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Time for changes to the game??

Started by Bwana, May 24, 2014, 10:58:47 am

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Bwana

With the season coming to a close are there any changes you'd like to see in high school softball?? Personally I'd like to see the bases moved back 10 feet, pitcher inning limits and the ability to steal.. All more in line with baseball.. I believe those changes would force Coaches to develop more players and take the focus off of pitching (pitching has improved greatly over the last few years, lets move on to other areas).. These are all just my thoughts on the game so lets hear what changes you'd like to see..

CathywithaC

pitching distance should be farther.  It's such a pitcher dominated game now that it's just not too exciting for someone who doesn't have skin in the game, imho.

Bwana

Quote from: CathywithaC on May 24, 2014, 11:14:30 am
pitching distance should be farther.  It's such a pitcher dominated game now that it's just not too exciting for someone who doesn't have skin in the game, imho.
I agree.. There has been such a focus on pitching that when there is a routine hit many times it looks like a Chinese fire drill in the infield and outfield.. Again these are just my observations and that and $2.29 will get you a cup of coffee at IHOP..

Dragon I


sevenof400

Quote from: Bwana on May 24, 2014, 11:24:32 am
Quote from: CathywithaC on May 24, 2014, 11:14:30 am
pitching distance should be farther.  It's such a pitcher dominated game now that it's just not too exciting for someone who doesn't have skin in the game, imho.
I agree.. There has been such a focus on pitching that when there is a routine hit many times it looks like a Chinese fire drill in the infield and outfield.. Again these are just my observations and that and $2.29 will get you a cup of coffee at IHOP..

At that price, that better be one outstanding cup of coffee....

Bwana

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 24, 2014, 12:46:12 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 24, 2014, 11:24:32 am
Quote from: CathywithaC on May 24, 2014, 11:14:30 am
pitching distance should be farther.  It's such a pitcher dominated game now that it's just not too exciting for someone who doesn't have skin in the game, imho.
I agree.. There has been such a focus on pitching that when there is a routine hit many times it looks like a Chinese fire drill in the infield and outfield.. Again these are just my observations and that and $2.29 will get you a cup of coffee at IHOP..

At that price, that better be one outstanding cup of coffee....
LOL after suffering sticker shock at the games last night ($4 for a bottle of water) $2.29 for a cup of coffee wasn't bad.. We stopped at IHOP in Russellville and it was $2.29 for a cup of coffee.. It's all you can drink but the first cup is $2.29..

Lionheart88

Quote from: Bwana on May 24, 2014, 10:58:47 am
With the season coming to a close are there any changes you'd like to see in high school softball?? Personally I'd like to see the bases moved back 10 feet, pitcher inning limits and the ability to steal.. All more in line with baseball.. I believe those changes would force Coaches to develop more players and take the focus off of pitching (pitching has improved greatly over the last few years, lets move on to other areas).. These are all just my thoughts on the game so lets hear what changes you'd like to see..
Clarification: do you mean lead off?  I'm pretty sure I saw some steals in the games I watched yesterday.  I don't really see the reason for inning limits, it isn't like baseball where you're going to hurt a kid's arm.  I've seen the same girl pitch multiple games in one day during tournaments.

Bwana

Quote from: Lionheart88 on May 24, 2014, 05:48:09 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 24, 2014, 10:58:47 am
With the season coming to a close are there any changes you'd like to see in high school softball?? Personally I'd like to see the bases moved back 10 feet, pitcher inning limits and the ability to steal.. All more in line with baseball.. I believe those changes would force Coaches to develop more players and take the focus off of pitching (pitching has improved greatly over the last few years, lets move on to other areas).. These are all just my thoughts on the game so lets hear what changes you'd like to see..
Clarification: do you mean lead off?  I'm pretty sure I saw some steals in the games I watched yesterday.  I don't really see the reason for inning limits, it isn't like baseball where you're going to hurt a kid's arm.  I've seen the same girl pitch multiple games in one day during tournaments.
Correct, I was referring to being able to lead off.. Inning limits isn't about a kid hurting their arm in my opinion but other kids being developed for the position.. I know of several kids that pitched every inning of every game their team played this year.. It's about player opportunity and adding another dimension to the game..

pdj

less lively bats/balls
hold umpires to higher standards
enforce pitching rules
at each fastpitch game post directions to the slowpitch or baseball field

From my limited experience, bad mechanics can quickly injure a pitcher.  Best protection for a pitcher is using good mechanics while playing with a knowledgeable coach, along with proper warmup/cool down. 

