the first round. The team we played in the second round was ranked 15th. We beat them 7-1.  The team we played in the semis was ranked 12th in the state.  We beat them 6-0.  That baffled me. After the playoffs I did some studying and realized strength of schedule was drastically different. They basically had more overall wins than we did, nothing more. 

EDIT...having said all that, I'm now wondering if they didn't change their rankings after looking at them just now.  I do see a "strength" column that I don't remember seeing last year.  Don't know if that means strength of schedule or not.  Would be interested to know.

I'm not sure how much the strength helps. For example, Van Buren has a nearly identical record with BV West, but a much stronger schedule and a head-to-head win. West is still ranked higher.

mijally

Some of the better 7a teams have not played enough games yet to be ranked. Just wait. They will start leveling out.

Buck183

Quote from: mijally on March 15, 2017, 08:52:26 am
Some of the better 7a teams have not played enough games yet to be ranked. Just wait. They will start leveling out.

I noticed Bentonville girls weren't ranked yet due to that.  I know of at least three games they've played that aren't showing on Maxpreps at all. Surely they will be ranked in the top 5 when they finally get thrown in the mix.


Ladyfan

Quote from: Buck183 on March 15, 2017, 10:09:13 am
I noticed Bentonville girls weren't ranked yet due to that.  I know of at least three games they've played that aren't showing on Maxpreps at all. Surely they will be ranked in the top 5 when they finally get thrown in the mix.

What is that magic number of games to be included in these "rankings". Anyone know?

WillC

March 15, 2017, 11:15:00 am #10 Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:00:35 pm by WillC
Quote from: Ladyfan on March 15, 2017, 10:21:00 am
What is that magic number of games to be included in these "rankings". Anyone know?

Not sure. It all seems like a crap shoot to me. There aren't 13 teams in Arkansas better than Har-Ber, and I think we can all agree on that.

jimmyt

Quote from: WillC on March 15, 2017, 01:29:54 am
So they're number one for running up the score on pretty awful teams? If that's the case, then Rogers Heritage must be twice as better, because they beat Robinson 13-0 compared to Hot Springs' 6-0. Beating a stronger team 2-0 is more impressive than beating a weaker team 6-0. I have seen HS play, and they're pretty good. I would say they finish 4th or 5th in the 7A west. They beat BV West twice, split Van Buren and Fayetteville, and win once or maybe twice the rest of the way. Springdale and Har-Ber would make quick work of them. I think CAC, Northside, Dardanelle, Russellville, Siloam Springs, Valley View, and Catholic are also better. Top ten, you could make a case. Number one, not a chance.

EDIT: They did beat Dardanelle, and results count, but I do believe they were the better team.

They may not be #1 in the state overall but I'd be willing to bet they are better than CAC and Northside. Your opinion doesn't matter about the Dardanelle game.. The score is the only thing that matters. Hot Springs is a top 5 or 6 team in the state. While you do make some good points, you seem a little biased.. Where are you from?

Buck183

Quote from: Ladyfan on March 15, 2017, 10:21:00 am
What is that magic number of games to be included in these "rankings". Anyone know?

Good question.  They did not show a ranking for either of our teams until we had 9 games logged in their system.  I don't know if that's the magic number or not. 

WillC

March 15, 2017, 01:52:33 pm #13 Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:13:07 pm by WillC
Quote from: jimmyt on March 15, 2017, 12:31:58 pm
They may not be #1 in the state overall but I'd be willing to bet they are better than CAC and Northside. Your opinion doesn't matter about the Dardanelle game.. The score is the only thing that matters. Hot Springs is a top 5 or 6 team in the state. While you do make some good points, you seem a little biased.. Where are you from?

I am from none of the cities I've mentioned.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot I did mention it. I'm from Van Buren, and have no connection to the teams I mentioned, nor animosity for Hot Springs. I think they're a great team and I had a great time watching them. I just have a hard time believing they're the best team in the state.

VHSCoach2

March 15, 2017, 01:57:33 pm #14 Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 05:40:11 pm by VHSCoach2
Quote from: Ladyfan on March 15, 2017, 10:21:00 am
What is that magic number of games to be included in these "rankings". Anyone know?

