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Offline Almatrackster

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If Classifications Were Performance Based
« on: June 25, 2017, 04:59:57 pm »
Some people have talked about this before. Of course, it would never happen and I don't blame anyone for it not ever happening. What I mean is, what if football classifications were based on performance rather than enrollment? I say football because the metric I'm going to use, Calpreps, only does football.

I believe some professional soccer leagues do this in some way?

I've always found the idea interesting and it is sort of the middle of the offseason so I thought it might be a fun thread to look at.

Calpreps.com does a "Dynasty Rating" for each team, nationally. It's a formula and I don't know what it all entails, but what is interesting is that a bunch of high school football junkies in California probably have no bias in Arkansas, so their system would entail no intentional bias towards big schools/small schools in Arkansas.

The ratings I'm going to be using to make these classifications are based off "Last 5 Year" Dynasty Rankings. I don't want to use "All time Dynasty Rankings" (which is really only since 2003) because to reclassify RIGHT NOW, the more recent, the better.

7A
1. Bentonville
2. Fayetteville
3. North Little Rock
4. Pulaski Academy
5. Greenwood
6. Springdale Har-Ber
7. Pine Bluff
8. Bryant
9. Conway
10. Cabot
11. Warren
12. Fort Smith Southside
13. Fort Smith Northside
14. Jonesboro
15. Benton
16. Bentonville West* - Not included in calpreps for lack of existence for 4 years. I put them here.

6A
1. Batesville
2. Wynne
3. Alma
4. Russellville
5. El Dorado
6. Nashville
7. Little Rock Catholic
8. Morrilton
9. Prairie Grove
10. Charleston
11. Little Rock Central
12. Dardanelle
13. Arkadelphia
14. Rogers
15. Springdale
16. Sylvan Hills

5A
1. Lake Hamilton
2. Shiloh Christian
3. Hamburg
4. Rogers Heritage
5. Watson Chapel
6. West Memphis
7. Camden Fairview
8. Little Rock Christian
9. Junction City
10. Booneville
11. Greenbrier
12. Prescott
13. Texarkana
14. Malvern
15. Robinson
16. Pea Ridge
17. Maumelle
18. Forrest City
19. Searcy
20. Gosnell
21. McClellan
22. Siloam Springs
23. Ashdown
24. Van Buren
25. Smackover
26. Pottsville
27. Dollarway
28. Hot Springs Lakeside
29. Star City
30. Hope
31. Harrison
32. Beebe

4A
1. Harding Academy
2. Nettleton
3. Parkview
4. Central Arkansas Christian
5. White Hall
6. Marion
7. Glen Rose
8. Blytheville
9. Mena
10. Valley View
11. Hot Springs
12. Fountain Lake
13. Pocahontas
14. Vilonia
15. Newport
16. Farmington
17. Jacksonville
18. West Helena
19. Des Arc
20. Fordyce
21. Gravette
22. Stuttgart
23. Rison
24. Lamar
25. Heber Springs
26. Sheridan
27. Clinton
28. Mount Ida
29. Highland
30. Dover
31. Crossett
32. Magnolia
33. Lonoke
34. Rivercrest
35. Hoxie
36. Earle
37. Mills
38. England
39. Danville
40. Hector
41. Paris
42. Ozark
43. Centerpoint
44. Dumas
45. Lincoln
46. McCrory
47. DeQueen
48. McGehee

3A
1. Monticello
2. Little Rock Episcopal
3. Mountain Home
4. Hazen
5. Gurdon
6. Conway Christian
7. Paragould
8. Bald Knob
9. Bearden
10. Haskell Harmony Grove
11. Camden Harmony Grove
12. Fouke
13. Mayflower
14. Lavaca
15. Huntsville
16. Cross County
17. Clarksville
18. Atkins
19. Gentry
20. Osceola
21. Jonesboro Westside
22. Batesville Southside
23. East Poinsett County
24. Riverview
25. DeWitt
26. Trumann
27. Bauxite
28. Carlisle
29. Greene County Tech
30. Barton
31. Melbourne
32. West Fork
33. Little Rock Hall
34. Elkins
35. Baptist Prep
36. Dierks
37. Hackett
38. Greenland
39. Cave City
40. Mountain View
41. Mansfield
42. Hampton
43. Magnet Cove
44. Murfreesboro
45. Piggott
46. Berryville
47. Walnut Ridge
48. Brinkley

