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Stability in 4-A

Started by TIGER101, March 26, 2015, 09:31:11 am

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TIGER101

In the wake of what is going on in towns like Berryville and others we can all name.  I would like to hear opinions on why we all believe there are some schools who just seem to have "it" most every year and why others just keep struggling over and over again in trying to build a program.

I think the first and most important thing is stability at the head coaching position.  I look at a small town like PG.  We as fans don't always have to agree with every call in every situation.  Some will most definitely say that PG's offense is quote " to simple, don't throw it enough, to much old style " end quote.  All could be true, but he has shown stability and stuck with it for 20 plus years.  Now the kids start running his system at the 4th grade level, so by the time they get to him in high school it just make sense.
I know other schools like Stuttgart,  Nashville,  Warren, Malvern, and Pottsville have all been great programs in a consistent year in year out way, and I am sure part will be due to good coaching.  On the other hand you though you need quality parents and kids to make the consistency stay.

sevenof400

Although this factor is outside of the control of the school, one very significant factor that highly impacts a school's success is likely the economy around the city/town in question.  I can't speak to Berryville's situation directly but as I drive through areas of the central north/central part of the state (with schools of various sizes) you can see a good number of towns slowly withering away. 

Avoiding that fate is an integral factor toward a school's success.

Tigerdad2

Danny Abshier , the assistant coaches, and the kids buying in is the only reason PG is so successful . Not many people understand how bad PG was prior to Abshier. He does the most with less. Have you ever stepped into PG's field house? Berryville's facilities are 10 times better

Tigerdad2

Quote from: TIGER101 on March 26, 2015, 09:31:11 am
In the wake of what is going on in towns like Berryville and others we can all name.  I would like to hear opinions on why we all believe there are some schools who just seem to have "it" most every year and why others just keep struggling over and over again in trying to build a program.

I think the first and most important thing is stability at the head coaching position.  I look at a small town like PG.  We as fans don't always have to agree with every call in every situation.  Some will most definitely say that PG's offense is quote " to simple, don't throw it enough, to much old style " end quote.  All could be true, but he has shown stability and stuck with it for 20 plus years.  Now the kids start running his system at the 4th grade level, so by the time they get to him in high school it just make sense.
I know other schools like Stuttgart,  Nashville,  Warren, Malvern, and Pottsville have all been great programs in a consistent year in year out way, and I am sure part will be due to good coaching.  On the other hand you though you need quality parents and kids to make the consistency stay.
Great topic, 101. Hope more people post to give their opinion

Jimbo Morphis

coaching, kids, parents, and town support. i think all 4 are very important.

Romeo

There's several factors that are relevant to a program's success such as kids, parents, community and administration. However, I've always believed that the most important aspect to a program is the head coach. The head coach is basically the CEO of the football program. Just like a regular business CEO, much of the decisions that the head coach makes is crucial to the long term success of the program. I think all coaches have a vision of what they want their program to be when they take a head coaching job. When you inherit a situation such as Bentonville or Greenwood, there's not many changes that need to be made. But when you go into a coaching job such as Waldron or LR Fair, its all about culture change. That's changing the mindset of the kids, changing discipline and accountability, changing the way they practice, workout, eat, etc. Great coaches build great cultures, develop leaders who strengthen the culture, and then reinforce what their culture stands for.

Warren has had a lot of success over the past decade. Much of that can be attributed to Coach Hembree who became coach in 2000. For all of our recent success, Warren hasn't been a tradition power program. Prior to 2001, our last conference title was in 1963. When Coach Hembree took over, he changed the entire culture of the program. In the early 2000s, it was extremely rare to see a seventh grade team run a spread offense, but that's the kind of changes he made. There's a high level of expectations and standards at Warren. That's the culture that has been built, which is why we've had three state championships and eleven conference titles in the past 15 years.

