Anything more than 8-0 is disgracefull, 17-0 Is shamefull

[beeroe]

A team in our state beats another team 17-0.

Really?

I read in another thread that they did everything they could to not score? Pulled senior players, possession requirements, played players out of position. Sounds to me like the players did not want to listen to their coaches. Sounds to me like there were several players simply looking to "Score a goal".
How a bout play down a man?

And so the argument is made that playing keep away is just as humiliating. Or that playing down a man would be humiliating. Hardly... that 17-0 stat is now a part of record. Possession stats are not shared. How many people you play with is not shared. Now that coach has to figure out how to keep his kids motivated an engaged after a loss like that.

So this team will play another small school this week. Happens every year when the big schools get in a pissing contest over how bad they can beat up on the small schools. But you've made your point. Small schools suck, and you have a dominant program. We all get it. Now learn how to show some respect for other people. Learn to show some mercy.

In the meantime AAA needs to address the 4A conference and the disparity of school size. You often have schools playing other schools that are literally 4 times their size. The small schools fight to have a roster of 11-15 players while the big schools show up with 30+ players. These games are not meaningful.

[beach bum]

A team in our state beats another team 18-0.

Really?

I read in another thread that they did everything they could to not score? Pulled senior players, possession requirements, played players out of position. Sounds to me like the players did not want to listen to their coaches. Sounds to me like there were several players simply looking to "Score a goal".
How a bout play down a man?

And so the argument is made that playing keep away is just as humiliating. Or that playing down a man would be humiliating. Hardly... that 18-0 stat is now a part of record. Possession stats are not shared. How many people you play with is not shared. Now that coach has to figure out how to keep his kids motivated an engaged after a loss like that.

So this team will play another small school this week. Happens every year when the big schools get in a pissing contest over how bad they can beat up on the small schools. But you've made your point. Small schools suck, and you have a dominant program. We all get it. Now learn how to show some respect for other people. Learn to show some mercy.

In the meantime AAA needs to address the 4A conference and the disparity of school size. You often have schools playing other schools that are literally 4 times their size. The small schools fight to have a roster of 11-15 players while the big schools show up with 30+ players. These games are not meaningful.

It sounds like someone took a leak in your cheerios this morning.... although on the premise of 18-0 I say that is a definitely out of classiness, however I would have to know that situation in full detail before making a rush to judgement. I would try a more solid breakfast and not the cheerios next time.

[CHSKnightsFan]

I would agree there is a lot of discrepancy in school size in 4A. Not sure how to fix it other than waiting on more schools to develop programs and then create a 3A soccer conference, but that is years out.

[beach bum]

I would agree there is a lot of discrepancy in school size in 4A. Not sure how to fix it other than waiting on more schools to develop programs and then create a 3A soccer conference, but that is years out.

The only reason more schools don't have it 3A and down is because administrations at those schools are too lazy, and/or don't value soccer. There is no reason to not have about fifteen 3A schools, ten 2A schools, and five 1A schools for a roughly 30 team classification down there. At least half the 4A schools should be playing it for their own class.

[The Coach]

A team in our state beats another team 17-0.

Really?

I read in another thread that they did everything they could to not score? Pulled senior players, possession requirements, played players out of position. Sounds to me like the players did not want to listen to their coaches. Sounds to me like there were several players simply looking to "Score a goal".
How a bout play down a man?

And so the argument is made that playing keep away is just as humiliating. Or that playing down a man would be humiliating. Hardly... that 18-0 stat is now a part of record. Possession stats are not shared. How many people you play with is not shared. Now that coach has to figure out how to keep his kids motivated an engaged after a loss like that.

So this team will play another small school this week. Happens every year when the big schools get in a pissing contest over how bad they can beat up on the small schools. But you've made your point. Small schools suck, and you have a dominant program. We all get it. Now learn how to show some respect for other people. Learn to show some mercy.

In the meantime AAA needs to address the 4A conference and the disparity of school size. You often have schools playing other schools that are literally 4 times their size. The small schools fight to have a roster of 11-15 players while the big schools show up with 30+ players. These games are not meaningful.

How about focus on getting your team and program better? You're always whining about school size and blah blah it's not the bigger schools fault that you've got low numbers. Get better and kids will come out to play its that simple, and then maybe you'll compete with the bigger schools.

