The Koran

[Wampus_Cat]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

[The Reality is back...]

I have trouble reading the old testament of the bible. I tried twice to start reading some stuff in the Koran, got bored, like I do with the Bible, and watched Aqua Teen, probably.

[SandLizard04]

I've glanced through some of it. I've been wanting to read it for a long time, but just have never had the time to do a detailed study.

It is quite similar, indeed. I think the main difference between Islam and Christianity, other than the whole Jesus is God thing, are the various worship service rules and traditions that have been established by their respective church leaders over the past several centuries, which have nothing to do with the core faith beliefs.

[the game]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

[Uncle Ivan]

I ordered one for free from the terrorist apologist group CAIR.  Looked up a few things I wanted to see; it's been gathering dust since on the bottom of the bookshelf, which is against islamic doctrine or something. 

The thing I never realized is how heavy the farging thing is. 

[jsgrammer]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

[the game]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

[jsgrammer]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

The Trinity, as I understand it, is a concept developed after the Bible was compiled in the 4th century @ the Council of Nicea (as the word Trinity is found no where in it).  It contends that our Heavenly father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all one individual, yet somehow separate.  The verses in Matt. you refer to are more likely a reference to the authority Jesus held as a Melchizedek priesthood holder (see Hebrews chapter 5), not that he and God and the Holy spirit inhabit the same form.  The Melchizedek priesthood is the same one he (Jesus) bestowed on Peter when he spoke of the "keys to the kingdom" In Matt 16:19.  It even explains the same concept here as in Matt 28, that the power of it is to be able to bind on Earth things which will be bound likewise in heaven.  The salvation by grace reference is valid, as it notes that salvation is not by works alone.  It is our heavenly father's part of our covenant we make when we accept the salvation given to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Our part of the covenant is our faith, endurance, and works.  James 2:14-26, Rev.2:26, Matt.10:22,24:13, Mark 13:13.
Many Christians are aware of the salvation by grace part of the covenant, but are foggy at best on our part of the agreement.

[Made]

This is a bit off the subject, but wasn't Muhammad studying Christianity, and then kicked out before learning the new testament?  He took back what he had learned, which was only the old testament.  Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but this is something I heard when i was very young.  My parents may have told a white lie, to encourage my beliefs.

[Uncle Ivan]

This is a bit off the subject, but wasn't Muhammad studying Christianity, and then kicked out before learning the new testament? 

Who knows what he was doing when he wasn't murdering and raping underage girls.

[Eddie Goodson]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

The Trinity, as I understand it, is a concept developed after the Bible was compiled in the 4th century @ the Council of Nicea (as the word Trinity is found no where in it).  It contends that our Heavenly father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all one individual, yet somehow separate.  The verses in Matt. you refer to are more likely a reference to the authority Jesus held as a Melchizedek priesthood holder (see Hebrews chapter 5), not that he and God and the Holy spirit inhabit the same form.  The Melchizedek priesthood is the same one he (Jesus) bestowed on Peter when he spoke of the "keys to the kingdom" In Matt 16:19.  It even explains the same concept here as in Matt 28, that the power of it is to be able to bind on Earth things which will be bound likewise in heaven.  The salvation by grace reference is valid, as it notes that salvation is not by works alone.  It is our heavenly father's part of our covenant we make when we accept the salvation given to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Our part of the covenant is our faith, endurance, and works.  James 2:14-26, Rev.2:26, Matt.10:22,24:13, Mark 13:13.
Many Christians are aware of the salvation by grace part of the covenant, but are foggy at best on our part of the agreement.

I got two simple questions for anyone who denies the Trinity. If there is no Trinity, who was Jesus praying to in John 17? And, who spoke in Matt 3 when Jesus was baptized if it wasn't God the Father?

[RD™]

[Eddie Goodson]

[jsgrammer]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

The Trinity, as I understand it, is a concept developed after the Bible was compiled in the 4th century @ the Council of Nicea (as the word Trinity is found no where in it).  It contends that our Heavenly father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all one individual, yet somehow separate.  The verses in Matt. you refer to are more likely a reference to the authority Jesus held as a Melchizedek priesthood holder (see Hebrews chapter 5), not that he and God and the Holy spirit inhabit the same form.  The Melchizedek priesthood is the same one he (Jesus) bestowed on Peter when he spoke of the "keys to the kingdom" In Matt 16:19.  It even explains the same concept here as in Matt 28, that the power of it is to be able to bind on Earth things which will be bound likewise in heaven.  The salvation by grace reference is valid, as it notes that salvation is not by works alone.  It is our heavenly father's part of our covenant we make when we accept the salvation given to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Our part of the covenant is our faith, endurance, and works.  James 2:14-26, Rev.2:26, Matt.10:22,24:13, Mark 13:13.
Many Christians are aware of the salvation by grace part of the covenant, but are foggy at best on our part of the agreement.

