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Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

Started by MDXPHD, December 17, 2015, 03:12:54 pm

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MB Hog

April 28, 2017, 10:30:35 am #950 Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:41:51 am by MB Hog
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 08:05:49 am
Actually if PA wasn't private then it wouldn't exist as there would be no need for a public school in that area. So your premise here doesn't work. Try again.
Actually... you can't have it both ways.  The point from Jessie is that PA wouldn't be very good at football (and probably most sports in general) if it had to pull all of its students from a 6-mile radius.  And he is correct... IF PA is limited to having students/players from within 6 miles who can also afford to attend the school and/or want to pay for it.  Even with financial aid, the cost to the students' families is substantial.

So that is exactly the point... student attendance at PA is not limited by radius, but it IS limited by cost.  Jessie is trying to make an apples-to-apples comparison that it is unfair for PA to be able to have students attend from further away, but he is not accounting for the fact that the majority of students available to PA within a small radius can't afford to go there or just choose not to pay for school when a free education is available in public school.

I guess in Jessie's world (and yours), PA can get students from wherever they want as long as all the athletes live within 6 miles of the school.  Does that sound about right?

To go ahead and take the words out of the mouths of Jessie and others, you might clarify that this controversy is only limited to those athletes who get some sort of financial aid to attend PA.  That you are OK with PA expanding their boundaries beyond 6 miles for any athlete who is paying 100% of his/her own way.

To that I would say:
1) That is discriminatory towards those who want to go to PA (and happen to play sports), but can't afford to pay the full tuition
2) Everyone who goes to public school is getting a form of financial assistance since the funding for those schools comes from everyone's tax dollars, regardless of whether they have students in school or not

All that said...  I'm sure you will find plenty of ways to disagree with me, and that is fine.  I've given my point of view.  You don't have to agree, because I certainly don't expect to be able to change your mind.  But maybe this will make sense to some of the others who are on the fence about it.

Chief_Osceola™

Aren't most of PA's student body within a 6-mile radius of the school anyway?  A six-mile radius north and west of the school is the most affluent area in Little Rock, and I would think that most of the families that send their kids to PA are from those neighborhoods.  The ones that don't go to PA are at LRC or Baptist, with maybe a few that attend Catholic or Episcopal.

SUGARTOWN

April 28, 2017, 10:52:33 am #952 Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:58:10 am by SUGARTOWN
The point of this whole thread IMO is that private schools don't have to play by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students from...and this should not even be debatable. But everywhere you look someone is trying to say that it's not like that.

I'm not one to whine and cry about it, it is what it is and we all have to deal with it, I just wish the private school folks would admit it and stop claiming they don't have certain advantages over public schools when we all know they do.


OB11

If there was no advantage (not necessarily talking athletics, but just to the student overall) then there would be no private schools. Whether it be for religious freedoms, academic focus, etc. the whole point of a private school is to provide something that a public school cannot. Therefore there is an inherent advantage for the student that chooses to go there for whatever the reason.

MB Hog

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 10:52:33 am
The point of this whole thread IMO is that private schools don't have to play by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students from...and this should not even be debatable. But everywhere you look someone is trying to say that it's not like that.

I'm not one to whine and cry about it, it is what it is and we all have to deal with it, I just wish the private school folks would admit it and stop claiming they don't have certain advantages over public schools when we all know they do.
It would be interesting to go back through this thread and count exactly how many times a PA supporter has admitted there are advantages.  My guess on the over / under is 47.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: MB Hog on April 28, 2017, 11:01:52 am
It would be interesting to go back through this thread and count exactly how many times a PA supporter has admitted there are advantages.  My guess on the over / under is 47.

I'll take the under. There aren't 47 PA posters on this entire board.

MB Hog

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 11:07:52 am
I'll take the under. There aren't 47 PA posters on this entire board.
I didn't say how many posters... I said how many times.  Several of us have reiterated that point multiple times, but then we still get the "I just wish someone from PA would admit there are advantages" battle cry.

After making this admission yet again, we start talking about other points in the discussion until... here it comes again... "I just wish someone from PA would admit there are advantages!"

What?  Again?  Fine, there are some advantages.

PA has nice facilities, good fan support, good coaches, etc.  It helps them play better football, but none of that turns Jaren Watkins into Darren McFadden

As with any school, PA does have a few special athletes, but the majority are average athletes who work very hard and are well-coached.  Very few would catch your eye at the mall like elite athletes do.

At the moment, PA enjoys a big advantage in football because of a great coach and a unique system currently in place.  That won't last forever.  But the advantages that PA will always have, that will be the main attraction to the school are a family atmosphere and a top-notch education.  That's why most of the families who send their kids to PA do so... sports is secondary to most of the student body.  And for those that are there first and foremost for football, they are still required to give attention to their education if they want to stay at PA.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 11:07:52 am
I'll take the under. There aren't 47 PA posters on this entire board.
I'm a "PA poster" and have said at least 5 times in this thread that PA has certain inherent advantages that assist at football.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on April 28, 2017, 01:13:57 pm
I'm a "PA poster" and have said at least 5 times in this thread that PA has certain inherent advantages that assist at football.

Ok, so that's 3 of you that's said it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still only 3 people. And if you folks agree about the advantages why is this thread 20 pages long? If you all agree then I guess this thread should be over.

MB Hog

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 01:21:52 pm
Ok, so that's 3 of you that's said it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still only 3 people. And if you folks agree about the advantages why is this thread 20 pages long? If you all agree then I guess this thread should be over.
I'm good with that.  As I said, I've given my opinion.  I don't expect you to ever agree with it.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 01:21:52 pm
Ok, so that's 3 of you that's said it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still only 3 people. And if you folks agree about the advantages why is this thread 20 pages long? If you all agree then I guess this thread should be over.
Because some on here say that PA recruits, and that's false. But this thread is 20 pages long largely from non-PA posts - not PA posters.

MB Hog

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 10:52:33 am
The point of this whole thread IMO is that private schools don't have to play by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students from...and this should not even be debatable. But everywhere you look someone is trying to say that it's not like that.

