• Welcome to Fearless Friday Bulletin Boards. Please login or sign up.

 FF is powered by:        Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Interesting find

Started by JessieP, January 14, 2019, 11:26:13 am

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JessieP

Through my years posting here the private/public school debate has always been a hot topic. Whenever people, myself included, would throw out the financial aid/recruiting argument we were always met with the standard "Most these kids have been here since middle school". The implication was that there is no way kids could be judged that early. I finally started doing some digging and reading up on that subject. After about a month of reading dozens of articles the one common denominator is that athletically gifted kids start to separate from the pack by age 8 or 9. By age 10 the athletic ability is quite clear. Please don't take my word for it, look it up. To say no coach can predict talent in middle school is ludicrous is just plain false.

There is a great article in the LA Times archives about this very subject, it seems Arkansas is not alone in this debate, they simply refuse to deal with the private/public issue, we're one of only 6 states that doesn't separate them. Anyway the author closed the article by stating if a kid is in jr high at a private school, on an athletic team and receiving financial aid it's a pretty safe bet the kid's parents didn't initiate the transfer. They were approached.

AirWarren

Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 11:26:13 am
Through my years posting here the private/public school debate has always been a hot topic. Whenever people, myself included, would throw out the financial aid/recruiting argument we were always met with the standard "Most these kids have been here since middle school". The implication was that there is no way kids could be judged that early. I finally started doing some digging and reading up on that subject. After about a month of reading dozens of articles the one common denominator is that athletically gifted kids start to separate from the pack by age 8 or 9. By age 10 the athletic ability is quite clear. Please don't take my word for it, look it up. To say no coach can predict talent in middle school is ludicrous is just plain false.

There is a great article in the LA Times archives about this very subject, it seems Arkansas is not alone in this debate, they simply refuse to deal with the private/public issue, we're one of only 6 states that doesn't separate them. Anyway the author closed the article by stating if a kid is in jr high at a private school, on an athletic team and receiving financial aid it's a pretty safe bet the kid's parents didn't initiate the transfer. They were approached.

Oh, these schools know the Little Rock talent. All these studs have been approached by people trying to get their services on the football field.

I think one public school in Little Rock had 10 approved school choice transfers into the high school. You can pay money they are football players from the LRSD and other PCSSD schools.

Hogman2018

Quote from: AirWarren on January 14, 2019, 12:48:19 pm
Oh, these schools know the Little Rock talent. All these studs have been approached by people trying to get their services on the football field.

I think one public school in Little Rock had 10 approved school choice transfers into the high school. You can pay money they are football players from the LRSD and other PCSSD schools.
+1

Overdahill

Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 11:26:13 am
Through my years posting here the private/public school debate has always been a hot topic. Whenever people, myself included, would throw out the financial aid/recruiting argument we were always met with the standard "Most these kids have been here since middle school". The implication was that there is no way kids could be judged that early. I finally started doing some digging and reading up on that subject. After about a month of reading dozens of articles the one common denominator is that athletically gifted kids start to separate from the pack by age 8 or 9. By age 10 the athletic ability is quite clear. Please don't take my word for it, look it up. To say no coach can predict talent in middle school is ludicrous is just plain false.

There is a great article in the LA Times archives about this very subject, it seems Arkansas is not alone in this debate, they simply refuse to deal with the private/public issue, we're one of only 6 states that doesn't separate them. Anyway the author closed the article by stating if a kid is in jr high at a private school, on an athletic team and receiving financial aid it's a pretty safe bet the kid's parents didn't initiate the transfer. They were approached.

Bud Light all around (and a Mead for Jessie) ;D

JessieP


JessieP

Now before anyone accuses me of being two-faced let me state that I am not disparaging anything PA has accomplished, they won and won and won. Nothing they achieved was based on cheating, the advantages they enjoy are legal. I also give all the respect in the world to JH, he is the 2018 State 5A football Champion and he deserves it, sure he had 10 other players on the field with him but come on, get serious.

My source of confusion is this, for all the arguing here and in bleachers all over the state, why doesn't the AAA just put an end to it? The solution requires no work, no time spent and would cost a total of ZERO dollars. Simply make private schools that give financial aid play in the 7A. The complainers have nowhere to go after that. Move them up and the debate dies. Why don't they? That's what drives people crazy, there is a simple fix and the powers that be poopoo it. Why are they so afraid of parity?

Jimbo Morphis

Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 02:41:39 pm
Now before anyone accuses me of being two-faced let me state that I am not disparaging anything PA has accomplished, they won and won and won. Nothing they achieved was based on cheating, the advantages they enjoy are legal. I also give all the respect in the world to JH, he is the 2018 State 5A football Champion and he deserves it, sure he had 10 other players on the field with him but come on, get serious.

My source of confusion is this, for all the arguing here and in bleachers all over the state, why doesn't the AAA just put an end to it? The solution requires no work, no time spent and would cost a total of ZERO dollars. Simply make private schools that give financial aid play in the 7A. The complainers have nowhere to go after that. Move them up and the debate dies. Why don't they? That's what drives people crazy, there is a simple fix and the powers that be poopoo it. Why are they so afraid of parity?
The an$wer to your Que$tion I$ ea$y .

PA Dad

January 14, 2019, 08:38:55 pm #7 Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 08:45:27 pm by PA Dad
Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 02:41:39 pm
Now before anyone accuses me of being two-faced let me state that I am not disparaging anything PA has accomplished, they won and won and won. Nothing they achieved was based on cheating, the advantages they enjoy are legal. I also give all the respect in the world to JH, he is the 2018 State 5A football Champion and he deserves it, sure he had 10 other players on the field with him but come on, get serious.

My source of confusion is this, for all the arguing here and in bleachers all over the state, why doesn't the AAA just put an end to it? The solution requires no work, no time spent and would cost a total of ZERO dollars. Simply make private schools that give financial aid play in the 7A. The complainers have nowhere to go after that. Move them up and the debate dies. Why don't they? That's what drives people crazy, there is a simple fix and the powers that be poopoo it. Why are they so afraid of parity?

Is the goal to make the classifications competitive?  If so, PA and LRCA could compete in 7A.  But Conway Christian, Subiaco, and CAC would get killed.  That would not be good or fun for anyone.

I still support success advancement.  It would apply to all schools and be the most fair way to address the problem.

By the way, probably 85% of PA players started at PA in the first or second grade.  Are you seriously claiming that PA is identifying and recruiting them that early?

And even if I accept your premise that coaches can identify a star high school player at 10 years old(and I don't), what evidence is there that it happens at PA?  I'll answer that for you.  None.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 14, 2019, 08:38:55 pm
Is the goal to make the classifications competitive?  If so, PA and LRCA could compete in 7A.  But Conway Christian, Subiaco, and CAC would get killed.  That would not be good or fun for anyone.

I still support success advancement.  It would apply to all schools and be the most fair way to address the problem.

By the way, probably 85% of PA players started at PA in the first or second grade.  Are you seriously claiming that PA is identifying and recruiting them that early?

And even if I accept your premise that coaches can identify a star high school player at 10 years old(and I don't), what evidence is there that it happens at PA?  I'll answer that for you.  None.