I'm a firm believer that no situation is impossible to fix. But a coach has to able to convince players to buy in to his vision and trust the process. With the situation going on in Camden, its also important to note that coaches need to have support from their administration and community as well.

whippersnapper

I agree with Romeo about no situation is impossible. I do believe some coaches are just THAT good. What I mean is they are Vince Lombardi type that can coach anything and be successful. But I also believe that certain coaches are perfect fits for certain schools, an example is Bryan Rust at Pottsville and Brad Harris in his time at Lincoln. Rust his first year went 7-4 then they moved to 4a struggled a little but got back on track in 2010. Do I really need to say how much Harris was to Lincoln? If he had stayed theyd been the 5 seed at least this past season. Berryville needs to make sure they are bought into the football program as well as the band but right now halftime is more important. Also they need to be in the right schemes on both sides of the ball. If they lack size on the lines then go to an option offense, give the linemen better match ups. Defensively blitz the house, you cant play scared on defense.

Tigerdad2

Quote from: whippersnapper on March 26, 2015, 10:54:11 pm
I agree with Romeo about no situation is impossible. I do believe some coaches are just THAT good. What I mean is they are Vince Lombardi type that can coach anything and be successful. But I also believe that certain coaches are perfect fits for certain schools, an example is Bryan Rust at Pottsville and Brad Harris in his time at Lincoln. Rust his first year went 7-4 then they moved to 4a struggled a little but got back on track in 2010. Do I really need to say how much Harris was to Lincoln? If he had stayed theyd been the 5 seed at least this past season. Berryville needs to make sure they are bought into the football program as well as the band but right now halftime is more important. Also they need to be in the right schemes on both sides of the ball. If they lack size on the lines then go to an option offense, give the linemen better match ups. Defensively blitz the house, you cant play scared on defense.
I agree with a lot of what you said, a option/ Wing-T offense and blitzing makes a huge difference if you're a inferior team. Berryville ran the spread and blitz no one on defense. I agree Harris could have been 5th bc his son would have been QB, but everyone knows he had one good group of kids and then he left

beach bum

March 27, 2015, 02:09:27 pm #8 Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 02:11:02 pm by beach bum
Yeah I don't think one good season classifies as "stability" while at Lincoln... and if he established stability that means you leave the program for the next guy to have similar success. Having the best class in school history and still losing by 23 to your rival does not classify as stability.

phdefense

Quote from: Romeo on March 26, 2015, 07:25:41 pm
There's several factors that are relevant to a program's success such as kids, parents, community and administration. However, I've always believed that the most important aspect to a program is the head coach. The head coach is basically the CEO of the football program. Just like a regular business CEO, much of the decisions that the head coach makes is crucial to the long term success of the program. I think all coaches have a vision of what they want their program to be when they take a head coaching job. When you inherit a situation such as Bentonville or Greenwood, there's not many changes that need to be made. But when you go into a coaching job such as Waldron or LR Fair, its all about culture change. That's changing the mindset of the kids, changing discipline and accountability, changing the way they practice, workout, eat, etc. Great coaches build great cultures, develop leaders who strengthen the culture, and then reinforce what their culture stands for.

Warren has had a lot of success over the past decade. Much of that can be attributed to Coach Hembree who became coach in 2000. For all of our recent success, Warren hasn't been a tradition power program. Prior to 2001, our last conference title was in 1963. When Coach Hembree took over, he changed the entire culture of the program. In the early 2000s, it was extremely rare to see a seventh grade team run a spread offense, but that's the kind of changes he made. There's a high level of expectations and standards at Warren. That's the culture that has been built, which is why we've had three state championships and eleven conference titles in the past 15 years.

I'm a firm believer that no situation is impossible to fix. But a coach has to able to convince players to buy in to his vision and trust the process. With the situation going on in Camden, its also important to note that coaches need to have support from their administration and community as well.
Romeo hits on a key thing. Success is a lot more likely if the the head coach has a role like the CEO of a company. That however is not always the case. It is more common than you might think when the Sr. High runs one thing and the Jr. High runs something completely different.