[big slop]

Ok I'll bite beeroe, but if I do I must tell you that while yes the score is unnecessary but you are not very good at checking your facts. The score was 17-0 not 18. And like I said, it's very easy to go on a pee ant rant when you don't know the whole story. Call me sometime and I'll tell you everything you want to know. Maybe they didn't think to play a man down, but wouldn't it be a little demoralizing to play with 9 or 10 and still have the same result? And even still, the players that were put in were young jv players that don't get very many opportunities to play so of course they are a little gung ho. Isn't that how you get better with your future players? I am in no way justifying the score because it was never meant to happen. The coach even consulted the officials to shorten the game and call VERY closely and tight so as to take away opportunities. Bottom line, it happened. Can't change anything. Let it die. Move on and the team will learn from it. Gentry beat them 9-1 and you didn't gripe about it. But none of my business

[beach bum]

How about focus on getting your team and program better? You're always whining about school size and blah blah it's not the bigger schools fault that you've got low numbers. Get better and kids will come out to play its that simple, and then maybe you'll compete with the bigger schools.

+1

[ArkHog#7]

.

[beeroe]

Ok Guilty as charged.

Yes I am trying to stir the pot. And like someone else said I really have no ill will towards Dardanelle or their coaches. Likely it all happened so quickly that it was hard to reign it in. The point of the thread really is not to trash on their coaches but I do recognize that it is a resulting consequence. Its why I did not name any of the teams originally.

Second it is true I am all ways making school size an issue. Because it is. I wont stop whining about it until the AAA addresses it.

Someone suggested that the small schools should go out and "get better players". Haha... thats good! Where do those players come from? In a school of 160 if you have a boys and girls team. You will have more than 20% of the student body coming out (and thats if you are only making 16 players per team)! Can you imagine if one of the larger schools had those numbers? Additionally in a smaller school most of those players are playing at least two sports. Kids in small communities tend to be severely economically challenged as well, so they cant come to every practice... At a practice you dont have the consistency or numbers to have solid tactical practices. Apply a bell curve to the quality of players you have on a 16 member squad at a small school and compare that to a large school that has 25-ish players coming out. I promise you will have a better pool of players to pull from. The list of factors which challenge soccer at small schools go on and on. 

Every once and a while a small school like Green Forrest, Danville, or Decatur, has a great squad. But then they all graduate. They had good players but the issues related to small programs make it difficult to maintain consistency.

So if school size is not an issue then perhaps the larger teams in the 4A 1 should play up, not one, but two conferences? The top four largest schools in 4A 1 are 3 times the size of the bottom four. Can you imagine if the larger schools in the 4A 1 were playing against schools that had 1,300 students, or playing in the 6/7A? I guess they would not be complaining about their school size like I am now?

[beeroe]

The only reason more schools don't have it 3A and down is because administrations at those schools are too lazy, and/or don't value soccer. There is no reason to not have about fifteen 3A schools, ten 2A schools, and five 1A schools for a roughly 30 team classification down there. At least half the 4A schools should be playing it for their own class.

Man I appreciate this post!

I wish I knew what the numbers are regarding the return on investment soccer would be for small schools. As in how much would it cost for them to start and maintain a program and how it benefit their districts. I assume that soccer would be somewhat affordable if not more affordable than most of the sports they are currently invested in?

[always88]

Ok Guilty as charged.

Yes I am trying to stir the pot. And like someone else said I really have no ill will towards Dardanelle or their coaches. Likely it all happened so quickly that it was hard to reign it in. The point of the thread really is not to trash on their coaches but I do recognize that it is a resulting consequence. Its why I did not name any of the teams originally.

Second it is true I am all ways making school size an issue. Because it is. I wont stop whining about it until the AAA addresses it.

Someone suggested that the small schools should go out and "get better players". Haha... thats good! Where do those players come from? In a school of 160 if you have a boys and girls team. You will have more than 20% of the student body coming out (and thats if you are only making 16 players per team)! Can you imagine if one of the larger schools had those numbers? Additionally in a smaller school most of those players are playing at least two sports. Kids in small communities tend to be severely economically challenged as well, so they cant come to every practice... At a practice you dont have the consistency or numbers to have solid tactical practices. Apply a bell curve to the quality of players you have on a 16 member squad at a small school and compare that to a large school that has 25-ish players coming out. I promise you will have a better pool of players to pull from. The list of factors which challenge soccer at small schools go on and on. 

Every once and a while a small school like Green Forrest, Danville, or Decatur, has a great squad. But then they all graduate. They had good players but the issues related to small programs make it difficult to maintain consistency.

