Roster Limits

[Brian G]

The AAA limits to 15 the number of kids that can be listed in the official book for the State Tournament.  That is a travesty.

It's supposed to be about the kids and making you choose kids to fit that 15 max defeats the purpose of innerscholastic athletics.  That's especially true when you have been carrying 16, 17 or 18 all year without restrictions.

When compared to other sports that do not operate under such a limit it's absurd.

There are scorebooks that hold more than 15 names available and if the software on the scoreboard or someones stat program can't handle is the reason then that's ridiculous.

I've seen this come into play a few times and there is no good reason for it.

[mrcptkirk]

That is weak, hmmmmm will lose the support of the fans that child dont play that is on the team, if team win state, that player will not get a ring.

[Brian G]

Well, I'm sure the player would get a ring since the AAA doesn't award them(nor should they).  You can give a ring to anyone.

[mrcptkirk]

So, if understanding this the school gives the ring.

[Brian G]

Schools don't really do it either as they can't spend school funds.  It's bought by the winners, booster clubs or a local business.

But I ain't worried about rings on this as that only comes into play for a few.  The fact is a kid can't play.

[mrcptkirk]

100% behind on that.

[Pick_DA_EAGLES]

The AAA has more problems going on other than this. Im sure you have seen the thread in the 2A board about the Marmaduke gym being/not being big enough to hold the crowds who want to see the games.

[Brian G]

This is an injustice and a correctable error.  Correctable in a snap.  That gym deal is a bit more complicated.

[Pick_DA_EAGLES]

This is an injustice and a correctable error.  Correctable in a snap.  That gym deal is a bit more complicated.

True, but something that should never have taken place.

[Brian G]

Hence the discussion of that matter on that thread.  My view on that is the few number of gyms that fit that criteria that want it.  Small gyms is a common issue on that level.  Fill it up and make the point stick.

[TTofGreenwood]

B.G., curious as to how many games you have seen where a team went more than 15 deep into the game? I get your point, but don't see why it REALLY matters. As long as the kids get that ring if the team wins, then I'm cool with it.

Now, if you're saying they miss getting to go on the road trip and seeing a different venue, maybe spend a few nights out of town, well that is different. Be nice if the schools brought the extras along and allowed them to miss classes, since they are still part of the team.

It's an interesting thought....and/or complaint....

[Brian G]

Doesn't matter.  How many football teams play all 80 or 100?

[TTofGreenwood]

Doesn't matter.  How many football teams play all 80 or 100?

We do,  in 85% of our games.

[3A-2 Fan]

They can dress as many as they want but only 15 can be in the official scorebook and on the official roster.  They can all be listed in the program, etc. but they just won't be able to play in a game.  As someone said, that is normally not a problem in a state tournament game since most teams do not go 15 deep.

[Brian G]

TT, Now when you get to state, imagine not being able to play them due to a roster limit.  Imagine the 3rd quarter of the Mills game and reserves that have played all year can't go in due to the limit that didn't exist in the regular season.

Heck, 15 is only 3 times the amount that start.  By the same token, only 66(we won't count 2-way starters) should be the limit for football.

Why the same limits for large schools vs small schools?

Bottom-line is there should not be such a limit.  It's just another chair or two on the bench and a opp for a kid to play in the playoffs.

[bballfan00]

They can dress as many as they want but only 15 can be in the official scorebook and on the official roster.  They can all be listed in the program, etc. but they just won't be able to play in a game.  As someone said, that is normally not a problem in a state tournament game since most teams do not go 15 deep.

This is correct and the coach can change the 15 before each game. It is a dumb rule, but at least they let them dress out.

[ricepig]

If you can play 15 in a state playoff game, then maybe there are too many teams playing in it.

[Brian G]

What would you say is a good limit for each of the other sports?

Why do they not all have limits?

[ricepig]

What would you say is a good limit for each of the other sports?

Why do they not all have limits?

I didn't realize teams had more than 15 on a team. I don't think Jonesboro dresses out 15, maybe 12. I don't know of a fair number, it was 15 back in the stone ages when I played and I always assumed that's what schools dressed out for varsity. Most schools play a dedicated JV schedule, does the 7A West play JV games before their varsity DH's?

If it's only because of the scorebook, then that's down right laughable. Isn't baseball limited to 25 for tournamemts?

[Brian G]

There is a JV schedule in the west.  Lots of times coaches cut off at 15 just for that reason and for management reasons.

[ricepig]

Ok, that's the way we do it, the JV plays before the girls game and the players sit behind the bench during the varsiry game. I think at a lot of places it's crowded with 3 or 4 coaches and 15 players, I can see limiting it.

[mrcoachceltic]

I have noticed that most players that are in the 10-15 range rarely get the opportunity to play.They are mainly JV players.I for one dont see the purpose of carrying 15 players.I believe the limit should be 10 maybe 12 max.In Central Arkansas,there are bus issues that have angered me this season.If a kid lives within 1mile I believe it is.He/she isnt provided transportation from extracurricular events.That is puzzling to me.How can a kid that has played an entire game be made to find a ride home or walk.And it has been justified by the Transportation dept.So thats goes to show how strapped some school districts are financially.So Im sure there maybe additional cost associated with carrying players that will never touch the court.The name of the game is cutting cost I assume.