True Fan

I love to watch softball, baseball, not so much. A lot of it is because of the pace of the game. Most of the Bwana's suggestions would really hurt the flow of the game, IMO. The best pitcher should be in the circle, limited only by how they perform. Requiring a change is as bad as rec league where everyone plays an equal number of innings and gets to play infield. Should we rotate lead off batters so everyone gets a turn? All of the work that goes into developing a pitcher should take place well before game time. Thinking about the mechanics of how a pitcher would come out of a windup to attempt a pick off just brings up some of the most awkward, potentially injurious moves that I can imagine. I can't see it being very enjoyable to watch. No need to move the bases back, either. That will lead to fewer on base reducing the offense against what you seem to want.

Leave the pitching distance alone. There is no reason that a batter can't put a ball in play. I have not seen a pitcher yet that could throw the ball by every batter. Between bunting, slapping, and just being able to hit the ball, any batter can have a chance. Batting mechanics and fundamental defense is two areas where I think many teams need to spend a lot more time on.

Taking some pop out of the bats and balls could make the game more interesting.
Changing the umpire system isn't going to happen.
Enforcing pitching rules would be great. But, see previous statement. ;D

Agreeing with pdj, it ain't baseball or slow pitch. I say let it be.


Lionheart88

Quote from: Bwana on May 24, 2014, 08:03:15 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on May 24, 2014, 05:48:09 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 24, 2014, 10:58:47 am
With the season coming to a close are there any changes you'd like to see in high school softball?? Personally I'd like to see the bases moved back 10 feet, pitcher inning limits and the ability to steal.. All more in line with baseball.. I believe those changes would force Coaches to develop more players and take the focus off of pitching (pitching has improved greatly over the last few years, lets move on to other areas).. These are all just my thoughts on the game so lets hear what changes you'd like to see..
Clarification: do you mean lead off?  I'm pretty sure I saw some steals in the games I watched yesterday.  I don't really see the reason for inning limits, it isn't like baseball where you're going to hurt a kid's arm.  I've seen the same girl pitch multiple games in one day during tournaments.
Correct, I was referring to being able to lead off.. Inning limits isn't about a kid hurting their arm in my opinion but other kids being developed for the position.. I know of several kids that pitched every inning of every game their team played this year.. It's about player opportunity and adding another dimension to the game..
You could probably say the same of other positions.  I'm pretty sure White Hall's starting 1B and 2B this year have held those positions for four straight years.  Should they be forced to sit and let others who haven't earned it have a turn?  Maybe that's fine in city-league recreational ball, but this is HS varsity.  Let the best players play.

I'm fine with players being able to lead off.  I love good small ball.  Never was clear on why they couldn't lead off in softball.

pdj

I don't want to change umpire system, it would be wonderful to see some improved skills in this area.

Takes a ball .5 second, or so, to go from pitcher's hand to catcher's glove.  Very few hs catchers have a sub 3 second pop time.  No leadoff needed for the quicker runners.  With so many umps looking at the pitcher's push foot it is quite normal to see a runner leave one or two steps early. 

Bwana

My point in all this is that from a spectator point of view the sport is boring.. It's at the same place that girls 3 on 3 basketball was in the 70's.. I watched some of the Fl vs Wa College Super Regional yesterday and there may have been 200 people there.. Unless you've got a kid or kin on the field it's just not much of a draw..

sevenof400

Quote from: Bwana on May 26, 2014, 12:34:17 pm
My point in all this is that from a spectator point of view the sport is boring.. It's at the same place that girls 3 on 3 basketball was in the 70's.. I watched some of the Fl vs Wa College Super Regional yesterday and there may have been 200 people there.. Unless you've got a kid or kin on the field it's just not much of a draw..

Let me try and make a more useful comment than my previous attempt while building on Bwana's thoughts.  I am but a casual fan of the game - one with no family connections to the game.  I may stop by a game in progress and watch for a bit and then just as randomly move on when the mood strikes me. 

I say that because I get entirely too bored with the pitcher/catcher dominance of softball (baseball too for that matter).  I enjoy a game that moves along at a good clip, while involving all of the players on the field.  IMO, too many softball games are decided by who has the better pitcher period

I'd like to see softball involve more field play and to that end, I would support moving the pitchers mound back ten feet (or so).  Let's see which team can pitch, hit, field, run and throw and that team should be the winner.  It should not be a game determined (almost) exclusively by which pitcher can bring the heat the longest.  I defer to Crash Davis here:
QuoteDon't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

True Fan

When two good Arkansas high school teams play, it is usually a good mix of defense with neither pitcher going far into double digit strikeouts, if at all.