I got two simple questions for anyone who denies the Trinity. If there is no Trinity, who was Jesus praying to in John 17? And, who spoke in Matt 3 when Jesus was baptized if it wasn't God the Father?
[/quo


He was praying to his father....in heaven.  Yes heavenly father spoke when Jesus was baptized... from heaven.  I'm not sure how this makes a point for the trinity, if anything it makes just the opposite point.  There are numerous examples of such as these that heavenly father and Jesus are two seperate beings.  Another one would be in Acts 7:55-56, where Stephen became filled with the Holy ghost and was able to look up into heaven and see Jesus standing on the right hand of God.  He told of this vision and was stoned for his trouble. (maybe the stoners were trinity proponets also)

[Eddie Goodson]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

The Trinity, as I understand it, is a concept developed after the Bible was compiled in the 4th century @ the Council of Nicea (as the word Trinity is found no where in it).  It contends that our Heavenly father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all one individual, yet somehow separate.  The verses in Matt. you refer to are more likely a reference to the authority Jesus held as a Melchizedek priesthood holder (see Hebrews chapter 5), not that he and God and the Holy spirit inhabit the same form.  The Melchizedek priesthood is the same one he (Jesus) bestowed on Peter when he spoke of the "keys to the kingdom" In Matt 16:19.  It even explains the same concept here as in Matt 28, that the power of it is to be able to bind on Earth things which will be bound likewise in heaven.  The salvation by grace reference is valid, as it notes that salvation is not by works alone.  It is our heavenly father's part of our covenant we make when we accept the salvation given to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Our part of the covenant is our faith, endurance, and works.  James 2:14-26, Rev.2:26, Matt.10:22,24:13, Mark 13:13.
Many Christians are aware of the salvation by grace part of the covenant, but are foggy at best on our part of the agreement.

I got two simple questions for anyone who denies the Trinity. If there is no Trinity, who was Jesus praying to in John 17? And, who spoke in Matt 3 when Jesus was baptized if it wasn't God the Father?

He was praying to his father....in heaven.  Yes heavenly father spoke when Jesus was baptized... from heaven.  I'm not sure how this makes a point for the trinity, if anything it makes just the opposite point.  There are numerous examples of such as these that heavenly father and Jesus are two seperate beings.  Another one would be in Acts 7:55-56, where Stephen became filled with the Holy ghost and was able to look up into heaven and see Jesus standing on the right hand of God.  He told of this vision and was stoned for his trouble. (maybe the stoners were trinity proponets also)

So the debate isn't about the Trinity, it's about the deity of Jesus Christ. That's two different things.

[jsgrammer]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

[the game]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

The Trinity, as I understand it, is a concept developed after the Bible was compiled in the 4th century @ the Council of Nicea (as the word Trinity is found no where in it).  It contends that our Heavenly father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all one individual, yet somehow separate.  The verses in Matt. you refer to are more likely a reference to the authority Jesus held as a Melchizedek priesthood holder (see Hebrews chapter 5), not that he and God and the Holy spirit inhabit the same form.  The Melchizedek priesthood is the same one he (Jesus) bestowed on Peter when he spoke of the "keys to the kingdom" In Matt 16:19.  It even explains the same concept here as in Matt 28, that the power of it is to be able to bind on Earth things which will be bound likewise in heaven.  The salvation by grace reference is valid, as it notes that salvation is not by works alone.  It is our heavenly father's part of our covenant we make when we accept the salvation given to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Our part of the covenant is our faith, endurance, and works.  James 2:14-26, Rev.2:26, Matt.10:22,24:13, Mark 13:13.
Many Christians are aware of the salvation by grace part of the covenant, but are foggy at best on our part of the agreement.

I got two simple questions for anyone who denies the Trinity. If there is no Trinity, who was Jesus praying to in John 17? And, who spoke in Matt 3 when Jesus was baptized if it wasn't God the Father?