2A
1. Strong
2. Parkers Chapel
3. Green Forest
4. Mountainburg
5. Lafayette County
6. Waldron
7. Jessieville
8. Marianna
9. Marked Tree
10. Brookland
11. Little Rock Fair
12. Woodlawn
13. Cedarville
14. Subiaco Academy
15. Horatio
16. Salem
17. Hermitage
18. Two Rivers
19. Manila
20. Poyen
21. Mineral Springs
22. Bigelow
23. Cedar Ridge
24. Perryville
25. Foreman
26. Lakeside Lake Village
27. Palestine-Wheatley
28. Genoa Central
29. Harrisburg
30. Spring Hill
31. Corning
32. Augusta
33. Bismarck
34. Rose Bud
35. Quitman
36. Cutter-Morning Star
37. Clarendon
38. Yellville-Summit
39. Magazine
40. Johnson County Westside
41. Marshall
42. Drew Central
43. Western Yell County
44. Marvell
45. Decatur
46. Mountain Pine
47. Rector
48. Midland
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 05:15:03 pm by Almatrackster »

Offline x14113

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2017, 05:32:16 pm »
I've always wanted to try such a form of classification. I would expect a more competitive product overall under this.

Three things need to be worked out before implementation, though:

1) Would these classes be for all interscholastic affairs, or for each individual activity?

2) Promotion-Relegation would need to be used to encourage lower-tier programs to develop. It's implementation will depend on several factors.

3) How will new schools/programs be brought in?

Once those three issues are resolved,  the over experience could be surprising in the long run. Whether anyone wants to go through with it, though...

Offline Almatrackster

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2017, 05:38:30 pm »
I've always wanted to try such a form of classification. I would expect a more competitive product overall under this.

Three things need to be worked out before implementation, though:

1) Would these classes be for all interscholastic affairs, or for each individual activity?

2) Promotion-Relegation would need to be used to encourage lower-tier programs to develop. It's implementation will depend on several factors.

3) How will new schools/programs be brought in?

Once those three issues are resolved,  the over experience could be surprising in the long run. Whether anyone wants to go through with it, though...

You'd almost have to do each individual activity wouldn't you? That would be tough. Coming up with a ranking system for each sport.

I mean if you hypothetically did this based off football, Warren would be in a lot of hurt in every other sport (yes I know they are improving in basketball).

I'm not sure how you'd bring new schools in. They may have to be put in based off where enrollment would put them  in the old system (in this circumstance, the old system would be today's system) and then wait a year or two to re classify them. I guess you could just put them in the bottom sytem, but putting Bentonville West in 2A doesn't seem like the right answer either.

It'd be interesting to see if this would ever even be considered. Does anyone know if something like this has even been talked about at a AAA meeting?

Offline Almatrackster

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2017, 05:42:21 pm »
You also make a good point about promotion-relegation. I'd like to think each coach would not throw a season at the cost of the athletes who only get 3 or 4 seasons of senior high athletes at most.

But if a coach or even underclassmen are having a very average year or even a bad year and they think that throwing the rest of the season could put them down a classification, you might run into some problems.

Offline AirWarren

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2017, 06:18:37 pm »
You'd almost have to do each individual activity wouldn't you? That would be tough. Coming up with a ranking system for each sport.

I mean if you hypothetically did this based off football, Warren would be in a lot of hurt in every other sport (yes I know they are improving in basketball).

I'm not sure how you'd bring new schools in. They may have to be put in based off where enrollment would put them  in the old system (in this circumstance, the old system would be today's system) and then wait a year or two to re classify them. I guess you could just put them in the bottom sytem, but putting Bentonville West in 2A doesn't seem like the right answer either.

It'd be interesting to see if this would ever even be considered. Does anyone know if something like this has even been talked about at a AAA meeting?

Add 30 more kids to Warren's roster, maybe.

Otherwise, we wouldn't withstand a stance.

We are 0-4 against 7a teams(Bryant, Springdale, fayetteville, and southside).

Offline Almatrackster

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2017, 06:42:36 pm »
Add 30 more kids to Warren's roster, maybe.

Otherwise, we wouldn't withstand a stance.

We are 0-4 against 7a teams(Bryant, Springdale, fayetteville, and southside).

Hey that Southside game was a great one, though.

Offline HorseFeathers

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2017, 08:06:17 pm »
Hector in 4a just hurts to think about....

Offline YC

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2017, 08:24:59 pm »

For the small enrollment schools it would be a bloodletting of enormous proportions. It would be like feeding the Christians to the lions.