The problem I see is that there are a bunch of really bad teams that can be beat by a competitive 12/14u team with the notorious daddy coach.

There are but a handful of truly dominant pitchers that pas through AR.

As for a spectator sport, it's not and never will be without a connection. Maybe, if they put the girls in bikini's or something.

It's a game. It's a challenge and a learning experience for those who play. There is no reason to change it one bit to appeal to anything that happens outside the fence.

Bwana

But it is a pitcher dominated game at this point.. How many MVP's were pitchers in this weeks State Championship games?? How many players can most folks name other than the pitcher on the State tournament teams or the better teams around the State??
And it should be more of a spectator sport, like any other sport.. Spectators pay the bills and keep the lights on..

Lionheart88

Quote from: True Fan on May 26, 2014, 03:13:05 pm
When two good Arkansas high school teams play, it is usually a good mix of defense with neither pitcher going far into double digit strikeouts, if at all.

The problem I see is that there are a bunch of really bad teams that can be beat by a competitive 12/14u team with the notorious daddy coach.

There are but a handful of truly dominant pitchers that pas through AR.

As for a spectator sport, it's not and never will be without a connection. Maybe, if they put the girls in bikini's or something.

It's a game. It's a challenge and a learning experience for those who play. There is no reason to change it one bit to appeal to anything that happens outside the fence.
Let's save that for pro softball, not teenagers.

True Fan

Well crud. Let's just hit off of a pitching machine so them pitchers aren't as noticeable.

While we're at it, let's do something about quarterbacks getting so much exposure. Johnny Lineman doesn't get mentioned at all until he does something wrong.

There are very few, if any,revenue producing softball programs in the state. Changing the game to try to make it a spectator sport will never work and will ruin the game.

Again, just my opinion.


As for pro softball, if they followed beach volleyballs lead, they might pick up some viewers. And, one heck of a bloody sand wedgie on a slide into home. ;D


True Fan

As for paying the bills and keeping the lights on, ticket sales and the concession stand doesn't come close.  Most of that comes from the same mommas and daddy's and the corporate support whose names were on the banners the summer teams were flying. Or the hometown businesses that donate to the sports program for the kids and understand that the scoreboard that they sponsored will never be seen by as many people as a sign on the highway.

Bwana

I understand you don't see any reason for change and that's fine but many around the State would like to see some changes.. There was much debate about the effects of change when they changed from 3 on 3 basketball.. It took a couple of years but looking back it was the best thing to ever happen to girls basketball.. Every sport makes changes from time to time for one reason or the other and many out there think it's time for some changes to the game, myself included..

sevenof400

Quote from: True Fan on May 26, 2014, 04:15:06 pm
Well crud. Let's just hit off of a pitching machine so them pitchers aren't as noticeable.

While we're at it, let's do something about quarterbacks getting so much exposure. Johnny Lineman doesn't get mentioned at all until he does something wrong.

There are very few, if any,revenue producing softball programs in the state. Changing the game to try to make it a spectator sport will never work and will ruin the game.

Again, just my opinion.


As for pro softball, if they followed beach volleyballs lead, they might pick up some viewers. And, one heck of a bloody sand wedgie on a slide into home. ;D

True Fan,

It sounds like you may have a pitcher in your family! 

Just pulling your chain a bit here...

True Fan

Far from it. My girls gear up to start the inning. ;D

Bwana, I talk to a lot of folks around the state a I haven't heard anyone throwing around your suggestions.

I'm not against change. When it's done for the right reason.

sevenof400

Quote from: True Fan on May 26, 2014, 05:08:51 pm
Far from it. My girls gear up to start the inning. ;D

They don the tools of ignorance?

(I assume this reference works in softball as it does baseball....)

Bwana

Probably not because as I stated from the beginning these are things I'd like to see change..

recruitem

Why don't you shorten everything on baseball field then maybe I could stand to watch a game. Softball is fun to watch.

Bwana

What position does your kid play??

BIG_K

Shrink the strike zone like they have done in college.

baller72

Been involved in baseball the first half of my life and loved it.
But now I coach softball and can't ever imagine enjoying softball being turned into "female baseball". I talk to a lot of coaches and have NEVER heard anyone mention wanting to change this game. Leave it alone, it's fast, fun, and exciting to watch just the way it is. Imo

recruitem

Quote from: Bwana on May 26, 2014, 05:42:41 pm
What position does your kid play??

