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Anyone hear about the AAA firing the head guy for Officials?

Started by Nacho, October 18, 2017, 04:10:33 pm

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Is rulesman going to make it?

Yes
1 (8.3%)
No
5 (41.7%)
Yes, but he's fuming.
2 (16.7%)
Yes, but he's going to become a better rulesman and not be so hot tempered
4 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: October 21, 2017, 01:18:26 pm

cuckoobird


gameoflife

Certainly need to thank all those that officiate high school sports.  Also, need to ask that they do the best possible job they can, not show favoritism, call it right down the middle as they say, and not look as if they are planning a cookout with the coaches of one of he teams and trying to pick a fight with the other.  Not all but certainly some.

Rulesman


Stealthfan

Quote from: sevenof400 on October 19, 2017, 12:38:13 pm
Although Rulesman is more than capable of speaking for himself, I hate reading threads like this where everyone is quick to blame the referee for everything wrong in the game.  The only solutions to this problem are more referees and better training (this applies to all HS sports).  At present, no one is effectively addressing either problem - how do you fix that?

More $$ per game. What are they paid anyway?   It must pay well enough to attract the young intelligent and compensate them well enough for their commitment. 
For a millennial though, that's a pretty steep price.

Chief_Osceola™

Quote from: Stealthfan on October 19, 2017, 10:10:50 pm
More $$ per game. What are they paid anyway?   It must pay well enough to attract the young intelligent and compensate them well enough for their commitment. 
For a millennial though, that's a pretty steep price.

I doubt you find enough millennials that fit that description to fill a crew.

$aintMaximu$

Quote from: Stealthfan on October 19, 2017, 10:10:50 pm
More $$ per game. What are they paid anyway?   It must pay well enough to attract the young intelligent and compensate them well enough for their commitment. 
For a millennial though, that's a pretty steep price.

I would start helping if they pay me in concession stand credits...  I would probably do a high school game for 2 cheeseburgers, 2 Frito pies and 2 Dr. Peppers.... I would request to work every Pea Ridge Home game too...

Lizard47

Well I got some gripes to air. Not going into specifics and definitely not wanting to take away from boonville who played a heck of a game with us tonight. They have earned what they got and I congratulate them. But the officiating was awful, not saying that cause I'm sore that we lost. Just generally disgusted with the level of competence. It distracted from the thrill of such a great game. The only thing that I will name specifically is because of the danger involved. I witnessed at least three unflagged facemasks one of which was with two hands on the helmet and the player was slung to the ground in that manner. The official was not more than 6 yards from the act and witnessed it. Again don't get me wrong, I salute booneville, they fought hard and burned us on a blown coverage to take the lead and the win. Besides I'm sure they have their own issues as their booing was quite loud at times.

OLDSCHOOL82

Ole lizard.  That crew is not known to be a quality crew.  They almost call in waves. 

sevenof400

Quote from: KASH dba The Lumberjack on October 19, 2017, 01:38:27 pm...The only bad ref is a ref that doesn't want to be there but is only there for the money...

I agree with this as there needs to be some sort of self determination to want to do the best job possible. 
I do want to take this opportunity to post this bit of info though:

An appointed committee comprised of AAA Board Members, AAA Officials Committee members and Athletic Directors has approved the following suggested fee schedule for high school officials in Arkansas.
Please note this is a minimum suggested fee scale.

Football Sr. Varsity B‐ Jr. High  --  $65 per official $50 per official

Basketball Sr. Varsity B‐ Jr. High  --  $40 per official $35 per official

Baseball Single Game Doubleheader  --  $45 per umpire $90 per umpire

Softball Single Game Doubleheader  --  $45 per umpire $90 per umpire

Volleyball Best 2 of 3  --  $35 per official     Best 3 of 5  --  $45 per official

Soccer Referee Asst. Ref.  --  $45 per official $30 per official

Track Referee Starter  --  $100 per meet $100 per meet

It is suggested that schools also consider paying mileage.

