"AA" American Legion State Tournament

trojanstick · July 28, 2010, 12:33:26 pm

Just got back from the "AA" state tournament in Harrison. Son played for Lake Hamilton and had an outstanding time this season. All of our player played hard and had an outstanding season.
For those that haven't heard Lake Hamilton was involved in the semi game against Harrison when Harrison tried to enter a player that was not on the lineup card. This was disallowed. So shortly thereafter they changed jerseys so the player and entered him as the pitcher. He threw a pitch which was hit foe a base hit scoring a run. LH then protested him as an illegal player. The ruling was that the player was not illegal. Harrison took him out of the game. Now the fun part they decided it should be a "do over" took the run off the board and brought the kid that got the base hit back to the plate.

The game ended after the top of the 7th LH5 Harrison6. Anyone ever seen a do over in baseball?

Fighting Okra 4Life · July 28, 2010, 06:23:43 pm

It is been oh so long since I have been on these forums. As you know from our conversation earlier today that what you put on this thread is not exactly the way it went down. So, as someone who was very close to the situation, please do think it was "Here goes Harrytown" again or anything like that. It was a administration induced error. And I will leave that alone. The player was inserted into the game with a number from another player after the coaching staff was instructed by Legion State administration to do so. So basically in a nut shell, what we had there was a failure to communicate. Plus the LH coach should have forced the protest before the pitch was thrown. And the big dog state Legion officials should have there phones turned on during these tourneys. No where in "real' baseball is anything list about players ineligable anywhere. Not even on google. I for one apologized to a LH parent about how it went down. I for one am convinced that this would have not of happened if the state offical was not overwhelmed by the situation. Legion needs to have a consistent set of guidelines that are enforced.

trojanstick · July 29, 2010, 09:56:29 am

I did learn much from our conversation. I do appreciate your honesty and integrity. I will leave this alone as I understand it is going up the chain at AL. Also I will say that I don't feel their was a conspiracy from Harrison. I enjoyed our stay in Harrison and the umpires for the games I saw were very good. Just an unfortunate situation in our game and the more Information I get the more I see mistakes were made on all sides.

suspended · August 02, 2010, 12:08:33 pm

Quote from: HackerHog on July 30, 2010, 09:36:02 am
Knowing the rules very important

I don't think I've ever seen a team protest a game while WINNING the game. Then by not knowing the rules, their protest backfired. DOH!

It wasn't like they were dominating the game, it was a one run ballgame when they brought that Taylor kid in and LH protested.

I can't disagree that knowing the rules is important, but not sacrificing your integrity to win is also very important. You can say all you want about rules this and rules that, but forcing kids to switch jerseys after he had been taken out by the umpires? Get real,

trojanstick · August 03, 2010, 01:55:03 pm

It appears if the "rules were followed" the protest should have been denied and the game played on. That would have made it a tie after 7. Wonder who would have won. There were a least 6 experienced baseball people involved in this decision (not to mention the ones that were called) including the protest committee, and no one could get it right. Who knows the rules?

parpar · August 03, 2010, 02:03:43 pm

Got to put a plug in here for NFHS rules. As stated, and then explained in various casebook articles, you don't have to list your subs on your lineup card, it doesn't matter what number the player has on, as long as there are not two of the same, and it's the player's identity, not his uniform number, that matters. Not a huge fan of NFHS rules but these make a lot of sense and could have helped here.

Very simply, if the player was who he said he was and his name was on the eligible roster (as well as meeting all eligibility requirements) it would have been game on.

trojanstick · August 04, 2010, 07:37:13 am

I don't get your logic? Remember we did score a run off him. Maybe we could have scored more. If he was eligible he was eligible. The correct ruling should have been made.

suspended · August 05, 2010, 11:37:50 pm

Quote from: trojanstick on August 04, 2010, 07:37:13 am
I don't get your logic? Remember we did score a run off him. Maybe we could have scored more. If he was eligible he was eligible. The correct ruling should have been made.

Sadly, it wasn't. Lake Hamilton's 6th run should never have been taken away, since the kid was ruled eligible.

goblinmom · August 11, 2010, 09:02:15 pm

Well, maybe you all should have just kept your mouth shut to begin with and the run would have never been taken away. Quit crying about someone not knowing the rules. If your coach had known them to begin with, you might be a state champion.