Since Iím a Charleston fan I will use them as an example.
 
In the past five years they have played 67 games. 52 of those games have been against 3-A teams, 13 against 4-A, and 2 against a 5-A team. Those 2 5-A games were against Clarksville who is not exactly a 5-A juggernaut.

I see two or perhaps three teams they could compete with most years but there is no way they could compete with the remainder of those teams on a yearly basics they would be matched up with in what would be the 6A.   

Offline AirWarren

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2017, 10:00:26 pm »
Hey that Southside game was a great one, though.

Sure was. Had the game until the last drive for southside. Couldn't stop them.

Went toe to toe with Fayetteville. They ended up beating us by 14. Had two ACL blows by two key starters.

Bryant, held with them until they opened it up on us with Zach Cardinal and Lance Parker took it to us.

Went into the 3rd quarter tied with Springdale 14-14. Then Brandon Martinez opened it up on is.

The key to those losses. Depth. We couldn't hold up in the 4th.

Offline pick_DA_EAGLES

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2017, 10:38:55 pm »
Hector in 4a just hurts to think about....

Des Arc too. They are the highest ranked 2A team. We would be struggle against most all of the other teams.

Offline The Zebra Successor

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 01:00:11 am »
Issues: Even though we are argurably the most storied High school athletic program in the state of Arkansas..
Pine Bluff Zebras are in 6A classification...
Which we should be number 1(but not my ranking) with the state title apperances in the last 5 years..

FYI:
Population is going down in pine bluff beware we may be going down to 5A in the coming years.. Which means The Z's would be pulling De La Salle stuff in Arkansas and Pulaski Academy reign would be over!!
If you added White Hall in the coversation but not include Dollarway and Watson Chapel this ranking is flawed and biased..
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 01:04:16 am by The Zebra Successor »

Offline Almatrackster

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 02:23:57 pm »
Zebra Successor, in this hypothetical classifcation, Pine Bluff is 7A.

To all the small school fans concerns, I can definitely see what you're talking about. But I do think you are perhaps missing the forest for the trees.

HF, Hector being in 4A might sound painful, but actually look at the teams and think if Hector could compete. I will say I was surprised to see Des Arc so high, but they are a model of consistent success.

Plus, if you are a small school and you weren't competing at all, the fact that it would be based off performance means you would eventually move down.

It's an interesting idea with a lot of holes.

Offline beach bum

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 06:04:33 pm »
This would be similar to relegation/promotion like what I see when I watch European soccer leagues.... This would actually be fun to see. It would never happen but would be awesome.

Offline KASH dba The Lumberjack

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 04:59:22 pm »
You'd almost have to do each individual activity wouldn't you? That would be tough. Coming up with a ranking system for each sport.

I mean if you hypothetically did this based off football, Warren would be in a lot of hurt in every other sport (yes I know they are improving in basketball).

I'm not sure how you'd bring new schools in. They may have to be put in based off where enrollment would put them  in the old system (in this circumstance, the old system would be today's system) and then wait a year or two to re classify them. I guess you could just put them in the bottom sytem, but putting Bentonville West in 2A doesn't seem like the right answer either.

It'd be interesting to see if this would ever even be considered. Does anyone know if something like this has even been talked about at a AAA meeting?
We improved in basketball this year, also improved in baseball a little bit also. Made it to regionals for the first time in a long time. Also, almost every year we go deep in soccer, made to the state championship this year. Even though football over shadows the other sports, we're not as bad as some people think as an all sports school.

Offline ghostoffootballpast

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 09:15:27 pm »
Very interesting.

Offline Complete Biased PoV

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2017, 07:41:32 pm »
This is an intriguing thought!  I think it could be great for better competition in the larger classes, not sure it could work at all for the smaller classes.  While being a logistics nightmare, you would have to do it for each sport, you can't let one sport dictate where another is positioned.  However, you could keep Boy's and Girl's teams (i.e. Basketball, Soccer, etc) in the same level/classification/conference to help travel, coaching, support staff, and parent logistics.  Of course you have to decide on what metrics to use to determine promotion-relegation, but a points system for season standings shouldn't be too hard to develop. 