So if school size is not an issue then perhaps the larger teams in the 4A 1 should play up, not one, but two conferences? The top four largest schools in 4A 1 are 3 times the size of the bottom four. Can you imagine if the larger schools in the 4A 1 were playing against schools that had 1,300 students, or playing in the 6/7A? I guess they would not be complaining about their school size like I am now?

Well said!

[sevenof400]

... I would try a more solid breakfast and not the cheerios next time.

What have you got against Cheerios?  Definitely a solid breakfast choice.....    

[tevez]

Someone suggested that the small schools should go out and "get better players". Haha... thats good! Where do those players come from? In a school of 160 if you have a boys and girls team. You will have more than 20% of the student body coming out (and thats if you are only making 16 players per team)! Can you imagine if one of the larger schools had those numbers? Additionally in a smaller school most of those players are playing at least two sports. Kids in small communities tend to be severely economically challenged as well, so they cant come to every practice... At a practice you dont have the consistency or numbers to have solid tactical practices. Apply a bell curve to the quality of players you have on a 16 member squad at a small school and compare that to a large school that has 25-ish players coming out. I promise you will have a better pool of players to pull from. The list of factors which challenge soccer at small schools go on and on. 

Every once and a while a small school like Green Forrest, Danville, or Decatur, has a great squad. But then they all graduate. They had good players but the issues related to small programs make it difficult to maintain consistency.

So if school size is not an issue then perhaps the larger teams in the 4A 1 should play up, not one, but two conferences? The top four largest schools in 4A 1 are 3 times the size of the bottom four. Can you imagine if the larger schools in the 4A 1 were playing against schools that had 1,300 students, or playing in the 6/7A? I guess they would not be complaining about their school size like I am now?

Interesting.

In looking at the AAA website for 4A soccer conferences, the breakdown of each conference and size of school is below:

4A-1
6-4A Schools
3-3A Schools
2-2A Schools
1-1A School

4A-2
6-4A Schools
3-3A Schools
2-2A Schools

4A-3
5-4A Schools
1-3A Schools
3-2A Schools
1-1A School

4A-4
6-4A Schools
2-3A Schools
2-2A Schools

Ideally, the AAA would separate 4A into their own division and then go with 3A/2A/1A or possibly even a merged 4A/3A only next year and group 2A/1A together.

People are going to say what they want about the travel time argument....unfortunately one cannot "make" a school any closer than what they are.

As for the actual score of the game, what if the powers that be in that district decide to no longer offer soccer as a sport? It's happened before at some schools...that's always a possibility.

An outcome like that might also make some of the 3A/2A/1A schools think twice about fielding teams...

[sevenof400]

How about focus on getting your team and program better? You're always whining about school size and blah blah it's not the bigger schools fault that you've got low numbers. Get better and kids will come out to play its that simple, and then maybe you'll compete with the bigger schools.

The problem with this approach is soccer is unlike any other sport in this state from the standpoint that club play radically effects the quality of high school soccer.  When you say get better, it sounds so easy and yet a team that is lacking quality players cannot replicate in training the speed and demands a better opponent places on you in a game.  Closing that gap is darn near impossible UNLESS you get a considerable number of better players (which, in turn, improves the training environment which, in turn, makes your team better). 

What are the odds of a good number of soccer players developing in the school districts that need them the most? 

This isn't an easy question to answer, but it is a good one to consider. 

[striker20]

Regardless of school size, you can still have quality players even with a 15  player roster. Mostly with all due respect, you'll find that Hispanic (not trying to be stereotypical) players tend to be more skillful at the sport because it is embedded in their culture more so than it is in the US compared to football, basketball, and baseball. So starting with the younger kids might help. You may not know this, but Danville being a smaller school... Their first year and on have been at the state and finals since they began their program three seasons ago. It wasn't because of their school size. It was because the majority of their kids have been playing the sport since they could "walk" and play at out of school leagues. That makes a LOT of difference. That being said I believe that if a school really wanted to do good regardless of their size, there has to be some movement to promote the sport with peewee soccer and other programs as we do for other sports. Truth is there isn't much support from school administrators because let's face it, to them is not as important as their football program. I bet that if Danville had started their soccer program 10 years ago they would have had some championships under their belt. I say it with confidence because most of those guys are still out there playing in adult leagues.

[Soocerkidr2]

Ok Guilty as charged.

Yes I am trying to stir the pot. And like someone else said I really have no ill will towards Dardanelle or their coaches. Likely it all happened so quickly that it was hard to reign it in. The point of the thread really is not to trash on their coaches but I do recognize that it is a resulting consequence. Its why I did not name any of the teams originally.

