Issues and Questions for the Referee

[The Coach]

In past years I have heard of teams scheduling a 15 game season to allow for the possibility of adding a game at the end so a player could serve a red card suspension before playoffs begin.  And I have heard of teams looking to schedule a last minute game for this purpose, although I have never been involved in any such game.  I have not heard of AAA objecting to this tactic, but I have no inside knowledge.  It seems like schools would not risk potential penalties if it were forbidden.  Does AAA consider this a significant issue?  All red cards are reported to AAA, so the state could track this if they thought it necessary.  Are all schedule changes reported as well?

FWIW, this is a AAA issue that the referee would have no control over or ability to prevent.  I suppose AAA could ask the referee for rosters from an extra game if they wanted evidence of wrong doing, but is it really against the rules?

I've heard of it as well but had not experienced until recently. A team scheduled a game to sit a player their next conference opponent found out and called the AAA to ask and was told that player wouldn't be allowed to play. AAA then called that school to inform them that the player would have to sit the next conference game. Which to me is the next "comparable" match.

[dispossessed]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

No it's not ok and if the AAA finds out that player will be made to sit the next conference game or state game if that's what comes next.

What you have here are several people giving their interpretation of what the rule is or how it should read. It reads "next comparable game" with no additional or deleted terms from that rule. What is a "comparable game"? When can it be scheduled? It's certainly not defined. It has been allowed, it's available to any team to use, and until the all-knowing folks at the AAA decide to make a change in the rules and publish them for all to see, it's perfectly allowable. Period. If you want to take the time to fully understand the way that the rule is written, hop on over to the AAA website and read for yourself.

[The Coach]

I fully understand it takes place.

Thats why I said if they are AWARE of it they are absolutely NOT going to allow it.  Period.
   

[dispossessed]

Whatever "it" is. It makes it very subjective, doesn't it? Hmmm... If you are going to make the rules, you should abide by the rules. If you don't like them, change them. Until then, abide by them as written.

[The Coach]

Whatever "it" is. It makes it very subjective, doesn't it? Hmmm... If you are going to make the rules, you should abide by the rules. If you don't like them, change them. Until then, abide by them as written.

Maybe some of us assume its an unwritten rule that a Coach would understand and abide by.  Its kind of unethical and sneaky dont you think?

[Sir Alex]

Rules are written and adopted by the members of the AAA.  You must distinguish between the AAA and those employed to give interpretation of the rules.  The rule itself is black and white but can have many interpretations.  Unfortunately, the only official interpretation of the rules comes from the directors of the AAA.  I think that you will see this rule rewritten this summer.  The rewritten rule will state something to the effect that you can not add an additional game in order for a suspension to be served. 

[Lionheart88]

And then you'll have teams saying "Oh, no, totally not what we were doing.  See, we had initially called them last week, days before that game.  We just finalized the date we'd already discussed.  We just want to get our younger players some varsity experience without worrying that playoff seeding is on the line.  Total coincidence that John Q. Midfielder got that red."  And there won't really be any way to know if they're lying or not.  I've known teams that were honestly still trying to fill in their last game or two during the season.  Are we going to effectively suspend the whole team from that nonconference game they wanted to add just to be sure there's not some gamesmanship going on?

[KCShinn21]

F. Any school representative, athlete, or participant ejected from an event for unsportsmanlike conduct shall automatically be suspended from attending the next comparable event.

Perhaps inserting (tournament, non-conference, conference, state playoffs) after "comparable event" would eliminate the ambiguity of the meaning. I have assumed this to be the significance of "comparable event" but have had sincere people suggest it is denoting the difference between a tournament or regular season game.

[dispossessed]

Rules are written and adopted by the members of the AAA.  You must distinguish between the AAA and those employed to give interpretation of the rules.  The rule itself is black and white but can have many interpretations.  Unfortunately, the only official interpretation of the rules comes from the directors of the AAA.  I think that you will see this rule rewritten this summer.  The rewritten rule will state something to the effect that you can not add an additional game in order for a suspension to be served. 

Unfortunately is right. Then try to have a civil conversation with these fine folks and you will find that they are conveniently "out for the day" or "not available". All powerful and accountable to no one. Throw in non-sensical, ill-prepared and illogical. What a great set of characteristics for an organization to lead high school sports in Arkansas. See NCAA for a comparison.

By the way, at the beginning of the 2013-2014 AAA manual there is a FOREWORD inserted prior to the contents of the manual. Isn't it ironic, that an organization such as the AAA representing schools across the state would spell it FORWARD? I rest my case.