Of course they are not identifying them that early. But to address your point, 85% organic players in a great system with great coaches will win. 15% gifted athletes brought into that system in addition to the 85% will tip the scales. I do not think PA is the big recruiter in football, but there is a school that is. The 10 year old was not a random number I pulled from my hind quarter, it's the age college coaches and pediatricians gave when interviewed for the article. Are some 10 year old kids a miss? Sure. Some 5 Star ESPN Top 100 players are a miss as well. Again we have a major breakdown in communication. You get very defensive, Private schools are breaking no rules, none. There is nothing nefarious going on, that's the whole point. The rules in Arkansas pretty much allow every complaint every public school parent has, that's the problem.

I will say one thing, If PA has never ever approached a young studs parent about attending their school to play football, if that has never happened once then PA should take a very serious bow. They would be the only private school, that excels in a given sport that has never done that. They would be the only pristine program in America, possibly the planet, that has never done that. It has always gone on everywhere, except for PA I guess.

You keep going to the word proof. There have been a great many things happen in this life for which there is no proof. Did you see the 30 for 30 on SMU? At one point Dale Hansen was saying if SMU would have dealt in cash only and not ever used official stationary there would have never been a shred of proof. Proof is pretty easy to hide.

OB11

I have absolutely no dog in this fight but I just want to ask a few questions.

If PA is getting players to come in, why are they not doing this in all sports?

Is it only happening in football? If so, why? Why would coaches of the other sports not take advantage of that?

It seems to me that if this was happening at PA, then all of the sports would be playing for a state championship every year. I think Coach Kelley is as good a high school coach as anywhere in the country. You take him out of PA and I don't think they have the success that they have had.

Another question specifically for the PA faithful...If Kelley did leave, would your team still be as good? For how long?

PA Dad

Quote from: OB11 on January 15, 2019, 10:10:04 am
I have absolutely no dog in this fight but I just want to ask a few questions.

If PA is getting players to come in, why are they not doing this in all sports?

Is it only happening in football? If so, why? Why would coaches of the other sports not take advantage of that?

It seems to me that if this was happening at PA, then all of the sports would be playing for a state championship every year. I think Coach Kelley is as good a high school coach as anywhere in the country. You take him out of PA and I don't think they have the success that they have had.

Another question specifically for the PA faithful...If Kelley did leave, would your team still be as good? For how long?

If Kelley leaves, PA will still be good but not dominant.  Kelley is, in my opinion, the primary reason for PA's success.

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 09:45:50 pm
Of course they are not identifying them that early. But to address your point, 85% organic players in a great system with great coaches will win. 15% gifted athletes brought into that system in addition to the 85% will tip the scales. I do not think PA is the big recruiter in football, but there is a school that is. The 10 year old was not a random number I pulled from my hind quarter, it's the age college coaches and pediatricians gave when interviewed for the article. Are some 10 year old kids a miss? Sure. Some 5 Star ESPN Top 100 players are a miss as well. Again we have a major breakdown in communication. You get very defensive, Private schools are breaking no rules, none. There is nothing nefarious going on, that's the whole point. The rules in Arkansas pretty much allow every complaint every public school parent has, that's the problem.

I will say one thing, If PA has never ever approached a young studs parent about attending their school to play football, if that has never happened once then PA should take a very serious bow. They would be the only private school, that excels in a given sport that has never done that. They would be the only pristine program in America, possibly the planet, that has never done that. It has always gone on everywhere, except for PA I guess.

You keep going to the word proof. There have been a great many things happen in this life for which there is no proof. Did you see the 30 for 30 on SMU? At one point Dale Hansen was saying if SMU would have dealt in cash only and not ever used official stationary there would have never been a shred of proof. Proof is pretty easy to hide.

An accusation without proof is nothing more than speculation.  I could accuse anyone of being a child molester. Without proof to back it up I am at best speculating and at worse lying.  No one should have to suffer being accused without proof to back up the accusation.  I certainly do get defensive when that occurs.

I'm not saying PA has never recruited because I don't know that for a fact.  I do know that I am unaware of it happening.  I do know that it is illogical to say that other schools do it so PA must be doing it too.

And, you didn't address schools like Conway Christian and Subiaco.  Do you really want to put them in 7A?

JessieP

Quote from: OB11 on January 15, 2019, 10:10:04 am
I have absolutely no dog in this fight but I just want to ask a few questions.

If PA is getting players to come in, why are they not doing this in all sports?

Is it only happening in football? If so, why? Why would coaches of the other sports not take advantage of that?

It seems to me that if this was happening at PA, then all of the sports would be playing for a state championship every year. I think Coach Kelley is as good a high school coach as anywhere in the country. You take him out of PA and I don't think they have the success that they have had.

Another question specifically for the PA faithful...If Kelley did leave, would your team still be as good? For how long?

Is Alabama good in football? Can they offer scholarships in other sports? Why do they not win championships in all sports? Is Duke good in basketball? Do they offer scholarships in other sports? Why do they not win championships in all sports? Ever heard the old saying about serving 2 masters?

For the 719th time this is not an indictment of PA or any private school, It's questioning why Arkansas refuses to acknowledge the advantages privates enjoy. Don't try and sell that tripe about the size of our state, smaller states separate private schools from public schools in athletics. Even if separation is not the answer there is a resolution that would cost nothing and they refuse to address it. I guess the powers that be here are just smarter than 44 other states. We can't seem to get off the bottom 5 in most academic rankings but by golly our athletic leaders are pure geniuses.

Answer me this, why do the backers of private schools recoil at the accusation? IT'S NOT ILLEGAL IN ARKANSAS! To make the analogy about accusing someone of being a child molester without proof is quite pointless, It's comparing apples to tennis rackets. Child molestation is against the law, it's a vile crime. Recruiting kids to play high school sports in Arkansas is not against the law or rules. Why do private fans get so defensive? Methinks thou dost protest too much. Look at Mater Dei or De La Salle in California. No one hates them, they recruit and openly admit they do. Parents are fine with that. They also have their own trophy, Long beach Poly and other public schools have their own trophy. Everyone wins and fairness rules the day.

I guess I'm just a jealous pleb. I support fairness and competition. Sports are becoming a case of the school with the most money wins. HBO Real Sports did a segment on it last month. Public schools and the parents of PS student are finding it harder and harder to pay for summer camps, passing leagues and all the other incidentals needed to keep up. Kids are saying "We won't win, why bother"? Wonder why participation in Arkansas HS football is dropping at a much faster rate then the rest of the Nation? It's a big mystery. Oh well, maybe we should just take the advice of what one moderator (Not you) once told us on these boards and just suck it and play better. It won't be long until our State has 4 or 5 teams with 80 players and the rest have about 25, but the system works great here.

MDXPHD

January 15, 2019, 01:35:25 pm #13 Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 01:38:57 pm by MDXPHD
.

OB11

Quote from: JessieP on January 15, 2019, 12:05:52 pm
Is Alabama good in football? Can they offer scholarships in other sports? Why do they not win championships in all sports? Is Duke good in basketball? Do they offer scholarships in other sports? Why do they not win championships in all sports? Ever heard the old saying about serving 2 masters?

My response to that would be the difference there and in this case is everyone else in college football and basketball is allowed to recruit and have the same opportunity to get the best players. Alabama football and Duke basketball are just better at it than just about every else. Obviously not every high school is "allowed" to pull players in. So if PA can get away with it, why not do it for all your sports? Again, I have no vested interest in whether PA is the best team in the country or the worst.