I'm not one to whine and cry about it, it is what it is and we all have to deal with it, I just wish the private school folks would admit it and stop claiming they don't have certain advantages over public schools when we all know they do.
OK - so I can't resist making one last note.  You mentioned above that the point of this whole thread is about private schools not playing by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students.

I went back to the original couple of posts from MDXPHD to see what the "point of the whole thread" was at the start.  Here is a quote from MDXPHD:

"My point is really this: Yes, we have all agreed that private schools have advantages over public schools in different ways. But, the advantage doesn't make them unstoppable (except for girls soccer, apparently)."

MDXPHD started this thread showing a bunch on numbers that indicate private schools in Arkansas don't actually do that much better in sports, including football, other than soccer.  I don't see anywhere in the original point of the post where it questions where private school get their students.  The conversation eventually morphed to that discussion topic, but that was not the original point of the post.

JessieP

There is an awful lot of confusion. I can't speak to the initial thrust of this thread or other peoples opinion. I can only speak to my point. I've been accused of changing my views, on some issue's I have, but overall my point is the same. Disagree or not let me clarify/reiterate my point.

People say PA wins because of hard work, great coaching and committed players. True, that is why any team on any sport wins. That in and of itself is not why PA has been so dominant. They also have a massive advantage of no limit boundaries. It very simple, there is no debate. When PA takes the field against any Public school team it is not apples to apples. Let me ask this again, if PA was limited to the same land mass area as Batesville or Wynne and had no financial aid would they be as dominant ? 100% no!

I agree with the points other people make, it's about academics or parents right to chose. That's fine. Just stop trying to sell us this "great system, coaches, work ethic" BS. No one outside PA buys it. It's just not true. If you took Kelly, King, Paschel, Hill and their entire staffs. Had them switch schools every year for 4 years. They implemented their system and entire program wherever they went. Who would win it all ? PA. The advantages are too much to consistently overcome.   

MB Hog

Quote from: JessieP on April 28, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
There is an awful lot of confusion. I can't speak to the initial thrust of this thread or other peoples opinion. I can only speak to my point. I've been accused of changing my views, on some issue's I have, but overall my point is the same. Disagree or not let me clarify/reiterate my point.

People say PA wins because of hard work, great coaching and committed players. True, that is why any team on any sport wins. That in and of itself is not why PA has been so dominant. They also have a massive advantage of no limit boundaries. It very simple, there is no debate. When PA takes the field against any Public school team it is not apples to apples. Let me ask this again, if PA was limited to the same land mass area as Batesville or Wynne and had no financial aid would they be as dominant ? 100% no!

I agree with the points other people make, it's about academics or parents right to chose. That's fine. Just stop trying to sell us this "great system, coaches, work ethic" BS. No one outside PA buys it. It's just not true. If you took Kelly, King, Paschel, Hill and their entire staffs. Had them switch schools every year for 4 years. They implemented their system and entire program wherever they went. Who would win it all ? PA. The advantages are too much to consistently overcome.
No biggie to me either way.  I just enjoy watching the games.  I will say that Chief Osceola made a great point earlier... almost all of PA's students, including their football players come from within 6 miles or so of the school. I'm really not even sure who comes from further away, but would be interesting to know.

JessieP

Quote from: MB Hog on April 29, 2017, 10:30:16 am
No biggie to me either way.  I just enjoy watching the games.  I will say that Chief Osceola made a great point earlier... almost all of PA's students, including their football players come from within 6 miles or so of the school. I'm really not even sure who comes from further away, but would be interesting to know.

Not that this is official or binding, it may clarify some confusion. CoachTaylorPA once stated that the majority of PA students live within a 15 mile radius, a small amount are within 25 miles. Let's take the 15 mile radius, that is almost triple the size of other 5A schools. Do you see any advantage there ? I may be redundant (my wife say's I'm stupid so take your pick) but I feel this is an accurate analogy. You have a cooking competition, both Chefs start out at a grocery store to buy their ingredients. One Chef is told he can use any food from isles 1-7. You tell the other Chef he can pick from the entire store. Does anyone have an advantage ?

sevenof400

I get the point you are making here, but:

Quote from: JessieP on April 29, 2017, 03:20:22 pm
Not that this is official or binding, it may clarify some confusion. CoachTaylorPA once stated that the majority of PA students live within a 15 mile radius, a small amount are within 25 miles. Let's take the 15 mile radius, that is almost triple the size of other 5A schools. Do you see any advantage there ? I may be redundant (my wife say's I'm stupid so take your pick) but I feel this is an accurate analogy. You have a cooking competition, both Chefs start out at a grocery store to buy their ingredients. One Chef is told he can use any food from isles 1-7. You tell the other Chef he can pick from the entire store. Does anyone have an advantage ?

I'm not so sure that is the case.  As I consider the size of a good number of the school districts I am familiar with in 5A, I suspect a good number of them draw from a radius approaching (if not exceeding) 15 miles. 

Now to be fair, I don't think any public school has a perfect circle defining its attendance area, but as I think about Greenbrier, Vilonia, Morrilton, Beebe, Batesville, Huntsville, Paragould and GCT I think all of these have a quite large zone from which they pull. 

rpr


JessieP

Quote from: sevenof400 on April 29, 2017, 03:27:43 pm
I get the point you are making here, but:

I'm not so sure that is the case.  As I consider the size of a good number of the school districts I am familiar with in 5A, I suspect a good number of them draw from a radius approaching (if not exceeding) 15 miles. 

Now to be fair, I don't think any public school has a perfect circle defining its attendance area, but as I think about Greenbrier, Vilonia, Morrilton, Beebe, Batesville, Huntsville, Paragould and GCT I think all of these have a quite large zone from which they pull.