Does not make a difference you can't change the game because some are good pitchers, some are good hitters and some are fast. If you can't play the game the way it was designed maybe choose another sport. Home run records are broke every year but some dad has to get on here if his daughter didn't do good and make up a thread like this. That's why softball has different classifications, so you can play where you want.

Bwana

Quote from: recruitem on May 26, 2014, 10:02:47 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 26, 2014, 05:42:41 pm
What position does your kid play??

Does not make a difference you can't change the game because some are good pitchers, some are good hitters and some are fast. If you can't play the game the way it was designed maybe choose another sport. Home run records are broke every year but some dad has to get on here if his daughter didn't do good and make up a thread like this. That's why softball has different classifications, so you can play where you want.
First off my daughter is 24 and my view is simply that of a spectator.. Some of ya'll seem to have a reading comprehension problem.. This thread was simply asking people what changes they'd like to see to make the game more exciting to watch.. If you think everything is fine then say so and move on.. And your last sentence makes no sense what so ever..

recruitem

Quote from: Bwana on May 26, 2014, 10:34:31 pm
Quote from: recruitem on May 26, 2014, 10:02:47 pm
Quote from: Bwana on May 26, 2014, 05:42:41 pm
What position does your kid play??

Does not make a difference you can't change the game because some are good pitchers, some are good hitters and some are fast. If you can't play the game the way it was designed maybe choose another sport. Home run records are broke every year but some dad has to get on here if his daughter didn't do good and make up a thread like this. That's why softball has different classifications, so you can play where you want.
First off my daughter is 24 and my view is simply that of a spectator.. Some of ya'll seem to have a reading comprehension problem.. This thread was simply asking people what changes they'd like to see to make the game more exciting to watch.. If you think everything is fine then say so and move on.. And your last sentence makes no sense what so ever..

If my last sentence don't make sense to you then obviously you are a spectator talking about a subject you don't know much about. If you want changes then write the NFHS or oppropriate association that you are concerned about. If nothing is done and softball is still boring to you maybe you should watch another sport.

True Fan

Comparing fastpitch to 6 on 6 basketball is a stretch. That like comparing slow pitch to baseball.

Softball left that era when we went from slowpitch to fastpitch. There was a lot of disagreement about changing over. I would bet that Bwana wanted to keep it slow because there was more team involved. There's a lot more offense and a lot more action in slow pitch. Heck, they even allow stealing on some levels now. It's a great "spectator" sport. Of course, only families and other connected people show up.

It looks like the majority folks who are still lurking around the softball boards think that everything is fine. 

BvilleTiger

Quote from: Bwana on May 26, 2014, 03:51:00 pm
How many players can most folks name other than the pitcher on the State tournament teams or the better teams around the State??

Rogers
Chandler Little
Kylan Hensley
Jennifer Gonzalez
Ryan Vaughn

Fayetteville
Taylor Crockett
Sydney Crockett
Rudasill
Poole
Mabry

Bentonville
Emma
Lowry
Hardison
Wildeman
Claire Lacina
Maddie Hill
Woods
Vaughn

Harber
Kylie Buttram
Morgan Neal
Bogle

I could go on but I think I proved the point.

LadycatsFan

As far as changing the pitching distance.....that just happened about 3 years ago when it went from 40' to 43'....maybe the hitters need to work on reaction time a little more.....I dont have a dog in the hunt anymore....but my daughter just adapted to speed of the pitching by having mor reps in the batting cage!!!!

sevenof400

Quote from: recruitem on May 26, 2014, 11:18:31 pm
If my last sentence don't make sense to you then obviously you are a spectator talking about a subject you don't know much about. If you want changes then write the NFHS or oppropriate association that you are concerned about. If nothing is done and softball is still boring to you maybe you should watch another sport.

Let's consider this point - do you think the sport is heading in the direction of growth in terms of the number of players and popularity?  In other words, is the pool of players becoming broader and deeper given the current environment in which the game is played? 

500 hitter

I would say the sport is growing. I don't believe ESPN or ESPN 2 were putting the softball games in prime spots a few years ago. Do you? TV coverage tells the tale, if the sport wasn't growing there would be no tv time for fast pitch. It seemed to me that college softball and baseball have split the tv time the last few weeks.

whitefella1

What needs to change is the use of the ITB in championship play. The only purpose it serves is to keep games from going too long. We don't seem to care if Baseball lasts all day but Softball has to stay on schedule.

Bye Week

Plain and simple!! The game is set up what the sport was designed for!!  If the game involves two dominant pitchers, it turns into a chess match between the coaches to make things happen!  Every game should be played as if it is two fast break basketball teams getting up and down the court!