JessieP, I'm not trying nor do I want to get into an argument about anything. Just playing devil's advocate here. I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts on this.

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 15, 2019, 12:05:52 pm
Is Alabama good in football? Can they offer scholarships in other sports? Why do they not win championships in all sports? Is Duke good in basketball? Do they offer scholarships in other sports? Why do they not win championships in all sports? Ever heard the old saying about serving 2 masters?

For the 719th time this is not an indictment of PA or any private school, It's questioning why Arkansas refuses to acknowledge the advantages privates enjoy. Don't try and sell that tripe about the size of our state, smaller states separate private schools from public schools in athletics. Even if separation is not the answer there is a resolution that would cost nothing and they refuse to address it. I guess the powers that be here are just smarter than 44 other states. We can't seem to get off the bottom 5 in most academic rankings but by golly our athletic leaders are pure geniuses.

Answer me this, why do the backers of private schools recoil at the accusation? IT'S NOT ILLEGAL IN ARKANSAS! To make the analogy about accusing someone of being a child molester without proof is quite pointless, It's comparing apples to tennis rackets. Child molestation is against the law, it's a vile crime. Recruiting kids to play high school sports in Arkansas is not against the law or rules. Why do private fans get so defensive? Methinks thou dost protest too much. Look at Mater Dei or De La Salle in California. No one hates them, they recruit and openly admit they do. Parents are fine with that. They also have their own trophy, Long beach Poly and other public schools have their own trophy. Everyone wins and fairness rules the day.

I guess I'm just a jealous pleb. I support fairness and competition. Sports are becoming a case of the school with the most money wins. HBO Real Sports did a segment on it last month. Public schools and the parents of PS student are finding it harder and harder to pay for summer camps, passing leagues and all the other incidentals needed to keep up. Kids are saying "We won't win, why bother"? Wonder why participation in Arkansas HS football is dropping at a much faster rate then the rest of the Nation? It's a big mystery. Oh well, maybe we should just take the advice of what one moderator (Not you) once told us on these boards and just suck it and play better. It won't be long until our State has 4 or 5 teams with 80 players and the rest have about 25, but the system works great here.

Recruiting is against the rules.

purpleswag

I personally know a kid who was approached by an alumni and have heard stories or others. It happens. Everyone knows it. Let it go

JessieP

January 15, 2019, 08:37:44 pm #17 Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:41:00 pm by JessieP
Quote from: PA Dad on January 15, 2019, 06:06:25 pm
Recruiting is against the rules.

We've had this discussion before, define recruiting. If Kevin Kelley showed up at some 6th graders house with a Power Point presentation and said "I'm here to try and convince you to attend PA", Yes, that's illegal, No one would ever do that. An assistant coach has a friend who coaches peewee football. His friend tells him about this kid who is head and shoulders above the rest. The Assistant Coach tells his buddy (the peewee coach) to tell the parents what a great opportunity attending PA would be. He tells the parents how to apply for aid and finishes it up with the old "You can never tell anyone about this, we could all get in trouble. Keep it between us and little Jimmy gets a top notch education, great coaching and will probably get a ring" Omerta sets in and no one talks. No proof whatsoever. If anyone questions, the answer is "What recruiting? I had a conversation with a friend. You better be able to back up that accusation or I'll hire an Attorney" The AAA yelps, tucks it's tail and sprints down to Blytheville to make sure there is no grammatical errors on anyone's application.

Seriously, I've met you in person and have even more respect for you since then. Can you honestly say that hiding any "proof" of such acts at the high school level wouldn't be slightly easier then spelling cat? If there is no paper trail and no one talks there is no proof. You know the old football saying us lineman used as scripture "If the ref doesn't see it, it's not holding".


Overdahill

Quote from: JessieP on January 15, 2019, 08:37:44 pm
We've had this discussion before, define recruiting. If Kevin Kelley showed up at some 6th graders house with a Power Point presentation and said "I'm here to try and convince you to attend PA", Yes, that's illegal, No one would ever do that. An assistant coach has a friend who coaches peewee football. His friend tells him about this kid who is head and shoulders above the rest. The Assistant Coach tells his buddy (the peewee coach) to tell the parents what a great opportunity attending PA would be. He tells the parents how to apply for aid and finishes it up with the old "You can never tell anyone about this, we could all get in trouble. Keep it between us and little Jimmy gets a top notch education, great coaching and will probably get a ring" Omerta sets in and no one talks. No proof whatsoever. If anyone questions, the answer is "What recruiting? I had a conversation with a friend. You better be able to back up that accusation or I'll hire an Attorney" The AAA yelps, tucks it's tail and sprints down to Blytheville to make sure there is no grammatical errors on anyone's application.

Seriously, I've met you in person and have even more respect for you since then. Can you honestly say that hiding any "proof" of such acts at the high school level wouldn't be slightly easier then spelling cat? If there is no paper trail and no one talks there is no proof. You know the old football saying us lineman used as scripture "If the ref doesn't see it, it's not holding".

Raise you hand if you were told "you can never tell anyone about this". See, no hands,  ;D Kat

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 15, 2019, 08:37:44 pm
We've had this discussion before, define recruiting. If Kevin Kelley showed up at some 6th graders house with a Power Point presentation and said "I'm here to try and convince you to attend PA", Yes, that's illegal, No one would ever do that. An assistant coach has a friend who coaches peewee football. His friend tells him about this kid who is head and shoulders above the rest. The Assistant Coach tells his buddy (the peewee coach) to tell the parents what a great opportunity attending PA would be. He tells the parents how to apply for aid and finishes it up with the old "You can never tell anyone about this, we could all get in trouble. Keep it between us and little Jimmy gets a top notch education, great coaching and will probably get a ring" Omerta sets in and no one talks. No proof whatsoever. If anyone questions, the answer is "What recruiting? I had a conversation with a friend. You better be able to back up that accusation or I'll hire an Attorney" The AAA yelps, tucks it's tail and sprints down to Blytheville to make sure there is no grammatical errors on anyone's application.

Seriously, I've met you in person and have even more respect for you since then. Can you honestly say that hiding any "proof" of such acts at the high school level wouldn't be slightly easier then spelling cat? If there is no paper trail and no one talks there is no proof. You know the old football saying us lineman used as scripture "If the ref doesn't see it, it's not holding".

I was responding to your assertion that recruiting is not against the rules.

There is a big difference in saying recruiting can be hidden and proving that it happened.  Anything is possible.  I'm not even saying that recruiting doesn't happen.  It may.  But, I won't assert that as a fact unless I can back it up with proof.  That's the only point I'm trying to make.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 10:24:02 am
I was responding to your assertion that recruiting is not against the rules.

There is a big difference in saying recruiting can be hidden and proving that it happened.  Anything is possible.  I'm not even saying that recruiting doesn't happen.  It may.  But, I won't assert that as a fact unless I can back it up with proof.  That's the only point I'm trying to make.

We are virtually on the same page. I'm actually not opposed to schools "Recruiting", This is America and a parent has the right to send their child to any school for any reason. What I'm saying is when it comes to extracurricular activities, such as football, it is grossly unfair to have schools with vastly different rules and limitations to compete for the same title. This is not a time consuming cost prohibitive fix, It can be rectified with a simple swipe of a pen. Why does Arkansas refuse to acknowledge what the overwhelming majority do? And lest anyone try to turn this into a "Political" point or start in with any "Participation Trophy" or "Snowflake" comment think about this, EVERY "Red State" in the Nation, except Arkansas, separates Private/Public when it comes to titles.

