Will new onside kick rule affect PA?

[fourpeat]

I haven't seen PA play in years, but did they still do the pop-up onside kick?  Will this new rule affect them?

[Overdahill]

I haven't seen PA play in years, but did they still do the pop-up onside kick?  Will this new rule affect them?

IDK but I hope we can borrow your handle "fourpeat" at year end 

[STBruin]

New rule will not affect PA. Rule is that if the kicker drives the ball into the ground and it pops up after the kick...that is outlawed...but if it hits the ground and bounces and then pops up...it's legal.

[JessieP]

The onside kick is a gimmick. It was something most high school kids had problems with because teams spent so little time practicing for it. Most teams now are aware it's coming and prepare for it. If you look at the past couple years the times PA recovered it has gone way down. There is a very good reason why it's not used in college or pros, it's a gimmick. The going for it on 4th down is far more lethal, that is a mathematical gamble that a well coached team with a solid offensive scheme has a clear advantage. That extra down contributes far more to PA's dominance then the onside kick. The pop-up rule is a safety measure and a good one. Having a player standing flat footed looking up while the kicking team bears down with a 10 yard running start is a recipe for serious injury. The no pop-up rule will have about the same negative effect on PA as the price of hot dogs at the snack bar does. 

[beach bum]

The onside kick is a gimmick. It was something most high school kids had problems with because teams spent so little time practicing for it. Most teams now are aware it's coming and prepare for it. If you look at the past couple years the times PA recovered it has gone way down. There is a very good reason why it's not used in college or pros, it's a gimmick. The going for it on 4th down is far more lethal, that is a mathematical gamble that a well coached team with a solid offensive scheme has a clear advantage. That extra down contributes far more to PA's dominance then the onside kick. The pop-up rule is a safety measure and a good one. Having a player standing flat footed looking up while the kicking team bears down with a 10 yard running start is a recipe for serious injury. The no pop-up rule will have about the same negative effect on PA as the price of hot dogs at the snack bar does.

Everything that PA does is a product of it working because of the social demographic of their student population. I don't mean that as a diss, cause its beyond smart using their system with the specific PA student population. Try using their system at Western Yell County or Mountain Pine and tell me how well that goes if those 2A schools played England or Conway Christian with PA's system. He would be mercy ruled by the first quarter giving the other team the ball in scoring position 90% of the time after 4th down. This goes both ways. PA wouldn't do well running the Wishbone. It works for a school like Cabot to help them compete a little better against the more athletic 7A teams around the state. You have to coach to your players and PA does that well with their system.

[JessieP]

Everything that PA does is a product of it working because of the social demographic of their student population. I don't mean that as a diss, cause its beyond smart using their system with the specific PA student population. Try using their system at Western Yell County or Mountain Pine and tell me how well that goes if those 2A schools played England or Conway Christian with PA's system. He would be mercy ruled by the first quarter giving the other team the ball in scoring position 90% of the time after 4th down. This goes both ways. PA wouldn't do well running the Wishbone. It works for a school like Cabot to help them compete a little better against the more athletic 7A teams around the state. You have to coach to your players and PA does that well with their system.

I agree with that. That was my point, an athletic team couldn't care less about the onside kick. PA plays with what they have. People ask what it takes to beat PA, it's quite simple, beat them physically. They are far too smart and well coached to lose a shoot out type game. They will match you point for point and then exploit your mistake. The PA posters are very gracious and they don't make excuses. They openly admit that 4 years ago Batesville beat them because they smacked them in the mouth. They controlled the line of scrimmage and out hit them. PA plays a very cerebral game of football because that's what they have. Last year East Salt Lake lined up and bullied them, they had about 5 inches and 50lbs of advantage over PA up front. PA is a Nationally respected team but no one puts them up there with Mater Dei, Bishop Gorman or St. Joes. It's unfair, those schools have 3x's as many students and are physically far bigger. They are the epitome of playing the hand they were dealt.

[HorseFeathers]

Everything that PA does is a product of it working because of the social demographic of their student population. I don't mean that as a diss, cause its beyond smart using their system with the specific PA student population. Try using their system at Western Yell County or Mountain Pine and tell me how well that goes if those 2A schools played England or Conway Christian with PA's system. He would be mercy ruled by the first quarter giving the other team the ball in scoring position 90% of the time after 4th down. This goes both ways. PA wouldn't do well running the Wishbone. It works for a school like Cabot to help them compete a little better against the more athletic 7A teams around the state. You have to coach to your players and PA does that well with their system.

Wyc and Mountain Pine could play good teams in their class with an extra player on the field and still be mercy ruled early though. 

[PA Dad]

I think beach bum and JessieP both nailed their analysis.  PA wins by playing smart.  You rarely see a PA player miss an assignment.  PA runs precise plays and, on both offense and defense, are rarely out of position.

But PA is not big enough to just lineup and run over a good team.  When they play a team that is as disciplined as they are but is bigger and stronger, they lose.  That's what happened with Batesville in 2012.  Batesville is always disciplined but that 2012 team was exceptionally disciplined and they were bigger and stronger than PA.  It was the same story with East last year.