I get most my information off the internet, it may very well be flawed. The only school I can speak of with any certainty is Batesville. I am acquaintances with a member of the Batesville school Board. I as him this afternoon what is the farthest distance any BHS students travel to school ? he said Bethesda, a small community nearby. It is by far the farthest distance. Only a handful of students make the commute. It is 7.3 miles. I ask him if it was safe to assume the majority of students live within 6 miles ? yes. I ask "would you say about 70% ?" he chuckled and replied "Oh Heavens no, about 95%". Again, I cannot speak for any other schools.

sevenof400

April 29, 2017, 06:37:09 pm #968 Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:41:20 pm by sevenof400
With respect to Batesville, I was thinking about where I suspect the Southside school zone stops and then drawing a line from that point until you hit the school zone after Batesville going north (wouldn't that be Cave City)?  I realize that is NOT a 15 mile radius from Batesville High School but doesn't the district have a pretty good east - west stretch too? 

But, the more I thought about this.......check this out. 

http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=5e7a6d86fdc94b6f99b430ea4bc43048

That map shows the school districts within Arkansas and should reveal the comparative sizes of the 5A school in terms of the geographical size the district covers.

Look at the size of the Huntsville school district - yow!  Obviously, the size of the district in terms of land does NOT correlate to student body count alone, but I thought this was interesting to add to this.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: JessieP on April 28, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
There is an awful lot of confusion. I can't speak to the initial thrust of this thread or other peoples opinion. I can only speak to my point. I've been accused of changing my views, on some issue's I have, but overall my point is the same. Disagree or not let me clarify/reiterate my point.

People say PA wins because of hard work, great coaching and committed players. True, that is why any team on any sport wins. That in and of itself is not why PA has been so dominant. They also have a massive advantage of no limit boundaries. It very simple, there is no debate. When PA takes the field against any Public school team it is not apples to apples. Let me ask this again, if PA was limited to the same land mass area as Batesville or Wynne and had no financial aid would they be as dominant ? 100% no!

I agree with the points other people make, it's about academics or parents right to chose. That's fine. Just stop trying to sell us this "great system, coaches, work ethic" BS. No one outside PA buys it. It's just not true. If you took Kelly, King, Paschel, Hill and their entire staffs. Had them switch schools every year for 4 years. They implemented their system and entire program wherever they went. Who would win it all ? PA. The advantages are too much to consistently overcome.

If this were true, then why was PA a laughingstock before Kelley, and why can't LRCA (which has every advantage PA has) win?

JessieP

Quote from: sevenof400 on April 29, 2017, 06:37:09 pm
With respect to Batesville, I was thinking about where I suspect the Southside school zone stops and then drawing a line from that point until you hit the school zone after Batesville going north (wouldn't that be Cave City)?  I realize that is NOT a 15 mile radius from Batesville High School but doesn't the district have a pretty good east - west stretch too? 

But, the more I thought about this.......check this out. 

http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=5e7a6d86fdc94b6f99b430ea4bc43048

That map shows the school districts within Arkansas and should reveal the comparative sizes of the 5A school in terms of the geographical size the district covers.

Look at the size of the Huntsville school district - yow!  Obviously, the size of the district in terms of land does NOT correlate to student body count alone, but I thought this was interesting to add to this.

Cave City is 14 miles from Batesville. For the 3 or 4 students caught in no mans land (the middle. Your talking serious sticks) it's a coin toss. They can go to either. Here is an interesting little fact I got from the US Census website: "The Little Rock population density is 1,621.50 people per square mile, which is much higher than the state average density of 55.42 people per square mile and is much higher than the national average density of 82.73 people per square mile." So you can see, a 15 mile radius for PA gives you a slightly bigger pool of potential athletes then Batesville, Wynne, Huntsville or even Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville. Getting back to my 'apples to apples' comparison. In order to make it even, for Batesville's 6 mile radius PA would have to be limited to a .25 mile radius. Are you starting to see the field tilting ?

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: JessieP on April 29, 2017, 11:59:21 pm
Cave City is 14 miles from Batesville. For the 3 or 4 students caught in no mans land (the middle. Your talking serious sticks) it's a coin toss. They can go to either. Here is an interesting little fact I got from the US Census website: "The Little Rock population density is 1,621.50 people per square mile, which is much higher than the state average density of 55.42 people per square mile and is much higher than the national average density of 82.73 people per square mile." So you can see, a 15 mile radius for PA gives you a slightly bigger pool of potential athletes then Batesville, Wynne, Huntsville or even Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville. Getting back to my 'apples to apples' comparison. In order to make it even, for Batesville's 6 mile radius PA would have to be limited to a .25 mile radius. Are you starting to see the field tilting ?
How many high schools are there in Batesville to divide up the players? There are more than 10 in LR.

Again, PA has advantages that most public schools don't have. Winning three titles in a row is still impressive even with those advantages.

MB Hog

Quote from: JessieP on April 29, 2017, 11:59:21 pm
Cave City is 14 miles from Batesville. For the 3 or 4 students caught in no mans land (the middle. Your talking serious sticks) it's a coin toss. They can go to either. Here is an interesting little fact I got from the US Census website: "The Little Rock population density is 1,621.50 people per square mile, which is much higher than the state average density of 55.42 people per square mile and is much higher than the national average density of 82.73 people per square mile." So you can see, a 15 mile radius for PA gives you a slightly bigger pool of potential athletes then Batesville, Wynne, Huntsville or even Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville. Getting back to my 'apples to apples' comparison. In order to make it even, for Batesville's 6 mile radius PA would have to be limited to a .25 mile radius. Are you starting to see the field tilting ?
That's not apples to apples given the majority of those in the Batesville radius WILL GO to Batesville.  The majority of students within 6 miles of PA... or even within .25 miles of PA WILL NOT GO to PA.

The problem here (and this is one of the reasons we can't agree) is there will never be an apples to apples comparison between public schools and private schools in athletics.  Public schools will always get the majority of the students from a given area.  Private schools will always have a wider radius for their student body.  This is necessary in order to survive as a private school that is dependent on consistent incoming tuition to maintain its facilities, faculty, etc. from year to year... regardless of athletics.

