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Would Kevin Kelly win at any Classifaction besides in Little Rock ?

Started by chaingang, November 25, 2018, 09:57:44 pm

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PA Dad

Quote from: Pr8hd on November 28, 2018, 02:47:04 pm
Showing your lack of knowledge or jealousy, not sure which, but what do you expect from our Hwy 10 neighbors.

Take a look at the GW roster or better yet come see if they pass the genetic lottery eye test versus Benton. If GW is recruiting kids like our plethora of 5-10" lineman that weigh maybe 200-225 , then we need to have a serious discussion with the recruiting coordinator to step up his game and get some of the 6'2"- 6'4" variety others seem to be blessed with. 

Pretty much all of GW's QB's (who have been the main studs) have been GW kids whose parents also have GW ties where at least one was an alum. That includes Holt, Noland, Hales, Wilson, etc.  Add in our 5'10 lineman and you have one of the top recruiting classes, I guess.   ::)

I've made the same argument many times.  I defy anyone to look at PA players and say anyone would recruit them, with a few exceptions such as Hudson Henry.  And 90+% of PA players have been at PA since grade or middle school.

Lions84

Reminds me of people asking if Pappa Frank McClellan could have as much success at other places as he did at Barton. He like Kelly was in total control pee wee thur 12 grade! 

Pr8hd

Quote from: PA Dad on November 28, 2018, 05:22:29 pm
I've made the same argument many times.  I defy anyone to look at PA players and say anyone would recruit them, with a few exceptions such as Hudson Henry.  And 90+% of PA players have been at PA since grade or middle school.

+1 PA

Many times successful programs get lumped into the recruiting bucket, but sometimes success recruits itself when parents move in and they are deciding where to buy a home or raise kids that have some athletic ability. 

A good program with great coaching recruits itself. It takes kids that may be marginally average athletes in some cases (the aforementioned 5'10" guys) and coaches them up to play like 6'2" guys in effort and execution. 

PA Dad

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 26, 2018, 02:51:21 pm
It does raise an interesting question - what are the top 5 HS coaching jobs in Arkansas?

I'll say Fayetteville, NLR, Bryant, PA and Greenwood.

Pine Bluff and Warren aren't bad either.

PA Dad

Quote from: Eddie Goodson on November 28, 2018, 02:45:36 pm
The private school "advantage" has nothing to do with IEPs or 504s. The "advantage" is that almost all the kids come from two parent homes and have a stable support structure to help the student succeed in academics and athletics. Same thread will generally hold true in perennially successful public schools. Building winning programs start in the home. Always has, always will.

Absolutely correct.  But, while it starts at home, it still requires a great coach to pull it all together.

Youngsta71701

Quote from: chaingang on November 25, 2018, 09:57:44 pm
I have wondered this for some time now. Could he win in Batesville , Camden Fairview , Hope, Wynne, Blytheville and so on.....could he go to any smaller town and run his system and have the same success  ?
I don't know but I know one thing. I wouldn't mind finding out if he could win at Camden Fairview lol. And one more thing. I really think P.A. should petition to play in the 6A or 7A. Just a thought.

JacketFan

Quote from: chaingang on November 25, 2018, 09:57:44 pm
I have wondered this for some time now. Could he win in Batesville , Camden Fairview , Hope, Wynne, Blytheville and so on.....could he go to any smaller town and run his system and have the same success  ?
Yes he could win, but none of the aforementioned schools could get anywhere close to what PA is probably paying him.  If I had to guess, he is probably the highest paid high school coach in Arkansas, right behind Chad Morris. lol  ;D ;D ;D

Ventman

Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2018, 10:25:01 pm
I was obviously being sarcastic maybe because this question has been posed on this board several times.

Kelley is in an ideal situation.  He is athletic director as well as head coach so he has absolute control.  He starts the kids in his system in the 5th grade.  He has highly motivated kids who have the advantage of parents who will send players to summer camps.  He has players who are generally intelligent.  And he has players who believe absolutely in his system.

But he is also an astute student of the game.  It might take him a couple of years but he would be successful at any school.  But I doubt that he could match what he has done at PA because I doubt that he could find a school that gives him the advantages he has at P.A.

But, he is the major reason for PA's success.
He would win at any other schools if he had the players. You can have players who know his system to a t but they have to be good players for him or anyone else to succeed. You can take the best coaches in the world put them on a team with poor players and they will not win.