gameoflife

Stability is so important, but it has to start at the very top and continue all the way down.  You cannot have a great program without many things.  Head Coach is important but so is a very good staff.  That HC needs great support at the top, superintendent, school board, parents, community members.  Talent is essential.  No coaching in the world wins the majority of games with little to no talent.  That is why some historically dominant teams bring home a losing season once in a while, no talent. While Lunney was at SS he had a few really bad years backed up with great ones most of the time.  He didn't change his coaching that one or two bad years, he had much less talent to work with.   Some communities in the 4A level are just more stable, some others have transient populations and that doesn't help to maintain a program.  Malvern was mentioned as a perennially great program but for about 10 years in a row they where terrible. What happened?  Probably a combination of things, less talent, turnover in coaches, change in administration.  Lincoln was a good example, they were good for about 3 seasons under the previous coach but for the first part of that tenure they didn't see much success.  Lincoln was also strong in all the other sports during that same time period, football, basketball, baseball.  They just had a good crop of athletes and it showed in all sports.  Schools like Booneville, have a tradition of winning, of playing a certain way, and a particular scheme on offense and defense.  Like a couple of folks stated, the kids buy in.   PG, 2007-2010 only averaged 5 wins a season over the 4 years, not what they typically expect I'm sure.  Did the HC change how he coached or did the level of talent drop?   The financial support and the community support are key as well.  I think a school district with low expectation within the community in general has a big effect on the way the townspeople look at the school nd the sporting teams.  Good schools have motivated kids, who are usually being highly supported and motivated by parents.  When you see schools without that support it has a negative effect.  Warren found something that fit them, their personality, but also look at some of the college signees from schools such as Warren, D1's, DII kids pretty often.  Others mentioned on here, Pottsville was pretty bad for a long time, they now get lots of Rville transfers, that helps.  Stuttgart is up and down, down right now.  Nashville did really well and hit a snag about 5-6 years back then recently have begun to re-emerge.  So nobody is immune from it. 
Developing leadership helps, weightroom helps, parental support helps.  You have to have a year round program with kids that are going to be there and work. Tradition is the big thing, you build it and you work to maintain it.  Not having stability and tradition will hurt you, whether it is the HC or the Townspeople or the staff with many years at the same school.

beach bum

PG has been at least the 4 seed in the playoffs every year but one since 1995. The only year they didn't was 2010 when the team was starting basically all sophomores. What team wouldn't struggle doing that. Even that year they only lost by a combined 16 points to the 3 playoff teams in front of them in the standings... those sophomores went on to the semis and a 12-1 season as seniors. I think almost all programs would take PG's 2007-2010 down stretch you are referring to if that is as bad as it gets for a program.

Tigerdad2

Quote from: beach bum on March 27, 2015, 07:02:22 pm
PG has been at least the 4 seed in the playoffs every year but one since 1995. The only year they didn't was 2010 when the team was starting basically all sophomores. What team wouldn't struggle doing that. Even that year they only lost by a combined 16 points to the 3 playoff teams in front of them in the standings... those sophomores went on to the semis and a 12-1 season as seniors. I think almost all programs would take PG's 2007-2010 down stretch you are referring to if that is as bad as it gets for a program.
And in 2012 , PG's best RB was 5"4 165 LBS and ran a 4.7. So it wasn't off straight talent

Romeo

You don't necessarily need talent to win at the high school level. You can't really coach talent, however, you can coach discipline, hard work, and team character. Those attributes are a lot more valuable than just having a team with a lot of talent but no discipline and character. Hard work really beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. The 2013 Booneville team is an excellent example.

AirWarren

March 27, 2015, 10:37:08 pm #14 Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:39:33 pm by AirWarren
Warren is just one of those towns that has always found a way to survive the hard times of the southern part of the state. Coupled in with younger people moving back home to raise kids in a great community and the emergence of new corporations in town.

Over the past several years Warren has seen growth with companies growing such as:
1. Ozark poultry company with 269 new jobs created.
2. Armstrong flooring with 249 employees.
3. Bradley county medical center with 259 employees.
4. Southeast arkandas human development center with 280 employees.
5. Potlatch with 141 employees.

Www.bcedcar.com

Warren has always found a way to survive whether it be companies like above and families who own trucking, forestry, farming, physician practices, lawyers, insurance companies, and chicken farmers. Even close proximity to a university and south arkansas community college having a campus in town.