Brian G

Some schools and conferences pay more just to have consistent refs.

prHOG13

I think we usually pay $100-$125 per official for HS games

Lizard47

Quote from: OLDSCHOOL82 on October 21, 2017, 10:00:29 am
Ole lizard.  That crew is not known to be a quality crew.  They almost call in waves.

It was still an epic game though, wasn't it old school? We really did not play well honestly at times and that's a death sentence in a game like that

OLDSCHOOL82

Lizard it was.  Both teams struggled at times.  Some due to their own fault, some to the opposition.

george7244

If youkeep talking about Rulesman's buddys in the AAA officeyou are going to cause him great consternation. Especially if you are talking about the bald headed one

Nacho

Quote from: george7244 on October 21, 2017, 04:26:22 pm
If youkeep talking about Rulesman's buddys in the AAA officeyou are going to cause him great consternation. Especially if you are talking about the bald headed one
There should be a third thing called LOL or something in addition to slap and clap.

Basketball13

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on October 19, 2017, 11:52:09 pm
I doubt you find enough millennials that fit that description to fill a crew.

22 years old and love it more and more every time I throw on the stripes. With everything that's been posted though I'll give you some of my insight. Most of these guys are old enough to be my dad. I'm lucky enough to be on a crew that actually strives to get better. As in,  we watch our game film after every Friday,  go over rules, and attempt to stay fit enough yo focus on the game. Personally, I enjoy basketball officiating more than football,  but due to the shortage we do have I decided to get a rulebook out and join the other atmosphere.

A lot of the problem with guys improving is that the ones who don't want to aren't forced. The only way to get better and potentially move into NCAA officiating is by going to camp, which these older guys don't do. They don't see the point because "they aren't going to get hired anyway." So they continue to do the bare minimum to get by and be a High school referee.

The problem could be fixed, but honestly, there's a bigger problem when it comes down to game assignments and no state mandated camps.

TBH I think the state should host a referee camp for each individual sport and if you attend that camp you don't have to pay to attend clinic in Hot Springs. Or basically, have some sort of incentive to get guys to come out and get better. There's a lot that really needs looked into but more officials that care would definitely make any transition easier.

Now this DOES NOT apply to every referee, nor am I attempting to say they can't referee,  however; there are definitely issues that need to be addressed.

Side note.. Being young and being a referee is one of the best "career paths" if you want to call it that. I know most posters are older here but I encourage you to have your kids look into officiating, especially through college,  because you never know what may come from it.

Jimbo Morphis

Quote from: cuckoobird on October 19, 2017, 12:28:00 pm
Don't worry nacho. I think rulesman may be one of the guys who are noticed on the field because he sure gets his feelings hurt easy on here when the topic of refs comes up
Heard they fired the guy for answering questions by saying look it up in the rule book.

Oldbadger

A year or two ago I was at a game and there was a guy on the sidelines dressed as an official except he had a black shirt on. He was watching the game and taking notes.  I found out he was an official in training.  Since, I have not seen another.  I thought it as a great idea.

High Voltage

Wow, lots of good points on here. I think officiating has suffered over the last ten to twenty years to be honest. Watch any game, Friday, Saturday or Sunday and the missed or bad calls are rampant. Even with replay they miss calls on a consistent basis.

Rulesman, you shouldn't get so upset with the ribbing man, it's all in fun. ;)

Jimbo Morphis

With the speed of the game there will always be missed calls.

sevenof400

Quote from: High Voltage on October 22, 2017, 02:11:50 am
Wow, lots of good points on here. I think officiating has suffered over the last ten to twenty years to be honest. Watch any game, Friday, Saturday or Sunday and the missed or bad calls are rampant. Even with replay they miss calls on a consistent basis.

So to play the role of contrarian for a moment, you are knowledgeable on the rules High Voltage?

