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Should the Arkansas State Championships be for sale?

Started by mijally, December 19, 2016, 06:29:07 pm

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mijally

"...provide services to the schools in a fair and impartial manner..."   

This quote is taken from the AAA mission statement. I've made a lot of comments about how teams bid for tournaments and then turn them in to their own personal Invitational and start rigging advantages in their favor. Why do we sit by and let this garbage happen in our state playoffs?  My school has gotten the job two years in a row. It's worse this year with District tournaments for sale.  Is the Director of AAA not aware of this or does he just not care?  Does anybody else feel the same way or is it just me?  I've got multiple examples of the bias.

Brian G


South Central

I agree of the unfair advantages but I know some districts are actually playing at the higher seed. So no school will host a big tourney. That's going to be tough as a lower seed, going on the road to try to go to state.

ricepig

Quote from: B.G. on December 19, 2016, 07:27:34 pm
Give more details.

I don't think there is any to give. There's nothing from stopping his school from bidding, is there?

Brian G


mijally

I'll start with home field advantage. Everybody agrees it has meaning. If it is going to happen in a playoff it should be earned not bought. The 5A soccer tournament had three hosts and 2 were participants. A 3 seed getting multiple home games over higher seeds. That's bogus. The year before a 4 seed getting home field. Fair?  Don't think so. The schedule for the 5a bb tournament was changed to accommodate the host. Pushed their game up for more rest between games to stack the stands. Pushed back another team which put the with less rest for their 2nd game. Why did they do that?  To get an advantage that's why. And as far as "you can bid too"...you mean "we can screw them back?"  Get even. An eye for an eye?  That may be the way you roll Hammurabi but not me. Wrong is wrong. The tournaments belong on college campuses and run by an independent 3rd party.

ricepig

Quote from: mijally on December 20, 2016, 09:10:07 am
I'll start with home field advantage. Everybody agrees it has meaning. If it is going to happen in a playoff it should be earned not bought. The 5A soccer tournament had three hosts and 2 were participants. A 3 seed getting multiple home games over higher seeds. That's bogus. The year before a 4 seed getting home field. Fair?  Don't think so. The schedule for the 5a bb tournament was changed to accommodate the host. Pushed their game up for more rest between games to stack the stands. Pushed back another team which put the with less rest for their 2nd game. Why did they do that?  To get an advantage that's why. And as far as "you can bid too"...you mean "we can screw them back?"  Get even. An eye for an eye?  That may be the way you roll Hammurabi but not me. Wrong is wrong. The tournaments belong on college campuses and run by an independent 3rd party.

Well, the member schools of the AAA disagree.

blueandwhite

So where does this 3rd party come from? If you pull it from high school gyms, who is going to work the tournaments?

Brian G

Lots of ideas with hollow results.

Find that neutral site for each and get back to me.

mijally

Arkansas colleges and universities make millions off high school student's parents. Like me.  I have a son in college and one in high school. I'm paying UA $16k per year in tuition. So far for two years $32k. All 4 of his roommates played high school athletics. That's $160k in two years between 5 students. Multiply this by all the college sophomores along with a rolling 4 year average for Freshman, Juniors and Seniors. If you do the math the income is a quarter billion yes billion dollars over a 4 year period. Is it too much to say. "Hey Jeff Long. Can you unlock the doors to Bud Walton and Razorback Field and turn on the lights and let us play our tournaments here? Maybe you can host it for us too?  You have thousands of students on campus who need extra cash like Mijally's son who will work for cheap?  You could coordinate it with a week long open house or orientation and all your prospective future customers can see your beautiful campus. Maybe they might want to give you $16k.

ricepig

Quote from: mijally on December 20, 2016, 07:36:12 pm
Arkansas colleges and universities make millions off high school student's parents. Like me.  I have a son in college and one in high school. I'm paying UA $16k per year in tuition. So far for two years $32k. All 4 of his roommates played high school athletics. That's $160k in two years between 5 students. Multiply this by all the college sophomores along with a rolling 4 year average for Freshman, Juniors and Seniors. If you do the math the income is a quarter billion yes billion dollars over a 4 year period. Is it too much to say. "Hey Jeff Long. Can you unlock the doors to Bud Walton and Razorback Field and turn on the lights and let us play our tournaments here? Maybe you can host it for us too?  You have thousands of students on campus who need extra cash like Mijally's son who will work for cheap?  You could coordinate it with a week long open house or orientation and all your prospective future customers can see your beautiful campus. Maybe they might want to give you $16k.