Combine these things with a strong and supportive fanbase, great athletes, and a terrific coach. You have a solid recipe for a strong football program in what some call a dead area of Arkansas. Warren may not have a Starbucks, mall, target, or fancy restaurants in town but the good folks of warren know how to make it.

Romeo

Quote from: AirWarren on March 27, 2015, 10:37:08 pm
Warren is just one of those towns that has always found a way to survive the hard times of the southern part of the state. Coupled in with younger people moving back home to raise kids in a great community and the emergence of new corporations in town.

Over the past several years Warren has seen growth with companies growing such as:
1. Ozark poultry company with 269 new jobs created.
2. Armstrong flooring with 249 employees.
3. Bradley county medical center with 259 employees.
4. Southeast arkandas human development center with 280 employees.
5. Potlatch with 141 employees.

Www.bcedcar.com

Warren has always found a way to survive whether it be companies like above and families who own trucking, forestry, farming, physician practices, lawyers, insurance companies, and chicken farmers. Even close proximity to a university and south arkansas community college having a campus in town.

Combine these things with a strong and supportive fanbase, great athletes, and a terrific coach. You have a solid recipe for a strong football program in what some call a dead area of Arkansas. Warren may not have a Starbucks, mall, target, or fancy restaurants in town but the good folks of warren know how to make it.

Has Blue Rooster already opened, or is it apart of OMP?

AirWarren

I didn't know about that one. A lot of stuff going on at the industrial park so they may be opening a blue rooster plant. I know they are running 269 employees with 20 immediate positions available.

TIGER101

All great points.  You have to have a coach willing to coach the talent he has.  I look at team like Pottsville,  Booneville, and PG.  They stick to a plan and when they have more versatile players they adjust a little.   
Danny Abshier has been at PG 20 plus years.  Of most of the schools we are talking about how long has ech coach been at your school?

TIGER101

One other thing I haven't heard any mention of is the off-season weight and workout programs.  I think this is one of the biggest things that the coaches have to get the kids to buy in to.

Tigerdad2

I Would like to add another point, one poster said the coaches didn't change what they did when they had down seasons. I guarantee Abshier doesn't coach the same way he did in 1997 when PG made it to the semis and the same goes for Lunney in his early days at Southside. Good coaches are constantly changing things year to year. Their is not one exact formula to success. Good coaches are always evolving.
Off- season is another great topic and daily motivation is huge also. Just being able to relate to kids and motivate them will go a long way

sevenof400

Quote from: TIGER101 on March 28, 2015, 10:18:32 am
One other thing I haven't heard any mention of is the off-season weight and workout programs.  I think this is one of the biggest things that the coaches have to get the kids to buy in to.

I don't think this is as important as you do IF the athletes in question are playing other sports.  In the 5A, school tend to have a lot of athletes playing multiple sports and I suspect the 4A does a well. 

When coaches work well together across the various sports to help athletes develop, then you have something special.   

TIGER101

Quote from: sevenof400 on March 28, 2015, 11:13:58 am
Quote from: TIGER101 on March 28, 2015, 10:18:32 am
One other thing I haven't heard any mention of is the off-season weight and workout programs.  I think this is one of the biggest things that the coaches have to get the kids to buy in to.

I don't think this is as important as you do IF the athletes in question are playing other sports.  In the 5A, school tend to have a lot of athletes playing multiple sports and I suspect the 4A does a well. 

When coaches work well together across the various sports to help athletes develop, then you have something special.

I understand what you are saying, and a lot of schools have multiple players playing multiple sports.  With that said , you will NEVER have a successful program without a good off-season and weight program.  Football is about strength, speed, knowledge, technique,  and fundamentals.  These attributes are made during the off season, and sharpened during the season.

Tigerdad2

Quote from: sevenof400 on March 28, 2015, 11:13:58 am
Quote from: TIGER101 on March 28, 2015, 10:18:32 am
One other thing I haven't heard any mention of is the off-season weight and workout programs.  I think this is one of the biggest things that the coaches have to get the kids to buy in to.