So, the bottom line is that you can't beat PA with brute strength, but you can beat PA if you are bigger and stronger and you play as smart and disciplined as PA.

That's not to say it's easy- it's obviously not.  And, if I had to choose, I'd say playing smart and disciplined is more important than being strong and physical.

Some school needs to hire beach bum, JessieP and me as coaches - we have this figured out!

[JessieP]

I think beach bum and JessieP both nailed their analysis.  PA wins by playing smart.  You rarely see a PA player miss an assignment.  PA runs precise plays and, on both offense and defense, are rarely out of position.

But PA is not big enough to just lineup and run over a good team.  When they play a team that is as disciplined as they are but is bigger and stronger, they lose.  That's what happened with Batesville in 2012.  Batesville is always disciplined but that 2012 team was exceptionally disciplined and they were bigger and stronger than PA.  It was the same story with East last year.

So, the bottom line is that you can't beat PA with brute strength, but you can beat PA if you are bigger and stronger and you play as smart and disciplined as PA.

That's not to say it's easy- it's obviously not.  And, if I had to choose, I'd say playing smart and disciplined is more important than being strong and physical.

Some school needs to hire beach bum, JessieP and me as coaches - we have this figured out!

PA Dad why stop there? put us in charge of the Country. It may seem like I waffle in my opinion of PA, I don't. I am still unsure of the recruiting issue but I have never begrudged what they do between the lines. I have always said when you see them in warm-ups they are not at all intimidating. They look like skinny white kids. When you watch film they look flawless. They don't make mental errors. The coaches say "this is what we have? ok, let's make it work". They may run a different scheme if they were 6'5, 320lbs up front. I once heard a coach say that after a PA game your interior players are not winded, the skill players are. PA beats people with ease, they don't beat up people. That is very impressive. They have won 3 straight State Titles with teams that wouldn't scare a girls softball team in a dark alley. They do it with brains and work ethic.

[Go Postal]

The onside kick is a gimmick. It was something most high school kids had problems with because teams spent so little time practicing for it. Most teams now are aware it's coming and prepare for it. If you look at the past couple years the times PA recovered it has gone way down. There is a very good reason why it's not used in college or pros, it's a gimmick. The going for it on 4th down is far more lethal, that is a mathematical gamble that a well coached team with a solid offensive scheme has a clear advantage. That extra down contributes far more to PA's dominance then the onside kick. The pop-up rule is a safety measure and a good one. Having a player standing flat footed looking up while the kicking team bears down with a 10 yard running start is a recipe for serious injury. The no pop-up rule will have about the same negative effect on PA as the price of hot dogs at the snack bar does.

The price of.hotdogs is going up? Man, I hope that doesn't negatively affect my watching the Bruins/Lady Bruins play in any sports. Dagnabbit.

[GuvHog]

New rule will not affect PA. Rule is that if the kicker drives the ball into the ground and it pops up after the kick...that is outlawed...but if it hits the ground and bounces and then pops up...it's legal.

No, if it pops up at all, it's illegal.

[Coach DePriest, Sheridan]

No, if it pops up at all, it's illegal.

Really? Have you ever thought about doing any research at all before you post something that of which you are ignorant?

Let me get this straight,  if a player kicks a ball in such a manner that the ball bounces three times then "pops up", that is illegal?

[Go Postal]

Coach or anyone, could you please explain the new rule to the unenlightened like me.  Thanks.

[walkingguy72396]

Seems as if every person who posts about pop-up kick-offs has a different opinion about what a pop-up kick-off is.

I can see this being taken to the Supreme Court.

Unless a video is made.  This one covers a bunch of other rules also. .  This one was made for Hawaii.

At least now.  I think I know what a pop-up kick is.

[Chief_Osceola™]

Everything that PA does is a product of it working because of the social demographic of their student population.

Just a bunch of gritty, scrappy kids who are gym rats that bring their lunchpails to practice every day.  They are the first ones to the field and the last to leave, cerebral, coaches-on-the-field type kids.


(Disclaimer: to be clear, this post was completely tongue-in-cheek.  The point being, the demographic makeup of PA is a large Caucasian percentage, which seems to be what many suggest but few come out and say.  Making light of that, the post above is the description commentators use for every single sport when discussing the lighter-skinned athletes.  Seriously - listen for it sometime.)

[JessieP]

Just a bunch of gritty, scrappy kids who are gym rats that bring their lunchpails to practice every day.  They are the first ones to the field and the last to leave, cerebral, coaches-on-the-field type kids.


(Disclaimer: to be clear, this post was completely tongue-in-cheek.  The point being, the demographic makeup of PA is a large Caucasian percentage, which seems to be what many suggest but few come out and say.  Making light of that, the post above is the description commentators use for every single sport when discussing the lighter-skinned athletes.  Seriously - listen for it sometime.)