He was praying to his father....in heaven.  Yes heavenly father spoke when Jesus was baptized... from heaven.  I'm not sure how this makes a point for the trinity, if anything it makes just the opposite point.  There are numerous examples of such as these that heavenly father and Jesus are two seperate beings.  Another one would be in Acts 7:55-56, where Stephen became filled with the Holy ghost and was able to look up into heaven and see Jesus standing on the right hand of God.  He told of this vision and was stoned for his trouble. (maybe the stoners were trinity proponets also)

So the debate isn't about the Trinity, it's about the deity of Jesus Christ. That's two different things.

"The Trinity"  Jesus plainly answered the Pharisees question "where is thy father?"  John chapter 8 verse 19 " If you had known me , you would have known my Father also."  then he stunned them with this conclusion , verse 24 , "If you believe not that I am Him you shall die in your sins" .                                                                          In the numerous times in the Old Testament that God appeared , no one actually saw him , only manifestations of the invisible , omnipresent , Holy Spirit .

[Eddie Goodson]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One.

[jsgrammer]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

"The Trinity" , Matthew chapter 28 verses 18/19 ,  Jesus says verse 18. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth"  19. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the "Father" and the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit"  .........  Salvation by grace , Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8/9 , 8.  For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves , it is the gift of God , not as a result of works ,that no one should boast .

The Trinity, as I understand it, is a concept developed after the Bible was compiled in the 4th century @ the Council of Nicea (as the word Trinity is found no where in it).  It contends that our Heavenly father, Jesus and the Holy spirit are all one individual, yet somehow separate.  The verses in Matt. you refer to are more likely a reference to the authority Jesus held as a Melchizedek priesthood holder (see Hebrews chapter 5), not that he and God and the Holy spirit inhabit the same form.  The Melchizedek priesthood is the same one he (Jesus) bestowed on Peter when he spoke of the "keys to the kingdom" In Matt 16:19.  It even explains the same concept here as in Matt 28, that the power of it is to be able to bind on Earth things which will be bound likewise in heaven.  The salvation by grace reference is valid, as it notes that salvation is not by works alone.  It is our heavenly father's part of our covenant we make when we accept the salvation given to us through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Our part of the covenant is our faith, endurance, and works.  James 2:14-26, Rev.2:26, Matt.10:22,24:13, Mark 13:13.
Many Christians are aware of the salvation by grace part of the covenant, but are foggy at best on our part of the agreement.

I got two simple questions for anyone who denies the Trinity. If there is no Trinity, who was Jesus praying to in John 17? And, who spoke in Matt 3 when Jesus was baptized if it wasn't God the Father?

He was praying to his father....in heaven.  Yes heavenly father spoke when Jesus was baptized... from heaven.  I'm not sure how this makes a point for the trinity, if anything it makes just the opposite point.  There are numerous examples of such as these that heavenly father and Jesus are two separate beings.  Another one would be in Acts 7:55-56, where Stephen became filled with the Holy ghost and was able to look up into heaven and see Jesus standing on the right hand of God.  He told of this vision and was stoned for his trouble. (maybe the stoners were trinity proponents also)

So the debate isn't about the Trinity, it's about the deity of Jesus Christ. That's two different things.

"The Trinity"  Jesus plainly answered the Pharisees question "where is thy father?"  John chapter 8 verse 19 " If you had known me , you would have known my Father also."  then he stunned them with this conclusion , verse 24 , "If you believe not that I am Him you shall die in your sins" .                                                                          In the numerous times in the Old Testament that God appeared , no one actually saw him , only manifestations of the invisible , omnipresent , Holy Spirit .

I understand why you would think Jesus is referring to himself as God in these passages.  This is the main reason I prefer the KJV of the Holy Bible.  It is the least translated, and therefore least reedited version we have available.  I have an opinion (not shared by everyone) that sometimes in the re-translations into various versions, the scriptures can become tainted with the editor's own theology.  This discourse in John 8 is a confrontation with the Pharisees in which Jesus proclaims his Messiahship, that is the "I am him" part.

[jsgrammer]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One.

This is the concept as I understand it also.  Can you tell me it's origin?  As the earliest direct reference I can find is the 4th century with the founding of the Roman Catholic Church.  I understand the extrapolation that has been made from various NT verses about "I and my father are one" and so forth, but this can have more than one interpretation

[Wampus_Cat]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One.

This is the concept as I understand it also.  Can you tell me it's origin?  As the earliest direct reference I can find is the 4th century with the founding of the Roman Catholic Church.  I understand the extrapolation that has been made from various NT verses about "I and my father are one" and so forth, but this can have more than one interpretation

In the Koran it says "We" repeatedly.

