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Shot Clock

Started by JimRat, February 21, 2016, 03:49:43 pm

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JimRat

So I was at the Siloam Springs v Conway game Friday night....Conway jumps out to the lead in the 2nd quarter and goes into a stall game! They proceed to hold the ball and play keep away for the next 2.5 quarters! Conway beats Siloam which I guess is the ultimate goal...but c'mon man!!! 2.5 quarters of playing keep away is NOT basketball! 7A Conway playing scared against 6A Siloam (Siloam beat them in Conway)...really!!!!! What a waste for these young men that they end up playing that type of game instead of just playing the game!!! High School needs a shot clock because of this type of crap! Put a 45 second shot clock into play and due away with these type of games!!!

ricepig

So, was Siloam not able to pressure them? You know, Siloam could have played better and had the lead, correct? Now, as far as shot clock, it works for me.

beach bum

February 21, 2016, 04:50:13 pm #2 Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 04:51:47 pm by beach bum
I agree. Even something very modest like 45 seconds even to stop ultimate stall ball as you describe. Don't go anything under 35 seconds though IMO as that would change the game too much. Its not that hard to do even though they act like it would be to have one. There is good coaching that teaches do not shoot until a very good shot is available then there is being a coward and stalling. Play basketball.

BigLion10


nuttinbuthogs

You don't need a shot clock.  It would eliminate some of the strategy in the game.  Just because some don't like the slow down game you must remember as a coach you are trying to win and you use whatever strategy fits into your players ability when campared to the opponent.  I don't want to go up tempo against a team I know I cannot run the floor with, and I cannot afford to get very far behind. So I hold the ball, in the case you mentioned I hold my lead.  In your infinite wisdom you want to stop this because you personally don't like the style.  You wold probably also criticize the win or loss record of a coach with little talent playing this style to try to acheive victory.

sevenof400

Absolutely NO way should there be a shot clock in high school. 

If a team can keep possession of the ball for 4 quarters, take the last shot of the game, and win 2-0 then good for them.  It is up to BOTH teams to adjust their game accordingly.  It's the beauty of the game when each team can attempt to dictate the pace of the game - which team can force its will on the other.

The shot clock comes along in college - and that's just fine. 

beach bum

February 21, 2016, 06:44:25 pm #6 Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 06:48:00 pm by beach bum
Quote from: sevenof400 on February 21, 2016, 06:01:07 pm
Absolutely NO way should there be a shot clock in high school. 

If a team can keep possession of the ball for 4 quarters, take the last shot of the game, and win 2-0 then good for them.  It is up to BOTH teams to adjust their game accordingly.  It's the beauty of the game when each team can attempt to dictate the pace of the game - which team can force its will on the other.

The shot clock comes along in college - and that's just fine.

That is when it is no longer a game and becomes a spectacle for no one to watch. The coach has the right to do that but the fans in return have the right to no longer watch when they get sick of it. This is basketball. If I wanted to watch the majority of players standing around for hours without most of them not actually contributing to what is going on I'd turn baseball on.

ricepig

Quote from: beach bum on February 21, 2016, 06:44:25 pm
That is when it is no longer a game and becomes a spectacle for no one to watch. The coach has the right to do that but the fans in return have the right to no longer watch when they get sick of it. This is basketball. If I wanted to watch the majority of players standing around for hours without most of them not actually contributing to what is going on I'd turn baseball on.

They aren't just standing around, unless their coach isn't trying to trap, or speed them up, or entice some shots. Generally, the team trying to stall is inferior in talent and thus should be susceptible to pressure.

nuttinbuthogs

The objective is to find a way to win!   If we change all the rules of all the sports because someone doesn't like the style of play, no game will be the same and coaching strategy will be gone.  If you don't like it, don't go watch it. 

Brian G

Always enjoy this conversation.

Very simply it's very unlikely to happen due to cost.  First of all each school would need to invest in clocks for each gym they are control.  On the face, that seems doable for most districts.

But it's the clock operator cost that comes into play.  You will need a completely separate person to do the shot clock for each and every game.  That's the part that kills the movement.

Personally, I go back and forth on a clock.

sportsguy80

I'm gonna throw my two cents in this one. I would like to see a shot clock but I didn't just come to this thought. Back in my days I personally didn't like the stall game plan but I understood it. Now as we fast forward to our present day the game of basketball has changed. I have heard many different fans, parents, coaches, and players say they would like to have one. My argument with that is the powers to be(AAA) are not so quick to address it just yet. I do know that within the last couple of years coaches and ADs have brought it up at conferences.

JimRat

Quote from: ricepig on February 21, 2016, 04:25:41 pm
So, was Siloam not able to pressure them? You know, Siloam could have played better and had the lead, correct? Now, as far as shot clock, it works for me.

understood...Siloam was not near as athletic as Conway...better basketball players but certainly not the athletes!!!