[Brian G]

I hear you but it's not about what people prefer for themselves.  It's about equity.

In upper classes, you see tons of kids on a football sideline and many never play.

[mrcoachceltic]

I understand your point of view.But as a summer basketball coach,I will never carry more than 10 kids.Additional kids can be a distraction for the team.There are some kids actually content beinv a part of the experience.However,there are some that will disrupt team chemistry for whatever reason(whether its bc of lack of playing time,parent meddling,etc).You have to ask yourself,what is the purpose of the season.I would hope it would to win a state championship.For the kids that do not make the roster,there are other teams to be apart of.(Rec leagues,AAU,church leagues).Personally,I dont think its about equality.Only the top players should be allowed to dress out.

[ricepig]

Yeah, lots of kids play football that rarely see the field, but there are instances where they do get in. I don't know if it's possible for schools with 90-100 players to get everyone in a game. I could see it limited to around 60-70, but that's not fair either.

[Brian G]

I understand your point of view.But as a summer basketball coach,I will never carry more than 10 kids.Additional kids can be a distraction for the team

Has no bearing on it.  However, I will point out there is no limit to how many kids you can have on your team when you go to tournaments.  That is most of them.

[Brian G]

Yeah, lots of kids play football that rarely see the field, but there are instances where they do get in. I don't know if it's possible for schools with 90-100 players to get everyone in a game. I could see it limited to around 60-70, but that's not fair either.

Basketball is just so regulated that it's odd.

For instance, when you run out of timeouts in football the never grant you one you don't have.  The refs know you don't have one and don't grant you one.  On the flip, when you call one you don't have in basketball it's a severe penalty.  Refs should not grant that timeout either.  But I digress.

It's on each team to decide how many they want to dress.  I see no harm in letting a team dress and play more if they so desire.  It's not the AAA's job to tell you how many that is for your team.

[Rulesman]

...when you run out of timeouts in football the never grant you one you don't have.  The refs know you don't have one and don't grant you one.  On the flip, when you call one you don't have in basketball it's a severe penalty.  Refs should not grant that timeout either.

Apples and watermelons....

In football, you don't grant a TO because the rules say you can't have one if you have used the allowable amount. In basketball, the rules allow you to buy as many as you want (by virtue of a technical foul for each) if you don't have any left.

[Brian G]

I would yield here but coaches don't take timeouts they don't have on purpose.  It's too punitive.

Why not give a 15 yarder to a football coach and let him have it?

[neds]

Very passionate topic

[ricepig]

I would yield here but coaches don't take timeouts they don't have on purpose.  It's too punitive.

Why not give a 15 yarder to a football coach and let him have it?

So you let a team kick a winning FG from the 30 instead of time running out? I don't think it's the same application.

[Brian G]

It was an example and shown to highlight the severity of the penalty towards basketball.

IMV, refs know a team doesn't have timeouts so don't grant them in either sport.  It eliminates the need for subjective punishments.

So, say it's loss of down and 30 yards....you in then? 

[ricepig]

I don't know, rules are rules. To me, it's kind of like MLB doing away with the third to first move by pitchers, it doesn't work much, but it was part of the game. I'd have no problem with them not allowing a time out in those situations, just change the rule.

[reggiebushfan]

I don't think it hurts anything to have your 16th-20th players dress out if the coach chooses...On the other hand, I don't see a situation where you are going 16 deep in a state tourney game.

[Busman]

I was told, literally 50 years ago, what was happening was schools that made the tournament would move up their jv's AND their 9th graders for the state tournament as a reward, and they would have rosters of 30-40 players.  Thus the change.

[Brian G]

Yet, it's done in football.

[reggiebushfan]

Yet, it's done in football.

I see what you are saying, and I fully know that it might mean a lot to a kid, but there is quite a bit more room on a football sideline to put the slappys on.

I would be for upping the limit to 20, but any more than that, and its just ridiculous.

Besides, 90% of teams aren't going more than 6-10 deep anyway. A 32 min. game doesn't allow for a lot of mop up time.

[Brian G]

At the end of games that are not close, it's a fine moment to put in a player.

[mrcoachceltic]

Yet, it's done in football.

I see what you are saying, and I fully know that it might mean a lot to a kid, but there is quite a bit more room on a football sideline to put the slappys on.

I would be for upping the limit to 20, but any more than that, and its just ridiculous.

Besides, 90% of teams aren't going more than 6-10 deep anyway. A 32 min. game doesn't allow for a lot of mop up time.

Especially since its state there shouldnt be much room for blowouts.Even if a team is down alot,the coach will use the players fit to make a comeback.The winning team may allow the bench to play but that normally consist of the kids 7-12..Its not logical to play players 13-20 in state not if the objective is winning.

[Busman]

And it's not just high school.  Colleges have limits too. Gyms are only so big.