Oldbadger

Well, let me give you an example of a blown call.  I was at the Ashdown/Arkadelphia game last Friday night.  A Badger had run the ball around right end to the pole that signifies a first down.  He ran right past the pole about a yard.  The official placed the ball one yard shy of the pole.  I and all the Badger supporters were livid and let those stripped guys know it too!!!  Well after the game and while watching the replay on HUDL, I saw that the chain guy had moved the pole back off the side of the field so the runner wouldn't hit it and injure himself.  So, the official was right!!  It just goes to show that proximity to the play gives the official a better view--a whole lot better that 75 yards away.  He was right, we were wrong.  We are all human, we make mistakes.  As it says in the Bible--Let he who makes no mistakes throw the first flag--or something like that. As long as these guys are calling consistently and impartially, let the games begin.!!!lol


PercussionMan

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on October 19, 2017, 02:16:47 pm
3 plays in the first half set the tone for the entire game.  The 3rd play from scrimmage a forward pass was ruled a lateral, and was returned for a score.  Then, a touchdown gets called back for a chop block, where the flag didn't come out until our guy was 4 yards into the end zone.  The biggest one though was the long touchdown pass right before halftime.  That one is inexcusable.  Just poor defense by our guys.

I don't think anything in particular above cost us the game, because I don't think we would've gotten enough stops on defense to win.  Our offense moved the ball well, but struggled in the red zone.  Definitely credit Morrilton though - they played well and outplayed us for sure.

After looking at the film, I will agree that the "lateral" should have been ruled an incomplete pass and blown dead....it wasn't the closest I have seen on a debatable call.  It is much tougher for a crew of 5 officials in high school to look at all possibilities than it would be if the crews were 7.  If someone is not looking right down the line when that happens, it's a tough call to make....but, they did miss that one.  As far as the chop block, if it's a chop block, it's a chop block, regardless of when the flag is thrown or what the result of the play is....the officials should call it every time, just like another other infraction.  I understand your frustration, as I have been on that side before (as have most fans), but I just think Morrilton was "on" that night....it wouldn't have mattered much as far as the ultimate outcome.  Our offense has also seen games where they move the ball pretty well and then stall out in the red zone (I believe we turned the ball over on downs inside the red zone about 3-4 times in the first half against Searcy and ended up getting blown out in that game.

DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam

Quote from: B.G. on October 21, 2017, 10:39:49 am
Some schools and conferences pay more just to have consistent refs.

Now that's a slippery slope don't you think?

Chief_Osceola™

Quote from: PercussionMan on October 24, 2017, 11:41:16 am
After looking at the film, I will agree that the "lateral" should have been ruled an incomplete pass and blown dead....it wasn't the closest I have seen on a debatable call.  It is much tougher for a crew of 5 officials in high school to look at all possibilities than it would be if the crews were 7.  If someone is not looking right down the line when that happens, it's a tough call to make....but, they did miss that one.  As far as the chop block, if it's a chop block, it's a chop block, regardless of when the flag is thrown or what the result of the play is....the officials should call it every time, just like another other infraction.  I understand your frustration, as I have been on that side before (as have most fans), but I just think Morrilton was "on" that night....it wouldn't have mattered much as far as the ultimate outcome.  Our offense has also seen games where they move the ball pretty well and then stall out in the red zone (I believe we turned the ball over on downs inside the red zone about 3-4 times in the first half against Searcy and ended up getting blown out in that game.

Honestly, I haven't seen the film, so I don't know if there was a chop block or not.  The timing of when the flag came out was dubious, and frustrating.  I 100% agree that Morrilton played really, really well.  Couple that with our red zone issues and the short end of a 49-28 game is what you get.

PercussionMan

Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on October 25, 2017, 11:15:40 am
Honestly, I haven't seen the film, so I don't know if there was a chop block or not.  The timing of when the flag came out was dubious, and frustrating.  I 100% agree that Morrilton played really, really well.  Couple that with our red zone issues and the short end of a 49-28 game is what you get.

I didn't look for the chop block on film for very long....I just looked for the "lateral" from the third play of the game.  Not to take away any credit from Maumelle, but I don't think they would have scored 28 points on our first string defense....they were pulled when Maumelle had 7 or 14 points.  Also, our red hot offense was pulled as well, so no telling what would have happened had he left both of them out there.