JimRat

Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on February 21, 2016, 05:13:38 pm
You don't need a shot clock.  It would eliminate some of the strategy in the game.  Just because some don't like the slow down game you must remember as a coach you are trying to win and you use whatever strategy fits into your players ability when campared to the opponent.  I don't want to go up tempo against a team I know I cannot run the floor with, and I cannot afford to get very far behind. So I hold the ball, in the case you mentioned I hold my lead.  In your infinite wisdom you want to stop this because you personally don't like the style.  You wold probably also criticize the win or loss record of a coach with little talent playing this style to try to acheive victory.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth...strategy is fine but this is HIGH SCHOOL basketball.....let's have practice and instead of getting better at the game let's work on our stall game....a 45 sceond shot clock would certainly still allow a coach to slow the game down but would do away with the crap we saw on Friday night.....that has no place in the High School game at all!!!!

JimRat

Quote from: sevenof400 on February 21, 2016, 06:01:07 pm
Absolutely NO way should there be a shot clock in high school. 

If a team can keep possession of the ball for 4 quarters, take the last shot of the game, and win 2-0 then good for them.  It is up to BOTH teams to adjust their game accordingly.  It's the beauty of the game when each team can attempt to dictate the pace of the game - which team can force its will on the other.

The shot clock comes along in college - and that's just fine.

REALLY? and you call that the beauty of the game..... ::)

bluegrassboy75

Quote from: sportsguy80 on February 21, 2016, 09:18:03 pm
I'm gonna throw my two cents in this one. I would like to see a shot clock but I didn't just come to this thought. Back in my days I personally didn't like the stall game plan but I understood it. Now as we fast forward to our present day the game of basketball has changed. I have heard many different fans, parents, coaches, and players say they would like to have one. My argument with that is the powers to be(AAA) are not so quick to address it just yet. I do know that within the last couple of years coaches and ADs have brought it up at conferences.

NFHS (who makes the rules, not the AAA) doesn't have an allowance for a shot clock on a state level.  If a state decides to adopt one, the forfeit an opportunity to have a representative on any future Basketball Rules Committee.

sportsguy80

Quote from: bluegrassboy75 on February 22, 2016, 10:09:10 am
NFHS (who makes the rules, not the AAA) doesn't have an allowance for a shot clock on a state level.  If a state decides to adopt one, the forfeit an opportunity to have a representative on any future Basketball Rules Committee.
So are you saying that AAA doesn't have any say in this and that this topic hasn't been brought up for whatever reasons? I think maybe since there aren't many states with a high school shot clock plays a factor as well.

sevenof400

Quote from: JimRat on February 22, 2016, 09:24:23 am
REALLY? and you call that the beauty of the game..... ::)

Most assuredly I do.  I love to see a team frustrated by a style of play they can't handle.  And yes, I loved watching Princeton.

JimRat

Quote from: sevenof400 on February 22, 2016, 12:20:26 pm
Most assuredly I do.  I love to see a team frustrated by a style of play they can't handle.  And yes, I loved watching Princeton.

I had NO problem with how Princeton played....but at least they had a purpose in mind! Back door plays, ball movement, player movement are all components of a well coached bball team.... Conway was simply about playing keep away! It was sad to see and if I was a parent of a Conway player, I would have spoken to the coach about it! Nothing fun about it for either team...and that is what the coach is missing out on!!! I understand wanting to win....but again, we are talking High School here!

bluegrassboy75

Quote from: sportsguy80 on February 22, 2016, 11:30:54 am
So are you saying that AAA doesn't have any say in this and that this topic hasn't been brought up for whatever reasons? I think maybe since there aren't many states with a high school shot clock plays a factor as well.

I don't know what was discussed in the proposals, but I did find on the NFHS website that about that if they use a shot clock then they wouldn't have a rep on the committee in the future.  Arkansas goes by NFHS rules.  Also, you have to put it into perspective about the cost.  If Arkansas adopts it, then all schools will have to go purchase clocks and train and pay shot clock keepers.

We see in the collegiate level that sometimes errors happen and they have to go to the monitor to see how much time to put on the shot clock and high school doesn't have a monitor for officials to go to then it would be a guessing game or officials would be looking at the clock on every shot and could miss potential fouls.

ricepig

Quote from: JimRat on February 22, 2016, 02:05:40 pm
I had NO problem with how Princeton played....but at least they had a purpose in mind! Back door plays, ball movement, player movement are all components of a well coached bball team.... Conway was simply about playing keep away! It was sad to see and if I was a parent of a Conway player, I would have spoken to the coach about it! Nothing fun about it for either team...and that is what the coach is missing out on!!! I understand wanting to win....but again, we are talking High School here!

Ah......was big brother playing keep away from little brother? Foul them, put them on the free throw line if you can't steal the ball. You know, since they weren't better basketball players, they probably couldn't make a free throw.

ricepig

I looked up the score of the two games, SS scored 49 in their win, while Conway scored 48 in their win.

Brian G

There are tournaments that have shot clocks.

The old Holiday Hoops at BWS in Fayetteville had a 35 sec clock.  I know the Max Preps event that Bentonville played in over the C-Mas break in CA had one as well.

