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Classifications

Started by no mascot, August 01, 2017, 09:52:00 pm

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no mascot

Does anybody else find the humor in the 3a and 4a folks complaining abt the new classification system? 1a has been screwed over forever and I've never heard a single gripe abt it! The timbos and oarks of the world might have 5 boys in an entire grade. They're expected to compete with schools 4 times their size!

Moonshiner

Very true Secret Mascot 😁.   They can go butt a rubber stump.  That's what Bobby D. Hulse would tell em anyway. 😂😂

RATTLER43

Quote from: no mascot on August 01, 2017, 09:52:00 pm
Does anybody else find the humor in the 3a and 4a folks complaining abt the new classification system? 1a has been screwed over forever and I've never heard a single gripe abt it! The timbos and oarks of the world might have 5 boys in an entire grade. They're expected to compete with schools 4 times their size!

I've heard griping from people from all classifications from time to time (the majority of people don't complain much). 7A often times take shots at the old 6A for wanting out of 7A; 6A complaining about rarely being able to compete against the Bentonvilles of the state, and all others using your complaint (same as 6A complaint) about competing against schools 4X the size of their own school.   Just buck up and compete against whatever is thrown at you. It's the reality of life. There is no way to make it equal for all schools.  We cannot make them all the same size or make enough classifications to make all close to the same.  The AAA has actually done a decent job of dividing it out for the most part.  You win some and you lose some; just make sure to be learning from both and using it to help kids prepare for life. 

BTW, how has 1A been mistreated over the years?

no mascot

Quickest and easiest explanation. 1a has to beat a lot more folks in order to win a state championship. Would u rather have to be the best of 16 or the best of 70? Also, there is a larger disproportion of school size in 1a than in any other Classification. This has been recognized and acknowledged by the aaa. They don't want to split back into the old class b because it would increase conference travel. Which is what they say they're trying to avoid in the first place.

no mascot

Who is 4x bentonville's size that'd be in their classification??

RATTLER43

Greenwood is the 32nd largest school according to AAA and at 836 and Bentonville was over 3300 before the split. 

But I am not arguing the disproportionate sizes with you.  There will always be big dogs and small dogs in each classification unless you go to 25+ classifications which makes no sense at all.  I would be completely for the top classification having 32 schools instead of 16. But you cannot take away having big schools and small schools within same classifications.   Greenwood would have zero titles, in my opinion, if they had been in 7A the entire time.  In a one-game scenario yes but going through the 7A-West then playoffs and having to beat Fayetteville and Bentonville or Har-ber - no.   So I see why they put fewer teams in the larger classifications.  Our state just doesn't have the population centers to have 65 6A schools or 7A.   16 is too few for me as well.  But it is not done to be anti 1A.   As I put in another post, I would enjoy winning a title going through 65 than 16.   I just do not see where 1A has been mistreated.


Head Lion

Even though 1A has more team, how many of those are actually really good teams? To win a title, you usually only have to beat 2 good teams & that comes in semis & finals.

Oldref

HL I wont argue that the falloff in quality teams is faster in the lower classifications but I have said for years you can take the top 3 or 4 teams from 1A to 3A or even 4A most years and put them all in a tournament and it would be a great event that anyone could win most years. Earle, Bay, Cedar Ridge, BIC, EPC, Junction City, Emerson, Guy Perkins, Concord have all had great teams in the past number of years that regularly played anyone that would schedule them regardless of classification. Problem is once you get pretty good in small school classifications the larger schools suddenly cant work you in their schedule. :-)

PS..... I am sure I forgot some small schools that have been great in years past. I still remember Parkdale :-)

RATTLER43

Parkdale!  I still have a program from the year they beat WM in Overall.   Still the flagship small school victory beating the big dogs with Michael Cage and Keith Lee.   There are a few of us that still remember.

SackAttack

I forgot to remember but yes parkdale was nails in the day. Altheimer Gould Waldo Stephens Wabbaseka   Grady Plummerville Menifee. The decline of small school basketball saddens the Sack.

Moonshiner

There is class no A football, volleyball or Cross Country. Both have to compete up.  I know, most people don't care.  More class A schools would offer some of these sports if they didn't have to go up against the bigger schools.  Maybe not football, but in Volleyball there isn't even 2A.  So, in my opinion class A gets mistreated there.

Head Lion

Old Ref & MS, I agree with both of your statements. It just irks my you know what, that its about money and pull form the big schools. How any school 4A or less would vote for this is strictly personal reasons. They fall right at the top of their division.

ballmember

Attendance at A tournaments is usually very good.  More excitement and intensity.  Coming from someone that loves Class A basketball.    I attend a lot of games and that is my opinion.  Been to some 3A schools games and big nice gyms and can yawn.  fans don't participate at the these.   those very successful 3a schools have more participation.  at a level don't even have to be a successful program. and it gets exciting.