You can only compare apples to apples when both schools are apples.  In this case, private schools are an orange... or maybe a lemon to many of you.  ;-)

Private schools are always going to have some advantages (yes, admitting this again), but that doesn't always translate into athletic success, which is why it is tough to find a blanket rule that evens the playing field across the board.

If certain people in the AAA want to create a private school league or some other system to even things out, so be it.  But as far as I know, the PA fans posting on this board have no control over that.  As I've said before, I just enjoy watching the games as a fan.  The system is fun to watch and it is pretty cool to see these kids develop each year.

sevenof400

April 30, 2017, 05:21:37 pm #973 Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 05:32:28 pm by sevenof400
Just to paint the picture many of you have alluded to, the link below represents a six mile radius around PA.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKNkNhbmhsc1Q5Szg/view?usp=sharing

And this picture illustrates the school districts this radius touches (includes)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKeEZLWk9IUnlCSVk/view?usp=sharing

JessieP

Quote from: MB Hog on April 30, 2017, 04:44:26 pm
That's not apples to apples given the majority of those in the Batesville radius WILL GO to Batesville.  The majority of students within 6 miles of PA... or even within .25 miles of PA WILL NOT GO to PA.

The problem here (and this is one of the reasons we can't agree) is there will never be an apples to apples comparison between public schools and private schools in athletics.  Public schools will always get the majority of the students from a given area.  Private schools will always have a wider radius for their student body.  This is necessary in order to survive as a private school that is dependent on consistent incoming tuition to maintain its facilities, faculty, etc. from year to year... regardless of athletics.

You can only compare apples to apples when both schools are apples.  In this case, private schools are an orange... or maybe a lemon to many of you.  ;-)

Private schools are always going to have some advantages (yes, admitting this again), but that doesn't always translate into athletic success, which is why it is tough to find a blanket rule that evens the playing field across the board.

If certain people in the AAA want to create a private school league or some other system to even things out, so be it.  But as far as I know, the PA fans posting on this board have no control over that.  As I've said before, I just enjoy watching the games as a fan.  The system is fun to watch and it is pretty cool to see these kids develop each year.

I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ? 

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: JessieP on April 30, 2017, 08:09:03 pm
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?
Literally every PA poster has admitted that we have inherent advantages. I said it two posts ago.

AirWarren

Something fun to add to the thread. A great game.


CoachTaylorPA

April 30, 2017, 11:12:21 pm #977 Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 11:51:15 pm by CoachTaylorPA
Jesse with all due respect and honor what we do as a school and football program at Pulaski Academy is nothing like Bishop Gorman. Also Jesse I think we all need to respect or recognize some of the great public school football programs in Arkansas as we should,

The Bishop Gorman coaches comments are contextual.  I know several public school programs in Texas compete at a high level every year and have as much pride as anyone in maintaining elite success.  Additionally I think you would find it interesting to look into what Nevada football is like before translating his statements to Arkansas.  Batesville in 2012 and Morrilton in 2013 seemed to me to compete just fine with us.  Jesse do you think that over the years Batesville, Wynne, Greenwood, Fayetteville, Nashville, Bentonville, Camden Fairview, Warren, and LR Central haven't had elite programs ?  Those schools could of all gone to other states and competed with the best teams around.  They had obvious great success in this state.   Most of those aforementioned schools have produced great players that are in college or the NFL.  Additionally most went to multiple championships in a row.  Arkansas high school football is on the rise and most programs are gaining more support from their communities.  This will lead to improvement.

Jesse not all schools are going to be located in rural areas so certain comparisons are not equivalent. Also over the years don't you think that people have moved to Batesvillle from surrounding areas or school districts for academics, quality of community,  and to play in the wonderful athletic program Coach King has developed.  Didn't Batesville's baseball team under Stu Smith win multiple state titles.  Batesville has great facilities and community pride.  Don't sale the pioneers legacy short.  Lastly something to consider how many private schools end up hiring coaches from public schools and public schools hire private school coaches.  Simply another perspective on the discussion at hand. 

Also as a side note I think I saw where you mentioned about if coaches traded programs how team would do etc..... I don't think the pro i or flex bone would function real well at our place.    I certainly think it would be entertaining to watch our players run the triple option after spreading it all these years. However I did enjoy seeing Wynne onside kicking this season.


Quote from: JessieP on April 30, 2017, 08:09:03 pm
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?

MB Hog

Quote from: JessieP on April 30, 2017, 08:09:03 pm
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?
Jessie - I think you and I are establishing some common ground, so I hope you will read my next statement with an open mind and some trust that I am being honest with you.

I don't know anything about the Bishop Gorman program, but it sounds like they are a professed football factory.  Families move in from all over for the chance for their boys to play football there.  In contrast, as discussed many times, a high majority of PA students, football players included, come to PA no later than 6th grade, and a simple majority of them have been at PA since at least 1st grade.  Every year at the Academic Awards Program, they introduce the new Forever Club members.  These are the graduating seniors who have been at PA continuously since at least first grade.  They have every senior who is becoming part of the Forever Club come up on stage at the same time and have them line up across the large stage, two rows deep, for recognition and applause.  There are many more seniors up on the stage than remain in their seats.  It's a pretty neat sight.

On a side note about the kids who come in at 6th grade, this is due to perceived issues with the Little Rock middle schools.  There are generally good options for elementary school in Little Rock, but after that the reputation is not so good.  That's why you see an influx of students to PA at that grade.

Long story short, the kids are coming to PA for the education; not for the football.  I'm sure there are a few that come to PA because of the football program, but that is the exception; not the rule.  And as I've mentioned, those kids still have to keep their grades up (in a very challenging academic environment) to be able to stay at PA.  That's because academics do come first.

In the case of Bishop Gorman, it sounds like they are selling their football program as the main reason to go to school there... in some cases even to move to Nevada for the football program.  For PA, they are selling the education... the good football program is just a plus.

MB Hog

Quote from: sevenof400 on April 30, 2017, 05:21:37 pm
Just to paint the picture many of you have alluded to, the link below represents a six mile radius around PA.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKNkNhbmhsc1Q5Szg/view?usp=sharing

And this picture illustrates the school districts this radius touches (includes)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKeEZLWk9IUnlCSVk/view?usp=sharing
Nice illustration.