Second it is true I am all ways making school size an issue. Because it is. I wont stop whining about it until the AAA addresses it.

Someone suggested that the small schools should go out and "get better players". Haha... thats good! Where do those players come from? In a school of 160 if you have a boys and girls team. You will have more than 20% of the student body coming out (and thats if you are only making 16 players per team)! Can you imagine if one of the larger schools had those numbers? Additionally in a smaller school most of those players are playing at least two sports. Kids in small communities tend to be severely economically challenged as well, so they cant come to every practice... At a practice you dont have the consistency or numbers to have solid tactical practices. Apply a bell curve to the quality of players you have on a 16 member squad at a small school and compare that to a large school that has 25-ish players coming out. I promise you will have a better pool of players to pull from. The list of factors which challenge soccer at small schools go on and on. 

Every once and a while a small school like Green Forrest, Danville, or Decatur, has a great squad. But then they all graduate. They had good players but the issues related to small programs make it difficult to maintain consistency.

So if school size is not an issue then perhaps the larger teams in the 4A 1 should play up, not one, but two conferences? The top four largest schools in 4A 1 are 3 times the size of the bottom four. Can you imagine if the larger schools in the 4A 1 were playing against schools that had 1,300 students, or playing in the 6/7A? I guess they would not be complaining about their school size like I am now?

Dardanelle played Russellville who is 7/6A and tied and They played Hot Springs who is 5A and win 1-0 you don't see them complaining about the school size.

[beeroe]

Dardanelle played Russellville who is 7/6A and tied and They played Hot Springs who is 5A and win 1-0 you don't see them complaining about the school size.

That's Awesome!

So should we expect them to file petition for them to play in the 5A or the 6/7A conference soon then?

[SportsDad]

Most of the top few teams in 4A not only can compete with the larger schools, but also beat them on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, they also have to play the smaller schools in conference. Most of these teams do their best not to run-up the score and try to show good sportsmanship. I have coached soccer for many years and have been on both ends of this type of situation... only once did I feel that it was intentional. My guess was that it was not intentional, but it snowballed and got out of hand real quick. If they had a history of doing this it would be one thing, but I am not aware of this happening before, so I think we should chalk it up to a one-time happening. I have witnessed some of the 4A schools do all they can to keep the score respectable, and the game still gets away despite the best efforts of the coaches and players.

[mijally]

"You miss 100% of the shots you never take."  Wayne Gretzky

[sevenof400]

This topic illustrates why (in my opinion) HS soccer in Arkansas needs promotion / relegation.  While that would not be a perfect solution, it would be a far better solution than what is in play at present. 

[beeroe]

This topic illustrates why (in my opinion) HS soccer in Arkansas needs promotion / relegation.  While that would not be a perfect solution, it would be a far better solution than what is in play at present.

Agreed!!!

Look at this thread:
http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=141690.msg3165922#msg3165922

[MDXPHD]

Most of the top few teams in 4A not only can compete with the larger schools, but also beat them on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, they also have to play the smaller schools in conference. Most of these teams do their best not to run-up the score and try to show good sportsmanship. I have coached soccer for many years and have been on both ends of this type of situation... only once did I feel that it was intentional. My guess was that it was not intentional, but it snowballed and got out of hand real quick. If they had a history of doing this it would be one thing, but I am not aware of this happening before, so I think we should chalk it up to a one-time happening. I have witnessed some of the 4A schools do all they can to keep the score respectable, and the game still gets away despite the best efforts of the coaches and players.

Nope.

[Galan]

This is going a lot further than it should be. It's just a game.

[mijally]

This topic illustrates why (in my opinion) HS soccer in Arkansas needs promotion / relegation.  While that would not be a perfect solution, it would be a far better solution than what is in play at present.

I agree with that. I would do the relegating right after the regular season. I would let the coaches decide their regular season opponents. Essentially no conferences. You can decide who the opponent is, where you play, home and home, rivalries. Anyone including tournaments.  Then after the 16 game regular season all the teams are ranked regardless of size.  The top 16 regardless of size play for the Division 1 state title. Next 16 regardless of size play for D2. Next 16 for 4a and under only for D3 and next 16 2a and under only for D4. 64 total teams in the state tournament, just like now except more evenly matched.

[MDXPHD]

I agree with that. I would do the relegating right after the regular season. I would let the coaches decide their regular season opponents. Essentially no conferences. You can decide who the opponent is, where you play, home and home, rivalries. Anyone including tournaments.  Then after the 16 game regular season all the teams are ranked regardless of size.  The top 16 regardless of size play for the Division 1 state title. Next 16 regardless of size play for D2. Next 16 for 4a and under only for D3 and next 16 2a and under only for D4. 64 total teams in the state tournament, just like now except more evenly matched.