Make millions, if they make millions, why has tuition been going up every year? I think they spend our tuition money every year, they aren't "making" millions, lol.

Brian G

Quote from: mijally on December 20, 2016, 07:36:12 pm
Arkansas colleges and universities make millions off high school student's parents. Like me.  I have a son in college and one in high school. I'm paying UA $16k per year in tuition. So far for two years $32k. All 4 of his roommates played high school athletics. That's $160k in two years between 5 students. Multiply this by all the college sophomores along with a rolling 4 year average for Freshman, Juniors and Seniors. If you do the math the income is a quarter billion yes billion dollars over a 4 year period. Is it too much to say. "Hey Jeff Long. Can you unlock the doors to Bud Walton and Razorback Field and turn on the lights and let us play our tournaments here? Maybe you can host it for us too?  You have thousands of students on campus who need extra cash like Mijally's son who will work for cheap?  You could coordinate it with a week long open house or orientation and all your prospective future customers can see your beautiful campus. Maybe they might want to give you $16k.
Again, find the venue that will do it.

Pie in the sky.

mijally

They "receive" millions in tuition. Bud Walton is the venue.  It has the capacity and it is a meaningful and significant place to play basketball.  Where the National Champions played.  I went to Summit 2 years ago and sat in my seat for 4 hours trading bathroom breaks with my son so I wouldn't lose my seat to watch Malik and Kevaughn battle it out. Last year my arse and my $50 I spent stayed home because everything but the game sucked.

I can remember my 2 state tournament experiences playing 30+ years ago. One at the Pine Bluff Convention Center as a sophomore bench warmer and one at a participant's home court as a senior.  Hands down the large facility made it feel more relevant. Me and my sophomore teammate joking about shooting jumpers where Sidney Moncrief shot 'em. Lol. 

Brian G

now you're talking Finals weekend....that's a different topic.

ricepig

Quote from: mijally on December 20, 2016, 10:31:41 pm
They "receive" millions in tuition. Bud Walton is the venue.  It has the capacity and it is a meaningful and significant place to play basketball.  Where the National Champions played.  I went to Summit 2 years ago and sat in my seat for 4 hours trading bathroom breaks with my son so I wouldn't lose my seat to watch Malik and Kevaughn battle it out. Last year my arse and my $50 I spent stayed home because everything but the game sucked.

I can remember my 2 state tournament experiences playing 30+ years ago. One at the Pine Bluff Convention Center as a sophomore bench warmer and one at a participant's home court as a senior.  Hands down the large facility made it feel more relevant. Me and my sophomore teammate joking about shooting jumpers where Sidney Moncrief shot 'em. Lol.

They "receive" millions for a college education, that has nothing to do with high school basketball. I've put two through, although they both had academic full rides, and have one to go, and I've never considered they owed me a high school championship venue. I wouldn't care what college in the state they had attended.

Rulesman

Quote from: mijally on December 20, 2016, 10:31:41 pm
They "receive" millions in tuition. Bud Walton is the venue.  It has the capacity and it is a meaningful and significant place to play basketball.  Where the National Champions played.  I went to Summit 2 years ago and sat in my seat for 4 hours trading bathroom breaks with my son so I wouldn't lose my seat to watch Malik and Kevaughn battle it out. Last year my arse and my $50 I spent stayed home because everything but the game sucked.

I can remember my 2 state tournament experiences playing 30+ years ago. One at the Pine Bluff Convention Center as a sophomore bench warmer and one at a participant's home court as a senior.  Hands down the large facility made it feel more relevant. Me and my sophomore teammate joking about shooting jumpers where Sidney Moncrief shot 'em. Lol. 
Maybe you should volunteer your services to the AAA since it appears you know how to run a tournament.

mijally

No where in my comments did I say anybody "owed me" anything. It's the least they  could do for their future students was my point. You are dug in with your opinion as am I so we can agree to disagree.  But championship tournaments in Arkansas are not neutral, impartial, or open for bidding to all schools for various reasons so until some objective, non participating, 3rd party steps in and takes control they will continue to be bias. Your school and their home 50 game winning streak make my point crystal clear. A tournament on your home court would not benefit any team but yours.

mijally

Quote from: Rulesman on December 21, 2016, 10:12:14 am
Maybe you should volunteer your services to the AAA since it appears you know how to run a tournament.
I wondered how long it would be before someone said that. And my answer is:  Why would I take a job as a telemarketer for the AAA soliciting advertising space and trying to sell AD's on the value of buying a state tournament and rigging it in your favor. I have a good job right now.

blueandwhite

Mijally are you talking about state finals or the indivdual state tournaments?