JessieP

Late last night I had quite the "egg on my face moment". A lot of my perceived PA's financial advantages were basically shot out of the water as far as Batesville is concerned. There was a very touching post by Price Holmes, the Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach and former Pioneer. He expressed his love and gratitude to Coach Bielema and his lifetime love of the Hogs. That after much prayerful reflection he decided to come home. The new Pioneer strength and conditioning coach is last years Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach. Add that to Charlie Strong, another former Pioneer, saying that with the completion of the new athletic facilities and fieldhouse, Batesville's facilities are second to no one in the state. Oops! maybe I shouldn't have thrown the "you have financial advantages in anyone's face".

And MB Hog and Coach Taylor are correct. Arkansas Football is on the way up, of course our top teams couldn't compete with a Bishop Gorman, Plano East or Mater Dei, but they are a lot closer then they were 10 years ago. I absolutely agree that Bishop Gorman is first and foremost a football factory, they are the Alabama of high school football. "academics ? you mean those rooms the players go to before practice" ?

My whole point, the entire everlovin point, is why does football have a higher percentage of students receiving aid then the general student body ? I acknowledge every other point, I can't get past that one. If there is a reasonable explanation I'll apologize, pack up and go home. I just don't get it.

MB Hog

Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 08:30:08 am
Late last night I had quite the "egg on my face moment". A lot of my perceived PA's financial advantages were basically shot out of the water as far as Batesville is concerned. There was a very touching post by Price Holmes, the Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach and former Pioneer. He expressed his love and gratitude to Coach Bielema and his lifetime love of the Hogs. That after much prayerful reflection he decided to come home. The new Pioneer strength and conditioning coach is last years Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach. Add that to Charlie Strong, another former Pioneer, saying that with the completion of the new athletic facilities and fieldhouse, Batesville's facilities are second to no one in the state. Oops! maybe I shouldn't have thrown the "you have financial advantages in anyone's face".

And MB Hog and Coach Taylor are correct. Arkansas Football is on the way up, of course our top teams couldn't compete with a Bishop Gorman, Plano East or Mater Dei, but they are a lot closer then they were 10 years ago. I absolutely agree that Bishop Gorman is first and foremost a football factory, they are the Alabama of high school football. "academics ? you mean those rooms the players go to before practice" ?

My whole point, the entire everlovin point, is why does football have a higher percentage of students receiving aid then the general student body ? I acknowledge every other point, I can't get past that one. If there is a reasonable explanation I'll apologize, pack up and go home. I just don't get it.
Jessie - I don't have a definite answer, but I can speculate... so here is my guess:

Football and basketball are more socio-economically diverse sports than the others.  You don't see a lot of economically challenged students grow up participating in soccer, golf, tennis, volleyball, swimming, cross-country... and often times, not even baseball.  Basketball at PA probably has a higher percentage receiving aid in some years, but because of the low number of players on the team, those percentages can swing widely from year-to-year.  Football, however, is such a high participation sport that it is always going to have the most diverse population of athletes in the school.  Therefore, you are going to have a higher percentage of more socio-economically challenged students on the team... and thus, receiving aid.  It's not a recruiting thing or a fairness thing... just a number that represents the population.

I don't know this to be fact, but it makes sense to me.  I hope it is logical to you, too.

JessieP

Quote from: MB Hog on May 01, 2017, 08:49:10 am
Jessie - I don't have a definite answer, but I can speculate... so here is my guess:

Football and basketball are more socio-economically diverse sports than the others.  You don't see a lot of economically challenged students grow up participating in soccer, golf, tennis, volleyball, swimming, cross-country... and often times, not even baseball.  Basketball at PA probably has a higher percentage receiving aid in some years, but because of the low number of players on the team, those percentages can swing widely from year-to-year.  Football, however, is such a high participation sport that it is always going to have the most diverse population of athletes in the school.  Therefore, you are going to have a higher percentage of more socio-economically challenged students on the team... and thus, receiving aid.  It's not a recruiting thing or a fairness thing... just a number that represents the population.

I don't know this to be fact, but it makes sense to me.  I hope it is logical to you, too.

Let me process that through my feeble mind. I actually can do the math on that one. It never occurred to me but there is some validity to that point. You don't see a lot of tennis played on the plains of Texas or golf and soccer played in the Los Angeles inner cities.

MB Hog

Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 10:43:19 am
Let me process that through my feeble mind. I actually can do the math on that one. It never occurred to me but there is some validity to that point. You don't see a lot of tennis played on the plains of Texas or golf and soccer played in the Los Angeles inner cities.
You obviously don't have a feeble mind.   :)  Just sharing another point of view.

Bruin Backer

I've lived in the same house in West Little Rock for over 34 years. The driving distance in miles from my house to LRSD high schools: Hall 6.8 (one child attends), Parkview 8.0, Fair 9.5, Central 11.6 (our "assigned" school), McClellan 17.3. For PCSSD schools: Robinson 8.7, Maumelle 12.0, Mills 18.4. Private schools: LRCA 7.3, Catholic 7.5, ESC 9.9. The distance to Pulaski Academy is 4.7 miles. Now for academics. National Merit Semifinalists for all of the above schools: Central 12, Parkview 1, LRCA 2, ECS 2, PA 8.

In other words, if you want to look at a 6 mile radius, there are no other high schools other than PA, public or private, that would meet the criteria, and the only school with comparable academics is 2.47 times farther away. Take the radius out to 15 miles, and all but two schools (one LRSD and one PCSSD) are still within the radius. My situation is similar to a whole lot of families that live west of !-430 in Little Rock. I had the financial ability to make a choice and I, like a lot of families, chose the best academic school, that also happened to be the closest. For those without the same financial ability, it is understandable that they would look at the school with the best academics, that was as close, or closer, to where they lived and had the largest endowment from which financial aid could be obtained.

