Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

[Bruin Backer]

I didn't know Hall High existed 85 years ago, 45 maybe

I think I must have been channeling my inner Lincoln. Two score and five years is the correct number!

[Overdahill]

I didn't know Hall High existed 85 years ago, 45 maybe

In the beginning, there was...................... Maynard with a quip 

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

Two more of my favorites, that are generally applicable on FF.

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.

In the "did you know" category, did you know that smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics.

You're on a roll today!

[JessieP]

Two more of my favorites, that are generally applicable on FF.

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.

In the "did you know" category, did you know that smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics.

Bruin Backer has their A game going today. I will, without doubt, be stealing that one. That makes my all time favorite quotes list. It's right up there with David Letterman saying "there's a new study out today that said if your parents never had sex, you won't either".

[Overdahill]

Bruin Backer and Maynard may have to take over PR for the rest of us 

[Bruin Backer]

Bruin Backer and Maynard may have to take over PR for the rest of us 

Are you kidding? Why would I want to take over Puerto Rico? Seriously, if Maynard will let me ride with him in his limo and look at the smoke in the afternoons at PA, I all for it. However, it may cramp Maynard's style if someone that looks like his dad is in the limo with him. Like Bulldogger, we PA folks are very sensitive about the image we project. He wore a tuxedo to his vasectomy because he said, "If you're going to be impotent, you need to look impotent".

[Maynard G Krebs]

Are you kidding? Why would I want to take over Puerto Rico? Seriously, if Maynard will let me ride with him in his limo and look at the smoke in the afternoons at PA, I all for it. However, it may cramp Maynard's style if someone that looks like his dad is in the limo with him. Like Bulldogger, we PA folks are very sensitive about the image we project. He wore a tuxedo to his vasectomy because he said, "If you're going to be impotent, you need to look impotent".

He also stayed up late last night studying for his urine test

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

Oh geez you guys................smh

[Overdahill]

He also stayed up late last night studying for his urine test

Ouch, rough crowd 

[Bruin Backer]

He also stayed up late last night studying for his urine test

The worst part was that it was an oral exam.

Cue up drum rim shot...Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your referees.

[JessieP]

The worst part was that it was an oral exam.

Cue up drum rim shot...Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your referees.

Where's the tip jar? pretty funny conversations today.

[Bruin Backer]

Where's the tip jar? pretty funny conversations today.

We'll set one up at the PA/McClellan game tomorrow tonight. I can't guarantee the money won't go into the PA recruiting fund.

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

The worst part was that it was an oral exam.

Cue up drum rim shot...Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your referees.

You definitely stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

[Bruin Backer]

You definitely stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

I stay there every night. My wife made me go there when she found out it was cheaper than the nursing home she was planning on putting me in.

[JessieP]

I stay there every night. My wife made me go there when she found out it was cheaper than the nursing home she was planning on putting me in.

I've never seen this side of you. You've got quite the sarcastic sense of humor, no one applauds that more then I. You go girl/guy/trans/X/nogenderimplied/nonspecific/neutral human being, I love it.

[Bruin Backer]

I've never seen this side of you. You've got quite the sarcastic sense of humor, no one applauds that more then I. You go girl/guy/trans/X/nogenderimplied/nonspecific/neutral human being, I love it.

I prefer to think of it as a wry sense of humor. Only a Pioneer would confuse the two. Oops...make that a wry and sarcastic sense of humor. For those that are crazy enough to read 25 pages on a single topic, I think they deserve a page or two of comic relief. If it's as cold sitting through tomorrow night's game as they predict, I probably won't have much of a sense of humor next week. I hope that everyone that attends the game of their favorite team remembers that it's not whether you win or lose that counts, it whether your car will start after the game.

[incogneto]

I've never heard that one before, pretty good. I always use the Mark Twain quote "There's liars, dang liars and statistics". Did you know 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population?

Haha and 83% of all statistics are made up during the argument. 

[JessieP]

Haha and 83% of all statistics are made up during the argument.

Your full of crap, it's 71%, 74% tops.