Great post, I actually laughed out loud at that one (I wish we had some sort of abbreviation for laugh out loud, that would be convenient). Hey, let's discuss the elephant in the room. For the sake of full disclosure, I don't care for white people, lol. Being white, married a white woman and am raising 4 white kids I can honestly say there is a sort of reverse discrimination when it comes to sports. White teams annoy the heck out of Americans. I may be bringing up ancient history here but who remembers the 80's Lakers/Celtics? the only people who backed the Celtics were in Boston. We hated Danny Ainge and that angry snarl of his, we hated McHale and Bird. Who was more hated then Bill Laimbeer? How about Duke basketball? most people would root for Al Queda if they played Duke. BYU Football, when they won the National Championship in 1984 people were vomiting in trash cans.

There is no doubt the racial make-up of PA fans the flames here in Arkansas. The perception is they are privileged white kids who drive BMW's and pay off the refs. The reality is many students parents go into hawk to send their kids there. Many more receive financial aid (that's another debate on another thread). The fact PA wins so much annoys most people to no end. I remember in 2012 when Batesville beat PA there was a thread on another site titled "Tonight we are all Pioneers" people from all over the state were sending congratulations. The ironic thing is according to the Dem-Gazette in 2015 the only school that spends more on athletics then Batesville was Greenwood. Batesville outspends PA by a large margin. I have bashed PA as much as anyone but the fact is the kids playing football there are unfairly vilified. They do work hard and have earned every victory they have. Having said that, I hope we kick their butt this year.

[Coach DePriest, Sheridan]

Good point about the different opinions, but if the ball bounces two or more times, it is not considered a pop up kick.  My personal definition would be

A kick that is driven into the ground and pops up immediately on the first bounce high enough to cause a receiving team player to look up in order to field the football.

I'm not Merriam or Webster, so there may be holes all in that.  Please feel free to dissect that, and maybe we can come up with a better definition.

[Red Devil Alum]

I agree with that. That was my point, an athletic team couldn't care less about the onside kick. PA plays with what they have. People ask what it takes to beat PA, it's quite simple, beat them physically. They are far too smart and well coached to lose a shoot out type game. They will match you point for point and then exploit your mistake. The PA posters are very gracious and they don't make excuses. They openly admit that 4 years ago Batesville beat them because they smacked them in the mouth. They controlled the line of scrimmage and out hit them. PA plays a very cerebral game of football because that's what they have. Last year East Salt Lake lined up and bullied them, they had about 5 inches and 50lbs of advantage over PA up front. PA is a Nationally respected team but no one puts them up there with Mater Dei, Bishop Gorman or St. Joes. It's unfair, those schools have 3x's as many students and are physically far bigger. They are the epitome of playing the hand they were dealt.

I agree with basically everything you have said on this thread. It's part of the reason PA fans get upset about the recruiting talk. PA is not filled with great athletes, so talk of recruiting diminishes what they have accomplished. (With that said, I'm not trying to start a recruiting conversation).

Regarding onside kicks, at one time I had heard the number and PA is virtually undefeated when recovering an onside kick in a game.

[JessieP]

I agree with basically everything you have said on this thread. It's part of the reason PA fans get upset about the recruiting talk. PA is not filled with great athletes, so talk of recruiting diminishes what they have accomplished. (With that said, I'm not trying to start a recruiting conversation).

Regarding onside kicks, at one time I had heard the number and PA is virtually undefeated when recovering an onside kick in a game.

Last year we recovered every single onside kick, lotta good it did. The exception that proves the rule. Again, the onside kick thing is pretty much a non-factor. Going for it on 4th and 20 on your own 15 and getting it, that's a back breaker.

[JessieP]

Good point about the different opinions, but if the ball bounces two or more times, it is not considered a pop up kick.  My personal definition would be

A kick that is driven into the ground and pops up immediately on the first bounce high enough to cause a receiving team player to look up in order to field the football.

I'm not Merriam or Webster, so there may be holes all in that.  Please feel free to dissect that, and maybe we can come up with a better definition.

That was my point. A kid standing flat footed looking up for the ball is basically facing a firing squad. There are some high school districts in California that will only allow an onside kick if the kicking team is down by 14 or more points or in the last 2 minutes of a game. I would have no problem with that rule. It's a safety issue.

[Overdahill]

Hopefully PA's (and then Purdue's) Jason King will get some reps at guard or center during the Patriots pre-season game vs the Jaguars tonight. Go Big Jason!

[Rulesman]

My personal definition would be

A kick that is driven into the ground and pops up immediately on the first bounce high enough to cause a receiving team player to look up in order to field the football.

I'm not Merriam or Webster, so there may be holes all in that.  Please feel free to dissect that, and maybe we can come up with a better definition.

Let's try the rule book definition since that's the one that counts.

Rule 2-24-10: " A pop-up kick is a free kick in which the kicker drives the ball immediately into the ground, the ball strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of a ball kicked directly off the tee."

Rule 6-1-11: "A pop-up kick is illegal."