But the point is semi-valid in that the high school coaches or refs federation have certain standards that are generally applied to when it comes to rules.

beach bum

I am glad to see that some people at least agree with me. I did not know that a whopping 45 seconds was such a crazy idea...... You could play a quarter with only 10 shots with 45 seconds as a shot clock and make about 20 to 25 passes easily in 45 seconds.

itsslim

Currently, Massachusetts, Maryland, Rhode Island, Washington, New York, California, North Dakota and South Dakota utilize the shot clock for either boys or girls or both. Bring the shot clock to Arkansas!!! some of the best basketball players are from California and New York, the mecca of basketball

OB11

A lot people are mentioning cost as a deterrent to the shot clock.  But didn't all football playing schools have to purchase play clocks to be installed on the field?  I remember before a certain point not every school had them.  Now they must have them.  How was that handled as far as costs to schools?  And could a similar situation work for shot clocks?   

itsslim

yes if it was mandatory

bluegrassboy75

I'm not saying that it won't happen, but I wouldn't put money on Arkansas getting a shot clock until one of two things happen.

1.  New rule from NFHS that all states have a shot clock
2.  NFHS makes it a "state option" to have a shot clock and still get to have a representative on the Basketball Rules Committee. 

That is just my opinion on if/when Arkansas will get one.

ricepig

Quote from: OliverBoy11 on February 23, 2016, 09:43:55 am
A lot people are mentioning cost as a deterrent to the shot clock.  But didn't all football playing schools have to purchase play clocks to be installed on the field?  I remember before a certain point not every school had them.  Now they must have them.  How was that handled as far as costs to schools?  And could a similar situation work for shot clocks?

Do schools have to have a different operator for the play clock? I think as BG mentioned, it would take an additional operator in basketball due to the fast pace.

OB11

Quote from: ricepig on February 23, 2016, 10:30:02 am
Do schools have to have a different operator for the play clock? I think as BG mentioned, it would take an additional operator in basketball due to the fast pace.

I do believe there is an additional operator for the play clock for most of the places I've seen.  But I'm not sure how different schools handle that.  For football it wouldn't be impossible for the scoreboard operator to do both.  Basketball would be a different story because of the pace. 

itsslim

I know for college basketball and football its two different operators.

sevenof400

Quote from: ricepig on February 23, 2016, 10:30:02 am
Do schools have to have a different operator for the play clock? I think as BG mentioned, it would take an additional operator in basketball due to the fast pace.

I can tell you emphatically that it would require an extra person in basketball.  At present, the clock operator and person keeping the book are busy enough as is.  Some schools already use a 3rd person at the table for a big board (detailing players in the game, their points and fouls) but if that person also doubles as the PA announcer, that person cannot run the shot clock. 

Based on my experience, it would require another person at the table.

OB11

Quote from: sevenof400 on February 23, 2016, 11:52:06 am
I can tell you emphatically that it would require an extra person in basketball.  At present, the clock operator and person keeping the book are busy enough as is.  Some schools already use a 3rd person at the table for a big board (detailing players in the game, their points and fouls) but if that person also doubles as the PA announcer, that person cannot run the shot clock. 

Based on my experience, it would require another person at the table.

So, after the initial cost for actual clock system, over the course of a season what would the cost be to a school to have another person at the table?  I know pay differs from school to school but just an average range.

Also, would the shot clock be implemented at the jr. high level?  Only reason I ask is because with the bigger districts in the state, there may be multiple jr. highs with their own gym.  Thus upping the cost for a clock system in the district.  And if so, would it be the same amount of time?  Shorter?  Longer?

zebradynasty

I would not be for adding a shot clock so that the fans would enjoy the game more. Now if it will improve the quality of basketball...maybe but I don't see a shot clock doing that. If a team wants to stall the ball then their opponent needs to figure out a way to stop them from doing it AND if a team wants to run and gun then their opponent needs to figure out a way to stop them! That's just plain competitive basketball to me don't like watching a certain style....baseball season is about to start!   :-\

nuttinbuthogs

Quote from: JimRat on February 22, 2016, 02:05:40 pm
I had NO problem with how Princeton played....but at least they had a purpose in mind! Back door plays, ball movement, player movement are all components of a well coached bball team.... Conway was simply about playing keep away! It was sad to see and if I was a parent of a Conway player, I would have spoken to the coach about it! Nothing fun about it for either team...and that is what the coach is missing out on!!! I understand wanting to win....but again, we are talking High School here!
Strategy is a huge part of the game, knowing what your kids can or cannot do against an opponent is a big deal.  A shot clock forces a team to shoot regardless of  its game plan and regardless of a good shot opportunity, you must shoot.  It doesn't force the opponent to have to contend with your style of play.  Just sit back and wait until the lesser team has to shoot even though they don't have a good chance of outscoring you.   Part of the problem in athletics is the idea that you have to please fans with the style you play.  What fans like is winning.  You win they will be ok.

nuttinbuthogs

By the way, it's none of your business the style of play the coach chooses.  If you don't like it take your kid somewhere else.  They can run a fast break offense and loose as well but at least you will be happy with the style of play. And the comment about training the kids and working to get better.  You think it doesn't take some skills to hold a ball all night long?

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