Pr8hd

Quote from: Ventman on November 29, 2018, 01:32:03 pm
He would win at any other schools if he had the players. You can have players who know his system to a t but they have to be good players for him or anyone else to succeed. You can take the best coaches in the world put them on a team with poor players and they will not win.

Take a bad coach with superior talent and put it on a team with bad schemes, play calling, no discipline, etc. and you will have a very mediocre team on your hands likely.

game on

So what are the absolutely worst teams as far as historical win loss records in arkansas and cold KK turn them into perennial state championship contenders?

Youngsta71701

Quote from: game on on November 29, 2018, 04:40:17 pm
So what are the absolutely worst teams as far as historical win loss records in arkansas and cold KK turn them into perennial state championship contenders?
Not sure but the former Fayetteville coach has done a great job turning Bauxite around. Just another one of the reasons why I think coaching is high school is so important.

polksalet

Kelly is the best high school coach in Arkansas and I don't think it's close.

sevenof400


game on

Kelly is a very good coach, no doubt.  However doing what he is doing at PA and its advantages have been thoroughly discussed on this site.  I think to make the statement you do he would need to do the same thing at a public school with its relative problems.  A guy like Billy Dawson has won multiple championships and done it at a couple of schools and has won at just about every classification in the state.  Not saying  he is or isn't the best coach in Arkansas just using this as an example.  Jones at GW also another guy with great success.

Flobbito


game on

Everybody is entitled to an opinion.  I do think NLR sent out calls to just about every top team in state looking to fill its schedule the last few years.  I don't remember PA jumping on board. 

Eddie Goodson

Quote from: game on on December 02, 2018, 08:45:28 pm
Everybody is entitled to an opinion.  I do think NLR sent out calls to just about every top team in state looking to fill its schedule the last few years.  I don't remember PA jumping on board.
I wouldn't have either. I wouldn't want to be what amounts to a 3A team playing a 7A team and end up with hurt and banged up players for a non conference game.

game on

Quote from: Eddie Goodson on December 02, 2018, 08:50:37 pm
I wouldn't have either. I wouldn't want to be what amounts to a 3A team playing a 7A team and end up with hurt and banged up players for a non conference game.

And that's fine and understandable.  If you are afraid don't play.  If you don't want to play then don't speculate about who would win.

PA Dad

Quote from: game on on December 02, 2018, 08:45:28 pm
Everybody is entitled to an opinion.  I do think NLR sent out calls to just about every top team in state looking to fill its schedule the last few years.  I don't remember PA jumping on board.

I have no idea whether NLR tried to schedule a game with P.A.  But I'd be very surprised if Kelley would turn down an invitation to play NLR.  PA played Salt Lake City East which was a national power.  PA played Highland Park two years in a row.  Kelley has never shied from playing the best teams - he has sought them out.

game on

My understanding is an open invitation was issued when Mitchell came to town.  I don't see them on NLR's schedule. Perhaps NLR wasn't glamorous enough?

PA Dad

Quote from: game on on December 02, 2018, 09:12:39 pm
My understanding is an open invitation was issued when Mitchell came to town.  I don't see them on NLR's schedule. Perhaps NLR wasn't glamorous enough?

As I said, I just don't know.  I didn't hear about the open invitation.  What is the source of your information?

game on

Oh, I'm like a journalist, can't reveal my sources or they will not share with me any more.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: game on on December 02, 2018, 09:30:46 pm
Oh, I'm like a journalist, can't reveal my sources or they will not share with me any more.
Maybe your information is wrong

game on

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 02, 2018, 09:33:56 pm
Maybe your information is wrong

Maybe, but I'm a known for being a bit skeptical and I trust the person who shared the information. 

PA Dad

Quote from: game on on December 02, 2018, 10:19:43 pm
Maybe, but I'm a known for being a bit skeptical and I trust the person who shared the information.

That makes it difficult to assess the accuracy of the information.  If it was an open invitation why didn't the rest of us hear about it?

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

Game on - when I was assistant AD at PA, I contacted every top 6A and 7A school in the state to schedule a game. The only two teams we we're ever able to agree - Cabot and West Memphis.

It is interesting that after I left, I had heard similar stories to yours that a certain school wanted to schedule and PA wouldn't take them up on it, although that was the opposite of my experience.  I'm not saying that's the case here, but I don't see Coach Kelley backing down to NLR then scheduling Har-Ber 3 hours away.  In my personal conversations, Coach Kelley has expressed that he would love to play NLR as well as Central in non-conference (when they were better, I'm not sure how they are now).