munz · August 11, 2010, 10:30:21 pm

dear trojanstick you are not alone buddy, the game Harrison played to get to LH was against HeberSprings Oboy ,you talk about home cooking. First the coach for Harrison should have been ejected in the second inning, after an error on the field he held a team meeting in front of the first base dug out(also right in front of the amer. legion rep.)where he proceeded to cuss at his team, using the f word at the top of his coaching voice, public be dang. Then being down 3 in the 6th he pulled the homefield firstbase dugout play to try and sneak a run in. He had a player on 3rd and first, the batter rips a shot down the first base line scoring one,and the runner on first advances to third, and the batter cruises into second. Sounds pretty normal huh, well the part i left out was that when the batter hit the ball down the third base line, the third base dugout cleared onto the field,to block and confuse the play. The player that advanced to 3rd just kinda got mixed up in the crowd of players on the third base line. If it wasn't for the catcher and the pitcher being on their game, and tagging the runner at the plate,it would have worked. No ! nothing was said, no interference warnings, even the legion rep. just got up and walked away. I guess the point is Harrison should'nt be allowed to hold a pop sickle eating tournament. I don't care if the state comissioner does live in Harrison!

trojanstick · August 13, 2010, 07:49:39 am

The more you hear from the Harrison fans the more you realize how classless this bunch is.

Rzback4Life · August 13, 2010, 07:59:03 am

I do not know if the legion coaches for Harrison are the same as the high school coaches but I can tell you the high school coaches are immature and have a lot to learn outside of baseball. The evening during the high school season I had the displeasure of watching them, they were classless and a embarrassment to the Harrison School District. The coaches were openly cursing their team for everyone to hear and their actions on the field almost perpetuated a near riot in the stands. I have been to Harrison numerous times in the past for athletic events and have always enjoyed the great competition and the treatment from the community until this last event. Harrison has a lot to be proud of, perhaps those coaches need to remember that the next time they put those shirts on representing Harrison.

thisandthat · August 14, 2010, 03:29:14 pm

Quote from: munz on August 11, 2010, 10:30:21 pm
dear trojanstick you are not alone buddy, the game Harrison played to get to LH was against HeberSprings Oboy ,you talk about home cooking. First the coach for Harrison should have been ejected in the second inning, after an error on the field he held a team meeting in front of the first base dug out(also right in front of the amer. legion rep.)where he proceeded to cuss at his team, using the f word at the top of his coaching voice, public be dang. Then being down 3 in the 6th he pulled the homefield firstbase dugout play to try and sneak a run in. He had a player on 3rd and first, the batter rips a shot down the first base line scoring one,and the runner on first advances to third, and the batter cruises into second. Sounds pretty normal huh, well the part i left out was that when the batter hit the ball down the third base line, the third base dugout cleared onto the field,to block and confuse the play. The player that advanced to 3rd just kinda got mixed up in the crowd of players on the third base line. If it wasn't for the catcher and the pitcher being on their game, and tagging the runner at the plate,it would have worked. No ! nothing was said, no interference warnings, even the legion rep. just got up and walked away. I guess the point is Harrison should'nt be allowed to hold a pop sickle eating tournament. I don't care if the state comissioner does live in Harrison!

Ah, the Harrison home cooking... The tall ump (head ump) was apparently from Harrison. During the 1st Harrison/Lakeside game, the won LS won 4-1. Lakeside had runners on 2nd & 3rd w/ 1 out and were up 2-0. They did a squeeze, with both runners moving on the pitch. The pitcher fielded the ball and threw to get the batter out at first, during the commotion the runner on 2nd came all the way to score on the same play. Harrison "assistant" coach came out and asked for an appeal that the runner on second missed 3rd base. The home plate ump agreed and said that was the 3rd out and the score was 3-0. Now, how does the home plate ump see the runner from 3rd scoring AND the runner on 2nd touching/missing 3rd base? How is that possible? Is not his 1st responsibility to the play at the plate? I'm saying all this b/c we all saw the runner touch 3rd and I think he just gave harrison that call. LS 1st base coach came down the line to question the call, before he ever got to the home plate ump (tournament chief) he was thrown out.

The explanation given after the game was that only the head coach can talk to the umps.

Yet, Harrison's head and assistant coaches on different occasions both came out at different times to argue calls.

This "Head Ump" was the same guy who was not calling the aformentioned Lake Hamilton/Harrison game, but came out on to the field to stop that game and made the decision to reverse the run scoring for Lake Hamilton and reset the game. How does an ump not involved walk out onto the field in his dress clothes to stop the game and revert the game to an earlier point?

Because it would benefit Harrison.

In addition to all of this, Harrison's Tournament "officials" were not keeping track of the innings pitched by any of the teams. ON the last day the Lakeside and Lake Hamilton coaches had to on their own go and look at the scorebooks to make sure that the innings pitched rules were being upheld. THe rule is 10IP over 3days.

That was the worst run tournament I've ever been to.

parpar · August 15, 2010, 09:02:16 pm

In a two man crew, the plate umpire would be responsible for play at the plate AND the runner going from second to third. The field ump obviously must watch the play at first for the throw,the pulled foot, and interference by the batter-runner. As soon as the pitcher threw the ball to first base, the PU would move his field of vision to third. Obviously, in a squeeze, the runner coming home is almost there when the bunt is laid down, so when the pitcher committed to first, the PU pretty much could quit watching R3 because he would have already scored. And as far "how is that possible" it's called angle over distance.