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

I prefer to think of it as a wry sense of humor. Only a Pioneer would confuse the two. Oops...make that a wry and sarcastic sense of humor. For those that are crazy enough to read 25 pages on a single topic, I think they deserve a page or two of comic relief. If it's as cold sitting through tomorrow night's game as they predict, I probably won't have much of a sense of humor next week. I hope that everyone that attends the game of their favorite team remembers that it's not whether you win or lose that counts, it whether your car will start after the game.

+1   "It's not whether you win or lose, It's whether or not your car starts after the game!"   Awesome!

[gameoflife]

Simple solution is the hardest one to make.  Put all privates in their own classification.

[PA Bruin Fan]

Simple solution is the hardest one to make.  Put all privates in their own classification.

I agree, but there aren't enough competitive private schools in the state to accomplish that.

[MDXPHD]

I agree, but there aren't enough competitive private schools in the state to accomplish that.

It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.

So they aren't losing athletes to them now?

[MDXPHD]

So they aren't losing athletes to them now?

Clearly, that's not what I said. I pretty much said what is happening now would be amplified. It would not be a good situation. Plus, what would be stopping some public schools who want to recruit from joining that league as well? AAA is voluntary. They can't really make private schools play in another league they set up, but they can just prevent private schools from participating in their own league. Either way, this isn't the answer to the problem.

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

Clearly, that's not what I said. I pretty much said what is happening now would be amplified. It would not be a good situation. Plus, what would be stopping some public schools who want to recruit from joining that league as well? AAA is voluntary. They can't really make private schools play in another league they set up, but they can just prevent private schools from participating in their own league. Either way, this isn't the answer to the problem.

Why would the private schools starting their own conference cause so many more parents to want to send their kids there?  Doesn't make sense. 

[JessieP]

It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.

I disagree. How many would they lose? even if the lost a lot it would be spread out over many schools. The parity would remain intact. Say you have six teams that are fairly even, each team loses their best player, aren't they still evenly matched? And the whole "Better shot at getting noticed by a college" is laughable. Recruiters find talent, they don't say "let's check out PA and LRCA". If there is a D1 level football player on Cave City, they'll find him. Now day's a lot of recruiting is self promotion, kids are making HUDL video's and sending them out, using social media to get noticed. I did some research and found out some shocking information, high school football players got scholarships before the internet and before high school teams played on tv. Now sit down, this is gonna floor many people, I have found actual proof that some high school players got scholarships even before PA existed, hard to imagine.

The only real answer to leveling the playing field is separate leagues. If you have no boundaries and offer aid you are in league A, if you are a public school who's only requirement is living in the district, league B.

[JessieP]

Why would the private schools starting their own conference cause so many more parents to want to send their kids there?  Doesn't make sense.

It wouldn't, you are 100% correct.

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

Why would the best players from public schools leave if they haven't already?    Not many GW kids (who are relevant) are going to Union Academy.   If you put Union in with the other private schools in the state, what makes a kid from Greenwood wanta all of a sudden start going to Union?

[Intelligentsia]

Every school in the state of Arkansas recruits. It's that simple.  Every child in Arkansas can attend the school of their parent's choosing (with the wherewithal to have them transported and unless it violates a desegregation order of which I'm not aware).  That's a fact.  Excluding children, whose parents pay taxes to support public schools, from participating in AAA activities is simply unfair; my opinion as a long time public school administrator.  A well conceived success model applied only to private schools, by sport, is the best solution, IMO. (I would have said IMHO, but I struggle to remain humble for a very long at a stretch, but I'm working on that character flaw.)😎

[MDXPHD]

It wouldn't, you are 100% correct.

No, he isn't. They could set up a rule that allows the athlete to play no matter when or where the transfer is from. If a kid is unhappy mid season at a public school, he could transfer to the private school and start participating, if they allowed it. They could set up rules that didn't require any bona fide move from anywhere in order to play the same season and not have the kid sit out a year. If the private school league decided that they could legitimately go out and solicit players and give them money to play there, they could do it.

They could set up all kinds of rules that would hurt the public schools. If you really think it wouldn't change, that's you being too naive. If you separated the two, it would not be good for Arkansas high school football. You would see the quality of public schools decline.

Additionally, you're also living in denial if you don't think kids at specific high schools have a better chance to get noticed than others.