I don't think this is as important as you do IF the athletes in question are playing other sports.  In the 5A, school tend to have a lot of athletes playing multiple sports and I suspect the 4A does a well. 

When coaches work well together across the various sports to help athletes develop, then you have something special.
It doesn't matter what sport you play, lifting weights year round will make you better. So weight room is probably 1 of the top 3 keys to success

LakeRat

Quote from: phdefense on March 27, 2015, 03:14:27 pm
Quote from: Romeo on March 26, 2015, 07:25:41 pm
There's several factors that are relevant to a program's success such as kids, parents, community and administration. However, I've always believed that the most important aspect to a program is the head coach. The head coach is basically the CEO of the football program. Just like a regular business CEO, much of the decisions that the head coach makes is crucial to the long term success of the program. I think all coaches have a vision of what they want their program to be when they take a head coaching job. When you inherit a situation such as Bentonville or Greenwood, there's not many changes that need to be made. But when you go into a coaching job such as Waldron or LR Fair, its all about culture change. That's changing the mindset of the kids, changing discipline and accountability, changing the way they practice, workout, eat, etc. Great coaches build great cultures, develop leaders who strengthen the culture, and then reinforce what their culture stands for.

Warren has had a lot of success over the past decade. Much of that can be attributed to Coach Hembree who became coach in 2000. For all of our recent success, Warren hasn't been a tradition power program. Prior to 2001, our last conference title was in 1963. When Coach Hembree took over, he changed the entire culture of the program. In the early 2000s, it was extremely rare to see a seventh grade team run a spread offense, but that's the kind of changes he made. There's a high level of expectations and standards at Warren. That's the culture that has been built, which is why we've had three state championships and eleven conference titles in the past 15 years.

I'm a firm believer that no situation is impossible to fix. But a coach has to able to convince players to buy in to his vision and trust the process. With the situation going on in Camden, its also important to note that coaches need to have support from their administration and community as well.
Romeo hits on a key thing. Success is a lot more likely if the the head coach has a role like the CEO of a company. That however is not always the case. It is more common than you might think when the Sr. High runs one thing and the Jr. High runs something completely different.

I think you hit on a key point... The span of the program has reach beyond the senior high level in order for it to be a "stable" and sustainable program. While the offensive/defensive approach doesn't have to mirror between Jr & Sr high programs... the culture, physical/mental training and player development programs have to be consistent from early middle school through senior high.

I think that's been one of the consistent elements in communities that have a long history of successful programs. Talent ebbs and flows based on various individual players coming through the ranks and make a difference in up and down years. But I believe and have seen where a great Sr High head coach can influence the program from beginning to end... even when coaching changes occur that culture once it's been established for multiple years will continue despite personnel changes.

whippersnapper

Quote from: beach bum on March 27, 2015, 02:09:27 pm
Yeah I don't think one good season classifies as "stability" while at Lincoln... and if he established stability that means you leave the program for the next guy to have similar success. Having the best class in school history and still losing by 23 to your rival does not classify as stability.
But that goes back to what I was saying about certain coaches being right for certain schools. Harris in Lincoln was a perfect fit. Plenty of times a HC change has impacted a season some for the good some for the bad. Harris and his son leave and the mentality drops back to "Stinkin Lincoln".   

TIGER101

LakeRat you are absolutely correct.   Once a little bit of tradition has been introduced it will usually carry-on.   it takes a really bad coaching job to completely destroy it.

gameoflife

March 28, 2015, 09:11:03 pm #26 Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 09:22:55 pm by gameoflife
Quote from: beach bum on March 27, 2015, 07:02:22 pm
PG has been at least the 4 seed in the playoffs every year but one since 1995. The only year they didn't was 2010 when the team was starting basically all sophomores. What team wouldn't struggle doing that. Even that year they only lost by a combined 16 points to the 3 playoff teams in front of them in the standings... those sophomores went on to the semis and a 12-1 season as seniors. I think almost all programs would take PG's 2007-2010 down stretch you are referring to if that is as bad as it gets for a program.
Oh I thought they lost by 35 to Shiloh and 21 to Gravette, were those not in their conference in 2010?

gameoflife

Developing leadership helps, weightroom helps, parental support helps.  You have to have a year round program with kids that are going to be there and work. Tradition is the big thing, you build it and you work to maintain it.
Quote from: TIGER101 on March 28, 2015, 10:18:32 am
One other thing I haven't heard any mention of is the off-season weight and workout programs.  I think this is one of the biggest things that the coaches have to get the kids to buy in to.
Must have missed this part of an earlier post.