BBRB

Quote from: whitefella1 on May 27, 2014, 01:04:52 pm
What needs to change is the use of the ITB in championship play. The only purpose it serves is to keep games from going too long. We don't seem to care if Baseball lasts all day but Softball has to stay on schedule.
GREAT THINKING...There were lots of games decided by the ITB....What makes matters worse is the importance of coaching is WAY elevated in these situations and too many of them really don't have the tools.

Lionheart88

Quote from: whitefella1 on May 27, 2014, 01:04:52 pm
What needs to change is the use of the ITB in championship play. The only purpose it serves is to keep games from going too long. We don't seem to care if Baseball lasts all day but Softball has to stay on schedule.
ITB?

True Fan

International Tie Breaker.

The player listed in the line up above the lead off batter starts the extra innings on 2nd base to increase the possibility if a run scoring.

The base runner is often referred to as the "last out" when determining to correct player which confuses the crud out of way too many people. But, that's a topic of its own. ;D

Lionheart88

Ok, right.  I've seen it before, I just didn't know there was a special name for that person.  lol

The real Matt Cook

You obviously never drove by and watched a Lady Gator game? They broke 9 STATE records and several school records this year. Runs scored 335, stolen bases 268, team batting avg. 440, doubles and singles hit, just to name a few. For you to think that it's a pitcher/catcher game is just idiotic. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

sevenof400

Quote from: The real Matt Cook on May 30, 2014, 11:18:47 pm
You obviously never drove by and watched a Lady Gator game? They broke 9 STATE records and several school records this year. Runs scored 335, stolen bases 268, team batting avg. 440, doubles and singles hit, just to name a few. For you to think that it's a pitcher/catcher game is just idiotic. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

If those statistics applied to more than one team, your point would be much stronger.  As it is, far too many games are pitcher / catcher dominated.  Baseball had this problem in the 60's and responded by lowering the pitchers mound.  I don't think it is a bad idea to review the overall health of the game periodically to determine if some changes might benefit the game.

pdj

Moving back the pitcher - Why?  Move to the back of the batters box and gain 4' of distance.  7' of space to use as the situation dictates.

Golden Arrow 16

 ::
why dint the other players on each team spend extra time on their own to improve the quality of the game instead of a lot of rule changes

True Fan

Moving the pitcher back might be an idea for the college level, where every pitcher is overwhelmingly dominant. Overkill for high school. There aren't that many great pitchers. Just a lot of terrible batters. There are tons of girls who no longer play summer ball. Practice consists of two rounds of everybody gets five pitches from coach behind the screen. Or, a bucket of balls with the pitching machine on high.

Pitching is not the problem.

sevenof400

Quote from: True Fan on May 31, 2014, 07:44:49 am
Moving the pitcher back might be an idea for the college level, where every pitcher is overwhelmingly dominant. Overkill for high school. There aren't that many great pitchers. Just a lot of terrible batters. There are tons of girls who no longer play summer ball. Practice consists of two rounds of everybody gets five pitches from coach behind the screen. Or, a bucket of balls with the pitching machine on high.

Pitching is not the problem.

That's an interesting perspective, True Fan.  One observation I recall from watching a team or two practice was how much wasted time there was during a practice.  I suspect this inefficiency was more than likely a result of the coach's poor planning than anything else but I observed practices consistently taking 3 and 1/2 to 4 hours each day.  That was simply ridiculous.  For the majority of the players, a good amount of that time was spent standing in the field, waiting for a ball to be hit by the batter and on the few occasions that occurred, simply throw the ball back to the infield so the pitcher had a ready supply of balls.

Let me ask a slightly different question on this. 
What does a quality practice look like?  What resources does it require (people, equipment, etc)?

pdj

One way to make a pitcher less dominant - Call all pitches from the dugout, without input from the catcher.  Oh wait.......

True Fan

May 31, 2014, 09:13:04 am #49 Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 09:14:41 am by True Fan
I really did lol on that one, pdj.

On practice, a lot to tap out on the phone. Keys are skill building drills and involvement. Many need basic throwing and catching and fielding fundamentals. Keep everyone working in the practice and make it competitive. Have players work batting stations, tee, soft toss, zip line, live arm whiffle, and full live arm in a cage. For full defense, I like coach hit with jv running. Emphasis on situational awareness and everybody being in position. And, there is no substitute for game experience. Scrimmage with different line ups to give the players a new perspective. I believe in teaching. A girl that understands the game will be more successful that a talented kid that just shows up to play.

But keep in mind, I'm just an ole daddy coach. ;)

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