It is quite obvious that we have a situation where our governing body is fearful of certain schools. In California, Texas, Florida, Ohio, Alabama and 39 other States the schools fear the governing body.

farfromgroovins

January 16, 2019, 02:44:36 pm #21 Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:51:08 pm by farfromgroovins
I went to a private school (bball only) but that was 30 years ago.  Once the internet hit, everyone started talking about the unfair advantage private schools had in attracting talented youth to their schools (aka recruiting.)  Our AD was on the AAA and his stance was that some private schools were "parochial" meaning they are tied to a church and it is kids from the church there.  Most could have worn jerseys from 30-60 years ago because the last name on it hadn't changed (parents/aunts & uncles/grandparents.)

That's when the multiplier and playing up a class went into place.  It hurt some of the private (especially parochial) schools in that they were playing up a class and didn't have numbers or size to play up.  The question with your plan is how do you police it?  There isn't much policing going on at the AAA now so if you just check a box on a form;
Are you private?   ___Yes  ___No
If yes, do you recruit?  ___Yes   ___No

Good luck with that.  And it wouldn't be fair to apply just to private schools.  Public does it too.
Private schools can offer tuition incentives and nice facilities but a public school can offer a better coach or program (usually better facilities in those cases.)  I've heard it on these boards before (especially on the formerly known as 7A board) that type of "hopping around" (aka non-recruiting) was ok because kids should be able to play in a better program or for a better coach  ???
Incentives are incentives.....

Haven't posted in any of these boards in a while and I don't know why this topic sparked an interest because even though my kids have graduated from private schools, they were not involved in sports and their teams were usually not that competitive (aka sucked.)  But I have to wonder if they started winning would they have been accused of "attracting talented youth" too?
As long as you're mediocre.....

Cheers!

RazorDad

Old studies like that cited in the LA Times archive are the reason the US Soccer men's national program has been such a failure. That program tried to identify and develop atheletes at 9-11 years of age. As it turned out, those identified were early developers, who stood out because they had physical superiority on the field, which makes a huge difference at that early age. However, they failed to develop the technical skills necessary once they reached 15-16 and were passed by the late developers who had to rely on skill to acheive until they physically matured. Some recent studies have shown that the majority of highly successful soccer players were late physical developers.

I don't think it is realistic to think that this type of recruiting at 9-10 years of age is happening here in Arkansas. The evidence does not support it. Looking at the facts, you can only come to the conclusion that if recruiting is happening, it is kindergarteners and early elementary school atheletes that are targeted. Oh, and where are all the D1 offers for these recruited superstars that so unfairly tilt the playing field?

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

Jessie - although I have a lot to say on this subject, I choose to stay silent.  However, you are continuing to say that we are one of only 6 states that separate private and public.  That is absolutely false.  It is more like there are only 4 states that do separate - Texas, Maryland, Tennessee, Virginia - and 4 that partially separate - Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and Mississippi.  That means 42 states play private and public together for championships.  My data may be a few years old, but I'm sure it is very close to the real number.

JessieP

January 16, 2019, 05:48:28 pm #24 Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 06:07:47 pm by JessieP
Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on January 16, 2019, 04:05:15 pm
Jessie - although I have a lot to say on this subject, I choose to stay silent.  However, you are continuing to say that we are one of only 6 states that separate private and public.  That is absolutely false.  It is more like there are only 4 states that do separate - Texas, Maryland, Tennessee, Virginia - and 4 that partially separate - Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and Mississippi.  That means 42 states play private and public together for championships.  My data may be a few years old, but I'm sure it is very close to the real number.

I'd check your sources. A few weeks ago, on these boards, someone posted a link talking about Mater Dei's upset victory over De La Salle in the California Private School State Championship. In fact Mater Dei list that very title on their media relations web page. Can I tell them Coach DePriest say's you're lying? Shiloh Christian? I bet you do have a lot to say. Let me guess, I'm wrong the currant program in no way shape or form is unfair. I must be psychic!

One thing that is quite perplexing is how the backers of private schools tell me, or whoever else brings this point up, how wrong we are. They scream about the lack of real advantages and how the AAA is fair and plays no favorites. The backers of public schools agree with the point. Riddle me this, are the majority of athletes in Arkansas in public or private school? The simple answer is the overwhelming number are in public. Now in a fair and just system the overwhelming majority would have the greatest say. In Arkansas the group with the landslide numbers have the least say. 

There really no reason to become defensive, the fact of the matter is that this debate is moot. We may as well debate who would win in a fight, Superman or Batman. That topic has more chance of becoming reality then chance the AAA listening to the masses.

Come on now, do you really think California doesn't separate the two? Faith based private schools in the same classifications as public schools? Really? California? Have you seen any news in the last couple decades? California?

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 11:26:13 am
Through my years posting here the private/public school debate has always been a hot topic. Whenever people, myself included, would throw out the financial aid/recruiting argument we were always met with the standard "Most these kids have been here since middle school". The implication was that there is no way kids could be judged that early. I finally started doing some digging and reading up on that subject. After about a month of reading dozens of articles the one common denominator is that athletically gifted kids start to separate from the pack by age 8 or 9. By age 10 the athletic ability is quite clear. Please don't take my word for it, look it up. To say no coach can predict talent in middle school is ludicrous is just plain false.

There is a great article in the LA Times archives about this very subject, it seems Arkansas is not alone in this debate, they simply refuse to deal with the private/public issue, we're one of only 6 states that doesn't separate them. Anyway the author closed the article by stating if a kid is in jr high at a private school, on an athletic team and receiving financial aid it's a pretty safe bet the kid's parents didn't initiate the transfer. They were approached.

I'm curious about the source of your information.  Can you share it?

This article is five years old but it lists every state.  According to the article very few states have separate public and private classifications.

http://highschoolsports.cleveland.com/news/article/-4000324031846785879/ohsaas-competitive-balance-referendum-the-latest-round-in-a-national-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/

PA Dad

January 16, 2019, 07:37:07 pm #26 Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 07:56:50 pm by PA Dad
This article from 2017 says privates compete with publics in California.

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/high-school/joe-davidson/article186537858.html

PA Dad

January 16, 2019, 08:13:54 pm #27 Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 08:16:53 pm by PA Dad
Quote from: JessieP on January 16, 2019, 05:48:28 pm
I'd check your sources. A few weeks ago, on these boards, someone posted a link talking about Mater Dei's upset victory over De La Salle in the California Private School State Championship. In fact Mater Dei list that very title on their media relations web page. Can I tell them Coach DePriest say's you're lying? Shiloh Christian? I bet you do have a lot to say. Let me guess, I'm wrong the currant program in no way shape or form is unfair. I must be psychic!

One thing that is quite perplexing is how the backers of private schools tell me, or whoever else brings this point up, how wrong we are. They scream about the lack of real advantages and how the AAA is fair and plays no favorites. The backers of public schools agree with the point. Riddle me this, are the majority of athletes in Arkansas in public or private school? The simple answer is the overwhelming number are in public. Now in a fair and just system the overwhelming majority would have the greatest say. In Arkansas the group with the landslide numbers have the least say. 