Tigerdad2

Quote from: gameoflife on March 28, 2015, 09:11:03 pm
Quote from: beach bum on March 27, 2015, 07:02:22 pm
PG has been at least the 4 seed in the playoffs every year but one since 1995. The only year they didn't was 2010 when the team was starting basically all sophomores. What team wouldn't struggle doing that. Even that year they only lost by a combined 16 points to the 3 playoff teams in front of them in the standings... those sophomores went on to the semis and a 12-1 season as seniors. I think almost all programs would take PG's 2007-2010 down stretch you are referring to if that is as bad as it gets for a program.
Oh I thought they lost by 35 to Shiloh and 21 to Gentry, were those not in their conference in 2010?
35 to Fraziers Shiloh and 4 to Gentry

gameoflife

Sorry I corrected that post, 21 to Gravette.  Just doesn't match up to that 16 total pt for the losses.

gameoflife

And beach bum is correct, lots of schools would like to have that record although it's not something that you would hang your hat on.  What has made PG is success of many years not a 4 game average.

beach bum

In 2010 they lost to the 3 seed Ozark and 5 seed Farmington by 6.... and Gentry by 4 who was the 4 seed. The sophomores didn't know how to finish close games.

gameoflife

Prairie Grove 2010 Season Records
Date   Opponent   Location   Final Result   Legend Icons
2010-09-03   at Lavaca      W, 42 - 29   Prairie Grove vs Lavaca                  
2010-09-10   at OK-Colcord      L, 14 - 42   Prairie Grove vs OK-Colcord                  
2010-09-17   West Fork      W, 14 - 6   Prairie Grove vs West Fork                  
2010-09-24   at Ozark      L, 8 - 14   Prairie Grove vs Ozark   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Ozark               
2010-10-01   Farmington      L, 3 - 9   Prairie Grove vs Farmington   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Farmington               
2010-10-08   at Shiloh Christian      L, 14 - 49   Prairie Grove vs Shiloh Christian   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Shiloh Christian               
2010-10-15   Berryville      W, 42 - 14   Prairie Grove vs Berryville   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Berryville               
2010-10-22   at Pea Ridge      W, 20 - 6   Prairie Grove vs Pea Ridge   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Pea Ridge               
2010-10-29   Gentry      L, 17 - 21   Prairie Grove vs Gentry   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Gentry               
2010-11-05   Gravette      L, 14 - 35   Prairie Grove vs Gravette   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Gravette               

2010 Totals:
Record: 4-6-0   
Conf Record: 2-5-0   
Quote from: beach bum on March 28, 2015, 09:33:15 pm
In 2010 they lost to the 3 seed Ozark and 5 seed Farmington by 6.... and Gentry by 4 who was the 4 seed. The sophomores didn't know how to finish close games.

gameoflife

2-5 in conference? 35 pt loss to Shiloh and 21 pt loss to Gravette, am I missing something?

beach bum

I'd say that is pretty reasonable starting a sophomore at every skill position.

gameoflife

Ok, fine. Obviously missing the point.  You stated they only lost by a combined total of 16 to the three teams ahead of them in the conference.  I was just clearly up that point spread.  35 to Shiloh, 21 to Gravette is 56 points by themselves not including the other losses.