The funniest thing  I've seen is it seems to be more Christian than Christians. I don't really think it says "dress up for church" in the Bible, but it does in the Koran.

[Eddie Goodson]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One.

This is the concept as I understand it also.  Can you tell me it's origin?  As the earliest direct reference I can find is the 4th century with the founding of the Roman Catholic Church.  I understand the extrapolation that has been made from various NT verses about "I and my father are one" and so forth, but this can have more than one interpretation

John 1 is proof enough for me.

It's orgin is the Bible. Jesus is either who he says he is, God the Father either spoke from Heaven refering Jesus, and the Holy Spirit either decended upon Jesus at his baptism or the New Testament is useful for nothing more than rolling cigarettes or as toilet paper and we're wasting our time. You either trust Him or you don't. To try and dilute Jesus is to eliminate Him altogether. He's God or He isn't. If he isn't, we as Christians are sunk.

Ozzy Osborne made a statement that I heard with my own ears back in the eighties that showed just how ignorant some people are on Jesus Christ. He said he always felt like he was a Christian. He believed in God. It's just Jesus Christ he has a problem with. That's stupidity gone to seed right there. Sad fact is, he is not alone.

[jsgrammer]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One.

This is the concept as I understand it also.  Can you tell me it's origin?  As the earliest direct reference I can find is the 4th century with the founding of the Roman Catholic Church.  I understand the extrapolation that has been made from various NT verses about "I and my father are one" and so forth, but this can have more than one interpretation

John 1 is proof enough for me.

It's orgin is the Bible. Jesus is either who he says he is, God the Father either spoke from Heaven refering Jesus, and the Holy Spirit either decended upon Jesus at his baptism or the New Testament is useful for nothing more than rolling cigarettes or as toilet paper and we're wasting our time. You either trust Him or you don't. To try and dilute Jesus is to eliminate Him altogether. He's God or He isn't. If he isn't, we as Christians are sunk.

Ozzy Osborne made a statement that I heard with my own ears back in the eighties that showed just how ignorant some people are on Jesus Christ. He said he always felt like he was a Christian. He believed in God. It's just Jesus Christ he has a problem with. That's stupidity gone to seed right there. Sad fact is, he is not alone.

I am sure there are many aspects of the gospel where we would be in agreement. By the tone of your posting I can tell you are adept with the scriptures.  Please be assured I do not share Ozzie's Jesus problem.  I believe in the Father, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.  I also trust Jesus completely. 
I do however believe that the concept of the Trinity is one of man and not God.  That it's most likely origin was the early Catholic Church circa 4th century, that it was propagated through the centuries by the same, and is today accepted as orthodoxy by professional clergy.  It has thus influenced our interpretation of the meaning of the scriptures.  Without this influence it is doubtful if anyone would come to the conclusion the Trinity espouses on their own.

[Eddie Goodson]

Perhaps it's a semantics problem.  What is the concept of the Trinity as you understand it? 

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Three in One.

This is the concept as I understand it also.  Can you tell me it's origin?  As the earliest direct reference I can find is the 4th century with the founding of the Roman Catholic Church.  I understand the extrapolation that has been made from various NT verses about "I and my father are one" and so forth, but this can have more than one interpretation

John 1 is proof enough for me.

It's orgin is the Bible. Jesus is either who he says he is, God the Father either spoke from Heaven refering Jesus, and the Holy Spirit either decended upon Jesus at his baptism or the New Testament is useful for nothing more than rolling cigarettes or as toilet paper and we're wasting our time. You either trust Him or you don't. To try and dilute Jesus is to eliminate Him altogether. He's God or He isn't. If he isn't, we as Christians are sunk.

Ozzy Osborne made a statement that I heard with my own ears back in the eighties that showed just how ignorant some people are on Jesus Christ. He said he always felt like he was a Christian. He believed in God. It's just Jesus Christ he has a problem with. That's stupidity gone to seed right there. Sad fact is, he is not alone.

I am sure there are many aspects of the gospel where we would be in agreement. By the tone of your posting I can tell you are adept with the scriptures.  Please be assured I do not share Ozzie's Jesus problem.  I believe in the Father, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.  I also trust Jesus completely. 
I do however believe that the concept of the Trinity is one of man and not God.  That it's most likely origin was the early Catholic Church circa 4th century, that it was propagated through the centuries by the same, and is today accepted as orthodoxy by professional clergy.  It has thus influenced our interpretation of the meaning of the scriptures.  Without this influence it is doubtful if anyone would come to the conclusion the Trinity espouses on their own.