There really no reason to become defensive, the fact of the matter is that this debate is moot. We may as well debate who would win in a fight, Superman or Batman. That topic has more chance of becoming reality then chance the AAA listening to the masses.

Come on now, do you really think California doesn't separate the two? Faith based private schools in the same classifications as public schools? Really? California? Have you seen any news in the last couple decades? California?

Mater Dei versus De La Salle was the Open Division championship game.  It was not a private league.  The Open Division teams are chosen by California's version of our AAA.  The Open Division includes both public and private schools.

See these articles:

https://highschoolfootballamerica.com/big-change-made-to-california-open-division-championship-game/

https://usatodayhss.com/2016/cif-southern-section-gets-new-look-for-playoffs-division-1-could-be-among-best-in-nation

Note that Mater Dei is in the same division as Corona Centennial which is a public school.  In 2015 Corina Centennial beat a private school to win the Open Division championship.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 07:37:07 pm
This article from 2017 says privates compete with public's in California.

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/high-school/joe-davidson/article186537858.html

They compete in the CIF brackets. The CIF brackets are a relatively new thing, it's similar to the BCS. If you look deeper you'll see California has numerous State Champions, Southern Section, Central Valley, Northern Region, Private, Public and a couple other classifications. It's a massive State and it is unfair to compare it to other states. Along with that they have classifications depending on size.

I still don't know why the privates here get so up in arms? You win, taunt away. The public schools have no resource to change the system. A few years ago KAIT did a week long feature on the declining numbers in Arkansas high school football. The main reasons they attributed to it were fear of CTE, Cost and lack of parity. The issue is beyond anyone's control. The next two can be rectified, very easily. There is no desire to address that here so let's just sit back and watch our beloved football die. The simple answer has been spelled out on these boards numerous times by numerous people, in fact this is the first time I'm saying it. The reason the Private schools that excel in football don't move up is because they know the monopoly would die. The powers that be will not put their foot down and make them. It's a classic case of the few dictating the rules to the many. Like KAIT said at the conclusion of their feature, losing 10-17% of your players every year is not a sustainable model.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on January 16, 2019, 04:05:15 pm
Jessie - although I have a lot to say on this subject, I choose to stay silent.  However, you are continuing to say that we are one of only 6 states that separate private and public.  That is absolutely false.  It is more like there are only 4 states that do separate - Texas, Maryland, Tennessee, Virginia - and 4 that partially separate - Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and Mississippi.  That means 42 states play private and public together for championships.  My data may be a few years old, but I'm sure it is very close to the real number.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but there are certainly other states who have different models than partial or total separation in an attempt to close the gap. But yes, without checking your facts, those numbers may be accurate. When I researched, Tennessee private's were placed in a different class for playoffs if they chose to offer financial aid to their athletes, I believe. They have now separated the two. I'm sure if someone had the time, there have been extensive case studies done on the topic and could pull numbers relatively quickly.

I'm pretty sure Indiana does success advancement, which would be the best option for our state, IMO. And I know within the last year or two, Pennsylvania has entertained the idea of separation.

Also, maybe PA just has kids who have July birthdays. They're all Outliers and that's why they're better.

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 16, 2019, 08:24:14 pm
They compete in the CIF brackets. The CIF brackets are a relatively new thing, it's similar to the BCS. If you look deeper you'll see California has numerous State Champions, Southern Section, Central Valley, Northern Region, Private, Public and a couple other classifications. It's a massive State and it is unfair to compare it to other states. Along with that they have classifications depending on size.

I still don't know why the privates here get so up in arms? You win, taunt away. The public schools have no resource to change the system. A few years ago KAIT did a week long feature on the declining numbers in Arkansas high school football. The main reasons they attributed to it were fear of CTE, Cost and lack of parity. The issue is beyond anyone's control. The next two can be rectified, very easily. There is no desire to address that here so let's just sit back and watch our beloved football die. The simple answer has been spelled out on these boards numerous times by numerous people, in fact this is the first time I'm saying it. The reason the Private schools that excel in football don't move up is because they know the monopoly would die. The powers that be will not put their foot down and make them. It's a classic case of the few dictating the rules to the many. Like KAIT said at the conclusion of their feature, losing 10-17% of your players every year is not a sustainable model.

JessieP you're being fact checked.  You spouted supposed facts to support your argument and your facts are wrong.  There is no private league in California.  You said there is.  The vast majority of states do not separate privates and publics.  You said they do.

Facts matter.  If they do not then quit stating false facts.

The privates do not dominate in any classification except 5A.  That's hardly a lack of parity.  Public schools won the championship in every classification except 5A.  No parity?

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 08:33:49 pm
JessieP you're being fact checked.  You spouted supposed facts to support your argument and your facts are wrong.  There is no private league in California.  You said there is.  The vast majority of states do not separate privates and publics.  You said they do.

Facts matter.  If they do not then quit stating false facts.

The privates do not dominate in any classification except 5A.  That's hardly a lack of parity.  Public schools won the championship in every classification except 5A.  No parity?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_League
Facts do matter.

I guess people get facts from different places. Everything I've read say's they are separate. The Open Division is a voted on for entertainment tournament. Mater Dei plays in the Trinity league, It's a private school only league, the CIF mandated that. It was the case in the 80's when I was in college, it's the case now.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 07:37:07 pm
This article from 2017 says privates compete with publics in California.

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/high-school/joe-davidson/article186537858.html

Facts matter. One teeny tiny point you seemed to have missed here. The article say's they recruit, people transfer students for the whole purpose of playing football and no one complains. Facts matter, private schools recruit and that's fine. Why doesn't our state just turn the light on and just say it? It would remove having people defend the practice by saying "Every player on our roster has been here since their parents started dating".

Did you ever see the Documentary on Rudy Giuliani? He started out as a Federal Prosecutor in NY. He crippled the mob, he said that in order finally break the mobs stranglehold on the city they needed proof for the RICO predicates. He said there was always speculation but little proof, Speculation is the mother of proof. Speculation is not a bad word, Speculation more often then not leads to proof. Speculation is not false accusation. If you hear something once or twice it's probably rumor, If you hear the same thing over and over and over again there is probably a little fire fueling that smoke.

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 16, 2019, 08:58:04 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_League
Facts do matter.

I guess people get facts from different places. Everything I've read say's they are separate. The Open Division is a voted on for entertainment tournament. Mater Dei plays in the Trinity league, It's a private school only league, the CIF mandated that. It was the case in the 80's when I was in college, it's the case now.

I appreciate the citation to your source.

I checked and it appears that you are correct that the Trinity League is all private schools.  But, they also compete with private schools based on the articles I posted earlier.

Your point in earlier posts was that California seperates public's and privates.  My research, which I have posted, disputes that.  And your assertion that only 6 states do not separate privates and publics is way off the mark.

If privates are so dominant please explain why no private won a championship in any classification except 5A.

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 16, 2019, 09:14:40 pm
Facts matter. One teeny tiny point you seemed to have missed here. The article say's they recruit, people transfer students for the whole purpose of playing football and no one complains. Facts matter, private schools recruit and that's fine. Why doesn't our state just turn the light on and just say it? It would remove having people defend the practice by saying "Every player on our roster has been here since their parents started dating".