High Voltage

Quote from: sevenof400 on October 22, 2017, 08:45:58 am
So to play the role of contrarian for a moment, you are knowledgeable on the rules High Voltage?
Yes, very much so.


sevenof400


Jack1990


gameoflife

I thought officials were making $90 several years ago?

Nacho

I'm talking to our AD now...we should shoot for $500 a game but only if, well you know.

gameoflife

Heck pay them by the hour.  They would deliberately slow down and maybe do a better job? 

1998billieblue

Although ive never refereed in High School.  I have umpired baseball/softball for 20+ years.  Umpired the 2010 15U World Series.  I ran the chain crew at Monticello and UAM for 15 years.  There is a penalty on EVERY play in football.  There are a lot of good refs who get a bad.  There are several that need to retire because the game has passed them by.  Some of these guys are 65+ years old and in horrible shape. 

I saw a ref the other night who couldn't even bend over a pick the ball up off the ground.  If you are in that bad of physical shape then in no way should you be calling High School football. 

LXXIII

Quote from: gameoflife on October 26, 2017, 01:55:59 pm
I thought officials were making $90 several years ago?

Most schools still pay around $85 to $90 a game. Occasionally, schools pay $100, but it is by no means the norm. Also, someone in a previous post said their schools pay up to $125 a game. I have never seen anyone pay that amount of money (for football) in my seven years as an official.

For those that do not know, AAA and/or AOA do not schedule football games (outside of the playoffs), and most are scheduled by an assignor that has the contract with the conference as a whole (there are exceptions to this). However, there is an association that handles the scheduling for over 70% of the schools in the state of Arkansas, and they have already added a couple new conferences for next year. There is good and bad in this situation, but where it succeeds is in training officials. This association holds an annual camp put on by a NFL and several college officials. They grade game film on a weekly basis. They publish weekly play bulletins. They send out weekly rules quizzes, and they produce weekly training films. This is one of few associations that does this nationally, and I have heard the North Little Rock head coach talk about the positive effect it has on our state's officials (he came from Mississippi and his son still coaches there, and he said we blow them out of the water as far as officiating). So, the help is out there if one is willing to find it.

As someone correctly pointed out above, the largest problem right now is the lack of younger officials like Basketball13 and me (I, too, am a millennial). For instance, my crew consists of two guys in their mid 60s, a guy in his mid 50s (who came out of officiating retirement for our crew), a guy in his late 40s, and me at 30. I try to convince people to join our ranks all the time (quite frankly, I love doing being a referee), but it is hard to convince people take the time out of their lives to do it for little pay and sometimes lots of psychological abuse that comes with the territory (BTW, this does not only come from fans. We feel the pressure of big games just as much as players and fans do).

I'm not trying to be overly dramatic, but officiating across the country in all sports is reaching a critical level because once the older guys like in my crew retire, we will not have enough bodies to fill out crews. In fact, this is happening right now, and that is the cause of some poor officiating (especially at lower levels) because we just have to have warm bodies. So, if you want to see officiating improve, then signup and be the change you wish to see in the game!

Nacho

Quote from: LXXIII on October 31, 2017, 02:26:48 pm
Most schools still pay around $85 to $90 a game. Occasionally, schools pay $100, but it is by no means the norm. Also, someone in a previous post said their schools pay up to $125 a game. I have never seen anyone pay that amount of money (for football) in my seven years as an official.

For those that do not know, AAA and/or AOA do not schedule football games (outside of the playoffs), and most are scheduled by an assignor that has the contract with the conference as a whole (there are exceptions to this). However, there is an association that handles the scheduling for over 70% of the schools in the state of Arkansas, and they have already added a couple new conferences for next year. There is good and bad in this situation, but where it succeeds is in training officials. This association holds an annual camp put on by a NFL and several college officials. They grade game film on a weekly basis. They publish weekly play bulletins. They send out weekly rules quizzes, and they produce weekly training films. This is one of few associations that does this nationally, and I have heard the North Little Rock head coach talk about the positive effect it has on our state's officials (he came from Mississippi and his son still coaches there, and he said we blow them out of the water as far as officiating). So, the help is out there if one is willing to find it.

