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Illegal Substitution/Participation

Started by heidi, October 29, 2016, 01:47:50 am

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heidi

Similar to OldRetired's post--NFHS--12 men on the field in formation.  Ready for play is given.  Whistle and flag. Penatly for Illegal Substitution.  Correct?  Rule Ref?

Rulesman


new2karting

Before the snap, if the officials recognize this and shut it down, ill. sub. 3-7-1
After the snap, play should continue and it becomes a live-ball ill. participation 9-6-4c unless that 12th man was trying to leave the field, in which case it would become a live-ball foul simultaneous with the snap 3-7-4. 3-7-1b.  Now if that departing player were to participate, it would become an ill. participation 9-6-3.

Confused? 

Try applying it on Friday night.

arreferee

Quote from: new2karting on October 29, 2016, 04:51:02 pm
Before the snap, if the officials recognize this and shut it down, ill. sub. 3-7-1
After the snap, play should continue and it becomes a live-ball ill. participation 9-6-4c unless that 12th man was trying to leave the field, in which case it would become a live-ball foul simultaneous with the snap 3-7-4. 3-7-1b.  Now if that departing player were to participate, it would become an ill. participation 9-6-3.

Confused? 

Try applying it on Friday night.

It's not that bad.  If there are 12 on the field and no one is trying to leave, shut it down and penalize 5 yards.  If someone is trying to get off the field and doesn't before the snap, let the play go and penalize 5 yards.  If there are 12 on the field (no one is trying to get off) and you don't get it shut down before the snap, penalize 15 yards for illegal participation. 

blindinoneeye

The time between plays (down over to start of next 25 second clock start) should be 8-12 seconds. The Defense is *ALWAYS* counted before the ball is snapped...you should never have 12 men on the field and not know it before the snap.

arreferee

Quote from: blindinoneeye on November 01, 2016, 09:09:22 pm
The time between plays (down over to start of next 25 second clock start) should be 8-12 seconds. The Defense is *ALWAYS* counted before the ball is snapped...you should never have 12 men on the field and not know it before the snap.

That's easier said than done.  If the defense is substituting and players are running in and out (and all over the field), there's a good chance they won't have everything done until after the read for play is blown.  If the offense runs up and snaps the ball quickly, the officials could still be getting their count as the ball is snapped.

Also, try counting 11 players who aren't standing still while you are trying to do 15 other things at the same time.  :)

Rulesman

Which is why HS needs something it will never get. A 40/25 clock.

john3459

Totally agree on the 40/25 clock but we can't get most clock operators to run the simple 25 correctly now......can't imagine the fiasco with a 40/25!!

Rulesman

Which is another reason why licensed officials should be used as clock operators. Most states who do this use it as a training/mentoring position. Imagine trying to get schools to come up with 2 more game fees. Won't happen anytime soon either, especially with the shortage of officials that now exists. 

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