The New Testament clearly says the Trinity that Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He too is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.

[jsgrammer]

We are in complete agreement on the three separate persons part. I also believe the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are Divine. Our heavenly father cares so much for us he sent us his son to atone for our sins, to die a horrible death, and achieve the miracle of rising from the dead in order to provide the gift of salvation. 
I could see that if I was ever in a situation where I had to risk and/or give my life for another what charity or love would be required.  Think about how much more would be required for you to send your only son for this purpose.  God didn't send himself.  Jesus wasn't crying out to himself on the cross.  When he appeared to Mary Mag. in the garden he didn't say "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to myself".  and so forth.
History channel has an interesting documentary last night about the early church up to the point of the council of Nicea.  Went over the secular history of Constantine's influence over the modern church.  Basically noted how the Romans squelched out all of the other existing christian sects, (many of whom did not espouse the Trinity), and then rewrote the history of the Church to make it seem that they were the domainant sect all along. 
When Jesus was on the Earth he founded a Church.  The Apostles founded branches of it.  Most of the epistles are dedicated to helping the new churches with problems, reinforcing how to worship, church organization, and so forth.  Still there where problems.  different ideas would arise among the members about what they thought they had hear the apostle say and the differences of opinion about the gospel.  After the death of the apostles, the churches carried on the best they could but broke into nearly two hundred different sects by the 4th century. 
The Trinity is just one of the things the early churches got wrong.

[Eddie Goodson]

Sounds like Jehovah's Witness theology to me. Jesus is either God or a liar. He's either all God or a liar. John 1 leaves very, very little doubt.

[jsgrammer]

Sounds like Jehovah's Witness theology to me. Jesus is either God or a liar. He's either all God or a liar. John 1 leaves very, very little doubt.

Gee, do you know a lot about JW theology?  I don't know what translation/version you are using, but mine says.....
John1 :1  "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the son.  And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the son, and the son was with God, and the son was of God."..........

The History Channel documentary folks seem to get the point of the errors in the early church history.  Do you think they are Jehovah Witnesses?

[The Reality is back...]

Sounds like Jehovah's Witness theology to me. Jesus is either God or a liar. He's either all God or a liar. John 1 leaves very, very little doubt.

You can't use the Bible to prove your point to someone who doesn't believe the same thing you do.

Imagine a Muslim trying to tell you about Islam by quoting the Koran, it doesn't work.

[Eddie Goodson]

Sounds like Jehovah's Witness theology to me. Jesus is either God or a liar. He's either all God or a liar. John 1 leaves very, very little doubt.

Gee, do you know a lot about JW theology?  I don't know what translation/version you are using, but mine says.....
John1 :1  "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the son.  And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the son, and the son was with God, and the son was of God."..........

The History Channel documentary folks seem to get the point of the errors in the early church history.  Do you think they are Jehovah Witnesses?

You, yourself said you perfer the KJV. That sure as shootin' ain't the KJV of the Bible. Whatever version it is isn't worth the paper it's printed on considering it has totally changed the translation of that verse compared to virtually every other translation I have seen.

The last place I'll study my theology is the History Channel.

[Eddie Goodson]

Sounds like Jehovah's Witness theology to me. Jesus is either God or a liar. He's either all God or a liar. John 1 leaves very, very little doubt.

You can't use the Bible to prove your point to someone who doesn't believe the same thing you do.

Imagine a Muslim trying to tell you about Islam by quoting the Koran, it doesn't work.

Absolutely agree. He's using the Bible, or a perverted translation of it, to state his case.

[CatsRule]

Looks like he is referencing the Book of Mormon.

[Eddie Goodson]

Looks like he is referencing the Book of Mormon.

Ahh. Gotcha.

[holdup]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

I also prefer the KJV.  The more current translations butchered much of the Bible--just like the best verse about the Trinity.  I John 5:7  says "There are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are One.  So, there is a reference to the Trinity if you use the best translation.  (the others have "there are three that testify")

[SandLizard04]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

I also prefer the KJV.  The more current translations butchered much of the Bible--just like the best verse about the Trinity.  I John 5:7  says "There are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are One.  So, there is a reference to the Trinity if you use the best translation.  (the others have "there are three that testify" (pathetic)

So what you're saying is, translations can confuse meanings, or delete them entirely, over hundreds of years and across languages?