The 2010 combined population of Fayetteville, Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville is only slightly greater than Little Rock. Bentonville HS (18) and Fayetteville HS (16), had more National Merit Semifinalists than any other Arkansas high school. All have superior athletic programs. Other then Haas Hall (370 students), independent private schools don't exist. If their school districts were in the same shape as Little Rock's, this thread would be talking about the "advantages" that NWA private schools shared with PA and the other LR private schools, and there might be enough schools to have a private school league.

As a private school in LR, PA does have some advantages, most of which are shared by Baptist Prep and Episcopal, which were a combined 1-19 in football last year, but State Champions in basketball. Conway and Cabot share many of the same advantages as the NWA schools, and were a combined 11-14 in football last year. If the "advantages" that each school had were due to the factors put forward by many, one would expect to see excellence in all sports. Since this is clearly not the case, there must be a simpler explanation that can be applied. Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple.



JessieP

"Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple."

It really isn't. But if you believe that, more power to you. It all comes down to one simple fact that has not been disproven or even disputed. Take away financial aid, if you want to play football you foot the bill, 100% of it. How many players would you lose ? still think it's all hard work ? a lot of PA's football success is because of financial aid given to football players, not all of it not even most of it, a lot of it. You take the football players receiving financial aid off the field and Wynne wins that game, by mercy rule. It really is that simple.

MB Hog

Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 06:09:50 pm
"Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple."

It really isn't. But if you believe that, more power to you. It all comes down to one simple fact that has not been disproven or even disputed. Take away financial aid, if you want to play football you foot the bill, 100% of it. How many players would you lose ? still think it's all hard work ? a lot of PA's football success is because of financial aid given to football players, not all of it not even most of it, a lot of it. You take the football players receiving financial aid off the field and Wynne wins that game, by mercy rule. It really is that simple.
Ugh.  My new friend, Jessie.  Please don't get pulled back into arguing.  I admit I don't know who gets what on the team regarding financial aid.  Please don't pretend to know that all the money is going to the stars.  But some examples of some of the recent biggest stars include Hunter Henry and his brothers as well as Will Hefley, Will Hastings, and Luke Jones.  I guarantee none of those guys are receiving financial aid, and none were recruited as football players.  Just because 30+ percent of the football players receive some sort of aid, that doesn't mean they are the stars of the team.

You seemed like you were so close to understanding there are two sides to the story.  Please keep an open mind.

I shouldn't really care, but it is a good school... doing things the right way.  I feel obligated to speak up on its behalf.

JessieP

May 01, 2017, 09:58:10 pm #987 Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 10:01:23 pm by JessieP
Quote from: MB Hog on May 01, 2017, 08:50:54 pm
Ugh.  My new friend, Jessie.  Please don't get pulled back into arguing.  I admit I don't know who gets what on the team regarding financial aid.  Please don't pretend to know that all the money is going to the stars.  But some examples of some of the recent biggest stars include Hunter Henry and his brothers as well as Will Hefley, Will Hastings, and Luke Jones.  I guarantee none of those guys are receiving financial aid, and none were recruited as football players.  Just because 30+ percent of the football players receive some sort of aid, that doesn't mean they are the stars of the team.

You seemed like you were so close to understanding there are two sides to the story.  Please keep an open mind.

I shouldn't really care, but it is a good school... doing things the right way.  I feel obligated to speak up on its behalf.

Everything you said positive is true. I do not believe all the stars are getting help, never said that. I agree, we were making progress (sounds like a labor/management dispute, lol.) I do see some of the points you and others have made. I also said long ago that my first trip to PA was a pleasant surprise. Great fans, no taunting, good sportsmanship on the field and a general mutual respect between the Batesville/PA fans. It had a company picnic feel, a loss but an overall enjoyable experience. I give you all that and more.

The thing that drives me to distraction and gets most the other teams in the state so irritated is an attitude like the one expressed by Bruin Backer. Now I do realize he/she does not speak for PA or it's fans but that arrogant condescending self righteous "we just work harder, we have better coaches, we're just better people. That's just a fact" attitude is exactly the reason that so many people (I assure you, I am far from the only one with these views) have these negative opinions about PA. There are so many positives about PA football and their fans but when someone post that kinda look down our noses crap like BB did it riles up the masses. I'm reminded of that scene from Wall Street, I'm dating myself here, when Gordon Gecko points to a Wall Street type man in a $2,000 suit standing next to a homeless man and say's to Bud Fox "you mean to tell me the difference in those two men is hard work" ?, he then shoots him that "give me a flippin break" look. I'm an educated man, played football beyond high school. Love the game, I spend hours watching on Friday, Saturday and Sunday's. Don't tell me PA's success is solely based on hard work and coaching. Yes that is a very large part of it but it also over simplifies the issue.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 06:09:50 pm
"Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple."

It really isn't. But if you believe that, more power to you. It all comes down to one simple fact that has not been disproven or even disputed. Take away financial aid, if you want to play football you foot the bill, 100% of it. How many players would you lose ? still think it's all hard work ? a lot of PA's football success is because of financial aid given to football players, not all of it not even most of it, a lot of it. You take the football players receiving financial aid off the field and Wynne wins that game, by mercy rule. It really is that simple.
c'mon Jessie. You have said that you don't know who is on financial aid, or how much, etc., yet you know that if they weren't on the field the game would have been 70 points different? Multiple players on that team that will play D1 are not getting a dime for certain; how many D1 players did Wynne have?

SUGARTOWN

May 02, 2017, 08:50:06 am #989 Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:34:24 am by SUGARTOWN
Quote from: Bruin Backer on May 01, 2017, 02:33:53 pm
As a private school in LR, PA does have some advantages, most of which are shared by Baptist Prep and Episcopal, which were a combined 1-19 in football last year, but State Champions in basketball. If the "advantages" that each school had were due to the factors put forward by many, one would expect to see excellence in all sports. Since this is clearly not the case, there must be a simpler explanation that can be applied. Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple.

So it seems all the good football athletes are at PA and the good basketball athletes are at Baptist Prep and Episcopal? You realize what you're saying here don't you?  :D



Or maybe you don't...