And this is why we need to take these rankings with a grain of salt in my opinion.

It's harder for some teams to find out-of-conference games to fill the allotment of games that we are allowed to play. Other times, coaches simply don't want to fill the allotment. There could be some very good teams that have only played three or four games, but are not ranked by MaxPreps because they have played so few.

WillC

Quote from: jimmyt on March 15, 2017, 12:31:58 pm
They may not be #1 in the state overall but I'd be willing to bet they are better than CAC and Northside. Your opinion doesn't matter about the Dardanelle game.. The score is the only thing that matters. Hot Springs is a top 5 or 6 team in the state. While you do make some good points, you seem a little biased.. Where are you from?

I can concede that you can give HS the benefit of the doubt after beating Dardanelle, but the issue I'm trying to highlight is how we rank teams that have not played each other. Soccer is a different sport than others with regards to comparing results. A 20 point win in basketball is always a blowout. A 3-0 victory in soccer could be a blowout or a relatively close match. We can't know for sure without watching the game itself. For example, I think Hot Springs is definitely better than Conway. However, I would bet on Conway to win because of the way both teams play. It's the nature of the sport.

The Coach

March 15, 2017, 08:10:35 pm #16 Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:16:01 pm by The Coach
Quote from: WillC on March 15, 2017, 02:08:54 pm
I can concede that you can give HS the benefit of the doubt after beating Dardanelle, but the issue I'm trying to highlight is how we rank teams that have not played each other. Soccer is a different sport than others with regards to comparing results. A 20 point win in basketball is always a blowout. A 3-0 victory in soccer could be a blowout or a relatively close match. We can't know for sure without watching the game itself. For example, I think Hot Springs is definitely better than Conway. However, I would bet on Conway to win because of the way both teams play. It's the nature of the sport.

Since the HS vs Dard game keeps getting brought up to justify this ranking, HS won 1-0 and the only goal was from a PK so Dard is just as good as HS. However, neither team I would consider as the best in the state. Top 10-20 maybe so.

Those rankings are funny this early cause Clarksville is ahead of Dardanelle even though Dardanelle beat them 3-1 last wk. Dardanelle tied RSVL 1-1 and also has beaten Warren and Harrison. They also lost to Fayetteville so you never know in soccer how it'll end up.

sevenof400

Clearly these rankings should be taken with a truckload of salt for a variety of reasons but if you'd care to consider state's evidence number two, check out the girls rankings....http://www.maxpreps.com/rankings/girls-soccer-spring/1/state/arkansas.htm

mijally

You can't rank teams until the teams start playing each other more. If you were going to rank a bag of rocks by size you couldn't do it as soon as you pour them out of the bag. You have to compare them to each other first. Give it time.

Jdhelbig

According to the boys rankings on Maxpreps, the #1 team in the state (#22 in the country) Hot Springs, takes on the #22 team in the state DeQueen tonight. This match-up has grown into a rivalry in the 5A Boys South the last couple of years and recently had some amazing games played between the two. It looks like another one is in store for tonight in Hot Springs at 7 p.m.

I believe DeQueen has a great chance to upset Hot Springs tonight. I know, it's weird having DeQueen as an underdog to anyone in the 5A :o

Any other thoughts and/or predictions on this game?

Sir Alex

Quote from: Jdhelbig on March 16, 2017, 11:52:22 am
According to the boys rankings on Maxpreps, the #1 team in the state (#22 in the country) Hot Springs, takes on the #22 team in the state DeQueen tonight. This match-up has grown into a rivalry in the 5A Boys South the last couple of years and recently had some amazing games played between the two. It looks like another one is in store for tonight in Hot Springs at 7 p.m.

I believe DeQueen has a great chance to upset Hot Springs tonight. I know, it's weird having DeQueen as an underdog to anyone in the 5A :o

Any other thoughts and/or predictions on this game?

There are probably a few more threads you can copy and paste this post to. You are passionate about Dequeen. We get it.  For giggles, Hot Springs by one in pk's....

Jdhelbig

Quote from: Sir Alex on March 16, 2017, 01:36:47 pm
There are probably a few more threads you can copy and paste this post to. You are passionate about Dequeen. We get it.  For giggles, Hot Springs by one in pk's....