[hogbert]

PA had a player get a red card last night against Sylvan Hills. What you wanna bet they have a game that's "comparable"?

[Arbitro]

PA had a player get a red card last night against Sylvan Hills. What you wanna bet they have a game that's "comparable"?

The online schedule shows VB and VG games against NLR on Monday.  I have no idea how long they have been scheduled.

[Parkview Guy]

PA had a player get a red card last night against Sylvan Hills. What you wanna bet they have a game that's "comparable"?


Always good to have the Walnut Valley folks show up at PA for games.

[NWAguy]

http://www.arpreps.com/aaa-ruling-affects-soccer-showdown/

[Arbitro]

PA had a player get a red card last night against Sylvan Hills. What you wanna bet they have a game that's "comparable"?

The online schedule shows VB and VG games against NLR on Monday.  I have no idea how long they have been scheduled.

NLR's online schedule shows the games as well, with a note at the bottom that the page was last updated on 2/21/14.  Maybe good planning rather than rule bending?  As long as no one gets ejected in Monday's games, of course.

[chaoslord]

I think mandatory suspensions for red cards, while traditional, is silly. Not all red cards are created equal. DOGSO-F 35 yards from goal while trying to win the ball is a very, very different matter than, say, OFFINABUS or violent conduct.

That said, the AAA rule book is awfully written but to it's credit does say "comparable" match. I mean, yeah, who is to say what is a comparable match? I get that argument, kind of. But to see that and try to use it as a basis for a loophole is silly, imo. It's like trying to argue in a board game "But the rules don't say I can't move your pieces in the rulebook anywhere..." and expecting that to be a convincing argument. Yeah, maybe some teams have gotten away with it in the past but that doesn't make it right. Hopefully the AAA addresses this in the offseason, but I'm sad that it's an issue that HAS to be addressed.

[Parkview Guy]

PA had a player get a red card last night against Sylvan Hills. What you wanna bet they have a game that's "comparable"?

The online schedule shows VB and VG games against NLR on Monday.  I have no idea how long they have been scheduled.

NLR's online schedule shows the games as well, with a note at the bottom that the page was last updated on 2/21/14.  Maybe good planning rather than rule bending?  As long as no one gets ejected in Monday's games, of course.

You have to watch those PA people. They figured out before the season a player would get a red card the next to the last game and scheduled another game so the kid could play in the tournament.
The Walnut Valley people are a little paranoid here!!

[NWAguy]

My two cents on this whole thing is essentially the rule needs to be re written (like others have said) what is not being discussed a lot and why I thought the article was interesting is the fact that another team in the 7A west has already been allowed to do this. So if you are a team in the 7A west and one of your players gets a suspension and you don't attempt to absorb that prior to your next conference match are you not at a disadvantage to those teams who are doing it? Had the AAA stopped this from the start, there wouldn't be an issue and you probably wouldn't have teams trying to do it in order to "keep up with the Jones's". All very interesting though.

[chaoslord]

My two cents on this whole thing is essentially the rule needs to be re written (like others have said) what is not being discussed a lot and why I thought the article was interesting is the fact that another team in the 7A west has already been allowed to do this. So if you are a team in the 7A west and one of your players gets a suspension and you don't attempt to absorb that prior to your next conference match are you not at a disadvantage to those teams who are doing it? Had the AAA stopped this from the start, there wouldn't be an issue and you probably wouldn't have teams trying to do it in order to "keep up with the Jones's". All very interesting though.

Yeah, this is a good point. It has already happened this year, apparently. Just taking the word on the street at face value (and I'll be assuming that with the rest of this post so I don't have to keep writing "allegedly"), Rogers scheduled a match on April 28th against Huntsville to absorb a red card from their lsat conference game, which was on the 23rd. Rogers won the next conference game 5-0, and now have also completed their conference schedule since then, winning their final conference game 1-0. Interestingly, Rogers is playing a non-conference game against Van Buren tonight. I don't think there is anything nefarious here, but I always thought that if you were playing a team twice that the second meeting was the one that would count for conference. Not that the result will be any different from the last time, mind.

That said, it's become a "Who's watching the watchmen?" type deal. Why did Rogers get away with it? Honestly, probably a combination of coverage (I see way more stuff about Springdale than anyone else) and the magnitude of this next game being a rivalry game. Doesn't make it right, but I'm not surprised that someone from Har-Ber found out (I'm assuming) and decided to make a phone call. Of course, Har-Ber was also on the losing end of that 5-0, so maybe having "been burned" once before they've decided to make the call this time. It is fascinating and will probably add another level to tonights game. Which makes me sad that I got a last minute assignment instead of being off tonight like I was supposed to be. Was planning on heading over and watching this one, but nope!