Tigerdad2

To sum it up, they were 16 points away from being a 3 seed that year, the only time they haven't made the playoffs in 20 years. Gentry Berryville and Lincoln would love to have that one bad year in 2010

gameoflife

Quote from: beach bum on March 27, 2015, 07:02:22 pm
PG has been at least the 4 seed in the playoffs every year but one since 1995. The only year they didn't was 2010 when the team was starting basically all sophomores. What team wouldn't struggle doing that. Even that year they only lost by a combined 16 points to the 3 playoff teams in front of them in the standings... those sophomores went on to the semis and a 12-1 season as seniors. I think almost all programs would take PG's 2007-2010 down stretch you are referring to if that is as bad as it gets for a program.
Last time I'll comment on this point.  The statement was a total of 16 points to the 3 teams in front of them in the standings.  But that cant be correct.  Maybe it was poorly phrased, but Shiloh and Gravette were ahead of them and that total alone is 56.  You guys get a little defensive about stuff.

Tigerdad2

I guess if he said the 5 teams by a combined 16, then you would have an argument

Bigredhog1971

Quote from: TIGER101 on March 26, 2015, 09:31:11 am
In the wake of what is going on in towns like Berryville and others we can all name.  I would like to hear opinions on why we all believe there are some schools who just seem to have "it" most every year and why others just keep struggling over and over again in trying to build a program.

I think the first and most important thing is stability at the head coaching position.  I look at a small town like PG.  We as fans don't always have to agree with every call in every situation.  Some will most definitely say that PG's offense is quote " to simple, don't throw it enough, to much old style " end quote.  All could be true, but he has shown stability and stuck with it for 20 plus years.  Now the kids start running his system at the 4th grade level, so by the time they get to him in high school it just make sense.
I know other schools like Stuttgart,  Nashville,  Warren, Malvern, and Pottsville have all been great programs in a consistent year in year out way, and I am sure part will be due to good coaching.  On the other hand you though you need quality parents and kids to make the consistency stay.
im sorry but you shouldn't even put Pottsville in the category with Nashville,Warren,Mallvern and Stuttgart.Not even close to the programs those are!!!!

beach bum

March 29, 2015, 07:06:22 am #40 Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 03:02:40 pm by beach bum
Quote from: gameoflife on March 28, 2015, 10:10:23 pm
Ok, fine. Obviously missing the point.  You stated they only lost by a combined total of 16 to the three teams ahead of them in the conference.  I was just clearly up that point spread.  35 to Shiloh, 21 to Gravette is 56 points by themselves not including the other losses.

I stated the  3 teams in front of them in the standings which were Ozark, Gentry, and Farmington. I am sorry, I should have put "directly" in front of them. Also, wow they lost by 35 to Shiloh who won state that year and made 35 point wins common place for a 3 year stretch. I guess you were dominating competition as a sophomore. PG did not play Colcord, OK in 2010 and have never played them with Abshier as HC. From 2007-2010 they averaged 5 wins, not 4 like you said. 20 wins in 4 seasons is 5 per year. They had "down times" and still won a playoff game one of those years and barely lost another one of those playoff games in that "bad time" by 3 points. They went to the quarters the year prior in 2006 and won a playoff games 4 years running from 2011-2014 now. I would take you serious but not one other small school (2A-4A) in NWA comes close to doing what Abshier has done at PG has done the last 20 years at PG. They can never be Nashville, Warren, Stuttgart, and others but Abshier at least brought respectability to a small town program in NWA. I am no longer debating you after checking your post history and with a person arguing against one of the 4 or 5 top coaches in 4A. All you do is show up occasionally to troll. If you are going to troll I can respect that if you are around consistently at least.

gameoflife

March 29, 2015, 04:42:38 pm #41 Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 04:45:31 pm by gameoflife
Let me admit to a miscalculation, it is 5.  Thats still not impressive by its self.  Did I miss something?  I never said a word toward challenging Abshier or his success. If you think I did you are jumping to conclusions.  From what I know about the man he's not only a good football coach but a good guy.  I'm was merely making comment on the statistics given early in the thread to support what makes or doesn't make a stable program.  You took it personally, you ought not do that.  I don't think you can find a post that will suggest I think otherwise.  I don't believe you should ignore any of the games of that season to make your point. If you choose to so be it, but you need to be more clear when you post, suggesting the post is clear on the 3 teams immediately above them is ignoring an important fact, and ignoring the loss to Gravette is important when you are trying to site margin of victory or defeat. 
Let me make it clear for you.  Absheir, dang good coach with a dang good career at PG.  Your post wasn't about Absheir directly.