I love how people come on here and think it is easy to put on a state tournament (or any tournament), and do it with class.

ricepig

Quote from: blueandwhite on December 21, 2016, 10:42:17 am
Mijally are you talking about state finals or the indivdual state tournaments?

I love how people come on here and think it is easy to put on a state tournament (or any tournament), and do it with class.

He knows the finals are held off the high school's campuses because he griped about his seats, lol. He expects the college's to donate their time and space because he's paid tuition. The AAA bids out the regionals and early rounds of the state tournaments because it wants the money, and the AAA is the member schools, which some conveniently forget. The reason high schools bid is because they have a decent team with a chance to make it through the tournament and help the gate. Again, it's about the money. I'm like B.G., find somebody to underwrite it all and have neutral sites for 7 different state tournaments and however many regionals, and then let's talk.

mijally

Quote from: ricepig on December 21, 2016, 11:24:59 am
He knows the finals are held off the high school's campuses because he griped about his seats, lol. He expects the college's to donate their time and space because he's paid tuition. The AAA bids out the regionals and early rounds of the state tournaments because it wants the money, and the AAA is the member schools, which some conveniently forget. The reason high schools bid is because they have a decent team with a chance to make it through the tournament and help the gate. Again, it's about the money. I'm like B.G., find somebody to underwrite it all and have neutral sites for 7 different state tournaments and however many regionals, and then let's talk.
You take verbal cheap shots at me and play devils advocate all you want.  It doesn't affect me. The fact remains:  the tournaments are not always legit because Members want to hook themselves up. Lol. Thanks for continuing to make that point for me.

blueandwhite

Mijally, would you have a problem if the #1 seed host the tournament?

ricepig

Quote from: mijally on December 21, 2016, 12:53:22 pm
You take verbal cheap shots at me and play devils advocate all you want.  It doesn't affect me. The fact remains:  the tournaments are not always legit because Members want to hook themselves up. Lol. Thanks for continuing to make that point for me.

And other members don't complain, because they know they had every opportunity to bid on the same tournament, as long as their facility met the minimum requirements. To me, if the member schools, administrators, and coaches aren't complaining, what Johnny fan says doesn't carry much merit. When you can come up with a reasonable suggestion, then someone may listen to it,.

ricepig

I know in 6A and 7A that the host school moves from year to year, how does that favor one school over another?

mijally

Quote from: ricepig on December 21, 2016, 01:25:58 pm
And other members don't complain, because they know they had every opportunity to bid on the same tournament, as long as their facility met the minimum requirements. To me, if the member schools, administrators, and coaches aren't complaining, what Johnny fan says doesn't carry much merit. When you can come up with a reasonable suggestion, then someone may listen to it,.
That is a false statement if you don't have the facilities you may be ineligible. HS athletics has never been about administrators and it shouldn't because you pointed out they are only interested when they can win. It's about the kids, their families and Johnny the ticket paying Fan my friend. That's where you and all the Members miss the boat. For example;  if your school board fired your Superintendent, Principal, and AD at 3 pm, your girls team would still tip off at 5 pm as usual.  If the girls team and their parents decided they were not going to play for whatever reason;  Game Cancelled. Who is HS athletics about now?

Brian G

Quote from: mijally on December 21, 2016, 04:33:36 pm
That is a false statement if you don't have the facilities you may be ineligible. HS athletics has never been about administrators and it shouldn't because you pointed out they are only interested when they can win. It's about the kids, their families and Johnny the ticket paying Fan my friend. That's where you and all the Members miss the boat. For example;  if your school board fired your Superintendent, Principal, and AD at 3 pm, your girls team would still tip off at 5 pm as usual.  If the girls team and their parents decided they were not going to play for whatever reason;  Game Cancelled. Who is HS athletics about now?
There are minimum requirements to host.  It scales by classification.

Man you're in to tangents.

mijally

Yes but enjoyable conversation. Thanks for listening and responding. Your comments and input are very much appreciated whether I agree or not.

mijally

Quote from: blueandwhite on December 21, 2016, 01:21:17 pm
Mijally, would you have a problem if the #1 seed host the tournament?
If it's at a neutral site and your not lining up competitive advantages for yourself it sounds good to me. I'd take a pass on playing in your home gym. 

ricepig

Quote from: mijally on December 21, 2016, 05:21:59 pm
If it's at a neutral site and your not lining up competitive advantages for yourself it sounds good to me. I'd take a pass on playing in your home gym.