I know that the biggest excuse was that teams couldn't get their schedules to match up or "our administration won't let us play you."

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

To be fair, several teams were locked into schedules...not saying they were all "scared", just that if people are saying it was the other way around, they are probably not being truthful.

game on

Well PA dad in answer to your question I would say you must not be on the list of those scheduling games.  Coach DePriest to you I say why would I believe you any more than you appear to disbelieve me.  I'm not sure what year you left PA but maybe it was after you had departed.
I'll stick to my belief in the honesty of the source and I'm sure you will do the same with your sources.
All I know is what I was told.

POWERCAT PRIDE



Let's just go ahead and say it and stop dancing around it.  What I am reading is... In order for KK's system to work and dominate, you need smart white kids? Isn't this also similar to Greenwood and Jones?  The Shiloh Christian teams of Gus? Heck maybe even the teams of the past in Cabot?  So Kelly couldn't take his system into a talent rich environment like NLR, Pine Bluff, El Dorado, etc. and teach those kids his system because they are predominantly black?  Let's face it, the two most dominant teams in 6A and 5A are undoubtedly Greenwood and PA and they both run a "system" that requires intelligence over athleticism....and they are 90% white. 

RazorDad

Quote from: POWERCAT PRIDE on December 03, 2018, 08:37:58 am

Let's just go ahead and say it and stop dancing around it.  What I am reading is... In order for KK's system to work and dominate, you need smart white kids? Isn't this also similar to Greenwood and Jones?  The Shiloh Christian teams of Gus? Heck maybe even the teams of the past in Cabot?  So Kelly couldn't take his system into a talent rich environment like NLR, Pine Bluff, El Dorado, etc. and teach those kids his system because they are predominantly black?  Let's face it, the two most dominant teams in 6A and 5A are undoubtedly Greenwood and PA and they both run a "system" that requires intelligence over athleticism....and they are 90% white.

Have we been reading the same thread?  ???

we_hate_the_band

Quote from: POWERCAT PRIDE on December 03, 2018, 08:37:58 am

Let's just go ahead and say it and stop dancing around it.  What I am reading is... In order for KK's system to work and dominate, you need smart white kids? Isn't this also similar to Greenwood and Jones?  The Shiloh Christian teams of Gus? Heck maybe even the teams of the past in Cabot?  So Kelly couldn't take his system into a talent rich environment like NLR, Pine Bluff, El Dorado, etc. and teach those kids his system because they are predominantly black?  Let's face it, the two most dominant teams in 6A and 5A are undoubtedly Greenwood and PA and they both run a "system" that requires intelligence over athleticism....and they are 90% white.

I bet this guy's IP address is in Boone county.

POWERCAT PRIDE

Quote from: Sasquatch71 on November 26, 2018, 08:53:27 am
Win?  Absolutely.  Would he have the machine he has at PA?  No.  It just doesn't happen in public schools.  You get what you get in public schools.  Not talking athlete wise, I am talking student wise.  Coaching kids that have 504 plans is completely different than coaching kids, as it was said in a reply to one of my previous post, who take SATs and all AP classes.  Again this is just the way it is.  But Kelley would definitely win anywhere he went but it would most likely not be 5 titles in a row kinda winning.

I don't know Razor....you tell me what this means? And I am not picking on Sasquatch or anyone else.  PADad made a similar post. I am not calling out anybody.  I am just reading between the lines.

POWERCAT PRIDE

Quote from: game on on November 26, 2018, 01:15:59 pm
Kelly is obviously a very good coach but as was pointed out, the advantages he has at PA can probably not be matched.  Dealing with students with much more difficult home situations and other committments would cause some problems.  Kids working, kids with those 504's, kids that are more of a discipline problem, parents that are less supportive.  All this would have an effect.. Win certainly but I don't think you would see 5 in a row.  That rare group that comes through and wins 2 or 3 is rare in the public school.

Here we go again. Kids with discipline problems, difficult home situations. Are we talking race or just socioeconomic situations? Can he only win with rich, privileged kids?

POWERCAT PRIDE

And again let me stress, I am not calling out anyone about their posts. I honestly admire and respect PADad, he is one of the most respectful and knowledgeable posters on here, as well as others. I am just not being as politically correct as some of you others have been.

Chin Music

I'm not even a PA fan and yet immediately I think of Freddie Knighten, Trey Bruce, Jaren Watkins, RJ Anderson, Isaiah Woods, Tre Johnson, Myles Fells and I'm sure the list goes on and on.  Without those kids I don't know how many titles they when but it is probably less than the 7 they have now.  I've  coached with and against those kids and their discipline and work ethic is 2nd to none.