JessieP

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 02, 2017, 08:50:06 am
So it seems all the good football athletes are at PA and the good basketball athletes are at Baptist Prep and Episcopal? You realize what you're saying don't you?  :D

Thank you Sugartown. I saw that too. I didn't want to say anything because I'm starting to sound like a one man band. My jaw dropped when I read that. The ironic thing is that it was meant as a defense. Private schools don't recruit, want proof ? the best basketball players go Baptist Prep and Episcopal, the best football players go to PA. I can picture an attorney sitting next to his client testifying before congress, trying to put his hand over the microphone, just a second too late. 

MB Hog

Hi, guys - I think I'm going to sit on the sidelines for a while now.  I've given my opinions and I think they've been received respectfully, which I appreciate.

MB Hog

Bruin Backer

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 02, 2017, 08:50:06 am
So it seems all the good football athletes are at PA and the good basketball athletes are at Baptist Prep and Episcopal? You realize what you're saying here don't you?  :D

I do realize what I said. I did not say that ALL the best football players go to PA, or that ALL the best basketball players go to BP or ECS. What I did say was that if the "advantages" that private schools supposedly enjoyed were all that explained success in a given sport, then you would expect certain schools to be good in all sports, and a school like Mills certainly wouldn't have been the 5A champs in basketball. They are are a perfect example that championships result when good players are matched with good coaching. How anyone read into what I wrote as being proof that Baptist and ECS are now recruiting basketball players like PA recruits football players is beyond me.

The main purpose of the post was to discuss how some athletes, good and bad, end up at a certain school for reasons unrelated to recruiting. I understand that my previous post about driving distances and National Merit Semifinalists probably made little sense to anyone that doesn't live in Little Rock. I wish that choosing a school for my children was as easy to do as it is in Batesville. However, it isn't so simple in Little Rock, which has problems. I-630 has become a dividing line between the haves and the have nots in the city. Affluent families, white and black, live predominantly north of I-630 and west of I-430.

Most "affluent" parents care about their children's education. Most can also read a map. When the map says you would have to drive past several private schools with solid academic credentials to send your child to a school like Hall that is on the State's list of academically distressed schools, or most of the other LRSD high schools that are even farther away, you think twice. Even if your child could get into the AP program at Central, the distance is a problem for a WLR family. My point is that in many cities, like Bentonville and even Batesville, there are families with the means to send their kids to a private school, but don't because they have an adequate public school to choose from. It has nothing to do with arrogance or self-righteousness on the part of PA parents, myself included. It has to do with making choices, given a set of options that none of us really like.   

As MB Hog pointed out, the most difficult school choices in LR occur at the middle and high school level, especially if academics matter the most. The idea that a school's football program matters the most is ridiculous. If that were the case, then why would two star football player have gone to ECS in recent years? If they had the academic qualifications to get into ESC, and they both did, then they had the qualifications to get into PA. Did they get financial aid from ECS? Who knows, and who cares?  Each family made the choice that was best for them, and each young man got a great education AND is attending college on an athletic scholarship.

PA may have a higher percentage of football players on financial aid than that of the student body as a whole. That is a correlation that, in and of itself, tells you very little. One can speculate about it, but there can be many reasons why the correlation exists that have nothing to do with the football program. If the majority of the football players receiving financial aid began receiving financial aid when they started at PA as elementary school students, then it pretty much discounts the "pay to play" conspiracy idea. What about those that began at PA after the sixth grade? What was their motivation? Was it because they just wanted to play football at PA, and were offered financial aid to do so?

To answer the questions, one would first have to know how many football players that began at PA after the sixth grade receive financial aid and how many football players that began at PA after the eight grade are not on financial aid. If one had that information, then the correlation might have some relevance. However, that information, if even available, has not been presented. Therefore, the best one can do is speculate if the correlation infers causation. I can "speculate" that some bright students who had previously been attending a public school wanted to attend an academically oriented high school. I can speculate that many would require financial aid to attend a private school. I can speculate that such aid was available from several private schools, and the student chose PA. I can speculate that, in some cases, because of its larger endowment, only PA was able to offer financial aid. I can even speculate that many of the prospective students were potentially football players.

At this point, I see nothing nefarious in the process. On the other hand, if PA routinely provided financial aid to some students solely on the basis of their perceived potential football skills, but denied aid to other students that were equally qualified, then it would be a serious problem, and I would be just as outraged as anyone else. What I don't agree with is that some tenuous correlation data is sufficient proof of a causal relationship that everyone but PA supporters "knows" to be a fact.

Like JesseP, I am an educated man that played football beyond the high school level, and I apologize to all if my comments seemed condescending. I am simply presenting a different interpretation of what's going on. From experience, I can tell you that there are a whole lot of things much more important than playing football. From experience, I can not fault any family that does whatever it takes, including asking for financial aid, to find the best educational option for their child.  There may be some academically and athletically gifted kids in Little Rock that choose to attend a given public or private school because of its success in a particular sport. There are clearly just as many that choose a particular school despite its lack of success in their sport. I stand by whatever decision a family makes.



CoachTaylorPA

May 02, 2017, 10:36:14 pm #993 Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 10:55:54 pm by CoachTaylorPA
Jessie, I think it goes without saying that the best basketball players in Little Rock are at LRSD and PCSSD schools the vast majority of the time. Also you took my statements about the miles  students live from school a bit out of context.  However I may have been unclear.  Also about the Bishop Gorman post and Arkansas football on the rise... I think you would be surprised at how well the top teams in our state would do against top teams from other states.  Fayeteville was just ranked the #2 athletic program in the nation by maxpreps.  Bentonville a few years back beat South Panola MS.  Harber has defeated one of the best teams in Missouri the past few years.  Fayeteville beat Bishop Dunn out of Dallas last year.  Pine Bluff can line up and play with a lot of states elite teams  as could Jonesboro. I could list more.. Really good football developing all across the state. I would ask this question Batesville is a great program so what in your opinion has led to their success. I'm sure coaching and hard work are on the list.  I would be interested to see if they are similar in principal to not only our program but but the other great programs in our state. 