Head Lion

Quote from: ballmember on August 03, 2017, 02:30:41 pm
Attendance at A tournaments is usually very good.  More excitement and intensity.  Coming from someone that loves Class A basketball.    I attend a lot of games and that is my opinion.  Been to some 3A schools games and big nice gyms and can yawn.  fans don't participate at the these.   those very successful 3a schools have more participation.  at a level don't even have to be a successful program. and it gets exciting.
Come to a Manila/Osceola game, Manila/Rivercrest game.

no mascot

Aren't those rivalry games? I think ballmember is speaking to the fact that any game and not just the rivalries will have more interest from the community at a 1a school than at larger classifications.

bobcats

Quote from: no mascot on August 03, 2017, 10:08:59 pm
Aren't those rivalry games? I think ballmember is speaking to the fact that any game and not just the rivalries will have more interest from the community at a 1a school than at larger classifications.

I think it depends on where you are, football is king at some larger schools.  But in general basketball is still important to many schools in northeast and North central arkansas.  And yes the bigger the gym the harder it is to fill and create the atmosphere of the small school.  Winning doesn't hurt either.

RATTLER43

You hit on it.  Basketball is king at most small schools and the gym is the hub of the community.  Football more so as you move up in school size.  You can find that great atmosphere at any size school but depends on the culture.  Most small schools have that culture.    I also agree that the same amount of people in a small gym creates more "atmosphere" than that same amount in a large gym.

Head Lion

Correct, I know for the last 7 years, that Manila averages over 1150 per home game & one of the best basketball atmospheres in the state for boys games. 95% of the time, Manila will have as many fans on the road as the home team.

not so slim shady

Proposal 9 passed 141-68. The only schools that stood to benefit were the few in each classification that would bump down a class by this proposal. That means the other 90% that voted for it are A #1 ignorant. And, I can't see why any class A school would have ever been in favor. Just my opinion.

no mascot

What are the negatives to the new alignment?

PapaHog

My school didn't bump down and we stand to benefit tremendously.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: no mascot on August 04, 2017, 11:35:46 pm
What are the negatives to the new alignment?

People don't like change

no mascot

It seems to me as if there is a fear of greater competition.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: no mascot on August 05, 2017, 12:30:06 pm
It seems to me as if there is a fear of greater competition.

I like this more than mixed class stuff....at least regular season will mean something

not so slim shady

I do have a few issues with it. Here are a few examples. Jonesboro was the best team in the state last year. They dropped from 6A to 5A. How would you like to be a greenbrier, vilonia, or Beebe and get demoralized when you could've drawn a more traditional 5A school from the NEA like tech or nettleton and actually had a chance. Another example is the predicted conferences. I follow class A in central Arkansas. Splitting up the old league of wview, sacred, guy, mt Vernon, etc makes no sense. The super conf idea was shoved down everyone's throat due to travel, gate, etc. how would you like your children at mt Vernon go to Oark, county line, or Scranton on a Tuesday night. I would like someone to explain to me what everyone other than the smallest 8 to 10 schools in each classification had to gain. An earlier post said this is better than the blended conferences. I'll tell you what's better than that. Before any of it was changed to start with. Aaa is hypocritical and needs to make up their mind.

no mascot

How would you like to be Oark or Mt. Judea and have to play jasper that's 3-4 times your size? That's what's overlooked. But poor 5a has a superiorly talented team come into their class and it's an outrage.

You made my point abt the biggest gripe being a fear of better competition.

Central Ark

Quote from: no mascot on August 06, 2017, 12:48:40 pm
How would you like to be Oark or Mt. Judea and have to play jasper that's 3-4 times your size? That's what's overlooked. But poor 5a has a superiorly talented team come into their class and it's an outrage.

You made my point abt the biggest gripe being a fear of better competition.
Vilonia and Greenbriers biggest gripe was traveling, not competition. In fact, Vilonia has a chance to win a conference championship in the new conference. There's nothing that can be done about Mt Judea and their small size other than consolidation. Now the smallest public 5a school with 670 students will be in the same conference with a school with 1240 students. That's about 280 more male athletes that can be chosen from.

no mascot

1a has been the largest classification by terms of # of schools. It could have been split up into multiple classifications the same way all the other classes were. It's good enough for everybody else but not for the smallest class?

Larger schools will have to travel more if they want to play against like sized schools. Conference or non conference, either one.

Central Ark

There's 100 student difference between the smallest 77 schools (besides the deaf school). There's a 1989 student difference between the largest 77 schools. There's not a big enough enrollment difference in small schools to have multiple classifications.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Central Ark on August 06, 2017, 02:10:12 pm
There's 100 student difference between the smallest 77 schools (besides the deaf school). There's a 1989 student difference between the largest 77 schools. There's not a big enough enrollment difference in small schools to have multiple classifications.