Hawkeye.243 · August 15, 2010, 10:27:20 pm

Rzback4Life · August 15, 2010, 11:51:58 pm

Hawkeye.243, If you had read my post you would know that I did not make a single comment about your team. Your team is composed of 15 to 18 year old young men and I hope that I never stoop so low to bash any kid on this board. Your immature, bad mouthed coaches are another matter. My wife, my elementry aged son and myself, drove over two hours to watch my older boy play baseball. Everthing was fine the first game of the double header, until we were fortunate enough to win the game. I was very proud of our boys to have won on the road against such a great program that had played in two recent state championship games. We were very young and it was a great win for our program. The second game, the entire atmosphere changed. The coaches from Harrisson began throwing and kicking their hats and were openly cursing their players. A contraversal play occurred on the field and the Harrison coaches actions as a result of that play perpetuated a near riot in the stands. Several of the Harrison fans got involved and were classless with their mouths and their actions. The police were eventually called. I did not drive over two hours with my wife and small child to put up with that crap. If you were there that evening and are proud of how your coaches and SOME fans acted then I feel sorry for you. If you were not there, perhaps it is you who needs to shut his mouth. My post was directed towards your coaches, who have the ultimate responsibility of being examples to their players.

thisandthat · August 16, 2010, 06:44:01 am

Quote from: Hawkeye.243 on August 15, 2010, 10:27:20 pm
@rzback4life....if is a displeasure to watch our team,its simple DON'T WATCH!!!!!!! @thisandthat.....i can resolve this play at 3rd if your willing. You bring $1000.00 and I'll put up $5000.00 We together will watch a tape of that game,where you will clearly see he rounded inside of 3rd by 4ft. Are we really still talking about this,wasn't it over a month ago? So now big boy it's time to put up or shut up...whats it gonna be???

do me a favor post the video to youtube if its that obvious! if you've got the tape, why not post it? Give me the link, since your sooo sure! Whats it gonna be?

WonderBoy17 · August 16, 2010, 07:11:57 am

Well....the police were never called.

Fighting Okra 4Life · August 18, 2010, 11:47:14 am

Let me first state that there was never a riot ever. The police where never called for anything relating to any of the games during the AA State Tourney.

As far as the reason why the the tall umpire came out onto the field to give the protest committees ruling on the player participation situation was because he was the only one who had a set of balls to come out and make a big mistake. Yes he did make a big mistake. He did not get all of the information about lineups and so on till after the fact. The game was being played under protest while the game was still playing. That was a administrative error by the State Director at the game. Never should a game be played in "youth" baseball while the game is under protest. That compounded this whole situation. If administration would have done what was right and pull both teams off the field at the time of protest, none of the infamous ruling would have taken place. Period end of story. But because the State Director (who does not live in Harrison) continued play and allowed this to esculate this was the ruling that the Tall Umpire made. He used 9.01C out of the rule book. Read it and you will understand.

As far as the missed bag, if you know the mechanics of a 2man system then the plate ump always has the touch of 3rd, thats his call. And by the way it was the right call, he cut it by about 3 feet. And the reason why the 1st base coach got dumped was because he came all the way down on the tall umpire. And even the manager of LS agreed. He got this guy of anyone who mattered. Its part of the game. Oh and by the way again, the runner who missed 3rd never said a peep. I wonder why? Guilty and he knew it.

But you failed to mention that LS won that game.

Basically back to the ruling. Was it enforced wrong, yes. And the reason being is nothing in any rulebook states that a player is eligable if he is on a form 100 for these tourneys. All of the playing rules are governed by AL rules. Americal League rules. Not NFHS, NCAA or any freaking Little League rules. Real baseball rules except for the force play slide rule.

And to answer the homer question. What about the appeal play at first when the Tall Umpire asked the 1st Base umpire (from Hot Springs) on a no called foul tip that the catcher miffed. The LS bench wanted to appeal to him and it was a LH batter. I wonder why that was. He asked the LS bench why there and they did not want to go to 3rd. And he allowed it. And the 1st base umpire swore he saw it hit something from 125 ft away. And it did not hit anything but the catchers glove, nothing more nothing less. But all of you so called "No it alls" had no clue. And you say Harrison looks for advantages and what not. If the 1st base umpire was not a "Homer" he would have said that it was his call which and should go to 3rd.

Thank you for the time and best wishes during football season to all.

Rzback4Life · August 18, 2010, 12:03:08 pm

Okra, I understand that it is sometimes easy to miss a post when you are reading all of these things trying to catch up. If you go up a few posts, you will see that my post is in reference to an incident that happened during the high school season. Sadly, there was almost a riot and yes the police had to be called.