Example #17 of why I'm so skeptical about the infallibility of the Bible and other church teachings being absolutely infallible.

(Let it be known, I think the basic tenets of the Bible are true and good...I just have my doubts that every single word in print today is the way God, or whoever, intended it to be.)

[jsgrammer]

Anyone else read it?

I've started...and so far I've seen no difference from the Bible.

At all.

I'm probably 4 chapters in though.

The Qur'an "Koran" denies "The Trinity" , denies Jesus is God , denies Jesus was crucified and did not rise from the dead and  is not the Son of God , also the Koran says the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel , where the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead , and the Bible says man will receive Salvation by grace through faith , while the Koran says man can receive salvation by sincerity and works , there are others but these are ..........

I was just curious about your bible references.  Can you point to the reference to the trinity for example.  Where is the reference to the Holy spirit being a third of the godhead, and the whole salvation by grace reference?

I also prefer the KJV.  The more current translations butchered much of the Bible--just like the best verse about the Trinity.  I John 5:7  says "There are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are One.  So, there is a reference to the Trinity if you use the best translation.  (the others have "there are three that testify" (pathetic)

So what you're saying is, translations can confuse meanings, or delete them entirely, over hundreds of years and across languages?


Example #17 of why I'm so skeptical about the infallibility of the Bible and other church teachings being absolutely infallible.

(Let it be known, I think the basic tenets of the Bible are true and good...I just have my doubts that every single word in print today is the way God, or whoever, intended it to be.)

This is the point.  To know whether or not you can beleive the scriptures, you have to understand their origin.   

[phdefense]

We are in complete agreement on the three separate persons part. I also believe the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are Divine. Our heavenly father cares so much for us he sent us his son to atone for our sins, to die a horrible death, and achieve the miracle of rising from the dead in order to provide the gift of salvation. 
I could see that if I was ever in a situation where I had to risk and/or give my life for another what charity or love would be required.  Think about how much more would be required for you to send your only son for this purpose.  God didn't send himself.  Jesus wasn't crying out to himself on the cross.  When he appeared to Mary Mag. in the garden he didn't say "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to myself".  and so forth.
History channel has an interesting documentary last night about the early church up to the point of the council of Nicea.  Went over the secular history of Constantine's influence over the modern church.  Basically noted how the Romans squelched out all of the other existing christian sects, (many of whom did not espouse the Trinity), and then rewrote the history of the Church to make it seem that they were the domainant sect all along. 
When Jesus was on the Earth he founded a Church.  The Apostles founded branches of it.  Most of the epistles are dedicated to helping the new churches with problems, reinforcing how to worship, church organization, and so forth.  Still there where problems.  different ideas would arise among the members about what they thought they had hear the apostle say and the differences of opinion about the gospel.  After the death of the apostles, the churches carried on the best they could but broke into nearly two hundred different sects by the 4th century. 
The Trinity is just one of the things the early churches got wrong.

You are so very close. I think you are hanging up on a word instead of focusing on if the idea is truth. Your being is made up of different parts.

Mind
Body
Spirit

This is the same idea of God, and how he created you in his image. a three part being.

Father
Son
Spirit

[Billyo62]

You were Close!

[Jesusfreak]

One way to look at the trinity is:
water
ice
steam
All different, all the same thing.

[Billyo62]

One way to look at the trinity is:
water
ice
steam
All different, all the same thing.

J-Freak- you are wrong they are not the same thing, if they were you could drink steam and you could drink Ice, just  because they consist of the same elements in different stages does not make them the same,   

You can hold a Rock but you can't hold LAVA....why not...because they are NOT the same.

[Jesusfreak]

Notice I said all DIFFERENT, all the same thing.
H20 is H2O.

You seem to want to argue just for the sake of arguing. I wasn't trying to start an argument.

[Billyo62]

Notice I said all DIFFERENT, all the same thing.
H20 is H2O.

You seem to want to argue just for the sake of arguing. I wasn't trying to start an argument.

Make a better point.. use better examples..next time I will either throw water in your face or a block of ICE...it's the same thing!    you tell me later which one leaves a mark! 

[Jesusfreak]

  Well, you could spray me with a high pressure hydro blasting wand and it would do more damage than hitting me with a block of ice! ha! ha!