Well like all statistics it's all in how you present them....from top of that 100 to the bottom is a 650% difference in enrollment....from Springdale to middle of 4a(your numbers) is a 550% difference...looks like 1a is playing against greater odds to me?

Central Ark

When you look at it as possible more athletes to choose from, I don't think so.

no mascot

Horse feathers just laid out the percentages  for you. Thanks for doing the research btw. Hard to argue with numbers. At this point you're just putting your fingers in your ears and hollering "I can't hear you!"

I'm sorry if it doesn't fit your narrative, but there are folks who have had a tougher hill to climb but aren't complaining abt it.

Central Ark

But you are complaining about it. I'm just presenting an argument from the other side.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Central Ark on August 06, 2017, 03:14:04 pm
When you look at it as possible more athletes to choose from, I don't think so.

You don't think having(going with 50/50 split here) only 8 males vs 59 males in 3 grades is a big deal in even Fielding a basketball team ? The other one you used would be approximately 200 males vs 1200 males...

Central Ark

Quote from: HorseFeathers on August 06, 2017, 03:24:29 pm
You don't think having(going with 50/50 split here) only 8 males vs 59 males in 3 grades is a big deal in even Fielding a basketball team ? The other one you used would be approximately 200 males vs 1200 males...
it is a big difference. I was pointing out to him why 1a is the largest classification and why the bigger classifications are smaller.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Central Ark on August 06, 2017, 03:31:58 pm

it is a big difference. I was pointing out to him why 1a is the largest classification and why the bigger classifications are smaller.

talent wise maybe....

I think we should just have 1 class.... Maybe 2...

no mascot

I'm not associated with any of the schools I mentioned. I was using them as a point of reference and saying how THEY don't complain about the same system that so many find unfair. There has never been a public outcry from small schools on this topic the way there are from larger schools.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: no mascot on August 06, 2017, 04:08:05 pm
I'm not associated with any of the schools I mentioned. I was using them as a point of reference and saying how THEY don't complain about the same system that so many find unfair. There has never been a public outcry from small schools on this topic the way there are from larger schools.

6a schools have been complaining for the last 20 years...bet they find a way to complain about this one too..

RATTLER43

Quote from: HorseFeathers on August 06, 2017, 03:37:15 pm
talent wise maybe....

I think we should just have 1 class.... Maybe 2...

Just one class?  Elaborate, please. I'm intrigued.

It would solve basically all travel problems.  How many conferences?  How many teams per conference?   Champions only to playoffs in every sport?     

no mascot

I say we just got to a power ranking system and do away with conferences all together. That leaves travel up to the individual district. Just leave the postseason tournaments as they have been, just seeded by the ranking.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: RATTLER43 on August 06, 2017, 06:47:53 pm
Just one class?  Elaborate, please. I'm intrigued.

It would solve basically all travel problems.  How many conferences?  How many teams per conference?   Champions only to playoffs in every sport?     

I was jerking his chain haha...

But just looking at some other states...it seems some let schools set their own mostly permanent mixed classification conferences. Not sure how they do playoffs though

RATTLER43

Just checking.   I like 4 or 5 classes.  No way to solve all issues or make all happy.  With exception of the few schools in top classification, it is pretty close right now. 

dentist15

Quote from: RATTLER43 on August 06, 2017, 09:17:25 pm
Just checking.  I like 4 or 5 classes.  No way to solve all issues or make all happy.  With exception of the few schools in top classification, it is pretty close right now.

Agreed, I thought the competition across the classifications and within each conference was better in the days of 1A-5A.

It seemed to me, at least in regards to the area I live in (River Valley and NWA), that the switch to 7 classifications mostly affected the 3A and larger schools. Until the blended conferences crud, the 2A and 1A conferences in this area were essentially unchanged except for 1 or 2 of the largest 2A schools moving up to 3A (off the top of my head I can think of Cedarville, Greenland, Lavaca, Charleston, and Danville......and Lavaca and Danville have vacillated between 2A and 3A in the days of 7 classifications).

ZacAttack

Quote from: no mascot on August 06, 2017, 06:58:24 pm
I say we just got to a power ranking system and do away with conferences all together. That leaves travel up to the individual district. Just leave the postseason tournaments as they have been, just seeded by the ranking.
I favor keeping the conferences (maybe more to decrease the long road trips) and the distrct and regional tournaments, but I do favor using a power ranking system to seed the state tournament.  In 1A, Guy and Shirley were near the top all season and played for the championship.  ICC, Kirby, Nevada, and Marvell were highly ranked all season too.  One thing that messed up the rating was the blended conference setup, so it was hard to gauge all of the teams.

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