Did you ever see the Documentary on Rudy Giuliani? He started out as a Federal Prosecutor in NY. He crippled the mob, he said that in order finally break the mobs stranglehold on the city they needed proof for the RICO predicates. He said there was always speculation but little proof, Speculation is the mother of proof. Speculation is not a bad word, Speculation more often then not leads to proof. Speculation is not false accusation. If you hear something once or twice it's probably rumor, If you hear the same thing over and over and over again there is probably a little fire fueling that smoke.

God help us all.  If repetition proves reliability we have lost all logic.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 09:18:53 pm
God help us all.  If repetition proves reliability we have lost all logic.

Not at all. Repeating a lie doesn't make it a truth. I still stand by my opinion that if PA doesn't recruit, on some level, then they are by far the only private that doesn't. I have no proof that they do. I can't say that about our defending State Champ but I can about PA. I've always assumed everyone knew it went on in private schools with a strong athletic team. I have no problem with it. I just think that they should be some sort of offset for it. You know how Al Gore has made hundreds of millions of dollars selling carbon offsets, you pollute and give us money we'll plant a tree for you, that type of thing but without the Gore slime factor. You recruit, you play the highest possible.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 09:16:28 pm
I appreciate the citation to your source.

I checked and it appears that you are correct that the Trinity League is all private schools.  But, they also compete with private schools based on the articles I posted earlier.

Your point in earlier posts was that California seperates public's and privates.  My research, which I have posted, disputes that.  And your assertion that only 6 states do not separate privates and publics is way off the mark.

If privates are so dominant please explain why no private won a championship in any classification except 5A.

When I said separate I was referring to the majority of states that have various titles. They have Championships that only private schools can win and Championships that only public schools can win. They can play each other but there are levels of separation. I read one thing that listed 12 various State Champions in California football.

You know I appreciate everything PA has accomplished. I rooted for them in the Championship (I'd root for Al Queda over lrc) I enjoy watching them play. I just can't get past the fact that they play in 5A with a roster of 79 in a school of 345. 32% of PA's population plays football and football players receive financial aid at a higher percentage then the student body at large. I'm sorry but that isn't organic success. Why do they not play in the 7A? No one has said they cheat or their wins are tainted. All I have ever said or heard other people say is level the field.

I have a question for you, Why would PA not want to play against the best of the best?

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on January 16, 2019, 10:47:21 pm
When I said separate I was referring to the majority of states that have various titles. They have Championships that only private schools can win and Championships that only public schools can win. They can play each other but there are levels of separation. I read one thing that listed 12 various State Champions in California football.

You know I appreciate everything PA has accomplished. I rooted for them in the Championship (I'd root for Al Queda over lrc) I enjoy watching them play. I just can't get past the fact that they play in 5A with a roster of 79 in a school of 345. 32% of PA's population plays football and football players receive financial aid at a higher percentage then the student body at large. I'm sorry but that isn't organic success. Why do they not play in the 7A? No one has said they cheat or their wins are tainted. All I have ever said or heard other people say is level the field.

I have a question for you, Why would PA not want to play against the best of the best?

I'll refrain from reiterating what you actually posted.

PA does not have 79 players on its roster until the freshmen are included after the junior high schedule ends.  It's usually in the mid 50's.

If you have read my prior posts you know I'm in favor of PA moving up.  PA could petition to move up and I have no idea why that hasn't happened.  I think PA could compete, but not dominate, in 6A.  Greenwood, PB, ED and others would be stiff competition.  PA would probably be middle of the pack in 7A.

Now,please answer my question.  If there is no parity why is 5A the only classification a private won?  Isn't this really a complaint about PA and LRCA?  What other private is dominant?

GRN R H-2 X-Deep Over

What would the logistics of an all private school league look like?

If I am correct LR Catholic is the only private school in the 7A/6A, and then the others are all small schools. Maybe Catholic could stay, treat 7A like an open division of sorts. Perhaps the other private schools could have their own playoffs to save on travel.

purpleswag

Quote from: JessieP on January 16, 2019, 08:24:14 pm
They compete in the CIF brackets. The CIF brackets are a relatively new thing, it's similar to the BCS. If you look deeper you'll see California has numerous State Champions, Southern Section, Central Valley, Northern Region, Private, Public and a couple other classifications. It's a massive State and it is unfair to compare it to other states. Along with that they have classifications depending on size.

I still don't know why the privates here get so up in arms? You win, taunt away. The public schools have no resource to change the system. A few years ago KAIT did a week long feature on the declining numbers in Arkansas high school football. The main reasons they attributed to it were fear of CTE, Cost and lack of parity. The issue is beyond anyone's control. The next two can be rectified, very easily. There is no desire to address that here so let's just sit back and watch our beloved football die. The simple answer has been spelled out on these boards numerous times by numerous people, in fact this is the first time I'm saying it. The reason the Private schools that excel in football don't move up is because they know the monopoly would die. The powers that be will not put their foot down and make them. It's a classic case of the few dictating the rules to the many. Like KAIT said at the conclusion of their feature, losing 10-17% of your players every year is not a sustainable model.

And I'm sure that there facts were high scrutinized before they aired that segment. Has anyone thought about the fact that the kids that don't play have better things to do now than ever before and that's why football is losing numbers.

Back in the day you didn't have as many choices for entertainment or friends unless you did something like football or like wise.

CTE May scare a few off but I doubt it's as many as you think. Personally, I think the kids who never get to play and know they may never get to play are going and Doing things they are good at with like minded people.

JessieP

January 17, 2019, 09:49:02 am #40 Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 03:08:26 pm by JessieP
Quote from: PA Dad on January 16, 2019, 11:11:29 pm
I'll refrain from reiterating what you actually posted.

PA does not have 79 players on its roster until the freshmen are included after the junior high schedule ends.  It's usually in the mid 50's.

If you have read my prior posts you know I'm in favor of PA moving up.  PA could petition to move up and I have no idea why that hasn't happened.  I think PA could compete, but not dominate, in 6A.  Greenwood, PB, ED and others would be stiff competition.  PA would probably be middle of the pack in 7A.

Now,please answer my question.  If there is no parity why is 5A the only classification a private won?  Isn't this really a complaint about PA and LRCA?  What other private is dominant?

I spend the majority of my time discussing the 5A because that's the classification I follow the most. I have heard similar complaints about private schools in other classifications in other sports. I do see your point about PA and lrc, although I wish you didn't include lrc in the same vein as PA, their backers will be positively giddy reading that. Let's face it, lrc got over the hump because of one player. Without that qb they get bounced in the playoffs by a lopsided score, as in years past. But that's the point, that's the thrust of everyone's frustration, Why do they stay in the 5A? The feeling is that if they didn't dominate in the 5A a phone call would be made and they would be 4A 20 seconds after the AD said "Bye". Same reason they don't get moved up. Their advantages would be much less an issue in the 6A and a non factor in the 7A and they know it.