[Billyo62]

Well, you could spray me with a high pressure hydro blasting wand and it would do more damage than hitting me with a block of ice! ha! ha!

Now I will give you that one, but you are using something else to propel the Water, If I shot a block of Ice out of a cannon it would bust you up in a million pieces and probably kill the neighbors and all there kids before it broke into pieces.

I will let you go, just use better examples.. and I won't chime in!

All in good fun!   

[Jesusfreak]

  The water ice steam analogy WAS a great example! Admit it! Your ramblings about lava and rocks and all of that was the terrible example in this scenerio!! 

[Billyo62]

The water ice steam analogy WAS a great example! Admit it! Your ramblings about lava and rocks and all of that was the terrible example in this scenerio!! 

J-Freak---God is make believe, if you believe in it and it makes you happy... go for it......pray for my salvation! 

[Jesusfreak]

Billyo62, all jokes aside, trust me, there is a God. I'm sorry that you don't believe that. I'm not trying to judge you or mess with you at all. I know this is an old saying, but if you found a watch on the ground, would you think that time, chance, wind, etc. somehow molded the metal and components together to form the watch? Of course not.

   Then just look at yourself. Even the smallest cell in your body is a million times more intricate and complex than the most elabarate watch in the world. Look how they form tissues and organs and systems. Think about your eye, with its automatic aiming mechanism, auto focusing, and automatic aperture adjustment,etc.. The complexity of it. Our DNA stores more information than the most sophisticated computer storing devices. The information storage capacity of our brains is staggering.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on. In short, our bodies are a marvel of engineering and design. And just as every watch has a watchmaker, you have a maker as well. Design demands a designer.

Evidence of creation is all around you if will only see it.

By the way, I was an atheist for many years. I used to enjoy telling all those "unenlightened" Christians how their God was a figment of their imagination.I loved mocking peoples faith. Turns out I was the unenlightened one...

Lets just say I saw the light. Now I'm just a plain ole Jesusfreak! LOL I would have NEVER believed it if someone would have told me I would become a Christian back then!

I just pray that GOD opens every door needed for you to see that he is real. Take care.

[Billyo62]

Billyo62, all jokes aside, trust me, there is a God. I'm sorry that you don't believe that. I'm not trying to judge you or mess with you at all. I know this is an old saying, but if you found a watch on the ground, would you think that time, chance, wind, etc. somehow molded the metal and components together to form the watch? Of course not.

   Then just look at yourself. Even the smallest cell in your body is a million times more intricate and complex than the most elabarate watch in the world. Look how they form tissues and organs and systems. Think about your eye, with its automatic aiming mechanism, auto focusing, and automatic aperture adjustment,etc.. The complexity of it. Our DNA stores more information than the most sophisticated computer storing devices. The information storage capacity of our brains is staggering.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on. In short, our bodies are a marvel of engineering and design. And just as every watch has a watchmaker, you have a maker as well. Design demands a designer.

Evidence of creation is all around you if will only see it.

By the way, I was an atheist for many years. I used to enjoy telling all those "unenlightened" Christians how their God was a figment of their imagination.I loved mocking peoples faith. Turns out I was the unenlightened one...

Lets just say I saw the light. Now I'm just a plain ole Jesusfreak! LOL I would have NEVER believed it if someone would have told me I would become a Christian back then!

I just pray that GOD opens every door needed for you to see that he is real. Take care.

Honestly-- Thank you for your compassion, but you may need to ask yourself, when there is something that can't be explained why do you rely on the make believe to fill in the answers , because you can't understand it must be a higher power....kind of like when the church imprisoned scientists when they said the world was round....and that the earth actually revolved around the sun and not the sun around the earth.....

Have faith...but that's all it is ...it's not real and has nothing to do with the outcome of anything!

[Mike Bonds]

I ordered one for free from the terrorist apologist group CAIR.  Looked up a few things I wanted to see; it's been gathering dust since on the bottom of the bookshelf, which is against islamic doctrine or something. 

The thing I never realized is how heavy the farging thing is. 

I'd say this probably landed you on an FBI watch list, DR, but you were probably already on one.   

[Mike Bonds]

Billyo62, all jokes aside, trust me, there is a God. I'm sorry that you don't believe that. I'm not trying to judge you or mess with you at all. I know this is an old saying, but if you found a watch on the ground, would you think that time, chance, wind, etc. somehow molded the metal and components together to form the watch? Of course not.