This forum is for discussion amongst fans/coaches/players throughout Arkansas correct?

Sir Alex

Quote from: Jdhelbig on March 16, 2017, 02:53:18 pm
This forum is for discussion amongst fans/coaches/players throughout Arkansas correct?

Looks like my prediction was correct.  Post it in the most relevant thread and go from there.

ClarksvilleFutbol

March 27, 2017, 10:14:52 pm #23 Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 09:01:45 am by ClarksvilleFutbol
.

MB Hog

Quote from: sevenof400 on March 16, 2017, 08:29:02 am
Clearly these rankings should be taken with a truckload of salt for a variety of reasons but if you'd care to consider state's evidence number two, check out the girls rankings....http://www.maxpreps.com/rankings/girls-soccer-spring/1/state/arkansas.htm
Anyone know how to get a correction on MaxPreps?  It shows the PA girls lost to Lakeside 13-0 the day after beating them 7-0.  Not sure where they got the info, but the 13-0 loss shown here never happened.

Buck183

Quote from: MB Hog on March 28, 2017, 12:51:33 pm
Anyone know how to get a correction on MaxPreps?  It shows the PA girls lost to Lakeside 13-0 the day after beating them 7-0.  Not sure where they got the info, but the 13-0 loss shown here never happened.

I believe you can click on the little envelope below that game and send an email describing the discrepancy. 

MB Hog

Quote from: Buck183 on March 28, 2017, 04:54:09 pm
I believe you can click on the little envelope below that game and send an email describing the discrepancy.
Hmmm - I don't see the envelope.

Buck183

Quote from: MB Hog on March 29, 2017, 02:13:22 pm
Hmmm - I don't see the envelope.

When I go there I can see four blue circles under each game score on my screen.  One is for Facebook, one for Twitter, on for share on Google, and the fourth circle has an envelope in it. 

Are you logged into your account on there when you look?  You may have to be logged in to see said circles and report a score. 

MB Hog

Quote from: Buck183 on March 29, 2017, 03:26:28 pm
When I go there I can see four blue circles under each game score on my screen.  One is for Facebook, one for Twitter, on for share on Google, and the fourth circle has an envelope in it. 

Are you logged into your account on there when you look?  You may have to be logged in to see said circles and report a score.
Yep, I'm logged in and I can see the circles.  But when I click the e-mail icon, it just gives me the chance to send an e-mail to a friend... not to site support.  I think I was able to do something last year like I'm wanting to do now, but I can't find it.  Oh well.  Not that big of a deal.  Thanks anyway.

Buck183

Quote from: MB Hog on March 29, 2017, 03:58:07 pm
Yep, I'm logged in and I can see the circles.  But when I click the e-mail icon, it just gives me the chance to send an e-mail to a friend... not to site support.  I think I was able to do something last year like I'm wanting to do now, but I can't find it.  Oh well.  Not that big of a deal.  Thanks anyway.

To be honest, I just assumed when I clicked on that it was giving me the option to report said score.  I do believe you're right, it's just an option to send that score to someone. 

Apologies for misleading. 

Sir Alex

Pretty sure the coach can go in a delete the game or change the score.

MB Hog

Quote from: Buck183 on March 29, 2017, 08:31:58 pm
To be honest, I just assumed when I clicked on that it was giving me the option to report said score.  I do believe you're right, it's just an option to send that score to someone. 

Apologies for misleading.
No problem, Buck.  I appreciate you trying to help.

Buck183

I have a Maxpreps related question.  Figured it best to ask her versus starting a new thread.

In reading on the AAA website it looks like they have partnered with Maxpreps to help keep track of several different high school sports in Arkansas.  They have gone as far as mandating that all coaches in said sports are required to report scores for every game they play to their respective pages.  It's fairly obvious that not all schools do this.  For that matter, many don't. 

Do we know if there's any fallout or punishment for not adhering to the AAA mandate? 

Arbitro

Quote from: Buck183 on April 18, 2017, 02:22:36 pm
I have a Maxpreps related question.  Figured it best to ask her versus starting a new thread.