[Brian G]

Yet, it's done in football.

I see what you are saying, and I fully know that it might mean a lot to a kid, but there is quite a bit more room on a football sideline to put the slappys on.

I would be for upping the limit to 20, but any more than that, and its just ridiculous.

Besides, 90% of teams aren't going more than 6-10 deep anyway. A 32 min. game doesn't allow for a lot of mop up time.

Especially since its state there shouldnt be much room for blowouts.Even if a team is down alot,the coach will use the players fit to make a comeback.The winning team may allow the bench to play but that normally consist of the kids 7-12..Its not logical to play players 13-20 in state not if the objective is winning.

There will be mercy rules games in the state tournament.  Watch for them.  Then there will be another dozen games with teams up 20 with a minture to go where both coaches clear their bench.

And to answer a question in advance, I do not have a son or relative on a team.

[TTofGreenwood]

It hit me this morning.....why am I involved in this thread. Its as useless as Bennie in WMS. Who really cares? And then you say u don't have a vested interest in the rule? Even weirder..... Nice concession stand though! 

[blueandwhite]

Next thing ya'll will want is a rule that everybody gets to play 5 minutes in every game. This is not t-ball, not everybody is going to get a trophy or a sno-cone after the game. If you are a player, work hard enough to be one of the 15 that gets on roster. If you are not good enough to get one of these spots than be a good enough team player that you go and support your team.

[mrcoachceltic]

Next thing ya'll will want is a rule that everybody gets to play 5 minutes in every game. This is not t-ball, not everybody is going to get a trophy or a sno-cone after the game. If you are a player, work hard enough to be one of the 15 that gets on roster. If you are not good enough to get one of these spots than be a good enough team player that you go and support your team.

+1

[Brian G]

Next thing ya'll will want is a rule that everybody gets to play 5 minutes in every game. This is not t-ball, not everybody is going to get a trophy or a sno-cone after the game. If you are a player, work hard enough to be one of the 15 that gets on roster. If you are not good enough to get one of these spots than be a good enough team player that you go and support your team.

Not applicable.

The point is this is about participation equity between sports.  It's also about the fact there are not roster limits until the playoffs.  If you're going to have limits, they should be for all sports and for the entire season.

Your facetious comments don't apply here.  If a coach wants to dress 16 or 17 that's his decision in Week one and the in the playoffs. If he wants to play them, that's his decision too.

Go ahead and be flippant but your off mark towards this discussion point.

[Brian G]

It hit me this morning.....why am I involved in this thread. Its as useless as Bennie in WMS. Who really cares? And then you say u don't have a vested interest in the rule? Even weirder..... Nice concession stand though! 

So just wanting it level requires a self-serving motive?

And that concessions stand is getting better next week.

[Cabotred]

Not applicable.

The point is this is about participation equity between sports.  It's also about the fact there are not roster limits until the playoffs.  If you're going to have limits, they should be for all sports and for the entire season.

Your facetious comments don't apply here.  If a coach wants to dress 16 or 17 that's his decision in Week one and the in the playoffs. If he wants to play them, that's his decision too.

Go ahead and be flippant but your off mark towards this discussion point.
[/quote]

X2. Why change rule for playoffs?  Every other rules is same. Let make the goal 10 ft 6 inches high...........

The AAA just lost my admission and Fayeteville just lost revenue form my traveling to NWA for 7A state tourny, I would have spent money on room, eats, gas, bought the t-shirt  etc.  My son is a freshman that got moved up to Sr. High team. I am sure he will not be on roster of 15, therefore will not get in game.  I would go even if there was a 1% chance he would get in for 3 seconds but time and money are resources that are in high demand. Don get me wrong I have supported the Sr. Team all season long, going to most home games and a few away but I have other children that I could support that weekend.  My 9 th grade son will enjoy the trip but it would mean the world to him if he got to play. Even if he was on roster odds are slim that he would get playing time, but with way rules are set now the odds are 0%. Why take away the hope and dream he and any other ball player has. Even worse than a freshman, just think of a Sr. that loves the game and doesn't have the skills to contribute to team. He has practiced and worked for three years, coach has let him participated because of his effort. His team is playing in state tourny, they are up or down by 30 with minute left. He could not play. Think about the movie "Rudy". His team mates would want him to play.

Besides the point of doing what is right, I believe the AAA would want more kids on roster to bolster attendance.

[Brian G]

^^ That right there is my point.

The only thing I would say is it would still be great to see you in Fayetteville and you could still support the team.  Plus it's possible we could play each other on Thursday.

[ricepig]

Why move up 9th graders if there is not any room on the 15 man roster? It's obvious they aren't going to work themselves in to the rotation, why move them up? How many facilities have room for more than 15 players and 4 coaches on their bench? I'm sure some om the newest facilities do, but do all? I don't have any problem with bringing the whole school, but you need to have room and accommodations for them.

[TTofGreenwood]

If a freshman is moved up, he/she has to be better than average, if not great. I figure your kid will make the 15 man roster. Just a hunch.