gameoflife

Quote from: gameoflife on March 28, 2015, 09:37:01 pm
Prairie Grove 2010 Season Records
Date   Opponent   Location   Final Result   Legend Icons
2010-09-03   at Lavaca      W, 42 - 29   Prairie Grove vs Lavaca                  
2010-09-10   at OK-Colcord      L, 14 - 42   Prairie Grove vs OK-Colcord                  
2010-09-17   West Fork      W, 14 - 6   Prairie Grove vs West Fork                  
2010-09-24   at Ozark      L, 8 - 14   Prairie Grove vs Ozark   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Ozark               
2010-10-01   Farmington      L, 3 - 9   Prairie Grove vs Farmington   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Farmington               
2010-10-08   at Shiloh Christian      L, 14 - 49   Prairie Grove vs Shiloh Christian   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Shiloh Christian               
2010-10-15   Berryville      W, 42 - 14   Prairie Grove vs Berryville   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Berryville               
2010-10-22   at Pea Ridge      W, 20 - 6   Prairie Grove vs Pea Ridge   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Pea Ridge               
2010-10-29   Gentry      L, 17 - 21   Prairie Grove vs Gentry   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Gentry               
2010-11-05   Gravette      L, 14 - 35   Prairie Grove vs Gravette   This was a conference game between Prairie Grove & Gravette               

2010 Totals:
Record: 4-6-0   
Conf Record: 2-5-0   
Quote from: beach bum on March 28, 2015, 09:33:15 pm
In 2010 they lost to the 3 seed Ozark and 5 seed Farmington by 6.... and Gentry by 4 who was the 4 seed. The sophomores didn't know how to finish close games.
This is the schedule according to Fearless.  Contact them and get it fixed.

IPROFB

If Berryville moves up to 5A after next year, how does that change things. I have heard both Huntsville and one other 1-4A school may also move up.

sevenof400

Quote from: IPROFB on March 29, 2015, 07:06:19 pm
If Berryville moves up to 5A after next year, how does that change things. I have heard both Huntsville and one other 1-4A school may also move up.

As Huntsville just returned to 4A after a four year stint in the 5A, they are clearly still on the border of the cut for these classifications.  Berryville is nowhere close to that number - on what do base the conclusion that Berryville would move up? 

Also, if there is anything Huntsville can do to prevent returning to 5A, I suspect they would.  Their experience at 5A was horrible in terms of travel and I can't see how they would want to return to that if there was any way at all to stay in 4A.

In the next classification cycle, you will also have the Sylvan Hills / Jacksonville / PCSSD split and possible remerger effecting the classes above 4A.  To say the least, the numbers will be interesting even without this but with then, even more so.   

Also, you have to factor Monticello into this as well (and Monticello was a 5A school not too long ago as well). 

Tigerdad2

Berryville's enrollment was 529 compared to Huntsville's 653
Also Gravette's was very similar to Berryville , so I don't see Berryville moving up this cycle

HorseFeathers

March 29, 2015, 10:38:09 pm #46 Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 07:30:11 pm by HF
Quote from: Tigerdad2 on March 29, 2015, 08:20:29 pm
Berryville's enrollment was 529 compared to Huntsville's 653
Also Gravette's was very similar to Berryville , so I don't see Berryville moving up this cycle

Where did you pull these numbers from?
The 9-11 average for berryville that the AAA uses is around 464 for the next cycle...Gravette is at 466, and Huntsville is at 492.

Have to take into consideration the smaller schools in 5A as well...Morrilton(the smallest) actually grew this time and is up to 502. And Dequeen(the other smallest school) is right there with them at 503...I think Huntsville might avoid returning to the 5A-West(And I bet they're glad that they do as well..)


sevenof400

Check out the attached PDF from the ADE. 

Grade 9-11 this year currently has Berryville at 500 but remember the count I am referencing may not be the precise number. 

HorseFeathers

Still got to average that number with the 2012-13, and 2013-14 school years....I used the ADE Data Center website for the numbers I generated.

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