IMO the best option would be for the AAA to change the way they divide classifications. 
This would be my idea:
Take the ADE numbers already used and the top 48 schools go into the "promotion-relegation" classification, which would have 3 levels.  So lets say we have 5A-Div 1, 5A-Div 2, and 5A-Div3 each with 16 teams in them.  Then you have the rest of the schools divided as they normally would be among 4A, 3A, 2A, and 1A.  Instead of a 2 year cycle you move to a 4 year cycle.

Offline The Future

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 11:36:57 am »
That 6A class looks pretty interesting

Offline soccerman

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 02:44:50 pm »
I really like this idea! Knowing a lot about football and soccer, I know that across the seas, most leagues have top 3-5 teams get promoted into next league, and bottom 3-5 get relegated.

In England, The Premier League, EFL Championship, EFL League One, and EFL League Two, the bottom three from PL get relegated into Championship, and top three go up. That follows for all of those leagues.

Something that I see a problem with would be new teams, most new teams coming into england start from the bottom up. Also, in those leagues, the teams that finished in 4-8 play a playoffs and the team that wins the playoff gets promoted, that could be something that could keep the excitement of playoffs in high school, while having better performance/talent leagues.

For those smaller schools trying to build up and become a great team, look up AFC Bournemouth, they began an incredible run back in 2005, when they played in the sixth tier in England and made it to the FA Cup Quarter Final.

Again I think this would be an awesome idea to do in the future!!

Offline The_Wesson_Blessin

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 01:29:49 pm »
Here's a crazy thought, instead of having classes be performance based how about we get out of the 18th century and have our playoff system performance based. Make non-conference games actually mean something, stop having 3-7 teams from one conference make the playoffs while 6-4 or 5-5 teams don't. Stop giving each conference a cookie at the end of the year and make each team go out and earn their way in the entire season...not just conference play.

Offline GoatRoper

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 03:11:35 pm »
Here's a crazy thought, instead of having classes be performance based how about we get out of the 18th century and have our playoff system performance based. Make non-conference games actually mean something, stop having 3-7 teams from one conference make the playoffs while 6-4 or 5-5 teams don't. Stop giving each conference a cookie at the end of the year and make each team go out and earn their way in the entire season...not just conference play.

Sounds like you want to reward teams for scheduling cupcakes

Offline beach bum

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 03:26:23 pm »
Sounds like you want to reward teams for scheduling cupcakes

+1

Offline The_Wesson_Blessin

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2017, 02:43:16 am »
Sounds like you want to reward teams for scheduling cupcakes

The exact opposite, go look at Grant Parish, 4A school, always 5-5 because they schedule 1A schools, hardly ever makes the playoffs. The system we have rewards scheduling cupcakes. What incentive is there to schedule any competition?

Offline SUGARTOWN

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2017, 01:38:07 pm »
The exact opposite, go look at Grant Parish, 4A school, always 5-5 because they schedule 1A schools, hardly ever makes the playoffs. The system we have rewards scheduling cupcakes. What incentive is there to schedule any competition?

How does it reward scheduling cupcakes? It doesn't matter who you schedule in the non conference, the playoffs are all based on your conference record.

Offline MR#1

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2017, 09:51:18 am »
Great idea, but not so great when the numbers playing football are less than 50. If you 50 (maybe even 45) or more, then you have a pool large enough so that the majority of players are not playing both ways. Otherwise, it's a handicap for those with fewer numbers.

Offline The_Wesson_Blessin

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2017, 11:00:01 am »
How does it reward scheduling cupcakes? It doesn't matter who you schedule in the non conference, the playoffs are all based on your conference record.
That's exactly it rewards it, it doesn't matter who I schedule what incentive do I have to go and schedule good teams. I guess rewarding cupcake isn't the best term it doesn't create competition. Similar to the old BCS system in college. If I have no incentive during non-conference why would I schedule Alabama when I can schedule Alabama A&T and just when my conference be in?

Offline SUGARTOWN

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2017, 11:21:42 am »
That's exactly it rewards it, it doesn't matter who I schedule what incentive do I have to go and schedule good teams. I guess rewarding cupcake isn't the best term it doesn't create competition. Similar to the old BCS system in college. If I have no incentive during non-conference why would I schedule Alabama when I can schedule Alabama A&T and just when my conference be in?

It doesn't reward OR punish anyone, it has no bearing on the playoffs. What's the alternative? Some sort of computer system that deciphers out a team's full schedule? Yeah, that sounds good.... ::)

Offline noonerricky

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Re: If Classifications Were Performance Based
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2017, 01:08:14 pm »
I like it. However, they would have to classify each sport.

 

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