[mijally]

PA had a player get a red card last night against Sylvan Hills. What you wanna bet they have a game that's "comparable"?

The online schedule shows VB and VG games against NLR on Monday.  I have no idea how long they have been scheduled.

That game has been on their schedule for a while. I personally saw it when I saw Maumelle's schedule and noticed that PA and NLR were going play Maumelle's girl's team but not Maumelle's boys team this year.  Very disappointed in that considering Maumelle and PA boys played exciting games the last 2 years. And NLR has 5 starters who play on the same club team as 5 Maumelle starters. Club teammates playing against each other in HS would make a great match.

[hogbert]

heck, I may show up for that one, ought to be good. I always like to see what the two "volunteer" coaching brothers at PA may have up their sleeves.

p.s. me thinks someone is a little sensitive. I was just joshing. I got no problem with scheduling a game to get a player eligible. a game is a game. Usually in the 5A central, anything non-conference is tougher than conference.

[Parkview Guy]

heck, I may show up for that one, ought to be good. I always like to see what the two "volunteer" coaching brothers at PA may have up their sleeves.

p.s. me thinks someone is a little sensitive. I was just joshing. I got no problem with scheduling a game to get a player eligible. a game is a game. Usually in the 5A central, anything non-conference is tougher than conference.

Heck, those guys are the bee's knee's. I love a good pot stir'er from Walnut Valley. Need a little action on this board.

[coach cleats]

Glad the tripleA doing the right thing per the article. they really should read fifa rules and at least consider them. Fifa been doing it alot longer than arkansas.

[Lionheart88]

Which time?  The AAA's made decisions both ways at different times, per the article.

[sevenof400]

Glad the tripleA doing the right thing per the article. they really should read fifa rules and at least consider them. Fifa been doing it alot longer than arkansas.

Let's not give the AAA any ideas - I don't want them looking any more like FIFA than they already do. 

[ConwayCoach]

My main issue with officiating in Arkansas is it feels like there is no internal review system in place. It feels as if the referee associating in Arkansas is a brotherhood or club and complaints by coaches, fans, players, etc. are ignored. I was livid with an official after he told me a call he made didn't really matter. I was told by a head ref he would talk to the match official only to see him discussing the matter 2 minutes before kick-off of the next game the ref was an AR for. Further they just laughed and talked for 2 minutes. Now they could have discussed it at length later but I was left very unsatisfied that my concerns weren't being valued. It feels as if they (AAA and referee association in Arkansas) consistently rely and differ to the opinion of match officials. I completely agree with some on here that have suggested that parents, players, and coaching staffs often go to far and are abusive towards match officials. Abuse is never ok and should never occur. I would never and have never abused a match official with offensive language. However, I believe that abuse happens in part (and it maybe a very small part) because there is no way to review a refs performance. Further, I do not believe AAA does enough to review and critic their match officials.

Case and point: in a recent game our team was awarded a free kick about 5 yards outside the box. We requested our ten yards which the center gave us correctly. We had two girls on the ball, one girl ran over the ball (DID NOT TOUCH IT) when the wall broke and charged the ball. By the time the second girl took her shoot part of the wall was a yard maybe two away from the ball and blocked the shot. After complaining and being ignored for 15 mintues I was carded. I wanted an explanation to which he was unwilling or unable to give me. Anyone and everyone who watched that game knew the center made a mistake. In no way did that mistake or any of the other mistakes he made "cost" us the game. It impacted the game but so does any call, good or bad.

After the game I asked for his ref ID number and name so I could report him as I felt this mistake was incredible bad and a ref at a state playoff game should know better and if he didn't he had no business officiating another game that weekend. But my main issue is not with that ref or any ref who makes a bad call, we all make mistakes. My main frustration is there is no system in place to report a ref who makes a mistake. I believe if there was, parents and coaches would react in a much more constructive manner during games. Maybe there is a review process that I am not aware of but that in and of itself is also a failure by the AAA to make sure coaches and parents are informed.

[Leon]

Officials are part of the game and like our players, they too are victims of human error. We expect high performance from them with zero error tolerance. If our players had zero errors than yes, we expect the officials to perform up to the standards. Don't get me wrong, however, there are times when official calls can affect the direction of the game and sometimes the end result. Some errors are tolerable but some aren't. In the end thats all part of the most beautiful sport in the world. Cheers!