[PA Bruin Fan]

No, he isn't. They could set up a rule that allows the athlete to play no matter when or where the transfer is from. If a kid is unhappy mid season at a public school, he could transfer to the private school and start participating, if they allowed it. They could set up rules that didn't require any bona fide move from anywhere in order to play the same season and not have the kid sit out a year. If the private school league decided that they could legitimately go out and solicit players and give them money to play there, they could do it.

They could set up all kinds of rules that would hurt the public schools. If you really think it wouldn't change, that's you being too naive. If you separated the two, it would not be good for Arkansas high school football. You would see the quality of public schools decline.

Additionally, you're also living in denial if you don't think kids at specific high schools have a better chance to get noticed than others.

I generally agree with what you are saying.  However, there seems to be this theory that private schools have a lot of money to throw around, which I think is false.  For a school to pay a top prospect to play for them there has to be an economic reason.  Yes, PA can provide a few scholarships, which are normally 50% or less of tuition, but that's a far cry from paying the entire load.  For actual sports focused schools, like IMG, they charge tens of thousands per semester.  There isn't much middle ground.  And I still say creating a private league in Arkansas wouldn't work because we don't have enough teams.  Too small a state. 

[MDXPHD]

I generally agree with what you are saying.  However, there seems to be this theory that private schools have a lot of money to throw around, which I think is false.  For a school to pay a top prospect to play for them there has to be an economic reason.  Yes, PA can provide a few scholarships, which are normally 50% or less of tuition, but that's a far cry from paying the entire load.  For actual sports focused schools, like IMG, they charge tens of thousands per semester.  There isn't much middle ground.  And I still say creating a private league in Arkansas wouldn't work because we don't have enough teams.  Too small a state.

PA has a lot of money to throw around! Don't deny that! Lol

[PA Bruin Fan]

PA has a lot of money to throw around! Don't deny that! Lol

Some of their buildings leak so bad when it rains they might as well hold class outside.  The football program is well funded by a handful of very generous families but the school is not overfunded.  I'm just making the point the point that the business model of recruiting and paying players wouldn't work at PA.  Despite all the rumors...

[MDXPHD]

Some of their buildings leak so bad when it rains they might as well hold class outside.  The football program is well funded by a handful of very generous families but the school is not overfunded.  I'm just making the point the point that the business model of recruiting and paying players wouldn't work at PA.  Despite all the rumors...

Well maybe the buildings are in poor shape, but the boosters would love to go solicit kids and throw money! They want football, not that other aspect of school. Don't act like y'all don't have plenty of wealthy boosters lol

[PrivateLesson]

That's surprising to learn PA is in need of classroom building repairs.   You mean they let other areas of their program suffer but football???   How old are the buildings??   Are there any new ones planned in the future?   

[Red Devil Alum]

That's surprising to learn PA is in need of classroom building repairs.   You mean they let other areas of their program suffer but football???   How old are the buildings??   Are there any new ones planned in the future?

The school basically has 3 parts. 2 of them are very nice, but the third (which is the middle school) is the original structure from 1971. It has leak problems and isn't as nice as the rest of the school for sure.

[JessieP]

No, he isn't. They could set up a rule that allows the athlete to play no matter when or where the transfer is from. If a kid is unhappy mid season at a public school, he could transfer to the private school and start participating, if they allowed it. They could set up rules that didn't require any bona fide move from anywhere in order to play the same season and not have the kid sit out a year. If the private school league decided that they could legitimately go out and solicit players and give them money to play there, they could do it.

They could set up all kinds of rules that would hurt the public schools. If you really think it wouldn't change, that's you being too naive. If you separated the two, it would not be good for Arkansas high school football. You would see the quality of public schools decline.

Additionally, you're also living in denial if you don't think kids at specific high schools have a better chance to get noticed than others.

Well, I am a big enough man to admit, when shown facts, when I was wrong. After reading your post and retorts to mine you have made one thing clear, PA has zero advantages over any public school. If what you say is accurate then there is no debate at all. To me the removal of boundaries is a major issue, you are adamant it is not. Now the States of California, Florida, Ohio and many districts of Texas agree with my point, what do those dummies know about high school football!