POWERCAT PRIDE

Quote from: Chin Music on December 03, 2018, 09:28:55 am
I'm not even a PA fan and yet immediately I think of Freddie Knighten, Trey Bruce, Jaren Watkins, RJ Anderson, Isaiah Woods, Tre Johnson, Myles Fells and I'm sure the list goes on and on.  Without those kids I don't know how many titles they when but it is probably less than the 7 they have now.  I've  coached with and against those kids and their discipline and work ethic is 2nd to none.

I did say "90% white" in my earlier post.

DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam

Quote from: Central AR on November 26, 2018, 09:24:37 am
Could he repeat this success at PA somewhere else? Ehhh maybe but I couldn't imagine the success he could have at Cabot, who happens to have an opening coming up. Those hallways have a lot of athleticism that aren't playing football right now. His defense would definitely improve, mainly because of having more depth, but from an X's and O's standpoint, I don't think anyone is on his level in this state. He understands his personel and evaluates the heck out of his players. Imagine if he had 175+ kids wanting to play under him and the move-ins Cabot would have. So, yes I think he can win big anywhere, given time to incorporate his philosophy.

I believe there is a coach in the 6A West that might be able to stand toe to toe with THE KEVIN KELLY!  :)

game on

There are some good coaches in this state for sure.  Anybody who believes they are so good that without the substantial talent and dedication of the student athletes and the ample support of parents and school administration that these coaches would win anyway is not thinking clearly.  If the unmatched talent of these coaches is so great I would love to see them take one of the many schools that have a history of seldom winning a game or struggling to maintain player numbers and turning those programs into perennial championship powers.

DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam

Quote from: game on on December 03, 2018, 10:51:38 am
There are some good coaches in this state for sure.  Anybody who believes they are so good that without the substantial talent and dedication of the student athletes and the ample support of parents and school administration that these coaches would win anyway is not thinking clearly.  If the unmatched talent of these coaches is so great I would love to see them take one of the many schools that have a history of seldom winning a game or struggling to maintain player numbers and turning those programs into perennial championship powers.

I can't speak on Kelly, I don't know his past.  However, CRJ has done that before.  If he can get a bunch of undersized kids from Greenwood to accomplish what he's accomplished, his system can work anywhere.  And he's proven that.  You don't win over 300 games and not be more than a "privileged white kids" coach. 

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: POWERCAT PRIDE on December 03, 2018, 08:37:58 am

Let's just go ahead and say it and stop dancing around it.  What I am reading is... In order for KK's system to work and dominate, you need smart white kids? Isn't this also similar to Greenwood and Jones?  The Shiloh Christian teams of Gus? Heck maybe even the teams of the past in Cabot?  So Kelly couldn't take his system into a talent rich environment like NLR, Pine Bluff, El Dorado, etc. and teach those kids his system because they are predominantly black?  Let's face it, the two most dominant teams in 6A and 5A are undoubtedly Greenwood and PA and they both run a "system" that requires intelligence over athleticism....and they are 90% white.
I don't think anyone is saying that. I think the system in part makes up for a lack of overwhelming athleticism. If you gave Kelley that level of talent, the system would be even better.

footballfan-tastic

Quote from: game on on December 03, 2018, 10:51:38 am
There are some good coaches in this state for sure.  Anybody who believes they are so good that without the substantial talent and dedication of the student athletes and the ample support of parents and school administration that these coaches would win anyway is not thinking clearly.  If the unmatched talent of these coaches is so great I would love to see them take one of the many schools that have a history of seldom winning a game or struggling to maintain player numbers and turning those programs into perennial championship powers.

Interesting!!!

game on

Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on December 03, 2018, 11:26:07 am
I can't speak on Kelly, I don't know his past.  However, CRJ has done that before.  If he can get a bunch of undersized kids from Greenwood to accomplish what he's accomplished, his system can work anywhere.  And he's proven that.  You don't win over 300 games and not be more than a "privileged white kids" coach. 

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2018, 11:32:44 am
I don't think anyone is saying that. I think the system in part makes up for a lack of overwhelming athleticism. If you gave Kelley that level of talent, the system would be even better.