I was talking with an old friend who lives in Newport Beach, he has 2 daughters that play soccer in high school and attend a private school. This was back before the state championship, I ask him about Mater Dei and it's athletic powerhouse in regards to financial aid. He told me tuition was close to 30k and 20% of the students receive aid. I ask was that true among athletes? He laughed and said of course not, it's much higher. Now I'll clean it up for the FF Boards but he said "that's the whole "ever lovin" point. Do you think they have tryouts of existing students and say if you make the team we'll pick up the tab? No that decision is made before they step on campus". Mater Dei and other schools are not criticized for their practices, everyone knows they do it, it's transparent. The trade off is they don't get to feast on middle division teams, they play at the top. In fact Californians get behind their privates when they play Bishop Gorman or IMG, they take pride in the teams.

We all know there are idiot sons of billionaires walking the halls of Harvard. Sons who academically wouldn't qualify to Arizona State if Grandpa's name wasn't on the Law Library. It's always been that way. The thing that drives me to distraction is how Arkansas denies if happens here. Back in the 70's USC came under fire for accepting a higher number of Prop 42 football players. They claimed to not accept P42 athletes without a waiver, the waiver was to be granted blindly by a third party. A disgruntled employee spilled the beans to the OC Register, she said the applications were actually dogeared, a simple fold at the top right corner did the trick. Did this cause outrage? No, it's drew a simple "Duh" from the population. That practice would have continued for decades had "Proof" not fell into the Pac-8 (at the time) lap. I think MDXPHD's thought of "If a certain percentage of your athlete's receive aid you play at the top" is the only true way to level the field. If your a starter on a private school team and you're getting financial aid, you're getting paid to play, you may not see any money but make no mistake, you're a bought athlete.

Overdahill

Quote from: JessieP on January 17, 2019, 09:49:02 am
I spend the majority of my time discussing the 5A because that's the classification I follow the most. I have heard similar complaints about private schools in other classifications in other sports. I do see your point about PA and lrc, although I wish you didn't include lrc in the same vein as PA, their backers will be positively giddy reading that. Let's face it, lrc got over the hump because of one player. Without that qb they get bounced in the playoffs by a lopsided score, as in years past. But that's the point, that's the thrust of everyone's frustration, Why do they stay in the 5A? The feeling is that if they didn't dominate in the 5A a phone call would be made and they would be 4A 20 seconds after the AD said "Bye". Same reason they don't get moved up. Their advantages would be much less an issue in the 6A and a non factor in the 7A and they know it.

I was talking with an old friend who lives in Newport Beach, he has 2 daughters that play soccer in high school and attend a private school. This was back before the state championship, I ask him about Mater Dei and it's athletic powerhouse in regards to financial aid. He told me tuition was close to 30k and 20% of the students receive aid. I ask was that true among athletes? He laughed and said of course not, it's much higher. Now I'll clean it up for the FF Boards but he said "that's the whole "ever lovin" point. Do you think they have tryouts of existing students and say if you make the team we'll pick up the tab? No that decision is made before they step on campus". Mater Dei and other schools are not criticized for their practices, everyone knows they do it, it's transparent. The trade off is they don't get to feast on middle division teams, they play at the top. In fact Californians get behind their privates when they play Bishop Gorman or IMG, they take pride in the teams.

We all know there are idiots sons of billionaires walking the halls of Harvard. Sons who academically wouldn't qualify to Arizona State if Grandpa's name wasn't on the Law Library. It's always been that way. The thing that drives me to distraction is how Arkansas denies if happens here. Back in the 70's USC came under fire for accepting a higher number of Prop 42 football players. They claimed to not accept P42 athletes without a waiver, the waiver was to be granted blindly by a third party. A disgruntled employee spilled the beans to the OC Register, she said the applications were actually dogeared, a simple fold at the top right corner did the trick. Did this cause outrage? No, it's drew a simple "Duh" from the population. That practice would have continued for decades had "Proof" not fell into the Pac-8 (at the time) lap. I think MDXPHD's thought of "If a certain percentage of your athlete's receive aid you play at the top" is the only true way to level the field. If your a starter on a private school team and you're getting financial aid, you're getting paid to play, you may not see any money but make no mistake, you're a bought athlete.


Grond

Quote from: RazorDad on January 16, 2019, 03:21:00 pm
Old studies like that cited in the LA Times archive are the reason the US Soccer men's national program has been such a failure. That program tried to identify and develop atheletes at 9-11 years of age. As it turned out, those identified were early developers, who stood out because they had physical superiority on the field, which makes a huge difference at that early age. However, they failed to develop the technical skills necessary once they reached 15-16 and were passed by the late developers who had to rely on skill to acheive until they physically matured. Some recent studies have shown that the majority of highly successful soccer players were late physical developers.

I don't think it is realistic to think that this type of recruiting at 9-10 years of age is happening here in Arkansas. The evidence does not support it. Looking at the facts, you can only come to the conclusion that if recruiting is happening, it is kindergarteners and early elementary school atheletes that are targeted. Oh, and where are all the D1 offers for these recruited superstars that so unfairly tilt the playing field?


Well said, RazorDad. But you will find, when these private/public & Pulaski Academy debates get rolling, the INTELLIGENT comments tend to get overlooked.  ::)

JessieP

Quote from: Grond on January 18, 2019, 08:08:07 pm

Well said, RazorDad. But you will find, when these private/public & Pulaski Academy debates get rolling, the INTELLIGENT comments tend to get overlooked.  ::)

I'll respond, seeing as how that comment was so INTELLIGENT. Where are all the D1 athletes? The majority of them in the 5A go to private schools. PA has a few every year, most 5A schools, with twice or three times the enrollment, have 1 every few years. To listen to RazorDad and other lrc backers they had a qb this year where playing D1 football would be beneath him. He'll surely start at QB for the Razorbacks this year and then jump to the NFL where Brady, Brees and Mahomes will retire out of sheer intimidation. That's after he leads the Hogs to the Final 4 this year. It doesn't take D1 talent to tip the scales in 5A football, a few gifted athletes can do it.

As far as Soccer goes the Times did say that many believe the shortcoming is because there isn't enough quality coaches at the high school level in America to foster world class growth, what few we have usually work at the club level. To say there could only be recruiting at the kindergarten level is beneath moronic, it's sub-moronic. Everything you'll find in literature states superior athletes start to distance themselves at the onset of puberty. That's the general conclusion, with the exception of the backers of private schools on these boards.

It's funny how post stating the same position you espouse seem so INTELLIGENT. I will state clearly that I have no ironclad proof private schools in Arkansas recruit, that is indeed a fact. Another fact is that I have no ironclad proof China exist, I've never been there. Yes, I'll give you all that. I also am 100% positive that anyone who thinks superior athleticism wouldn't be apparent by the 6th grade is just plain stupid. 

Grond

Quote from: JessieP on January 14, 2019, 11:26:13 am
Through my years posting here the private/public school debate has always been a hot topic. Whenever people, myself included, would throw out the financial aid/recruiting argument we were always met with the standard "Most these kids have been here since middle school". The implication was that there is no way kids could be judged that early. I finally started doing some digging and reading up on that subject. After about a month of reading dozens of articles the one common denominator is that athletically gifted kids start to separate from the pack by age 8 or 9. By age 10 the athletic ability is quite clear. Please don't take my word for it, look it up. To say no coach can predict talent in middle school is ludicrous is just plain false.

There is a great article in the LA Times archives about this very subject, it seems Arkansas is not alone in this debate, they simply refuse to deal with the private/public issue, we're one of only 6 states that doesn't separate them. Anyway the author closed the article by stating if a kid is in jr high at a private school, on an athletic team and receiving financial aid it's a pretty safe bet the kid's parents didn't initiate the transfer. They were approached.