Whenever someone list a perceived advantage you tell them it's incorrect. The number of D1 players they produce can only be attributed to superior coaching, there is no other explanation. You see, your gonna have a hard time convincing anyone they recruit kindergartners. Now I have always been against performance based classifications, it's participation trophy mentality. Why punish anyone for success? That's just a hop, skip and a jump from removing the scoreboards.   

[PrivateLesson]

The school basically has 3 parts. 2 of them are very nice, but the third (which is the middle school) is the original structure from 1971. It has leak problems and isn't as nice as the rest of the school for sure.

Ahhh....I understand.  Maybe a New Middle School can be built soon.   

[Red Devil Alum]

Well, I am a big enough man to admit, when shown facts, when I was wrong. After reading your post and retorts to mine you have made one thing clear, PA has zero advantages over any public school. If what you say is accurate then there is no debate at all. To me the removal of boundaries is a major issue, you are adamant it is not. Now the States of California, Florida, Ohio and many districts of Texas agree with my point, what do those dummies know about high school football!

Whenever someone list a perceived advantage you tell them it's incorrect. The number of D1 players they produce can only be attributed to superior coaching, there is no other explanation. You see, your gonna have a hard time convincing anyone they recruit kindergartners. Now I have always been against performance based classifications, it's participation trophy mentality. Why punish anyone for success? That's just a hop, skip and a jump from removing the scoreboards.

No Med Jessie is up this morning.

[MDXPHD]

Well, I am a big enough man to admit, when shown facts, when I was wrong. After reading your post and retorts to mine you have made one thing clear, PA has zero advantages over any public school. If what you say is accurate then there is no debate at all. To me the removal of boundaries is a major issue, you are adamant it is not. Now the States of California, Florida, Ohio and many districts of Texas agree with my point, what do those dummies know about high school football!

Whenever someone list a perceived advantage you tell them it's incorrect. The number of D1 players they produce can only be attributed to superior coaching, there is no other explanation. You see, your gonna have a hard time convincing anyone they recruit kindergartners. Now I have always been against performance based classifications, it's participation trophy mentality. Why punish anyone for success? That's just a hop, skip and a jump from removing the scoreboards.

Privates have boundaries. They're just larger than a lot of the publics.  I think we should all read the handbook before we start talking about how boundaries play out though.

Here, let's do it your way. Tell privates they can't play for state titles in AAA. Let's see how far that goes. But, your last paragraph doesn't make sense. You absolutely want to punish PA and other privates by putting them in their own league. And it's the success that makes you think that. If they weren't winning, then the boundary discussion wouldn't be an issue.

Let's clear this up. I'm the most vocal on this board about change and about how many advantages private schools have. But I also want to move toward a solution, not something that would make things worse.

[JessieP]

Privates have boundaries. They're just larger than a lot of the publics.  I think we should all read the handbook before we start talking about how boundaries play out though.

Here, let's do it your way. Tell privates they can't play for state titles in AAA. Let's see how far that goes. But, your last paragraph doesn't make sense. You absolutely want to punish PA and other privates by putting them in their own league. And it's the success that makes you think that. If they weren't winning, then the boundary discussion wouldn't be an issue.

Let's clear this up. I'm the most vocal on this board about change and about how many advantages private schools have. But I also want to move toward a solution, not something that would make things worse.

How is separating leagues punishing success? The bad private schools go in the same league as the good ones. All is does is level the playing field, which according to your post is already level. I'm being serious, I cannot think of a single advantage that PA has that any other school couldn't have. The financial aid issue is easily explained, I could have explained it a while ago but didn't simply because I felt it was a plank in the bigger issue. If the boundaries are a non starter then the aid issue equally as moot. Again, not being sarcastic, if it's beyond your belief that open boundaries isn't a plus then the glove does not fit.

[MDXPHD]

So you don't think being selective is an advantage? Have 0 ESL kids? 0 free and reduced lunches? 0 remedial students? You don't believe the kids who attend have other socioeconomic advantages? And the aid isn't easily explained. There is a huge discrepancy between the ratios in PA football and other sports at PA and also the school overall. Also PA ratio in football compared to other schools who aren't very successful. So as far as easily explained, sure, in one respect about how it's rewarded.  But that doesn't easily explain the discrepancy. This is all mentioned theoughout this entire thread. It's good reading.