In reading on the AAA website it looks like they have partnered with Maxpreps to help keep track of several different high school sports in Arkansas.  They have gone as far as mandating that all coaches in said sports are required to report scores for every game they play to their respective pages.  It's fairly obvious that not all schools do this.  For that matter, many don't. 

Do we know if there's any fallout or punishment for not adhering to the AAA mandate?
From the 2016-2017 AAA Handbook:
QuoteRule 4.  REPORTING SOCCER SCORES.  All scores must be entered on MAXPREPS within 24 hours of the completion of each contest.  A fine of $25 per game may be imposed if the scores are not entered by the deadline.
So AAA may impose a fine, but considering the missing scores I wonder if they actually do.

Buck183

Quote from: Arbitro on April 19, 2017, 08:37:38 am
From the 2016-2017 AAA Handbook:So AAA may impose a fine, but considering the missing scores I wonder if they actually do.

Good catch.  Missed that when reading it.  Would be interesting to see how well this is enforced.  I see schools that have one or two games for the entire season reported and wonder why.  Its not hard to do or anything. 

VHSCoach2

April 19, 2017, 10:14:02 am #35 Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 10:18:49 am by VHSCoach2
Quote from: Buck183 on April 19, 2017, 09:30:40 am
Good catch.  Missed that when reading it.  Would be interesting to see how well this is enforced.  I see schools that have one or two games for the entire season reported and wonder why.  Its not hard to do or anything.

Until a fine is actually handed down, which is what AAA is supposed to do, the school(s) in question will probably continue to do the bare minimum.

Then again, this is AAA we're talking about. If it's not football or basketball, they don't care.

They even have a new Twitter account to report scores to (AAA_Scores). If you don't send a football or basketball score, they won't post it. I, and many other coaches, have tried to send soccer scores for them to post, but they don't do it. Whoever runs the account hasn't tweeted anything since the basketball finals.

Buck183

Quote from: VHSCoach2 on April 19, 2017, 10:14:02 am
Until a fine is actually handed down, which is what AAA is supposed to do, the school(s) in question will probably continue to do the bare minimum.

Then again, this is AAA we're talking about. If it's not football or basketball, they don't care.

They even have a new Twitter account to report scores to (AAA_Scores). If you don't send a football or basketball score, they won't post it. I, and many other coaches, have tried to send soccer scores for them to post, but they don't do it. Whoever runs the account hasn't tweeted anything since the basketball finals.

That's all good to know. 

Valid point about not enforcing this policy given what sport we are talking about. 

hogbert

Assuming the coaches report individual stats? Some I know isn't right, but I figure it's underreported.

Buck183

I'll add a little more on the topic of schools not reporting their scores appropriately when asked to.

I spoke to the AAA about this and asked them why this is not being enforced when they have stated, in writing, that they require this be done or there would be consequences.  I was told the only thing they require be done is a current roster and schedule on each team's page.  Was also told they have never put anything in writing stating that scores must be reported by each program within a certain amount of time or fines would be assessed.  When I asked about what they put on their site saying this I was told they knew nothing about what I speak of.  He was quick to tell me to have a nice day as he hurriedly hung up the phone in obvious disgust about being bothered with such remedial questions.   

VHSCoach2

Quote from: Buck183 on April 30, 2017, 06:00:39 pm
I'll add a little more on the topic of schools not reporting their scores appropriately when asked to.

I spoke to the AAA about this and asked them why this is not being enforced when they have stated, in writing, that they require this be done or there would be consequences.  I was told the only thing they require be done is a current roster and schedule on each team's page.  Was also told they have never put anything in writing stating that scores must be reported by each program within a certain amount of time or fines would be assessed.  When I asked about what they put on their site saying this I was told they knew nothing about what I speak of.  He was quick to tell me to have a nice day as he hurriedly hung up the phone in obvious disgust about being bothered with such remedial questions.

Buck, how dare you try to hold AAA accountable! You scoundrel!

sssuperpantherfan2

They are from the government and are here to take your tax dollars.

Buck183

Quote from: VHSCoach2 on April 30, 2017, 06:46:40 pm
Buck, how dare you try to hold AAA accountable! You scoundrel!

I was obviously not thinking clearly.  Sorry. 

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