I'm not talking about schools with success or with good athletes.  I'm talking about the 0-10 teams year after year.  Rick Jones has done a great job at GW but I believe GW has been successful for years before Jones arrived, having won a championship under a previous coach and even won a number of games each year under Jones predecessor.   What I'm saying is take the 10 - 20 worst programs in the state and can these miracle workers make them champions? 
Don't think I'm trying to discredit any of these coaches, I'm just saying they have done a great job in good situations.  What coach in state has taken a 0-10, 1-9 team that always seems to average 0-2 wins a year or less and turned them into a consistent contender?  I don't know of any, if there are some I am curious.

POWERCAT PRIDE

GameOn...in other words...a Sheridan, Rogers/Rogers Heritage, LR Hall, Mountain Home, Magnolia, etc

PA Dad

Quote from: game on on December 03, 2018, 12:03:17 pm
I'm not talking about schools with success or with good athletes.  I'm talking about the 0-10 teams year after year.  Rick Jones has done a great job at GW but I believe GW has been successful for years before Jones arrived, having won a championship under a previous coach and even won a number of games each year under Jones predecessor.   What I'm saying is take the 10 - 20 worst programs in the state and can these miracle workers make them champions? 
Don't think I'm trying to discredit any of these coaches, I'm just saying they have done a great job in good situations.  What coach in state has taken a 0-10, 1-9 team that always seems to average 0-2 wins a year or less and turned them into a consistent contender?  I don't know of any, if there are some I am curious.

I'd say Moody at McClellan has done that.  I don't know their record before Moody was hired but I know it wasn't good.  He's made them a contender year after year.


MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2018, 01:01:33 pm
I'd say Moody at McClellan has done that.  I don't know their record before Moody was hired but I know it wasn't good.  He's made them a contender year after year.

Absolutely correct. I think he's been there 5 years now and wins 8-10 games per season. They were churning out 0-2 wins consistently for several years before that. I believe that to be the case anyway.

game on

Moody is a good pick alright.  It's been a long while since they were consistent winners.  Even with some decent talent nobody has won there in about 20 years prior to Moody.  That's a guy who took a bad situation and with hard work and some decent athletes made a loser into a winner.   

DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam

Quote from: game on on December 03, 2018, 12:03:17 pm
I'm not talking about schools with success or with good athletes.  I'm talking about the 0-10 teams year after year.  Rick Jones has done a great job at GW but I believe GW has been successful for years before Jones arrived, having won a championship under a previous coach and even won a number of games each year under Jones predecessor.   What I'm saying is take the 10 - 20 worst programs in the state and can these miracle workers make them champions? 
Don't think I'm trying to discredit any of these coaches, I'm just saying they have done a great job in good situations.  What coach in state has taken a 0-10, 1-9 team that always seems to average 0-2 wins a year or less and turned them into a consistent contender?  I don't know of any, if there are some I am curious.

What Jones has done at Greenwood starts with these boys in the 3rd grade.  Jones has the whole town, pitbull coaches, parents, grand parents, even pets, bought into his "process".  It's a cultural thing.  It could happen anywhere i believe.  BUT, most places won't give the full buy-in.  They are a basketball, or soccer, or volleyball town.  It's truly hard to explain, but these kids buy in when they start playing in 3rd grade.  And it becomes a "machine".  This group of seniors are 73-2 since 7th grade.   And have 2 state championship rings.  Outside of Conner Nolan, and Tyler Wilson, none of these kids pass the "eye test".  Not even Drew or Grant Morgan.  They just drank the Jones kool-aid and bought 100% in.  Could it work anywhere?  Yes.  But it doesn't, for various reasons.   

Fan1958

Be interesting to see what he could do at Brinkley, Marianna Lee, Marvell, etc.

AirWarren

Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2018, 01:01:33 pm
I'd say Moody at McClellan has done that.  I don't know their record before Moody was hired but I know it wasn't good.  He's made them a contender year after year.



Moody is always a big name when coaching time comes around at the end of the season.

You LR guys in the know, will the new SWLR high school be getting new athletic facilities along with the new school or will they continue to play games at the JA Fair or LRM stadiums?

If everything is new, don't see Moody going anywhere with brand new facilities and improved infrastructure.

72113

Quote from: AirWarren on December 03, 2018, 04:02:59 pm
Moody is always a big name when coaching time comes around at the end of the season.

You LR guys in the know, will the new SWLR high school be getting new athletic facilities along with the new school or will they continue to play games at the JA Fair or LRM stadiums?

If everything is new, don't see Moody going anywhere with brand new facilities and improved infrastructure.

New stadium with field turf.  Not sure about an indoor facility.

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