There would be a great disparity between the top 16 teams. People will argue this I'm sure. I think the top 10 teams might be closely matched, but then the rest would be out of luck and rarely participate in a title match. You would have teams slacking that are on the line in this system, such as a team ranked 14th, so that they will drop a level and have a shot at the title. How would you rank the teams? It seems like an impossibility.

[beeroe]

In regards to promotion/relegation there are several other states that are adopting policies that are really similar. I will copy and paste those below.

However Arkansas has another really good reason to have conferences that are based not just on performance but also geographic location, rather than just school size (Yes yes I know this defeats my original argument, but in the end my argument is really more about providing competitive and meaningful games than anything.).. There are few states which are so geographically challenged as Arkansas. So the conferences should be based on historical performance with in a geographic region. 

Here are thoughts from another thread.

Indiana has a reclassification cycle every two years. It is based on a "Tournament Success Factor"

In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport
basis dependent on the School's previous tournament series success.
a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series
they achieve as follows:
(1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point
(2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points
(3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points
(4.) State Championship - Four (4) points
b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in
Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or
greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment
classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle.
c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Three (3) points or below in a specific sport
shall be placed in the classification dictated by their enrollment for the next reclassification
and realignment cycle.
d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport
shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two(2) years.
e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall
Rule 2 - Classification of Schools
19
move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification
and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class
in that sport.

Oregon has a petition process which would allow non competitive teams to play down a conference if they are essentially in the bottom 50% of their conference for 3 years. They can also petition if they have greater than 75% of their school is on assisted lunch.

Colorado has a similar system.

[mijally]

There would be a great disparity between the top 16 teams. People will argue this I'm sure. I think the top 10 teams might be closely matched, but then the rest would be out of luck and rarely participate in a title match. You would have teams slacking that are on the line in this system, such as a team ranked 14th, so that they will drop a level and have a shot at the title. How would you rank the teams? It seems like an impossibility.

There already is a big disparity between the 1 overall seed and the 16 seed in a state tournament. As far as tanking games, I guess you could if you wanted like you can now if you would rather be a 4 seed instead of a 3 seed. Or be on a different side of the bracket. But you are being ranked so how are you going to know the effect?  How to rank is a big question but those ranking programs are pretty accurate if the data entered is accurate. I make a living off one of those so I know. Past year results don't mean a lot today when you have new rosters.

[SportsDad]

Nope.

I have seen two 4A teams that can and have beaten larger classification teams this year... Dardanelle and Warren... of course, those two might be the best two teams in 4A, but they can hold their own again MOST of the larger classification teams....not ALL of the larger classification teams. Both would compete for the 5A title and probably the 6A title... maybe not 7A

[Badger]

I have seen two 4A teams that can and have beaten larger classification teams this year... Dardanelle and Warren... of course, those two might be the best two teams in 4A, but they can hold their own again MOST of the larger classification teams....not ALL of the larger classification teams. Both would compete for the 5A title and probably the 6A title... maybe not 7A

I agree with your clarification and will go a step further by saying both Dardanelle and Warren can compete with the top 7A teams.  I think the problem may have been the "beat them on a consistent basis" statement and the suggestion there might be several 4A teams that could do so.  To be clear, this year Dardanelle and Warren are the only 4A teams that can compete with anybody. 

[Buck183]

Regardless of school size, you can still have quality players even with a 15  player roster. Mostly with all due respect, you'll find that Hispanic (not trying to be stereotypical) players tend to be more skillful at the sport because it is embedded in their culture more so than it is in the US compared to football, basketball, and baseball.

I agree with this theory to some extent. On the boys side of things, yes. On the girls side, no.

Buck

[Badger]

I wasn't sure what to think about this topic until tonight, since I had never been a part of a loss/win of that magnitude in soccer.  However, I witnessed Catholic up on Van Buren 7-0 at the half tonight.  During half time, the Catholic coach told his team to stop scoring at 8-0, to which the players obliged.  Catholic could have easily put up another 10 in 2nd half.  Van Buren had no life left and the looks on the boys faces was saddening.  The Catholic boys sensed it and once they got to goal, dribbled the ball across the goal and/or passed out or back.  The thought of 10 more goals poured in this situation is sickening.  So, now I see NO excuses for Dardanelle continuing to 17 goals - Sorry.