Quote from: JessieP on May 02, 2017, 09:41:01 am
Thank you Sugartown. I saw that too. I didn't want to say anything because I'm starting to sound like a one man band. My jaw dropped when I read that. The ironic thing is that it was meant as a defense. Private schools don't recruit, want proof ? the best basketball players go Baptist Prep and Episcopal, the best football players go to PA. I can picture an attorney sitting next to his client testifying before congress, trying to put his hand over the microphone, just a second too late.

Red Devil Alum

What I've not seen mentioned much on this 20 page thread about all the advantages that PA has, is the fact that PA has 310 kids in high school, Wynne - 623, Batesville - 660, Sylvan Hills - 1005.  So PA is playing schools two or three times bigger, and the only argument on here is that PA has too big of an advantage.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 08:17:02 am
What I've not seen mentioned much on this 20 page thread about all the advantages that PA has, is the fact that PA has 310 kids in high school, Wynne - 623, Batesville - 660, Sylvan Hills - 1005.  So PA is playing schools two or three times bigger, and the only argument on here is that PA has too big of an advantage.

Once again so the slow ones can understand, those schools are restricted by their respective districts, PA is not. As has been stated before, for example, a student can move into Bryant or Cabot or Maumelle from somewhere else in the state and play for PA. You cannot however, live or move into in Cabot and play for Bryant, or live in Lonoke and play for Sylvan Hills. You have to go to school and play in the district where you reside.

Yes, those schools have more students, but the football team is comprised of the students IN the school district. PA has no district.

I'll agree that PA has great coaching, but that doesn't account for them having the most players go on to play college football than any other school. "Coaching them up" can't totally explain that away. You pointing out that they only have 310 students only exacerbates the point.

I'm not trying to take away from the hard work that the players at PA put in, they have good players, no question about it. But they have inordinately more "good" players than most schools, especially those with only 310 students.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on May 02, 2017, 10:36:14 pm
Jessie, I think it goes without saying that the best basketball players in Little Rock are at LRSD and PCSSD schools the vast majority of the time. Also you took my statements about the miles  students live from school a bit out of context.  However I may have been unclear.  Also about the Bishop Gorman post and Arkansas football on the rise... I think you would be surprised at how well the top teams in our state would do against top teams from other states.  Fayeteville was just ranked the #2 athletic program in the nation by maxpreps.  Bentonville a few years back beat South Panola MS.  Harber has defeated one of the best teams in Missouri the past few years.  Fayeteville beat Bishop Dunn out of Dallas last year.  Pine Bluff can line up and play with a lot of states elite teams  as could Jonesboro. I could list more.. Really good football developing all across the state. I would ask this question Batesville is a great program so what in your opinion has led to their success. I'm sure coaching and hard work are on the list.  I would be interested to see if they are similar in principal to not only our program but but the other great programs in our state.


None of those Arkansas schools you listed have 310 students though. No public school with an enrollment like PA could compete with ANY of those teams.

Man, you guys just keep digging yourselves a bigger hole.  :D

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 08:47:29 am
Once again so the slow ones can understand, those schools are restricted by their respective districts, PA is not. As has been stated before, for example, a student can move into Bryant or Cabot or Maumelle from somewhere else in the state and play for PA. You cannot however, live or move into in Cabot and play for Bryant, or live in Lonoke and play for Sylvan Hills. You have to go to school and play in the district where you reside.

Yes, those schools have more students, but the football team is comprised of the students IN the school district. PA has no district.

I'll agree that PA has great coaching, but that doesn't account for them having the most players go on to play college football than any other school. "Coaching them up" can't totally explain that away. You pointing out that they only have 310 students only exacerbates the point.

I'm not trying to take away from the hard work that the players at PA put in, they have good players, no question about it. But they have inordinately more "good" players than most schools, especially those with only 310 students.
You seem to think that PA's student body is widely dispersed geographically.  But they aren't, it's a small radius. For all of your talk about where the students come from, there are still twice as many that come from Wynne that go to PA. Your point seems to be that PA can draw from anywhere, but they still only get half as many students.

Part of the problem is this, and it can't be fixed. You see "PA" as a football program, but those of us within the school know the kids themselves and have known them for 6, 8 or 12 years. We know where they live, their parents, etc. So you look at the D1 kid and think there's no way he just happened to go to PA, and we remember when he weighed 110 pounds and know that his dad is an accountant.

So go ahead and pick this post apart like all the others. It doesn't really matter.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 09:19:29 am
You seem to think that PA's student body is widely dispersed geographically.  But they aren't, it's a small radius. For all of your talk about where the students come from, there are still twice as many that come from Wynne that go to PA. Your point seems to be that PA can draw from anywhere, but they still only get half as many students.

Part of the problem is this, and it can't be fixed. You see "PA" as a football program, but those of us within the school know the kids themselves and have known them for 6, 8 or 12 years. We know where they live, their parents, etc. So you look at the D1 kid and think there's no way he just happened to go to PA, and we remember when he weighed 110 pounds and know that his dad is an accountant.

So go ahead and pick this post apart like all the others. It doesn't really matter.

Yeah, I guess you're right, that "6 mile radius" around PA is the best in the state for churning out football players. It has to be since that's where "most" of your players come from, right?

That's good news for me as I live in that radius. Maybe my boy will turn into a D1 player when he gets to high school!  :D

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 09:39:24 am
Yeah, I guess you're right, that "6 mile radius" around PA is the best in the state for churning out football players. It has to be since that's where "most" of your players come from, right?

That's good news for me as I live in that radius. Maybe my boy will turn into a D1 player when he gets to high school!  :D
So you don't believe that most that most PA students and players come from within 6 miles of the school? That's objectively true. I can't change what you want to believe.

I tell you what, I will take you on a tour of the school and introduce you to as many players as we can find. You ask them where they are from, how long they've been at PA, etc. and you decide for yourself.

And I hope your son does go to PA. He will get a great education.

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