In my opinion, your original comment about early talent is somewhat correct.

My opinion is based on my experience of having a son that plays NCAA D2 college football, and having coached a young man that is playing NAIA college basketball.

For positions like runningbacks in football, or guards in basketball, these players tend to show speed and athletisism at an early age (though not always). These positions only require average height.

But for positions like offensive linemen, or centers in basketball, an analysis of early development is a poor method of evaluation. That is because these positions require SIZE that usually is not fully reached until high school (or early college).

The PROBLEM with choosing athletic "superstars" at a young age is: sorting out the 90% of talented youth athletes that have simply matured early. Which brings me to The Hairy Leg Test...... :o

THE HAIRY LEG TEST
This is not a joke. It was explained to me by a 7th grade boys basketball coach. And it goes something like this: How does a 7th grade coach figure out what players are likely to develop into good high school athletes?

If the young man has a lot of talent, but has the growth characteristics of a typical 7th grader, then there is a chance he will develop.

But, if the boy is showing maturity characteristics like a young adult, then he is likely to not grow anymore.

Sadly, I have seen some young athletes have a really rough time in sports, because in the 5th grade they were the Next Great Thing; but by high school, they were mediocre (at best). They fail to meet unfair expectations.

JessieP

Quote from: Grond on January 18, 2019, 09:13:12 pm
In my opinion, your original comment about early talent is somewhat correct.

My opinion is based on my experience of having a son that plays NCAA D2 college football, and having coached a young man that is playing NAIA college basketball.

For positions like runningbacks in football, or guards in basketball, these players tend to show speed and athletisism at an early age (though not always). These positions only require average height.

But for positions like offensive linemen, or centers in basketball, an analysis of early development is a poor method of evaluation. That is because these positions require SIZE that usually is not fully reached until high school (or early college).

The PROBLEM with choosing athletic "superstars" at a young age is: sorting out the 90% of talented youth athletes that have simply matured early. Which brings me to The Hairy Leg Test...... :o

THE HAIRY LEG TEST
This is not a joke. It was explained to me by a 7th grade boys basketball coach. And it goes something like this: How does a 7th grade coach figure out what players are likely to develop into good high school athletes?

If the young man has a lot of talent, but has the growth characteristics of a typical 7th grader, then there is a chance he will develop.

But, if the boy is showing maturity characteristics like a young adult, then he is likely to not grow anymore.

Sadly, I have seen some young athletes have a really rough time in sports, because in the 5th grade they were the Next Great Thing; but by high school, they were mediocre (at best). They fail to meet unfair expectations.

Forget for a moment that I'm obnoxious and be brutally honest. I'd be willing to bet your Son was one of the better athletes among his peers before middle school. D2 is still college football, every roster in the NFL has D2 players on it. Great athletes do not become great in grade 11. You can coach a hard working kid up to good but great is a gift from the Lord. Are there exceptions? Of course. I myself pointed out that some 5 Star elite football recruits wash out in college, some walk-ons excel. But honestly think about it, as a coach you know full well that you could watch 25 6th graders play flag football and you could pick out 10 that will be superior high school players. I could pick 2 or 3 and I'm dumb as a sack of rocks. These people that say you can't spot talent before middle school are either lying or huffing paint.

Grond

Quote from: JessieP on January 18, 2019, 10:03:56 pm
Forget for a moment that I'm obnoxious and be brutally honest. I'd be willing to bet your Son was one of the better athletes among his peers before middle school. D2 is still college football, every roster in the NFL has D2 players on it. Great athletes do not become great in grade 11. You can coach a hard working kid up to good but great is a gift from the Lord. Are there exceptions? Of course. I myself pointed out that some 5 Star elite football recruits wash out in college, some walk-ons excel. But honestly think about it, as a coach you know full well that you could watch 25 6th graders play flag football and you could pick out 10 that will be superior high school players. I could pick 2 or 3 and I'm dumb as a sack of rocks. These people that say you can't spot talent before middle school are either lying or huffing paint.

My son was always a good football player, but he was not dominant until his 9th grade year and his Senior year. But he was also not D1 level.

Any P.E. coach will look at a class, and see children that look athletically gifted. But I find it unlikely that PA is out scouting for 9 year olds.

But there are some other realities for private schools. To exist, a private school MUST recruit on some level. And PA's academic and athletic accomplishments are powerful recruiting tools......for the PARENTS.

The real question is: How many players in the PA football program have PARENTS that played college football? Does PA seek out UA/ASU/UCA football grads?

Keep in mind that a lot of NFL players send their kids to these insanely talented private schools across the nation. Has PA's football success created a situation where they don't have to recruit?

JessieP

Quote from: Grond on January 18, 2019, 11:04:59 pm
My son was always a good football player, but he was not dominant until his 9th grade year and his Senior year. But he was also not D1 level.

Any P.E. coach will look at a class, and see children that look athletically gifted. But I find it unlikely that PA is out scouting for 9 year olds.

But there are some other realities for private schools. To exist, a private school MUST recruit on some level. And PA's academic and athletic accomplishments are powerful recruiting tools......for the PARENTS.

The real question is: How many players in the PA football program have PARENTS that played college football? Does PA seek out UA/ASU/UCA football grads?

Keep in mind that a lot of NFL players send their kids to these insanely talented private schools across the nation. Has PA's football success created a situation where they don't have to recruit?

In your earlier post you mentioned something that I would call the "Ah ha!" moment of this discussion. You pointed out that skill position players develop earlier then lineman. I would agree. But what is the type player the two private schools in the 5A depend on most? Athletic, fast skill position players. I would be harder to judge whether a 10 year old will grow to be 6'5 and angry. Not so hard to pick the kid that will be fast and athletic.

Like I have said numerous times, I have no proof that any private school recruits. I also hope people on these boards think it's just a small few of us ranting about this, an overwhelming number of people believe they do as well. These schools are breaking no laws or rules. The fact that schools with small enrollment numbers produce more scholarship players than schools two, three or four times the size. Yes they have great coaches but they aren't that great. PA, a school where 32% of the high school students play football out of approximately 340 enrolled has produced more scholarship players over the past 5 years then North Little Rock high school where 3.5% out of 2600 play football. Now that's a mathematical anomaly.

JacketFan

Quote from: Grond on January 18, 2019, 11:04:59 pm
My son was always a good football player, but he was not dominant until his 9th grade year and his Senior year. But he was also not D1 level.

Any P.E. coach will look at a class, and see children that look athletically gifted. But I find it unlikely that PA is out scouting for 9 year olds.

But there are some other realities for private schools. To exist, a private school MUST recruit on some level. And PA's academic and athletic accomplishments are powerful recruiting tools......for the PARENTS.

The real question is: How many players in the PA football program have PARENTS that played college football? Does PA seek out UA/ASU/UCA football grads?

Keep in mind that a lot of NFL players send their kids to these insanely talented private schools across the nation. Has PA's football success created a situation where they don't have to recruit?
I think this has a lot to do with PA success

Overdahill

Quote from: JacketFan on January 19, 2019, 03:33:15 pm
I think this has a lot to do with PA success

Build it and they will come........ ;)

Fox 16 Arkansas Fox 24 Arkansas