   Then just look at yourself. Even the smallest cell in your body is a million times more intricate and complex than the most elabarate watch in the world. Look how they form tissues and organs and systems. Think about your eye, with its automatic aiming mechanism, auto focusing, and automatic aperture adjustment,etc.. The complexity of it. Our DNA stores more information than the most sophisticated computer storing devices. The information storage capacity of our brains is staggering.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on. In short, our bodies are a marvel of engineering and design. And just as every watch has a watchmaker, you have a maker as well. Design demands a designer.

Evidence of creation is all around you if will only see it.

By the way, I was an atheist for many years. I used to enjoy telling all those "unenlightened" Christians how their God was a figment of their imagination.I loved mocking peoples faith. Turns out I was the unenlightened one...

Lets just say I saw the light. Now I'm just a plain ole Jesusfreak! LOL I would have NEVER believed it if someone would have told me I would become a Christian back then!

I just pray that GOD opens every door needed for you to see that he is real. Take care.

Honestly-- Thank you for your compassion, but you may need to ask yourself, when there is something that can't be explained why do you rely on the make believe to fill in the answers , because you can't understand it must be a higher power....kind of like when the church imprisoned scientists when they said the world was round....and that the earth actually revolved around the sun and not the sun around the earth.....

Have faith...but that's all it is ...it's not real and has nothing to do with the outcome of anything!

Let's not get too confused here.  I'm pretty sure that God didn't imprison Galileo; a church ran by men did, and that act contravened the Jesus' words.  I don't remember reading "throw 'em in jail (or house arrest) and throw away the key" anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount.

As you point out, faith is not verified by empirical proof.  But neither is love or the idea that I think that mayonnaise tastes like crap.  I don't believe that everything I don't understand (and there is no shortage of that) happens because of God; I'm fairly certain a fair amount of it happens in spite of him. 

Faith, whether in God, or other people, or in yourself, must, by definition happen in the absence of proof.  But, isn't that as it should be?  What possible virtue would there be in having faith in any of these things if you could point to it on a spreadsheet?  That requires but little intellectual grandeur.  It doesn't take much contemplation to look at your breakfast bowl and decide that Fruit Loops exist.

Does God exist?  As a Christian, I have faith in that notion.  Let us say, however, for the sake of arguement, that you are right:  he does not.  What then has happened to me:  I've lived a life (mostly) that was gentle to other people, tried to do right, had friends and acquaintainces that mostly tried to do the same.  If I'm wrong, then what sweet delusion.

[phdefense]

Billyo62, all jokes aside, trust me, there is a God. I'm sorry that you don't believe that. I'm not trying to judge you or mess with you at all. I know this is an old saying, but if you found a watch on the ground, would you think that time, chance, wind, etc. somehow molded the metal and components together to form the watch? Of course not.

   Then just look at yourself. Even the smallest cell in your body is a million times more intricate and complex than the most elabarate watch in the world. Look how they form tissues and organs and systems. Think about your eye, with its automatic aiming mechanism, auto focusing, and automatic aperture adjustment,etc.. The complexity of it. Our DNA stores more information than the most sophisticated computer storing devices. The information storage capacity of our brains is staggering.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on. In short, our bodies are a marvel of engineering and design. And just as every watch has a watchmaker, you have a maker as well. Design demands a designer.

Evidence of creation is all around you if will only see it.

By the way, I was an atheist for many years. I used to enjoy telling all those "unenlightened" Christians how their God was a figment of their imagination.I loved mocking peoples faith. Turns out I was the unenlightened one...

Lets just say I saw the light. Now I'm just a plain ole Jesusfreak! LOL I would have NEVER believed it if someone would have told me I would become a Christian back then!

I just pray that GOD opens every door needed for you to see that he is real. Take care.

Honestly-- Thank you for your compassion, but you may need to ask yourself, when there is something that can't be explained why do you rely on the make believe to fill in the answers , because you can't understand it must be a higher power....kind of like when the church imprisoned scientists when they said the world was round....and that the earth actually revolved around the sun and not the sun around the earth.....

Have faith...but that's all it is ...it's not real and has nothing to do with the outcome of anything!

Does God exist?  As a Christian, I have faith in that notion.  Let us say, however, for the sake of arguement, that you are right:  he does not.  What then has happened to me:  I've lived a life (mostly) that was gentle to other people, tried to do right, had friends and acquaintainces that mostly tried to do the same.  If I'm wrong, then what sweet delusion.

That is a very good delivery of Pascal's Wager/Gambit.