I never said the playing field is level. Success advancement is by far the best option. For many reasons.  And it's punishing the private schools and all of the kids who attend those by preventing them from competing for a state championship, which may also prevent those kids from being recognized by colleges.

[MDXPHD]

Also, I'm not sure they have open boundaries. Tell me what you mean by "open."

[JessieP]

Also, I'm not sure they have open boundaries. Tell me what you mean by "open."

If you live anywhere in the state you can attend a private school without any reason, no sitting out. You could live in Blytheville and use the Blytheville address and need no reason for attending. If your father fly a crop duster and was will to fly you to and from school/practice that's legal. No waiting period whatsoever, just show up and play.

The other issue's you list would have no bearing whatsoever on football. Batesville has students who are remedial, Spanish speaking and on full government aid. They don't usually play football, there status has no bearing positive or negative on the football team. I have a very close college friend who grew up in Los Angeles, we talk often about these issue's. He gave me two examples, The richest public high school in the United States is Beverly Hills High School. The average income of the students families is tops in the Nation, by a large margin. Their football ream has state of the art facilities, numerous uniform combinations, they get new ones every year. The players get to keep all their jerseys, tee shirts, hoodies, shoes and all other swag every year. Not just the seniors. They are putrid, horrible, they suck. Long Beach Poly is a very working class school, gang issues, poverty, outdated buildings and a few players sleeping on couches due to homelessness. They are a National Powerhouse, numerous NFL players and even had a reality show about them. They had 21 D-1 players one year. The economic positions of the families have a bearing, but not a major one. With BHHS and LBP they have one disadvantage, boundaries. If you want to play there you must live in the district, people get around that but they must have an address in the district, it's a sort of don't ask don't tell, arrangement. If you are caught using a false address, you get kicked out. Even with a "wink wink" transfer you must be a student for a solid semester before you play, closed boundaries. 

[MDXPHD]

I respectfully disagree on both issues. Especially with the part that those issues I stated have no bearing on football. That's a very narrow minded stance.

Private schools have the same transfer and attendance rules as public these days I'm pretty sure. Their boundary just isn't a district line, it's a 25 mile radius. However, school choice permits athletes in Arkansas to go to whatever school they want I'm pretty sure, they just have to sit out a year. Doesn't matter if it's public or private.

[PA Dad]

I love this discussion!  I never thought I'd see two Batesville posters disagreeing about the advantages of private schools.  Please continue the discussion.  I'm fascinated.

[JessieP]

I love this discussion!  I never thought I'd see two Batesville posters disagreeing about the advantages of private schools.  Please continue the discussion.  I'm fascinated.

I'm getting a standing 8 count. If wealthy students is it I just don't see the correlation to football success. I feel so deflated, what have I been doing with my life? It appears there is no Santa Claus.

[MDXPHD]

I'm getting a standing 8 count. If wealthy students is it I just don't see the correlation to football success. I feel so deflated, what have I been doing with my life? It appears there is no Santa Claus.

What's your opinion on the boundaries now that I explained the rule above?

[Intelligentsia]

I'm getting a standing 8 count. If wealthy students is it I just don't see the correlation to football success. I feel so deflated, what have I been doing with my life? It appears there is no Santa Claus.

The many trappings of wealth is certainly a factor, Jessie.  As a long time "school man", I can attest to the advantages that wealth (or at least living comfortably) had on all areas of a student's achievement.  It's a factor.  Now provide that advantage to every student in the school and you have created an atmosphere of success, achievement, and expectation that is rarely (but occasionally) achieved in the average public school. At that point you have an advantage upon which the school MAY capitalize, according to their priorities.

[PA Bruin Fan]

The many trappings of wealth is certainly a factor, Jessie.  As a long time "school man", I can attest to the advantages that wealth (or at least living comfortably) had on all areas of a student's achievement.  It's a factor.  Now provide that advantage to every student in the school and you have created an atmosphere of success, achievement, and expectation that is rarely (but occasionally) achieved in the average public school. At that point you have an advantage upon which the school MAY capitalize, according to their priorities.

Very well done, thank you