So, every baseball, basketball, volleyball, softball, football, swim meet, wrestling match, soccer match, etc. that is a state tournament game should be at a neutral venue? Good luck getting that arranged. Should we keep score, if might be unfair to someone??

Brian G

Yep.  For one thing, you'd hear a ton of gripes about travel.  Especially if it was at the UA.

Rulesman

Quote from: B.G. on December 21, 2016, 04:35:21 pm
There are minimum requirements to host.  It scales by classification.

Man you're in to tangents.
He complains about his son having to guard his seat in Hot Springs while he goes to pee because there aren't enough seats, but then doesn't think there should be a minimum seating requirement to host a tournament. What a tool!

OB11

Quote from: B.G. on December 21, 2016, 07:39:45 pm
Yep.  For one thing, you'd hear a ton of gripes about travel.  Especially if it was at the UA.

That was going to be my point.  I was sure travel was going to come up in this conversation at some point.  The most fair location would be central Arkansas (probably Little Rock) so that no one team would have to travel an extreme distance.  I think it makes most sense to play the finals in Little Rock.  But playing devil's advocate I would say that is too much of an advantage for teams that are from Little Rock.  IMO this argument has no "right" answer and the way the tournaments are currently set up is the best way to do it. Each school has the choice to bid on the tournament and if they don't meet the minimum requirements and they really want to host then the parents (tax payers) can voice that concern and choose to fund a new venue that meets the requirements and bid.

Brian G


mijally

December 22, 2016, 09:59:19 am #33 Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 10:27:54 am by mijally
Quote from: Rulesman on December 21, 2016, 08:19:54 pm
He complains about his son having to guard his seat in Hot Springs while he goes to pee because there aren't enough seats, but then doesn't think there should be a minimum seating requirement to host a tournament. What a tool!
You made the minimum requirement comment up Rulesman. I didn't say that. Why you making stuff up?  You're taking this way too personal. It must be hitting home. Rulesman.  You a ref?  Lol. Maybe someone from AAA?  Maybe an administrator?  From a distressed district maybe failing at your own job in educating your students and meddling in sports perhaps?  Scheming with your athletic department to win on the court instead of scheming with your teachers to win in the classroom?  Or one of our ethical AD's. So gifted and smart they don't have enough sense to verify their athletes are eligible to participate?  Or who know they are not eligible to play and cheat anyway because that don't think anyone knows to rat them out?  Hiring tyrant coaches who mentally and verbally abuse athletes cause they have no coaching skills? 

blueandwhite

Ok, mijalley if you are going to have tournaments who is going to pay for or do the following things:

1. Pay for rental of the facility (somebody has to pay for the electricity and water being used. On campus sites just write it off because the gyms would still being used even if the tournament was being played there)
2. Operate the scoring table and clocks (these are usually done by volunteers at on campus site)
3. Run the concession stands and operate the ticket table.
4. Make sure that the teams and officials are taken care of, like scheduling locker rooms and making sure they are stocked.
5. Medical coverage

When you have tournaments on campus sites, the host school takes care all of this.

mijally

1. UA, ASU, UCA, SAU, AR-FS, UAM
2. Students at these universities
3. Students at these universities
4. University staff officials
5. Obamacare. Lol

ricepig

Quote from: mijally on December 22, 2016, 03:14:53 pm
1. UA, ASU, UCA, SAU, AR-FS, UAM
2. Students at these universities
3. Students at these universities
4. University staff officials
5. Obamacare. Lol

So, you don't really have an alternative, that was pretty much assured. I'm not sure you realize this, but the UofA has home games thru March 4, which is one week after conference tournaments, and the week of the state tournament. So, you need to come up with some other venues.

Brian G

This could have been a good discussion but it seems to be a liberal rant on making everyone equal and athletic event hosting forced on those that don't want them.

We'll call it title XIII. 

mijally

Quote from: B.G. on December 22, 2016, 04:00:41 pm
This could have been a good discussion but it seems to be a liberal rant on making everyone equal and athletic event hosting forced on those that don't want them.

We'll call it title XIII.
"Tool?  Liberal?"  This could have been a good discussion. Thanks BG.

sevenof400

Quote from: B.G. on December 21, 2016, 07:39:45 pm
Yep.  For one thing, you'd hear a ton of gripes about travel.  Especially if it was at the UA.

...and what's that sound we're hearing now? 

Brian G

Quote from: mijally on December 22, 2016, 04:26:44 pm
"Tool?  Liberal?"  This could have been a good discussion. Thanks BG.
You drove that bus.

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