As someone correctly pointed out above, the largest problem right now is the lack of younger officials like Basketball13 and me (I, too, am a millennial). For instance, my crew consists of two guys in their mid 60s, a guy in his mid 50s (who came out of officiating retirement for our crew), a guy in his late 40s, and me at 30. I try to convince people to join our ranks all the time (quite frankly, I love doing being a referee), but it is hard to convince people take the time out of their lives to do it for little pay and sometimes lots of psychological abuse that comes with the territory (BTW, this does not only come from fans. We feel the pressure of big games just as much as players and fans do).

I'm not trying to be overly dramatic, but officiating across the country in all sports is reaching a critical level because once the older guys like in my crew retire, we will not have enough bodies to fill out crews. In fact, this is happening right now, and that is the cause of some poor officiating (especially at lower levels) because we just have to have warm bodies. So, if you want to see officiating improve, then signup and be the change you wish to see in the game!

Great post.

OLDSCHOOL82

A group of buddies and myself have discussed several times over the years about getting a crew and starting.  Problem is, we like to watch, of course our home town, and specific playoff games if we aren't playing!  I believe it would be a blast, just not sure will ever come to be.

nastynice

Quote from: OLDSCHOOL82 on October 31, 2017, 02:48:18 pm
A group of buddies and myself have discussed several times over the years about getting a crew and starting.  Problem is, we like to watch, of course our home town, and specific playoff games if we aren't playing!  I believe it would be a blast, just not sure will ever come to be.

Yeah, pretty familiar with your crew. 1. You got a little  guy with glasses that would kick every one out of the game in the first half.  2. You have one with anger issues that would fight every coach.  3. One that's "nasty" but doesn't know all the rules, has a short attention span and would try to foot race every kid.   4. You got a short stalky fella that has to pee all the time and talks to every single person he sees.....So that leaves you to keep the game going smoothly.....Come to think of it, this crew will fit right in with all the other crews.

Nacho

Quote from: nastynice on October 31, 2017, 03:57:02 pm
Yeah, pretty familiar with your crew. 1. You got a little  guy with glasses that would kick every one out of the game in the first half.  2. You have one with anger issues that would fight every coach.  3. One that's "nasty" but doesn't know all the rules, has a short attention span and doesn't pay very close attention.  4. You got a short stalky fella that has to pee all the time and talks to every single person he sees.....So that leaves you to keep the game going smoothly.....Come to think of it, this crew will fit right in with all the other crews.

There's not a really heavy-set one that can't bend over to get the ball or run the field so he throws his flag from forty yards back?

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: Nacho on October 31, 2017, 03:59:59 pm
There's not a really heavy-set one that can't bend over to get the ball or run the field so he throws his flag from forty yards back?

There's at least one of those on every crew I think.

nastynice


nastynice

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on October 31, 2017, 04:03:20 pm
There's at least one of those on every crew I think.

There was one at Booneville last week that was funny trying to keep up with the guys. He couldn't bend all the way over so he'd just drop the ball and stop it with his foot to place it.

Nacho

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on October 31, 2017, 04:03:20 pm
There's at least one of those on every crew I think.

it wouldn't let me give you another +1 just so you know

Nacho

Quote from: nastynice on October 31, 2017, 04:06:56 pm
There's one at Booneville last week that was funny trying to keep up with the guys. He couldn't bend all the way over so he'd just drop the ball and stop it with his foot to place it.

that's hilarious. I would tell you about the one we had last week but my  blood pressure might make my head explode. I'll chill now.

OLDSCHOOL82

Quote from: nastynice on October 31, 2017, 03:57:02 pm
Yeah, pretty familiar with your crew. 1. You got a little  guy with glasses that would kick every one out of the game in the first half.  2. You have one with anger issues that would fight every coach.  3. One that's "nasty" but doesn't know all the rules, has a short attention span and would try to foot race every kid.   4. You got a short stalky fella that has to pee all the time and talks to every single person he sees.....So that leaves you to keep the game going smoothly.....Come to think of it, this crew will fit right in with all the other crews.

Pretty much spot on!!

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